NationStates Jolt Archive

I apologize if this sounds martyr-ish or whiny. I just want to put it out there because if I don't vent this it's gonna ruin my afternoon and I've got to DM an AD&D game tonight ;)

So a lot of you guys have seen me out there defending Catholics and Evangelicals when I feel like they're being attacked in the various threads that come up around here. I do this because I believe, as a Mormon, that I'm just as much a Christian as they and because of this:

Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship. I am just as ready to die defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination.- Joseph Smith

Now, as I mentioned in another thread there's a Christian themed forum I have been posting on where I've seen a bunch of bashing against prettymuch everybody who isn't an Evangelical Christian. heck, even the Catholic who usually got crap from the others gleefully joins in when somebody else is the target. I was incredibly disappointed by this.. I mean, people who profess to love one another as Jesus Christ taught...

And yeah, I got crap there too for sticking up for Catholics and Mormons. I've been called, a liar because I had the temerity to use the Book of Mormon as a source for my arguments on Mormon Doctrine as opposed to worshiping their sources... some Evangelical author who wrote a book and got a check.

Between that and some of the nonsense I've been given by Evangelicals on this forum... I'm thinking maybe it's better to just say 'to hell with it' and stop trying. I think my problem, honestly, is I had this ideal mental image and it just ain't realistic, apparently.

One thing that brought this into stark contrast was a Mormon-themed forum board where people don't bash. Period. The Mormons there don't bash other religions, and bashing form other religions isn't tolerated. That's what I was hoping to see in other places but now I feel kinda foolish.

Again, forgive me if I come across as whining. I don't mean to sound like a martyr or anything like that it's just kinda hard to accept so I'm venting.

*phew* Ok now I'm ready for some gaming :D

Thank you for your indulgence.

maybe you should look for a different evangelical forum. this one might be the asshole magnet. a different one might do better.

and are you saying you thought that they would be better than WE are when it comes to religion??

maybe you should look for a different evangelical forum. this one might be the asshole magnet. a different one might do better.

and are you saying you thought that they would be better than WE are when it comes to religion??

Yeah.... yanno... I really did.

:racks up the idiot points for the month of July: ;)

maybe you should look for a different evangelical forum. this one might be the asshole magnet. a different one might do better.

I agree with Ash on this. Besides, you're not an asshole and you shouldn't put up with shyte like this, Neo B. It's better if you search for greener pastures.;)

Just by way of clarification... I don't normally go looking for Evangelicals to poke with a stick or anything... That particular forum was about gaming and being as it had a Christian theme I thought the reviews there might be useful in helping me determine what games would be good for my kids.

I agree with Ash on this. Besides, you're not an asshole and you shouldn't put up with shyte like this, Neo B. It's better if you search for greener pastures.;)

Thanks :)

I've found a nice, green Mormon forum pasture I've been on for the last several days and I retreat there when I feel like it's time to put my fist through the monitor :D

Thanks :)

I've found a nice, green Mormon forum pasture I've been on for the last several days and I retreat there when I feel like it's time to put my fist through the monitor :D

Oh, but you have NSG for that.:D

Oh, but you have NSG for that.:D

Oh believe me, there have been times...:p

What do you mean by bashing exactly? That word is used too much these days and its meaning has become a little vague. Do you mean strong criticisms, or just plain insults?

Oh believe me, there have been times...:p

Feeling is mutual.;)

Yeah.... yanno... I really did.

:racks up the idiot points for the month of July: ;)

lol

surely you have been on the net long enough to know that there are assholes everywhere. even (some) people who are angels in real life turn into assholes online. its all part of the system.

What do you mean by bashing exactly? That word is used too much these days and its meaning has become a little vague. Do you mean strong criticisms, or just plain insults?

Good question.

The way I see it, honest criticism is never a bad thing. If somebody has a problem with my beliefs, then hey that's cool. This is why we have religious freedom.

Bashing is when there's a malicious intent behind it, and it is virtually always accompanied by misinformation and distortions. You can always tell because an honest objector will be open to your point of view, while a basher will absolutely not listen to anything you say if it messes with their argument.

For example:

An honest criticism:

Debater: "Well I think your religion is flawed because there can be no more prophets, wheras the Mormons have a Prophet in Salt Lake right now. To me, that's a sign of a false religion"
Me: "Well... The Bible doesn't say there could be no more prophets..."
Debater: "Maybe, but nevertheless it doesn't make sense to me. To each his own, though."
Me: "Fair Enough."

A bash:

Basher: "Well, I have this book here that says you Mormons believe God slept with Mary to conceive Jesus."
Me: "Well I can assure you that isn't true."
Basher: "Well this well known Christian author says you do."
Me: "Well here's the passage in the Book of Mormon that says it isn't."
Basher: "HOW DARE YOU DISMISS MY SOURCE! YOU DO BELIEVE THAT!"
Me: "..."

So a lot of you guys have seen me out there defending Catholics and Evangelicals

I've only seen you fail to do so.

lol

surely you have been on the net long enough to know that there are assholes everywhere. even (some) people who are angels in real life turn into assholes online. its all part of the system.

I have.. But I've always held on to this idea that, especially on a site calling itself a Christian site with a forum rule saying:"1) This is a Christian site, respect our beliefs and we will respect yours. " That there will be assholes but hopefully they'll be in the minority and the others will call them out for being nasty...

But even a site admin was up my butt about it. (In fact, an argument with him inspired the example I posted just now for Hydesland.)

maybe you should look for a different evangelical forum. this one might be the asshole magnet. a different one might do better.

and are you saying you thought that they would be better than WE are when it comes to religion??

I doubt it was just that forum. Does evangellicalism really strike you as an ideology indusive to tollerance of other's beleifs?

I prefer forums with a more diverse membership. Sure, you'll get a lot of people you don't agree with, but no one view point will completely dominate over and abuse all others.

I've only seen you fail to do so.

Perhaps because I don't personally believe in either Caholicism or Evangelical Christianity...

Debater: "Well I think your religion is flawed because there can be no more prophets, wheras the Mormons have a Prophet in Salt Lake right now. To me, that's a sign of a false religion"
Me: "Well... The Bible doesn't say there could be no more prophets..."
Debater: "Maybe, but nevertheless it doesn't make sense to me. To each his own, though."
Me: "Fair Enough."

A bash:

Basher: "Well, I have this book here that says you Mormons believe God slept with Mary to conceive Jesus."
Me: "Well I can assure you that isn't true."
Basher: "Well this well known Christian author says you do."
Me: "Well here's the passage in the Book of Mormon that says it isn't."
Basher: "HOW DARE YOU DISMISS MY SOURCE! YOU DO BELIEVE THAT!"
Me: "..."

I'm not seeing a significant difference other than that the first person gives up too easily and the second person is rubbish at debating. I think its quite easy however to tell that this guy has nothing but malicious intent in the second example because of his stubbornness, but in reality I don't think its always that easy to tell. Maybe you could show some examples/quotes from the actual forum you visit.

I doubt it was just that forum. Does evangellicalism really strike you as an ideology indusive to tollerance of other's beleifs?

I prefer forums with a more diverse membership. Sure, you'll get a lot of people you don't agree with, but no one view point will completely dominate over and abuse all others.

You know, ideally, Evangelism SHOULD. I mean, for a bunch of people claiming to emulate the Savior what else would one expect?

The trouble is, many justify it by pointing to examples in the New Testament where Pharisees or their like became snarky or tried to trick Jesus with their goofball arguments, and once in a while the Lord had to perform the equivalent of a rhetorical choke slam on them.

The difference was that Jesus NEVER got nasty when dealing with people of good conscience, even when they believed things other than His teachings. (Like the Roman Centurion who was certainly a Pagan yet Christ commended him for his faith.)

what is it with Mormon undies...seriously:confused:

The difference was that Jesus NEVER got nasty

unless you changed money...

I'm not seeing a significant difference other than that the first person gives up too easily and the second person is rubbish at debating. I think its quite easy however to tell that this guy has nothing but malicious intent in the second example because of his stubbornness, but in reality I don't think its always that easy to tell. Maybe you could show some examples/quotes from the actual forum you visit.

You've hit the nail on the head. Malicious intent. Maybe later on I'll copy and paste some examples over but I'm not sure I want to get into beating up on that particular forum.

I have.. But I've always held on to this idea that, especially on a site calling itself a Christian site with a forum rule saying:"1) This is a Christian site, respect our beliefs and we will respect yours. " That there will be assholes but hopefully they'll be in the minority and the others will call them out for being nasty...

