NationStates Jolt Archive

Right now.... well, right now, I'm not driving anything, but I own a Toyota Land Cruiser 80. Not the best choice for road driving, especially with some off-road modifications, but I do need it. Yet it isn't enough - I also need a road/track car, for I'm getting deeper into performance driving. I participated in some off-road trial, but over the past couple years I've been getting increasingly involved in amateur road/track racing.

Adding to that, with the rising gas prices it's becoming more and more economical to have a separate road car. That's not a requirement, though, most of all I need a car for cocking about or amateur racing, normal road driving ability is just a plus, though a big one.
As I'm both saving my pay and getting the return on older investments, in about a year's time I'll be able to afford one.

But the question is, which specifically to buy? The choice today is pretty rich. I've basically narrowed it down to these: Nissan GT-R, Lotus Elise, Toyota MR2, Ariel, Radical or Ultima, Porsche 911 and TVR T350T.
Of course, they all are very different vehicles. It's no mistake. I'm not really sure which kind I should choose. Or which is which, really, for that matter.

I want a combination of two things - race performance and raw fun. Racing is strictly amateur for me, though, so here it's only as important as it brings extra fun. Any cocking around gets boring, competition is the way to get extra kicks. Choosing a car is hard, and doubly so when you're possibly going to modify it, thus limiting the resale ability.

So, here are my thoughts on the primary candidates so far. Just to clarify, it's a mix of new and used cars; I of course can't buy a used GT-R, but for the rest, there are both options.
Of course, they are opinionated, because they are opinions. But if there's something factually wrong, corrections are welcome.


[Question solved.]

1. Nissan Skyline R35 GT-R. [/SIZE]

Reasons for buying this car are obvious. It's a one of the fastest production road cars in the world right now. The GT-R lapped Nurburgring in 7:29, in completely stock configuration, for comparison, Veyron apparently needs 7:40. And that's a stock GT-R, which has twice less power:weight. It will also keep its value, thanks to limited production.

It's a great grand tourer, offering all you can want for the long road touring, yet almost all you need for a track. It's like Aston Martin DB9, but faster. And it's a car I would enjoy to own.
A perfect car? Seems so. But, at the second look it has problems, and big ones.
The GT-R weighs 1700kg. This is as much as most other "heavyweight" supercars - Lambos, Astons, et cetera. And it's heavy. Heavy means lazy steering and detached control. I can't say I like it. The weight doesn't even seem justified. Yes, I wouldn't like a 500kg car with zero comforts either, but 1700kg is a bit over the edge, since even the four-door Evo is only 1400kg. It's not a "muscle bus" like these German 560hp estate cars, but it's seriously overweight.
Were it a convertible, I'd perhaps like it more, but it isn't - that limits the fun factor further.
This is one problem. Another is that the GT-R is difficult to tune. You can't even change the wheels, because the tire pressure monitoring doesn't recognize aftermarket rims. Yes, the ECU has been cracked... the wheel problem will be cracked... but it all means money. And at $80,000, the R35 is an expensive car already. It's not a car that's cheap to tune.

Doesn't stock performance justify that? Maybe. But no road car, not a sports car, not a supercar, and not the Nissan, can keep up with a racing car anyway.
Nonetheless, objectively, it's still a bargain. Many similar cars cost twice, thrice that and more, and don't nearly deliver the performance, yet sell great. It's only expensive compared to tracksters, but cheap compared to, for instance, Aston Martins.



2. Lotus Elise.

No need to explain, it's the sharpest-handling production road car money can buy. Except maybe for Exige. And Elise is a convertible... powersliding with wind in your hair - now that is my idea of fun. Fun, refined, distilled, spiced and packed into a small nimble car. No car enthusiast can keep it out of the selection when choosing his/her car.
But, it's not completely enough. I don't like the way Elise looks, and it's just not a car you enjoy owning. Driving, not owning. It's very much a track-oriented car, but all such cars have the same issue as the GT-R - no supercar can hold a candle to a true track car. It's close to, but not a true track car.

And it isn't as much value as the exclusive Nissan. Elise is always easily available, and depreciates at a steady pace. It's a very small car, and it's not too practical. Not that I need the rear seats, I'll throw them out of the GT-R anyway, but I do like the level of comfort the GT-R offers. Just as an extra, you know, an ability to actually go on a grand tour.
So, for what it is, Lotus Elise is expensive. It's not that I can't afford it; I can; but I'm not sure if I should. It costs almost like a Nissan, but isn't anywhere as fast, anywhere as comfortable, and, while being small is generally a plus, a small car also should cost less. Feels like injustice; otherwise, I seriously like it, because it's very much my idea of a sports car as well.



3. Toyota MR2, race-modified.

Why a worse car than the Lotus? Well, because it's seriously cheap, and very much like Elise. They have almost the same engine, same layout, and generally, are similar cars. And MR2 is very tunable. It's the best candidate to turn into an actual track car. The result may be not road-legal... then I can tow it behind the Land Cruiser, or on the boat trailer. But probably it will stay road-legal, just to reach a track, yet otherwise decidedly a track car. Cheaper than anything else, and faster than anything else.
But... then, it's no longer something to drive daily. Expensive to run, uncomfortable. Worse than Lotus. Still, it's a very interesting variant. Track tuning can get a car far out of its league. I wonder what do you think about this variant.



4. A "trackster" - Ariel, Radical, Ultima.

Speaking about racecars, you can make one out of a cheap road car, or you can take something already designed for it. Ariel Atom, various Radical and Ultima models are good candidates. They need very little conversion, and all are open cars. I can't say which I like best, but they all are in the same category, track cars with just enough road ability to get to the track. And, of course, even in stock they beat any road car, including the GT-R.

But are they even real cars? And will one be much better than the MR2 with the same money put into it?



5. Porsche 911 Carrera 4.

Probably a 996, and Carrera 4 for its better handling, but maybe some other one.
On the surface, it's a very good car - it's got everything I want. It has good looks, it has a certain amount of respectability, it has 4 wheel drive, it has a smooth flat-6, and it's very classic.

Underneath, it's even better. Yes, people think of Porsche 911 as an expensive car, but it really isn't. Used Porsches are quite affordable. But what's more, I've talked to Sumer (aka Dostanout Loj), who comes from racing background, and, according to him, it's even cheap in the long run. It's reliable, long-lasting, and it's so popular that the maintenance cost will be lower than for any other of the cars mentioned, except maybe MR2. It may be slower than the GTR, but it's a convertible, and 60mph in a convertible feel faster than 100 in a coupe.
[...]



So, NSG, what do you think? Maybe anyone here owns or has driven one or more of these cars (those that are out, at least)? Anyone with good familiarity with any of them, or racing in general?
I'm interested in the opinion on any of the cars, as well as general ideas about the choice. Or, just maybe, look at something else? I don't think there are many competitors to these, but still.

Any other related advice is welcome as well. I know it's not a racing and not even an automotive forum, but it's a large board - I'm sure I can get some useful input here.

For me it'd be between the Porsche and the Elise. I love Porsches and have had one (a dinky little 914, sorry, I'm not rich). My dad had a 356 when I was a kid and that, too, was a blast. Yes, the 911 hasn't changed much over the 30+ years, but it's like Reeses Peanut Butter Cups, when you get it right the first time, fucking with it doesn't work. Porsche is the bench mark, you can always find a car that does something better than a Porsche, but not everything. If you wanted your track car to serve regular car duty, the Porsche is your car. I'm guessing your British because TVR is in your line up and you think that Porsche is the cock car. Here, that distinction is for Corvette owners. There are cocks in Porsches, but most of the Porsche owners I know are pretty cool cats. I think a lot of the Porsche reaction comes from when you're at the top of the heap for 50 years it just starts to breed resentment. Thats what happens when you have things like almost twice the number of Le Mans wins as the next highest manufacturer. There's an amateur 25 hour race here in California and despite people bringing all manner of machinery, it's the people who bring Porsches that end up on the podium.

The Lotus is the modern expression of Graham Chapman's ideal and is the perfect track day car. It's no bullshit, no filler, all killer. If you're a driver and want a one to one relationship with the track and you, that's the car. The only way you could do better is to quit pussyfooting and get the Exige or the 340 R. It's sports car in its purest form.

You kind of know this already, because you included it in you assesment. Here's my challenge to you-your objections to both cars speak to one uncomfortable thing, and I'll be blunt about it. Poser. You know these are the best cars on the track, so are you a racer, or a poser?

Ariel Atom.

Look what it does to your face:
http://www.pureclarkson.com/wp-content/uploads/jeremy-clarkson.jpg

http://www.pedalcarzone.com/cgi-bin/image/templates/Big_Wheel_Pic-DRV2-PCZ.jpg

Hi, I don't think there are many die-hard sports car fans on this forum. In fact, We might be the only ones.

