NationStates Jolt Archive

note: I'm not sure if religious proclamation is the best way to put it, but I haven't thought of a better way to say it.

Now, I'm a vegetarian because I made a personal choice to avoid eating meat. I also refuse unnecessary inoculations (i.e. for things I'm unlikely to get/that aren't life threatening to have et c) which contain gelatin. While I'm not too picky, I prefer it if my food doesn't come into contact with meat, at least not extensively, but I'll usually deal with it if it's not too bad and I'm hungry.

I have got much flack for this from people generally have no business being angry at me for my food choices when all I do is ask if something has meat, or occasionally at restaurants, if I ask for a meal option with the meat either held off the plate entirely or even put on a side plate so I can give it to someone else.

I have also had people harass me because I refused to get the flu vaccine (gelatin... although I laughed when one person was out sick with "flu-like symptoms" for a week after getting vaccinated and I didn't get sick at all)...

Yet when someone refuses to get a vaccine or eat a particular food due to religious reasons, they get a free pass. The conversation tends to go like this "hey, want some bacon?" "no, I'm Jewish" "ok" but for me it goes "hey, want some bacon?", "no, I don't eat meat", "why?", "<insert long explanation>", "but it's bacon, it's delicious" *shoves food under my nose* et c... it's gotten to the point where I've started to think of telling people I'm Hindu, Buddhist or Jain (not so much the last one since I kill too many bugs...) so they'll leave me alone when I say that I don't eat meat.

I mean, at least I've gone through and considered my eating habits thoughtfully instead of just subscribing to a particular doctrine which dictates what I can and cannot eat. Why can't people let me eat my veggies in peace?

On-topic:

Because religion > personal choice obviously to most people. If you choose to not eat something because you don't want to, you're being picky. If your religion tells you not to eat something you're adhering to your religious code. It also has something to do with the amount of "backup": Your opinion vs. institution of thousands.

Off-topic:

Personally though, I don't get vegetarians, at least not the ones that are veggies because "animals have feelings too!" and "killing animals is horrible!" These - usually - teenager girls who apparently haven't noticed that most animals kill each other for sustenance :rolleyes:

Then again I think that as long as there's hunger in the world anyone refusing to eat something they're offered deserves a nice hard punch in their face, as well as one-way ticket to 3rd world country of their choice.

occasionally at restaurants, if I ask for a meal option with the meat either held off the plate entirely or even put on a side plate so I can give it to someone else. Can't you just order a meat-less dish?

I have also had people harass me because I refused to get the flu vaccine (gelatin...
Now that's just silly.


I mean, at least I've gone through and considered my eating habits thoughtfully
I'm not sure of that.

Why can't people let me eat my veggies in peace?
1. Sometimes, because they're stupid.
2. Sometimes, because you're making a big deal of food having had contact with meat.

Then again I think that as long as there's hunger in the world anyone refusing to eat something they're offered deserves a nice hard punch in their face, as well as one-way ticket to 3rd world country of their choice.
And those who never refuse to eat something they're offered deserve a free liposuction?

I want the long description!!!! why don't u eat meat???
*takes out carrot*
*Waves carrot under nose*
*realizes carrot is not meat*
* . . . .*
*:headbang:*

And those who never refuse to eat something they're offered deserve a free liposuction?

Mainly meant it as "refuse because they don't like it". Should have written more clearly ;)

Yet when someone refuses to get a vaccine or eat a particular food due to religious reasons, they get a free pass. The conversation tends to go like this "hey, want some bacon?" "no, I'm Jewish" "ok" but for me it goes "hey, want some bacon?", "no, I don't eat meat", "why?", "<insert long explanation>", "but it's bacon, it's delicious" *shoves food under my nose* et c...

It isn't always like that in either instance. I've certainly seen the "but it's yummy!" in response to orthodox Jews or Muslims turning down pork products. It's usually in jest, but it is there.

That said, I don't really care what others eat unless I'm cooking, in which case I'll do what I can to make sure everyone has plenty to eat. It's not completely unknown at my house for one guest to be eating chicken while the rest of us eat ham or something, and I'm sure I could do the same with a veggie dish as well.

Can't you just order a meat-less dish?
If one's available, I do. Sometimes my non-vegetarian friends suggest we go places and I discover that they don't have anything, sometimes I get invited to weddings where the catering service has three meal options, all of which have meat, opening with a ceasar salad (bacon bits, anchovies in the dressing) and a gelatin based dessert. Some places are accommodating, others are not.

Now that's just silly.

How so? It's dead animal and if I get the flu then I'm sick for a week and I'm fine. It's not like the flu vaccine even covers you for all strains of the virus either, just the one that they think is most likely to be around that year.

I'm not sure of that.

Uh... thanks, I'm not an adult who makes reasonable decisions for myself, I'm clearly an idiot. What was I thinking?

1. Sometimes, because they're stupid.
2. Sometimes, because you're making a big deal of food having had contact with meat.
I don't make a big deal of it unless it's absolutely covered, thanks.

um . . .y don't you eat meat though?

On-topic:

Because religion > personal choice obviously to most people. If you choose to not eat something because you don't want to, you're being picky. If your religion tells you not to eat something you're adhering to your religious code. It also has something to do with the amount of "backup": Your opinion vs. institution of thousands.

I guess religious people can also get away with discrimination lawsuits better...?

Personally though, I don't get vegetarians, at least not the ones that are veggies because "animals have feelings too!" and "killing animals is horrible!" These - usually - teenager girls who apparently haven't noticed that most animals kill each other for sustenance :rolleyes:

I'm a vegetarian for a couple of reasons. One of which has to do with the fact that we live in a society where meat consumption is unnecessary to survival (if I can live without increasing the demand for dead animals, why shouldn't I?) and the practices of the meat industry are unnecessarily cruel...

Then again I think that as long as there's hunger in the world anyone refusing to eat something they're offered deserves a nice hard punch in their face, as well as one-way ticket to 3rd world country of their choice.

...and the other is environmental whereby, if meat consumption was reduced, more people could be fed using less farmland and energy.

Those are the main reasons anyways.

How so? It's dead animal and if I get the flu then I'm sick for a week and I'm fine. So you prefer getting sick for a week rather than having a gram of gelatin?

Uh... thanks, I'm not an adult who makes reasonable decisions for myself, I'm clearly an idiot. What was I thinking?
I doubt that it's a reasonable and rational decision to avoid even a smallest touch of meat at nearly any cost.

If you think it's reasonable, what are the reasons?

Your post is partly flawed.
Whenever someone has offered me pig products, shellfish, dairy and meat together, or anything so combined that would violate the laws of Kashrut, I always get the "But its yummy!" or "So what?" or something similar.
(unless I am with other jews)

I guess religious people can also get away with discrimination lawsuits better...?



I'm a vegetarian for a couple of reasons. One of which has to do with the fact that we live in a society where meat consumption is unnecessary to survival (if I can live without increasing the demand for dead animals, why shouldn't I?) and the practices of the meat industry are unnecessarily cruel...



...and the other is environmental whereby, if meat consumption was reduced, more people could be fed using less farmland and energy.

Those are the main reasons anyways.
er . . .meat consumption is only unnecessary for survival if you happen to be fairly well off (ie. middle/upper middle class). Most people (and I know three personally) either can't or don't want to realize exactly how much damage you can do to yourself by not eating meat. As to the second thats mostly agricultural bullshit. Looks good on the books but not actually feasible . Most grazing land is not suitable for crops and while crops occupy less land they are 1)seasonal and 2) must be left fallow for quite a while (usually 1 year in four tho it varies) meaning a large portion of this land would not be usable at one time.

Personally though, I don't get vegetarians, at least not the ones that are veggies because "animals have feelings too!" and "killing animals is horrible!" These - usually - teenager girls who apparently haven't noticed that most animals kill each other for sustenance :rolleyes:

Yes, they do. However, a lion attacking and killing a gazelle for food is not quite the same as what we human beings do in terms of breeding, "housing" and butchering animals. My mother is also a vegetarian and she has not been a teenage girl for quite a long time.

Then again I think that as long as there's hunger in the world anyone refusing to eat something they're offered deserves a nice hard punch in their face, as well as one-way ticket to 3rd world country of their choice.

That's maybe the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

"Here, I made balut for you!"
"Oh, thank you so much, but I don't eat meat."
"What the fuck? There are people starving in other countries and you won't eat a duck fetus? If you don't eat it those people will die!"

Can't you just order a meat-less dish?

While most restaurants have something meatless on the menu, some don't. It's not a big deal to ask for something without meat; people ask for changes due to diets ("I'll have it on the side") and personal preference ("medium-rare") all the time.

er . . .meat consumption is only unnecessary for survival if you happen to be fairly well off (ie. middle/upper middle class). Most people (and I know three personally) either can't or don't want to realize exactly how much damage you can do to yourself by not eating meat. As to the second thats mostly agricultural bullshit. Looks good on the books but not actually feasible . Most grazing land is not suitable for crops and while crops occupy less land they are 1)seasonal and 2) must be left fallow for quite a while (usually 1 year in four tho it varies) meaning a large portion of this land would not be usable at one time.

I know MANY people who are vegetarians who are not at all "well off". In fact, the reason my mother (a vegetarian for 35 years) originally stopped eating meat was because she was very poor and meat was too expensive.

So you prefer getting sick for a week rather than having a gram of gelatin?

When the odds of me coming down with "flu like symptoms" after getting the vaccine exist and with the pretty low odds of me getting the flu, yeah. I haven't got it since I was like 12 (before I was vegetarian).

I doubt that it's a reasonable and rational decision to avoid even a smallest touch of meat at nearly any cost.

Well, I've kinda got to the point where I find the taste to be pretty gross.
And also, I generally have mixed feelings about ingesting the juices from dead animals, even if it's incidental.

If you think it's reasonable, what are the reasons?

See my earlier post.

yes./ I know many people who are not "well off" and have sever dietary complications due too (for example) lack of protein. (I was responding to the claim that "in our society you don't have to eat meat to be healthy" and was responding that quite a few of us actually do.)

So you prefer getting sick for a week rather than having a gram of gelatin?


I doubt that it's a reasonable and rational decision to avoid even a smallest touch of meat at nearly any cost.

If you think it's reasonable, what are the reasons?

Which is clearly exactly what the OP said. "I avoid even the smallest touch of meat at any costs! I have been known to throw small children in front of an impending steak to protect my morals!" :rolleyes:

Why does anyone have to explain their food preferences? I'm sure there's food you don't care for, should you have to justify every choice?

in real life no. on NSG hell ya! :D

While most restaurants have something meatless on the menu, some don't. It's not a big deal to ask for something without meat; people ask for changes due to diets ("I'll have it on the side") and personal preference ("medium-rare") all the time.

From what I've seen, it's harder to find a vegan dish than it is to find a vegetarian one. I worked at a Tex-Mex restaurant for a while and it was hardest catering to the vegans who occasionally came in. There were basically two dishes they could have, and even those were special orders.

yes./ I know many people who are not "well off" and have sever dietary complications due too (for example) lack of protein. (I was responding to the claim that "in our society you don't have to eat meat to be healthy" and was responding that quite a few of us actually do.)

Okay, those people don't eat a healthy diet. So? That has nothing to do with whether or not people need meat to live. There are people who eat meat who also have severe dietary complications. The two needn't be connected.

er . . .meat consumption is only unnecessary for survival if you happen to be fairly well off (ie. middle/upper middle class).

Au contraire, meat is much more expensive than eating a vegetarian diet. I went shopping with a former roommate once when we had access to a car (i.e. we were able to stock up instead of only buying what we could carry) I bought more food which lasted me longer for half the price because she bought some meats and I didn't. It's not just anecdotal either, if you browse the web for tips on reducing grocery bills, planning fewer meals with meat in them is generally one of the top tips (along with making a list, planning meals and not shopping hungry).

Most people (and I know three personally) either can't or don't want to realize exactly how much damage you can do to yourself by not eating meat.

Every doctor I've seen seems to consider me perfectly healthy (granted I could use to get a bit more exercise, but who can't?).

As to the second thats mostly agricultural bullshit. Looks good on the books but not actually feasible . Most grazing land is not suitable for crops and while crops occupy less land they are 1)seasonal and 2) must be left fallow for quite a while (usually 1 year in four tho it varies) meaning a large portion of this land would not be usable at one time.

