NationStates Jolt Archive

So I was watching American Gangster (excellent film by the way) and one line kind of stuck out at me saying that crime is never going to go away because it employs to many people. Do you agree with this?

I kind of do. I mean a crime free world would be a good thing but then without crime there wouldn't be a need for judges, lawyers, prison guards, police officers, probation officers and a lot more.

So is crime a necessary thing?

yes inefficiency either through crime or just general rule breaking is a pretty big part of what human sociaty is and without it the world becomes rather shite really

i dont know about necessary but it seems unavoidable.

im thinking that its like nuns and sin. nuns dont do the big sins but they end up obsessing over the tiny sins--"oh i was abrupt with sister theresa today"

so if humanity gave up murder and armed robbery we would end up giving life in prison for joy riding and underage sex.

I've never thought of it that way before...

Crime is not necessary, but it's not leaving any time soon.

I think we all agree that a crime free world is a Utopia.
Well, most of us would anyway.

But it seems to be like unemployment and diseases,
in that you have to have some % of it,
in order to get the other % to function in an "Optimal" way.

You could probably list a host of other things with an "exception that affirms the rule".

I think we all agree that a crime free world is a Utopia.
Well, most of us would anyway.Not really. A fascist dictatorship without crime is still a fascist dictatorship, and not suddenly a utopia.
I imagine some situations may well be improved by, at least some types of, crime; depending on who forbids what.

I mean a crime free world would be a good thing but then without crime there wouldn't be a need for judges, lawyers, prison guards, police officers, probation officers and a lot more.

Unless you could 100% guarantee that there would never be any crime ever again you'd still need those people. Less of them, perhaps.

Unless you could 100% guarantee that there would never be any crime ever again you'd still need those people. Less of them, perhaps.

100% guarantee...

100% guarantee...

Like a 50% guarantee, but twice as good.

Like a 50% guarantee, but twice as good.

It's genius!

*copyrights*

So is crime a necessary thing?No. Not even for judges, lawyers, and police officers. These serve other functions that are independent of criminial activity.

But, as has been pointed out, it's largely unavoidable.

The phrase "Crime is never going to go away because it employs to many people" doesn't indicate that crime is necessary, but instead, a natural result of the society we live in. Also, he may not have been refering to the police, judges and government, but instead to all the people that make money selling drugs, and profiting off of other illegal activities.
It could also be interpreted to mean that pay offs to politicians keep said politicians from actually fighting crime.

But those are just my two cents =P :headbang:

only to the degree that society's misplaced priorities have allowed it to become tyrannical.

for the most part i would say entirely the opposite, that the counter bennificialness, harmfulness, is the only moral and logical reason to MAKE anything a crime to begin with.

yet even the most well meaning of cultures, perhapse even the most astute, if any can be said to even remotely approach that, are not immune to becoming infested with laws that are themselves immoral in the only real sense of moral considerations, that being the causing of suffering and real harm.

no. no one bennifits from myopic thoughtlessness. a culture that romantacizes and rewards it motivates tyranny, which is why the dominant culture, the economics driven culture of today's super powers, decends into ever greater tyranny.

a dominant culture of thoughtlessness is what motivates tyranny in the first place.

=^^=
.../\...

It's necessary for capitalist society, if that's what you mean.

A crime-free world would certainly be good.
The means through which it is created matter, however. No crime because of fear of extremely severe punishment (dictatorship) is entirely different than no crime because of no compulsion to do it (utopia). The former is not always worth it (though it may - depends on the definition of crime and the mindset of the people involved).

It's necessary for capitalist society, if that's what you mean.Because communist societies aren't inherently corrupt, no?

Because communist societies aren't inherently corrupt, no?

Capitalism encourages crime. Capitalism is a decaying edifice which degenerates society and pits man against man in an endless race to the bottom. Capitalism creates prostitution, sexual degradation, drug dealing and all manner of scum in society.