The Toyota MR2 and the Elise have the same engine don't they? I know they use to put celica/mr2 engines in elises. Either way, Both of those cars are too small to be practical. They are track-day cars. And if you want to really go for a balls-to-the-walls track car, then the ariel atom/catterham/lotus 7 is only real option here. I rode passenger in a caterham kit car with a miata engine at an autocross one time. That thing is fucking insane!

Also, unless you get the supercharged version, the MR2/elise is terribly underpowered. My old roomate has an 92 mr2 and my VW golf 1.8t will give it a run for its money any day. Don't get me wrong, they have super sharp handling, (I have ridden in both cars) but the engine leaves something to be desired.

Personally, if money is no option here, I would go for the Porsche. I read the Road and Track article where they compared the carrera and the GT-R. First of all, 7 seconds faster may sound like a lot, but remember the Nurburgring is 14 fucking miles long. Plus, all the R&T editors that drove both cars picked the Porsche as the car they would rather have. They all said that, while the GT-R was faster, it felt brutish and hard to drive. I have driven an 88 Porsche 911 and I can say that it handled like a dream. Porsche may be cliche but they are always a safe bet.

I would stay away from the TVR if I were you. I don't know much about them but they are notoriously unreliable and the company has gotten weird ever since that Russian guy bought them.

I don't know if you are planning to buy used, but the cars on your list are all at very different price points. An Elise might run you $40,00 but a carrera would be more like $90,000.

Some other serious sports cars that you might want to consider would be the Corvette, BMW M3, Audi S4, Mitsubishi Evo, Subaru WRX STI, and the VW R32.

Those are all in the $30,000 to $40,000 range brand new. I don't know how you feel about American cars, but the corvette is a lot of car for the money. In fact, with 400 bhp, its nearly a super-car. The M3 and the S4 are not as fast, but they are much more civilized, plus they'll clean an Mr2's clock.

http://image.motortrend.com/f/features/auto_news/9234569/112_0702_01z+2008_corvette_ss+side_view.jpg
2008 Chevy Corvette

http://www.chevrolet.com/comparator/addVehicle.do?divisionCode=ch&modelYear=2008pvc=11702pvc=11702&pvc=null&cmpModelYear=2008&cmpMakeName=Lotus&cmpModelID=5765&cmpModelTrimID=24098&

2008 CHEVROLET CORVETTE | 2008 PORSCHE 911 CARRERA 4 | 2008 LOTUS ELISE

Horsepower @ RPM
430@5900 325@6800 189@7800

Torque @ RPM
424@4600 273@4250 133@6800


Power everything, at x1.25 the cost of the Lotus 80% of the Porshe, ...and better fuel economy than either. LOL! :)

Power everything, at x1.25 the cost of the Lotus 80% of the Porshe, ...and better fuel economy than either. LOL! :)
Not really. Corvette has 15-16mpg urban, and that's with its cheater CAGS system which everyone removes or circumvents. Lotus has 20, and Porsche 17-18. Without that cheater system, 'vette is even worse.

Power doesn't define a sports car. An engine can be tuned to whatever power you want. The 2.6L Skyline Inline-6 engines manage 1000-1200 bhp, and still as reliable road-track cars with decent engine life, and keeping the Skyline's legendary handling. Drag ones go 1300+, but drag ones don't count.


The Toyota MR2 and the Elise have the same engine don't they? I know they use to put celica/mr2 engines in elises. Either way, Both of those cars are too small to be practical. They are track-day cars.
I find them quite practical, actually. I don't need a people carrier and a tow truck... I have a car to fill that role. Practical in here just means a car one can drive around the city, to work, or wherever. Caterham certainly isn't one.


I read the Road and Track article where they compared the carrera and the GT-R. First of all, 7 seconds faster may sound like a lot, but remember the Nurburgring is 14 fucking miles long. Plus, all the R&T editors that drove both cars picked the Porsche as the car they would rather have. They all said that, while the GT-R was faster, it felt brutish and hard to drive.
It's not 7 seconds... It may be 7 seconds between the racing (GT) version, and the Nissan. The latest Turbo is 27 seconds slower, and non-turbo even more. I'll probably have to stick with a non-turbo.
Yes, I know the GTRs are difficult to drive well, but then it's a pretty rewarding car, once you master it. I hope the new R35 at least is as good as the R34.

BTW, would you suggest to go for the older and more expensive 993, or just get a 996?


I don't know if you are planning to buy used, but the cars on your list are all at very different price points. An Elise might run you $40,000 but a carrera would be more like $90,000.
They're on different price points because tuning isn't included in the price.
A used Toyota MR2 is cheap, but if turned into a racecar, the only things left will be basically the chassis and the steering wheel, and even the chassis possibly modified to take a bigger engine.
"Tracksters" just cost what they cost.
Porsche would certainly be a used one... I'm generally looking at the $50,000-$60,000 price range, a slightly used Elise also fits in there.
Nissan GT-R at $80,000 is an exception, but it's a new car that holds its value, plus it's the highest-performance one out of the lot.


Some other serious sports cars that you might want to consider would be the Corvette, BMW M3, Audi S4, Mitsubishi Evo, Subaru WRX STI, and the VW R32.
Well, I've been considering Evo and STI, but the rest are a bit too low-performance, except for M3, which is too expensive and just not worth it. And VW is a Volkswagen, and it looks... or rather it doesn't.
I'm for go, not for show, but I've decided that I want a real sports car, not just a performance modification, even if it's as good as Evo or M3. They just don't have the feeling you get from at least as much as Toyota MR2.


I don't know how you feel about American cars, but the corvette is a lot of car for the money. In fact, with 400 bhp, its nearly a super-car. Not nearly, it's far removed from that. If raw power made a supercar, then any 1960s car would be one. Or anything tuned.
Supercars are about handling and style. The only cars in the list that are frequently, or really even sometimes called supercars are Lotus Elise and Nissan GT-R (with 480hp untuned, by the way). I don't think they're quite there - not expensive and exclusive enough for supercars - but at least they are somewhere in the niche between sports cars and supercars.

I don't like American cars for their poor ride and handling. To be fair, Corvette is the best-handling American car, but it sacrifices ride for that. Anyone can put hard springs on a car to make it handle. And all good results 'vette has scored were achieved with even more race tuning; again, any car can be tuned for a race and post good times.

Finally, it's just not in the same league I'm looking at. Come on... if you were given a choice between 'vette and Porsche 911, would you even doubt? It's an affordable car, it's value for money, it's bringing performance down to the man, but it's just not as good as more serious cars.

The M3 and the S4 are not as fast, but they are much more civilized, plus they'll clean an Mr2's clock. Heh! I don't really need civilized. Decent interior, yes, but handling should be brutal and aggressive.

I give you some low-cost, low-consumption alternatives.

FIAT Panda 4x4, the utility car of choice in the Alps, also available with LPG/petrol or Diesel/methane motors.
FIAT Sedici (16), the larger version of the Panda 4x4
Nissan Defender, a serious 4x4, choice of the italian Carabinieri for rural and mountain areas
Volkswagen Touareg, a small and versatile SUV.
Honda HRV, small, maneuverable, and less expensive than most crossovers.

I'm generally looking at the $50,000-$60,000 price range, a slightly used Elise also fits in there.

???

For that you could get a 'slightly used' Exige. You can get a brand new Elise SC. Hell, for $60k you could get two used Elises.

???

For that you could get a 'slightly used' Exige. You can get a brand new Elise SC. Hell, for $60k you could get two used Elises.
Yeah, of course. I should have put it more clear, I'm looking at anything under 60k (unless it's something that holds value), not between 50k and 60k. It's not like I have won a lottery and have a specific sum of money to spend.
Lotus Elise, in my opinion, isn't a car really worth buying new. I'd rather save money and buy a slightly or moderately used one. Or spend the money on tuning, although how much one can tune such a high-tuned car as Lotus is a big question.


I give you some low-cost, low-consumption alternatives.
You misunderstood a bit... I'm not seeking to replace the truck, since it has expensive modifications to handle rougher terrain, and I need its capabilities.
I just won't drive it on the road, except when towing the trailer or carrying something heavy. So I'm looking for a road car.

My uninformed opinion is that the Porsche is the way to go. It's the best all-round choice, even if others have some particular stuff that they beat it at. Plus I don't really get where the "cock" thing comes from. If you have a Boxter then fair enough... cock, but a 911? Plus you can't be anywhere near as much of a cock than a Ferrari owner.

For pure track driving, the Radical SR8 is what you want. You want fun? That thing is absolutely insane - none of your fancy 'driver assists', just pure control and absolute exhilaration. Seat of your pants stuff at its finest. You want grip? The SR8 may as well have glue on its tires, it's got so much downforce. It got round the Nürburgring almost half a minute faster than the piffy Nissan Skyline (http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/trackdayvideos/61467/radical_sr8_smashes_nrburgring_lap_record.html), holding the present road-legal record of 6:55. And because it's road legal, you can actually get it to the tracks easily.