But even a site admin was up my butt about it. (In fact, an argument with him inspired the example I posted just now for Hydesland.)

i think you are naive. you are supposing that "christian" means ALL christians and not "those christians that we support as true christians"

seems to me that many evangelicals cut their teeth on "catholics arent christians because the pope is the antichrist" and "mormons are deluded polygamous murderous heretics who will burn in hell" with the mormons getting it worse not only because of the book of mormon but also because mormon missionaries are more successful than other groups at getting converts from the evangelical community.

what is it with Mormon undies...seriously:confused:

Here ya go. (http://www.mormonwiki.com/Mormon_undergarments)

Mormons are not unique in the wearing of special clothing for religious purposes. Perhaps the most well-known example is the yarmulke, which is worn at special times by many Jewish men or at all times by devout orthodox Jews. Jews also wear the tzitzit, an undergarment with fringes tied in 613 knots symbolic of the laws of Moses. The Mormon garment is symbolic in much the same way. Similarly, in some religions a minister or priest will wear a special collar that has religious significance, or nuns may wear special clothing that signifies the religious order to which they belong. In all cases the special clothing reflects the religious conviction of the wearer. Many world religions require their members to wear certain clothes either all the time or temporarily (for example during religious services or during special ceremonies such as marriage).


unless you changed money...

Hey man you left off the end of my quote. I said He never got nasty with people of good conscience.

i think you are naive. you are supposing that "christian" means ALL christians and not "those christians that we support as true christians"

Yah I just try to avoid thinking that way because I don't want to commit a 'No True Scotsman' fallacy in my own mind...


seems to me that many evangelicals cut their teeth on "catholics arent christians because the pope is the antichrist" and "mormons are deluded polygamous murderous heretics who will burn in hell" with the mormons getting it worse not only because of the book of mormon but also because mormon missionaries are more successful than other groups at getting converts from the evangelical community.

Makes sense.

Here ya go. (http://www.mormonwiki.com/Mormon_undergarments)

is it really as unflattering as the pictures make it out to be?

Hey man you left off the end of my quote. I said He never got nasty with people of good conscience.

but I change my money all the time! :eek:

this must be why everyone gets skin cancer on holiday

Yah I just try to avoid thinking that way because I don't want to commit a 'No True Scotsman' fallacy in my own mind...


its a good thing to keep an open mind, eh?

its a good thing to keep an open mind, eh?

Abso-fraggin'-lutely!

is it really as unflattering as the pictures make it out to be?

Well I dunno.. It's not like I pose in front of a mirror...


but I change my money all the time! :eek:

this must be why everyone gets skin cancer on holiday

um...?

I apologize if this sounds martyr-ish or whiny. I just want to put it out there because if I don't vent this it's gonna ruin my afternoon and I've got to DM an AD&D game tonight ;)

So a lot of you guys have seen me out there defending Catholics and Evangelicals when I feel like they're being attacked in the various threads that come up around here. I do this because I believe, as a Mormon, that I'm just as much a Christian as they and because of this:



Now, as I mentioned in another thread there's a Christian themed forum I have been posting on where I've seen a bunch of bashing against prettymuch everybody who isn't an Evangelical Christian. heck, even the Catholic who usually got crap from the others gleefully joins in when somebody else is the target. I was incredibly disappointed by this.. I mean, people who profess to love one another as Jesus Christ taught...

And yeah, I got crap there too for sticking up for Catholics and Mormons. I've been called, a liar because I had the temerity to use the Book of Mormon as a source for my arguments on Mormon Doctrine as opposed to worshiping their sources... some Evangelical author who wrote a book and got a check.

Between that and some of the nonsense I've been given by Evangelicals on this forum... I'm thinking maybe it's better to just say 'to hell with it' and stop trying. I think my problem, honestly, is I had this ideal mental image and it just ain't realistic, apparently.

One thing that brought this into stark contrast was a Mormon-themed forum board where people don't bash. Period. The Mormons there don't bash other religions, and bashing form other religions isn't tolerated. That's what I was hoping to see in other places but now I feel kinda foolish.

Again, forgive me if I come across as whining. I don't mean to sound like a martyr or anything like that it's just kinda hard to accept so I'm venting.

*phew* Ok now I'm ready for some gaming :D

Thank you for your indulgence.

Not to stir up anything with you, because I truly like you, but have you ever heard about what mormons did in Nauvoo? Tried to kill member of a evangelical church there, and burn the place down, iirc. Just saying, its not just evangelicals (which do get annoying), or even christians as a whole. People will be divisive in almost anything, no matter the ideology, creed, or group.

Not to stir up anything with you, because I truly like you, but have you ever heard about what mormons did in Nauvoo? Tried to kill member of a evangelical church there, and burn the place down, iirc. Just saying, its not just evangelicals (which do get annoying), or even christians as a whole. People will be divisive in almost anything, no matter the ideology, creed, or group.

I appreciate you're not trying to be like those jerks that I'm talking about.

And you're right that there's divisiveness everywhere (Although if you want to talk about Nauvoo, I can regale you with a few tales of angry m obs and Mormons having to flee across a not completely frozen river to get away even as they had to watch their sacred Temple burned to the ground.)

But that's not the issue. History is what it is, and we all have to live with it, both good and bad. The thing is I feel like every time I try to reach out and say "Hey, I know we have very different doctrines but can we at least agree on how oawesome Jesus is and build on that?" I usually get something along the lines of "But you worship a false Jesus!!!!!" and all rationality exits stage left.

And it's that sort of thing that comes to mind when I'm on a forum like this defending Evangelical or Catholic Christians over an issue that has nothing to do with Mormons.

I've once been accused of "leaping in front of the bullet" and I admit, it's true. I guess I had hoped that by doing so I could prove the very point the Prophet Joseph Smith made when he said "Christians should cease wrangling and contending with each other, and cultivate the principles of union and friendship. I am just as ready to die defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination.-"

But I guess that's what made him such a great man and definitely far more patient than I am. I'm certainly going to always stick up for the rights of others, but when it comes to forums and bashers and the like, I just don't feel it anymore.

Yah I just try to avoid thinking that way because I don't want to commit a 'No True Scotsman' fallacy in my own mind...

Ah, but you avoiding it doesn't mean others will...

=)

I think, when you're a member of a less common/accepted denomination or even not a member of one at all, it's easier to remember that there are many Christian beliefs out there and that there are many disagreements. It's easier when you're different to be able to say, "You say you're a Christian, and I accept that, even though we don't agree on the particulars."

It's also easier if you've been exposed to them before. At the risk of sounding insulting (I'm not trying, I swear!), I think many evangelicals are very childlike in their faith, and not in the good way. I think many have never really been exposed to anything but evangelical teachings and thus have trouble imagining that something different isn't just wrong.

I say childlike because I remember the first time I knowingly met a non-Christian. I was young and had only been exposed to Christianity, so I had trouble understanding that there was anything different. I looked straight at a Jewish man and said something along the lines of "But you have to believe that Jesus is your savior!" It never crossed my mind that I was being rather rude. Luckily, when dealing with children, most people won't take offense to something like that. It's different when it's an adult doing it.

Not that anyone is completely immune to this sort of thing, of course. You see it quite often when religious people first talk to an atheist. "But aren't you afraid of Hell?" is a common question. The answer, of course, should be obvious. Why would someone who doesn't believe in God, Heaven, and Hell be afraid of any of them?

Again, forgive me if I come across as whining. I don't mean to sound like a martyr or anything like that it's just kinda hard to accept so I'm venting.

*phew* Ok now I'm ready for some gaming :D

Thank you for your indulgence.

some people deserve defence, others paint the target on themselves.

don't kill your party too quickly... they won't learn nuthin then.

some people deserve defence, others paint the target on themselves.

don't kill your party too quickly... they won't learn nuthin then.

And remember, just adding a thought to JuNii's words, never lose your cool. One of the aspects of your online personality I respect the most is your ability to, kinda keep your cool and, at least not with me, the fact you're not that judgmental. Perhaps that's why, although we're never on the same page, we can debate, ruthlessly even, and always end in firendly terms. Don't change that, eh?;)

Ah, but you avoiding it doesn't mean others will...

=)


You ain't kiddin'


I think, when you're a member of a less common/accepted denomination or even not a member of one at all, it's easier to remember that there are many Christian beliefs out there and that there are many disagreements. It's easier when you're different to be able to say, "You say you're a Christian, and I accept that, even though we don't agree on the particulars."

It's also easier if you've been exposed to them before. At the risk of sounding insulting (I'm not trying, I swear!), I think many evangelicals are very childlike in their faith, and not in the good way. I think many have never really been exposed to anything but evangelical teachings and thus have trouble imagining that something different isn't just wrong.

I say childlike because I remember the first time I knowingly met a non-Christian. I was young and had only been exposed to Christianity, so I had trouble understanding that there was anything different. I looked straight at a Jewish man and said something along the lines of "But you have to believe that Jesus is your savior!" It never crossed my mind that I was being rather rude. Luckily, when dealing with children, most people won't take offense to something like that. It's different when it's an adult doing it.

Not that anyone is completely immune to this sort of thing, of course. You see it quite often when religious people first talk to an atheist. "But aren't you afraid of Hell?" is a common question. The answer, of course, should be obvious. Why would someone who doesn't believe in God, Heaven, and Hell be afraid of any of them?