Check what your food eats. Most meat ends up being grain fed, so a large number of fields are being used to grow food which is then shipped off to be fed to animals which are then shipped off and slaughtered then shipped off again to be distributed to supermarkets.

wha? diet and dietary deficiency are not connected????? not eating meat and having protein deficiency are connected... directly and generally people who eat meat don't have dietary deficiency problems (its usually the other way round. IE. they will have problems with having too much of certain nutrients and or fats/proteins/sugars etc. .)

From what I've seen, it's harder to find a vegan dish than it is to find a vegetarian one. I worked at a Tex-Mex restaurant for a while and it was hardest catering to the vegans who occasionally came in. There were basically two dishes they could have, and even those were special orders.

Agreed. My best friend is a vegan and sometimes has a hard time finding things at restaurants she can eat. If someone came into a steakhouse, or even your average U.S. diner, demanding a vegan meal, it might be quite a pain.

yes./ I know many people who are not "well off" and have sever dietary complications due too (for example) lack of protein. (I was responding to the claim that "in our society you don't have to eat meat to be healthy" and was responding that quite a few of us actually do.)
First of all, if these people are just skipping meat and not eating substitutes (i.e. legumes, beans, tofu) then they're going to have problems. It's not like I eat a normal omnivorous diet, just without meat, that would be the most bland, boring diet ever. Instead I have a cupboard with dried beans ($1 a bag and make several meals when paired with relatively simple ingredients and spices) and I experiment with various mixtures of these beans, different veggies, different spices, paired, whatever sauces I come up with... and my grocery bills are generally under $20 a week (unless I buy toilet paper at the grocery store...).

Agreed. My best friend is a vegan and sometimes has a hard time finding things at restaurants she can eat. If someone came into a steakhouse, or even your average U.S. diner, demanding a vegan meal, it might be quite a pain.

I knew a girl who tried to get a vegan meal at a Waffle House once. I'm sure you can imagine how that went over. I'm not sure you can get a glass of water there that isn't greasy.

When the odds of me coming down with "flu like symptoms" after getting the vaccine exist and with the pretty low odds of me getting the flu, yeah. Then it's about the vaccine, not gelatin.


And also, I generally have mixed feelings about ingesting the juices from dead animals, even if it's incidental. You surely have pretty... naive, or maybe idealized, views on things. There are much worse things out there.


See my earlier post.
(if I can live without increasing the demand for dead animals, why shouldn't I?)
if meat consumption was reduced, more people could be fed using less farmland and energy.
You reduce the demand for meat by not ordering a meaty dish and not buying meat.
You DON'T reduce the demand for meat by refusing a vaccine containing a gram of gelatin, or by throwing the meat out of your plate.

wha? diet and dietary deficiency are not connected????? not eating meat and having protein deficiency are connected... directly and generally people who eat meat don't have dietary deficiency problems (its usually the other way round. IE. they will have problems with having too much of certain nutrients and or fats/proteins/sugars etc. .)

1. I never said diet and dietary deficiency are not connected. I said vegetarianism and dietary deficiency are not necessarily connected.

2. As for your assertion that people who eat meat "generally don't have dietary deficiency problems": that is a plain and open lie. I will give you a chance to alter your statement.

3. There are many sources of protein that do not come from meat. Dairy products, nuts, soy beans and avocados are all excellent sources of protein.

4. Your membership date is from 2005. Please learn to use the quote feature.

Au contraire, meat is much more expensive than eating a vegetarian diet. I went shopping with a former roommate once when we had access to a car (i.e. we were able to stock up instead of only buying what we could carry) I bought more food which lasted me longer for half the price because she bought some meats and I didn't. It's not just anecdotal either, if you browse the web for tips on reducing grocery bills, planning fewer meals with meat in them is generally one of the top tips (along with making a list, planning meals and not shopping hungry).



Every doctor I've seen seems to consider me perfectly healthy (granted I could use to get a bit more exercise, but who can't?).



Check what your food eats. Most meat ends up being grain fed, so a large number of fields are being used to grow food which is then shipped off to be fed to animals which are then shipped off and slaughtered then shipped off again to be distributed to supermarkets.

1)true but cutting back on meat=/= cutting out meat. If your not so well off your best beet is not vegetarianism as you probably wont be able to afford either the dietary supplements you need to live or the rather expensive vegetables that you would need to eat in large quantities to replace vitamins and nutrients found naturally in meat. Secondly it depends on what you buying. A 20$v (and usually much less) rump roast will last a person over a week (including lunch etc.) if your ALSO having vegetables. then you actually get more out of less money for both the meat and the vegetables .

2)you=quite well off yes? therefore you CAN afford to take/eat what you need in order to replace meat (and amen to the second part I'm so skinny its not even funny . . . .argh)

3)just spent 1.5 weeks in Scotland and england. You should see the cows and pigs and sheep over their. they just graze. they use land that couldn't be used for farming and they are not grain fed. The grain fed animals are (generally) the ones that take up much less space as they are the ones that live in pens for their entire (short) lives.

That's maybe the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

"Here, I made balut for you!"
"Oh, thank you so much, but I don't eat meat."
"What the fuck? There are people starving in other countries and you won't eat a duck fetus? If you don't eat it those people will die!"

No, I don't believe they die if I don't eat something :rolleyes:

It's more that I think it's just wrong to decline food on basis of "I don't like it" or the other reasonings I mentioned earlier when there are people out there who don't have option to eat in the first place. I'd rather first solve food crisis in 3rd world countries and then start thinking wrether it's ethical or not to eat meat :rolleyes:

Honestly though, I'm mostly annoyed by some of the vegetarians I know and how they have to attack other people's dietary choices for conflicting with theirs. I don't mind if someone wants to only eat veggies really, it's the preachers that piss me off.

I knew a girl who tried to get a vegan meal at a Waffle House once. I'm sure you can imagine how that went over. I'm not sure you can get a glass of water there that isn't greasy.

See, that's the kind of thing that annoys the general populace (and the restaurant staff). If you want to be a vegetarian, fine, but don't go to a steakhouse and demand a tofurky (although most steakhouses have enough in potatoes, veggies and bread rolls to fill anyone). My vegan friend eats at a lot of That and Japanese places because they tend to offer more vegan options.

First of all, if these people are just skipping meat and not eating substitutes (i.e. legumes, beans, tofu) then they're going to have problems. It's not like I eat a normal omnivorous diet, just without meat, that would be the most bland, boring diet ever. Instead I have a cupboard with dried beans ($1 a bag and make several meals when paired with relatively simple ingredients and spices) and I experiment with various mixtures of these beans, different veggies, different spices, paired, whatever sauces I come up with... and my grocery bills are generally under $20 a week (unless I buy toilet paper at the grocery store...).

I eat meat regularly and my grocery bill is 50$ a month (less sometimes) tofu and meat replacements are EXPENSIVE when compared to meat (nutritional value to nutritional value) my vegan friend spends about triple what I do on groceries (that being said he's not . . .um lets say . . . the best shopper out there)

Then it's about the vaccine, not gelatin.

Well, it's a combination of the two. If this was a vaccine for a disease I'm likely to come into contact with or has life long/deadly implications (i.e. if I have to travel somewhere that Hepatitis A is prevalent) then I'll take the vaccine even if it has gelatin. If the worst case is that I get sick for a week or two, then it's not worth it.

You surely have pretty... naive, or maybe idealized, views on things. There are much worse things out there.

Yeah, there are worse things out there, what's your point? I shouldn't try to live my life to an ideal?

You reduce the demand for meat by not ordering a meaty dish and not buying meat.

Ok...

You DON'T reduce the demand for meat by refusing a vaccine containing a gram of gelatin, or by throwing the meat out of your plate.

I don't throw meat off my plate. Usually, when I order food and say that I would like there to not be meat, there isn't meat. Sometimes there is, if there is, then it gets offered to my friends (I wouldn't be at such a place if not for friends wanting to go).

And it's not just about reducing the demand, it's also about my personal feelings of not wanting that in my body. If they really wanted everyone to take the flu vaccine then they would make one that everyone could take (for instance, muslims that I know won't take the flu vaccine due to the gelatin either, due to the possibility of pig gelatin being used).

No, I don't believe they die if I don't eat something :rolleyes:

It's more that I think it's just wrong to decline food on basis of "I don't like it" or the other reasonings I mentioned earlier when there are people out there who don't have option to eat in the first place. I'd rather first solve food crisis in 3rd world countries and then start thinking wrether it's ethical or not to eat meat :rolleyes:

Honestly though, I'm mostly annoyed by some of the vegetarians I know and how they have to attack other people's dietary choices for conflicting with theirs. I don't mind if someone wants to only eat veggies really, it's the preachers that piss me off.

And I am equally annoyed by evangelizing vegetarians. What we have here, though, is not that--it's you attacking someone's dietary choice.

The OP eating meat isn't going to help solve any food crises unless s/he's saving up all the meat on his/her sideplates and sending them to third-world countries. It has as much logic as your mother telling you to "finish your plate, children are starving in China."

There's also no reason one can't be a vegetarian and try to solve food crises. That's like saying that because there's a genocide going on in Sudan, my local police shouldn't waste their time trying to track down some guy who killed his wife. Hey, he just killed one person; in other places whole families are being murdered!

I eat meat regularly and my grocery bill is 50$ a month (less sometimes) tofu and meat replacements are EXPENSIVE when compared to meat (nutritional value to nutritional value) my vegan friend spends about triple what I do on groceries (that being said he's not . . .um lets say . . . the best shopper out there)
Vegan diets are different than vegetarian diets. They tend to be more expensive because they have to replace the fats in their diets, usually this task falls to nuts which tend to be expensive.

Tofu is dirt cheap, it's like $1 a block. If I buy TVP from the bulk barn, things get even cheaper...

...I also gave the high end grocery bill. Last week I spent $1.39 on bread and $7.90 on produce.

1. I never said diet and dietary deficiency are not connected. I said vegetarianism and dietary deficiency are not necessarily connected.
1)"The two needn't be connected." your right. Sorry I read that as Aren't.

2. As for your assertion that people who eat meat "generally don't have dietary deficiency problems": that is a plain and open lie. I will give you a chance to alter your statement.

2)I explained that fully. they don;t have dietary deficiency problems generally these are the people who are overweight etc. (plz read the reast of that statement. I don't wanna type it out again)

3. There are many sources of protein that do not come from meat. Dairy products, nuts, soy beans and avocados are all excellent sources of protein.

3)yes this is true. that being said many of those are quite expensive (avocados for one and even soy beans.). Also none of these foods (except maybe the soy beans I'm not sure) offer the same amount of protein gram for gram. meaning you end up having to both buy and eat more of them.
4. Your membership date is from 2005. Please learn to use the quote feature.
4)but but but I don't wanna. It's more fun this way lol . . .aw fine!!!

See, that's the kind of thing that annoys the general populace (and the restaurant staff). If you want to be a vegetarian, fine, but don't go to a steakhouse and demand a tofurky (although most steakhouses have enough in potatoes, veggies and bread rolls to fill anyone). My vegan friend eats at a lot of That and Japanese places because they tend to offer more vegan options.
The problem is when you have family or friends who aren't vegetarian and suggest places that lack vegetarian or vegan options. Or if you're traveling and don't know what a place offers at all. I know I've ended up at steakhouses because my family isn't exactly supportive of my dietary decision and there was one time that we stopped at a Cracker Barrel while traveling not knowing that they didn't have any vegetarian options and I had to order a "meal" of side dishes... and then found out that their lima beans had unstated ham... so that got traded.

Yeah, there are worse things out there, what's your point? I shouldn't try to live my life to an ideal? Well, let me ask you this... Do you consider it dirty to piss in the shower? To piss into the sink?


And it's not just about reducing the demand, it's also about my personal feelings of not wanting that in my body.
Yes, which are unscientific.

Human body is fully capable of processing meat. What's more, meat or its juices never actually enter the body - they pass through the digestive tract, which is an external system. There they're deeply processed, their very molecules broken down, and some simple parts of these molecules are absorbed in the intestines. Having something in the stomach is nothing like having it injected into the bloodflow. All you get out are proteins, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals, not "dead animal juices".

