NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, so I was on the "Hitler" thread, and I just thought of something. Concentration camps like Auschwitz, and others have been turned into museums and tourist attractions. Am I the only one who think this is morbidly sick? I mean, I know that we learn from the past so we don't repeat it, and I know we can't cover it up. But at the same time, to have a place where millions of people died in the most horrible manner turned into a museum and tourist attraction...it just seems kinda sick to me.

Your thoughts?

Agreed. Sometimes learning experiences turn distasteful, sometimes too clinical (although I doubt that a visitor to Auschwitz would be clinical).

If it was set up as a tourist trap with the goal of making money, then yes, I could see how that would be sick. But seeing as it is primarily an education tool, no I don't think it's morbid.

I thought of them more as memorials and museums of history than tourist spots, I suppose. I mean, they don't sell "I went to Auschwitz and all I got was this lousy tattoo" shirts, do they?

There is one here, for the OKC bombing. I haven't been and I don't see any-one's fascination with it. I was there the day of, about 30 minutes after the bomb went off, I don't need to remember, or see pictures, or touch the rubble that was left, or see the 168 empty chairs or hear the recording of the bomb going off. I don't understand what would draw someone to that place.

People go though, nearly everyday of the year, they travel here and do it on their vacations. I don't understand. I truly don't. I don't understand what kind of morbid curiousity leads you to "need" or want to see the picture again of the baby dead and bloody in the fireman's arms. I am saddened for her mother, having to see that every freaking year, and actually more often. Those idiots with T-shirts of it.......I loathe them.


.........I think I need to go to sleep now.

I have to go downtown tomorrow, I have to drive by it. I don't want to go.

:(

It is a place where history happened. Violent, brutal, savage history, yet history none the less. A history that should never be forgotten

Some things can't just be learned from books.

It is a place where history happened. Violent, brutal, savage history, yet history none the less. A history that should never be forgotten

Some things can't just be learned from books.

I agree, but can you honestly be somewhere where something like that happened?

I honestly could not. I've never been to these camps, but I doubt I'd be able to stomach the fact that something so horrible, so disgusting happened.

It would be sick if it were designed to be fun or exciting, or if they sold kitschy Auschwitz merchandise or something. I have never visited the concentration camps, but from what I hear from folks who have, it is nothing of the sort, and no more sick than a graveyard or a battlefield, other places people go to remember and mourn.

Ok, so I was on the "Hitler" thread, and I just thought of something. Concentration camps like Auschwitz, and others have been turned into museums and tourist attractions. Am I the only one who think this is morbidly sick? I mean, I know that we learn from the past so we don't repeat it, and I know we can't cover it up. But at the same time, to have a place where millions of people died in the most horrible manner turned into a museum and tourist attraction...it just seems kinda sick to me.

Your thoughts?

Arlington Cemetery.

Arlington Cemetery.

and....

and....

Yes?

I agree, but can you honestly be somewhere where something like that happened?

I honestly could not. I've never been to these camps, but I doubt I'd be able to stomach the fact that something so horrible, so disgusting happened.

Well, that's kinda the point - to drive home the horror of the Holocaust, to make it real in a way that simply reading about it can't, to burn the images into our brains so that we never forget and let things like that happen again if we can help it. Again, people don't go to the concentration camps because it's fun - they go because deaths deserve remembrance. I strongly suspect visiting such a place would leave me sobbing, vomiting, or both - but I'd still probably go if I ever got the chance.

Well, that's kinda the point - to drive home the horror of the Holocaust, to make it real in a way that simply reading about it can't, to burn the images into our brains so that we never forget and let things like that happen again if we can help it. Again, people don't go to the concentration camps because it's fun - they go because deaths deserve remembrance. I strongly suspect visiting such a place would leave me sobbing, vomiting, or both - but I'd still probably go if I ever got the chance.

I went to Dachau when I was in Munich, at 18. It's a very educational experience, and one that does make you think a LOT about what man can do to itself, but not a particularly harrowing one: There are pictures, we do go to the concentration camp, and so on, but it's not like they show us any torture implements or gas chambers. I don't think you'd vomit. The "sobbing" part... Well... Some places evoke sorrow. But it's not a "tourist trap" thing either. It's just a place in which horrid history happened. I don't think it's about "driving home the point", mind you - if you're there, the point is pretty much driven home by itself. And, to turn a phrase, it's the worst good point one could ever drive home.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8768378&postcount=9

...it just seems kinda sick to me.