You know it's funny... one of the arguments I've had aimed at me is a verse in the New Testament warning people to avoid false doctrine... As if these people honestly expect me to read that verse and say "Oh my goodness! Right you are!" and it never even occurred to them that a Mormon reads that very same verse as telling US to avoid false doctrines. They simply can't accept that anyone can read the Bible and see it in any way differently than they do.

(Of course, when I point out that we use the same Bible they do (The King James Version) I get "No you don't! You have a different Bible!" Funny... the Title Page in mine says King James...)

Maybe I'm more open minded because I used to be Catholic so I know what it is to have a totally different perspective and then change it, as opposed to being locked into a single one.

But even a site admin was up my butt about it. (In fact, an argument with him inspired the example I posted just now for Hydesland.)

I've never seen any rule that requires site admins to be non-assholes. In fact, people with egos large enough to host discussion boards as venues for The Truth are likely to have their own interpretation of what might constitute that Truth.

One of the reasons this forum has survived as long as it has is because Max Barry is not an asshole, and he's taken pains to try to hire non-assholes to administer and moderate the site. Which is not to say that his hiring practices are perfect - all the current mods have had occasional 'asshole moments' - but hopefully those are relatively few and far between.

Sticking with a discussion board in the hope that you'll change minds ... especially admin minds ... makes about as much sense as assuming your spouse will lose all his/her bad habits once you've had a chance to talk some sense into them. Associations based on fundamental misconceptions are usually doomed.

And remember, just adding a thought to JuNii's words, never lose your cool. One of the aspects of your online personality I respect the most is your ability to, kinda keep your cool and, at least not with me, the fact you're not that judgmental. Perhaps that's why, although we're never on the same page, we can debate, ruthlessly even, and always end in firendly terms. Don't change that, eh?;)

Oh I'm tryin'. There have been a couple times lately where I've felt incensed at some of the vitriol directed at me personally in some private messages and my first instinct is to say BLOW IT OUT YOUR ASS but I take a break and come back more or less under control.

I won't change, and thanks or the warm fuzzy :)

some people deserve defence, others paint the target on themselves.

don't kill your party too quickly... they won't learn nuthin then.

My problem is I'm no longer certain they CAN learn anything form me. Once people make up their minds...

My problem is I'm no longer certain they CAN learn anything form me. Once people make up their minds...

yep.

and a forum is a terrible medium to try to teach anything to anyone.

My problem is I'm no longer certain they CAN learn anything form me. Once people make up their minds...

I guess the best course of action is not to try to teach people. Post your little piece of knowledge and hope people do learn from it. Trying to teach people, although a commendable job, can turn into a sour experience. That, of course is IMO.

I've never seen any rule that requires site admins to be non-assholes. In fact, people with egos large enough to host discussion boards as venues for The Truth are likely to have their own interpretation of what might constitute that Truth.

One of the reasons this forum has survived as long as it has is because Max Barry is not an asshole, and he's taken pains to try to hire non-assholes to administer and moderate the site. Which is not to say that his hiring practices are perfect - all the current mods have had occasional 'asshole moments' - but hopefully those are relatively few and far between.

Sticking with a discussion board in the hope that you'll change minds ... especially admin minds ... makes about as much sense as assuming your spouse will lose all his/her bad habits once you've had a chance to talk some sense into them. Associations based on fundamental misconceptions are usually doomed.

I guess maybe I've been spoiled by this forum ;)

/brown nosing

But my thing is, we sort of hold mods and admins to a higher standard, and when they're just as bad...

Want to hear something real funny? I was looking over the thread where I was debating Mormonism on that other board and I realize they think I'm just another Evangelical who is defending Mormons. This is how they treat their own?!?!? (I never specified.. I kinda thought it was obvious... my sig being a quote from Joseph Smith, as well as my knowledge of the Book of Mormon and all)

Kinda makes me remember a time in the not too distant past when a white person who stuck up for blacks would be labeled a "******-lover" (As my mom was back in the 50s.)

I feel like I should clarify but can you imagine the reaction? "Oh you liar! You let us believe you weren't a Mormon! This just proves we were right about you! RAAAAAGHH!" Maybe that'll be h ow I torch that bridge when I finally stop posting there...

yep.

and a forum is a terrible medium to try to teach anything to anyone.

I guess the best course of action is not to try to teach people. Post your little piece of knowledge and hope people do learn from it. Trying to teach people, although a commendable job, can turn into a sour experience. That, of course is IMO.

Yeah that's the thing... Sometimes I think I'm only making things worse by making them circle the wagons and galvanizing them against the Church instead of reaching an understanding.

lol

surely you have been on the net long enough to know that there are assholes everywhere. even (some) people who are angels in real life turn into assholes online. its all part of the system.

Ah, the GIFT (http://globalnerdy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/greater_internet_fuckwad_theory.jpg).

Yeah that's the thing... Sometimes I think I'm only making things worse by making them circle the wagons and galvanizing them against the Church instead of reaching an understanding.

Indeed. Which is also the reason I've stopped trying to change people's minds. When one tires, the bickering begins. It's better to let them reach their own understanding of things.

Good question.

The way I see it, honest criticism is never a bad thing. If somebody has a problem with my beliefs, then hey that's cool. This is why we have religious freedom.

Bashing is when there's a malicious intent behind it, and it is virtually always accompanied by misinformation and distortions. You can always tell because an honest objector will be open to your point of view, while a basher will absolutely not listen to anything you say if it messes with their argument.

For example:

An honest criticism:

Debater: "Well I think your religion is flawed because there can be no more prophets, wheras the Mormons have a Prophet in Salt Lake right now. To me, that's a sign of a false religion"
Me: "Well... The Bible doesn't say there could be no more prophets..."
Debater: "Maybe, but nevertheless it doesn't make sense to me. To each his own, though."
Me: "Fair Enough."

A bash:

Basher: "Well, I have this book here that says you Mormons believe God slept with Mary to conceive Jesus."
Me: "Well I can assure you that isn't true."
Basher: "Well this well known Christian author says you do."
Me: "Well here's the passage in the Book of Mormon that says it isn't."
Basher: "HOW DARE YOU DISMISS MY SOURCE! YOU DO BELIEVE THAT!"
Me: "..."

Well, the second one certainly is a crap debatter... a troll, in other words.
But I think the first one doesn't exactly contribute anything meaningful to a discussion either. Debates should be a bit more than people just posting their opinion and then wandering off to the next topic.
I know for a fact that the first guy probably could put up a couple of bible quotes concerning false prophets and some bits that can be read to say that there will be no further prophets.
Would it be malicious intent if he did that?

Yeah that's the thing... Sometimes I think I'm only making things worse by making them circle the wagons and galvanizing them against the Church instead of reaching an understanding.

youre not going to reach an understanding with everyone.

but if you remain calm and civil there will be some who recognize that you are a reasonable human being and will be able to say to others "i know a mormon, he's an OK kinda guy"

ah, The gift (http://globalnerdy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/greater_internet_fuckwad_theory.jpg).

Bingo

My problem is I'm no longer certain they CAN learn anything form me. Once people make up their minds...

Nah, people can always learn.

It's just futile to try and teach them when they currently don't want to.

A well-vented statement, well done.

Well, the second one certainly is a crap debatter... a troll, in other words.
But I think the first one doesn't exactly contribute anything meaningful to a discussion either. Debates should be a bit more than people just posting their opinion and then wandering off to the next topic.
I know for a fact that the first guy probably could put up a couple of bible quotes concerning false prophets and some bits that can be read to say that there will be no further prophets.
Would it be malicious intent if he did that?

Not at all. I only made it so short to save time. ;)

Whenever two people of good conscience debate, it's always stimulating even if it goes on and on for a very long time. I love it. I thrive on that. I've learned more about my Church by doing research to support my debates than by simple study alone. It's not malicious if someone wants to try and prove Biblically that my religion is wrong. I welcome that because, like I said, it's how I learn.

The incident that inspired my second example annoyed me because he essentially took offense to the fact that I didn't consider his obviously biased source to be more reliable than the very book that is the basis for Mormon religion in the first place. As if any yutz with an agenda can write a book and become every bit as infallible as they see the Bible itself. I'm serious though, he ACTUALLY took offense... As if I'd insulted his mama or something...

youre not going to reach an understanding with everyone.

but if you remain calm and civil there will be some who recognize that you are a reasonable human being and will be able to say to others "i know a mormon, he's an OK kinda guy"

Gawd I hope so...

Nah, people can always learn.

It's just futile to try and teach them when they currently don't want to.

Amen.

A well-vented statement, well done.

Thanks very much :)

Just to clarify as well, I like mormons. The most peaceful of the religious groups.

Just to clarify as well, I like mormons. The most peaceful of the religious groups.

That's quite a claim.

Just to clarify as well, I like mormons. The most peaceful of the religious groups.

Does that mean it's a bad thing that when I see one of those B.S. arguments, in my mind I'm shouting "Battle Stations! WHOOP WHOOP WHOOP!" :D

That's quite a claim.

Well it's only from experience... It's not fact.

Yeah that's the thing... Sometimes I think I'm only making things worse by making them circle the wagons and galvanizing them against the Church instead of reaching an understanding.