See, that's the kind of thing that annoys the general populace (and the restaurant staff). If you want to be a vegetarian, fine, but don't go to a steakhouse and demand a tofurky (although most steakhouses have enough in potatoes, veggies and bread rolls to fill anyone). My vegan friend eats at a lot of That and Japanese places because they tend to offer more vegan options.

To be fair, she didn't pick where we were going. And if had been anywhere other than the Waffle House, I would have expected them to have something.

Like I said before, even the Tex-Mex restaurant I worked at had a couple of possible options, and that's not exactly a food category where you would expect many vegans. I do have to admit wondering why a vegan family would visit the restaurant, though - especially since they complained about the lack of options they had. But it wasn't all bad. When I later ate there with a Muslim friend, I had learned which side dishes had pork products in them so I could steer him away from them. =)

Vegan diets are different than vegetarian diets. They tend to be more expensive because they have to replace the fats in their diets, usually this task falls to nuts which tend to be expensive.

Tofu is dirt cheap, it's like $1 a block. If I buy TVP from the bulk barn, things get even cheaper...

...I also gave the high end grocery bill. Last week I spent $1.39 on bread and $7.90 on produce.

yep I agree with all of that. When I was thinking tofu I was thinking of the (increadably expensive) pre wrapped prepared etc. (it was maybe 50g and about 20$)
(O and spices=expensive but thats not a point as their expensive no matter what your cooking. . . unless you don't use them . . .and then everything is so . . .lacking)

totally off topic but this looks . . . interesting lol:
http://green.sympatico.msn.ca/article.aspx?cp-documentid=473767

And I am equally annoyed by evangelizing vegetarians. What we have here, though, is not that--it's you attacking someone's dietary choice.

I mentioned my personal opinion, no more, no less. After which I've answered your somewhat hostile reactions to them. I even emphasized that I mainly don't get the "I don't want to eat something made of fluffy bunny!" crowd.

The OP eating meat isn't going to help solve any food crises unless s/he's saving up all the meat on his/her sideplates and sending them to third-world countries. It has as much logic as your mother telling you to "finish your plate, children are starving in China."

I don't intend to try and save the 3rd world countries myself. It's simply that I feel it's slap in the face for anyone who has ever suffered from real hunger when teenagers who've never lacked anything in their life go parading about how eating meat is so immoral.

There's also no reason one can't be a vegetarian and try to solve food crises. *snip*

Never said there isn't. Again, my annoyment is mainly targeted on what you called "evangelizing vegetarians" who are sadly the only kind I've had "pleasure" to meet.

1)2)I explained that fully. they don;t have dietary deficiency problems generally these are the people who are overweight etc. (plz read the reast of that statement. I don't wanna type it out again)

3)yes this is true. that being said many of those are quite expensive (avocados for one and even soy beans.). Also none of these foods (except maybe the soy beans I'm not sure) offer the same amount of protein gram for gram. meaning you end up having to both buy and eat more of them.

4)but but but I don't wanna. It's more fun this way lol . . .aw fine!!!

2. Many people, including many OBESE people, are deficient in essential nutrients and vitamins.

3. Source: Safeway.com and Fitday.com

1 oz uncooked lentils - $0.24 - 6.9 grams protein
1 oz uncooked lean ground beef - $0.25 - 5.4 grams protein

4. Thank you. :)

3)yes this is true. that being said many of those are quite expensive (avocados for one and even soy beans.). Also none of these foods (except maybe the soy beans I'm not sure) offer the same amount of protein gram for gram. meaning you end up having to both buy and eat more of them.

To be fair, most people who do eat meat eat more of it than they should - or need to in order to get adequate protein - so you wouldn't need to match the typical amount of protein gram for gram.

Personally, if I could talk my husband into it (he's very much a meat + starch in every meal type of guy), I'd probably cook with meat only 3 or 4 times a week. And I'd throw fish in there at least every now and then.


Yes, which are unscientific.

Most personal preferences aren't particularly scientific. Is that a problem?

Human body is fully capable of processing meat. What's more, meat or its juices never actually enter the body - they pass through the digestive tract, which is an external system.

Really? Your digestive tract is outside your body?

There they're deeply processed, their very molecules broken down, and some simple parts of these molecules are absorbed in the intestines. Having something in the stomach is nothing like having it injected into the bloodflow. All you get out are proteins, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals, not "dead animal juices".

It starts getting broken down once it gets inside your mouth. Maybe you don't consider that "inside your body", but most people do.

Note that "inside your body" does not equate to "inside your bloodstream."

1)true but cutting back on meat=/= cutting out meat.

Most people aren't willing to cut out meat entirely, asking them to cut back is more manageable.

If your not so well off your best beet is not vegetarianism as you probably wont be able to afford either the dietary supplements you need to live

I don't take any supplements.

or the rather expensive vegetables that you would need to eat in large quantities to replace vitamins and nutrients found naturally in meat.

Yes, less than $10 in veggies a week is so expensive. Although if I really wanted cheap veggies I could do what one of my friends did: he would pay a farmer $30 a month and in return, he would make a trip to get a giant box stuffed with veggies every week.

Secondly it depends on what you buying. A 20$v (and usually much less) rump roast will last a person over a week (including lunch etc.) if your ALSO having vegetables. then you actually get more out of less money for both the meat and the vegetables .

One block of tofu usually lasts me 2-3 meals ($1.50, tops). One bag of lentils ($1) lasts around 20 (though they usually get mixed in with another veggie). A bag of onions ($2.99) lasts quite a while as does garlic ($.99 for four heads), combined with jalepenos ($0.10 each usually), zucchini (less than $1... lasts 2-3 meals depending what I'm throwing in the meals) spices are expensive for the amount you get, but not for the fact that they last forever. The only thing particularly expensive that I buy is olive oil.

2)you=quite well off yes?

Not at all. I finished my undergraduate degree last year and I'm now a grad student. I don't get paid much.

therefore you CAN afford to take/eat what you need in order to replace meat (and amen to the second part I'm so skinny its not even funny . . . .argh)

I can afford to eat enough that despite my low income, I can go out occasionally because I don't buy expensive things like meat.

3)just spent 1.5 weeks in Scotland and england. You should see the cows and pigs and sheep over their. they just graze.

Do they *just* graze? Did you observe them when they went into the barn? When the farmer pulled out the food in the morning? Yes, cows do get let outdoors and they do eat (or regurgitate what they ate for breakfast and chew it more), but that's not where most of their food comes from.

2. Many people, including many OBESE people, are deficient in essential nutrients and vitamins.

3. Source: Safeway.com and Fitday.com

1 oz uncooked lentils - $0.24 - 6.9 grams protein
1 oz uncooked lean ground beef - $0.25 - 5.4 grams protein

4. Thank you. :)
2)not actually true. .. they are sufficient in essential vitamins and minerals (most of them) but because they are eating too much of other foods these end up being improperly digested and/or stored and unusable.

3)source:http://www.thedailyplate.com/nutrition-calories/food/generic/rump-roast/
1 oz cooked rump roast- 9 grams protein- 99c/pound or or about 0.10 ounce

4. np :D (I don;t like the new smileys :( )

To be fair, most people who do eat meat eat more of it than they should Correct.

Most personal preferences aren't particularly scientific. Is that a problem?
Yes, but it can be rectified in many cases.


Really? Your digestive tract is outside your body?
Yes. It's like a tube passing through you. When you eat, you don't absorb something and then crap it out - rather, you put something into that tube, and on its way the body picks what it needs.

If you're a donut, the digestive tract is the hole.

Well, let me ask you this... Do you consider it dirty to piss in the shower? To piss into the sink?

I don't do these things, I don't consider them overly dirty though, as long as it's rinsed.

Yes, which are unscientific.

So? When did I say everything I did was scientific?

Human body is fully capable of processing meat.

So?

What's more, meat or its juices never actually enter the body - they pass through the digestive tract, which is an external system. There they're deeply processed, their very molecules broken down, and some simple parts of these molecules are absorbed in the intestines. Having something in the stomach is nothing like having it injected into the bloodflow. All you get out are proteins, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals, not "dead animal juices".

I get the results of a dead animal inside my blood flow after it has been broken down though.

And really, what do you care what I eat? It's not like I refuse to eat food that has been cooked in something that once had meat in or on it, I'll just ask that it be cleaned off. I mean, if I go to my friend's house for a BBQ, I'll usually just bring my own veggie burgers and ask for the brush to clean off a bit of grill.

Yes, but it can be rectified in many cases.

I don't see how it's a problem. A personal preference is, by definition, subjective.

Yes. It's like a tube passing through you. When you eat, you don't absorb something and then crap it out - rather, you put something into that tube, and on its way the body picks what it needs.

...which doesn't make it any less internal.

You aren't a donut. Your digestive tract is more of a tunnel than a hole - and a porous one at that.

Most people aren't willing to cut out meat entirely, asking them to cut back is more manageable.
agreed . . .but wasn't that my point?


I don't take any supplements.
and your still healthy? I'm impressed.




Yes, less than $10 in veggies a week is so expensive. Although if I really wanted cheap veggies I could do what one of my friends did: he would pay a farmer $30 a month and in return, he would make a trip to get a giant box stuffed with veggies every week.

see above comment. And again with meat added to that you'd probably be spending less plus getting more of the nutrients/minerals/etc. which you don't apparently need (are you anemic???? how do you get iron if not from suplements???)



One block of tofu usually lasts me 2-3 meals ($1.50, tops). One bag of lentils ($1) lasts around 20 (though they usually get mixed in with another veggie). A bag of onions ($2.99) lasts quite a while as does garlic ($.99 for four heads), combined with jalepenos ($0.10 each usually), zucchini (less than $1... lasts 2-3 meals depending what I'm throwing in the meals) spices are expensive for the amount you get, but not for the fact that they last forever. The only thing particularly expensive that I buy is olive oil.

agreed to the spices etc. (and olive oils a pain but w/e). I think you lost me with what you were trying to say there . . . .I'm honestly not too sure what that would add up too and/or if thats all you buy in a week . . . plz explain


Not at all. I finished my undergraduate degree last year and I'm now a grad student. I don't get paid much.
lmao I'm undergrad what you guys get paid (at least from what I'v seen) is a fortune compared to what I get paid




I can afford to eat enough that despite my low income, I can go out occasionally because I don't buy expensive things like meat.
I probably make less. I eat meat. and I still manage to go out frequently . . .thats spending money wisely and has little to do with food. (o and I don't have OSAP . . .if you don;t know what it means ask someone else cause I'm really not too sure myself anymore)





Do they *just* graze? Did you observe them when they went into the barn? When the farmer pulled out the food in the morning? Yes, cows do get let outdoors and they do eat (or regurgitate what they ate for breakfast and chew it more), but that's not where most of their food comes from.
funny thing I did watch them in the barn (I was staying at a farm) and they were fed nothing . . .Actually there wasn't really a barn at all . . . That being said i'm not an aggie and I'm not gonna claim thats true for any but this farm cause I don't know. Sheep on the other hand just graze. literally just graze.

I eat meat regularly and my grocery bill is 50$ a month (less sometimes) tofu and meat replacements are EXPENSIVE when compared to meat (nutritional value to nutritional value) my vegan friend spends about triple what I do on groceries
And you sure you don't live on a farm, and don't hunt, and don't have other ways to get food?

Because when I once tried to keep the food bill down to $300 a month, I found it excessively restrictive and not worth doing. And I'm far from overeating, really, I often even ride the bicycle to the shop, not the car. $150, I can understand, though it's low, but $50? On what do you feed?

And you sure you don't live on a farm, and don't hunt, and don't have other ways to get food?

Because when I once tried to keep the food bill down to $300 a month, I found it not worth doing. And I'm far from overeating, really, I often even ride the bicycle to the shop, not the car. $150, maybe $100, I can understand, but $50? On what do you feed?
lol no i just am good at stretching out food. for example iv made a salad for 9.50$ last nearly 2 weeks lol and like I said roast is one of my favorites and can last me almost literally a month. (that being said I really just don't need to eat that often . . .low metabolism or something).

agreed . . .but wasn't that my point?

No, your point was that one couldn't be a vegetarian, healthy and shop cheaper than someone who eats meat.

and your still healthy? I'm impressed.