The SR3 is another good one (also previously hold the road-legal record, though it was a couple of seconds slower), and they're cheap too (there's one listed on Autotrader in the UK at the moment for £12,000), but they just don't have the same power or handling as the SR8.

I'm keen on the Radicals... they're radical (ugh).

From what you're saying, I'd go with the trackday special. There's really no point in buying a Porsche filled with leather, satnav, aircon and flash stereo and taking it to the track.

Give them all a try and decide which one you like best.

For the road - the skyline
For the track - Ariel Atom - no substitute!

However, if you're properly racing the car, you'll have to take into account series regulations, club classes available etc. I'd say you'd have more choice of series with the porsche probably. Also - make sure you have the correct licence for the series you want to race in before you get the car! Is there no way you can stretch to a porsche 996 GT3 rs?

For pure track driving, the Radical SR8 is what you want.
True. It's what I want for pure track driving.

But a SR8 costs 80,000 pounds, and even a used one is cents short of 50,000 pounds or $100,000.

I simply can't afford it, unless I sell all every paper I can sell. And even then, with a Toyota truck, you buy it, and you just buy fuel from now on - not with a racecar. You have kilobuck tires that last one race, parts to be replaced each thousand miles, engine rebuilds. It's expensive to buy and expensive to keep.
And it's crap. For anything except track driving, it's the worst car you could have. You can't drive it to work, you can't rally, all you can is get it to the track.

I'm ready to spend maybe 20 kilobucks on a track toy, but really not 100. I'm not a professional racer, and I'm not a rich kid.

Maybe something cheaper, in that 20k, maybe 35k area... but is it really good enough?

However, if you're properly racing the car, you'll have to take into account series regulations, club classes available etc. I'd say you'd have more choice of series with the porsche probably. Also - make sure you have the correct licence for the series you want to race in before you get the car!
I'm not... Sorry for misunderstanding, I only race for fun, not professionally. I might once do it semi-professionally, but not more. So I'm not licensed, and I'm not properly racing the car.

So some luxuries still matter. They're secondary, but still, a car with all luxuries (like Skyline GT-R) is somewhat better than a bare-boned racer that shakes your bones all through in an hour. Yet I'm considering an option of a separate racecar and road car, but only if it's really worth that.


Give them all a try and decide which one you like best.
Unfortunately, it's not so easy... The Nissan, for one, doesn't let people test-drive the GT-R, and it's understandable - even though the car isn't out yet, they have more purchase requests already than the total production run. Test-driving a 911 might be tricky, since the sellers tend to have a thinking "it's a Porsche, how can you doubt its ride?", but I'll manage. Test-driving the tracksters is usually outright impossible.


Is there no way you can stretch to a porsche 911 carrera rs?
996 GT3 RS?
There might be, but it's hard. They're expensive, and there are very few offers. A new one is out of the question.
Plus, the RS is heavily stripped. It's not what I like. I'm OK with a bareboned racer, but only for a bareboned price - not twice the price of an actual car. And a stripped-out Porsche isn't worth it, there are much better barebone racers out there, the Radical, for one.

Heh. Thanks for a strong reply, and sorry for delay.
For me it'd be between the Porsche and the Elise. I love Porsches and have had one (a dinky little 914, sorry, I'm not rich). Well, I'm not rich either. You don't want to know what I used to drive when I lived off my parents' money. Just did a few good choices later and can afford a second-hand 911.

Here, that distinction is for Corvette owners. There are cocks in Porsches, but most of the Porsche owners I know are pretty cool cats.
Huh... Yeah, the 'vette is much much more of a cock car than Porsche. And there are other cock cars, like M3. I think, with that in mind, a Porsche is OK.


The Lotus is the modern expression of Graham Chapman's ideal and is the perfect track day car. It's no bullshit, no filler, all killer. If you're a driver and want a one to one relationship with the track and you, that's the car.
But, not the best one. It's still not a track car.
On the other hand, Chapman's ideal is very much the same as my ideal. I really love the sharp, responsive steering, and the crazy reflexes of the Lotus.
If only it was faster, that'd be a no-brainer.


You kind of know this already, because you included it in you assesment. Here's my challenge to you-your objections to both cars speak to one uncomfortable thing, and I'll be blunt about it. Poser. You know these are the best cars on the track, so are you a racer, or a poser?
No, I'm not a poser. I want a car that works on the track, and works well.

But there's a new player in town. Not counting racecars, the best car on track is now the Nissan Skyline GT-R. It's fast, it corners like nothing else, it can be tuned to do everything else better as well. It's not really a new player, Skylines have rocked for two decades, but now it got even more serious. Porsche 911 is just one of the contenders.
The absolutely best cars on track are track cars, of course.

So, if I'm not a poser and I want both road and track quality, I have to go for the Nissan.
The appeal of 911 rather lies in its fun factor.

Have you thought about the Corvette Z06?

Or better yet the new ZR1, which is faster around the ring than a 911 Turbo 4WD.

have you thought about modifying your own car? try a S130 or S30 series Nissan/Datsun from 1970 to 1980, have a garage fit a 800HP turboed RB30DET engine and a LSD diff, a bit of chassis strengthening and you have a daily driver if you stay off the boost, and a track/drag car when you floor it and rev up into the boost range.

Theres a guy in NZ, in Rotorua who's driving a street legal 240Z with over 1000Hp. fastest street legal japanese import in NZ at 8.7 sec 1/4 mile and still able to potter around town.

check out www.forums.hybridz.org and search for R.I.P.S NZ

none of them. lobby for more and better public transportation and vote for them at election time. and USE whatever alternatives to driving are available to you as much and as often instead as you can.

i don't know when it will happen, but its a pretty safe bet that it will, that a day will come when none, or damd near none, of us, of anyone, will be able to afford to drive the damd things anyway.

a battery powered two wheeler or riding lawn mower or something like that, maybe with onboard solar charging, will likely replace them, in places where there really is too low a population density to support guideway based systems of some kind.

but most places, nearly all places where most people live today, aren't too undensely populated to support some sort of public system of a small enough form factor, when the economics of that gets done being politically monkeyed with.

=^^=
.../\...

Q: How many NSG posters does it take to help you choose a car?
A: 14:
2 to tell you to be environmental and to walk everywhere
1 to tell you that your pricings are wrong
3 to say arial atom because it did something to Jeremy Clarkson
2 to recommend something ridiculously different which will not serve your needs (ie. modify old school car, fiat panda)
2 to post funny pictures
2 to debate the cockitude of porsches
1 to tell you to buy a less fancy car and use the leftover money to buy them a car (that's me)
and
1 to actually discuss the merits of the different cars that fit your requirements

Q: How many NSG posters does it take to help you choose a car?
A: 14:
2 to tell you to be environmental and to walk everywhere
1 to tell you that your pricings are wrong
3 to say arial atom because it did something to Jeremy Clarkson
2 to recommend something ridiculously different which will not serve your needs (ie. modify old school car, fiat panda)
2 to post funny pictures
2 to debate the cockitude of porsches
1 to tell you to buy a less fancy car and use the leftover money to buy them a car (that's me)
and
1 to actually discuss the merits of the different cars that fit your requirements

the only "car" that fits any real "requirements" to drive one, is a mini-pickup or mini-van, still preferably battery or some other form of clean energy propelled.

or better yet, a battery powered riding lawn mower.

=^^=
.../\...

If you can afford it, I would go with the Porsche 911, that car is so awesome

True. It's what I want for pure track driving.

But a SR8 costs 80,000 pounds, and even a used one is cents short of 50,000 pounds or $100,000.

I simply can't afford it, unless I sell all every paper I can sell. And even then, with a Toyota truck, you buy it, and you just buy fuel from now on - not with a racecar. You have kilobuck tires that last one race, parts to be replaced each thousand miles, engine rebuilds. It's expensive to buy and expensive to keep.
And it's crap. For anything except track driving, it's the worst car you could have. You can't drive it to work, you can't rally, all you can is get it to the track.

I'm ready to spend maybe 20 kilobucks on a track toy, but really not 100. I'm not a professional racer, and I'm not a rich kid.

Maybe something cheaper, in that 20k, maybe 35k area... but is it really good enough?

Sorry, I thought normal driving was just a plus, I guess a car that needs an umbrella to keep the rain off you probably isn't a good idea then. But if the SR8 is too rich for your wallet, try looking around for an SR3. Just as insane, slightly slower, but much cheaper. You can pick those up used for £10k - £15k these days.

I haven't had the pleasure of trying any of the other cars you're considering except for the Lotus, which is fun but not in the same league as a Radical. It'd keep you drier, though...

I'm a Porche geek, so the 911 got my vote automatically. They've officially lost the 'cock' badge as well.