I get that feeling sometimes. thats why I'm trying to be more selective as to which thread I get involved with.

also this can be an argument for the need for more light hearted spammy threads. where people on different spectrums can join together and just have fun without religion or politics getting in the way.

I get that feeling sometimes. thats why I'm trying to be more selective as to which thread I get involved with.

also this can be an argument for the need for more light hearted spammy threads. where people on different spectrums can join together and just have fun without religion or politics getting in the way.

You know, it's funny you mention that.

It was on just such a thread that one of these guys started taking shots at me over my Joseph Smith sig.

Some people, I tell ya.

Thanks again guys for indulging me. I feel better now. I'm gonna go pick up my baby, then pick up my wife, then go home in time for my other 3 kids to arrive, then get ready for my AD&D game, after which we'll be planning our strategy for tomorrow's Warhammer battle.

Yeah, that's how I roll. :D

(Of course, I will check on this thread later 'cause I'm totally digging the positive vibe)

I apologize if this sounds martyr-ish or whiny. I just want to put it out there because if I don't vent this it's gonna ruin my afternoon and I've got to DM an AD&D game tonight ;)

So a lot of you guys have seen me out there defending Catholics and Evangelicals when I feel like they're being attacked in the various threads that come up around here. I do this because I believe, as a Mormon, that I'm just as much a Christian as they and because of this:



Now, as I mentioned in another thread there's a Christian themed forum I have been posting on where I've seen a bunch of bashing against prettymuch everybody who isn't an Evangelical Christian. heck, even the Catholic who usually got crap from the others gleefully joins in when somebody else is the target. I was incredibly disappointed by this.. I mean, people who profess to love one another as Jesus Christ taught...

And yeah, I got crap there too for sticking up for Catholics and Mormons. I've been called, a liar because I had the temerity to use the Book of Mormon as a source for my arguments on Mormon Doctrine as opposed to worshiping their sources... some Evangelical author who wrote a book and got a check.

Between that and some of the nonsense I've been given by Evangelicals on this forum... I'm thinking maybe it's better to just say 'to hell with it' and stop trying. I think my problem, honestly, is I had this ideal mental image and it just ain't realistic, apparently.

One thing that brought this into stark contrast was a Mormon-themed forum board where people don't bash. Period. The Mormons there don't bash other religions, and bashing form other religions isn't tolerated. That's what I was hoping to see in other places but now I feel kinda foolish.

Again, forgive me if I come across as whining. I don't mean to sound like a martyr or anything like that it's just kinda hard to accept so I'm venting.

*phew* Ok now I'm ready for some gaming :D

Thank you for your indulgence.

Maybe it was all the bashing I received from every single Mormon I ever met in Utah when I was living there for two years.

"Don't you know what the only True religion is?" This was the question asked BEFORE they asked me my name. There were NO exceptions.

In a place where you're asked what your religion is before they ask you your name - in a place where if they haven't seen you at the local ward, you must be some poor benighted basketcase - in a place where the Mormon neighbors put their empty liquor bottles in my trash can because the trash pickup guys might rat them out for backsliding - my tolerance for Mormons of any kind was set to below zero a long, long, long time ago - and it was put there by Mormons.

The recent converts are the worst, because they trumpet the shit without brooking any argument.

I apologize if this sounds martyr-ish or whiny. I just want to put it out there because if I don't vent this it's gonna ruin my afternoon and I've got to DM an AD&D game tonight ;)

So a lot of you guys have seen me out there defending Catholics and Evangelicals when I feel like they're being attacked in the various threads that come up around here. I do this because I believe, as a Mormon, that I'm just as much a Christian as they and because of this:



Now, as I mentioned in another thread there's a Christian themed forum I have been posting on where I've seen a bunch of bashing against prettymuch everybody who isn't an Evangelical Christian. heck, even the Catholic who usually got crap from the others gleefully joins in when somebody else is the target. I was incredibly disappointed by this.. I mean, people who profess to love one another as Jesus Christ taught...

And yeah, I got crap there too for sticking up for Catholics and Mormons. I've been called, a liar because I had the temerity to use the Book of Mormon as a source for my arguments on Mormon Doctrine as opposed to worshiping their sources... some Evangelical author who wrote a book and got a check.

Between that and some of the nonsense I've been given by Evangelicals on this forum... I'm thinking maybe it's better to just say 'to hell with it' and stop trying. I think my problem, honestly, is I had this ideal mental image and it just ain't realistic, apparently.

One thing that brought this into stark contrast was a Mormon-themed forum board where people don't bash. Period. The Mormons there don't bash other religions, and bashing form other religions isn't tolerated. That's what I was hoping to see in other places but now I feel kinda foolish.

Again, forgive me if I come across as whining. I don't mean to sound like a martyr or anything like that it's just kinda hard to accept so I'm venting.

*phew* Ok now I'm ready for some gaming :D

Thank you for your indulgence.

Neo-Brettonia, the fact that you did stick up for Christianity as a whole proves that you are indeed a better Christian than the Evangelicals and Catholics of which you speak. You are indeed truly following Christ in encouraging universal respect, and for putting yourselve out there to defend sinners.

Christianity is the faith of many people, and in any large group of people, you will have masses of imperfection. A fact that many people like to use as an argument against Christianity, is that there are Christians who are not fully following Jesus by not showing respect for all people, Christians that kill, steal, bear false witness, and covet their neighbour's wives while using our faith as an excuse. They are not living in Christ's example. You, however, are. Don't give up on the rest of us.

Neo-Brettonia, the fact that you did stick up for Christianity as a whole proves that you are indeed a better Christian than the Evangelicals and Catholics of which you speak. You are indeed truly following Christ in encouraging universal respect, and for putting yourselve out there to defend sinners.

Christianity is the faith of many people, and in any large group of people, you will have masses of imperfection. A fact that many people like to use as an argument against Christianity, is that there are Christians who are not fully following Jesus by not showing respect for all people, Christians that kill, steal, bear false witness, and covet their neighbour's wives while using our faith as an excuse. They are not living in Christ's example. You, however, are. Don't give up on the rest of us.

Thanks very much for the kind words. None of us are perfect, to be sure. I guess the trick is always trying to improve so even though we never can be perfect, we benefit tremendously by the effort.

Did anyone else notice the glaring logic flaw in Hotwife's post? ;)

Did anyone else notice the glaring logic flaw in Hotwife's post? ;)

The whole thing?

maybe you should look for a different evangelical forum. this one might be the asshole magnet.I *love* it when you type like that. :D

The whole thing?

Touche', Dem... Touche'

Neo-Brettonia, the fact that you did stick up for Christianity as a whole proves that you are indeed a better Christian than the Evangelicals and Catholics of which you speak. You are indeed truly following Christ in encouraging universal respect, and for putting yourselve out there to defend sinners.

Christianity is the faith of many people, and in any large group of people, you will have masses of imperfection. A fact that many people like to use as an argument against Christianity, is that there are Christians who are not fully following Jesus by not showing respect for all people, Christians that kill, steal, bear false witness, and covet their neighbour's wives while using our faith as an excuse. They are not living in Christ's example. You, however, are. Don't give up on the rest of us.
Suck up... You're just trying to get the cool prizes aren't you? ;)
Thanks very much for the kind words. None of us are perfect, to be sure. I guess the trick is always trying to improve so even though we never can be perfect, we benefit tremendously by the effort.

Unless of course you're me...

Unless of course you're me...

Well of course, but I didn't want to blaspheme by speaking your name ;)

Thanks again guys for indulging me. I feel better now. I'm gonna go pick up my baby, then pick up my wife, then go home in time for my other 3 kids to arrive, then get ready for my AD&D game, after which we'll be planning our strategy for tomorrow's Warhammer battle.

nbd... so what was the casualty count?
:mp:

I doubt it was just that forum. Does evangellicalism really strike you as an ideology indusive to tollerance of other's beleifs?


Besides the atrocious spelling, Skyland is quite correct. I was born catholic, raised Evangelical (Assemblies of God) and now I am agnostic (I believe there is a higher power, I'm just not sure that any of the religions have all the answers. I think each religion is just a small -and sometimes twisted- shard of the whole.)

I remember the teachings they tried instilling in me when I was going to church as a child, then a teenager, then a young adult.

First it was to become saved and give yourself over to God and put him in your mind and decisions at all times. As a child that's not easy, but it's doable. Next it was to speak to your friends and even strangers and spread the word. Problem is that most people I knew went to church as well, and already knew what the word was...and they already made up their minds in the matter. Also, when you are a shy, picked on kid it isn't easy to talk to others about a really private and touchy subject.

I learned really quick that the Assemblies of God church doesn't have any sympathy or need for shy people. In the middle school sunday classes, we were to share how many people we had spoken with about Jesus, and were encouraged to bring our friends and other children to Sunday school with us. Being the very shy and introverted kid I was, I rarely had spoken with anyone about God and never brought someone else to Sunday Morning Class. Oh, I knew the bible pretty well and believed in what we were taught, but I just felt more comfortable in the live and let live policy.

