NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7501328.stm

EU pledges fund to rebuild Kosovo

The European Union has pledged 500m euros ($789m, £400m) to help rebuild Kosovo at an international donors conference in Brussels.

Kosovo is seeking to raise a total of 1.5bn euros ($2.4bn, £1.2bn) to improve infrastructure, energy and employment.
I don't know why we're giving the Kosovan state money, in the slightest. The KLA was, and its people in government today remain terrorists. It's almost exactly the same situation as we have today in the Basque country, or with the PKK wanting a seperate Kurdish state.

That's my opinion, anyway, yours?

Because Serbia attempted genocide?

Regional fragmentation in Europe sucks.
First they want authonomy...
And then they want to join the EU...
AND when they are finally in the EU they start squealing that they want more authonomy...

Milosević did to Serbia what Hitler did to Germany. There was genocide all over Jugoslavija, but that doesn't mean Serbia should have what has been rightfully their's for almost one-thousand years taken away from them. Besides, if Kosovo is to be run like Albania is, I really despair. The place is an absolute, poverty-stricken dump, and the Kosovans will want the Serbs back when the food runs out. There is just too much racism on both sides for me to take the Kosovan "independence" seriously.

P.S. The PKK aren't as bad as they're made out to be, by the way. It's not forum topic, I just thought I'd say that the Kurds are people who rightfully deserve their own state, whereas Kosovo is just an old Turkish stronghold in the heart of ethnic Serbia.

Because Serbia attempted genocide?

And Turkey not?

Kosovo is sovereign territory of Serbia. As it should be rather than having this new "nation".

Because Serbia attempted genocide?
Oh, and the KLA are angels?

P.S. The PKK aren't as bad as they're made out to be, by the way. It's not forum topic, I just thought I'd say that the Kurds are people who rightfully deserve their own state, whereas Kosovo is just an old Turkish stronghold in the heart of ethnic Serbia.

We ARE talking about the organisation who kidnapped 3 Germans 2 days ago, right?

Mind you, I would support the Kurds in their movement for an independent state, definitely. But I do not support any form of terrorism, and this seems to be what the PKK is mainly engaged in.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7501328.stm


I don't know why we're giving the Kosovan state money, in the slightest. The KLA was, and its people in government today remain terrorists. It's almost exactly the same situation as we have today in the Basque country, or with the PKK wanting a seperate Kurdish state.

That's my opinion, anyway, yours?

The only explanation I can come up with is that it's seen as a preventative measure... Poverty usually breeds more extremism. Not always, but in many cases.

I'm not entirely sure I'm too happy with giving this amount of money, without control over how it's spent, to a country like that...

Actually CW, I suppose in some ways you're right. A lot of well-minded, Leftist Kurds join the PKK, but it's the only organisation they can join. Considering the entire capitalist world hates Kurdistan, it's sort of understandable, but I would never condone kidnapping innocents.

Then again, are these Germans innocent? I haven't heard about that yet, which is weird, because I practically have the news wired into my brain 24/7.

I would definitely support the Kurds in the attacks against the Turkish military. I have nothing against the Turkish people, but really everyone in Turkey has a responsibility to end their government's oppression of the Kurds.

Milosević did to Serbia what Hitler did to Germany. There was genocide all over Jugoslavija, but that doesn't mean Serbia should have what has been rightfully their's for almost one-thousand years taken away from them. Besides, if Kosovo is to be run like Albania is, I really despair. The place is an absolute, poverty-stricken dump, and the Kosovans will want the Serbs back when the food runs out. There is just too much racism on both sides for me to take the Kosovan "independence" seriously.
Quite, and Thaci's links to organised crime make Berlusconi look like a straight character.
P.S. The PKK aren't as bad as they're made out to be, by the way. It's not forum topic, I just thought I'd say that the Kurds are people who rightfully deserve their own state, whereas Kosovo is just an old Turkish stronghold in the heart of ethnic Serbia.
A people whose terror campaign against the Turkish has cost around 30,000 lives, over 1,000 of which were of foreign tourists. Oh yes, I really empathise with them.