A blue one

lobby for more and better public transportation and vote for them at election time. and USE whatever alternatives to driving are available to you as much and as often instead as you can.
Hmm. Well, I have an opportunity to move around on one nice machine that makes 50 feet per gallon at 40 mph. And I'm not driving it, so it's an alternative to driving.

---

Sorry, I thought normal driving was just a plus, I guess a car that needs an umbrella to keep the rain off you probably isn't a good idea then.
It's a plus in the sense you get more of a car. Say, SR8 can be really used only on a dry day on a paved track (which is paid) or an extremely good road (which have cops). 911 Carrera 4 can be used on a dry day or a wet day, on any road or track, including a rally one (which are often free), and mildly off-road. And you can do it for hours without your bones shattering.

But if the SR8 is too rich for your wallet, try looking around for an SR3. Just as insane, slightly slower, but much cheaper. You can pick those up used for £10k - £15k these days.
Slightly slower? Or maybe really not slightly?

Also, I wonder, how much do they last before rebuild? The engine, other components. I admit, 250hp from a 1300cc engine is only as much density as you get on Evo, but then it's a light engine.

I haven't had the pleasure of trying any of the other cars you're considering except for the Lotus, which is fun but not in the same league as a Radical. It'd keep you drier, though...
Well, I understand. But maybe I'm not fit for that league yet. I'm a noob, basically... I might be a very good driver by road standards, but by track ones, I'm a newbie. I have concerns that I'll be unable to handle a Radical. They're build for racers, not for middle-aged guys who want to cock around, as I understand. Lotus is more of just a car for anybody, maybe it's the actually the best compromise between the softcores, supercars and racers.

But maybe I'm wrong. It's just what I think.

If you want to go fast, and feel like you're going fast, and save money and gas at the same time, buy a motorcycle.

Actually, it's a popular misconception that bikes are faster. While superbikes indeed accelerate somewhat faster at low speed, and while a few bikes also have high top speeds, they're terrible in corners, and not as fast around an actual track as a car. It's just that they look and feel extremely fast.

Plus, bikes are seriously dangerous. There's no such word as safety in their design, and it's very easy to crash. Cars can be with relatively safety pulled over the edge, bikes can't.

Have you thought about the Corvette Z06?
Or better yet the new ZR1, which is faster around the ring than a 911 Turbo 4WD.
Are you kidding? The ZR1 sells for $300,000. It's a halo car that has a lot to do with Corvette, but basically it's heavily factory-tuned.
Z06 is just not a good car. It's fast, but nothing else. Poor ride, poor interior, mediocre quality.


have you thought about modifying your own car? try a S130 or S30 series Nissan/Datsun from 1970 to 1980, have a garage fit a 800HP turboed RB30DET engine and a LSD diff, [a bit of chassis strengthening [...]
Yes, that's what the MR2 option was about. MR2 makes a good base, since it's mid-engined at start.
But then I'm not sure if it's going to turn out better than a normal car, say the 911.

If only the 911 had its engine in the right place...

Hey, there's more than 1 high performance sports car fan you missed... like me for instance.

That said, I'm a bit torn on all of them. Me being a bit crazy, I'd get the TVR, and then crash, which more likely than not will eventually happen, given the lack of anything which assists in safety. So, that boils everything down to the others. Track day cars are horrid on the road, for the most part, and don't do well with the stop and go traffic. The Elise suffers from some of the same problems, I'd love one for a lap of the Nurburgring, but wouldn't drive it on a street. MR2 I don't know enough about to comment on, so I'll leave it to the others.

So that narrows it down to the GTR and the 911. I haven't driven the C4, but I have driven a standard 996 Carrera, excellent car, fantastically light clutch and gearbox, really easy to operate, but it's not as fast as the GTR, nor is it as capable in terms of being taken to the limit, so it's a bit of a tossup. Honestly, being a performance freak, I'd take the GTR, but insofar as also getting something that will impress a bit, the Porsche wins.

But, also consider the BMW M3, assuming BMW is even in the question, I own an E46 and it's bloody fantastic.

But, also consider the BMW M3, assuming BMW is even in the question, I own an E46 and it's bloody fantastic.

This. The GT-R is a tad bit heavy and makes up for it with excellent suspension tuning and endless power. However, the M3 is light and is a fantastic track car. Save for the iDrive shit and the somewhat bumpy ride as an everyday driver, I'd pick the M3 over the GT-R.

If only the 911 had its engine in the right place...
Well, first of all, the 911 is all about the engine being where it is. If it weren't there, it wouldn't be what it is.

Secondly, if that's your dilemma, get a Cayman S and put a supercharger on it. It'll do you nicely.

Well, first of all, the 911 is all about the engine being where it is. If it weren't there, it wouldn't be what it is.

Secondly, if that's your dilemma, get a Cayman S and put a supercharger on it. It'll do you nicely.

Yeah, even with the engine in the back, Porsches can do things no ordinary car can.

I hear that the Boxter (I can't remember the name now... >.<) has a fairly good suspension balance. For a good chunk of change, you could let RUF do some work on it...

Mosler MT900 *nods* outside your price range, but a kickass car.

I'd say get the Atom for a pure race car, or the MR2 for a tuner road/track car. If you're modifying it, you don't even need to look for a stock blower. My brother-in-law installed a turbo on his Ford Probe 4 cylinder. I'm sure the parts for an upgrade may be cheaper than holding out for the top-end model to show up on a used car lot.

This. The GT-R is a tad bit heavy and makes up for it with excellent suspension tuning and endless power. However, the M3 is light and is a fantastic track car. Save for the iDrive shit and the somewhat bumpy ride as an everyday driver, I'd pick the M3 over the GT-R.
Actually, M3 weighs about as much as the GT-R - 3700lbs versus 3800lbs. This is weight you add or take in half an hour.
And have you driven the older Skyline GT-R, the R32-R34?


Well, first of all, the 911 is all about the engine being where it is. If it weren't there, it wouldn't be what it is.
Secondly, if that's your dilemma, get a Cayman S and put a supercharger on it. It'll do you nicely.
It would be better if they put the engine in the middle. Just a bit fore. No one can fit into the 911 rear seats anyway. All other Porsche sports cars are mid-engined.

Gayman and Coxter are mid-engined, but there's an issue with them. Porsche is very thorough ensuring they aren't better than the 911. So both cars scream, "My life didn't go as well as I hoped, so I couldn't afford the 911". Nothing wrong with it, but look, it's not something you like to scream about.


Yeah, even with the engine in the back, Porsches can do things no ordinary car can.
Mostly bad things, like deep oversteer spins.
And do you know what the Skylines can do? And they're mere front-engined cars, not front-mid transaxle like R35.

So, it's a pretty tough choice. But I put Cayman out of the equation, since it's not convertible - thus, loses a lot. Now, the Coxter is a convertible... Still, they worked too hard to make sure it's not better than 911.


If you're modifying it, you don't even need to look for a stock blower. True. But then it depends on modifications. A 911 or a GT-R has a greater potential than MR2, unless you make MR2 into a pure racer.

Years ago I owned a Jensen Interceptor. Crap car, but you have to knock the pussy off it with a shitty stick.

In conclusion you should buy a Jensen Interceptor.

Gayman and Coxter are mid-engined, but there's an issue with them. Porsche is very thorough ensuring they aren't better than the 911. So both cars scream, "My life didn't go as well as I hoped, so I couldn't afford the 911". Nothing wrong with it, but look, it's not something you like to scream about.
You do realise that we've all seen Top Gear, right? We've all heard the quote, and it's not being made any smarter by repetition. Fact of the matter is that once I start my real job, a used Boxster will be on the list along with the Elise and Evo IX. And I don't give the slightest hint of a shit about what anyone else thinks about that.

Sorry if that sounds confrontational, but I think cars are being ruined because of people who buy them because of what they "scream" to others.

Mostly bad things, like deep oversteer spins.
Clearly.

Look, fact of the matter is that the unique setup of the 911 is what makes it different from every other car out there. It requires that you learn a very specific style of driving, and perfecting it takes years of commitment and effort. That's what makes it rewarding and what has kept the legend alive. Get a 993 or earlier rather than 996 or 997 and you'll feel it even more so.

Still, they worked too hard to make sure it's not better than 911.
Hence the supercharger. The chassis is set up as well as you'd expect from a Porsche. Different springs if you feel the need will make it more track-biased. But the real difference is that it's down on power against a 911, for no particular reason. So you give it more and your problem is solved.

Of course, I'd still prefer a 911 to such a modded mid-engined Porsche, but that's just me.

And I don't give the slightest hint of a shit about what anyone else thinks about that. It's not what others think. It's the regret that you could have a 911, but have a Boxter.

And I'll be getting Carrera 4 anyway, the all-wheel drive version, which has something to compensate for the engine placement.

That's what makes it rewarding and what has kept the legend alive. Get a 993 or earlier rather than 996 or 997 and you'll feel it even more so.

