NationStates Jolt Archive

You keep making the comparison. But, is that really an excuse?

"Yes, we treat our poor like shit, but Zaire started it?"

as I said before in this thread "hey, we're better than mexico!" isn't setting the bar too high.

I have been 'the poor in the US'. I didn't get free health care, subsidized housing or food assistance. I didn't get extra money to buy my kids school clothes. I didn't get free-fuck-all-to-do-shit.
Fuck that!

Oh I agree, although these people exist in many countries in the west, and its a difficult problem to solve.

So?

"It's difficult" and "there are problems everywhere" are factors involved, they are not excuses for not trying.

Yes. But the situation would be better, wouldn't it. The gross gap of inequality would be ever-so-slightly-less gross?


But would still, as you describe, make those Africans blush.


I don't care what you 'believe'. In terms of resources, there simply isn't anywhere else in the world that comes close to the bounty the US has. Hell, we have more fresh water (for instance) than the rest of the world combined... by a long way.

Yes but, in reality, the whole world has more than enough resources to practically end poverty. Poverty today is almost entirely to do with politics rather than lack of resources.

I have been 'the poor in the US'. I didn't get free health care, subsidized housing or food assistance. I didn't get extra money to buy my kids school clothes. I didn't get free-fuck-all-to-do-shit.

then youre not poor.

or you didnt apply.

it used to drive my sister in law crazy that she had to pay for her kids school clothes when her sister got money from the state.

then youre not poor.

or you didnt apply.

it used to drive my sister in law crazy that she had to pay for her kids school clothes when her sister got money from the state.

Key word: state. States don't all have the same social programs.

You keep making the comparison. But, is that really an excuse?


I never said it was an excuse, I agree that the American economy is being run badly. You're the one who originally made the absurd comparison of the plight of the poor between the US and sub-Saharan Africa, one that they may almost find insulting.

Key word: state. States don't all have the same social programs.

yet another reason why the archaic and nonsensical idea of the "state" should be done away with.

extremes in any direction are not good, but when you look at countries with a higher per capita GDP, a higher median income, longer life expectancy, a generally higher life satisfaction rating, a smaller % of the population in poverty and less health care costs per capita, one begins to wonder...

Wonder what?

then youre not poor.

or you didnt apply.

it used to drive my sister in law crazy that she had to pay for her kids school clothes when her sister got money from the state.

Rather depends what poor is. A five person family on less than $30,000 a year sounds pretty poor to me.

The simple fact is - while I'm happy some people are getting help, I can assure you, I've been literally turned away applying for assistance - and that was when I was on $6.50 an hour.

Your assurances are lovely, but my experience of reality forces me to disagree with you.

So?

"It's difficult" and "there are problems everywhere" are factors involved, they are not excuses for not trying.

Of course, but you're trying to demonize the USA and making it seem like they're not trying to do anything about the poor but instead just letting them rot. It's not that they're not trying, its that their methods and how the money is being spent is shit. As I said, one example is that the USA spends more than any other nation on earth on health care, yet the health care system is still pretty sucky.

I never said it was an excuse, I agree that the American economy is being run badly. You're the one who originally made the absurd comparison of the plight of the poor between the US and sub-Saharan Africa, one that they may almost find insulting.

It's not an absurd comparison, and I don't care if you find it insulting, or it leaves you in tears. Look up GINI for the US.

Of course, but you're trying to demonize the USA and making it seem like they're not trying to do anything about the poor but instead just letting them rot. It's not that they're not trying, its that their methods and how the money is being spent is shit. As I said, one example is that the USA spends more than any other nation on earth on health care, yet the health care system is still pretty sucky.

Yes. The US government is shit. That taken as read, why tolerate it?

Americans are the most apathetic people on the planet.

It's not an absurd comparison, and I don't care if you find it insulting, or it leaves you in tears. Look up GINI for the US.

I don't find it insulting, I mean that the Africans might. Again, I'm not talking about inequality, you seemed to be implying that the poor have it as bad as they do in sub-Saharan Africa, its just that these African nations are not able to do anything it about the problem but the USA are worse because they can (you then further imply that the US gov just simply refuse because they don't give a shit about the poor).

Yes. The US government is shit. That taken as read, why tolerate it?

Americans are the most apathetic people on the planet.

Truthfully, I don't currently think that Obama will realistically be able to make it that much better, maybe a little. The people can't simply vote their way out of this at this point in time.

yet another reason why the archaic and nonsensical idea of the "state" should be done away with.

I'm fairly certain you and I have gone round and round on this in the past so I'll state my position and agree to disagree with you.

I'd do away with the Federal government before I'd do away with the states.

As to the topic being currently debated, I support a universal healthcare system run by the state, rather than the Federal government. Not only is it easier to bitch at Lansing about things not working right it also allows those places that want it to have it and lets the fucktards in Texas and the Plains not suffer the effects of the "evil socialism", thus stopping us from having to convince them.

It's not an absurd comparison, and I don't care if you find it insulting, or it leaves you in tears. Look up GINI for the US.

I think it's about .437, which is among the highest, if not the highest, for industrialized nations. On the other hand, there's still a big difference between making one-tenth of what your fellow American millionaire has and making roughly the same as your Zairian neighbor.

As to the topic being currently debated, I support a universal healthcare system run by the state, rather than the Federal government. Not only is it easier to bitch at Lansing about things not working right it also allows those places that want it to have it and lets the fucktards in Texas and the Plains not suffer the effects of the "evil socialism", thus stopping us from having to convince them.

But that's practically the situation you have already.

Truthfully, I don't currently think that Obama will realistically be able to make it that much better, maybe a little. The people can't simply vote their way out of this at this point in time.

Obama might be able to do a little. He won't cure the problem. But, that's part of the problem - there are three hundred million people in the US, but we're waiting for one of two of them to save us...

I think it's about .437, which is among the highest, if not the highest, for industrialized nations. On the other hand, there's still a big difference between making one-tenth of what your fellow American millionaire has and making roughly the same as your Zairian neighbor.

The US GINI is about as high as it gets outside of sub-Saharan Africa. That's my point - our inequality, measured on the world stage is pitiful.

And, while you are right, the Zairian neighbour probably gets his accomodations at a fragment of the price, etc.....

yet another reason why the archaic and nonsensical idea of the "state" should be done away with.

You're right. The problem is the difference between states. There should be only ONE state on the planet.


;)

But that's practically the situation you have already.

More or less, only my state doesn't have universal healthcare yet. There was an effort (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080628/NEWS06/806280334) this year, but it stalled out. Still, I'm confident that a universal healthcare system will appear at the state level before it appears at the national level. Soon people are going to realize that the reason a lot of Michigan companies are relocating to Ontario is because they won't have to suffer GM's fate and become a healthcare provider that tries to sell (shitty) products to pay for its healthcare service.

More or less, only my state doesn't have universal healthcare yet. There was an effort (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080628/NEWS06/806280334) this year, but it stalled out. Still, I'm confident that a universal healthcare system will appear at the state level before it appears at the national level. Soon people are going to realize that the reason a lot of Michigan companies are relocating to Ontario is because they won't have to suffer GM's fate and become a healthcare provider that tries to sell (shitty) products to pay for its healthcare service.

Therein lies the rub. It's killing the US economy to do healthcare the way we do it. Sure - it's good for the pharmacies... not so bad for the hospitals and doctors (since they pass-on their costs)... good news for insurance companies... and good news for all the rich people it doesn't affect, and the politicians who get 'incentivesed' to maintain the status quo...

But, it's got to the point where companies are folding trying to provide healthcare.

There are only two workable solutions - one, fix the healthcare system somehow... preferably, by regulating the shit out of it... or allow the healthcare monopo-strosity encompass the entire US workforce, and turn us into a mass exporter of healthcare (and thus, we'll all get covered by our company health program).

In school you're told we're a capitalist country, free, a meritocracy, there's rule of law, etc. But when you enter real life and/or read history you find there's always been a fight for subjugation of citizens through tariffs+central banks and American citizens are oppressed by many laws. Having British tech. and momentary escapes from their central banks we had the most potential but now we work to subjugate the middle east.

Therein lies the rub. It's killing the US economy to do healthcare the way we do it. Sure - it's good for the pharmacies... not so bad for the hospitals and doctors (since they pass-on their costs)... good news for insurance companies... and good news for all the rich people it doesn't affect, and the politicians who get 'incentivesed' to maintain the status quo...
It's not good for the pharma companies at all. They have to deal with an utterly incapable regulatory authority (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=533172) (which you apparently want to give even more power).

Fact of the matter is that the US healthcare system is not free market. It's a mess of stop-gap measures that are being made permanent by lobbyists. Regardless which way you go (more market or more government) it's likely going to be better as long as you reform it comprehensively and have one simple, clear set of rules, programs and regulations in place. Neither candidate is going to provide that, hence there will be little or no improvement, regardless of how many tax dollars are spent on it.

In school you're told we're a capitalist country, free, a meritocracy, there's rule of law, etc. But when you enter real life and/or read history you find there's always been a fight for subjugation of citizens through tariffs+central banks and American citizens are oppressed by many laws. Having British tech. and momentary escapes from their central banks we had the most potential but now we work to subjugate the middle east.

Law and tax are not oppression.

What they told you at school was propaganda. The US has powerful lobbies that oppose regulation - for obvious reasons That doesn't make us a 'free trade' paradise, or even a very good capitalism. It just makes the US a good place to be a CEO.

You are told you are 'free' and that 'free' is a measure of self-determination, but when it comes down to it, how much 'freedom' does a person have. You COULD choose to turn your back on society, and then you MIGHT be some form of self-determining... but you won't. The American 'Freedom' is a picture they put on your wall and tell you it's a window.

You are told it's a meritocracy, and it is - to an extent. But 'merit' can be bought. And, increasingly, that's the only way you CAN get 'merit'. 'Qualification' is now 'dis-qualification'... you aren't helped into a job because you get the right degree, you're held out because you didn't. It doesn't matter if you have the experience and expertise. And, increasingly, school is becoming a richman's game. Meritocracy - for those who can afford it.

You are told you have rule of law, but one only has to look at the last... year, say? of American politics to know how law really works in the US. If you've got the money and the power, the law is your friend. If you ain't got it, or you're the wrong colour, or you have the wrong name, there is no law for you. Look at Guantanamo.

The problem isn't tariffs and central banks - it's the fact that America is a two-tiered society that hides it's class division behind a wall of illusion.

And, while you are right, the Zairian neighbour probably gets his accomodations at a fragment of the price, etc.....

That's true, the cost of living is much less in poorer places than it is in the US. But there are still some things which almost have to be dealt out equally to all citizens of a country, and in these things the US is much richer than sub-Saharan Africa. For example, a recent Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/05/24/ST2008052401733.html?sid=ST2008052401733&pos=list) talks about the poor state of affairs in Guinea-Bissau thanks to an abundance of drug shipments from Columbia and almost know military or police force of any kind. In a place as wealthy as the US, income distribution doesn't matter, you still receive all of the benefits of a well-equipped military. Same goes for American roads (although it now appears those are less optimal than I thought), plumbing, electricity, education, etc. All of these are the results of a large aggregate income, regardless of who has it.

It's not good for the pharma companies at all. They have to deal with an utterly incapable regulatory authority (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=533172) (which you apparently want to give even more power).