Understandable...but it would be sicker still if we stopped letting people see and more fully understand this dark slice of history for themselves.

Arlington Cemetery.

ANZAC Cove, Gallipoli, Turkey.

I agree, but can you honestly be somewhere where something like that happened?

I honestly could not. I've never been to these camps, but I doubt I'd be able to stomach the fact that something so horrible, so disgusting happened.

I've been, as most Germans would have been. It's a school trip that the schools have to offer (nobody's forced to go, mind, but every school has to organise that trip, usually in 9th grade).

Have you ever visited the battle fields in Eastern France? It's a lot like that...
We've been to Dachau, which is basically a visitor center with some photographs and documentaries about the political background, as well as the daily life in the camp.
The camp itself is two reconstructed barracks, and the rest of the barracks outlined on the ground.
It's in no way tasteless, or overly emotional. It's not somewhere people would go for a melodramatic kick. It's a very quiet place, like a big cemetary.

I think I saw a documentary thing about this some time ago, one of the actual suggestions was to demolish Auschwitz entirely and on top of it make a massive cemetery with 1,700,000 crosses, as that would allow people to properly understand and comprehend the sheer scale of the slaughter that occurred.

Ok, so I was on the "Hitler" thread, and I just thought of something. Concentration camps like Auschwitz, and others have been turned into museums and tourist attractions. Am I the only one who think this is morbidly sick? I mean, I know that we learn from the past so we don't repeat it, and I know we can't cover it up. But at the same time, to have a place where millions of people died in the most horrible manner turned into a museum and tourist attraction...it just seems kinda sick to me.
I can see where you're coming from, but...
I thought of them more as memorials and museums of history than tourist spots, I suppose. I mean, they don't sell "I went to Auschwitz and all I got was this lousy tattoo" shirts, do they?
It is a place where history happened. Violent, brutal, savage history, yet history none the less. A history that should never be forgotten
This is why I have no problem with the sites being open to the public as a form of memorial. It's the same sort of reason that the site of the WTC will remain as a memorial, and that there are battleground memorials and commemorative areas dedicated to all sorts of unpleasant things all over the world.
can you honestly be somewhere where something like that happened?
Like Heikoku, I visited Dachau when I was in Bavaria a few years ago. It was a soberng experience that, despite the fact that I was intellectually aware of what had taken place there anyway, somehow reinforced my knowledge. It's sort of hard to explain , but I consider it to have been a valuable use of my time. I also visited the International Slavery Museum in Liverpool earlier this year and learned some more minutiae about the transatlantic slave trade and, although I'd been aware of most of it before I went, I still found it of value.

In short, I think that museums and memorials of this nature are a good thing overall.

Ok, so I was on the "Hitler" thread, and I just thought of something. Concentration camps like Auschwitz, and others have been turned into museums and tourist attractions. Am I the only one who think this is morbidly sick? I mean, I know that we learn from the past so we don't repeat it, and I know we can't cover it up. But at the same time, to have a place where millions of people died in the most horrible manner turned into a museum and tourist attraction...it just seems kinda sick to me.

Your thoughts?I take it you've never been to any of them then.

They attract tourists, sure, but it's hardly for entertainment.

Certainly more reverent than people standing around gawking at and taking pictures at the former hole in the ground called Ground Zero.

I don't think there's anything terrible about showing what, in a respectful way, happened in the camps. If they put up neons lights and started selling emaciated survivor dolls or imitation human lamp shades, that would be a different story and there would be a huge hue and cry (and rightfully so!). Pictures, and showing the barracks, and having a docent explain what happened where... no.

You don't have to go if you find it upsetting -- but for many it's a place to make peace with those they lost, and to contemplate man's inhumanity to man. Hopefully it serves as something of a reminder....

*looks at the Sudan and sighs*

I've been to Dachau and Auschwitz to see them, and neither place struck me as remotely disrespectful in their presentation. Nor did they appear to be tourist traps of any sort.

I see nothing wrong with the way they've preserved them or present them to visitors.

I've been to Dachau and Auschwitz to see them, and neither place struck me as remotely disrespectful in their presentation. Nor did they appear to be tourist traps of any sort.

I see nothing wrong with the way they've preserved them or present them to visitors.