Yeah, I know. And RWD is further more so.


Hence the supercharger. The chassis is set up as well as you'd expect from a Porsche. Different springs if you feel the need will make it more track-biased. But the real difference is that it's down on power against a 911, for no particular reason. So you give it more and your problem is solved.

Of course, I'd still prefer a 911 to such a modded mid-engined Porsche, but that's just me.
The thing is that I probably too. I'm not all that keen about Boxster because most of its capabilities can be achieved by modding a MR2. It's not even lighter than 911.

Also, I'm wondering if it's possible to improve the weight distribution and overall handling of the 911. Remove the rear seats (which are a joke anyway), maybe try to use that space.
I mean improvement not to the point where it loses its character, but just to add more refinement to handling.

Well, I understand. But maybe I'm not fit for that league yet. I'm a noob, basically... I might be a very good driver by road standards, but by track ones, I'm a newbie. I have concerns that I'll be unable to handle a Radical. They're build for racers, not for middle-aged guys who want to cock around, as I understand. Lotus is more of just a car for anybody, maybe it's the actually the best compromise between the softcores, supercars and racers.

But maybe I'm wrong. It's just what I think.

Yeah, unless you're after a family car you can't really go wrong with a Lotus. The Radicals might be a bit excessive if you're not planning on setting any speed records or anything. Lotus might not be as fast as some, but the Elise definitely has that 'fun factor' - particularly if you get a pre-2006 Series 2. As does the Exige too, in greater quantities. You can even take them shopping, apparently, as I see plenty of the things down at the supermarket (usually yellow ones, for some reason).

So do most TVRs actually, if you're willing to take certain death as part of its driving requirement...

Also, I'm wondering if it's possible to improve the weight distribution and overall handling of the 911.
I think it's safe to say that the best attempt at doing so comes from Porsche itself. Just look for a 996 GT3 or 993 Carrera RS.

To be honest, I really don't understand what you want. You say you like the 911 and would want one, and then you moan about the weight distribution and the engine being in the wrong place. That makes no sense at all.

The point of driving isn't about setting the fastest time (unless you're actually competing), but about learning the most and having the most fun. In really capable hands, a GT3 Porsche will do both. A Carrera (and again, the effect of AWD is simply to take away from the 911 experience) may not do the former, but it's still got the latter boxes ticked.

If you want to go to the track and beat everyone, get a Radical. If you want to go to the track and come back a better driver, get a rear-engined, rear-wheel drive Porsche.

Which sports car should I buy?Right now.... well, right now, I'm not driving anything, but I own a Toyota Land Cruiser 80. Not the best choice for road driving, especially with some off-road modifications, but I do need it. Yet it isn't enough - I also need a road/track car, for I'm getting deeper into performance driving. I participated in some off-road trial, but over the past couple years I've been getting increasingly involved in amateur road/track racing.

Adding to that, with the rising gas prices it's becoming more and more economical to have a separate road car. That's not a requirement, though, most of all I need a car for cocking about or amateur racing, normal road driving ability is just a plus, though a big one.
As I'm both saving my pay and getting the return on older investments, in about a year's time I'll be able to afford one.

But the question is, which specifically to buy? The choice today is pretty rich. I've basically narrowed it down to these: Nissan GT-R, Lotus Elise, Toyota MR2, Ariel, Radical or Ultima, Porsche 911 and TVR T350T.
Of course, they all are very different vehicles. It's no mistake. I'm not really sure which kind I should choose. Or which is which, really, for that matter.

I want a combination of two things - race performance and raw fun. Racing is strictly amateur for me, though, so here it's only as important as it brings extra fun. Any cocking around gets boring, competition is the way to get extra kicks. Choosing a car is hard, and doubly so when you're going to modify it, thus limiting the resale ability.

So, here are my thoughts on the primary candidates so far. Just to clarify, it's a mix of new and used cars; I of course can't buy a used GT-R, but for the rest, there are both options.
Of course, they are opinionated, because they are opinions. But if there's something factually wrong, corrections are welcome.




1. Nissan Skyline R35 GT-R.

Reasons for buying this car are obvious. It's a one of the fastest production road cars in the world right now. The GT-R lapped Nurburgring in 7:29, in completely stock configuration, for comparison, Veyron took 7:40. And that's a stock GT-R, which has twice less power:weight than the Veyron. It will keep its value, thanks to limited production.

It's a great grand tourer, offering all you can want for the long road touring, yet almost all you need for a track. It's like Aston Martin DB9, but faster. And it's a car I would enjoy to own.
A perfect car? Seems so. But, at the second look it has problems, and big ones.
The GT-R weighs 1700kg. This is as much as most other "heavyweight" supercars - Lambos, Astons, et cetera. And it's heavy. Heavy means lazy steering and detached control. I can't say I like it. The weight doesn't even seem justified. Yes, I wouldn't like a 500kg car with zero comforts either, but 1700kg is a bit over the edge, since even the four-door Evo is only 1400kg. It's not a "muscle bus" like these German 560hp estate cars, but it's seriously overweight.
Were it a convertible, I'd perhaps like it more, but it isn't - that limits the fun factor further.
This is one problem. Another is that the GT-R is difficult to tune. You can't even change the wheels, because the tire pressure monitoring doesn't recognize aftermarket rims. Yes, the ECU has been cracked... the wheel problem will be cracked... but it all means money. And at $80,000, the R35 is an expensive car already. It's not a car that's cheap to tune.

Doesn't stock performance justify that? Maybe. But no road car, not a sports car, not a supercar, and not the Nissan, can keep up with a racing car anyway.
Nonetheless, objectively, it's still a bargain. Many similar cars cost twice, thrice that and more, and don't nearly deliver the performance, yet sell great. It's only expensive compared to tracksters, but cheap compared to, for instance, Aston Martins.



2. Lotus Elise.

No need to explain, it's the sharpest-handling production road car money can buy. Except maybe for Exige. And Elise is a convertible... powersliding with wind in your hair - now that is my idea of fun. Fun, refined, distilled, spiced and packed into a small nimble car. No car enthusiast can keep it out of the selection when choosing his/her car.
But, it's not completely enough. I don't like the way Elise looks, and it's just not a car you enjoy owning. Driving, not owning. It's very much a track-oriented car, but all such cars have the same issue as the GT-R - no supercar can hold a candle to a true track car. It's close to, but not a true track car.

And it isn't as much value as the exclusive Nissan. Elise is always easily available, and depreciates at a steady pace. It's a very small car, and it's not too practical. Not that I need the rear seats, I'll throw them out of the GT-R anyway, but I do like the level of comfort the GT-R offers. Just as an extra, you know, an ability to actually go on a grand tour.
So, for what it is, Lotus Elise is expensive. It's not that I can't afford it; I can; but I'm not sure if I should. It costs almost like a Nissan, but isn't anywhere as fast, anywhere as comfortable, and, while being small is generally a plus, a small car also should cost less. Feels like injustice; otherwise, I seriously like it, because it's very much my idea of a sports car as well.



3. Toyota MR2, race-modified.

Why a worse car than the Lotus? Well, because it's seriously cheap, and very much like Elise. They have almost the same engine, same layout, and generally, are similar cars. And MR2 is very tunable. It's the best candidate to turn into an actual track car. The result may be not road-legal... then I can tow it behind the Land Cruiser, or on the boat trailer. But probably it will stay road-legal, just to reach a track, yet otherwise decidedly a track car. Cheaper than anything else, and faster than anything else.
But... then, it's no longer something to drive daily. Expensive to run, uncomfortable. Worse than Lotus. Still, it's a very interesting variant. Track tuning can get a car far out of its league. I wonder what do you think about this variant.



4. A "trackster" - Ariel, Radical, Ultima.

Speaking about racecars, you can make one out of a cheap road car, or you can take something already designed for it. Ariel Atom, various Radical and Ultima models are good candidates. They need very little conversion, and all are open cars. I can't say which I like best, but they all are in the same category, track cars with just enough road ability to get to the track. And, of course, even in stock they beat any road car, including the GT-R.

But are they even real cars? And will one be much better than the MR2 with the same money put into it?



5. Porsche 911 Carrera 4.

Probably a 996, and Carrera 4 for its better handling, but maybe some other one.
On the surface, it's a very good car - it's got everything I want. It has good looks, it has a certain amount of respectability, it has 4 wheel drive, it has a smooth flat-6, and it's very classic.

Underneath, it's even better. Yes, people think of Porsche 911 as an expensive car, but it really isn't. Used Porsches are quite affordable. But what's more, I've talked to Sumer (aka Dostanout Loj), who comes from racing background, and, according to him, it's even cheap in the long run. It's reliable, long-lasting, and it's so popular that the maintenance cost will be lower than for any other of the cars mentioned, except maybe MR2. It may be slower than the GTR, but it's a convertible, and 60mph in a convertible feel faster than 100 in a coupe.