Fact of the matter is that the US healthcare system is not free market. It's a mess of stop-gap measures that are being made permanent by lobbyists. Regardless which way you go (more market or more government) it's likely going to be better as long as you reform it comprehensively and have one simple, clear set of rules, programs and regulations in place. Neither candidate is going to provide that, hence there will be little or no improvement, regardless of how many tax dollars are spent on it.

The FDA needs more power to regulate, without interference from special interests - and that's where it falls down. The FDA isn't regulated, and that's the way government (politicans, beholden to special interests) wants it.

I'm not surprised a militant libertarian thinktank comes to the conclusion that there is too much regulation - but they're wrong. It's the wrong SORT of regulation. Libertarians argue that the FDA calls for too much research - but we've built a system where it's possible to fast-track some medications, and slow-track others. And it generally seems to favour those that make profit, and that don't offend the wrong special interests. Where the system really falls down, is in that bowing to lobbies - we ignore non-US research, for example... so, a drug that has been used successfully for twenty years in Europe, can't get to market in the US. Conversely, a food additive that might not be allowed in the UK, falls through the net again and again in the US. Why would you want to control an additive that causes attention deficit, when you have a vested interest in Ritalin, yes?

Americans are taught from the cradle that regulation is your enemy. It's religion, not science.

That's true, the cost of living is much less in poorer places than it is in the US. But there are still some things which almost have to be dealt out equally to all citizens of a country, and in these things the US is much richer than sub-Saharan Africa. For example, a recent Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/05/24/ST2008052401733.html?sid=ST2008052401733&pos=list) talks about the poor state of affairs in Guinea-Bissau thanks to an abundance of drug shipments from Columbia and almost know military or police force of any kind. In a place as wealthy as the US, income distribution doesn't matter, you still receive all of the benefits of a well-equipped military. Same goes for American roads (although it now appears those are less optimal than I thought), plumbing, electricity, education, etc. All of these are the results of a large aggregate income, regardless of who has it.

The military and basic education, maybe... all the rest of those strike me as commodities that one is not guaranteed.

The military and basic education, maybe... all the rest of those strike me as commodities that one is not guaranteed.

Not guaranteed, no. But the wealth of the US as a whole allows people who are in all meanings of the word really quite poor to still have access to basic infrastructure. An incredibly poor person in Guinea-Bissau may still be able to afford plumbing, but it doesn't matter if the pipes don't exist.

Not guaranteed, no. But the wealth of the US as a whole allows people who are in all meanings of the word really quite poor to still have access to basic infrastructure. An incredibly poor person in Guinea-Bissau may still be able to afford plumbing, but it doesn't matter if the pipes don't exist.

You are, I assume, aware that the same is true in the US?

iirc the op was about healthcare, not freedoms or elections.

also, if the US raised the taxes to the same amount of Denmark, or of Germany, there could be free college for everyone in the US too, expecially since the prices in the US are lesser than in Germany or Denmark.

it's just a matter of different social models. in the US you pay less taxes and get much less from the State: in Europe you pay more taxes and get much more from the State (unless you live in Italy or Greece, that is).

btw France elects directly the head of state, too, and has better life standards than the US (buying power, minimum wages, workers' rights, education and access thereto...)The problem with your theory is you do not attempt to give any credit to the fact that the U.S. operates based on a form of a free market system. While, most of Europe operates based on the the idea of a welfare state. So the concept of comparing the United States to Western Europe is rather strange, as each have their own virtues, with both having their negative and postive traits.

You are, I assume, aware that the same is true in the US?
Well, yes, the absence of pipes in any part of the world prevents successful plumbing. But the US has pipes. (At least, in most places. In urban areas it certainly does.)

Well, yes, the absence of pipes in any part of the world prevents successful plumbing. But the US has pipes. (At least, in most places. In urban areas it certainly does.)

Not all Americans live in cities. For example - I don't.

The poor in rural America would be in much the same situation you described, no?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7511426.stm

If the USA is spending more per person on health care than any other country, why is it not seeing the results in terms of the well-being of its citizens? Would a nationalised health service be better for the United States or, if not, which of the two main party candidates in the coming election will be best for the US on health, and why?

Having a health service doesn't mean you're healthy.

If you're sedentary, eating four Big Macs a day, and swilling a case of Budweiser to wash it down, while chain smoking Marlboros, you could have a doctor standing by your side and you wouldn't live very long.

And no President is going to make a 340 pound man or woman get off the damned couch and exercise. Or make them stop putting Sara Lee in their piehole.

Your imagining that "the government can solve every problem, if only we nationalize things and increase the spending". It doesn't work that way.

Not all Americans live in cities. For example - I don't.

The poor in rural America would be in much the same situation you described, no?

Yes, but those make up a much smaller percentage of the total population. About 70-75% of Americans live in an urbanish area. (Urbanish because many people live in suburbs.)

Maybe you're right. It would explain why the US basically, as a nation, doesn't give a shit. About foreigners. About each other. Maybe they should?

Incidentally, the lucky coincidence that SOME Americans HAVE looked at it that way, is probably the only reason there has yet to be a U.S.S.A. (In other words, without the safety net of alphabet agencies, the starving masses would probably have followed the trend of red revolution).

Yes. The US government is shit. That taken as read, why tolerate it?

Americans are the most apathetic people on the planet.

So why haven't you picked up your pitchfork and stormed D.C. yet?

So why haven't you picked up your pitchfork and stormed D.C. yet?

He's apathetic, remember?:D

He's apathetic, remember?:D

On the contrary, I'm very very active. I'm just not a citizen. Yet.

Yes, but those make up a much smaller percentage of the total population. About 70-75% of Americans live in an urbanish area. (Urbanish because many people live in suburbs.)

And what sort of percentage of the American poor? Just curious.

Your imagining that "the government can solve every problem, if only we nationalize things and increase the spending". It doesn't work that way.

Actually, nationalising it would, at the very least, allow you to REDUCE spending, for the same result.

Where's the bad, again?

Actually, nationalising it would, at the very least, allow you to REDUCE spending, for the same result.

Where's the bad, again?

Where were you when the free market proved it's effectiveness?

Where were you when the free market proved it's effectiveness?

It hasn't, yet. Not in the case of healthcare, certainly - which is immune to the rules of free markets.

(It's a conditional monopoly, you don't really have the choice a free market would require... your choices become "take whatever healthcare is available, or die in hell fat pig").

On the contrary, I'm very very active. I'm just not a citizen. Yet.

That didn't stop all of the illegal immigrants when they held their may day protests. I smell apathy! :eek:

That didn't stop all of the illegal immigrants when they held their may day protests. I smell apathy! :eek:

Aha, but I'm a legal immigrant.

(Also, have to point out, you really don't know what I do politically, now, do you?) :)

And what sort of percentage of the American poor? Just curious.

The overall poverty rate is 12%. I don't know the rural or urban poverty rate; I couldn't find it online. I'll try looking in an offline almanac or something.

EDIT: According to the census bureau (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov9.html), the region with the highest poverty rate is the South, at almost 14%. This is also the most rural part of the country, which suggests that more rural regions are poorer than urban. I still can't find any real numbers, though.

The overall poverty rate is 12%. I don't know the rural or urban poverty rate; I couldn't find it online. I'll try looking in an offline almanac or something.

EDIT: According to the census bureau (http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov9.html), the region with the highest poverty rate is the South, at almost 14%. This is also the most rural part of the country, which suggests that more rural regions are poorer than urban. I still can't find any real numbers, though.

No, but it bears out what I've seen, and what I would have said was likely. And, the real unfortunate thing there, then - is that the additional costs for those services we were talking about, fall mainly on those least likely to be able to pay for them.

Where were you when the free market proved it's effectiveness?

It has? I was reading a book by an economist that could be summed up by the words: "the free market rules!" in which he argued that a nationalised U.S healthcare system would be better than the current model.

But private enterprise must always win out right? Right?

Yes, life in the US is good. You should see the line of people waiting to get in.


I live less than a mile from the Mexican border. You should see the hordes of people running to get in. We watch Border Patrol daily pick up 20 or more people at a time. :gundge:

For all you people who say U.S. is shit, the only reason you probably have your own independent country that you can take pride in is BECAUSE of us. So kiss fucking ass. WWII Saviors FTW.

For all you people who say U.S. is shit, the only reason you probably have your own independent country that you can take pride in is BECAUSE of us. So kiss fucking ass. WWII Saviors FTW.

I 100% back this logic and would therefore like to declare Russia to be the GREATEST COUNTRY OF ALL TIME!

Congratulations Russia, come on up and make a speech.

So why haven't you picked up your pitchfork and stormed D.C. yet?

He/she hasn't done so because they want to live in a country where they have the right to say their government is "shit". If our government is so inferior to another nation, perhaps the one they came from, why do they want to be come a citizen here?

I'll never understand how aliens, legal or otherwise, want to come to this country as badly as they do but then expend all that breath to expound on how crappy we are when compared to the rest of the world.

Move to France, where no one gives a crap. :soap:

I live less than a mile from the Mexican border. You should see the hordes of people running to get in. We watch Border Patrol daily pick up 20 or more people at a time. :gundge:

"so good" = "better than Mexico"?

Where were you when the free market proved it's effectiveness?

Well, we can't all fit inside Milton Friedman's imagination. :rolleyes:

No, but it bears out what I've seen, and what I would have said was likely. And, the real unfortunate thing there, then - is that the additional costs for those services we were talking about, fall mainly on those least likely to be able to pay for them.

I agree, I think inequality is the biggest problem in the United States today, and in that economic inequality is the biggest. In fact, I'd say squelching inequality here is more important than stopping it in a place like Zaire. In undeveloped countries, the biggest issue is getting money, and money, and something resembling infrastructure inside. Distribution is almost secondary. But in the states we've reached a level of material success where we no longer have to worry about that, and we can afford to maybe sacrifice a few dollars of the GDP if it means more equality.

"so good" = "better than Mexico"?

Wow, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever... If this is the best you got, you've already lost the argument.

He/she hasn't done so because they want to live in a country where they have the right to say their government is "shit". If our government is so inferior to another nation, perhaps the one they came from, why do they want to be come a citizen here?

I'll never understand how aliens, legal or otherwise, want to come to this country as badly as they do but then expend all that breath to expound on how crappy we are when compared to the rest of the world.

Move to France, where no one gives a crap.

Or, alternatively, read the thread.

If there is something wrong with the country, everyone should try to fix it, shouldn't they? Those born here... and those who came here willingly?

I agree, I think inequality is the biggest problem in the United States today, and in that economic inequality is the biggest. In fact, I'd say squelching inequality here is more important than stopping it in a place like Zaire. In undeveloped countries, the biggest issue is getting money, and money, and something resembling infrastructure inside. Distribution is almost secondary. But in the states we've reached a level of material success where we no longer have to worry about that, and we can afford to maybe sacrifice a few dollars of the GDP if it means more equality.

Now you're cooking. :)

Or, alternatively, read the thread.

If there is something wrong with the country, everyone should try to fix it, shouldn't they? Those born here... and those who came here willingly?

If by "fixing it" you mean get the government deeply involved and throw more money at the problem, then no, we shouldn't try to fix it. Big government is not the solution to every single problem that comes across someone's desk. Sometimes people need to take responsibility for themselves. To me, THAT is the American way, personal accountability.