So instead of my youth leader trying to help cox me out of my shyness and make me a stronger person, he used me as an example to the other kids in the Sunday morning classes as what not to be. Great confidence builder there that every morning, when I was called on to stand and talk about who I had shared the word of God with, I answered truethfully that I hadn't. So then I had to stand there for the next five to ten minutes while the youth leader went on and on about how there are true christian warriors out there spreading the word of God and there are those who just sit back and are content leaching from God. Taking his blessings but not giving anything back.

I remember also being told that sure, if we believed and asked Jesus to forgive our sins that we would go to heaven, but not all Christians are created equal. I was told as a freshman in High School that when we die, we will stand before Jesus and he will ask us what we have done for him on earth. If we just have accepted him as our lord and savior, then hey, we get to go to heaven, but he will not be very pleased with us. Those kind of Christians, we were told, were like slackers...just doing the minimum necessary to pass a test. However, each person we can convert and save will be like a precious gem that we will be able to hold up in our hands towards Jesus, proclaiming our loyalty and dedication to him.

I was told that even Christians of other faiths needed to be saved, and while they never spoke on Muslims or other faiths outside of Christianity (you were either Christian or Unsaved), it was hinted at that they would go to hell if they didn't believe. You see, I quit going to church long before 9/11, so Muslims were never really something we talked about.

I also remember being told that if you married anyone that you met that wasn't of the Evangelical faith, then your marriage was guaranteed to fail and you shouldn't associate with them. It was even said (and I remember this clearly) that if you feel love for someone of the other sex that wasn't at least a practicing christian, it was the work of Satan and you need to banish that person from your life.

The thing that sent me away from the church was that any activity that didn't have God at its focus was considered a sin of the flesh. You see, I live in Fargo, North Dakota and during my youth I attended the 'Kids on Fire' summer camp in Devils Lake, North Dakota (for those that have seen the movie "Jesus Camp" that is exactly what it was like).

We were asked one time before camp to bring along what we did for hobbies to share with the other kids, so I brought my 120MM reflector telescope since Astronomy was my hobby. I remember one kid brought his guitar and shared with the others how good he was by playing a guitar lick from a popular christian band's #1 hit (at the time anyway. Petra was the band). A girl sang an Amy Grant praise song, and I was blown away at how good she was. Another guy showed his collection of rare rocks he had collected with his father from around the world. Another girl explained her interest in computers (though she wasn't allowed to bring her computer per her parents rules). Me? At night I set up the scope and everyone got to see the Moon, Jupiter, Saturn, Mars and some of the Meiser objects.

The youth leader did have a sermon the next day on the wonders Jesus did create, and asked each of us in turn on stage to explain why we enjoyed our hobbies and to help others understand why it interested us. I described how fascinating the stars were and how when I looked into the sky I was awed that Jesus managed to make all those stars and nebulae, but remembered to make me. He asked if I believed in Aliens, and I answered I hadn't given much thought to is but honestly that from the trillions of worlds circling the billions of stars in each of the billions of galaxies in the Universe, there probably was life somewhere out there but I didn't believe in Aliens visiting earth. He chuckled and patted me on the shoulder and then asked the kid with the rock collection and the girl that liked computers to join us on stage (he also asked about 10 other kids as well).

Once on stage he pretty much pointed out that we were sinners. That my hobby of astronomy was a sin of the flesh. How the time spent studying the heavens was time that could be spent praying or studying the bible. That astronomy was a waste of time and a distraction from God. How I was betraying Jesus and his teachings to even speculate on their being life on other worlds. He did the same for the kid with the rocks, saying that he was spending his time scratching in the dirt for pretty stones while ignoring the most beautiful thing of all, Jesus. That by spending time collecting colored clumps of dirt, he was turning his back on Jesus when he should be spending time with him. The girl with the computer interest (someone I later dated in college years later when I too had acquired an interest in computers), she was wasting her hours playing with a device that didn't glorify Jesus in any way. There were about ten other kids with interests like horseback riding and go-kart racing, but those other two kids stuck out the most in my mind.

We stood there in front of +150 other kids, while the youth pastor explained to all the other kids we were sinners and used us as examples of the failings of the flesh. I don't know about the others but I felt betrayed, used, embarrassed, and ashamed. I had opened up and shared my feelings and part of my life with others (a BIG jump for me), and I actually had other kids telling me the night before how cool I was for knowing all the stuff I did about the planets and stars and how neat my telescope was. At nightly prayers I was asked to join their prayer circle, sit with them during their bible study, and eat with them at their table at breakfast the next morning. Now that doesn't sound like a big deal, but when you are 'the' nerd of your school and came from a poorer family, that kind of acceptance was a huge thing.

Now they were looking at me while I was on stage as if I had just confessed to ripping up the bible for fun. The fact that the Youth Pastor said we could all be saved if we just destroyed the tools of our hobbies and ask forgiveness from Jesus didn't sit well with me. They were going to have a bonfire where we could throw the tools of our sin into, to free us from the temptation. I spent two years shoveling snow, mowing lawns, and doing odd jobs as well as saving up with my part time job to buy my scope so there was no way I was going to throw it in there.

Anyway, the youth leader asked us in turn if we were going to renounce our sins and ask forgiveness. There were five or six kids to my right that he asked before me and they all said yes (the kid with the rock collection was one of them). When he came to me, put his hand on my shoulder, asked if I would renounce my sin and then put the mic up to my mouth I said, "No".

I was angry and said that I didn't see what I did as a sin and I wasn't going to destroy my telescope. He shook his head and moved on to the girl that liked to go horseback riding and asked if she was going to throw her saddle into the fire. She said, "NO!" and ran off the stage crying (I found out later that it used to be her late mother's saddle). After that the pastor just told everyone else that if we wanted to rid ourselves of sin they just needed to meet at the bondfire and toss the tools of their sin into the fire. We prayed and then were dismissed...except of course me. I found out that youth leaders get pretty pissed when a kid screws up their leader's sermon, and I was told I wasn't welcome at the camp anymore. They literally had two youth councilors stand over me while I packed my suitcase, sleeping bag and telescope from the room I was sharing with three other boys. I then was taken into town to a nearby church and left there for my parents to pick up. So there I was, 16 years old sitting in the entry way of a local church that was locked up for the night, waiting for my parents (well, it's ND so the worry of being kidnapped is something you never thought of).

Yeah, my parents were called and asked to take me home from the camp, though they were pissed at me for getting kicked out of bible camp, for a "Poor and Disruptive Attitude". That's a 3-4 hour drive both ways. Took a few days before I could explain exactly what happened. Thankfully my folks supported me in that and since then I never have attended church.

You tell me if that's a sane, caring and supportive religion.

Did anyone else notice the glaring logic flaw in Hotwife's post? ;)

Maybe it was all the bashing I received from every single Mormon I ever met in Utah when I was living there for two years.

"Don't you know what the only True religion is?" This was the question asked BEFORE they asked me my name. There were NO exceptions.

In a place where you're asked what your religion is before they ask you your name - in a place where if they haven't seen you at the local ward, you must be some poor benighted basketcase - in a place where the Mormon neighbors put their empty liquor bottles in my trash can because the trash pickup guys might rat them out for backsliding - my tolerance for Mormons of any kind was set to below zero a long, long, long time ago - and it was put there by Mormons.

The recent converts are the worst, because they trumpet the shit without brooking any argument.

No logic flaws in that. I'm sorry the Mormons in Utah are jackasses who absolutely scare people off their religion.

What can you honestly expect from a Christian discussion forum...

nbd... so what was the casualty count?
:mp:

No casualties in D&D, this one was a very roleplay heavy session as the party attempted to avert war between the Dwarven underkingdom and the human city, still rebuilding after a series of devastating raids by the Drow.

As for the Warhammer battle...

Well, I'm sad to say that while they fought valiantly, the forces of Bretonnia were not enough to stand against our foes. Our Empire and Dark Elf allies shared our defeat as the Wood Elves and forces of Chaos triumphed.

But there will always be another battle, and new opportunities for glory!

Besides the atrocious spelling, Skyland is quite correct. I was born catholic, raised Evangelical (Assemblies of God) and now I am agnostic (I believe there is a higher power, I'm just not sure that any of the religions have all the answers. I think each religion is just a small -and sometimes twisted- shard of the whole.)

I remember the teachings they tried instilling in me when I was going to church as a child, then a teenager, then a young adult.

<snip>

You tell me if that's a sane, caring and supportive religion.

That was a great post, and I read the whole thing.

(It was long but worth it, guys.)

See, this is the sort of thing that made me uncomfortable at times when I went to similar Sunday School activities. Learning and Knowledge are things to be encouraged and rewarded, not held up for ridicule.

But something did occur to me as I read this... It's not at all surprising, in a way, when I encounter people who simply parrot stuff they read in those books written to trash others' beliefs... It's that they aren't used to thinking for themselves. I'm not saying this about Evangelical Christians in general, only those who I referred to in my OP and people as described in Karshkovia's post...