I can't believe we're agreeing.

massive cemetery with 1,700,000 crosses

Surely mostly Stars of David, right? I'm sure they'd put a number of crosses up for those who weren't Jews that were killed there, but it was mostly Jews wasn't it?

Ok, so I was on the "Hitler" thread, and I just thought of something. Concentration camps like Auschwitz, and others have been turned into museums and tourist attractions. Am I the only one who think this is morbidly sick? I mean, I know that we learn from the past so we don't repeat it, and I know we can't cover it up. But at the same time, to have a place where millions of people died in the most horrible manner turned into a museum and tourist attraction...it just seems kinda sick to me.

Your thoughts?

I don't see why it iwould be morbid or sick... it's not like people go there to have some hotdogs and a jolly good time... they are museums and memorial places, not theme parks. Having been to Terezin myself, I don't think you can grasp the scale and horrible efficiency of these places without having been there...

I can't believe we're agreeing.

Why not?

I think you misperceive me. I am someone who believes that, in a world where most people believe "as long as it's legal, it's morally OK to do", that I can do anything I like within the limits of the law.

That includes killing people in combat when I was younger (just because I wanted to), or the fact that my wife and I are swingers, or that I make a lot of money to support my having as much fun as I like, etc.

Despite this, I do have a basic moral compass - it's just that I enjoy the hell out of fucking with the people who are in the "as long as it's legal, it's morally ok to do" boat.

If I can have fun at their expense, I will certainly do it. Not maybe - I will do it.

While I'm not advocating a religious subtext for government, I do believe that this is the central problem of Western civilization - and why we ended up with things like the Holocaust - it was locally legal (within the National Socialist government) so it was OK to do - and unthinkable not to do it.

I can't believe we're agreeing.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. :D

I think that the best way to deal with those things would be to simply demolish all of them and rebuild the whole area so that nobody would be reminded of what was there.
In my opinion, taking kids into the "museum" camps to show them the cells, the execution "bathrooms", the furnaces, etc. to tell them once again of the horrible things that transpired there (even though they probably heard about them a million times at school) is an incredibly stupid idea. Do you really think that kids need any more of this? Those that are sensitive enough got it the first (or probably second, third, tenth, etc.) time you told them. Those that are not will not get it even when you show them the remains (they probably will when they grow up though).
I remember a school trip when I was in high school into one of them (can't remember which one exactly). It did not change my views in any way. It did not influence me one bit. I just felt very uncomfortable in there because I didn't know how (I was expected) to react. I didn't want to go there but it was compulsory so I had no choice. Oh and I also remember making an inappropriate joke after we got out (to ease the mood a little) and being told (by my classmates) that I was disgusting. Not really a great experience.
Furthermore it can be a really terrible experience for those that are more sensitive and don't know how to "shut it out" yet.

I think that the best way to deal with those things would be to simply demolish all of them and rebuild the whole area so that nobody would be reminded of what was there.
In my opinion, taking kids into the "museum" camps to show them the cells, the execution "bathrooms", the furnaces, etc. to tell them once again of the horrible things that transpired there (even though they probably heard about them a million times at school) is an incredibly stupid idea. Do you really think that kids need any more of this? Those that are sensitive enough got it the first (or probably second, third, tenth, etc.) time you told them. Those that are not will not get it even when you show them the remains (they probably will when they grow up though).
I remember a school trip when I was in high school into one of them (can't remember which one exactly). It did not change my views in any way. It did not influence me one bit. I just felt very uncomfortable in there because I didn't know how (I was expected) to react. I didn't want to go there but it was compulsory so I had no choice. Oh and I also remember making an inappropriate joke after we got out (to ease the mood a little) and being told (by my classmates) that I was disgusting. Not really a great experience.
Furthermore it can be a really terrible experience for those that are more sensitive and don't know how to "shut it out" yet.

You do realise that there are quite a number of survivors of those camps, and that for many of them being able to return is a way of coming to terms with what happened?
And for the friends and relatives of those who died there, it's a memorial. It's not as if they could come to the graves of the people they lost, after all.

They should not be erased, in the same way that you would not erase a cemetary.
I agree that nobody should be forced to go there, and I find it hard to believe that your school forced you. When my class went there, two girls opted out as they said they weren't sure if they could handle it, and it was not problem whatsoever.