Wow, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever... If this is the best you got, you've already lost the argument.

Thou sayest.

GnI was using that equation to distill the point being in the post he quoted. Go ahead and take something else out of context now. He's actually saying that "best in the world" doesn't equate with merely being better than Mexico or Africa. That seems pretty obvious. You'll have to explain how any argument was lost.

Now you're cooking. :)

I'm glad you approve. :)

I think you and I are more or less on the same page in what we think the US should do about the welfare of its citizens; I just don't think the situation is as bad as you do (yet). The devil's in the details.

And I continue to hate these new smilies.

If by "fixing it" you mean get the government deeply involved and throw more money at the problem, then no, we shouldn't try to fix it. Big government is not the solution to every single problem that comes across someone's desk. Sometimes people need to take responsibility for themselves. To me, THAT is the American way, personal accountability.

Good grief -- have you been reading this thread or just spot-replying to individual phrases? When did GnI mention anything about getting the government involved in the way you imagine? He said "everyone". Know what that means? Everyone. How hard is that to understand without launching into an anti-government tirade that is more of a non-sequitur than A-B-D-E-F-testicle?

Good grief -- have you been reading this thread or just spot-replying to individual phrases? When did GnI mention anything about getting the government involved in the way you imagine? He said "everyone". Know what that means? Everyone. How hard is that to understand without launching into an anti-government tirade that is more of a non-sequitur than A-B-D-E-F-testicle?

I admit, I've been mean to Americans.

Where I come from, when a tax comes across the board that people think is really unfair, we don't grumble, curse the government and make pouty faces - people rioted in the streets.

So - when I see American apathy, it confuses and confounds me.

'We', the people, should be fixing America where it's broken. The government should be involved, no doubt - but the rest of us shouldn't just sit on the sidelines complaining about how ineffectual the government is...

He/she hasn't done so because they want to live in a country where they have the right to say their government is "shit". If our government is so inferior to another nation, perhaps the one they came from, why do they want to be come a citizen here?

Okay, now I KNOW you didn't read the thread. He's here because of his lady.

I'll never understand how aliens, legal or otherwise, want to come to this country as badly as they do but then expend all that breath to expound on how crappy we are when compared to the rest of the world.

Move to France, where no one gives a crap. :soap:

I see. So possessing a perspective from having lived in other countries means you can't apply that perspective to your observations of the US? Poppycock. And I dare say that the average Frenchman gives more of a crap than the average American. The 35-hour work week, mandatory vacations and free nationalized health care doesn't come from sitting around on your ass.

I'm through expecting you to be intelligible, let alone rational. Isn't O'Reilly or Hannity or Rush on somewhere? Go and continue assimilating the talking points. The adults are talking here.

I admit, I've been mean to Americans.

Where I come from, when a tax comes across the board that people think is really unfair, we don't grumble, curse the government and make pouty faces - people rioted in the streets.

So - when I see American apathy, it confuses and confounds me.

'We', the people, should be fixing America where it's broken. The government should be involved, no doubt - but the rest of us shouldn't just sit on the sidelines complaining about how ineffectual the government is...

Where are you originally from, just to satisfy my curiosity?

Wow, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever... If this is the best you got, you've already lost the argument.

Again - read the thread. All I did was crystallised an oft-repeated concept: "If the best you can say is that it's better than Mexico, you're not asking much".

Considering what we spend to get what we get, we're not getting much.

I agree, I think inequality is the biggest problem in the United States today, and in that economic inequality is the biggest. In fact, I'd say squelching inequality here is more important than stopping it in a place like Zaire. In undeveloped countries, the biggest issue is getting money, and money, and something resembling infrastructure inside. Distribution is almost secondary. But in the states we've reached a level of material success where we no longer have to worry about that, and we can afford to maybe sacrifice a few dollars of the GDP if it means more equality.

Inequality doesn't usually get you killed here - there'll always be room for humanitarian aid and intervention. ;) Seems to me, though, that if our economy is running itself and our infrastructure is adequate, it may be time to downsize the bureaucracy accordingly. And I say this as (essentially) a bureaucrat.

I admit, I've been mean to Americans.

Where I come from, when a tax comes across the board that people think is really unfair, we don't grumble, curse the government and make pouty faces - people rioted in the streets.

So - when I see American apathy, it confuses and confounds me.

'We', the people, should be fixing America where it's broken. The government should be involved, no doubt - but the rest of us shouldn't just sit on the sidelines complaining about how ineffectual the government is...

Agreed completely. But as long as complacency and consumerism are deemed patriotic, and dissent and activism deemed somehow un-American, well, let's just say I'm not gonna hold my breath.

Healthcare has always been a wierd subject for me. On the one hand I will never have to worry about it-I get covered by the army for thirty bucks a month, and I can retire with full benefits at the age of 37. On top of that, the healthcare plan I have from my parents (through my mom, who teaches at Arcadia University), doesn't expire until I'm done my education. So it's not a personal issue for me, and I accept that as such my views are going to be biased, because I have not and will never have to live without healthcare.
(and I plan to marry an extraordinarily wealthy woman :D)

However, I believe that the government should not be providing healthcare-not because of all this tax crap, because I know that is mostly not true, but because the government has proved time and again that they can not run a buisness well. Like, at all. Rather, the employer should either completely cover the cost, or at least have a (good) plan for very cheap, which would be taken out of an employees paycheck.

Have I given this a ridiculous amount of thought? No, not really. So when you ask me to clarify on certain points, most likely I haven't thought of them yet...but I'll try if you ask.

Where are you originally from, just to satisfy my curiosity?

I'm one of the silent Limey invasion. :D

Healthcare has always been a wierd subject for me. On the one hand I will never have to worry about it-I get covered by the army for thirty bucks a month, and I can retire with full benefits at the age of 37. On top of that, the healthcare plan I have from my parents (through my mom, who teaches at Arcadia University), doesn't expire until I'm done my education. So it's not a personal issue for me, and I accept that as such my views are going to be biased, because I have not and will never have to live without healthcare.
(and I plan to marry an extraordinarily wealthy woman :D)

However, I believe that the government should not be providing healthcare-not because of all this tax crap, because I know that is mostly not true, but because the government has proved time and again that they can not run a buisness well. Like, at all. Rather, the employer should either completely cover the cost, or at least have a (good) plan for very cheap, which would be taken out of an employees paycheck.

Have I given this a ridiculous amount of thought? No, not really. So when you ask me to clarify on certain points, most likely I haven't thought of them yet...but I'll try if you ask.

So how do the armed forces manage to charge so little for their healthcare?

Thou sayest.

GnI was using that equation to distill the point being in the post he quoted. Go ahead and take something else out of context now. He's actually saying that "best in the world" doesn't equate with merely being better than Mexico or Africa. That seems pretty obvious. You'll have to explain how any argument was lost.

As an American, born and bred, I absolutely feel our country has the best to offer of any other country in the world. I am also the first one to say our government has problems, but of all the governments in the world, it's still the best there is. Were it not, why does everyone want to come here?

Inequality doesn't usually get you killed here - there'll always be room for humanitarian aid and intervention. ;) Seems to me, though, that if our economy is running itself and our infrastructure is adequate, it may be time to downsize the bureaucracy accordingly. And I say this as (essentially) a bureaucrat.

It's less about downsizing, and more about making sure it does what it's supposed to.

There's so little transparency and accountability in American civil service (the same is true in industry and commerce, actually), it's hard to be sure it's working.

(Compare the way in which taxes are handled in the US and the UK, for example - the mechanism in the US is so convoluted (deliberately so, I'd say) that it needs an army.)

As an American, born and bred, I absolutely feel our country has the best to offer of any other country in the world. I am also the first one to say our government has problems, but of all the governments in the world, it's still the best there is. Were it not, why does everyone want to come here?

And, how many other countries have you visited, to arrive at this conclusion?

(And, I hate to break it to you, people aren't coming here for your government... there coming here for many other reasons... like genocides, or starvation, or because their lovely lady wife is an American. I doubt if anyone, anywhere, wakes up and says "Damn, the American government is the shit, I gotta get me some".)

For all you people who say U.S. is shit, the only reason you probably have your own independent country that you can take pride in is BECAUSE of us. So kiss fucking ass. WWII Saviors FTW.

from the country who came in LATE got held up even longer by the flipping Japanese (nothing against Japan but the states got held up by a country with much less production power, natural resources and population WHILE said country was invading Mainland Asia!!!!) and were WWII Saviors only because they happened to come in at the turning point. Britain crushed the German Air force and essentially stalled and distracted them Until an invasion could be launched. Russia destroyed a massive German advance and then managed to invade essentially on the strength of its foot soldiers. Hell Canada even contributed training the British air force in safe skies and participating in nearly all the major battles of the war. But no . . .your right the states was key. Actually. . .has the states ever won a war on its own? (other than the war of independence?) I mean Korea was a fiasco that ended up in a stalemate. Vietnam was a joke. World war two I'v gone over. World war one the US of A pretty much sat out. The cold war wasn't a war (but I'll admit the USA was SMART at that point and managed to force the USSR to overspend its way into trouble . . .but of course then the states didn't capitalize on that . . .). The war of 1812? States Invades. . .States gains 0 territory and a burnt down white house. I'd call that a loss. But ya managed to kick out the brits . . .well done. . . (o and that was with French help)

Aha, but I'm a legal immigrant.

(Also, have to point out, you really don't know what I do politically, now, do you?) :)

So being legal makes you unable to fight for what you believe in your heart to be right? FAIL.

EDIT: You might be out there, I don't actually know. But there are lots that say what you say fro a couch, and I'm speaking to them via you.

Or, alternatively, read the thread.

If there is something wrong with the country, everyone should try to fix it, shouldn't they? Those born here... and those who came here willingly?

Only if you actually think that the solution to the problem as posed will be better than the current problem. I think that a large amount of americans do not feel that that is the case. When I am/was part of the work force I had the opinion that my private care was better than any subsidized care I could get.


I'm through expecting you to be intelligible, let alone rational. Isn't O'Reilly or Hannity or Rush on somewhere? Go and continue assimilating the talking points. The adults are talking here.

Fail. Ad hominem claiming that all republicans/conservatives are too idiotic to be part of an adult discussion.

So how do the armed forces manage to charge so little for their healthcare?

See example: Walter Reed.

So how do the armed forces manage to charge so little for their healthcare?

What they charge soldiers isn't what it costs the Army. They're tax-supported. A friend of mine is a railroader with Union Pacific here in California, and pays about $160/mo for full medical/vision/dental for himself and his family. But the railroads are considered to be among the best for benefits nationwide - social security itself was modeled after the railroad workers' union retirement plan. So that's probably the high end of the price spectrum.

As an American, born and bred, I absolutely feel our country has the best to offer of any other country in the world. I am also the first one to say our government has problems, but of all the governments in the world, it's still the best there is. Were it not, why does everyone want to come here?

*sigh*

If you're not going to read the thread, why should anyone bother answering your questions? If you've never been anywhere else, you've no idea what other countries have to offer, do you? And "everyone" want to come here? No. Everyone from impoverished nations looking for work. Some looking for education in industries or areas where it doesn't exist in their country. I just don't see "everyone" wanting to come here. I wonder how you do?