So when you have people who are so used to just going along with what they're told and never discerning for themselves, then it suddenly makes perfect sense that they'd be so willing to believe anything written by a "Well-known Christian author" just because he/she casts himself as a doctrinal authority.

Furthermore, if they're accustomed to an environment where people who appear to be on "the wrong track" are held up publicly as an example of what not to do, then it might explain their utter lack of discretion or tact when throwing out these charges.

This is the sort of story that makes me appreciate my Church. The Mormons encourage people to learn, to question and to gain understanding. I guess in a way that has spoiled me, because I expect others to be the same.

The Mormons encourage people to learn, to question and to gain understanding. I guess in a way that has spoiled me, because I expect others to be the same.

They did nothing of the kind in Salt Lake City with their children in public school.

In fact, it was quite apparent that the opposite was going on.

After all, Mormon missionaries never have to lie...


Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary

by Loren Franck

The Bible predicts a dreadful fate for liars. For instance, while banished on the island of Patmos, the Apostle John saw that "all liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8). Similarly, the beloved disciple writes, liars are doomed to an eternity outside of God's presence (Revelation 22:15). Because Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44), lying is extremely serious sin.

As a full-time Mormon missionary from 1975 to 1977, I lied for the church countless times. Like my colleagues in the South Dakota-Rapid City Mission, which served the Dakotas and adjacent areas, I spoke truthfully about my background, but touted many Mormon teachings that contradict the Bible. After my mission ended, however, I examined these doctrines more closely. The harder I tried to reconcile the contradictions, the more evident they became. So, after extensive prayer and study, I resigned my church membership in 1984. Cheated and betrayed, I lacked spiritual life for the next 17 years. But God, knowing those who are His (John 10:14; 2 Timothy 2:19), drew me to Christ (John 6:44) and saved me in 2001. My spiritual emptiness was replaced by the abundant life only the Savior can give (John 10:10). And now, like millions of Christians worldwide, I have everlasting life through my faith in Him (John 3:36; 6:47).

I can't remember all of my missionary lies. Some were small, others grandiose, but all were false and misleading. Here are ten I'll never forget.
1. We're Not Trying to Convert You

Of all my lies, this was the most frequent. I learned it well while in Winnipeg, Manitoba, which was my first assignment. A standard door-to-door proselyting pitch began with, "We represent The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Interrupting, many people said they had their own religion. "Oh, we're not trying to convert you," I responded. "We're sharing a message for all faiths."

But Mormon missionaries have one overriding goal, and that's to bring converts into the church. Clearly, this was the purpose of my mission. I didn't trade the Southern California sunshine for the Dakota snow merely to build interfaith relations. My calling was to teach the church-approved missionary lessons and then baptize the people I taught.
2. The Bible is Insufficient

According to their eighth Article of Faith, Mormons accept the Bible as the word of God only when it's translated correctly. How convenient for a missionary. When a non-Mormon's interpretation of scripture differed from mine, I frequently blamed faulty Bible translation. And since I believed the Bible was missing "many plain and precious things," as the Book of Mormon claims in 1 Nephi 13:28-29, I urged prospective converts not to trust it completely.

And yet, Mormon proof texts had few translation problems. Throughout my mission, I used only those Bible verses that steered prospects away from their church and toward Mormonism. But what kind of Christian believes that an all-knowing, all-powerful and all-loving God gave mankind an inadequate version of His word. Actually, the Bible is more than sufficient. With its 66 books, 1,189 chapters and nearly 740,000 words, it's the divine road map to eternal life through Jesus Christ.
3. We're the Only True Christians

For decades, the Mormon Church has tried to blend with mainstream Christianity. Accordingly, during my mission a quarter-century ago, I worked hard to convince prospects that Mormons believe in the biblical Jesus. But Paul warned of deceivers who would lure Christians away from "the simplicity that is in Christ." These false teachers preached "another Jesus" and "another gospel" (2 Corinthians 11: 3-4) and were accursed (see Galatians 1:8-9). How interesting that Paul also cautions against false apostles, such as those in the Mormon Church (2 Corinthians 11:13-14).

So which Jesus and gospel do Mormons preach? While a missionary, I taught that Christ was the firstborn spirit child of the Father in a premortal life. (The remainder of humanity was born as spirits later in this "pre-existence.") But I didn't tell prospects this was a literal birth, the result of literal fathering, as Mormon prophets and apostles have claimed. If asked, I taught that the devil was born as one of God's noble spirit sons during the pre-existence, but had rebelled and started a war in heaven.

Consistent with Mormon doctrine, then, Christ and Satan are spirit brothers. But the Bible teaches that Christ is God (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6; John 1:1), that He has always been God (Psalm 90:2), and that He always will be God (Hebrews 13:8). Born into mortality some 2,000 years ago, Jesus is "God... manifest in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16). He is far grander and holier than "our Elder Brother," as Mormons dub Him. Jesus and Satan aren't spirit brothers, and true Christians don't believe such blasphemy.
4. We're the Only True Church

I usually told this lie during the first of seven 30-minute missionary lessons, which presented the Joseph Smith story. According to our script, Smith prayed in 1820 about which church to join. He claimed the Father and Son appeared and told him that all Christian churches of the day were wrong. Smith said he was forbidden to join any of them, that their creeds were abominable and their professors all corrupt. "They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me," the Lord allegedly added. "They teach for doctrines the commandments of men" (Joseph Smith — History, verse 19). In subsequent lessons, I told prospects that Mormonism is the true church God restored through Smith.

But the Bible says such a restoration was unnecessary. Admittedly, there was partial apostasy after Christ's resurrection, but never a complete falling away. In fact, shortly before His crucifixion, Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church (Matthew 16:18). During my mission, however, I argued that the gates of hell did prevail against Christ's church.

Shortly after renouncing Mormonism, I learned a scriptural death blow to notions of universal apostasy. Addressing Ephesian believers 30 years after the Ascension, the Apostle Paul writes, "Unto [God] be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Ephesians 3:21). God received glory in the Christian church from the time of Paul's writing to the present day, and He will receive such glory throughout all succeeding generations. Therefore, the church must exist from Paul's day throughout eternity. This annihilates Mormon claims of complete apostasy and makes restoration of Christ's church impossible.
5. We Have a Living Prophet

Whether in wintry Winnipeg or the balmy Black Hills of Rapid City, I criticized Christians because their church lacked a living prophet. Mormons claim the true church must have one. My favorite Bible proof text to back this claim was Amos 3:7, which reads, "Surely, the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

When prospective converts remained skeptical of living prophets, I quoted Ephesians 4:11-14, which apparently requires living apostles and prophets until believers unify in the faith and understand Christ completely. However, writing in the past tense, Paul is actually referring to apostles and prophets of Jesus' day. Otherwise, verse 11 would read that the Lord "is giving" or "will give" apostles and prophets. Of course, God did reveal His will through Old Testament prophets, as Amos 3:7 affirms. But for the last 2,000 years, He has spoken to believers through Christ (Hebrews 1:1-2).

The truth about Mormonism's living prophets is further illuminated in Deuteronomy 18:22. "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord," the scripture reads, "if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Isaiah 8:20 contains a similar warning: "To the law and the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

False prophets who led ancient Israel astray received the death penalty (Deuteronomy 13:1-5; 18:20), and all who profess to be living prophets should consider the consequences. Mormon prophets might appear grandfatherly and sincere, but they're not God's living oracles. Since the Mormon Church was founded in 1830, its prophets have uttered a striking number of false prophecies. (See chapter 14 of Jerald and Sandra Tanner's "The Changing World of Mormonism.")
6. The Book of Mormon is Scripture

Joseph Smith claimed that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth, adding that man would become closer to God by following its precepts than by obeying any other book ("History of the Church," Vol. 4, p. 461). Replace "Book of Mormon" with "the Bible" and Smith would have told the truth.

When teaching missionary lessons, I boldly maintained that the Book of Mormon is scripture. I spent myriad hours convincing prospects that it's a sacred record of Christ's activities in the western hemisphere. Yet many Christians I contacted realized the book "borrows" heavily from the Bible and other sources. And in stark contrast to the Old and New Testaments, virtually no archaeological and anthropological evidence supports the Book of Mormon. Why not? Because it's fiction. When Christians want to read scripture, they turn to the Bible.
7. You're Saved By Works

More than any other Mormon lie, this undermines Christ's atonement, which is the most sacred doctrine of the Bible. Mormons usually equate salvation with resurrection. Likewise, they refer to eternal life as "exaltation." I did both while teaching prospective converts. I relished the church's third Article of Faith, which claims, "through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

Trying to bridge the doctrinal divide between Mormons and Christians, I emphasized that salvation is by grace "after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23). What classic Mormon double-talk. Unmistakably, the Bible says eternal life is a gift from God (Romans 5:15; 6:23) to those who believe in Christ (John 6:47), call upon Him (Romans 10:13) and receive Him as Lord and Savior (John 1:12). Contrary to Mormon dogma, this gift cannot be awarded meritoriously.