So I was watching American Gangster (excellent film by the way) and one line kind of stuck out at me saying that crime is never going to go away because it employs to many people. Do you agree with this?

I kind of do. I mean a crime free world would be a good thing but then without crime there wouldn't be a need for judges, lawyers, prison guards, police officers, probation officers and a lot more.

So is crime a necessary thing?

It's not necessary, as it does not contribute anything of value to society.
If there was no crime, people working in law enforcement would be doing something else. To claim crime as necessary because society has to spend millions to employ people who fight it is equal to claiming that fires are necessary, cause it keeps firemen employed.

It's unecessary, definitely. But it's just human nature.

Capitalism encourages crime. Capitalism is a decaying edifice which degenerates society and pits man against man in an endless race to the bottom. Capitalism creates prostitution, sexual degradation, drug dealing and all manner of scum in society.

*lol
You're funny.
If capitalism is corrupt and degenerate, and people not living in capitalism aren't, then how did they become corrupt in the first place? After all, people never "invented" capitalism. It was a social development.

So is crime a necessary thing?

No. Of course, if there were no antisocial behaviours, there would be lesser social costs (no judges, no jails, no police).

It is possible to create a crime-less society? I don't think so. Take "antisociality" as a distribution over the set of the people: as the people are a set large enough to become a statistical ensemble, there will be always some people who are antisocial enough (one of the distribution's tails) to cross the border that separates socially/legally-acceptable behaviour from socially/legally-unacceptable behaviour, that is crime.
Of course, there would be the trivial solution of abolishing crime altogether (by deciding that there is no border that, once crossed, defines a behaviour as criminal: that is abolishing law), but that would be unpractical to keep a large society alive and working, as we can guess from many historical examples.

*lol
You're funny.
If capitalism is corrupt and degenerate, and people not living in capitalism aren't, then how did they become corrupt in the first place? After all, people never "invented" capitalism. It was a social development.

Capitalism is a decaying system, it has outlasted it's own development and is now aggressively reacting and defending itself from it's inevitable decay. So it is also decaying social relations as it goes down.

Capitalism encourages crime. Capitalism is a decaying edifice which degenerates society and pits man against man in an endless race to the bottom. Capitalism creates prostitution, sexual degradation, drug dealing and all manner of scum in society.

ANY society "creates" crime, as long as some behaviours are defined as crime - which (see my previous post) is needed to keep a society working.
Of course capitalism, being more individual-orientered, somehow encourages some antisocial behaviours - I would point out illegal workers' exploitation as a typical "capitalist" antisocial behaviour that often crosses the border with crime.
Anyway, in a paradoxal way, even the harsh behaviour limits that many socialist/communist states have implemented create crime: also as a reaction to excessive collectivism and goodthink. And, of course, history tells us that there was prostitution, drug trafficking, smuggling, bribery, theft in many socialist/communist states.
Antisociality is a typical HUMAN behaviour: as long as humans exist and live in societies, there will be crime.

And, of course, history tells us that there was prostitution, drug trafficking, smuggling, bribery, theft in many socialist/communist states.societies, there will be crime.
The crime in socialist society is merely the remnant of capitalism, and as socialism moves forward it is eventually completely abolished.

Social relations and ills are caused by economic environment, human 'nature' is infinetely malleable to economic manipulation, which is why capitalism breeds divisision, injustice, social and sexual decay, scum-ish activities, and why socialism breeds a more united and communal society.

Also of course recidivist political criminals, social scum etc will also need to be reeducated to the norms of socialist society.

Capitalism is a decaying system, it has outlasted it's own development and is now aggressively reacting and defending itself from it's inevitable decay. So it is also decaying social relations as it goes down.

I've no doubt that capitalism evolved, and is still evolving.
However, as a system it caters very much to human nature, while socialism/communism is an ideological construct based on how humas SHOULD be rather than on how they actually ARE.
Social relations are not decaying any more than they have, say 500 years ago.