As for that joke ... well, at least now you know it's not a good idea to try and be funny at the wrong time. At least it has taught you something, then.

It's no different than going to Bunker Hill, the Common to see where the Boston Massacre happened, the bridge at Lexington and Concord, Gettysburg, Arlington, Normandy, Cambodia, Rwanda, Russia, and a huge number of other sites worldwide.

The point of these sites is to show history. A significant event occured there. IIRC, the money, if even a requirement (many ask for donations) goes to preserving the site (esp. true in the concentration camps, where much of the construction is wood)



edit: I still can't read.

Why? The importance of these buildings isn't that Jews died there, but that 1,700,000 died within the walls. The fact that they were Jews or Roma or disabled et. al. was much of the reason, but not the important fact (They are teaching mans inhumanity to man, not mans inhumanity to Jews)

True. However, a vast number of those who died there were Jews, and I'm not altogether so sure how respectfull it would be to mark their deaths with crosses...

I haven't been to any of the concentration camps, although I want to.

What I have been to is the exhibit at the Imperial War Museum in London, so what I say is based on that.

Yes, I had studied it before, in history. It's important to know. But the thing which really got me at the War Museum was a scale model of Auschwitz. Little 1/72 figures, and it was at least 40 square feet, probably a lot more. And that was under 1/20th of the camp. It really brought home the scale of it in a way numbers or statistics don't.

A lot of the rest of it was very interesting and very affecting. Stories of people, various exhibits, etc. But the thing that blew me away was the sheer scale of it.

Anyway, I do think they should be open. Remembering the dead and the horror is a good thing, and a solid exhibit (or, I presume, a visit to the actual camps) brings it home to you in a way that no list of figures on the page ever can.

Ok, so I was on the "Hitler" thread, and I just thought of something. Concentration camps like Auschwitz, and others have been turned into museums and tourist attractions. Am I the only one who think this is morbidly sick? I mean, I know that we learn from the past so we don't repeat it, and I know we can't cover it up. But at the same time, to have a place where millions of people died in the most horrible manner turned into a museum and tourist attraction...it just seems kinda sick to me.

Your thoughts?
When I was studying in Bavaria, we were taken to visit Dachau (just outside of Munich). Students in Germany are all recommended to go visit the camps. There were a few things that stand out in my mind from the trip.

1. How ridiculously close the Dachau KZ is from Munich proper......Dachau is literally a suburb of Munich......:(

2. I had the most awkward feeling when I was on the train from Munich to Dachau and I felt like..."this is the exact same train trip many people were forced to take to this camp"...then I was looking out on the train tracks and I saw much older discarded train cars, rusting away on the side of the track and I couldn't help but wonder.....

3. The place was different than I had expected. Indeed when I had learned about the holocaust in school or even in my own time researching it, it was mostly about the death camps in Eastern Europe, of which Dachau was not really part of. It was more of a labor/holding camp. True, in the far back, isolated, it does have a gas chamber and human-oven, but that was more to "test" out and then to employ in the eastern camps. Truth be told, due to learning about the horrors of the east, I was expecting far worse. It was quite, deathly quite, and a very good history lesson, but I felt more..."uncomfterable" on the train on the way to Dachau than I did at Dachau. Though I will admit that standing in the gas chamber did chill me a bit. I suppose that's more of the kind of feeling you'd have at Auschwitz or the Eastern camps. I think it will be a good experience to visit Auschwitz one day, problem is I'm never in Poland.

4. All in all, a very good experience for those wishing to learn more about it, or simply visit a very important sight in history. Even more important for those who doubt the holocaust happend. I just don't see how one could doubt it after visiting it.

I think I saw a documentary thing about this some time ago, one of the actual suggestions was to demolish Auschwitz entirely and on top of it make a massive cemetery with 1,700,000 crosses, as that would allow people to properly understand and comprehend the sheer scale of the slaughter that occurred.
That's the 3rd stupidest thing I've heard all day. The first two things you already stated in my SA thread.:rolleyes:

You do realise that there are quite a number of survivors of those camps, and that for many of them being able to return is a way of coming to terms with what happened?
And for the friends and relatives of those who died there, it's a memorial. It's not as if they could come to the graves of the people they lost, after all.
I don't really think coming back is a good way to come to terms with what happened. I certainly wouldn't return to where the worst harm was done to me. Besides people get harmed all the time in many different places and nobody preserves most of them. Why should this be any different? Because how many suffered there? And what about those people that reside nearby or have to go past it to get to work/shop/whatever?