Equally clear is that salvation results from God's grace through each believer's faith, not from obeying a checklist of laws and ordinances (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5). All who confess Christ and believe in Him from the heart shall be saved (Romans 10:8-13).

Most Mormons know little about imputed righteousness — and neither did I during my mission. Essentially, as Christians know, the Lord credits believers with His perfect righteousness and charges their transgressions to His sinless spiritual "account." Paul explains this doctrine masterfully in Romans 4 and 2 Corinthians 5:18-21.

When teaching the Mormon gospel, though, I emphatically denied imputed righteousness, which is the essence of the atonement. I stressed that eternal life is earned by perfect obedience to all gospel laws and ordinances. Yet the Bible says that "there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not" (Ecclesiastes 7:20). As the Psalmist writes: "They are all gone aside. They are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Psalm 14:3; compare Romans 3:10-18).

How many Mormons perfectly obey all gospel laws? None. As the Bible asserts, even the church's current prophet can't keep God's laws thoroughly enough to merit heaven (1 John 1:8). And if he can't, how can anyone else?
8. People Can Become Gods

Given its explosive nature, this tenet was rarely shared with prospective converts. Missionaries try to entice people into Mormonism gradually, and presenting the doctrine of plural gods is seldom the best way. Several contacts learned the concept from their pastors or read about it on their own, but it was new to most prospects.

"Our Father in heaven loves us so much," I often said, parroting our lesson script, "that He provided a plan [Mormonism] for us to become like him." I didn't mention that Mormon godhood includes spirit procreation throughout eternity. Neither did I hint that the Mormon God was formerly a mortal man, had lived on an earth like ours, and had earned salvation through good works. However, such polytheism strips God of glory and sovereignty. No wonder the Bible condemns it so strongly. When discussing plural gods on my mission, I sidestepped Isaiah 44:8 whenever possible. "Is there a God beside me?" the passage reads. "Yea, there is no God; I know not any." Other verses amply testify that only one God exists in the universe (Deuteronomy 4:35, 39; 6:4; Isaiah 43:10-11; 45:21-23).

When confronted with these scriptures as a missionary, I usually countered with, "Those verses mean we worship only one God, that there's only one God to us." And if that failed, I lied further: "The Bible isn't clear on this subject. Fortunately, the Lord told Joseph Smith that mortals can become gods." Smith might have had a revelation, but not from God.
9. You're Born Again By Becoming a Mormon

One of my favorite missionary scriptures was John 3:5. "Verily, verily I say unto you," the Savior explains, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." To Mormon missionaries everywhere, being born of water means baptism into the Mormon Church. Birth of the Spirit refers to the gift of the Holy Ghost, allegedly bestowed after baptism.

Unfortunately, during my mission, I didn't know what it means to be born again. I completely misinterpreted Paul's declaration that "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17; compare Galatians 6:15). According to the Bible, believers in Christ are reborn spiritually as sons and daughters of God (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1-2). They experience a complete Christian conversion of mind and heart. Membership in a church organization might foster social activity and fellowship, but it's not spiritual rebirth.
10. Temple Marriage is Required for Eternal Life

I participated in well over 100 Mormon temple ceremonies from 1975 to 1982, including my own marriage in 1977. Based heavily on freemasonry, temple rites are the church's most carefully guarded secrets. And "celestial marriage," which supposedly weds men and women eternally, is probably the most important temple ordinance. While a missionary, I frequently told prospects they needed temple marriage to gain eternal life.

Yet the Lord says marriage between men and women is irrelevant to the hereafter. "The children of this age marry, and are given in marriage," He declares. "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage… for they are equal unto the angels...." (Luke 20:34-36.)

The Bible does teach eternal marriage, but not the Mormon version. The union is between Christ, the Bridegroom, and His collective body of believers, who are the bride (Matthew 25:1-13; John 3:29; Romans 7:4; 2 Corinthians 11:2).
False Testimony

I close with a few words about "testimony," which is a missionary's emergency cord. When I couldn't rebut an antagonistic statement scripturally, I fell back on my testimony. For instance, while proselyting in Grand Forks, North Dakota, I was once asked where the Bible mentions the secret undergarments Mormons wear. Caught off guard, I admitted that the Bible says nothing about them. I could merely testify that God revealed the need for these garments through living prophets. But my testimony wasn't based on scripture or other hard evidence. Rather, it was founded on personal revelation, which is extremely subjective. Essentially, my testimony was nothing more than a good feeling about the church and its teachings. In Mormon parlance, it was a "burning in the bosom." But burning or not, it wasn't from God.

If you're a Christian, I urge you to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3). That faith, the pathway to heaven, is found only in the biblical Jesus (John 14:6). But if you're a Mormon, it's time to prayerfully re-examine your beliefs. Do you know you have everlasting life? No. Can you obey all the commandments perfectly and earn a place in heaven? You can't.

I regret the many lies I told during my Mormon mission. When I received Christ, though, I confessed them (and my other sins) and received His forgiveness (1 John 1:9; Colossians 1:13-14). "He that heareth my word," Christ assures us, "and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).

Loren Franck lives in Los Angeles, California, with his wife, Verlette, and their young son.

*snip*
You tell me if that's a sane, caring and supportive religion.

Not in any way.

They did nothing of the kind in Salt Lake City with their children in public school.

In fact, it was quite apparent that the opposite was going on.

hmm... so... between you and Neo B... who's being open minded and supportive of other's religions and views?

Karshkovia, sorry to hear you went to a sucky church. I loved my church... even tho it was 'Baptist' it was no where near the WBC that Phelps makes (in)famous.

After all, Mormon missionaries never have to lie...

and what of that is a lie except for the first one "i am not trying to convert you?"

and what of that is a lie except for the first one "i am not trying to convert you?"

I was wondering that myself. That whole essay was obviously written by someone who'd converted out, so it wasn't much more than a list of doctrinal disagreements.

Even the first item is arguable, but not worth bothering about here.

In any case the tone is meant to appear something other than what it is which is, by definition...

...a lie.

I apologize if this sounds martyr-ish or whiny. I just want to put it out there because if I don't vent this it's gonna ruin my afternoon and I've got to DM an AD&D game tonight ;)

So a lot of you guys have seen me out there defending Catholics and Evangelicals when I feel like they're being attacked in the various threads that come up around here. I do this because I believe, as a Mormon, that I'm just as much a Christian as they and because of this:



Now, as I mentioned in another thread there's a Christian themed forum I have been posting on where I've seen a bunch of bashing against prettymuch everybody who isn't an Evangelical Christian. heck, even the Catholic who usually got crap from the others gleefully joins in when somebody else is the target. I was incredibly disappointed by this.. I mean, people who profess to love one another as Jesus Christ taught...

And yeah, I got crap there too for sticking up for Catholics and Mormons. I've been called, a liar because I had the temerity to use the Book of Mormon as a source for my arguments on Mormon Doctrine as opposed to worshiping their sources... some Evangelical author who wrote a book and got a check.

Between that and some of the nonsense I've been given by Evangelicals on this forum... I'm thinking maybe it's better to just say 'to hell with it' and stop trying. I think my problem, honestly, is I had this ideal mental image and it just ain't realistic, apparently.

One thing that brought this into stark contrast was a Mormon-themed forum board where people don't bash. Period. The Mormons there don't bash other religions, and bashing form other religions isn't tolerated. That's what I was hoping to see in other places but now I feel kinda foolish.

Again, forgive me if I come across as whining. I don't mean to sound like a martyr or anything like that it's just kinda hard to accept so I'm venting.

*phew* Ok now I'm ready for some gaming :D

Thank you for your indulgence.

I've seen Mormons get shitted on by Catholics and those same Catholics get shitted on by the same Mormons in a different conversation involving religion. I've seen Muslims get shitted on by both. The only ones who never seem to get shitted on are the Protestants. Whoever gets shitted on in the conversation depends on who the Protestants decide to make fun of. The only people who I've ever seen not making fun of someone else's religion are my Muslim friends, even when they get verbally assaulted. *Not bashing in any way, just my own observations.

I've seen Mormons get shitted on by Catholics and those same Catholics get shitted on by the same Mormons in a different conversation involving religion. I've seen Muslims get shitted on by both. The only ones who never seem to get shitted on are the Protestants. Whoever gets shitted on in the conversation depends on who the Protestants decide to make fun of. The only people who I've ever seen not making fun of someone else's religion are my Muslim friends, even when they get verbally assaulted. *Not bashing in any way, just my own observations.

From a former Baptist, trust me there's tons of shitting on protestants.

From a former Baptist, trust me there's tons of shitting on protestants.

Definitely, which is how I came to be defending them in the first place, per the OP ;)

I've seen Mormons get shitted on by Catholics and those same Catholics get shitted on by the same Mormons in a different conversation involving religion. I've seen Muslims get shitted on by both. The only ones who never seem to get shitted on are the Protestants. Whoever gets shitted on in the conversation depends on who the Protestants decide to make fun of. The only people who I've ever seen not making fun of someone else's religion are my Muslim friends, even when they get verbally assaulted. *Not bashing in any way, just my own observations.

