NationStates Jolt Archive

Something that has confused me for a long time, and is only becoming worse during this election year, is the Republican Party's mix of adherence to "Christian values" and the free market. I like a system of private property and profits just as much as the next guy, but to declare that the economic system the Republicans preach is not only the best but morally good seems antithetical to their Christian values, at least some of them. What's more, whenever there have been political structures that are nominally Christian, there is always a bit of welfare system going on. (Hospitals in medieval monasteries, for example.)

So, thoughts? Are the doctrines of the Republican Party contradictory, and, more generally, are Christianity and libertarian capitalism compatible?

Something that has confused me for a long time, and is only becoming worse during this election year, is the Republican Party's mix of adherence to "Christian values" and the free market. I like a system of private property and profits just as much as the next guy, but to declare that the economic system the Republicans preach is not only the best but morally good seems antithetical to their Christian values, at least some of them. What's more, whenever there have been political structures that are nominally Christian, there is always a bit of welfare system going on. (Hospitals in medieval monasteries, for example.)

So, thoughts? Are the doctrines of the Republican Party contradictory, and, more generally, are Christianity and libertarian capitalism compatible?

Max Weber argued that Protestant values were fundamental to the cultural outlook that spawned capitalism, specifically that hard work and self-denial were routes to spiritual (and coincidentally material) prosperity. Calvinist predestination has a role to play as well: the notion that success and prosperity in this life is a sign from God that someone is selected to be Saved. Both of these beliefs were widely accepted in the northeastern American colonies that ultimately served as the crucible of the American industrial capitalist elite.

I'm open to correction on this, but the social justice and welfare precepts of Christianity are more often associated with Catholicism.

That is making the huge mistake that assuming the "Christian Values" the republican party likes to talk about are in any way linked the the teachings of the 1st century Jewish prophet known today as "Jesus". It is also making the mistake of assuming that what the Republican Party says to it's supports amongst the general population, and what it's higher echelons actually believe, are in any way linked.

Max Weber argued that Protestant values were fundamental to the cultural outlook that spawned capitalism, specifically that hard work and self-denial were routes to spiritual (and coincidentally material) prosperity. Calvinist predestination has a role to play as well: the notion that success and prosperity in this life is a sign from God that someone is selected to be Saved. Both of these beliefs were widely accepted in the northeastern American colonies that ultimately served as the crucible of the American industrial capitalist elite.

I'm open to correction on this, but the social justice and welfare precepts of Christianity are more often associated with Catholicism.
That's very true, and I think there is something to be said for the "Protestant work ethic." But there's a difference between seeing industry as a virtue and seeing accumulation of wealth as a virtue.

its a label to appeal to its voter block

I'm open to correction on this, but the social justice and welfare precepts of Christianity are more often associated with Catholicism.

its a good thing the first welfare state (the UK) has such a rich catholic heritage : P

its a label to appeal to its voter block



its a good thing the first welfare state (the UK) has such a rich catholic heritage : P

Didn't the first proposed UK welfare (http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html) state involve Catholics?

That's very true, and I think there is something to be said for the "Protestant work ethic." But there's a difference between seeing industry as a virtue and seeing accumulation of wealth as a virtue.

The accumulation of wealth was seen as a sign of industry, if memory serves. Poverty was often seen as a sign of various vices, mainly sloth. So when one is virtuous one gains wealth. When one isn't, one is poor.

its a label to appeal to its voter block



its a good thing the first welfare state (the UK) has such a rich catholic heritage : P

Bismarck's Germany may have you beat there. The Anglican tradition also borrows more from Catholicism than the Calvinist rabble that gathered around Massachusetts in the 18th century.

That's very true, and I think there is something to be said for the "Protestant work ethic." But there's a difference between seeing industry as a virtue and seeing accumulation of wealth as a virtue.

Bear in mind that I'm neither a Protestant nor a libertarian, so don't take this as an endorsement. ;) But the Calvinists believe(d) that God had already decided at the beginning of the world who was going to heaven and who wasn't; actions on Earth couldn't change your final destiny. Signs of well-being on Earth, however, were interpreted as signs that one was marked for a heavenly afterlife--accumulation of wealth wasn't seen as a virtue so much as a sign that someone was going to heaven (which is even better).

So, thoughts? Are the doctrines of the Republican Party contradictory, and, more generally, are Christianity and libertarian capitalism compatible?

of course. even worse is when you contemplate just how radically opposed the market is to conservatism at all. the only thing they can actually like about it is that it creates such rigid hierarchies of power and status - which is apparently enough. because it sure doesn't promote 'traditional family values' or whatever the fuck they are yammering on about these days.

Weird. If I recall correctly, Jesus Himself said something about how unlikely it was for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Weird. If I recall correctly, Jesus Himself said something about how unlikely it was for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

yeah, like anybody listens to mexicans

So if Jesus came back today, he would be seen as an illegal immigrant and deported?

I don't see why not. The free market and capitalism don't necessarily equal greed and materialism; indeed, without a solid income and a strong economy it would be impossible to provide charity for the poor and other unfortunates in society let alone help them build a better future for themselves.