You shouldn't be, all it takes is a varied diet.

One of my sisters was vegetarian for a while. She stopped after she spent two weeks eating nothing but potatoes (fried potatoes specifically) and then declared that she was stopping because she didn't feel well, which meant that a vegetarian diet wasn't healthy. Had she eaten a variety of foods, this wouldn't have been the case.

And again with meat added to that you'd probably be spending less plus getting more of the nutrients/minerals/etc. which you don't apparently need (are you anemic???? how do you get iron if not from suplements???)

No, I wouldn't be spending less... I would be spending more.
I don't need more of the nutrients/minerals, I get enough. Iron is in lots of foods, broccoli, breads (sometimes these are enriched to have even more iron), tofu, chickpeas, lentils, eggs et c... the only times I've ever been on the low end of healthy in terms of iron have been after my monthly visitor has come and gone.

I think you lost me with what you were trying to say there . . . .I'm honestly not too sure what that would add up too and/or if thats all you buy in a week . . . plz explain

Well usually all I buy in a week is some produce and some bread. Every once in a while I need to buy more olive oil (usually I get my parents to pick me a big one up from Costco and I repay them so I get one maybe every 6-10 months), or pickles/olives (because I like them), and I'll hit the store to get tofu (there's only one store in town that has the kind I like so I usually stock up when I want some), and replenish my legumes, I occasionally buy cheese (which is really expensive), but I'll usually get milk or soymilk to go with my oatmeal (I alternate, I like them both, but milk has B12, which is the only thing one would actually need supplements for if one has a proper vegan diet... not that I'm having a vegan diet, just saying) and I buy my oatmeal at the bulk barn along with my rice, they'll both cost under $1 each usually and last two to three weeks.
So yeah, averaged out it's possibly a bit more than $20 a week since I have lots of relatively expensive things which last a long time, but I mostly save money by shopping at the market instead of the supermarket. If I go to a supermarket, I'm generally tempted by random prepackaged foods whereas the prepackaged foods at the market are prohibitively expensive (including the tofu... organic tofu my ass).

lmao I'm undergrad what you guys get paid (at least from what I'v seen) is a fortune compared to what I get paid

Well, considering that in undergrad one generally gets paid negative dollars... it's nice to have some cash flow, it means that I can buy things I couldn't normally buy before (like cheese and a variety of vinegars... even fancy rice if I want... and wine to throw in pasta sauce!) but I'm not rich by any means. If I didn't have a roommate I'd be scraping by, but since I do I'm relatively fine (as long as my cat doesn't get sick). I basically make less than what one would earn working a full time job minimum wage once you factor in deductions for tuition and I work longer hours.

I probably make less. I eat meat. and I still manage to go out frequently . . .thats spending money wisely and has little to do with food. (o and I don't have OSAP . . .if you don;t know what it means ask someone else cause I'm really not too sure myself anymore)

I know what OSAP is, I wasn't able to get it because my dad made "too much" money... despite the fact that I have three sisters who all still live at home as well and my parents had a pile of debt that comes with this. Not that we were too badly off, but we weren't rich.

funny thing I did watch them in the barn (I was staying at a farm) and they were fed nothing . . .Actually there wasn't really a barn at all . . . That being said i'm not an aggie and I'm not gonna claim thats true for any but this farm cause I don't know. Sheep on the other hand just graze. literally just graze.

Well, since you're talking about not getting OSAP, I'll point out that cows in Ontario aren't largely fed like that. I'll also point out that there are no pork slaughterhouses in Ontario anymore, so pigs raised in Ontario are shipped to Manitoba, slaughtered and shipped back for consumption in what is possibly one of the most environmentally stupid plans ever.

No, your point was that one couldn't be a vegetarian, healthy and shop cheaper than someone who eats meat.



You shouldn't be, all it takes is a varied diet.

One of my sisters was vegetarian for a while. She stopped after she spent two weeks eating nothing but potatoes (fried potatoes specifically) and then declared that she was stopping because she didn't feel well, which meant that a vegetarian diet wasn't healthy. Had she eaten a variety of foods, this wouldn't have been the case.



No, I wouldn't be spending less... I would be spending more.
I don't need more of the nutrients/minerals, I get enough. Iron is in lots of foods, broccoli, breads (sometimes these are enriched to have even more iron), tofu, chickpeas, lentils, eggs et c... the only times I've ever been on the low end of healthy in terms of iron have been after my monthly visitor has come and gone.



Well usually all I buy in a week is some produce and some bread. Every once in a while I need to buy more olive oil (usually I get my parents to pick me a big one up from Costco and I repay them so I get one maybe every 6-10 months), or pickles/olives (because I like them), and I'll hit the store to get tofu (there's only one store in town that has the kind I like so I usually stock up when I want some), and replenish my legumes, I occasionally buy cheese (which is really expensive), but I'll usually get milk or soymilk to go with my oatmeal (I alternate, I like them both, but milk has B12, which is the only thing one would actually need supplements for if one has a proper vegan diet... not that I'm having a vegan diet, just saying) and I buy my oatmeal at the bulk barn along with my rice, they'll both cost under $1 each usually and last two to three weeks.
So yeah, averaged out it's possibly a bit more than $20 a week since I have lots of relatively expensive things which last a long time, but I mostly save money by shopping at the market instead of the supermarket. If I go to a supermarket, I'm generally tempted by random prepackaged foods whereas the prepackaged foods at the market are prohibitively expensive (including the tofu... organic tofu my ass).



Well, considering that in undergrad one generally gets paid negative dollars... it's nice to have some cash flow, it means that I can buy things I couldn't normally buy before (like cheese and a variety of vinegars... even fancy rice if I want... and wine to throw in pasta sauce!) but I'm not rich by any means. If I didn't have a roommate I'd be scraping by, but since I do I'm relatively fine (as long as my cat doesn't get sick). I basically make less than what one would earn working a full time job minimum wage once you factor in deductions for tuition and I work longer hours.



I know what OSAP is, I wasn't able to get it because my dad made "too much" money... despite the fact that I have three sisters who all still live at home as well and my parents had a pile of debt that comes with this. Not that we were too badly off, but we weren't rich.



Well, since you're talking about not getting OSAP, I'll point out that cows in Ontario aren't largely fed like that. I'll also point out that there are no pork slaughterhouses in Ontario anymore, so pigs raised in Ontario are shipped to Manitoba, slaughtered and shipped back for consumption in what is possibly one of the most environmentally stupid plans ever.

Argh to tired to go over right now but I will get back to this. (the only thing I'm gonna answer for now is that the barn was in scotland. . . not ontario lol. you canadian?)

see above comment. And again with meat added to that you'd probably be spending less plus getting more of the nutrients/minerals/etc. which you don't apparently need (are you anemic???? how do you get iron if not from suplements???)

Dark leafy green veggies, like broccoli and bok choy. And if you added meat to her grocery list, how would you spend less money?

not actually true. .. they are sufficient in essential vitamins and minerals (most of them) but because they are eating too much of other foods these end up being improperly digested and/or stored and unusable.

"...such healthy foods as vegetables and fruit make up only 10 percent of the caloric intake in the U.S. diet. A large proportion of Americans are undernourished in terms of vitamins and minerals. You can actually be obese and still be undernourished with regard to important nutrients." --Seven Nutriets Americans Are Most Deficient In (http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/07/03/28/the_seven_nutrients_americans_are_most_deficient_in__amp_how_to_get_them.htm)

The article goes on to say that a survey of 9,000 Americans showed that:

93% of Americans are deficient in Vitamin E
30% of Americans are deficient in Vitamin C
56% of Americans are deficient in Magnesium
44% of Americans are deficient in Vitamin A
70% of Americans are deficient in Calcium
97% of Americans are deficient in Potassium

The article lists foods to eat that are rich in each of the vitamins and minerals. Meat is mentioned only once (calf's liver for Vitamin A).

I probably make less. I eat meat. and I still manage to go out frequently . . .thats spending money wisely and has little to do with food. (o and I don't have OSAP . . .if you don;t know what it means ask someone else cause I'm really not too sure myself anymore)

1. You seem to be hellbent on "proving" that a diet with meat costs less than a diet without meat, which is a totally subjective thing depending on the quality and availability of different products.

2. You seem to be asserting, contrary to your earlier position, that the OP doesn't spend more on his/her vegetarian diet because it's more expensive, s/he just isn't as good at "spending money wisely". While that's for him/her to respond to, I find that quite rude.

lol no i just am good at stretching out food. for example iv made a salad for 9.50$ last nearly 2 weeks lol and like I said roast is one of my favorites and can last me almost literally a month. (that being said I really just don't need to eat that often . . .low metabolism or something).
So you have a low metabolism... ok, next time you grocery shop, compare the amount of food your vegetarian friend gets compared to the amount you do. It's probably not an issue of his food not being nutritious so much as it is an issue of his metabolism being higher. Although it would probably be better if you go shopping with two friends who eat similar amounts of food, but one eats meat and the other doesn't and see whose grocery bill is higher.

I have a friend who spends like $70 a week on food. He's vegan, but more importantly, he has an extremely fast metabolism (I don't think he could get fat if he tried), he would spend a lot of money on food no matter what his diet is. He would spend more if he ate meat though...

I guess religious people can also get away with discrimination lawsuits better...?



I'm a vegetarian for a couple of reasons. One of which has to do with the fact that we live in a society where meat consumption is unnecessary to survival (if I can live without increasing the demand for dead animals, why shouldn't I?) and the practices of the meat industry are unnecessarily cruel...



...and the other is environmental whereby, if meat consumption was reduced, more people could be fed using less farmland and energy.

Those are the main reasons anyways.I thought your main reason wasn't so much that you loved animals too much as you hate plants just enough.

[you don't take supplements] and your still healthy? I'm impressed.
Has the world stopped eating vegetables? Is everyone else (bar, it seems Dakini and I) unable to keep healthy without popping pills?


I thought your main reason wasn't so much that you loved animals too much as you hate plants just enough.
I cut my broccoli with a rusty knife.

note: I'm not sure if religious proclamation is the best way to put it, but I haven't thought of a better way to say it.

Now, I'm a vegetarian because I made a personal choice to avoid eating meat. I also refuse unnecessary inoculations (i.e. for things I'm unlikely to get/that aren't life threatening to have et c) which contain gelatin. While I'm not too picky, I prefer it if my food doesn't come into contact with meat, at least not extensively, but I'll usually deal with it if it's not too bad and I'm hungry.

I have got much flack for this from people generally have no business being angry at me for my food choices when all I do is ask if something has meat, or occasionally at restaurants, if I ask for a meal option with the meat either held off the plate entirely or even put on a side plate so I can give it to someone else.

I have also had people harass me because I refused to get the flu vaccine (gelatin... although I laughed when one person was out sick with "flu-like symptoms" for a week after getting vaccinated and I didn't get sick at all)...

Yet when someone refuses to get a vaccine or eat a particular food due to religious reasons, they get a free pass. The conversation tends to go like this "hey, want some bacon?" "no, I'm Jewish" "ok" but for me it goes "hey, want some bacon?", "no, I don't eat meat", "why?", "<insert long explanation>", "but it's bacon, it's delicious" *shoves food under my nose* et c... it's gotten to the point where I've started to think of telling people I'm Hindu, Buddhist or Jain (not so much the last one since I kill too many bugs...) so they'll leave me alone when I say that I don't eat meat.

I mean, at least I've gone through and considered my eating habits thoughtfully instead of just subscribing to a particular doctrine which dictates what I can and cannot eat. Why can't people let me eat my veggies in peace?

People have emotional issues when it comes to food. It's seriously hilarious that the line of questioning between when I was vegan and now that I'm gluten free has changed but it hasn't.

"do you want a cookie?"
"no thanks"
"why not? it's just a cookie"
"I'm vegan"
"so?"
"it's got chocolate"
"oh, but can you eat eggs?"
"no"
"chicken?"
"no"
"fish?"
"no"
"hot dogs?"
"no"
"nachos?!!!"
"no"
"that sucks"

"do you want a brownie?"
"no"
"why?"
"I don't eat wheat"
"but can you have cookies?"
"no"
"bread?"
"no"
"pasta?"
"no"
"that sucks."
:rolleyes:

note: I'm not sure if religious proclamation is the best way to put it, but I haven't thought of a better way to say it.