They should not be erased, in the same way that you would not erase a cemetary.
Erm... Well... I wouldn't mind if there were no cemeteries. But I understand that some people just have to have something to remember their deceased loved ones by. So cemeteries, why not (there's no suffering to be associated with that). But just as people that die at home don't get their cross put in the living room so shouldn't those that die in concentration camps automatically get the right to have a memorial cross put in the place they died. Put their crosses in graveyards if their relatives want them (and finance them - just like everybody else).

I agree that nobody should be forced to go there, and I find it hard to believe that your school forced you. When my class went there, two girls opted out as they said they weren't sure if they could handle it, and it was not problem whatsoever.
I don't remember exactly. Maybe we were told that it's either the camp or school in a different class so I naturally wanted to go but changed my mind when we actually got there and I saw the exterior and the catchy "Arbeit macht frei" phrase in rusted metal above the fortified main gate. I just know I had to go at one point or another.

As for that joke ... well, at least now you know it's not a good idea to try and be funny at the wrong time. At least it has taught you something, then.
I didn't do it to be funny. I wanted to ease the dark mood that's been all around. I wouldn't mind doing it again (possibly with a more fitting joke). It's always better to be happy than sad.
It didn't teach me anything besides to stay out of concentration camps the next time because they're no fun at all.

Oh and I also remember making an inappropriate joke after we got out (to ease the mood a little) and being told (by my classmates) that I was disgusting.

Please tell me it wasn't the "how many Jews can fit in a volkswagon" joke.

1. How ridiculously close the Dachau KZ is from Munich proper......Dachau is literally a suburb of Munich......:(

Even during WWII, it was literally a suburb.

What boggles my mind is that locals had the audacity to say that they had no idea what was going on in the camp.

I was stationed (in the 1980s) on a missile base near Stuttgart. Everyone in town knew what we were doing, and many business owners seemed to know when we were going to go on alert before most soldiers on the base knew.

It was complete bullshit that they said that they didn't know.

It didn't teach me anything besides to stay out of concentration camps the next time because they're no fun at all.
Oh grow up. Seriously how old are you? Not very old if you think the concentration camp visits are supposed to be fun. Not everything is about what's fun and funny, but about what is right and important.....

Even during WWII, it was literally a suburb.

What boggles my mind is that locals had the audacity to say that they had no idea what was going on in the camp.

I was stationed (in the 1980s) on a missile base near Stuttgart. Everyone in town knew what we were doing, and many business owners seemed to know when we were going to go on alert before most soldiers on the base knew.

It was complete bullshit that they said that they didn't know.
Indeed, though I don't blame the common German. Even if they did know, they were living under an extreme authoritarian police state that would have landed them in there should they have said anything about it....it's sad and unfortunate, but there was not much they could do under those conditions.

When I studying there, after my visit to Dachau I came back to my village and was in the local bar having a beer with a few locals I made friends with. They told me straight up "now that you've visited please don't think too badly of us. We didn't want this to happen and we are not the same people anymore"....and then alot of them felt they needed to explain that their families were not part of it...whether they were farmers or whatever.

It was an interesting experience nonetheless.

"I went to Auschwitz and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."

Please tell me it wasn't the "how many Jews can fit in a volkswagon" joke.
No. It was a joke response to a question (don't remember it though). Something about things made from hair. (We learned in the camp that some things, clothes I think, were actually made from the hair of the deceased prisoners - or something like that)

True. However, a vast number of those who died there were Jews, and I'm not altogether so sure how respectfull it would be to mark their deaths with crosses...
haha...yeah...I'm having reading issues for some reason and missed the whole thing about "crosses"...

*needs a nap*
"I went to Auschwitz and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."

Joke was already made.

Oh grow up. Seriously how old are you? Not very old if you think the concentration camp visits are supposed to be fun. Not everything is about what's fun and funny, but about what is right and important.....

No, I don't think they're supposed to be fun. I didn't think in those days either.
I just know now that when you get some free time you should have fun and not get all depressed by visits to concentration camps. Life should be as much fun as possible!
Right and important? Nobody knows exactly what is "right"! And only the joys of life are really important! Away with the tragedies!