I would definitely support the Kurds in the attacks against the Turkish military.
How's about on their attacks of civilians, and tourists, eh?

Actually CW, I suppose in some ways you're right. A lot of well-minded, Leftist Kurds join the PKK, but it's the only organisation they can join. Considering the entire capitalist world hates Kurdistan, it's sort of understandable, but I would never condone kidnapping innocents.

Then again, are these Germans innocent? I haven't heard about that yet, which is weird, because I practically have the news wired into my brain 24/7.

I would definitely support the Kurds in the attacks against the Turkish military. I have nothing against the Turkish people, but really everyone in Turkey has a responsibility to end their government's oppression of the Kurds.

I wasn't aware that the "capitalist world" hates Kurdistan... I would have said that most are simply lamentably ignorant about the issue.

Are the Germans innocent of what???
No, the story hasn't even made the news much outside Germany, but here's a link (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,565110,00.html) to what happened.

The whole issue basically revolves around this :


This week's kidnapping is widely regarded as a response to the ban the German government imposed on the Kurdish television station Roj TV in June. Interior Minster Wolfgang Schäuble said at the time that the station was a mouthpiece for the PKK, which was banned in Germany in 1993 (more...) after it carried out a series of fire-bombings of Turkish and German institutions in Berlin.

How's about on their attacks of civilians, and tourists, eh?

Absolutely not, that's pure evil. But not every PKK soldier has done that, nor is it in their doctrine. I would regard that as the work of rotten eggs in the organisation. What do you really expect though; the PKK is kinda hopeless.

How's about on their attacks of civilians, and tourists, eh?

Come to think of it, have they ever attacked the military in any way? I vividly remember the bombing spree they went on in the early 90's, and it was all directed at civilians and tourists...

its an E.U pet project I guess along with the whole "lets make sure stuff like this doesn't happen again" mentality that only comes about after ethnic clashes

I would definitely support the Kurds in the attacks against the Turkish military. I have nothing against the Turkish people, but really everyone in Turkey has a responsibility to end their government's oppression of the Kurds.

*calls police to arrest you for badmouthing the Turkish state*

A people whose terror campaign against the Turkish has cost around 30,000 lives, over 1,000 of which were of foreign tourists. Oh yes, I really empathise with them.

well you can kind of understand why they are a bit pissed off can't you?

Milosević did to Serbia what Hitler did to Germany. There was genocide all over Jugoslavija, but that doesn't mean Serbia should have what has been rightfully their's for almost one-thousand years taken away from them. Besides, if Kosovo is to be run like Albania is, I really despair. The place is an absolute, poverty-stricken dump, and the Kosovans will want the Serbs back when the food runs out. There is just too much racism on both sides for me to take the Kosovan "independence" seriously.

P.S. The PKK aren't as bad as they're made out to be, by the way. It's not forum topic, I just thought I'd say that the Kurds are people who rightfully deserve their own state, whereas Kosovo is just an old Turkish stronghold in the heart of ethnic Serbia.

Well said.

INo, the story hasn't even made the news much outside Germany, but here's a link (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,565110,00.html) to what happened.
It's on Euronews!
Absolutely not, that's pure evil. But not every PKK soldier has done that, nor is it in their doctrine. I would regard that as the work of rotten eggs in the organisation. What do you really expect though; the PKK is kinda hopeless.
Not good enough.
Come to think of it, have they ever attacked the military in any way? I vividly remember the bombing spree they went on in the early 90's, and it was all directed at civilians and tourists...
Aye, about 5,000 soldiers have been killed by the PKK. Which is actually less than the amount of civilians, ho hum.

well you can kind of understand why they are a bit pissed off can't you?
Absolutely, but bombing tourists and putting cyanide in peoples' water is simply not cricket.

It's on Euronews!

Not watching those much. I couldn't find anything on BCC nor the Times, which is why I linked to the Spiegel.


Aye, about 5,000 soldiers have been killed by the PKK. Which is actually less than the amount of civilians, ho hum.