Now, I'm a vegetarian because I made a personal choice to avoid eating meat. I also refuse unnecessary inoculations (i.e. for things I'm unlikely to get/that aren't life threatening to have et c) which contain gelatin. While I'm not too picky, I prefer it if my food doesn't come into contact with meat, at least not extensively, but I'll usually deal with it if it's not too bad and I'm hungry.

I have got much flack for this from people generally have no business being angry at me for my food choices when all I do is ask if something has meat, or occasionally at restaurants, if I ask for a meal option with the meat either held off the plate entirely or even put on a side plate so I can give it to someone else.

I have also had people harass me because I refused to get the flu vaccine (gelatin... although I laughed when one person was out sick with "flu-like symptoms" for a week after getting vaccinated and I didn't get sick at all)...

Yet when someone refuses to get a vaccine or eat a particular food due to religious reasons, they get a free pass. The conversation tends to go like this "hey, want some bacon?" "no, I'm Jewish" "ok" but for me it goes "hey, want some bacon?", "no, I don't eat meat", "why?", "<insert long explanation>", "but it's bacon, it's delicious" *shoves food under my nose* et c... it's gotten to the point where I've started to think of telling people I'm Hindu, Buddhist or Jain (not so much the last one since I kill too many bugs...) so they'll leave me alone when I say that I don't eat meat.

I mean, at least I've gone through and considered my eating habits thoughtfully instead of just subscribing to a particular doctrine which dictates what I can and cannot eat. Why can't people let me eat my veggies in peace?

You must work with some real jackasses, then. I tend to believe that people know what they like, or what's good/bad for them, and I try to accommodate them when I am cooking.

If I knew that you didn't like meat at all when I invited you, I'd make meatless lasagna, or spaghetti and marinara sauce, or pull out the Indian cookbook and choose some meatless dishes there.

I've eaten at vegetarian restaurants even though I am a confirmed omnivore; it's not as if it's some kind of horrible deprivation.

OThen again I think that as long as there's hunger in the world anyone refusing to eat something they're offered deserves a nice hard punch in their face, as well as one-way ticket to 3rd world country of their choice.

Why? other than the testosterone-soaked response being asinine, if she doesn't eat the food, someone else who's hungry can.

I really don't understand this stupid "dog in the manger" attitude of "EAT EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T WANT TO, OTHERS ARE HUNGRY!"

I doubt that it's a reasonable and rational decision to avoid even a smallest touch of meat at nearly any cost.

If you think it's reasonable, what are the reasons?

I think "I don't want it" is a sufficient reason.

er . . .meat consumption is only unnecessary for survival if you happen to be fairly well off (ie. middle/upper middle class). Most people (and I know three personally) either can't or don't want to realize exactly how much damage you can do to yourself by not eating meat. As to the second thats mostly agricultural bullshit. Looks good on the books but not actually feasible . Most grazing land is not suitable for crops and while crops occupy less land they are 1)seasonal and 2) must be left fallow for quite a while (usually 1 year in four tho it varies) meaning a large portion of this land would not be usable at one time.

That's funny. You mean to tell me that diets of rice, beans, grains and vegetables are untenable?

You might actually want to rethink that. People have lived on them for thousands of years.

You might also want to look into crop rotation.

wha? diet and dietary deficiency are not connected????? not eating meat and having protein deficiency are connected... directly and generally people who eat meat don't have dietary deficiency problems (its usually the other way round. IE. they will have problems with having too much of certain nutrients and or fats/proteins/sugars etc. .)

Do you not know that soy, and other beans, are chock full of protein? Or are you a veggie-phobe and wish not to take the fingers from your ears?

I eat meat regularly and my grocery bill is 50$ a month (less sometimes) tofu and meat replacements are EXPENSIVE when compared to meat (nutritional value to nutritional value) my vegan friend spends about triple what I do on groceries (that being said he's not . . .um lets say . . . the best shopper out there)

$50 a month?
This is do not believe.
Grocery list, please.

note: I'm not sure if religious proclamation is the best way to put it, but I haven't thought of a better way to say it.

Now, I'm a vegetarian because I made a personal choice to avoid eating meat. I also refuse unnecessary inoculations (i.e. for things I'm unlikely to get/that aren't life threatening to have et c) which contain gelatin. While I'm not too picky, I prefer it if my food doesn't come into contact with meat, at least not extensively, but I'll usually deal with it if it's not too bad and I'm hungry.

I have got much flack for this from people generally have no business being angry at me for my food choices when all I do is ask if something has meat, or occasionally at restaurants, if I ask for a meal option with the meat either held off the plate entirely or even put on a side plate so I can give it to someone else.

I have also had people harass me because I refused to get the flu vaccine (gelatin... although I laughed when one person was out sick with "flu-like symptoms" for a week after getting vaccinated and I didn't get sick at all)...

Yet when someone refuses to get a vaccine or eat a particular food due to religious reasons, they get a free pass. The conversation tends to go like this "hey, want some bacon?" "no, I'm Jewish" "ok" but for me it goes "hey, want some bacon?", "no, I don't eat meat", "why?", "<insert long explanation>", "but it's bacon, it's delicious" *shoves food under my nose* et c... it's gotten to the point where I've started to think of telling people I'm Hindu, Buddhist or Jain (not so much the last one since I kill too many bugs...) so they'll leave me alone when I say that I don't eat meat.

I mean, at least I've gone through and considered my eating habits thoughtfully instead of just subscribing to a particular doctrine which dictates what I can and cannot eat. Why can't people let me eat my veggies in peace?

People like you who refuse injections are the sole reason there's now a large measles outbreak in the US.

Of course, it would be your children who suffer, probably not you (since you were probably vaccinated as a child, before you could choose not to).

Good job there.

2)I explained that fully. they don;t have dietary deficiency problems generally these are the people who are overweight etc. (plz read the reast of that statement. I don't wanna type it out again)
People who avoid eating enough green vegetables like broccoli and others miss out on vitamins like B12, and have dietary deficiencies.

http://www.all-natural.com/ames.html

3)yes this is true. that being said many of those are quite expensive (avocados for one and even soy beans.). Also none of these foods (except maybe the soy beans I'm not sure) offer the same amount of protein gram for gram. meaning you end up having to both buy and eat more of them.
http://www.mypyramid.gov/pyramid/meat.html#

Funny, the USDA says they are a good source of protein AND fiber, and equates them with meat, poultry and fish. Go figure.

Because if you're not religious, then it is assumed that you have a rational reason behind what you are doing and thus can be debated, unlike religion.

aand your still healthy? I'm impressed.
No, simply ignorant.



see above comment. And again with meat added to that you'd probably be spending less plus getting more of the nutrients/minerals/etc. which you don't apparently need (are you anemic???? how do you get iron if not from suplements???)
Green vegetables like spinach, and dry beans have a lot of iron.




agreed to the spices etc. (and olive oils a pain but w/e). I think you lost me with what you were trying to say there . . . .I'm honestly not too sure what that would add up too and/or if thats all you buy in a week . . . plz explain
That's what she said, and apparently you're not as certain as you thought about how various diets work.



lmao I'm undergrad what you guys get paid (at least from what I'v seen) is a fortune compared to what I get paid
Right. Because STUDENTS get paid a LOT. Everyone knows that.





I probably make less. I eat meat. and I still manage to go out frequently . . .thats spending money wisely and has little to do with food. (o and I don't have OSAP . . .if you don;t know what it means ask someone else cause I'm really not too sure myself anymore)
You PROBABLY make less? You're not sure?

Just trying to clarify here.


funny thing I did watch them in the barn (I was staying at a farm) and they were fed nothing . . .Actually there wasn't really a barn at all . . . That being said i'm not an aggie and I'm not gonna claim thats true for any but this farm cause I don't know. Sheep on the other hand just graze. literally just graze.

No, they don't.
http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/sheep/articles/basics.html
http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/sheep/410-853/410-853.html
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/TOPIC_Beef_Cattle_Feed_Forage_and_Nutrition

did you not forget that mad cow disease is a problem that began with cattle feed?

lol no i just am good at stretching out food. for example iv made a salad for 9.50$ last nearly 2 weeks lol and like I said roast is one of my favorites and can last me almost literally a month. (that being said I really just don't need to eat that often . . .low metabolism or something).

A two week old salad that wasn't rotten? That doesn't sound possible.
A roast that lasted a month?

Has the world stopped eating vegetables? Is everyone else (bar, it seems Dakini and I) unable to keep healthy without popping pills?

No vitapills for me. Just meats, grains, fruits, vegetables, and dairy.

No, simply ignorant.




Green vegetables like spinach, and dry beans have a lot of iron.





That's what she said, and apparently you're not as certain as you thought about how various diets work.




Right. Because STUDENTS get paid a LOT. Everyone knows that.






You PROBABLY make less? You're not sure?

Just trying to clarify here.




No, they don't.
http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/sheep/articles/basics.html
http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/sheep/410-853/410-853.html
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/TOPIC_Beef_Cattle_Feed_Forage_and_Nutrition

did you not forget that mad cow disease is a problem that began with cattle feed?



A two week old salad that wasn't rotten? That doesn't sound possible.
A roast that lasted a month?



No vitapills for me. Just meats, grains, fruits, vegetables, and dairy.
ahhhhh so much to respond too. btw how's it going KAT.
1) maybe a bit of both. and Ironically the reason I haven't posted in a while is I'm sick . . . . . . .hmmmmmm
2)Yes I realize that. but:

A study published in 2005 compared more than 1000 German vegetarians with nearly 700 health-conscious non-vegetarians over a 21-year period, and found that there were no major differences between the groups in terms of death and disease, although the vegetarians had slightly less heart disease. Both groups were healthier than the general population, in part due to less smoking and more physical activity.
and


Strict vegetarians (vegans, who eat no animal products at all) must be careful to consume adequate amounts of protein. Other nutrients which may be missing from a vegetarian diet include vitamin B12, vitamin D, calcium, zinc, and iron (see Calcium, Vitamin B, Vitamin D, and Zinc). Some health care professionals consider vegan diets potentially risky, especially for infants, toddlers, and pregnant women. Vegan diets must be carefully planned to ensure adequate amounts of required nutrients are consumed.

Vegan women who breastfeed their infants may want to take supplements containing sufficient vitamin B12. Severe B12 deficiencies in breastfed infants of vegan mothers have caused failure to thrive, poor brain development, and other serious problems.

Switching to a vegetarian diet may increase the amount of dietary fiber consumed, which can cause temporary problems such as bloating, discomfort, and gas. Dietitians suggest a gradual rather than quick change in diet.

source:http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3x_Vegetarianism.asp

3)What? when did I claim I was certain about anything of the sort????? I'm not vegetarian and Im not claiming that I know anything/everything about vegetarianism/veganism. Originally (though its pretty twisted now) I was arguing against the claim that a) vegetarianism is healthier by default and b)vegetarianism can solve all of the worlds hunger problems (ok slight exaggeration on both points but you get the idea.

4)I AM a student that was my point. Undergraduates get payed ALOT less than Grad students. Therefore compared to me she probably makes alot.

5)of course I'm not sure. She could be unemployed or she could be a stock broker who's made millions. As an average grad student though she'd be making more than me.

6)all that those site said was tat you can supplement forage with feed sometimes and it can help the health of your sheep . . .nothing about if anyone is doing it/what country their in/ something useful (sorry bout that last one). and this is Scotland btw. A study from Virginia=probably not all that useful. Also mad cow came from cows being fed other cows no? what does that have to do with using grain to feed cows?(the original point) Though i agree cows are fed feed.

7)refrigerator+vacuum seal. (i've still got some though eating it now would be . . .um . . .a bad idea . . .)

8)well done

People who avoid eating enough green vegetables like broccoli and others miss out on vitamins like B12, and have dietary deficiencies.

http://www.all-natural.com/ames.html


http://www.mypyramid.gov/pyramid/meat.html#

Funny, the USDA says they are a good source of protein AND fiber, and equates them with meat, poultry and fish. Go figure.

1)thank you. so not eating vegetables is a problem? I never would have guessed! what does that have to do with the discussion???

2)see above.

$50 a month?
This is do not believe.
Grocery list, please.

can I get back to you on this one? O and I'm not gonna be able to quote a source so your gonna have to take me at my word on pricing.