I think were socio-economical systems are concerned, you're very much a creationist, aren't you? ;)

The crime in socialist society is merely the remnant of capitalism, and as socialism moves forward it is eventually completely abolished.

Social relations and ills are caused by economic environment, human 'nature' is infinetely malleable to economic manipulation, which is why capitalism breeds divisision, injustice, social and sexual decay, scum-ish activities, and why socialism breeds a more united and communal society.

Also of course recidivist political criminals, social scum etc will also need to be reeducated to the norms of socialist society.

Crime is not capitalist nor communist. It's individuals not violating the rights of other individuals. No amount of education is EVER going to eradicate that.

Social relations are not decaying any more than they have, say 500 years ago.

LOL, makes me laugh when capitalists deny the existance of the lumpenproletariat, the lumpenproletariat itself was only a tiny fringe element in Marx's day, these days it's everywhere, encompassing crime, unemployment and all manner of scum-ish social ills.

Capitalism is decaying at a very rapid rate indeed.

LOL, makes me laugh when capitalists deny the existance of the lumpenproletariat, the lumpenproletariat itself was only a tiny fringe element in Marx's day, these days it's everywhere, encompassing crime, unemployment and all manner of scum-ish social ills.

Capitalism is decaying at a very rapid rate indeed.

Well, in that case you've got a bright future to look forward to, don't you?

I'm just wondering, if criminal are so much on the rise, what are you going to do with them in socialism?
Re-educate millions? Where will you find enough teachers?

Well, in that case you've got a bright future to look forward to, don't you?

I'm just wondering, if criminal are so much on the rise, what are you going to do with them in socialism?
Re-educate millions? Where will you find enough teachers?

He'll have them sent to death camps and call it "re-education through the dialectal instruction of the supremacy of the communist way in purging bourgeoisie tendencies by means of cranial reconstruction"

I've never thought of it in this way but when you think of it crime is an integral part of society. Without itm a huge number of jobs will be lost that and living in a crime free world would just seem rather dull in a strange way.

Not really. A fascist dictatorship without crime is still a fascist dictatorship, and not suddenly a utopia.
I imagine some situations may well be improved by, at least some types of, crime; depending on who forbids what.

Indeed. My mistake.
Even though some would see that as a utopia, I would not.
The only time when we would be absolutely free from crime,
is when total anarchy rules, and there are no laws to tell crime apart.

I have to agree somewhat with AP tough,
in that capitalism breeds greed that breeds corruption/crime.
Since people are selfish and impatient,
that system allows them to cut corners and amass wealth through "unethical" means.
And the more money they have, the more corners they can safely cut.

I've never thought of it in this way but when you think of it crime is an integral part of society. Without it a huge number of jobs will be lost that and living in a crime free world would just seem rather dull in a strange way.

I personally can't believe that anyone could think crime is necessary- maybe for enjoyment, certainly a lot of people like to watch "Cops", but as a whole it is not necessary. The "jobs" you speak of are just as much a drain on the economy as the crime it punishes. Being a judge or cop or trial attorney doesn't produce a valuable good if the criminal is non-existent. Of course if crime suddenly stopped and all such people were laid of there might be some structural unemployment, but even that wouldn't actually hurt the economy because we had just cut out a tremendous amount of inefficiency- it would in fact help the economy tremendously. Eventually those people will be retrained and start doing another job, at which point the economy would be doing even better.

Indeed. My mistake.
Even though some would see that as a utopia, I would not.
The only time when we would be absolutely free from crime,
is when total anarchy rules, and there are no laws to tell crime apart.

I have to agree somewhat with AP tough,
in that capitalism breeds greed that breeds corruption/crime.
Since people are selfish and impatient,
that system allows them to cut corners and amass wealth through "unethical" means.
And the more money they have, the more corners they can safely cut.

I think you're confusing a mind set with an economic system. I don't see how capitalism "breeds greed"- it allows people to make money, but that doesn't mean that the capacity to make money made them greedy.