Sounds like the soldiers were killed accidentally, while they were targeting perfectly guilty civilians, shoppers and sunbathers. ;)

Not watching those much.
:eek: But it's echt cool etc.!
I couldn't find anything on BCC nor the Times, which is why I linked to the Spiegel.
Fair enough.
Sounds like the soldiers were killed accidentally, while they were targeting perfectly guilty civilians, shoppers and sunbathers. ;)
No, that would be unfair, they [i]did[i/] target soldiers, especially in the chaos and aftermath of the 1980 coup d'état. But still, they were indeed targetting civilians more, and have continued to.

I'm cruising along at the moment, just watching. All these people are idiots to care about what the map looks like, but that's fine.

I'll start ranting when the EU does the next thing to deny sovereignty to the oppressed minority in the de facto independent seperatist region of North Kosovo. The only thing worse than nationalist idiots are hypocritical idiots.

I'm cruising along at the moment, just watching. All these people are idiots to care about what the map looks like, but that's fine.

I'll start ranting when the EU does the next thing to deny sovereignty to the oppressed minority in the de facto independent seperatist region of North Kosovo. The only thing worse than nationalist idiots are hypocritical idiots.

*shrugs*
If they want independence, they can have it. Never saw any reason to refuse that to anybody, if they think they'll be better off in a smaller and poorer country, good for them.

"Freiheit fuer Oberfranken!"

Come to think of it, have they ever attacked the military in any way? I vividly remember the bombing spree they went on in the early 90's, and it was all directed at civilians and tourists...

Recently, they've attacked Turkish military convoys, hence the Turkish invasion of Iraq. And yes, a lot of the Western world favours Turkey over Kurdistan, because the Americans have ICBMs in Turkey, amongst many other illicit assets.

Seems to me like the US is trying to get another nation under its wing, even if its mean creating a new one, to have another claw arounds Russias neck.

Seems to me like the US is trying to get another nation under its wing, even if its mean creating a new one, to have another claw arounds Russias neck.

Er... :confused:

What?

How does this say anything about the US? Or Russia, for that matter?
And "Russia's neck"? Geography isn't your strong side, is it?

How does this say anything about the US? Or Russia, for that matter?
And "Russia's neck"? Geography isn't your strong side, is it?

shhh at this rate he will never uncover the secret E.U plot to turn the world under a prosperous and egalitarian hell hole!

Recently, they've attacked Turkish military convoys, hence the Turkish invasion of Iraq. And yes, a lot of the Western world favours Turkey over Kurdistan, because the Americans have ICBMs in Turkey, amongst many other illicit assets.
Also because the Turkish aren't shooting/bombing/kidnapping our general citizenship who have the 'cheek' to try to enjoy Turkey.

Er... :confused:

What?

How does this say anything about the US? Or Russia, for that matter?
And "Russia's neck"? Geography isn't your strong side, is it?

Hate to say it Cabra, but you're wrong. ICBMs in Turkey are well in range of Russia, and if you knew you history, you'd know that American-Turkish cooperation regarding ICBMs caused the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Hate to say it Cabra, but you're wrong. ICBMs in Turkey are well in range of Russia, and if you knew you history, you'd know that American-Turkish cooperation regarding ICBMs caused the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Not that there are any US ICBMs in Turkey these days...

Hate to say it Cabra, but you're wrong. ICBMs in Turkey are well in range of Russia, and if you knew you history, you'd know that American-Turkish cooperation regarding ICBMs caused the Cuban Missile Crisis.

And what's that got to do with the US wanting to create a new nation, now???

I was sort of assuming he was talking about Kosovo...

I think that in the modern political climate, if they catch you committing genocide too close to the rest of Europe, you lose all status. It doesn't matter then what your enemies do - they can now do anything they want.

Genocide elsewhere is OK. Like in Africa. But don't do it near nations like Italy, Germany, and France. It gives them flashbacks.

We shouldn't have and never should have had anything to do with the conflict in the Balkans. What goes on over there is of no concern to the UK. It's just a waste of money and was a waste of lives of British soldiers (And still could be if it blows up again). The whole thing's just another part of the list of pointless wars this country has been dragged into.