No, your point was that one couldn't be a vegetarian, healthy and shop cheaper than someone who eats meat.



You shouldn't be, all it takes is a varied diet.

One of my sisters was vegetarian for a while. She stopped after she spent two weeks eating nothing but potatoes (fried potatoes specifically) and then declared that she was stopping because she didn't feel well, which meant that a vegetarian diet wasn't healthy. Had she eaten a variety of foods, this wouldn't have been the case.



No, I wouldn't be spending less... I would be spending more.
I don't need more of the nutrients/minerals, I get enough. Iron is in lots of foods, broccoli, breads (sometimes these are enriched to have even more iron), tofu, chickpeas, lentils, eggs et c... the only times I've ever been on the low end of healthy in terms of iron have been after my monthly visitor has come and gone.



Well usually all I buy in a week is some produce and some bread. Every once in a while I need to buy more olive oil (usually I get my parents to pick me a big one up from Costco and I repay them so I get one maybe every 6-10 months), or pickles/olives (because I like them), and I'll hit the store to get tofu (there's only one store in town that has the kind I like so I usually stock up when I want some), and replenish my legumes, I occasionally buy cheese (which is really expensive), but I'll usually get milk or soymilk to go with my oatmeal (I alternate, I like them both, but milk has B12, which is the only thing one would actually need supplements for if one has a proper vegan diet... not that I'm having a vegan diet, just saying) and I buy my oatmeal at the bulk barn along with my rice, they'll both cost under $1 each usually and last two to three weeks.
So yeah, averaged out it's possibly a bit more than $20 a week since I have lots of relatively expensive things which last a long time, but I mostly save money by shopping at the market instead of the supermarket. If I go to a supermarket, I'm generally tempted by random prepackaged foods whereas the prepackaged foods at the market are prohibitively expensive (including the tofu... organic tofu my ass).



Well, considering that in undergrad one generally gets paid negative dollars... it's nice to have some cash flow, it means that I can buy things I couldn't normally buy before (like cheese and a variety of vinegars... even fancy rice if I want... and wine to throw in pasta sauce!) but I'm not rich by any means. If I didn't have a roommate I'd be scraping by, but since I do I'm relatively fine (as long as my cat doesn't get sick). I basically make less than what one would earn working a full time job minimum wage once you factor in deductions for tuition and I work longer hours.




1)no my point was that vegetarianism isn't by definition healthier and less expensive than an omnivorous diet. I'm not saying it can't be I'm just saying it isn't necessarily.
2)Ya that kind of things ridiculous. Any unbalanced diet is not gonna be healthy be that vegetarian, omnivorous,carnivorous w/e
3)Fair enough.I woulda said a balanced diet including some sort of meat (in very small quantities would probably allow you to cut back on some of the things your buying lots of (this is financial/theoretical only I know its not gonna happen) and save a bit of monney but I can't back that up
4)That's good to know and Ya I shop at a farmers market too . . .saves a bunch lol. And organic anything within canada's a bit of joke as its not government regulated lol.
5)ya making money . . .any kind of money . . . would be awesome :(

That's funny. You mean to tell me that diets of rice, beans, grains and vegetables are untenable?

You might actually want to rethink that. People have lived on them for thousands of years.

You might also want to look into crop rotation.



Do you not know that soy, and other beans, are chock full of protein? Or are you a veggie-phobe and wish not to take the fingers from your ears?
1)no of course not but a diet made solely of rice, beans, grains and vegetables is not necessarily more tenable than onethat is more balanced and which uses maximum possible growing space (ie. ground not suitable for crops/ and or fields lying fallow being used for grazing)

2)I love veggies!!!!!!!!! And yes I knew that and yes I wasn't thinking And yes I can be an idiot sometimes and yes many people would say a lot of the time.

Has the world stopped eating vegetables? Is everyone else (bar, it seems Dakini and I) unable to keep healthy without popping pills?


I'd say I could only im unhealthy right now. No I was under the impression that many vegetarians and vegans had to take dietary pills of some kind. Ie. iodine/potassium/iron etc. I might be wrong that was an impression I got from my friend who is a vegetarian and DOES need these (dunno why. . .at least that's what he says)

1. You seem to be hellbent on "proving" that a diet with meat costs less than a diet without meat, which is a totally subjective thing depending on the quality and availability of different products.

2. You seem to be asserting, contrary to your earlier position, that the OP doesn't spend more on his/her vegetarian diet because it's more expensive, s/he just isn't as good at "spending money wisely". While that's for him/her to respond to, I find that quite rude.

I think I've covered the rest and please read them carefully (if you wanna continue with this debate). But to reiterate.
1)no! I'm trying to prove that it is possible to spend less while INCLUDING MEAT IN YOUR DIET. not that it always occurs but just that a vegetarian diet=/= a cheaper diet or a more healthy diet.

2)wha???? how so????I was trying to say that using the fact that you have more money than someone else to say that a certain diet is less expensive is overly simplistic. I suggest you read exactly what I'm saying a little more closely rather than reading a one or two of my posts and deciding that you know exactly what I'm arguing.

FYI, DaWoad, graduate students generally have very little money. They often also are dealing with student loans in addition to meeting current expenses with a small stipend.

It is also easy to overspend on groceries. Honestly, $150 a month is not much to spend on food.
Personally though, I don't get vegetarians, at least not the ones that are veggies because "animals have feelings too!" and "killing animals is horrible!" These - usually - teenager girls who apparently haven't noticed that most animals kill each other for sustenance :rolleyes:

Then again I think that as long as there's hunger in the world anyone refusing to eat something they're offered deserves a nice hard punch in their face, as well as one-way ticket to 3rd world country of their choice.
Aaaand there we go already.

It doesn't really matter if someone has what you think is a stupid reason for refusing to eat something or not.
$50 a month?
This is do not believe.
Grocery list, please.
If I were less active and a small person, I would be able to pull that off pretty easily, or if I had good food storage, didn't count gas costs, and was driving to and from a nearby "stuff-in-bulk" store, but it's awfully hard to believe for someone in the US eating a non vegetarian diet. In spite of its subsidies, meat is generally more expensive than beans are. Off the top of my head, I would guess that DaWoad would have to be eating no more than 1500 kcal a day.

Personally, though, as a large active vegetarian who eats a lot and has a very low graduate-student income, I have gone under $100 for the whole month's eating expenses. Rice and beans are very good dietary staples.
Originally (though its pretty twisted now) I was arguing against the claim that a) vegetarianism is healthier by default
It is. Not because eating moderate amounts of meat is unhealthy (it isn't), but because socially, vegetarians are forced to be more aware of nutrition - because other people keep getting on their case about being vegetarian, and especially because fast food joints and most of the spectacularly "unhealthy" end of the food industry don't market to vegetarians, whom they assume to be health-conscious.
and b)vegetarianism can solve all of the worlds hunger problems (ok slight exaggeration on both points but you get the idea.
There's that ten to one energy ratio between each step of the food chain. The only thing meat has going for it is that in arid grasslands, very little can grow in terms of food crops, but most meat is produced from grain at a substantially higher energy cost.

Thus, shifting from meat to vegetables does cause a smaller energy impact, as a general rule, which means that it's easier to feed more vegetarians as a general rule. Same as the general rule that feeding people from scratch is costs less than feeding them heavily processed microwavable pre-portioned meals, same as the general rule that buying local is better for the environment.

In other words, there are exceptions, but the general rule holds if you hold all the other variables fixed.

Since Religion is a personal choice I don't distinguish between the two. I simply don't eat meat because I don't want to.

note: I'm not sure if religious proclamation is the best way to put it, but I haven't thought of a better way to say it.

Now, I'm a vegetarian because I made a personal choice to avoid eating meat. I also refuse unnecessary inoculations (i.e. for things I'm unlikely to get/that aren't life threatening to have et c) which contain gelatin. While I'm not too picky, I prefer it if my food doesn't come into contact with meat, at least not extensively, but I'll usually deal with it if it's not too bad and I'm hungry.

I have got much flack for this from people generally have no business being angry at me for my food choices when all I do is ask if something has meat, or occasionally at restaurants, if I ask for a meal option with the meat either held off the plate entirely or even put on a side plate so I can give it to someone else. I don't. to me, as long as you are not eating a friend of mine, or me... I really don't care. but I do know some people are... snotty about their diet. claiming some sort of superiority because of their diet or try to lay the guilt on me for mine.

I have also had people harass me because I refused to get the flu vaccine (gelatin... although I laughed when one person was out sick with "flu-like symptoms" for a week after getting vaccinated and I didn't get sick at all)... when people ask me if I'm getting the flu vaccine, I say "sorry, I don't want to get sick." at their quizzical glance, I inform them that the Flu Vaccine is a weak flu virus. and that sometime's it actually gets stronger when injected into the body.

Yet when someone refuses to get a vaccine or eat a particular food due to religious reasons, they get a free pass. The conversation tends to go like this "hey, want some bacon?" "no, I'm Jewish" "ok" but for me it goes "hey, want some bacon?", "no, I don't eat meat", "why?", "<insert long explanation>", "but it's bacon, it's delicious" *shoves food under my nose* et c... it's gotten to the point where I've started to think of telling people I'm Hindu, Buddhist or Jain (not so much the last one since I kill too many bugs...) so they'll leave me alone when I say that I don't eat meat.

I mean, at least I've gone through and considered my eating habits thoughtfully instead of just subscribing to a particular doctrine which dictates what I can and cannot eat. Why can't people let me eat my veggies in peace?because most people can understand religious restrictions. catholics practice Lent and used to have a no meat on fridays. so it's easy to understand a religious reason for dietary restrictions.

On-topic:

Because religion > personal choice obviously to most people. If you choose to not eat something because you don't want to, you're being picky. If your religion tells you not to eat something you're adhering to your religious code. It also has something to do with the amount of "backup": Your opinion vs. institution of thousands.

Off-topic:

Personally though, I don't get vegetarians, at least not the ones that are veggies because "animals have feelings too!" and "killing animals is horrible!" These - usually - teenager girls who apparently haven't noticed that most animals kill each other for sustenance :rolleyes:

Then again I think that as long as there's hunger in the world anyone refusing to eat something they're offered deserves a nice hard punch in their face, as well as one-way ticket to 3rd world country of their choice.

I know many people that have become vegetarians, and it isn't simply about saving animals. One of their motives might be saving animals and protesting the brutal conditions they live in and are killed in, but another highly important reason is because meat is completely energy inefficient. This planet could sustain a much higher amount of people very easily if we stopped raising cattle to eat and we started eating our veggies. That's a simple truth, that we all need to recognize. For this reason alone, I'm considering greatly cutting down on the amount of meat I eat (though I personally see no reason to be OC about it and avoid it like the plague).

As for the question posed by the OP, I hold both reasons to avoid certain foods with the same regard (that of respect), but I am more likely to ask a person that chose not to because I'm interested in hearing the reasoning and thoughts behind their decision because I'm generally interested in personal philosophy, and I always feel that I could learn something new (whereas when it's a religious decision, I already know the philosophy, the thinking behind it).

This is one of those issues where I genuinely cannot comprehend people on one side of the argument. I simply can't imagine caring why someone chooses not to eat a particular food - whether they have an allergy to it, or it's proscribed by their religion, or they find it immoral, or they simply don't like it, it's their business and not mine. If you don't want to eat food X, that's cool, I won't serve you food X.

I do admit to not really understanding why someone would choose to become a vegan, though. It just seems like an awful lot of inconvenience for no particular reason. (Yes, I know that many vegans feel that even the production of milk, eggs, and such involves unethical treatment of animals, but that's not intrinsic. I could understand eschewing animal products from factory farms, but why veto fresh farmer's-market eggs? I don't get that.) Still, I have friends who are vegans and, while I've honestly asked them why they made that choice, I certainly haven't endeavored to talk them out of it or make them eat yogurt against their will. :-P

I have also had people harass me because I refused to get the flu vaccine (gelatin... although I laughed when one person was out sick with "flu-like symptoms" for a week after getting vaccinated and I didn't get sick at all)...