There are some issues, though. Top Gear has phrased it well once: "Cocks drive Porsches". Every cock seems to have one. Not everyone who has one is a cock, but it's easy to get perceived as a cock. It's not as much indiscretion, there's something about Porsche that makes it cockier than others. Perhaps the fact that it's relatively cheap yet high-profile. Ferraris have a certain spirit of refinement around them, Porsches are more vulgar, but not bling, they're stylish, good cars.

And another issue is complete lack of originality. They're making 911 for 50 years, they'll be for 50 more, 100 more, 200 more. My grand-grandchildren will be able to buy their grandchildren a Porsche 911, and it will look very much like the 996, and have same rear engine, RWD or 4WD options. It's not special like a Ferrari - it's just a car, timeless, but never the car of the day. It's not going to disappear anywhere. A good car, but nothing special; not the fastest one, not the best cornering one, not the most fun one, not a big looker, just a very good car.
You would think that an engineer shouldn't care about that, neither should a japanese car owner, so I should doubly overlook it, but the blandness coming from the sheer number of 911 pierces even my skin. I keep maintaining that I'm about go, not show, but - after all, I want to enjoy all aspects of ownership. Yet 911 is a very good car, and I'm still considering it. The question is, how really good is it - is its "go" really worth overlooking the issues and joining the 911 crowd?



6. TVR T350T.

It's a very brutal, aggressive targa-top TVR, powered by an inline 6. OK, you perhaps know what it is, and why I would want it. It's still almost a track car, yet one actually well usable on the road. Not a grand tourer, but usable.
My concern is that this car is not only going to feel like it's going to kill the driver, but actually do it. And while I want to feel the danger, it's not like I want to actually die. Not yet, I hope to buy a plane someday, so I have the time to crash.
Though I'm not sure it's so much more dangerous than the 911. The 911 didn't get its name for nothing, after all. TVR is at least a classic front-mid engine. It's not one handling like an Evo or a Skyline, but it's predictable. Just savage. But in terms of excitement, it's probably the only one here that has a chance to beat the Lotus. A compromise? Perhaps. It's kind of all in one.



So, NSG, what do you think? Maybe anyone here owns or has driven one or more of these cars (those that are out, at least)? Anyone with good familiarity with any of them, or racing in general?
I'm interested in the opinion on any of the cars, as well as general ideas about the choice. Or, just maybe, look at something else? I don't think there are many competitors to these, but still.

Any other related advice is welcome as well. I know it's not a racing and not even an automotive forum, but it's a large board - I'm sure I can get some useful input here.







None of the above, stop trying to compensate.

Lamborghini. Or a tata nano.

It would be better if they put the engine in the middle. Just a bit fore. No one can fit into the 911 rear seats anyway. All other Porsche sports cars are mid-engined.
What? The last mid-engine Porsche before the Boxster/Cayman (Porsche denies it, but really, ones the hard top version of the other) was the 914. The 924/928/944/968 were all front engine cars, as is the coming Panamera.

Gayman and Coxter are mid-engined, but there's an issue with them. Porsche is very thorough ensuring they aren't better than the 911. So both cars scream, "My life didn't go as well as I hoped, so I couldn't afford the 911". Nothing wrong with it, but look, it's not something you like to scream about.

So, it's a pretty tough choice. But I put Cayman out of the equation, since it's not convertible - thus, loses a lot. Now, the Coxter is a convertible... Still, they worked too hard to make sure it's not better than 911.
Not doing wonders convincing that you're not a poser. (to be completely honest, I'm not convinced that this whole thing isn't total bullshit-but it's not a debate worth having so I just take it at face value).

The Cayman S is a limited slip differential away from tracking faster than the 911, that's the sole extent that Porsche has gone to to protect their marque brand. Many cars on your list aren't convertible so that qualification seems dubious. True racers will tell you that the tin top is for the serious driver because it adds rigidity to the car for handling. The Cayman is the best handling car Porsche has ever made...that's saying something. When you find the limit of that car, you've accomplished something. The Cayman isn't the 911 consolation prize, it's their pure handling sports car as the 911 has evolved into their GT (grand tourer).

Too much of your criteria is based on boulevard cred. Here's the dirty secret, you can't buy that. You want it, build yourself a hot rod. There are going to be people who don't like Porsches, people who don't like Skylines (ME!), etc. It doesn't matter. No one at the track is going to be impressed with who you wrote a check to no matter who it was, they want to know how you drive.

Yeah, unless you're after a family car you can't really go wrong with a Lotus. The Radicals might be a bit excessive if you're not planning on setting any speed records or anything. Lotus might not be as fast as some, but the Elise definitely has that 'fun factor' - particularly if you get a pre-2006 Series 2. As does the Exige too, in greater quantities. You can even take them shopping, apparently, as I see plenty of the things down at the supermarket (usually yellow ones, for some reason).


Lotus Yellow. Yellow and Green are Lotus colors like Ferrari Red, or Porsche Silver. If I had the coin to buy an Exige it would be Yellow with a BRG stripe...and my girlfriend would make me keep it under a cover so she'd never have to look at it, but what does she know...

It doesn't matter. No one at the track is going to be impressed with who you wrote a check to no matter who it was, they want to know how you drive.

And expect to be thuroughly thrashed in your $50,000 car by the guy with a $1000 old car with $5000 of mods and engine tune involved, driven by someone who knows to the exact last thousandth of a G-force and Km/H what his car can do and isn't afraid to go hard into those outer limits of the possible.

And expect to be thuroughly thrashed in your $50,000 car by the guy with a $1000 old car with $5000 of mods and engine tune involved, driven by someone who knows to the exact last thousandth of a G-force and Km/H what his car can do and isn't afraid to go hard into those outer limits of the possible.

True story-I work at the Monterey Historic Automobile Races every year. Last year there was a big group of us herded around, behind us passed Ferrari 430s, a Lamborghini was parked not too far away, on and on. None of those cars could distract us from the $15,000 Alpine A110 that we had gathered around.

At Barrett-Jackson, they're impressed with the coin, at the track, it's a different story.

The fuel efficient one. Within a decase oil may reach $8 in Australia. I dont know what it will be in America but it wont be good

I think it's safe to say that the best attempt at doing so comes from Porsche itself. Just look for a 996 GT3 or 993 Carrera RS.
Partially. Motorsport is so full of regulations that there are strong limits to what you can do - tuners are free from these limits.

But these are way too expensive anyway.

To be honest, I really don't understand what you want. You say you like the 911 and would want one, and then you moan about the weight distribution and the engine being in the wrong place. That makes no sense at all.
I like the 911 as a good car, but I'm not exactly a big fan of the 911-specific handling. It could benefit from better weight distribution, and it certainly benefits from AWD.

The point of driving isn't about setting the fastest time (unless you're actually competing), but about learning the most and having the most fun. It's about having fun.
The fastest time belongs to track cars and tuners anyway, not even to Cayman S.

---


What? The last mid-engine Porsche before the Boxster/Cayman (Porsche denies it, but really, ones the hard top version of the other) was the 914. The 924/928/944/968 were all front engine cars, as is the coming Panamera.
Yes, the older ones tended to be front-mid (also can be called mid engine). But not rear-engined.
BTW AFAIK Panamera isn't a sports car, but a performance saloon.

Not doing wonders convincing that you're not a poser. OK... Sorry. It's just that this Top Gear phrase sounds so funny that I couldn't hold myself from repeating it. I didn't really mean it, it's just one of those speech pearls one feels compelled to repeat.

(to be completely honest, I'm not convinced that this whole thing isn't total bullshit-but it's not a debate worth having so I just take it at face value). Well, I can't give you a photo of me holding a huge pile of cash, because I don't exactly have such piles, but you can come to NS Draftroom and ask people whether I've proved enough that I am a naval architect, and then search the web to see whether people in my job, not married, can afford a used sports car, saving for it for 3 years, or not.
---

True racers will tell you that the tin top is for the serious driver because it adds rigidity to the car for handling. I know that. Nonetheless, I'm not a true racer and go more after the fun factor. A convertible gives more feeling of involvement.

The Cayman is the best handling car Porsche has ever made...that's saying something. When you find the limit of that car, you've accomplished something. The Cayman isn't the 911 consolation prize, it's their pure handling sports car as the 911 has evolved into their GT (grand tourer).
Well... As far as pure handling cars go, Lotus Elise is also there. So why Cayman and not Elise then?

And expect to be thuroughly thrashed in your $50,000 car by the guy with a $1000 old car with $5000 of mods and engine tune involved, driven by someone who knows to the exact last thousandth of a G-force and Km/H what his car can do and isn't afraid to go hard into those outer limits of the possible.
Just $1,000 is an exaggeration, but yes, I know and I have seen what tuned cars can do, at least ones in the $20,000+ total cost category.