So you'd have been happy to watch innocent civilians die instead of doing the right thing as a UN an NATO nation? That's just bad...

So you'd have been happy to watch innocent civilians die instead of doing the right thing as a UN an NATO nation? That's just bad...

Show me something in the UN Charter that says it's anyone's obligation to go in there.

According to Chapter VII, the Security Council alone can authorize any enforcement action, and if they don't, then you can't.

The dividing line is also one of domestic self-determination - technically, if it's an internal affair, you can't do anything about it.

On that point alone, you could have argued that the whole Kosovo/Balkan thing was an internal Yugoslavia affair, and unless it spread outside of those borders, no action should be taken.

Britain is a member of the security council!! You could also say that Germany invading Czechoslovakia was none of the U.K.'s business... which is exactly what Chamberlain did. Do we really want a repetition of that?

Britain is a member of the security council!! You could also say that Germany invading Czechoslovakia was none of the U.K.'s business... which is exactly what Chamberlain did. Do we really want a repetition of that?

Just because you're a member doesn't authorize (or even mandate) that you take action.

NATO took action in Kosovo in violation of UN Charter and in violation of international law. It wasn't until afterwards that they passed some stuff to cover their asses.

We didn't invade Rwanda over their genocide. And we didn't invade Iraq over their killing of 300,000 Shias. And we aren't invading Sudan.

Yes, it's a very frosty joke, the UN. And if you do something without UN approval, people bitch.

The UN is more trouble than it's worth sometimes... If there's genocide, deal with it. That should be an unavoidable rule.

The UN is more trouble than it's worth sometimes... If there's genocide, deal with it. That should be an unavoidable rule.

No one has those kinds of testicles anymore.

Hmm. Maybe if Chuck Norris became a nation. Or Godzilla.

Seriously though, because of the honourable peacekeeping forces from Britain, Ukraine, Poland, U.S.A., France etc. many innocent Jugoslavs and Albanians were saved.

Because Serbia attempted genocide?

But they didn't. They just moved people around a bit and some died. But genocide, no.

The whole serbia thing stinks. And it was a very stupid move because at the time people were like 'WWI started in that region blah blah blah... stability...blah blah blah'. Well now, O wearers of asses for hats, you have a situation where Russia (teh USSR release 2.0) supports serbia, and the mindless EU (and by extension the US) supports Kosovo. Good job! Very nice and stable.

Don't whine when Medvedev turns of the heating this winter.

(On the plus side, the Serbian foolishness does make US actions in Iraq - or anywhere else it damn well pleases - legal)

But they didn't. They just moved people around a bit and some died. But genocide, no.

The whole serbia thing stinks. And it was a very stupid move because at the time people were like 'WWI started in that region blah blah blah... stability...blah blah blah'. Well now, O wearers of asses for hats, you have a situation where Russia (teh USSR release 2.0) supports serbia, and the mindless EU (and by extension the US) supports Kosovo. Good job! Very nice and stable.

Don't whine when Medvedev turns of the heating this winter.

(On the plus side, the Serbian foolishness does make US actions in Iraq - or anywhere else it damn well pleases - legal)

It certainly makes it difficult for Canada to complain that the US attacks without UN permission, when it bombed the shit out of civilians in Serbia without UN permission.

It certainly makes it difficult for Canada to complain that the US attacks without UN permission, when it bombed the shit out of civilians in Serbia without UN permission.

Apparently it's only illegal if you use tanks.

...bombed the shit out of civilians in Serbia...

Fascist governments (Milosević's) leave a trail of death in ranks of innocent people. Then again, American "strategic bombing" is basically terrorism, and absolutely sucks shit since it achieves nothing more than thousands of dead civilians, coupled with the odd military target getting a bit bruised.

Hate to say it Cabra, but you're wrong. ICBMs in Turkey are well in range of Russia, and if you knew you history, you'd know that American-Turkish cooperation regarding ICBMs caused the Cuban Missile Crisis.

