NationStates Jolt Archive

This is the first thread in Devil’s Advocate series. I’m hoping for two things: lively debate and challenging your thinking.

It’s just like any other serious NSG debate thread (they do exist). However, to make it different, new, and challenging, there are some rules. They are very simple, and you can probably deduce them from the words “Devil’s Advocate”.

Rule 1: You must argue the opposite of your own beliefs. You must honestly try to prove what you don’t believe in. Cite good sources, pull good points, attack what you know to be the weak spots in your own belief. It’s hard, but I believe you are smart enough to do it. :)

Rule 2: However, you must do this seriously, not ironically or sarcastically. This is even harder. Try not to let your real beliefs show in any way. If a stranger were to read this thread, they must believe that you actually believe what you are arguing. The goal is to show what you believe by stating the opposite, but not in a joking manner.

Some guidelines: If you are “on the fence” on the topic at hand, then pick the side you like least to argue for. For example, if you are a moderate that leans democratic, argue the republican side. If you are moderate that leans republican, argue democratic.

Let’s get started! Today’s topic is: Abortion

Abortion is a terrible waste of human potential. Since it was legalized in the US in 1973, roughly 1.3 million babies a year have been murdered. Think: around 45.5 million children, human beings, lost because people don't want to be responsible for what they have done.

I don't want to hear anything about rape cases. Babies are gifts from God; sins of the father don't pass down to the child. Yes, you had a traumatizing event. NO, you shouldn't give that child the chance at life. Take joy in the child, not how the child was conceived.

Speaking of conception: there are plenty of contraceptives out there. USE THEM. I don't advocate having sex before marriage, but I can't do anything about that no matter how much I argue. Therefore, I must insist that if you are going to fornicate, use contraceptives. And do it right. Right on the package of condoms, it says, "Best when used with other forms of contraceptives". I don't want you to say that you were using a condom, the child was an accident. It is still a child, a human being. Murder is illegal, why not abortion? But I digress. A couple should use multiple forms of contraceptives in order to avoid the blessings from God.

Legalized abortion causes an escapist method of solving problems. Instead of working through a problem, people run away from it. You corrupt the American culture with the idea that one can solve their problem by killing it.

Abortion is just simply wrong. You're killing innocent children. You may see a clump of growing cells. I see beautiful human potential, a gift from God.

http://www.ohiolife.org/abortion/index.asp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biYm_pLUn5o
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102207.html

ok

we have a responsibility as a civilized country to promote the best in society.

that means that we should outlaw abortion except on the most extreme circumstances so that everyone knows where we stand on the value of life, potential life and the miraculous process of reproduction.

we have a responsibility as a civilized country to promote the best in society.

So true. Lead by example, I always say.

that means that we should outlaw abortion except on the most extreme circumstances so that everyone knows where we stand on the value of life, potential life and the miraculous process of reproduction.

As an addendum, I would add that violators of this law would get the death penalty! ;) Irony, or fitting justice?

I joke, of course. I am pro-life in every sense. Human souls are precious, and only for God to judge.

So true. Lead by example, I always say.



As an addendum, I would add that violators of this law would get the death penalty! ;) Irony, or fitting justice?

I joke, of course. I am pro-life in every sense. Human souls are precious, and only for God to judge.

well

only the doctors should get the death penalty. they should not be free to practice the medicine of death.

Nobody has ever been forced to keep a baby they didn't want.

Before abortion was medically legal, women didn't go to back-alley abortionists because they didn't want the baby, they wen't to back-alley abortionists because they didn't want to give birth. The social stigma of being a teen mother or an unwed mother or other family pressures were convincing women to take their health into their hands to avoid social pressures that shouldn't even exist.

Now, not only are these social pressures considerably lessened, but we make it medically possible to avoid answering them. Rather than face our problems as a society, we allow the complete avoidance of it with a quick medical procedure that is completely unnecessary. Women don't NEED to have abortions because nothing forces them to keep their baby. We've actually developed an entire health industry around an unnecessary surgical procedure.