So how do the armed forces manage to charge so little for their healthcare?

Being totally honest? I think it is a combination of three things-
1-They feel guilty for giving us such shitty salaries, so they make our healthcare cheap.
2-It is really rather shitty healthcare, to be totally honest, but at least it's something.
3-They are the government, and can therefore get away with doing things at a loss, monetarily, and not catch shit for it. Moreover, no civilian is going to get pissed at soldiers for having cheaper healthcare. Can you imagine that?

"Hey, those soldiers get such cheap care! Thats fucked up!"
"What kind of prick are you?"

Really though, the bad salary is (somewhat) balanced by the benefits.

So how do the armed forces manage to charge so little for their healthcare?

The Department of Defense is one of the largest employers there is. Also, that this guy is paying anything at all for healthcare is a violation of the oral agreement made with soldiers, sailors and airmen oh so long ago... It's supposed to be free, a benefit of retiring from the military after long, faithful service and sacrifice.

And now that I know our primary dissentor is part of the, how did they say it? Limey invasion, with my tongue firmly in my cheek I say, he is still angry over our leaving when we did...

However, I will say, in all seriousness, that condoning rioting when things don't go your way is wrong, wrong, wrong... As voters, we make our voices known in a much more tangible way then trashing the streets. We use our words and our deeds to make change. By posting on blogs, writing letters, voting for change at the polls, we effect change in a manner which makes our voices heard in a much more resounding way.

To condone violence to get your point across promotes anarchy. You condemn us for being more polite about our dissatisfaction? Sorry, I refuse to stoop to the manner in which you suggest. But, I'm an American and I'm apathetic because I won't launch molotov cocktails at someone's car simply because I disagree with a policy change that my government sets forth.

So being legal makes you unable to fight for what you believe in your heart to be right? FAIL.

When did he say that?

Only if you actually think that the solution to the problem as posed will be better than the current problem. I think that a large amount of americans do not feel that that is the case. When I am/was part of the work force I had the opinion that my private care was better than any subsidized care I could get.

Okay. And how much subsidized care have you ever received?

Fail. Ad hominem claiming that all republicans/conservatives are too idiotic to be part of an adult discussion.

It isn't an ad hominem because it isn't a debate. One cannot have a debate with someone who seems to be chronically unable to read the thread in question. He spouted propaganda, I advised him to leave the thread alone and continue to absorb more.

*sigh*

If you're not going to read the thread, why should anyone bother answering your questions? If you've never been anywhere else, you've no idea what other countries have to offer, do you? And "everyone" want to come here? No. Everyone from impoverished nations looking for work. Some looking for education in industries or areas where it doesn't exist in their country. I just don't see "everyone" wanting to come here. I wonder how you do?

Never been anywhere else? Who said that? You're making assumptions based on your own ignorance of who I am. I am a former member of the military and my husband is retired from the Air Force. I have lived in several other countries as well as visited many more. Never been anywhere else? I wish that were true so I could have been there when my brother died of cancer. Gawd...

Never been anywhere else? Who said that? You're making assumptions based on your own ignorance of who I am. I am a former member of the military and my husband is retired from the Air Force. I have lived in several other countries as well as visited many more. Never been anywhere else? I wish that were true so I could have been there when my brother died of cancer. Gawd...

on the internet, everybody is a cowboy

The Department of Defense is one of the largest employers there is. Also, that this guy is paying anything at all for healthcare is a violation of the oral agreement made with soldiers, sailors and airmen oh so long ago... It's supposed to be free, a benefit of retiring from the military after long, faithful service and sacrifice.


So apparently there is a misunderstanding. I haven't retired. Hell, I haven't even graduated highschool! I'm 17. =)
I've got a while to go before I do that.

on the internet, everybody is a cowboy

Ah. so that's what's wrong with you... :gundge:

So apparently there is a misunderstanding. I haven't retired. Hell, I haven't even graduated highschool! I'm 17. =)
I've got a while to go before I do that.

Dude, you represented yourself as an Active Duty member. I saw one chink in your armor in that you said you paid $30 a month for health insurance. As an Active Duty member, you pay nothing for healthcare, have free life insurance, no vision plan and the family dental benefits are less than $20 a month. I figured you HAD retired and were paying the quarterly premium for TriCare.

Sorry to dis you but let someone answer the military questions that actually knows what's going on...

What they charge soldiers isn't what it costs the Army. They're tax-supported. A friend of mine is a railroader with Union Pacific here in California, and pays about $160/mo for full medical/vision/dental for himself and his family. But the railroads are considered to be among the best for benefits nationwide - social security itself was modeled after the railroad workers' union retirement plan. So that's probably the high end of the price spectrum.

Makes sense.

Being totally honest? I think it is a combination of three things-
1-They feel guilty for giving us such shitty salaries, so they make our healthcare cheap.
2-It is really rather shitty healthcare, to be totally honest, but at least it's something.
3-They are the government, and can therefore get away with doing things at a loss, monetarily, and not catch shit for it. Moreover, no civilian is going to get pissed at soldiers for having cheaper healthcare. Can you imagine that?

"Hey, those soldiers get such cheap care! Thats fucked up!"
"What kind of prick are you?"

Really though, the bad salary is (somewhat) balanced by the benefits.

Makes sense, part two.

The Department of Defense is one of the largest employers there is. Also, that this guy is paying anything at all for healthcare is a violation of the oral agreement made with soldiers, sailors and airmen oh so long ago... It's supposed to be free, a benefit of retiring from the military after long, faithful service and sacrifice.

So the taxpayers subsidize it, do we? Interesting. So tell me again why it wouldn't work for the whole country? Surely we're even larger than our military, if size is the reason why it works.

And now that I know our primary dissentor is part of the, how did they say it? Limey invasion, with my tongue firmly in my cheek I say, he is still angry over our leaving when we did...

:rolleyes: "Our" dissenter? Yours. I agree with him.

However, I will say, in all seriousness, that condoning rioting when things don't go your way is wrong, wrong, wrong... As voters, we make our voices known in a much more tangible way then trashing the streets. We use our words and our deeds to make change. By posting on blogs, writing letters, voting for change at the polls, we effect change in a manner which makes our voices heard in a much more resounding way.

Uh-huh. So what was your take on this when the "voters made their voices known" in 2000?

To condone violence to get your point across promotes anarchy. You condemn us for being more polite about our dissatisfaction? Sorry, I refuse to stoop to the manner in which you suggest. But, I'm an American and I'm apathetic because I won't launch molotov cocktails at someone's car simply because I disagree with a policy change that my government sets forth.

Who condoned violence? A protest isn't automatically violent. He's not condemning Americans for being polite. He's condemning the apathy. Confusing apathy with politeness is a very good way to keep the former alive and well.

Ah. so that's what's wrong with you... :gundge:

that I don't believe people who show up an a message board and immediately resort to appeal to some authority by claiming to be in the military?

If that's "wrong" then yes, that's what's wrong with me.

If you're not going to read the thread, why should anyone bother answering your questions? If you've never been anywhere else, you've no idea what other countries have to offer, do you? And "everyone" want to come here? No. Everyone from impoverished nations looking for work. Some looking for education in industries or areas where it doesn't exist in their country. I just don't see "everyone" wanting to come here. I wonder how you do?

I think it's true that a lot of people would like to live in America and that if everyone could move wherever they wanted, America would probably receive the most immigrants. Certainly if the citizens of the UK (por ejemplo) were given the option to move to America and take up citizenship, a hell of a lot of people would take that opportunity.

I just don't agree that popular and good are necessarily the same thing. If they were, a Bush second term was a great idea and Titanic is the best film of all time.

Never been anywhere else? Who said that? You're making assumptions based on your own ignorance of who I am. I am a former member of the military and my husband is retired from the Air Force. I have lived in several other countries as well as visited many more. Never been anywhere else? I wish that were true so I could have been there when my brother died of cancer. Gawd...

Fine well done but that's still not an argument about why you feel that the US of A is such an great place to live. I'v been to America. I live in Canada I have dual Scottish citizenship. I've lived in France I'v been to Italy Greece and Spain. Of all those places the last one in which I'd want to live? its the states. For me this is because 1) the states does not do much for those who are not well off. 2) The states has a work effort that seems to be work till you die and hope you win the lottery. 3)The states is being run more and more by fear 4)The states' Economy is in decline. 5) YOU ELECTED BUSH . . .TWICE!!!!! 6) There's a surprising amount of ignorance, Racism and Bias against any religion or nation that is not American and Christianity.

Never been anywhere else? Who said that? You're making assumptions based on your own ignorance of who I am. I am a former member of the military and my husband is retired from the Air Force. I have lived in several other countries as well as visited many more. Never been anywhere else? I wish that were true so I could have been there when my brother died of cancer. Gawd...

Okay, I'll bite.

How many friends did you make off-base in the countries you visited? I ask because any in-depth conversations you had with those who really DO live in those countries would have informed a lot of your opinions here. I'm wondering how many you had.

The Department of Defense is one of the largest employers there is.


Quite some suicide you got there. Thankyou for doing my job for me.

So... the bigger the bargaining group that petitions for medical care, the better the deal. Hmmm... so what if , like, everyone bought into a scheme for the healthcare of the whole community. Let's call it... I dunno, 'national healthcare', for the sake of argument...


And now that I know our primary dissentor is part of the, how did they say it? Limey invasion, with my tongue firmly in my cheek I say, he is still angry over our leaving when we did...


Who left where, when?

Dude, you represented yourself as an Active Duty member. I saw one chink in your armor in that you said you paid $30 a month for health insurance. As an Active Duty member, you pay nothing for healthcare, have free life insurance, no vision plan and the family dental benefits are less than $20 a month. I figured you HAD retired and were paying the quarterly premium for TriCare.

Sorry to dis you but let someone answer the military questions that actually knows what's going on...

what in the HELL are you talking about? I'm PA National Guard!

HHC, 1/111, 28th Infantry Division.

Good lord...

EDIT-Never mind the fact that I specifically said that I was on my mom's healthcare until I was done school.

Being totally honest? I think it is a combination of three things-
1-They feel guilty for giving us such shitty salaries, so they make our healthcare cheap.
2-It is really rather shitty healthcare, to be totally honest, but at least it's something.
3-They are the government, and can therefore get away with doing things at a loss, monetarily, and not catch shit for it. Moreover, no civilian is going to get pissed at soldiers for having cheaper healthcare. Can you imagine that?

"Hey, those soldiers get such cheap care! Thats fucked up!"
"What kind of prick are you?"

Really though, the bad salary is (somewhat) balanced by the benefits.

So, please tell me, Nansonia, how is the above post in any way "representing himself as an active duty member of the armed forces"? Where does the post say that? He uses the pronoun "us" once, but looking at the rest of the post, I'm not seeing anything else that indicates first person knowledge that justifies your response here:

Dude, you represented yourself as an Active Duty member. I saw one chink in your armor in that you said you paid $30 a month for health insurance. As an Active Duty member, you pay nothing for healthcare, have free life insurance, no vision plan and the family dental benefits are less than $20 a month. I figured you HAD retired and were paying the quarterly premium for TriCare.

Sorry to dis you but let someone answer the military questions that actually knows what's going on...

You need to relax.