There weren't any ICBMs in Turkey leading up to, or during, the Cuban Missile Crisis.

So you'd have been happy to watch innocent civilians die instead of doing the right thing as a UN an NATO nation? That's just bad...
I'm sorry, but you support the PKK, so I don't think you really get to comment on this to be quite honest.

The UN is more trouble than it's worth sometimes... If there's genocide, deal with it. That should be an unavoidable rule.
That's a particularly stupid opinion, to be quite honest. You only put your troops vaguely under the control of the UN if you agree to, so it's not 'more trouble than it's worth', and avoiding genocide helps nobody out.
Hmm. Maybe if Chuck Norris became a nation. Or Godzilla.
Ah yes... Chuck Norris jokes. Original and very not passé, at all, in the slightest.

I'm sorry, but you support the PKK, so I don't think you really get to comment on this to be quite honest.

Er, do you want to just go back and read my comments on the PKK? If not, then maybe you should be kicked out of your "elite intellectual clique", 'eh?

That's a particularly stupid opinion, to be quite honest. You only put your troops vaguely under the control of the UN if you agree to, so it's not 'more trouble than it's worth', and avoiding genocide helps nobody out.

WHAT? We shouldn't avoid genocide? Wtf are you on?!

Er, do you want to just go back and read my comments on the PKK?
Aye, which basically amount to "I support them, except for when they attack civilians." On the other hand, since they've killed more civilians than military personnel, I don't see why you'd support them at all, to be honest.
If not, then maybe you should be kicked out of your "elite intellectual clique", 'eh?
As you ought to have already read at least once, that comment was in jest...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7501328.stm


I don't know why we're giving the Kosovan state money, in the slightest. The KLA was, and its people in government today remain terrorists. It's almost exactly the same situation as we have today in the Basque country, or with the PKK wanting a seperate Kurdish state.

That's my opinion, anyway, yours?


They're "liked", Serbs aren't. My concern would be for the three border provinces that have Serb majority. I don't see why they should have been included in the Kosovan state, given that neither side can be trusted with the other.

They're "liked", Serbs aren't. My concern would be for the three border provinces that have Serb majority. I don't see why they should have been included in the Kosovan state, given that neither side can be trusted with the other.

True, true. To what extent do you believe the new Kosovan state will be involved with organised crime?

True, true. To what extent do you believe the new Kosovan state will be involved with organised crime?

O I've no idea. Presumably it will go through a "rough" period before it stabilises as many states seem to.

They're "liked", Serbs aren't.
They're "liked" by the US and some EU members, and not by others.
My concern would be for the three border provinces that have Serb majority. I don't see why they should have been included in the Kosovan state, given that neither side can be trusted with the other.
Quite.
True, true. To what extent do you believe the new Kosovan state will be involved with organised crime?
Probably a lot, seeing as Thaci has strong links with Albanian organised crime groups.

They're "liked" by the US and some EU members, and not by others.


Indeed. Fair arbitration is a bit of a pipe dream.

not only should the EU give this money to help Kosovo, but Serbia should be forced to pay the remainder of the Kosovo rebuilding request. start air strikes until they do.

not only should the EU give this money to help Kosovo, but Serbia should be forced to pay the remainder of the Kosovo rebuilding request. start air strikes until they do.

No

No

and why not. It is because of Serbia that Kosovo got messed up so bad to begin with.

The Hispanic Republic of Miami Jai-Alai welcomes the new nation and people of Kosovo.

I checked Kosovo, reserved, that name was used by a former nation.

Foreign Affairs Minister, Elian Gonzalez.

The Hispanic Republic of Miami Jai-Alai welcomes the new nation and people of Kosovo.

I checked Kosovo, reserved, that name was used by a former nation.

Foreign Affairs Minister, Elian Gonzalez.




I hope this is a troll post...


Kosovo will fall apart pretty quickly anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Jai-Alai
The Hispanic Republic of Miami Jai-Alai welcomes the new nation and people of Kosovo.
I checked Kosovo, reserved, that name was used by a former nation.