Also, these aren't tourist traps...that is something along the lines of "Worlds Largest Ball of Twine! Only five miles deeper into the middle of no where!"
[QUOTE]I don't really think coming back is a good way to come to terms with what happened. I certainly wouldn't return to where the worst harm was done to me. Besides people get harmed all the time in many different places and nobody preserves most of them. Why should this be any different? Because how many suffered there? And what about those people that reside nearby or have to go past it to get to work/shop/whatever?
For you it might not be right. For them, or even some of them, it may be. That isn't your call.
And generally, people are not systematically forced to work, then executed when they are no longer of value to the state.
If someone nearby has such an issue that they cannot walk or drive past these places, it might be a good idea to have moved in the last 50 years. These areas are more important than their stupid hang-ups.

Erm... Well... I wouldn't mind if there were no cemeteries. But I understand that some people just have to have something to remember their deceased loved ones by. So cemeteries, why not (there's no suffering to be associated with that). But just as people that die at home don't get their cross put in the living room so shouldn't those that die in concentration camps automatically get the right to have a memorial cross put in the place they died. Put their crosses in graveyards if their relatives want them (and finance them - just like everybody else).

Except most of the bodies were never, and likely can never be identified. These are their cemetaries.


I don't remember exactly. Maybe we were told that it's either the camp or school in a different class so I naturally wanted to go but changed my mind when we actually got there and I saw the exterior and the catchy "Arbeit macht frei" phrase in rusted metal above the fortified main gate. I just know I had to go at one point or another.Yeah...Arbeit macht frei is real catchy. Untill you know that 1,700,000 people were executed.


I didn't do it to be funny. I wanted to ease the dark mood that's been all around. I wouldn't mind doing it again (possibly with a more fitting joke). It's always better to be happy than sad.
It didn't teach me anything besides to stay out of concentration camps the next time because they're no fun at all.

Some things aren't supposed to be funny or made humorous. Many things are supposed to be somber moments, and should be appropriatly respected.

No, I don't think they're supposed to be fun. I didn't think in those days either.
I just know now that when you get some free time you should have fun and not get all depressed by visits to concentration camps. Life should be as much fun as possible!
Right and important? Nobody knows exactly what is "right"! And only the joys of life are really important! Away with the tragedies!
I'm sorry but this is gonna come out one way or another.

God, people like you annoy the shit out of me.

What.....? What, NSG? You all were thinking it, I just said it!

Indeed, though I don't blame the common German. Even if they did know, they were living under an extreme authoritarian police state that would have landed them in there should they have said anything about it....it's sad and unfortunate, but there was not much they could do under those conditions.

When I studying there, after my visit to Dachau I came back to my village and was in the local bar having a beer with a few locals I made friends with. They told me straight up "now that you've visited please don't think too badly of us. We didn't want this to happen and we are not the same people anymore"....and then alot of them felt they needed to explain that their families were not part of it...whether they were farmers or whatever.

It was an interesting experience nonetheless.

I've met quite a few Germans who were of that mind. And I've also met a few whose families were actively involved, and they are secretly angry and proud of the fact, and bitter that they were stopped.

Only a few though. The vast majority of Germans I met were honestly and deeply embarassed by the whole thing.

I just know now that when you get some free time you should have fun and not get all depressed by visits to concentration camps. Life should be as much fun as possible!
Right and important? Nobody knows exactly what is "right"! And only the joys of life are really important! Away with the tragedies!
I'm sorry but this is gonna come out one way or another.

God, people like you annoy the shit out of me.

What.....? What, NSG? You all were thinking it, I just said it!
Nah, that's just a (clumsy) statement of hedonist principles... nothing to get worked up about. There are other attitudes on display on NSG that are far more annoying to people :)

IThe vast majority of Germans I met were honestly and deeply embarassed by the whole thing.

Which they shouldn't be, as THEY weren't involved in it. The older German population, though, has every reason to be ashamed.

I don't necessarily think it's the actual buildings of Auschwitz which have different degrees of "sickness", just the fact that the aura of suffering is made immortal through our memories of the place, personified by the gas chambers, trains etc.

It was truly an evil place, and the fact that the structures were purpose-built for murder is certainly one thing, but Katyn Forest has a similar aura (where around 14,000 Poles were murdered by the NKVD), and that's otherwise a bog-standard woods.

Which they shouldn't be, as THEY weren't involved in it. The older German population, though, has every reason to be ashamed.