Quite some suicide you got there. Thankyou for doing my job for me.

So... the bigger the bargaining group that petitions for medical care, the better the deal. Hmmm... so what if , like, everyone bought into a scheme for the healthcare of the whole community. Let's call it... I dunno, 'national healthcare', for the sake of argument...

I already caught her on that one in post #337. But you caught her better. Well done.

Who left where, when?

It's a really watery attempt to re-hash the Revolution.

When did he say that?

I went back and edited that as it made me look like a douche.

Okay. And how much subsidized care have you ever received?

If by subsidized, you mean paid for, or subsidized by an governmental source, I was on Champus (Govt. Employee Healthcare) from 0 to 18.

The reason that I made that quote was to talk about my experience with the medical system as part of the work force. In my last job as a truck driver, I paid $18/week for my Health and Dental. Obviously I had co-pays and such, but compared to the NHS's stated tax rate of 11% of income, I definately saved money. 11% of the $35,000 I made would have been approximately $3,850 or approx. $70/week.

$70 < $18.

Now, let's talk about service. I have a guy that I talk to on another forum in Preston, Britain. He cuts himself. When he wanted to see a shrink he got put on a list and waited 7 months to get in to see someone. When I got diagnosed with depression in one of my checkups and was told that I coudn't drive until it was checked out, I went home, and had 2 appointments in 3 weeks, and went back to work.

My opinion after this is that while the government should actually provide some type of basic care for the indigent (i.e. some form of Medicare that doesn't blow) it shouldn't provide full care as it's too unweildy for the current government to do properly. Also, we've got a multiple trillion dollar debt. The last thing we need is more obligations.

It isn't an ad hominem because it isn't a debate. One cannot have a debate with someone who seems to be chronically unable to read the thread in question. He spouted propaganda, I advised him to leave the thread alone and continue to absorb more.

So long as you're just referring to the poster in question, I'll accept that.

Certainly if the citizens of the UK (por ejemplo) were given the option to move to America and take up citizenship, a hell of a lot of people would take that opportunity.


I don't necessarily buy that. I wouldn't have, but for extenuating circumstances.

I went back and edited that as it made me look like a douche.

*applauds* Good of you.

If by subsidized, you mean paid for, or subsidized by an governmental source, I was on Champus (Govt. Employee Healthcare) from 0 to 18.

The reason that I made that quote was to talk about my experience with the medical system as part of the work force. In my last job as a truck driver, I paid $18/week for my Health and Dental. Obviously I had co-pays and such, but compared to the NHS's stated tax rate of 11% of income, I definately saved money. 11% of the $35,000 I made would have been approximately $3,850 or approx. $70/week.

Yours is at least a relevant personal example. Thank you for that.

$70 < $18.

I'm certain you aren't speaking mathematically here, but still, it looks funny.

Now, let's talk about service. I have a guy that I talk to on another forum in Preston, Britain. He cuts himself. When he wanted to see a shrink he got put on a list and waited 7 months to get in to see someone. When I got diagnosed with depression in one of my checkups and was told that I coudn't drive until it was checked out, I went home, and had 2 appointments in 3 weeks, and went back to work.

My opinion after this is that while the government should actually provide some type of basic care for the indigent (i.e. some form of Medicare that doesn't blow) it shouldn't provide full care as it's too unweildy for the current government to do properly. Also, we've got a multiple trillion dollar debt. The last thing we need is more obligations.

One example doesn't a full argument make, but I respect your experience. The debt's a whole 'nother thread.

So long as you're just referring to the poster in question, I'll accept that.

Most gracious of you, I appreciate that.

First of all, setulon representing himself as an authority on the military offends my sensibilities. At 17, he/she has not even begun to experience the world and all it has to offer.

Second, Neo Art, I don't need to justify myself to you nor will I e-mail a scan of my DD-214 and that of my husband showing service to my country. I don't need to do so and I'm the one who went through six weeks of basic training and 52 weeks of tech school. You are making claims of which you know nothing about. Sounds to me as though you might be a little envious? I know nothing about you to say whether or not you ever served your country in any capacity other than to take.

Intangelon, I made friends off base everywhere I went. We lived on the economy, at first due to my husband's lower rank, and then because it was preferable to living in a cocooned society on base. I am still in touch with two people from other countries with whom I became friends (Germany and Japan), 20+ years later. Every place I went, I made a strong attempt to learn as much of the language as I could so as not to "burden" the local merchants with my english. (Push one for English...)

I do not present myself an an authority on the military but having "been there, done that" it would seem I know more about it than a 17 year old child who does their learning from the internet. I also have two children currently in the Army, one a helicopter pilot at Fort Rucker and the other stationed in Phoenix after becoming guard following his four years at Fort Braggat the end of his assignment working on the wall in Yuma, now on track to become a Border Patrol Agent.

Certainly if the citizens of the UK (por ejemplo) were given the option to move to America and take up citizenship, a hell of a lot of people would take that opportunity.
And a hell of a lot more people would laugh in your face.

You guys barely have any kettles, for fuck's sake.

I already caught her on that one in post #337. But you caught her better. Well done.


Heh. It ought to be good, it took me four times as long to type it.... :D


It's a really watery attempt to re-hash the Revolution.

Ah. Oh. Got it, now.

Because, of course, us Limeys are just up all night gritting our teeth over that Revolution thing... :)

I don't necessarily buy that. I wouldn't have, but for extenuating circumstances.

Show them the size of a $600,000 house versus their $600,000 house, the price of gas and the general cost of living and your average middle class family is only going to see friends and family holding them back.

My opinion after this is that while the government should actually provide some type of basic care for the indigent (i.e. some form of Medicare that doesn't blow) it shouldn't provide full care as it's too unweildy for the current government to do properly. Also, we've got a multiple trillion dollar debt. The last thing we need is more obligations.


we do provide free medical care for the poor that doesnt blow. its medicaid.

where we fall short is those who are above the income level that qualfies them for medicaid, are employed but do not get insurance from work and cant afford private insurance.

and those who have pre-existing conditions that either prevent them from getting insurance at all or chain them to their current job so that they can continue insurance.

these are big problems that need to be addressed NOW. we can decide the fate of the for-profit health care system when the best solution for it becomes apparent.

So, please tell me, Nansonia, how is the above post in any way "representing himself as an active duty member of the armed forces"? Where does the post say that? He uses the pronoun "us" once, but looking at the rest of the post, I'm not seeing anything else that indicates first person knowledge that justifies your response here:



You need to relax.

You seriously are in this for the dissention you cause. You can't see the forest for the trees and there's no point in carrying on a kind of discussion with you at all. If you can't read simple English to see WHERE he claims to be part of the military's healthcare plan, then go back to you ESL classes and ask them to parse it for you.

First of all, setulon representing himself as an authority on the military offends my sensibilities. At 17, he/she has not even begun to experience the world and all it has to offer.

Second, Neo Art, I don't need to justify myself to you nor will I e-mail a scan of my DD-214 and that of my husband showing service to my country. I don't need to do so and I'm the one who went through six weeks of basic training and 52 weeks of tech school. You are making claims of which you know nothing about. Sounds to me as though you might be a little envious? I know nothing about you to say whether or not you ever served your country in any capacity other than to take.

Intangelon, I made friends off base everywhere I went. We lived on the economy, at first due to my husband's lower rank, and then because it was preferable to living in a cocooned society on base. I am still in touch with two people from other countries with whom I became friends (Germany and Japan), 20+ years later. Every place I went, I made a strong attempt to learn as much of the language as I could so as not to "burden" the local merchants with my english. (Push one for English...)

I do not present myself an an authority on the military but having "been there, done that" it would seem I know more about it than a 17 year old child who does their learning from the internet. I also have two children currently in the Army, one a helicopter pilot at Fort Rucker and the other stationed in Phoenix after becoming guard following his four years at Fort Braggat the end of his assignment working on the wall in Yuma, now on track to become a Border Patrol Agent.
Great . . .now are you going to defend your position that America is the best country in which to live?

on the internet, everybody is a cowboy

Neo thinks that people who say they are soldiers aren't, and if they are, he thinks that automatically disqualifies them from posting.

My DD-214 is available to anyone who wants a copy.

It's probably a good thing that the English decided not to be dicks after the Revolutionary war. I mean, we could have been Ireland part II, if they really wanted to push the issue in the late 1700's/early 1800's.

end history threadjack.

You seriously are in this for the dissention you cause. You can't see the forest for the trees and there's no point in carrying on a kind of discussion with you at all. If you can't read simple English to see WHERE he claims to be part of the military's healthcare plan, then go back to you ESL classes and ask them to parse it for you.

Dissention?

It's probably a good thing that the English decided not to be dicks after the Revolutionary war. I mean, we could have been Ireland part II, if they really wanted to push the issue in the late 1700's/early 1800's.

end history threadjack.

When? After Cornwallis had his ass kicked all over the southern colonies?

Show them the size of a $600,000 house versus their $600,000 house, the price of gas and the general cost of living and your average middle class family is only going to see friends and family holding them back.

If that's all you're going to show them, there's better countries than America for that.

Great . . .now are you going to defend your position that America is the best country in which to live?

Not after Neo Art and a few others make a regular habit of dissing service in the military.

Show them the size of a $600,000 house versus their $600,000 house, the price of gas and the general cost of living and your average middle class family is only going to see friends and family holding them back.
But you've got to temper that with the view of the US that many in the UK (and other countries) have, of a socially backward, nuttily religious, red-neck, brash country that can't brew a good cup of tea.

All the living space and cheap-ass gas in the world won't convince you if you thinking your moving into Deliverance.


Because, of course, us Limeys are just up all night gritting our teeth over that Revolution thing... :)
I follow the example of old King George III and refuse to speak of the Colonies.

Not after Neo Art and a few others make a regular habit of dissing service in the military.

Surely there's been enough praise over the years to keep you lot content when you don't get the benefit of the doubt?

Not after Neo Art and a few others make a regular habit of dissing service in the military.

What does that have to do with America as a place to live. And can you tell me where they did that?

Surely there's been enough praise over the years to keep you lot content when you don't get the benefit of the doubt?

It's not praise we're looking for. It's the idea that somehow, there's something nasty to say about military service even if the thread isn't about military service.

When it comes from people who never served, it's flaming.

Imagine that in every thread that you posted in (if you were black), someone constantly felt they had to say, "oh, it's another N----r ranting again..."

Start another thread this ones getting Jacked

It's not praise we're looking for. It's the idea that somehow, there's something nasty to say about military service even if the thread isn't about military service.

When it comes from people who never served, it's flaming.

I don't think people who have a problem with military service would have served in the first place, so that doesn't strike me as a very useful standard. Speaking of irrelevant statements, what does that have to do with defending arguments made in this thread?

Not after Neo Art and a few others make a regular habit of dissing service in the military.

I think people who serve honorably, with respect to human rights, in order to defend this country, deserve praise, just as everyone who does their job well deserves praise.

I think people who lie about their military service as an effort to get praise or add validity to their positions deserve every bit of scorn heaped their way.

Guess which one I think you are?

First of all, setulon representing himself as an authority on the military offends my sensibilities. At 17, he/she has not even begun to experience the world and all it has to offer.
I do not present myself an an authority on the military but having "been there, done that" it would seem I know more about it than a 17 year old child who does their learning from the internet.