It always disappoints me to hear tales of Mormons behaving in that way, because it's NEVER encouraged by Church leadership.

I once heard a story of a time when a couple of missionaries were observing a Catholic rite in a church in the Southwest where these people were praying and slowly making their way up the steps to the door, being very penitent and, IIRC, kissing the steps as they went. The missionaries started to make fun of them, and the Mission Leader rebuked them strongly for it.

Update:

Ok I'm frankly stunned. I've never seen this before and I just had to share it with those of you who were kind enough to offer helpful advice and suggestions.

I've managed to get into a reasonably civil debate with one of the fellows on that other board, and the question of whether or not Baptism is essential for Salvation has come up.

(Mormons believe it is, most Evangelicals believe it isn't.)

So I offered as evidence Mark 16:16 to support my side.

His response: That verse (and several others around it) are extraneous and shouldn't be there.

WTF? Earlier in the debate he insisted that the Bible is inerrant and complete, thus the Book of Mormon was unnecessary.

So how can you have a section of the Bible be WRONG yet somehow not insist that the Bible itself is inerrant?!?!?!?!?

Will these people stop at nothing to avoid conceding even the slightest point to a Mormon?

Like I said, the debate has been civil but.... geez I don't know why I should bother to proceed. Evangelical Christianity absolutely hinges upon the inerrancy of the Bible. This is very telling.

I apologize if this sounds martyr-ish or whiny. I just want to put it out there because if I don't vent this it's gonna ruin my afternoon and I've got to DM an AD&D game tonight ;)

So a lot of you guys have seen me out there defending Catholics and Evangelicals when I feel like they're being attacked in the various threads that come up around here. I do this because I believe, as a Mormon, that I'm just as much a Christian as they and because of this:



Now, as I mentioned in another thread there's a Christian themed forum I have been posting on where I've seen a bunch of bashing against prettymuch everybody who isn't an Evangelical Christian. heck, even the Catholic who usually got crap from the others gleefully joins in when somebody else is the target. I was incredibly disappointed by this.. I mean, people who profess to love one another as Jesus Christ taught...

And yeah, I got crap there too for sticking up for Catholics and Mormons. I've been called, a liar because I had the temerity to use the Book of Mormon as a source for my arguments on Mormon Doctrine as opposed to worshiping their sources... some Evangelical author who wrote a book and got a check.

Between that and some of the nonsense I've been given by Evangelicals on this forum... I'm thinking maybe it's better to just say 'to hell with it' and stop trying. I think my problem, honestly, is I had this ideal mental image and it just ain't realistic, apparently.

One thing that brought this into stark contrast was a Mormon-themed forum board where people don't bash. Period. The Mormons there don't bash other religions, and bashing form other religions isn't tolerated. That's what I was hoping to see in other places but now I feel kinda foolish.

Again, forgive me if I come across as whining. I don't mean to sound like a martyr or anything like that it's just kinda hard to accept so I'm venting.

*phew* Ok now I'm ready for some gaming :D

Thank you for your indulgence.

the circle jerk here is just as guilty. It'd be amusing if the circle jerks from Christian forums came here and met head on with the NSG circle jerk. It would bea clash of the interweb titans.

Update:

Ok I'm frankly stunned. I've never seen this before and I just had to share it with those of you who were kind enough to offer helpful advice and suggestions.

I've managed to get into a reasonably civil debate with one of the fellows on that other board, and the question of whether or not Baptism is essential for Salvation has come up.

(Mormons believe it is, most Evangelicals believe it isn't.)

So I offered as evidence Mark 16:16 to support my side.

His response: That verse (and several others around it) are extraneous and shouldn't be there.

WTF? Earlier in the debate he insisted that the Bible is inerrant and complete, thus the Book of Mormon was unnecessary.

So how can you have a section of the Bible be WRONG yet somehow not insist that the Bible itself is inerrant?!?!?!?!?

Will these people stop at nothing to avoid conceding even the slightest point to a Mormon?

Like I said, the debate has been civil but.... geez I don't know why I should bother to proceed. Evangelical Christianity absolutely hinges upon the inerrancy of the Bible. This is very telling.

Is there a version of the Bible in which those verses are not included?

If not, it just sounds like a logical inconsistency to me.

His response: That verse (and several others around it) are extraneous and shouldn't be there.

WTF? Earlier in the debate he insisted that the Bible is inerrant and complete, thus the Book of Mormon was unnecessary.

So how can you have a section of the Bible be WRONG yet somehow not insist that the Bible itself is inerrant?!?!?!?!?


so when you pointed out his logical problem, what did he respond?

Evangelical
You keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

Don't Mormons (or is it Baptists?) refer to Catholicism as a 'gutter religion'?

Don't Mormons (or is it Baptists?) refer to Catholicism as a 'gutter religion'?

i thought that was what louis farrakhan called judaism.

i thought that was what louis farrakhan called judaism.

Wouldn't know, my only source on American religious sects is the tv show 'Big Love':)

Wouldn't know, my only source on American religious sects is the tv show 'Big Love':)

if you cant trust HBO on religious issues, you can you trust?

Did anyone else notice the glaring logic flaw in Hotwife's post? ;)I really really just don't see the point in that anymore, unless i'm in the satire-pursuit mode.

You keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means.
Inigo Montoya ftw!

Don't Mormons (or is it Baptists?) refer to Catholicism as a 'gutter religion'?
No, they refer to it as "the Whore of Babylon".
http://aftermathnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/mitt-romney_evil.jpg

No, they refer to it as "the Whore of Babylon".
http://aftermathnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/mitt-romney_evil.jpg

Romney is actually a exploiter (for real, he owns companies and everything), so that's rather funny with the whole criticism of Catholics as being of 'worldly power and wealth'.

Romney is actually a exploiter (for real, he owns companies and everything), so that's rather funny with the whole criticism of Catholics as being of 'worldly power and wealth'.
Did ya catch the whole article? The pic was good, but ... http://www.adn.com/matsu/story/469132.html

Is there a version of the Bible in which those verses are not included?

If not, it just sounds like a logical inconsistency to me.

Well, my copy of the New International Version includes the verse but underneath Mark 16:8 you find a disclaimer:


______________________________________________________

[The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.]

Similarly, the Novum Testamentum Graece encloses Mark 16:9-20 in double square brackets, indicating that (my bold):

"the enclosed words, generally of some length, are known not to be a part of the original text. These texts derive from a very early stage of the tradition, and have often played a significant role in the history of the church".

Many inerrantists qualify their belief by saying that they believe the scriptures were inerrant in the original manuscripts, but parts of the received texts may have been corrupted. Maybe that was what he meant?

Many inerrantists qualify their belief by saying that they believe the scriptures were inerrant in the original manuscripts, but parts of the received texts may have been corrupted. Maybe that was what he meant?

well no one wants to have to handle snakes and drink poison to prove their religiosity.

well no one wants to have to handle snakes and drink poison to prove their religiosity.
No one?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers.html
Splitters!

No one?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0407_030407_snakehandlers.html
Splitters!

ya ya

no one who isnt already nutz.

ya ya

no one who isnt already nutz.
You know, this is almost like the "rstln + e" in Wheel of Fortune.

You know, this is almost like the "rstln + e" in Wheel of Fortune.
a given?

a given?
Ayup.
You know, though, they're one of the few groups i kinda respect about their faith (to a limit of course), since they really are willing to sacrifice their own well-being to prove the integrity of their faith.
The crummy faiths always sacrifice SOMEONE or SOMETHING ELSE.

the circle jerk here is just as guilty. It'd be amusing if the circle jerks from Christian forums came here and met head on with the NSG circle jerk. It would be a clash of the interweb titans.

Then the Farkers (http://www.fark.com/) would join in and pretty much put both the Christian forum posters and the NSG circle jerkers under their thumb :)

Is there a version of the Bible in which those verses are not included?

If not, it just sounds like a logical inconsistency to me.

Agenda kinda answered that, but even if we grant that there's another version of the Bible that doesn't contain that section, such a Bible would have been published subsequent to several versions that do, despite his insistence that the Bible is 100% inerrant.

so when you pointed out his logical problem, what did he respond?

He kinda dodged it by pointing out that even if I was right about the authenticity of those verses it still wouldn't prove my point about Baptism.

Well, my copy of the New International Version includes the verse but underneath Mark 16:8 you find a disclaimer:

Similarly, the Novum Testamentum Graece encloses Mark 16:9-20 in double square brackets, indicating that (my bold):

Many inerrantists qualify their belief by saying that they believe the scriptures were inerrant in the original manuscripts, but parts of the received texts may have been corrupted. Maybe that was what he meant?

No, I don't think so because earlier in that same debate when he was asking me to defend needing the Book of Mormon in the first place, I pointed out that the Bible had incurred little errors and omissions over the years as the result of the text not being perfect copies, essentially making the very point you mention, but he insists that God magically kept that from happening...

...but was apparently powerless to stop somebody from adding on to Mark...