Many people argue that forcing women to carry a baby to term is a violation of their personal liberty. Perhaps that's true, but we seem to be perfectly willing to assign an arbitrary cut-off point where the risk of the operation and the viability of the unborn child makes it more palatable to carry the baby to term. How is this cut-off point decided? When are the risks of an unnecessary surgical procedure acceptable and when are they too great?

Perhaps if we spend a fraction of the money spent on abortions dealing with the social issues of raising children in this country, we wouldn't need abortions anymore.

Perhaps if we spend a fraction of the money spent on abortions dealing with the social issues of raising children in this country, we wouldn't need abortions anymore.

Quoted For Truth

good post lg!

this thread can only work if our (usually) anti-abortion posters come in to defeat our arguments.

good post lg!

this thread can only work if our (usually) anti-abortion posters come in to defeat our arguments.

((In order to do that, it requires actually reading the opponent's arguments instead of just plugging one's ears. It'll be interesting to see which anti-abortion people read and which plugged))

]this thread can only work if our (usually) anti-abortion posters come in to defeat our arguments.

Yeah... that's the reason NSG lacks good debates these days... we all agree with each other. I thought though, if everybody tried arguing against what they believed it might cause some re-thinking.

Come on "pro-choicers"! Let's hear those arguments!

We have an a priori ethical obligation to protect all human life. There was a time when giving birth represented a significant chance of death for a mother, and that time is long gone. In our time, the only excuse for having an abortion is when the mother has a serious risk of death or serious health complications (again, our obligation to human life prevents us from taking such risks). For all we know, that aborted fetus could be the next great scientist, inventing a cure for a disease that kills millions, they could be the person that leads us to the stars, a person that invents the next great thing. And at the very least, we owe them a chance at life, a chance to feel anxiety, comfort, loss, gain, suffering, happiness, hate, and love. We owe them a chance to feel what it is to be human, a chance to live and learn, a chance to be apart of this world. Abortion is the complete denial of everything to a child with no crime. Punishing the innocent for a deed they did not commit is ethically wrong, and we as a society cannot stand for this.

If a women does not wish to raise a child, she can give the child to an orphanage, or have someone adopt the said child. There is no excuse in "they don't want him", because there are many people waiting for an adoption. There is no excuse in "free choice", because the women and her partner clearly chose to take a risk, or to actively create a new life. And there is no excuse in rape, because the infant is not the criminal, only a victim of the said abortion.

Thus, I urge that we all oppose abortion from a moral and pragmatic standpoint.

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By the way, I am engaging in switch-side debate. If no one comes to argue against "pro-life", I'm willing to take my usual stance.

... we all agree with each other. I thought though, if everybody tried arguing against what they believed it might cause some re-thinking.

Didn't totally think that through, then?

I can guess what the pro-life pretending to be pro-choice argument might be... does this count?

To the OP:

Do you have a preference on discussion of legal vs. moral issues surrounding abortion?

Legalized abortion causes an escapist method of solving problems. Instead of working through a problem, people run away from it. You corrupt the American culture with the idea that one can solve their problem by killing it.

I agree: declassifying abortion as a crime creates an escapist ideology and weakens the moral fiber of our society. Even a woman who would never get an abortion herself can be harmed when society gives her the message that it's "okay" to take another life. If murder is "okay" just because a woman can't be bothered to take responsibility for the effects of her actions, when else is it justifiable? A baby just grows benignly in the womb; if it's okay to kill a defenseless baby, is it "okay" to kill someone that punches you in the face? How about someone that robs you?

The women who DO choose to have abortions become increasingly desensitized to both the physical and moral ramifications. Some women have five, 10, even 15 abortions, routine as if they're having their teeth cleaned. And in many of these multiple-abortion cases, not only are innocent lives cut short, but the fiduciary burden is transferred to the masses in the form of rising taxes.

good post lg!

this thread can only work if our (usually) anti-abortion posters come in to defeat our arguments.

Call me cynical, but for this topic, I ain't holding my breath.