You shouldn't get vaccines because you don't want to get sick, you do it because not being vaccinated means you could end up becoming the breeding ground for a virus or bacteria that We can't create a vaccine against, making millions or billions sick, and possibly dieing. People do die from the flu, and mostly because *gasp* they're old or having been eating properly


Yet when someone refuses to get a vaccine or eat a particular food due to religious reasons, they get a free pass. The conversation tends to go like this "hey, want some bacon?" "no, I'm Jewish" "ok" but for me it goes "hey, want some bacon?", "no, I don't eat meat", "why?", "<insert long explanation>", "but it's bacon, it's delicious" *shoves food under my nose* et c... it's gotten to the point where I've started to think of telling people I'm Hindu, Buddhist or Jain (not so much the last one since I kill too many bugs...) so they'll leave me alone when I say that I don't eat meat.

Yeah, and when Christians are going around being bigots, they get to claim it under Religious freedoms, that doesn't make them any less wrong, or any less of bigots; people not calling them out on it is more of a sad reflection on today's society, not a justification for those practices.

I know many people that have become vegetarians, and it isn't simply about saving animals. One of their motives might be saving animals and protesting the brutal conditions they live in and are killed in, but another highly important reason is because meat is completely energy inefficient. This planet could sustain a much higher amount of people very easily if we stopped raising cattle to eat and we started eating our veggies. That's a simple truth, that we all need to recognize. For this reason alone, I'm considering greatly cutting down on the amount of meat I eat (though I personally see no reason to be OC about it and avoid it like the plague).
Yeah, it could probably sustain a lot more people if we killed all the other animals off too. :rolleyes:

I've always found Vegans and Vegetarians to be somewhat ironic; had earily humans hadn't started eating meat, we would have never have evolved a large enough brain to be sentient and sit around talking about how they don't want to eat meat :P

But seriously, the only animals on this planet that even come close to being sentient are ether omnivores or carnivores, such as Dolphins and octopuses.

You must work with some real jackasses, then. I tend to believe that people know what they like, or what's good/bad for them, and I try to accommodate them when I am cooking.

If I knew that you didn't like meat at all when I invited you, I'd make meatless lasagna, or spaghetti and marinara sauce, or pull out the Indian cookbook and choose some meatless dishes there.

I've eaten at vegetarian restaurants even though I am a confirmed omnivore; it's not as if it's some kind of horrible deprivation.

I don't usually have this problem with people I work with. I mean, there were some potluck things where two people apart from me brought non-desert items that didn't have meat (well, that definitely didn't have meat). And some people have assumed that I eat fish, but this only came out when I pointed out that I'm more strict about vegetarianism than someone else I work with who eats fish occasionally (he's vegetarian due to health reasons).

And my friends usually don't mean to drag me places that don't serve vegetarian options, it just happens sometimes.

You shouldn't get vaccines because you don't want to get sick, you do it because not being vaccinated means you could end up becoming the breeding ground for a virus or bacteria that We can't create a vaccine against, making millions or billions sick, and possibly dieing. People do die from the flu, and mostly because *gasp* they're old or having been eating properly

First of all, flu vaccines work for one strand of the flu. If I get a strand of flu that isn't the flu they think is going to be big in a particular year, then I'm going to get sick anyways.
Secondly, I don't come into contact with any people who are susceptible to the flu.
Third, if they just made the vaccines without gelatin (I can't imagine it would be that hard when there are so many substitutes) then everyone could take vaccines.
Fourth, why on earth do you think I wouldn't vaccinate my potential children against childhood diseases? I'm not one to push my decisions like this on anyone, even if they are my hypothetical offspring.

I've always found Vegans and Vegetarians to be somewhat ironic; had earily humans hadn't started eating meat, we would have never have evolved a large enough brain to be sentient and sit around talking about how they don't want to eat meat :P

But seriously, the only animals on this planet that even come close to being sentient are ether omnivores or carnivores, such as Dolphins and octopuses.
But seriously, our societies make meat eating inefficient and unnecessary now. I'm not saying that in some parts of the world it isn't necessary to eat meat and be healthy, but in the parts of the world where most people who have the leisure time to post here are from, it isn't.

What would you say to someone who took this even farther? Someone who ate dairy products, yes, but didn't eat Meats, Fruits, or Veggies. Just interested.

Secondly, I don't come into contact with any people who are susceptible to the flu.

This is an important distinction. I generally don't get the flu shot, both because I'm not particularly at risk and because the shot itself has made me sick.

But I was working closely in a lab with someone who was immune compromised this past year and our boss asked that we all get immunized. Keeping him healthy and unexposed to the virus was important, so I did it.

FYI, DaWoad, graduate students generally have very little money. They often also are dealing with student loans in addition to meeting current expenses with a small stipend.

It is also easy to overspend on groceries. Honestly, $150 a month is not much to spend on food.

Aaaand there we go already.

It doesn't really matter if someone has what you think is a stupid reason for refusing to eat something or not.

If I were less active and a small person, I would be able to pull that off pretty easily, or if I had good food storage, didn't count gas costs, and was driving to and from a nearby "stuff-in-bulk" store, but it's awfully hard to believe for someone in the US eating a non vegetarian diet. In spite of its subsidies, meat is generally more expensive than beans are. Off the top of my head, I would guess that DaWoad would have to be eating no more than 1500 kcal a day.

Personally, though, as a large active vegetarian who eats a lot and has a very low graduate-student income, I have gone under $100 for the whole month's eating expenses. Rice and beans are very good dietary staples.

It is. Not because eating moderate amounts of meat is unhealthy (it isn't), but because socially, vegetarians are forced to be more aware of nutrition - because other people keep getting on their case about being vegetarian, and especially because fast food joints and most of the spectacularly "unhealthy" end of the food industry don't market to vegetarians, whom they assume to be health-conscious.

There's that ten to one energy ratio between each step of the food chain. The only thing meat has going for it is that in arid grasslands, very little can grow in terms of food crops, but most meat is produced from grain at a substantially higher energy cost.

Thus, shifting from meat to vegetables does cause a smaller energy impact, as a general rule, which means that it's easier to feed more vegetarians as a general rule. Same as the general rule that feeding people from scratch is costs less than feeding them heavily processed microwavable pre-portioned meals, same as the general rule that buying local is better for the environment.

In other words, there are exceptions, but the general rule holds if you hold all the other variables fixed.

1)good point and woot something to look . . .forward . . .aw man . . .:(

2)I posted a study somewhere in that mess. If your looking at "health conscious people on both sides the results turned out to be exactly the same (within error that is . . .one was marginally higher . . .um vegetarianism I believe)

3)I know the science there but with crop rotation. The fact that animals actually benefit the soil that they feed on and the fact that they could be moved from fallow field to fallow field the best solution would actually be a mixture (otherwise a fallow field would produce nothing of value)

This is an important distinction. I generally don't get the flu shot, both because I'm not particularly at risk and because the shot itself has made me sick.

But I was working closely in a lab with someone who was immune compromised this past year and our boss asked that we all get immunized. Keeping him healthy and unexposed to the virus was important, so I did it.
Yeah, if my grandparents weren't as healthy as they are and I saw them regularly, I would probably get the flu shot... but neither of these things are true (the first one fortunately and the second one is unfortunately).

Fourth, why on earth do you think I wouldn't vaccinate my potential children against childhood diseases? I'm not one to push my decisions like this on anyone, even if they are my hypothetical offspring.
I said nothing of your children; viruses can regularly recombine their genes with those of other viruses to create new viruses, why do you think everyone was so worried about the bird flu was such a concern? All it would take would be one H5 virus entering the same cell as a flu virus, they combine and they'd become an airborne bird flu virus.

And almost all sort of virus can do this.


But seriously, our societies make meat eating inefficient and unnecessary now. I'm not saying that in some parts of the world it isn't necessary to eat meat and be healthy, but in the parts of the world where most people who have the leisure time to post here are from, it isn't.

Which explains why we all shouldn't get vaccinated.

You shouldn't get vaccines because you don't want to get sick, you do it because not being vaccinated means you could end up becoming the breeding ground for a virus or bacteria that We can't create a vaccine against, making millions or billions sick, and possibly dieing. People do die from the flu, and mostly because *gasp* they're old or having been eating properly


Yeah, and when Christians are going around being bigots, they get to claim it under Religious freedoms, that doesn't make them any less wrong, or any less of bigots; people not calling them out on it is more of a sad reflection on today's society, not a justification for those practices.


Yeah, it could probably sustain a lot more people if we killed all the other animals off too. :rolleyes:

I've always found Vegans and Vegetarians to be somewhat ironic; had earily humans hadn't started eating meat, we would have never have evolved a large enough brain to be sentient and sit around talking about how they don't want to eat meat :P

But seriously, the only animals on this planet that even come close to being sentient are ether omnivores or carnivores, such as Dolphins and octopuses.

Well first of all, I highly doubt that if we all became vegetarians we would magically become idiots, many Hindus have been vegetarians for generations and yet they haven't degenerated into unintelligible sub-humans. I mean ultimately, it's kind of like saying that because we used oil and coal to build this nation, we should continue doing it regardless of it's effects on world stability, world health, and wars. Just because we used something to get to where we are today doesn't mean we should continue using it.

And besides, I never said we should completely remove ourselves from meat, but instead of having a society in which meat is something we eat two or more times a day, we should perhaps have it as something we eat as a treat every once in awhile (perhaps like once a week, etc.).

I said nothing of your children; viruses can regularly recombine their genes with those of other viruses to create new viruses, why do you think everyone was so worried about the bird flu was such a concern? All it would take would be one H5 virus entering the same cell as a flu virus, they combine and they'd become an airborne bird flu virus.

Well, then it's lucky that I never come into contact with poultry either, isn't it?

Which explains why we all shouldn't get vaccinated.

That had nothing to do with vaccinations, it had to do with the rest of your post.

note: I'm not sure if religious proclamation is the best way to put it, but I haven't thought of a better way to say it.

Now, I'm a vegetarian because I made a personal choice to avoid eating meat. I also refuse unnecessary inoculations (i.e. for things I'm unlikely to get/that aren't life threatening to have et c) which contain gelatin. While I'm not too picky, I prefer it if my food doesn't come into contact with meat, at least not extensively, but I'll usually deal with it if it's not too bad and I'm hungry.

I have got much flack for this from people generally have no business being angry at me for my food choices when all I do is ask if something has meat, or occasionally at restaurants, if I ask for a meal option with the meat either held off the plate entirely or even put on a side plate so I can give it to someone else.

I have also had people harass me because I refused to get the flu vaccine (gelatin... although I laughed when one person was out sick with "flu-like symptoms" for a week after getting vaccinated and I didn't get sick at all)...

Yet when someone refuses to get a vaccine or eat a particular food due to religious reasons, they get a free pass. The conversation tends to go like this "hey, want some bacon?" "no, I'm Jewish" "ok" but for me it goes "hey, want some bacon?", "no, I don't eat meat", "why?", "<insert long explanation>", "but it's bacon, it's delicious" *shoves food under my nose* et c... it's gotten to the point where I've started to think of telling people I'm Hindu, Buddhist or Jain (not so much the last one since I kill too many bugs...) so they'll leave me alone when I say that I don't eat meat.

I mean, at least I've gone through and considered my eating habits thoughtfully instead of just subscribing to a particular doctrine which dictates what I can and cannot eat. Why can't people let me eat my veggies in peace?

I don't care what you eat or don't eat as long as you follow the following guidelines:

1. Don't shove it down my throat.
2. Don't act as if you're morally superior because of it.
3. Don't pretend it's healthier than a properly balanced omnivorous diet.

But seriously, the only animals on this planet that even come close to being sentient are ether omnivores or carnivores, such as Dolphins and octopuses.

I think you may be jumping the gun arguing we're sentient. ;)

I'd like to see the research on meat consumption and brain size. Gorillas have brains nearly the size of ours, and they're entirely vegetarian. Chimpanzees and bonobos eat relatively little meat in the wild, certainly far less than the average American; their diet is largely frugivorous, supplemented by insects, eggs and small game (and sometime other primates).

Shout-out to the alma mater: This article (http://www.ucsc.edu/news_events/text.asp?pid=2024) detailing a study done by UCSC researchers on tooth formation and diet describes how the teeth of orangutans, like human teeth, have thicker enamel and more ridges than the teeth of chimpanzees, helping them break down tough plant matter and seeds. The very shape of our teeth certainly suggests that meat played a very limited role in our ancestors' lives.