Ok, there are a couple things wrong with this.
First of all, just to clarify, I am a he.

Secondly, when have I EVER claimed to be an authority? When? I made an assumption half in jest about why soldiers have good healthcare. That was it. I did not claim to be an all-knowing encyclopedia or military lore. I stated, as a fact, that I get benefits from the army. What are you going on about?

Third, what the fuck did the "all my learning from the internet" come from? I am friends with dozens of soldiers. It is my lifes dream to be a soldier. So you can take your incorrect assumptions and toss them out the window.

Fourth, I find your remarks to be very offensive. I have a 4.5 GPA. I have a 2180 on my SATs. My family is comfortable enough to send me to any college in the country. Yet I, me, the person you are talking down to, made an informed, thought out decision to sacrifice ALL OF THAT to serve my country, just like you did.

Lady, I am a United States Soldier. If you don't respect my views, respect that.

You seriously are in this for the dissention you cause. You can't see the forest for the trees and there's no point in carrying on a kind of discussion with you at all. If you can't read simple English to see WHERE he claims to be part of the military's healthcare plan, then go back to you ESL classes and ask them to parse it for you.

I AM PART OF THE MILITARY HEALTHCARE PLAN! Good lord! I signed the contract specifically saying that yes, I get healthcare from the military!

Under normal circumstances, I would love to ask you about your experiences, because you have been there and done that. But now I'm just hoping most of the army isn't like you.

Imagine that in every thread that you posted in (if you were black), someone constantly felt they had to say, "oh, it's another N----r ranting again..."

ok alright thats too far. Hotwife so you served well done and that should be respected. FINE. but either point out where you feel you have been flamed and complain to the mods or just shut it!

Imagine that in every thread that you posted in (if you were black), someone constantly felt they had to say, "oh, it's another N----r ranting again..."

Ooh, I'm black.

And, seeing as I try to only make posts like
There's so much wrong with your arguments I don't know where to start...
First of all, setulon representing himself as an authority on the military offends my sensibilities. At 17, he/she has not even begun to experience the world and all it has to offer.

Second, Neo Art, I don't need to justify myself to you nor will I e-mail a scan of my DD-214 and that of my husband showing service to my country. I don't need to do so and I'm the one who went through six weeks of basic training and 52 weeks of tech school. You are making claims of which you know nothing about. Sounds to me as though you might be a little envious? I know nothing about you to say whether or not you ever served your country in any capacity other than to take.

Intangelon, I made friends off base everywhere I went. We lived on the economy, at first due to my husband's lower rank, and then because it was preferable to living in a cocooned society on base. I am still in touch with two people from other countries with whom I became friends (Germany and Japan), 20+ years later. Every place I went, I made a strong attempt to learn as much of the language as I could so as not to "burden" the local merchants with my english. (Push one for English...)

I do not present myself an an authority on the military but having "been there, done that" it would seem I know more about it than a 17 year old child who does their learning from the internet. I also have two children currently in the Army, one a helicopter pilot at Fort Rucker and the other stationed in Phoenix after becoming guard following his four years at Fort Braggat the end of his assignment working on the wall in Yuma, now on track to become a Border Patrol Agent.

once or twice a year, it probably wouldn't come up. I wouldn't use that as an excuse to not support what I say. Maybe as an excuse to not even enter the thread in the first place, but once I'm there I may as well go with it.

ok alright thats too far. Hotwife so you served well done and that should be respected. FINE. but either point out where you feel you have been flamed and complain to the mods or just shut it!

Go back in the thread and see where Neo Art flamed another military poster.

And Heikoku regularly derides the "101st Keyboard..."

It's insulting.

Go back in the thread and see where Neo Art flamed another military poster.

And Heikoku regularly derides the "101st Keyboard..."

It's insulting.

he did say "...and complain to the mods".

Ooh, I'm black.

And, seeing as I try to only make posts like

once or twice a year, it probably wouldn't come up. I wouldn't use that as an excuse to not support what I say. Maybe as an excuse to not even enter the thread in the first place, but once I'm there I may as well go with it.

I already posted earlier in the thread that the OP's assertion that a national health service is a good thing is fallacious - that people can't be forced to be healthy, no matter how many doctors they have.

And that fat people, smokers, and other unhealthy people can't be cured by a national health service.

No President can make you get off the couch and exercise.

So using that as an argument that the US is somehow not a good place to live is full of shit.

Understand? I don't have to make the argument that the US is the best place to live - I only have to shoot down the OP's assertion.

Which I've just done.

Your Military! Deal with it somehow. Bitching gets absolutely nothing done . . .as . . .you . . .should . . .know . . . .come on! Either start a new thread about it or complain to mods or take it up with those individuals in another forum (such as tgs) w/e but deal with it . . .please!

he did say "...and complain to the mods".

The mods will never address it. They are onboard with the insults - they don't see it as a problem.

I already posted earlier in the thread that the OP's assertion that a national health service is a good thing is fallacious - that people can't be forced to be healthy, no matter how many doctors they have.

And that fat people, smokers, and other unhealthy people can't be cured by a national health service.

No President can make you get off the couch and exercise.

So using that as an argument that the US is somehow not a good place to live is full of shit.

Understand? I don't have to make the argument that the US is the best place to live - I only have to shoot down the OP's assertion.

Which I've just done.
Is that your idea of an NHS? Obesity and smoking?

seriously? their not if you can back it up. they'll at least warn the others and anyway just try it you've got nothing to lose.

The mods will never address it. They are onboard with the insults - they don't see it as a problem.

All the mods?

First of all, setulon representing himself as an authority on the military offends my sensibilities. At 17, he/she has not even begun to experience the world and all it has to offer.

Yet he is in the Guard, or so he claimed.

Second, Neo Art, I don't need to justify myself to you nor will I e-mail a scan of my DD-214 and that of my husband showing service to my country. I don't need to do so and I'm the one who went through six weeks of basic training and 52 weeks of tech school. You are making claims of which you know nothing about. Sounds to me as though you might be a little envious? I know nothing about you to say whether or not you ever served your country in any capacity other than to take.

You don't need to mail anyone a scan of your DD-214. I scanned enough of them as a Recording Tech at my County Auditor's office (civil-served proudly, 1998-2001) to know that the Records Division of county auditors' offices (at least in WA) have them on file as public record. Many of those counties have them accessible online.

Intangelon, I made friends off base everywhere I went. We lived on the economy, at first due to my husband's lower rank, and then because it was preferable to living in a cocooned society on base. I am still in touch with two people from other countries with whom I became friends (Germany and Japan), 20+ years later. Every place I went, I made a strong attempt to learn as much of the language as I could so as not to "burden" the local merchants with my english. (Push one for English...)

Good of you. So what did you learn of the health care systems in Germany and Japan? What of the quality of life? Had you visited all over? Do you feel qualified to make that assessment in comparison to where you've lived in the US? I guess what I'm looking for is details.

I do not present myself an an authority on the military but having "been there, done that" it would seem I know more about it than a 17 year old child who does their learning from the internet. I also have two children currently in the Army, one a helicopter pilot at Fort Rucker and the other stationed in Phoenix after becoming guard following his four years at Fort Bragg at the end of his assignment working on the wall in Yuma, now on track to become a Border Patrol Agent.

Where'd you do Basic? Ft. Jackson?

Show them the size of a $600,000 house versus their $600,000 house, the price of gas and the general cost of living and your average middle class family is only going to see friends and family holding them back.

Right up until they see the cost of grandma's gall bladder surgery. A bigger house doesn't mean much if the mortgage holder is the only person to ever see the title.

You seriously are in this for the dissention you cause. You can't see the forest for the trees and there's no point in carrying on a kind of discussion with you at all. If you can't read simple English to see WHERE he claims to be part of the military's healthcare plan, then go back to you ESL classes and ask them to parse it for you.

"The dissention I cause"? Y'know, I'll go benefit of the doubt on this one and just repeat my earlier suggestion: relax. I'm not here to disparage your service in the military. I KNEW he claimed to be part of the health plan, I wanted to know where you got that he claimed to be ACTIVE DUTY. He didn't. Tell you what -- I'll let this one go if you will. Deal?

Neo thinks that people who say they are soldiers aren't, and if they are, he thinks that automatically disqualifies them from posting.

My DD-214 is available to anyone who wants a copy.

As mentioned above, nothing special. Most are public record.

I already posted earlier in the thread that the OP's assertion that a national health service is a good thing is fallacious - that people can't be forced to be healthy, no matter how many doctors they have.

And that fat people, smokers, and other unhealthy people can't be cured by a national health service.

No President can make you get off the couch and exercise.

So using that as an argument that the US is somehow not a good place to live is full of shit.

Understand? I don't have to make the argument that the US is the best place to live - I only have to shoot down the OP's assertion.

Which I've just done.
What??? Nationalized health care is not to "force you to be healthy" its to give EVERYONE the option. You have shot down nothing. And you did assert that the US of A is the best place in the world to live. Now Back It Up.

Show them the size of a $600,000 house versus their $600,000 house, the price of gas and the general cost of living and your average middle class family is only going to see friends and family holding them back.

What are you talking about? If anything a 600 000$ house in say . . .toronto is HUGE compared to one in newyork.

And you did assert that the US of A is the best place in the world to live. Now Back It Up.

We have a pretty flag :D

Imagine that in every thread that you posted in (if you were black), someone constantly felt they had to say, "oh, it's another N----r ranting again..."

Wow. Such a completely rotten analogy, even trying to call it that makes me queasy.

Go back in the thread and see where Neo Art flamed another military poster.

And Heikoku regularly derides the "101st Keyboard..."

It's insulting.

The truth only hurts when it should. No flames have been aimed at any military poster. I think the gain on your sensitivity channel is set too high -- you're looking for flames where none exist. "101st Keyboard" is a perfectly legitimate (and clever) tag for someone who claims a military background but doesn't really have one (or one of his own). Now, I don't know anything about yours, and I don't care to. I don't give a shit about anyone's military background unless the topic itself is military. And even then, the range of experiences in the armed forces has got to be fairly large.

You served? Thank you. You get my thanks. Not necessarily or automatically my respect. That's earned.

The mods will never address it. They are onboard with the insults - they don't see it as a problem.

Nice tinfoil hat talk there. The mods address legitimate flames. What you consider a flame because you've got your microscope out and what a mod considers a flame who's job is to consider the larger picture, are two different things.

We have a pretty flag :D

lol true that. . .though personally i Think the union Jack looks pretty cool too.

What are you talking about? If anything a 600 000$ house in say . . .toronto is HUGE compared to one in newyork.

Psst. New York isn't the whole USA. I know folks from there have a hard time with that. Folks from L.A., too. $600k in Bismarck, ND would buy a house that could accomodate the New York Yankees, and have it built to suit.

I already posted earlier in the thread that the OP's assertion that a national health service is a good thing is fallacious
One shouldn't use terms one doesn't understand.

that people can't be forced to be healthy, no matter how many doctors they have.
An NHS doesn't equate to extreme paternalism.

lol true that. . .though personally i Think the union Jack looks pretty cool too.

Indeed, I must agree. Every time I think of the Union Jack, I imagine two old fashioned wooden battleships hitting eachother with full broadsides.

Back in the day, the U.S. and England had some pretty epic naval battles.