Foreign Affairs Minister, Elian Gonzalez.


I hope this is a troll post...

Kosovo will fall apart pretty quickly anyway.

No troll post, I dont even know what a troll post is. Nor do I care to troll.

With the help of the European Union and eventual membership Kosovo will not fall apart pretty quickly anyways.

Should Kosovo join the European Union?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7501328.stm


I don't know why we're giving the Kosovan state money, in the slightest. The KLA was, and its people in government today remain terrorists. It's almost exactly the same situation as we have today in the Basque country, or with the PKK wanting a seperate Kurdish state.

That's my opinion, anyway, yours?

Being a terrorist is purely figurative. Surely the American Revolutionaries were regarded as terrorists by the British.

How will they avoid the membership fees? They're broke enough as it is!

How will they avoid the membership fees? They're broke enough as it is!

They're mates with the head bouncer. Helps. Otherwise Israel would have been thrun out years ago.

Yeah, I suppose both countries are surrounded by people who hate them. Still, Kosovo has Albania, whereas Israel's on its own.

With the help of the European Union and eventual membership Kosovo will not fall apart pretty quickly anyways.
It's going to be one of those really shitty countries we'd like to forget is actually in Europe. See Albania.
Should Kosovo join the European Union?
Nope, and nor will they get in if the Spanish have anything to do with it.
Being a terrorist is purely figurative.
Seeing as the KLA kidnapped and killed thousands of people without being state agents of any kind, I don't really see how they're anything but terrorists.
Surely the American Revolutionaries were regarded as terrorists by the British.
Absolutely. And some of them were very much guilty of attacks of civilians etc., but they won in the end, so that's not how they're seen by most Americans.
How will they avoid the membership fees? They're broke enough as it is!
The EU just gave the bastards a billion Euros. And it says (in a completely cheeky fashion) that member states should make their own donations.
They're mates with the head bouncer. Helps.
Also mates with the Albanians, who are mates with the Italian mafia, who run Italy, so that helps too. And for some reason the UK supports them, despite the KLA being almost exactly the same as the IRA.
Otherwise Israel would have been thrun out years ago.
Of the EU?

We should make Kosovo part of NATO. along with the Ukraine and Georgia.

Of the EU?

I though he meant the UN there...They'll probably let the other lot in the EU soon enough...The song contest entries were the 'foot in the door'...

I though he meant the UN there...They'll probably let the other lot in the EU soon enough...
Doubt it.
The song contest entries were the 'foot in the door'...
Not really. Most of the countries not in the EU who entered tunes to the Eurovision song contest have been doing so for a decade plus, and would be members of a Mediterranean Union, where that to be created. Turkey will never join the EU, because all it takes is for one state to say no and the decision gets tanked.

We should make Kosovo part of NATO. along with the Ukraine and Georgia.
*sighs*

No thanks. Ukraine, maybe, but Georgia and Kosovo, absolutely not, seeing as their countries are going to get invaded by Russia/Serbia sooner or later.

Doubt it.

Not really. Most of the countries not in the EU who entered tunes to the Eurovision song contest have been doing so for a decade plus, and would be members of a Mediterranean Union, where that to be created. Turkey will never join the EU, because all it takes is for one state to say no and the decision gets tanked.

Thanks to replies like that, I know my decision not to pursue a career as a humourist was correct.

Thanks to replies like that, I know my decision not to pursue a career as a humourist was correct.
Ah, sorry. The internets deprive man of his rawest power - sarcasm.

Ah, sorry. The internets deprive man of his rawest power - sarcasm.

I'd like to think so, but the truth is that perhaps my power has faded. I will go now, to stare out the window, mournfully.

*sighs*

No thanks. Ukraine, maybe, but Georgia and Kosovo, absolutely not, seeing as their countries are going to get invaded by Russia/Serbia sooner or later.

isn't the point of NATO to prevent countries from being invaded by Russia ?
I mean if we are only going to let in 100% safe countries join Nato we might as well call ourselves the alliance of Frenchmen.
not to mention it seems like Russia would love to reassert control over the Ukraine as well.