BTW, a good used 911 costs about $27,000 - less than the average price of a new car (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut11.shtm). And it's reliable, durable and lasting.
So it's not expensive, it's just that some people prefer the smooth shine and electronic luxuries of a new car, and some better handling and driving fun of a used sports car.


The fuel efficient one. That would be Elise. Beats most non-sports cars.
But most others aren't gas-guzzlers either.

The fuel efficient one. Within a decase oil may reach $8 in Australia. I dont know what it will be in America but it wont be good

As Top Gear showed when they got better fuel efficiency out of an M3 than they did out of a Prius, it all depends how you drive the thing.

Well... As far as pure handling cars go, Lotus Elise is also there. So why Cayman and not Elise then?

Ask Car and Driver (http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison_test/coupes/coup_de_coupes_comparison_test/(page)/1).

Yeah driving has got a lot to do with fuel effiency. But that dosnt mean the car has no effect at all.

Screw them all a BMW Z4M roadstar

Yeah driving has got a lot to do with fuel effiency. But that dosnt mean the car has no effect at all.
My 2l, 170hp Clio used to use less than our 1.6l 100hp Golf. It's all in the ability to use the engine's torque to drive around in 5th all the time.

"hurry burry spoils the curry." i love that sign and aggree completely.

to each their own of course, but me personally, fast, in a car? meh.

=^^=
.../\...

Not really. Corvette has 15-16mpg urban, and that's with its cheater CAGS system which everyone removes or circumvents. Lotus has 20, and Porsche 17-18. Without that cheater system, 'vette is even worse.

Power doesn't define a sports car. An engine can be tuned to whatever power you want. The 2.6L Skyline Inline-6 engines manage 1000-1200 bhp, and still as reliable road-track cars with decent engine life, and keeping the Skyline's legendary handling. Drag ones go 1300+, but drag ones don't count.



I find them quite practical, actually. I don't need a people carrier and a tow truck... I have a car to fill that role. Practical in here just means a car one can drive around the city, to work, or wherever. Caterham certainly isn't one.



It's not 7 seconds... It may be 7 seconds between the racing (GT) version, and the Nissan. The latest Turbo is 27 seconds slower, and non-turbo even more. I'll probably have to stick with a non-turbo.
Yes, I know the GTRs are difficult to drive well, but then it's a pretty rewarding car, once you master it. I hope the new R35 at least is as good as the R34.

BTW, would you suggest to go for the older and more expensive 993, or just get a 996?



They're on different price points because tuning isn't included in the price.
A used Toyota MR2 is cheap, but if turned into a racecar, the only things left will be basically the chassis and the steering wheel, and even the chassis possibly modified to take a bigger engine.
"Tracksters" just cost what they cost.
Porsche would certainly be a used one... I'm generally looking at the $50,000-$60,000 price range, a slightly used Elise also fits in there.
Nissan GT-R at $80,000 is an exception, but it's a new car that holds its value, plus it's the highest-performance one out of the lot.



Well, I've been considering Evo and STI, but the rest are a bit too low-performance, except for M3, which is too expensive and just not worth it. And VW is a Volkswagen, and it looks... or rather it doesn't.
I'm for go, not for show, but I've decided that I want a real sports car, not just a performance modification, even if it's as good as Evo or M3. They just don't have the feeling you get from at least as much as Toyota MR2.


Not nearly, it's far removed from that. If raw power made a supercar, then any 1960s car would be one. Or anything tuned.
Supercars are about handling and style. The only cars in the list that are frequently, or really even sometimes called supercars are Lotus Elise and Nissan GT-R (with 480hp untuned, by the way). I don't think they're quite there - not expensive and exclusive enough for supercars - but at least they are somewhere in the niche between sports cars and supercars.

I don't like American cars for their poor ride and handling. To be fair, Corvette is the best-handling American car, but it sacrifices ride for that. Anyone can put hard springs on a car to make it handle. And all good results 'vette has scored were achieved with even more race tuning; again, any car can be tuned for a race and post good times.

Finally, it's just not in the same league I'm looking at. Come on... if you were given a choice between 'vette and Porsche 911, would you even doubt? It's an affordable car, it's value for money, it's bringing performance down to the man, but it's just not as good as more serious cars.

Heh! I don't really need civilized. Decent interior, yes, but handling should be brutal and aggressive.

Man you must have some moo-la to be considering these cars. Does your company need any chemists?

Anyway, thanks for clarifying. Yeah, the GT-R is more of a beast than I thought. Personally, I think the Elise or the Porsche would be the car to get. When I rode passenger in the Elise, I could not believe the speed that we took around corners. I was expecting to spin out at any second, but with the right tires, that thing sticks to the road like glue. Plus, Its just about the coolest looking car on ur list.

But If I was putting my money on something, I would put it on a 993. The 996 is probably a little faster and better, but I like the way the 993 looks and I think air-cooled engines are badass. Its more of an enthusiasts car, but its still very fast.

I've always thought of Skylines as kind of unrefined. I'm probably more of a car snob than you. An older skyline would be an amazing car to have. I don't know too much about the GT-R but I know it would turn heads as well as earn you respect from fellow car nuts for having bold taste. I just could not justify spending that much money on a new car unless I was really freaking rich.

But the best advice I could give would be to try and drive each car separately. The last time I bought a car, I spent an entire day at Carmax testing 9 different cars. I almost bought a used Civic before I found my little 1.8t Golf. Like Sir Frances Bacon said, "Life is a series of experiments, the more, the better." I don't mean that you should go try sodomy or something but I mean you should test drive as many cars as possible. I'm starting to ramble now...

A friend of mine has a 911, if you are looking for something whose acceleration will throw you in the back seat, that's the car for you.

Screw them all a BMW Z4M roadstar

Blouman! I didn't know you were a hairdresser!

Screw them all a BMW Z4M roadstar

I had a MGF convertible once. loved the car. When they and the BMW Z first came out and the Z3 had that anemic little 1.9 I4 as the only engine option the MGF could waste the Z3 despite BMW being the "upmarket" brand.

Then the Z3 got a better engine, Rover who owned MG and made the MGF decided they liked being known as the BMW killers, so supercharged their top MGF models and again wasted Z3's

They're no longer making MHF's now :( so no MG made Z4M killers these days :(

Blouman! I didn't know you were a hairdresser!

Sorry?

Screw cars, get something like this bad boy:

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5396/cinellixlr8r416vx0.jpg

I can't help feeling now that I've bothered to upload the image and copy the link that this really isn't any better than spam, but I've been drinking so I'm going to suggest it anyway, gosh darn it!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Chivtv/NS1/422px-Go_Yugo.jpg

Transmission, "like trying to shift a baseball bat stuck inside a barrel full of coconuts" is something that your mates won't be able to boast about their cars, after all!

Plus that kind of... orange..ish..ness, well, that's gotta be fast. Get that colour.

Sorry, I'll be quiet.

Sorry?

Sorry, old (British?) stereotype regarding Z3s and Z4s.

Sorry, old (British?) stereotype regarding Z3s and Z4s.

Oh OK, well I don't know what country it comes from, but wherever it is hairdressers must make a hell of a lot of money.

Why not a new BMW 1 tii?

Oh OK, well I don't know what country it comes from, but wherever it is hairdressers must make a hell of a lot of money.

Nah not really. You can pick Z3s up second-hand for less than £5k, and Z4s for less than £10k, these days. In fact pretty much all cabriolets suffer from that reputation here... particularly the Mazdas though.

Nah not really. You can pick Z3s up second-hand for less than £5k, and Z4s for less than £10k, these days. In fact pretty much all cabriolets suffer from that reputation here... particularly the Mazdas though.

What? Are yous serious? There mustn't be much tax in Britian because they are cost a damn lot of money in Australia, I am talking about brand new Z4's. And how dare you place a BMW in the same category as a Mazda.

What? Are yous serious? There mustn't be much tax in Britian because they are cost a damn lot of money in Australia, I am talking about brand new Z4's. And how dare you place a BMW in the same category as a Mazda.

I'm talking second-hand, which is how the aforementioned hair dressers afford them. And I only mentioned Mazdas because of the MX5 cabriolet, which often falls victim to the same stereotype (more so than the Beemers, actually).

I'm talking second-hand, which is how the aforementioned hair dressers afford them. And I only mentioned Mazdas because of the MX5 cabriolet, which often falls victim to the same stereotype (more so than the Beemers, actually).

I have an MX-5, but where I live there is absolutely no stereotype at all associated with them as they're rather rare. Only in the last 8 years or so has it become socially acceptable to own a foreign car (especially Japanese) in my state.

The car enthusiasts in me says you can't go wrong with the Porsche. :)

If you want to go racing take the Porsche, it will save you a lot of troubles. There's a difference between Porsche drivers and Porsche RACERS btw ;-).