Psst. New York isn't the whole USA. I know folks from there have a hard time with that. Folks from L.A., too. $600k in Bismarck, ND would buy a house that could accomodate the New York Yankees, and have it built to suit.

Yes and 600k in rural Saskatchewan would buy you a mansion twice its size. Your point is worthless. Lets see . . .hell you could probably BUY Zimbabwe for 600 000 USD

What are you talking about? If anything a 600 000$ house in say . . .toronto is HUGE compared to one in newyork.

That's not an apt comparison, no matter the nation. NY has some of the highest Costs of Living for any city in the world.

This is not a good source, but when I was in London I occasionally watched those househunting shows. People from what I assume to be middle class backrounds are being shown houses going for upwards of 300,000 Pounds. Compared to the US, a house like the ones being shown might go for $200,000. Might.

Yes and 600k in rural Saskatchewan would buy you a mansion twice its size. Your point is worthless. Lets see . . .hell you could probably BUY Zimbabwe for 600 000 USD

And you would want to why...?

=P

And you would want to why...?

=P

Rename it whatever you want?

But you've got to temper that with the view of the US that many in the UK (and other countries) have, of a socially backward, nuttily religious, red-neck, brash country that can't brew a good cup of tea.

All the living space and cheap-ass gas in the world won't convince you if you thinking your moving into Deliverance.

Perhaps, but many Britons go on holiday to the States and many people get such an interest in American films/music/whatever that they develop a second hand affection for it. So that can work both ways.

But maybe you're right and once the option of moving to sunny Florida is put on the table, the whining about the weather is revealed to be a great British bluff and really just another excuse to complain. Here's a suggestion for the replacement complaint: Britain's countryside is too green (And a suggested slogan: "What is this, Ireland!?").

But there are half a million Brits living in California alone iirc and that, needless to say, is without any such come-and-move-here-please-limeys plea.

Indeed, I must agree. Every time I think of the Union Jack, I imagine two old fashioned wooden battleships hitting eachother with full broadsides.

Back in the day, the U.S. and England had some pretty epic naval battles.

Exactly! Thank you! Though for me its been the battle of Trafalgar :D and maybe the battle of Britain too.

That's not an apt comparison, no matter the nation. NY has some of the highest Costs of Living for any city in the world.

This is not a good source, but when I was in London I occasionally watched those househunting shows. People from what I assume to be middle class backrounds are being shown houses going for upwards of 300,000 Pounds. Compared to the US, a house like the ones being shown might go for $200,000. Might.
This was my point! he was trying to argue that the states is better cause you can buy a bigger house there!!! frankly that argument is pointless!

Yes and 600k in rural Saskatchewan would buy you a mansion twice its size. Your point is worthless. Lets see . . .hell you could probably BUY Zimbabwe for 600 000 USD

Uh...you said that housing prices would keep Britons from moving, and I presumed you used NYC to make that point. My point is that $600k can buy you quite a nice place in a lot of the US. Your point only works in selected areas.

Rename it whatever you want?

I'd got for rodhesia. recreate a much large version of the selous scouts and then proceed to wipe the earth with the rest of the military dictatorships in Africa.

This was my point! he was trying to argue that the states is better cause you can buy a bigger house there!!! frankly that argument is pointless!

Cost of living is, evidently, less. That can be a reason. Real Estate too. As I said, British real estate is, by American standards, massively overpriced. A middle class home in the US does not cost half a million dollars.

This was my point! he was trying to argue that the states is better cause you can buy a bigger house there!!! frankly that argument is pointless!

"He" was trying to argue that people from the UK would find drastically lower house prices attractive (and they would).

Rename it whatever you want?

Mwahaha. I like the way you think.

Exactly! Thank you! Though for me its been the battle of Trafalgar :D and maybe the battle of Britain too.

Oh, for sure. Trafalgar was brilliant, and I think the RAF in the Battle of Britain demonstrated a level of courage almost inhuman.

But I've always been a fan of the battle between HMS Java and the USS Constitution. Old Ironsides is a favorite of mine.

Uh...you said that housing prices would keep Britons from moving, and I presumed you used NYC to make that point. My point is that $600k can buy you quite a nice place in a lot of the US. Your point only works in selected areas.

what . . .no I didn't???? Someone else (maybe you) claimed that the US was such a great place to live because you could buy a much bigger house there which is frankly a stupid argument to make

Perhaps, but many Britons go on holiday to the States and many people get such an interest in American films/music/whatever that they develop a second hand affection for it. So that can work both ways.
Oh sure, for every person grumbling about Yanksville, there's fifteen others chugging down Coca Cola and streaming the next ep of American Idol.

But maybe you're right and once the option of moving to sunny Florida is put on the table, the whining about the weather is revealed to be a great British bluff and really just another excuse to complain.
I genuinely couldn't live in a climate like that of Florida.

Just not damp enough.

Here's a suggestion for the replacement complaint: Britain's countryside is too green (And a suggested slogan: "What is this, Ireland!?").
I like it!

When? After Cornwallis had his ass kicked all over the southern colonies?

Yes, Cornwallis was a failure. But given the relative size and strength of England they could have possibly sent another army with a better general. Or continued with the war of 1812, and maybe even sent Wellington or someone after the defeat of France at Waterloo.

Yes and 600k in rural Saskatchewan would buy you a mansion twice its size. Your point is worthless. Lets see . . .hell you could probably BUY Zimbabwe for 600 000 USD

Actually with the exchange rate, 600K in Sasketchewan and 600K in Dakota are probably equivalent. And I wouldn't want to live in either.

Mwahaha. I like the way you think.



Oh, for sure. Trafalgar was brilliant, and I think the RAF in the Battle of Britain demonstrated a level of courage almost inhuman.

But I've always been a fan of the battle between HMS Java and the USS Constitution. Old Ironsides is a favorite of mine.

true very very true. The only people I hold more respect for are the Spartans. (militarily that is)

what . . .no I didn't???? Someone else (maybe you) claimed that the US was such a great place to live because you could buy a much bigger house there which is frankly a stupid argument to make

If being able to afford a big house without winning the lottery is high on your priority list, then the United States is a good place to be.

If being able to afford a big house without winning the lottery is high on your priority list, then the United States is a good place to be.

Particular spots in the U.S, aye. My house actually did cost half a million...

Actually with the exchange rate, 600K in Sasketchewan and 600K in Dakota are probably equivalent. And I wouldn't want to live in either.

lol good point (on not wanting to live in either) but property value (and btw 1usd= aprox. 1 CAD) in Saskatchewan is less than Dakota.

what . . .no I didn't???? Someone else (maybe you) claimed that the US was such a great place to live because you could buy a much bigger house there which is frankly a stupid argument to make

Weren't me.

But while you're on the subject, why is that a stupid argument to make? It might be low on the list, but I'm sure it'd be relevant to some people. I don't know about housing costs in the UK, but if it's anything like the US, there are some places where $600k wouldn't cover the garage, and NYC is one of them, here.

Y'know what, we're so far off from the post you quoted that started this sub-thread. Let's skip it.

If being able to afford a big house without winning the lottery is high on your priority list, then the United States is a good place to be.

no its really really not. if were talking shear size then go to some third world shithole and make yourself a castle. If you want size AND location Canada(within an hour of Toronto or Ottawa you can find REALLY cheap property) or rural Britain. Just location . . .France maybe? thats a matter of opinion.

lol good point (on not wanting to live in either) but property value (and btw 1usd= aprox. 1 CAD) in Saskatchewan is less than Dakota.

Property value is a reaction to desireability (among other factors such as land space). People want to live in California/New York/Toronto, so there is more competition for the houses in those markets. So basically you just said that Sasketchewan is worse than the Dakotas. :)

true very very true. The only people I hold more respect for are the Spartans. (militarily that is)

Not so sure. Don't missunderstand me, I respect their culture, but tactics? Greek battle tactics were form phalanx. Charge. Be exhausted in fifteen minutes. Who killed the most?

The difference was, the Spartans played to the psychology. They would all wear massive plumes on their helmets, making them seem even bigger than they were, and instead of running, they would slowly shuffle forward, giving the enemy time to be afraid.
Add to that they always had a piper/drummer playing?

The enemy were shitting themselves before the fight began.

I'm about to make another thread about this...

Particular spots in the U.S, aye. My house actually did cost half a million...

Rich kid. But you're black. The elevendyninth amendment says that black people can't be rich.

*does not compute*

I'd say outside of major urban areas, it's pretty easy to get a decent house for a decent cost. Especially with the buyers market we have now.

Weren't me.

But while you're on the subject, why is that a stupid argument to make? It might be low on the list, but I'm sure it'd be relevant to some people. I don't know about housing costs in the UK, but if it's anything like the US, there are some places where $600k wouldn't cover the garage, and NYC is one of them, here.

Y'know what, we're so far off from the post you quoted that started this sub-thread. Let's skip it.

lol agreed . . .tho All that was stupid is the Idea that a low house price=a good place to live . . .you need to add qualifiers of Some kind (such as a low house price in an urban environment). But ya its over lol

no its really really not. if were talking shear size then go to some third world shithole and make yourself a castle. If you want size AND location Canada(within an hour of Toronto or Ottawa you can find REALLY cheap property) or rural Britain. Just location . . .France maybe? thats a matter of opinion.

But we're not comparing those two. We are comparing property prices in the UK and in the United States. And, for pure economics, the US wins that one.

I'd got for rodhesia. recreate a much large version of the selous scouts and then proceed to wipe the earth with the rest of the military dictatorships in Africa.

From Saskatchewan?

Cost of living is, evidently, less. That can be a reason. Real Estate too. As I said, British real estate is, by American standards, massively overpriced. A middle class home in the US does not cost half a million dollars.

Uh, it certainly can. San Francisco/Palo Alto, L.A./Orange County, Seattle, NYC greater metro, Chicago, most of the larger cities, especially where the economy hasn't slowed much.

I genuinely couldn't live in a climate like that of Florida.

Just not damp enough.

:eek: What are you, part fern?

Actually with the exchange rate, 600K in Sasketchewan and 600K in Dakota are probably equivalent. And I wouldn't want to live in either.

Your loss. I rather enjoyed the place -- especially most of the people.

If being able to afford a big house without winning the lottery is high on your priority list, then the United States is a good place to be.

Again, location, location, location.

lol good point (on not wanting to live in either) but property value (and btw 1usd= aprox. 1 CAD) in Saskatchewan is less than Dakota.

That depends. Fargo vs. Brandon? Brandon's cheaper. Bismarck vs. Winnipeg, Bismarck's cheaper. You are mostly correct, though. Anywhere near the Bakken Formation (Williston, e.g.) is going to shoot up quickly.

Cost of living is, evidently, less. That can be a reason. Real Estate too. As I said, British real estate is, by American standards, massively overpriced. A middle class home in the US does not cost half a million dollars.

depends entriely on what area. down town London vs. Texas hell ya. The highlands vs. texas no . . .

Rich kid. But you're black. The elevendyninth amendment says that black people can't be rich.

*does not compute*

I'd say outside of major urban areas, it's pretty easy to get a decent house for a decent cost. Especially with the buyers market we have now.

I'm one of the more bizarre people in existence, I admit. Not nearly as much as my rich black Jew friend, though.

And, aye, the half million is what we tried to sell it for, failed miserably.