What would you say to someone who took this even farther? Someone who ate dairy products, yes, but didn't eat Meats, Fruits, or Veggies. Just interested.

I'd say that I haven't read any research suggesting that this even approaches a balanced diet, but if they want to eat it, who cares. If someone wants to eat nothing but ketchup-flavored chips, who cares?

I think you may be jumping the gun arguing we're sentient. ;)
Sometimes I wonder.

I'd like to see the research on meat consumption and brain size.
I'm not sure if I can find the exact research in question, I'll try though; basically, however, it's believed that using tools meant humans needed more meat for brain development, or, conversely, more meat in the diet (like eating dead animals killed by other animals) allowed for the development of tools.

Gorillas have brains nearly the size of ours, and they're entirely vegetarian. Chimpanzees and bonobos eat relatively little meat in the wild, certainly far less than the average American; their diet is largely frugivorous, supplemented by insects, eggs and small game (and sometime other primates).
Is small game not meat :) ?

You also have to remember that people often eat more meat then they really need daily, so it could be possible that, for an animal like a bonobo, it would have to eat very little meat in relation to what a human would 'need' to eat (which isn't, again, what we may be eating)

Further more, it's not really the size of the brain that's important, it's the size of the brain in relation to the size of the body, as well as it's over all development.


Shout-out to the alma mater: This article (http://www.ucsc.edu/news_events/text.asp?pid=2024) detailing a study done by UCSC researchers on tooth formation and diet describes how the teeth of orangutans, like human teeth, have thicker enamel and more ridges than the teeth of chimpanzees, helping them break down tough plant matter and seeds. The very shape of our teeth certainly suggests that meat played a very limited role in our ancestors' lives.
Not necessarily, a bear, for example, eats a good amount of plant material too, but in general has a very carnivorous denture.

Then again I think that as long as there's hunger in the world anyone refusing to eat something they're offered deserves a nice hard punch in their face, as well as one-way ticket to 3rd world country of their choice.
Then again, I think you deserve a swift kick in the crotch because the global meat industry is a major cause of food shortage for humans. It's appalling how many resources (space, energy, FOOD) are wasted on raising animals bred for human consumption and maintaining factory farms. If all of those resources were used for growing crops for human consumption, there would probably be 10 times more food available.

Then again, I think you deserve a swift kick in the crotch because the global meat industry is a major cause of food shortage for humans. It's appalling how many resources (space, energy, FOOD) are wasted on raising animals bred for human consumption and maintaining factory farms. If all of those resources were used for growing crops for human consumption, there would probably be 10 times more food available.

Maybe 10 times more more shitty food. Meat makes the damn meal. Learn it, foo'.

Then again, I think you deserve a swift kick in the crotch because the global meat industry is a major cause of food shortage for humans. It's appalling how many resources (space, energy, FOOD) are wasted on raising animals bred for human consumption and maintaining factory farms. If all of those resources were used for growing crops for human consumption, there would probably be 10 times more food available.

Food shortages are almost entirely a product of political and infrastructure factors; indeed, the world produces a considerable surplus of food of which a lot is simply lost due to inefficient storage and spoilage. Even worse, more food is outright destroyed by governments and warlords seeking to assert control over their people. Even if we completely eliminated meat, I do not believe at all that it would materially affect global food security, especially considering regular consumption of large quantities of meat is a luxury enjoyed by no more than 1/6 of the world's population.

Since meat production is concentrated in areas that already produce large amounts of food, it is highly unlikely it plays any role in affecting the supply of food worldwide. Farmers aren't stupid; they produce meat when it makes sense to do so and they produce other crops when it makes sense to do so.

Yes, they do. However, a lion attacking and killing a gazelle for food is not quite the same as what we human beings do in terms of breeding, "housing" and butchering animals.

You're right, we should be back to hunting/gathering, and then see if more than 100'000 humans can live on earth.
Also gazelles taste better when they're freshly killed with sharp talons after a short chase.

:rolleyes:

Food shortages are almost entirely a product of political and infrastructure factors; indeed, the world produces a considerable surplus of food of which a lot is simply lost due to inefficient storage and spoilage. Even worse, more food is outright destroyed by governments and warlords seeking to assert control over their people.

Example: Italy is forced, by EU treatises, to destroy a good lot of the products of its farms (mostly milk, oranges, tomatoes, and even maize), so that the prices can be kept high enough.

Everything is politics.

snip

Would you eat cloned meat? That is, meat that has never actually been part of an animal?

Would you eat cloned meat? That is, meat that has never actually been part of an animal?

Adds cloned human meat to the question :)

Adds cloned human meat to the question :)

Well, it's just flesh, right? Wasn't ever really a human… not really…

*hides vat of congealing muscle cells*

note: I'm not sure if religious proclamation is the best way to put it, but I haven't thought of a better way to say it.

Now, I'm a vegetarian because I made a personal choice to avoid eating meat. I also refuse unnecessary inoculations (i.e. for things I'm unlikely to get/that aren't life threatening to have et c) which contain gelatin. While I'm not too picky, I prefer it if my food doesn't come into contact with meat, at least not extensively, but I'll usually deal with it if it's not too bad and I'm hungry.

I have got much flack for this from people generally have no business being angry at me for my food choices when all I do is ask if something has meat, or occasionally at restaurants, if I ask for a meal option with the meat either held off the plate entirely or even put on a side plate so I can give it to someone else.

I have also had people harass me because I refused to get the flu vaccine (gelatin... although I laughed when one person was out sick with "flu-like symptoms" for a week after getting vaccinated and I didn't get sick at all)...

Yet when someone refuses to get a vaccine or eat a particular food due to religious reasons, they get a free pass. The conversation tends to go like this "hey, want some bacon?" "no, I'm Jewish" "ok" but for me it goes "hey, want some bacon?", "no, I don't eat meat", "why?", "<insert long explanation>", "but it's bacon, it's delicious" *shoves food under my nose* et c... it's gotten to the point where I've started to think of telling people I'm Hindu, Buddhist or Jain (not so much the last one since I kill too many bugs...) so they'll leave me alone when I say that I don't eat meat.

I mean, at least I've gone through and considered my eating habits thoughtfully instead of just subscribing to a particular doctrine which dictates what I can and cannot eat. Why can't people let me eat my veggies in peace?
This is a lot like how kids at my school used to get out of the dress code requirements if they cited "religious reasons."

For instance, we weren't allowed to wear hats in school...except for the Jewish or Muslim students who had religious head coverings. Personally, I thought that was pure bullshit. If hats aren't allowed, then nobody should be allowed to wear hats. If hats are allowed, than anybody should be allowed to wear hats. (I, of course, lean strongly to the no-dress-code side, but that's another topic.)

I don't think "religious reasons" should be regarded as special. Religious reasons are personal reasons, nothing more and nothing less. I happen to think that we should generally respect people's personal choices, whether they be about eating, dressing, fucking, or anything else. And I don't think citing "religion" makes a person's reasons any more important.

note: I'm not sure if religious proclamation is the best way to put it, but I haven't thought of a better way to say it.

Now, I'm a vegetarian because I made a personal choice to avoid eating meat. I also refuse unnecessary inoculations (i.e. for things I'm unlikely to get/that aren't life threatening to have et c) which contain gelatin. While I'm not too picky, I prefer it if my food doesn't come into contact with meat, at least not extensively, but I'll usually deal with it if it's not too bad and I'm hungry.

I have got much flack for this from people generally have no business being angry at me for my food choices when all I do is ask if something has meat, or occasionally at restaurants, if I ask for a meal option with the meat either held off the plate entirely or even put on a side plate so I can give it to someone else.

I have also had people harass me because I refused to get the flu vaccine (gelatin... although I laughed when one person was out sick with "flu-like symptoms" for a week after getting vaccinated and I didn't get sick at all)...

Yet when someone refuses to get a vaccine or eat a particular food due to religious reasons, they get a free pass. The conversation tends to go like this "hey, want some bacon?" "no, I'm Jewish" "ok" but for me it goes "hey, want some bacon?", "no, I don't eat meat", "why?", "<insert long explanation>", "but it's bacon, it's delicious" *shoves food under my nose* et c... it's gotten to the point where I've started to think of telling people I'm Hindu, Buddhist or Jain (not so much the last one since I kill too many bugs...) so they'll leave me alone when I say that I don't eat meat.

I mean, at least I've gone through and considered my eating habits thoughtfully instead of just subscribing to a particular doctrine which dictates what I can and cannot eat. Why can't people let me eat my veggies in peace?

Well, I think meat's delicious. But if you don't eat meat for some health reasons, up to you. Hmm... You got a real problem there, huh?
Well, your a veggie guy (gal), be proud of it, be consistent with it.
What others say, is just what others say, what you think, is you. If they get flul, antrax, or whatever deisease they get from eating meat, then you'll get the last laugh, right? You got to keep that in mind.

Food shortages are almost entirely a product of political and infrastructure factors; indeed, the world produces a considerable surplus of food of which a lot is simply lost due to inefficient storage and spoilage. Even worse, more food is outright destroyed by governments and warlords seeking to assert control over their people. Even if we completely eliminated meat, I do not believe at all that it would materially affect global food security, especially considering regular consumption of large quantities of meat is a luxury enjoyed by no more than 1/6 of the world's population.

Since meat production is concentrated in areas that already produce large amounts of food, it is highly unlikely it plays any role in affecting the supply of food worldwide. Farmers aren't stupid; they produce meat when it makes sense to do so and they produce other crops when it makes sense to do so.
Thankyou.
Also Anyone want to think about what the economic effects would be of the entire world changing over to Veg? Probably not good . . .almost definatly not good infact.

Anyone want to think about what the economic effects would be of the entire world changing over to Veg? Probably not good . . .almost definatly not good infact.
What do you base this on?

Would you eat cloned meat? That is, meat that has never actually been part of an animal?

It's something my BF is waiting for ... he's vegetarian as he has a moral problem with eating animals. Meat that could be grown without ever having been an animal would be an option for him to start eating meat again.

Me, personally, I don't have so much of a problem with killing an animal, as long as the animal was kept in decent conditions while alive and is killed with the least amount of pain and stress involved. So, while I do eat meat every now and then, I tend to be very careful about where it came from (same goes for our eggs and milk products).

What do you base this on?

The fact that we have been breeding animals for consumption for a couple of millenia, and their populations might be tricky to be kept under control in changed circumstances?

The fact that we have been breeding animals for consumption for a couple of millenia, and their populations might be tricky to be kept under control in changed circumstances?

Hehe that's rather silly. There are other reasons to kill animals instead of food, and we already practice culling to control wild animal populations, I don't see why that would change?

Hehe that's rather silly. There are other reasons to kill animals instead of food, and we already practice culling to control wild animal populations, I don't see why that would change?

Well, it would. We wouldn't eat them, so what would we do with the bodies? Feed them to other animals? Not very practical, there aren't altogether that many canrivores around.
Burn them? That would be some rather nasty pollution, especially if we'll have to keep doing it.
Bury them? See above... they would start to seep...

Anyway, it would be costly no matter what we would do with them.

Well, it would. We wouldn't eat them, so what would we do with the bodies? Feed them to other animals? Not very practical, there aren't altogether that many canrivores around.
Burn them? That would be some rather nasty pollution, especially if we'll have to keep doing it.
Bury them? See above... they would start to seep...

Anyway, it would be costly no matter what we would do with them.

Kill everybody in Wales, fence it off, rename it Animal Kingdom, and cart them all in there. Then put armed carniverous guards on the borders, say we could even call them 'Beefeaters'

Kill everybody in Wales, fence it off, rename it Animal Kingdom, and cart them all in there. Then put armed carniverous guards on the borders, say we could even call them 'Beefeaters'

Your pun-fu is strong.

The fact that we have been breeding animals for consumption for a couple of millenia, and their populations might be tricky to be kept under control in changed circumstances?

We're humans. We're supposed to be bright and able to think up lots of solutions to problems.

"Keep Eating Them" seems so... simple.

The fact that we have been breeding animals for consumption for a couple of millenia, and their populations might be tricky to be kept under control in changed circumstances?
Have you considered the possibility of controlling their populations by not breeding them?