I have an MX-5, but where I live there is absolutely no stereotype at all associated with them as they're rather rare. Only in the last 8 years or so has it become socially acceptable to own a foreign car (especially Japanese) in my state.

I really don't understand cars but I've been reading this thread out of masochism or something. Anyway, I've got an MX-5 but I was unaware of any reputation... I remember checking with a Jeremy Clarkson review and iirc he said he was surprised more people didn't have them. I knew I should have never listened to him...

Edit: Actually, my wife was the one who was most entusiastic about getting it and she used to be a hairdresser... I think he's on to something

I'm talking second-hand, which is how the aforementioned hair dressers afford them. And I only mentioned Mazdas because of the MX5 cabriolet, which often falls victim to the same stereotype (more so than the Beemers, actually).

Oh ok sure, but is that specifically Z3's and Z4's or is it more just second hand BMW's in general? After all I am sure that an old model 1 series would be pretty cheap as to would be a 6 series that was made back in the 90's.

After all I am sure that an old model 1 series would be pretty cheap as to would be a 6 series that was made back in the 90's.
There was no old 1-series. There was only the M1, which is certainly not cheap.

Anyways, the Z-BMWs weren't really great cars. Other than the M Coupes they were all show and comparably little go.

How about the world's only carbon-negative vehicle:

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/chiacar.jpg

ChiaCar!! :D

There was no old 1-series. There was only the M1, which is certainly not cheap.

Anyways, the Z-BMWs weren't really great cars. Other than the M Coupes they were all show and comparably little go.

Yes you are quite right the 1 series came out with the new models in 2003? Let me rephrase it then an old 3 series then?

And I did say Leon in my original post a Z4M. What would be so bad about a roadster instead?

Now I don't know how much a second hand Z4 would cost in Australia but depending on features and combination of colours and interior then it does have a good resale value. A new one costs a nice bundle, however.

Why not a new BMW 1 tii?

Only worth it if you get a 130i or maybe a 135i which I hear has or will be coming out soon but I haven't seen any stats on that yet. But then the OP is looking for something a bit more stylish and with a bit more go so a 1 series while a 130i has a decent engine doesn't have the lines the OP is looking for.

So....

Some time has passed, I learned a lot more about these cars, got the chance to drive some, and I've pretty much decided to go with the flow and get a 911. It's not all that expensive, and, while engine power leaves much to be desired (the base model only just beats the Evo), it should do. Now I'm just left pondering about the question every man asks himself around 30 - "Which 911 should I get?"
[/TG jokes]

But there's another one, mostly to Neu Leonstein, I guess, as it concerns all this market crisis and the bailout. I have own guesses on it, and I've read on it, but the opinions of people I somewhat know help a lot. So, what is going to happen to the used car market, should I expect the prices to fall, or stay the same, or by some counterintuitive mechanism rise?
Also, what would you suggest to do with investments, should I pull out what is left now, or keep it as the bailout will save things, or only keep the most stable stocks, or maybe it's the time to try some active involvement? There are a lot of differing advices on this.

This mostly matters as I don't plan on buying the car anytime soon (unless it's really the best time, which I doubt), and I have to keep what I've saved for it effectively enough.

If you have th $$$ to blow, the Porsche.

What? Are yous serious? There mustn't be much tax in Britian because they are cost a damn lot of money in Australia, I am talking about brand new Z4's. And how dare you place a BMW in the same category as a Mazda.
BTW, why not? These Japanese cars aren't slow at all; BMW is more about the luxury, while the japs are all go.


Anyway, thanks for clarifying. Yeah, the GT-R is more of a beast than I thought. Personally, I think the Elise or the Porsche would be the car to get. When I rode passenger in the Elise, I could not believe the speed that we took around corners. I was expecting to spin out at any second, but with the right tires, that thing sticks to the road like glue. Plus, Its just about the coolest looking car on ur list.
There's been a lot of debate about the GT-R... and in the end, it all divided into three camps: the "believers" taking it at face value; people thinking Nissan understates the specs by a lot to intentionally create controversy; and conspiracy theorists claiming all tested cars were specially tuned.

However, some of the points are true. Sadly, I didn't get a chance to ride in one, but even doing what Nissan so loudly suggests, playing "approved" simulators, demonstrates how this car is no fun to drive, proving what people who drove it are talking about. It just doesn't matter what you do, turn before the corner or through it, brake into the turn and pull or go smooth, roll the wheel far and correct back or carefully go in short bits, short-shift or over-rev, the end result is the same. You can just as well sit back, turn the gearbox into automatic mode (because it knows better when to shift), grab a beer, and lazily steer it with the left hand. A big step forward in getting from A to B faster, definitely a milestone in the automotive history, but not really the sports car of fun - it just compresses the time.


An older skyline would be an amazing car to have. I don't know too much about the GT-R but I know it would turn heads as well as earn you respect from fellow car nuts for having bold taste. I just could not justify spending that much money on a new car unless I was really freaking rich.

Well, I'm not freaking rich... What I've been counting on is selling it afterwards for a close price if not for profit. But with the market drop it seems unlikely.


If you have th $$$ to blow, the Porsche.
Not that I have the money to blow, not $$$$$$ it costs. OK, I have, but just $$$$$, and don't feel all that blow-ish right now. But I've got the middle age crisis coming - I know everyone gets it and there's no escape, so I thought - why not ride through it with wind in the hair? And it's not such a bad thing, because if not for it, who would need all these sports cars apart from rich kids. Well, really, I just started to love the Porsches, but honestly I'm still a bit out of my league with what I'm aiming for. Realistically I'm supposed to have the entry Boxster/Cayman and that's it, but you can never get enough of Porsche.
Still, I just feel too much for it now, so I'm going to get over my inner greed and buy something really good once. These cars are not as far above my league as I used to believe until a few months ago, and they're way better than I used to think of them. Really worth it, I think.

I'd go for a bicycle. It's cheaper and will keep you fit. That or the Porsche

BTW, why not? These Japanese cars aren't slow at all; BMW is more about the luxury, while the japs are all go.

Well there you go, you can't compare them if one is all about luxury and the other is all about go. Though I dispute that the BMW has luxury, though a Z4 does not have the same amount of luxury as say a 525, but the Z4 still has a lot of go. If we are going to compare car for car than I suppose you would go with the RX-8 with the Z4, The engine of the RX-8 is 170kw compared to the Z4 which has 195kw. Now while the Mazda RX-8 may be comparable to the Z4 though the Z4 wins hands down, overall you just can't compare the models of BMW to the models of Mazda as a whole.

BTW, I think you have made a good choice, but as you say which variant?

Well there you go, you can't compare them if one is all about luxury and the other is all about go. Though I dispute that the BMW has luxury, though a Z4 does not have the same amount of luxury as say a 525, but the Z4 still has a lot of go. If we are going to compare car for car than I suppose you would go with the RX-8 with the Z4, The engine of the RX-8 is 170kw compared to the Z4 which has 195kw. Now while the Mazda RX-8 may be comparable to the Z4 though the Z4 wins hands down,
And still the Mazda wins over all but the [way expensive] top-end Z4M. True, the sport variants of BMW do have the go, unlike some others (overweight Mercs, muscle buses, etc), but way less than one expects from the looks and the price.

That's why they're called "show, not go", because their performance is put second to other factors. The top-end Z4 costs more than even heavily factory-tuned Evos (which are the archnemesis of mid-range Ferrari owners), and as much as the sub-911 Porsches, but offers neither the performance of Evo, nor a match in any factor at all to Boxster or Cayman.



BTW, I think you have made a good choice, but as you say which variant?
There's 30 of them - I mean, thirty roughly modern 911 models to consider (overall much more). All are called 911, but really it's a lot of different though related cars under similar bodies.

I'm looking preferably for convertible variants, but even that narrows the choice down just to 12 models.

And still the Mazda wins over all but the [way expensive] top-end Z4M. True, the sport variants of BMW do have the go, unlike some others (overweight Mercs, muscle buses, etc), but way less than one expects from the looks and the price.

That's why they're called "show, not go", because their performance is put second to other factors. The top-end Z4 costs more than even heavily factory-tuned Evos (which are the archnemesis of mid-range Ferrari owners), and as much as the sub-911 Porsches, but offers neither the performance of Evo, nor a match in any factor at all to Boxster or Cayman.

Are you really going to say that all Mazdas win over all BMW except for the Z4M? I would agree with you and say the BMW does also place other factors high on the list which is why I think overall they are a better car.

There's 30 of them - I mean, thirty roughly modern 911 models to consider (overall much more). All are called 911, but really it's a lot of different though related cars under similar bodies.

I'm looking preferably for convertible variants, but even that narrows the choice down just to 12 models.

Oh I know I was looking at the models the other day, personally I would be looking at either the 911 Carrera 4S Cabriolet or the 911 Turbo Cabriolet. If you are looking for a convertiable. But let me know which one you decide on, will you?