From Saskatchewan?



lol no Zimbabwe lmao

but We're Not Comparing Those Two. We Are Comparing Property Prices In The Uk And In The United States. And, For Pure Economics, The Us Wins That One.

Location

Intangelon: It's not about the people, I'm sure they're cool. But as a warm-weather loving Southerner, the idea of going somewhere where the temperature goes below 0 F or C, inspires a level of fear in me normally reserved for things like poisonous snakes, drive-bys, or IRS agents.

Again, location, location, location.


Generally speaking, of course. There are many places in the US just as expensive if not more expensive then Britian. What I am saying, however, is that if you compare two randomly selected 2 bed, 2 bath houses in the US and UK, the house in the US usually comes out on top in purely economic terms.

Not so sure. Don't missunderstand me, I respect their culture, but tactics? Greek battle tactics were form phalanx. Charge. Be exhausted in fifteen minutes. Who killed the most?

The difference was, the Spartans played to the psychology. They would all wear massive plumes on their helmets, making them seem even bigger than they were, and instead of running, they would slowly shuffle forward, giving the enemy time to be afraid.
Add to that they always had a piper/drummer playing?

The enemy were shitting themselves before the fight began.

I'm about to make another thread about this...
True (about tactics) but on their terrain they were masters. On and the biggest difference with the Spartan's was the fact that they operated as A Unit . . .a concept pretty much unheard of in other parts of the world even to this day(not all other parts just most) as well as the fact that seeing a hundred person line lower spears overarm all at the same time and slowly walk towards you would be freaky as hell. . Do it! for the other thread that is.

Generally speaking, of course. There are many places in the US just as expensive if not more expensive then Britian. What I am saying, however, is that if you compare two randomly selected 2 bed, 2 bath houses in the US and UK, the house in the US usually comes out on top in purely economic terms.

I'm not so sure. alot of 2 bedroom 2 bathroom houses in GB would be located outside major cities and thus actually less expensive but i get the point.

I'm not so sure. alot of 2 bedroom 2 bathroom houses in GB would be located outside major cities and thus actually less expensive but i get the point.

How expensive would they be?

Intangelon: It's not about the people, I'm sure they're cool. But as a warm-weather loving Southerner, the idea of going somewhere where the temperature goes below 0 F or C, inspires a level of fear in me normally reserved for things like poisonous snakes, drive-bys, or IRS agents.

I moved from Seattle three years ago. If I can get used to a week every year of -30F, and the attendant absence of humidity (which was actually really good for my skin, being the oily bastard that I am), anyone can. I got to pour out a cup of hot coffee and watch its contents bounce.

Solution to the England vs. U.S. location thing....

Compare cities with the same name!

Birmingham, Britain vs. Birmingham, Alabama
Glasgow, Scotland vs. Glasgow, Kentucky
New York, New York, vs. (Old) York, Britain.

The possibilities are endless!!1!*

Note: possibilities not actually endless.

How expensive would they be?

ooo thats cruel . . .making me do research at 11:52 pm :( aight let me get back to you

Solution to the England vs. U.S. location thing....

Compare cities with the same name!

Birmingham, Britain vs. Birmingham, Alabama
Glasgow, Scotland vs. Glasgow, Kentucky
New York, New York, vs. (Old) York, Britain.

The possibilities are endless!!1!*

Legal Disclaimer: possibilities not actually endless.

Fixed :D

I'm not so sure. alot of 2 bedroom 2 bathroom houses in GB would be located outside major cities and thus actually less expensive but i get the point.

My parents live in a middle class neighbourhood in West London. I don't want to say it's a suburb because that has a different meaning in America, but it's certainly not central London. They live in a terraced 3 bedroom house. Last year a neighbour sold his house for more than $1.2million. I know what you can buy in a similar area in "expensive" Los Angeles for $1.2million and it's a hell of a lot more than that.

And just to clear things up: I was the original "house price" guy you quoted and I certainly don't think that house prices make America the greatest country on earth - I was using to describe why some people in the UK would find a move to the US attractive.

ooo thats cruel . . .making me do research at 11:52 pm :( aight let me get back to you

It took me two minutes on google and a local real estate site.

I'll be waiting.

ahhhh i think I missed your point. Just FYI my grandmother lives in a three story house just outside Glasgow which she could sell for around 400 000 USD (about 200 000 pounds) its 5 bedroom plus kitchen dinning room and 2 living rooms as well as a back yard. and is fully detached.

You yanks really make me laugh.
America's not that bad. I'm an English citizen, but I live in America at the moment.
I mean, you lot like to whine your little heads off about the darndest things. It really gets bloody annoying.
There are opportunities and national treasures in the States that I wish I could say I could find back in England. =/

But really, I daresay. If you don't like the States, why don't you get the fuck out? No ones holding your arses here.
Canada's a stones throw away, and everyone's accepted in Australia. I heard they're paying for immigration.
If your lives really suck arse that much, then change it.
It's not the yank government's fault that you happen to be a whiny little tart full of hatred toward your own people. Go out a make a difference, if it really matters to you!

I do love your country. It's very... unique.

For those of you on this threat supporting the goo' old US of A, kudos!
There's absolutely NO point in sitting around, ranting into a computer screen about how horribly bad life for you is in the oppressed, nazified US of A.
If you don't like it, change it or get the hell out.

As Phillip DeFranco says, "Hell, at least we're [Americans] not Mexico."

I see. I'm still waiting for a 2 bed 2 bath.

to give you an idea of the range
South East
£263,740
Northern Ireland
£250,586
South West
£225,348
East Anglia
£202,730
West Midlands
£170,342
East Midlands
£163,668
Yorks & Humber
£154,729
North West
£154,423

Scotland
150,257
North
£143,251

2 Bed, 2 Bath, Charlotte (Pronounced Char-Lot, not like that pansy ass British queen) for $81,000 US.

to give you an idea of the range
South East
£263,740
Northern Ireland
£250,586
South West
£225,348
East Anglia
£202,730
West Midlands
£170,342
East Midlands
£163,668
Yorks & Humber
£154,729
North West
£154,423

Scotland
150,257
North
£143,251

Link? Not that we don't trust you and all, but....Link?

Also 150,000 Pounds = $290,000 Canadian and U.S. For $290,000 I could get a 4 bedroom/3 Bath in the suburbs of Birmingham or Atlanta and have change. Probably.

2 Bed, 2 Bath, Charlotte (Pronounced Char-Lot, not like that pansy ass British queen) for $81,000 US.

Charlotte, N.C., or the one just South of Lansing on I-69?

Charlotte, N.C., or the one just South of Lansing on I-69?

The one south of Lansing.

Location: Etowah County, Alabama
Estimated median house/condo value in 2005: $90,508

Link: http://www.city-data.com/county/Etowah_County-AL.html

Comparing home prices and the like directly with exchange rates really doesn't make much sense. You have to take purchasing power, median salary, etc. into account. Median salary in the US is around $39,000, while in the UK it's about £34,000 (about $68,000), e.g. 74% greater. Therefore, purchasing-power wise, a £190,000 ($380,000) house in UK for an average (or, rather, median) citizen would be about as affordable as a $220,000 house in the US for an average US citizen.

Alrigh I see everyone is talking about prices and stuff, so what I'm about to say may throw everyone off a bit.

I think life in the USA is great because its my home. Just like how someone in Britian may think that life in Britian is great because its his/her home.

Its my motherland, its my homeland. When my grandparents were stuck during Mao's Cultural Leap Backwards, the USA opened its arms and allowed them to come in and I love the USA to death because of that.

In short, although I may be wrong, I think most people in their heart's heart, believe the home they were born in, is a great one. Especially when we know that there are third-world countries out there. The very fact that we can even take the time to argue about house prices shows how nice life is. Some people in other countries have to argue about food prices...rather then how many bedrooms you can get with this "___" amount of money

Yes, many just take it for granted.

Comparing home prices and the like directly with exchange rates really doesn't make much sense. You have to take purchasing power, median salary, etc. into account. Median salary in the US is around $39,000, while in the UK it's about £34,000 (about $68,000), e.g. 74% greater. Therefore, purchasing-power wise, a £190,000 ($380,000) house in UK for an average (or, rather, median) citizen would be about as affordable as a $220,000 house in the US for an average US citizen.

Who are you, and why are you bringing logic into this threadjack full of foolishness?:eek:

Yes, many just take it for granted.

And I guess i'm not the only one who takes the current thread discussion for granted. I mean, who gives a flying fuck about home prices?!

Comparing home prices and the like directly with exchange rates really doesn't make much sense. You have to take purchasing power, median salary, etc. into account. Median salary in the US is around $39,000, while in the UK it's about £34,000 (about $68,000), e.g. 74% greater. Therefore, purchasing-power wise, a £190,000 ($380,000) house in UK for an average (or, rather, median) citizen would be about as affordable as a $220,000 house in the US for an average US citizen.

yeah. the US is looking like a bargain because of the weak dollar. its distorts the differences between the UK and the US.

on the other hand, if you have a wad of cash (in pounds) and want to move to the US, now is the time.

Yes, life in the US is good. You should see the line of people waiting to get in.

Even if they gave me 1.000.000 Euro, I wouldn't do that.

Comparing home prices and the like directly with exchange rates really doesn't make much sense. You have to take purchasing power, median salary, etc. into account. Median salary in the US is around $39,000, while in the UK it's about £34,000 (about $68,000), e.g. 74% greater. Therefore, purchasing-power wise, a £190,000 ($380,000) house in UK for an average (or, rather, median) citizen would be about as affordable as a $220,000 house in the US for an average US citizen.

I'm pretty sure you've overestimated the median UK salary fairly heavily. I thought it was around £25,000 but this is the only link I could come up with:
Household income (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#International_comparison)

Having a health service doesn't mean you're healthy.

If you're sedentary, eating four Big Macs a day, and swilling a case of Budweiser to wash it down, while chain smoking Marlboros, you could have a doctor standing by your side and you wouldn't live very long.

And no President is going to make a 340 pound man or woman get off the damned couch and exercise. Or make them stop putting Sara Lee in their piehole.

Your imagining that "the government can solve every problem, if only we nationalize things and increase the spending". It doesn't work that way.

Hot Wife's sense just gave me a Chumblywumbly.

There'll always be rulers and subjects, oppressors and oppressed, etc. The worthiness/excuseability of domination is how much is gained from it. The more minimal the amount of power/wealth the top dog takes the better b/c willing trades are more efficient than forced extraction, leaving more capability left after an exchange so more/greater exchanges can be made. Central banks work to refine their extraction so more wealth is concentrated in their hands -not by trade but by theft so those they rule (including themselves) overall are profiting/increasing at decreasing rates versus our potential expansion.

Show them the size of a $600,000 house versus their $600,000 house, the price of gas and the general cost of living and your average middle class family is only going to see friends and family holding them back.

Not really. Most of the people I know back home don't really want to live in America. To be honest, those I know that are talking about emigration, are talking about Australia.

Link? Not that we don't trust you and all, but....Link?

Also 150,000 Pounds = $290,000 Canadian and U.S. For $290,000 I could get a 4 bedroom/3 Bath in the suburbs of Birmingham or Atlanta and have change. Probably.

r google houesing prices scotland . . .lol i think its the first link lmao