Sadly, however, it seems there is a significant problem with greed and materialism in some Christian communities (see that dubious justification known as "prosperity theology" promoted by slick televagelists) and that tends to be the kind that is most visible among the elites in the Republican party. After all, you can't grease the wheels of the political establishment without cash, and it's much easier to buy power if you brush aside your duties to others and your community.

The free market and capitalism don't necessarily equal greed and materialism

though it is certainly hard to see how it could avoid them - they are winning strategies within its rules.

Max Weber argued that Protestant values were fundamental to the cultural outlook that spawned capitalism, specifically that hard work and self-denial were routes to spiritual (and coincidentally material) prosperity.
And what does self-denial have to do with capitalism?

though it is certainly hard to see how it could avoid them - they are winning strategies within its rules.
You've never heard of a greedy, materialistic poor person? Or a philanthropic, spiritual rich person?

And what does self-denial have to do with capitalism?


Admittedly, its been all but lost in the consumerist turn of the 20th century but deferred gratification was considered an intrinsic capitalist value at the time Weber was writing: the idea being that you work hard, save up the fruits of your labour (capital) and reinvest it for greater returns in the future.

Admittedly, its been all but lost in the consumerist turn of the 20th century but deferred gratification was considered an intrinsic capitalist value at the time Weber was writing: the idea being that you work hard, save up the fruits of your labour (capital) and reinvest it for greater returns in the future.
Yeah, but that's not so much self-denial as it's a particular time valuation of money. Self-denial would be to ignore one's own wishes and consider them unimportant, which is probably part of Protestant Christianity but not really of capitalism.

You've never heard of a greedy, materialistic poor person? Or a philanthropic, spiritual rich person?

a winning strategy, not an unbeatable under any circumstances at all one

Self-denial would be to ignore one's own wishes and consider them unimportant, which is probably part of Protestant Christianity but not really of capitalism.

But by saving, particularly if you're poor, you are ignoring a certain category of immediate wishes and considering them unimportant by privileging another category that can only be realized later. Whether or not self-denial is in the capitalist mantra, capital accumulation certainly is.

a winning strategy, not an unbeatable under any circumstances at all one
Meh, sounds like platitudes to me.

Whether or not self-denial is in the capitalist mantra, capital accumulation certainly is.
Yes. But capital accumulation and self-denial aren't one and the same thing. Just because I happen to save my money to buy a Ferrari doesn't mean I'm a self-less person or not concerned with my personal happiness.

Hell, looking at it that way even Christians who are frugal because they want to go to heaven don't do it because they're self-less.

Yes. But capital accumulation and self-denial aren't one and the same thing. Just because I happen to save my money to buy a Ferrari doesn't mean I'm a self-less person or not concerned with my personal happiness.


I think you're mistaken in equating self-denial with selflessness. Fasting is self-denial, but its not selfless. All I'm talking about is the deferral of gratification.

Meh, sounds like platitudes to me.

do you deny that the complex of traits known as greed tends to do very well for itself under capitalism (or, perhaps, those that do well for themselves disproportionately tend to share said complex)?

Something that has confused me for a long time, and is only becoming worse during this election year, is the Republican Party's mix of adherence to "Christian values" and the free market. I like a system of private property and profits just as much as the next guy, but to declare that the economic system the Republicans preach is not only the best but morally good seems antithetical to their Christian values, at least some of them. What's more, whenever there have been political structures that are nominally Christian, there is always a bit of welfare system going on. (Hospitals in medieval monasteries, for example.)

So, thoughts? Are the doctrines of the Republican Party contradictory, and, more generally, are Christianity and libertarian capitalism compatible?

Thank you for posting this thread. Had the same thought over the last week myself. *bows*

And what does self-denial have to do with capitalism?

Self-denial has nothing to do with capitalism in general. It does have something to do with what is called the protestant work ethic where the accumulation of wealth was a sign of salvation, but actually spending this wealth on luxuries was considered sinful. So basically one should make money but not enjoy it.

I think you're mistaken in equating self-denial with selflessness. Fasting is self-denial, but its not selfless. All I'm talking about is the deferral of gratification.
Fair enough, a misunderstanding then. I tend to take self-denial as the denial of the fact that one, as an entity that exists, has needs and wishes that are to be considered of primary importance to that entity if it's going to continue existing.

do you deny that the complex of traits known as greed tends to do very well for itself under capitalism (or, perhaps, those that do well for themselves disproportionately tend to share said complex)?
Well, what exactly are the traits that make up "greed"?

Christianity teaches voluntary charity. A Christian is to care for the foreigner, the fatherless, and the widowed. There is a long tradition of Christians founding hospitals and orphanages, and prior to the UN, the vast majority of aid workers worldwide were missionary doctors. Even now the missionary physicians may outnumber the UN aid workers, but I don't know where to find any such statistics.

Capitalism does not necessarily mean greedy suits on Wall Street. "Capitalism" is a very general term that refer to all economic models that employ private ownership and control of wealth and production. To state that some example of capitalism is inconsistent with Christian values does not mean that all capitalist philosophies are incompatible with the Bible.

Is the Kettle Black?

Excellent thread -- it's answered some questions for me. This is one of those uncommon "proud of NSG" moments. *wipes tear*

Okay, that's over. All we need now is the requisite troll to come on in and baked-bean-fart his way into lowering the tone.