A lot of the older ones I met were also ashamed. But there were a few who were unrepentant and bitter.

Life should be as much fun as possible!
Where'd that nutty idea come from?

If someone nearby has such an issue that they cannot walk or drive past these places, it might be a good idea to have moved in the last 50 years. These areas are more important than their stupid hang-ups.
Frankly, I don't see why they're more important than having a nice place to live. In my eyes they don't even serve any rational purpose.

Except most of the bodies were never, and likely can never be identified. These are their cemetaries.
Lots of bodies cannot be identified or recovered. They still have their crosses on graveyards however.

Yeah...Arbeit macht frei is real catchy. Untill you know that 1,700,000 people were executed.
I was being sarcastic if you didn't notice.

Some things aren't supposed to be funny or made humorous. Many things are supposed to be somber moments, and should be appropriatly respected.
Why do people have the urge to torture themselves in their free time? I wonder.

As someone who has been to both Auschwitz and Auschwitz-Birkenau, I feel as though I have the ability to contribute.

Auschwitz is far from a Wally World type of attraction. Its a museum, a memorial. Akin to Arlington cemetery and the Smithsonian all rolled into one. It's important for people to be able to visit such things because they should learn about the past, good and bad. They need to learn how a small oligarchy can turn the majority against an innocent majority. They need to learn that living in a democracy (little d) means that what happens in the country is the responsibility of everyone, not just those that are chosen to rule.

The atmosphere of Auschwitz is not one of celebration. It is one of destruction. When one sees the Zyklon-B canisters, all empty, you cannot help but feel something. The room with all the shoes collected from those that were Exterminated at Birkenau is even more powerful. The worst, though, is the display with thousands of pounds of human hair. Hair cut off the prisoners both before and after they were gassed. It was to be sold at half a Deutsch mark a kilogram. They used it to make blankets and clothes.

Anyone who thinks that the atmosphere of Auschwitz is "amusement park" like demonstrates a profound ignorance of the situation.

If you don't like it or find it morbid, just don't go.

Do not advocate for the removal of those places, as some people find them necessary to visit, for their own reasons. Even more if you are not requested to fund them or anything. You have your freedom to avoiding them, they have their reasons to go. I won't remember they are museums and not tourist attractions as it has been said already, and they are visited usually by respect.

I would visit Auschwitz, to really get the scale of the things that happened there. I've never have the chance so far. The capability of mankind for evil is something I want engraved in my mind, not for a morbid sentiment, but because I want to preach against intolerance and its consequences with a true feel of abhorrance.

I know what happened, I've seen pictures, but yet, something is still lacking about the comprehension of what people did there, what people suffered there. I don't know, perhaps I could get a tiny bit of that inside if I visit the place. The only way to know is indeed going.

The only objection I see is forcing people, kids or not, to visit those places. You should always have the freedom to say you don't want to go.

Even during WWII, it was literally a suburb.

What boggles my mind is that locals had the audacity to say that they had no idea what was going on in the camp.

I was stationed (in the 1980s) on a missile base near Stuttgart. Everyone in town knew what we were doing, and many business owners seemed to know when we were going to go on alert before most soldiers on the base knew.

It was complete bullshit that they said that they didn't know.

they didnt want to know.

those who did, died.

The worst, though, is the display with thousands of pounds of human hair. Hair cut off the prisoners both before and after they were gassed. It was to be sold at half a Deutsch mark a kilogram. They used it to make blankets and clothes.


Only reading this gave me a shiver and a deep sense of...something. Actually, I am feeling a bit...sick. I'm pretty sure I'd throw up when faced with something like that in such a scale.

Sorry, just wanted to comment it blog-like, because it was a rather strong feeling I'm not used to. I'm pretty sure I'm going to think about what you wrote for the rest of the day.

Where'd that nutty idea come from?

So what do you think life is all about? (And don't give me any religious answer, please.)

So what do you think life is all about? (And don't give me any religious answer, please.)Eh? More than simple Utilitarianism, that's what. Making the world a better place for everyone. Visiting a concentration camp to see how not to do it would be a good start in that direction, even from a (realistic) utilitarian viewpoint.

Only reading this gave me a shiver and a deep sense of...something. Actually, I am feeling a bit...sick. I'm pretty sure I'd throw up when faced with something like that in such a scale.

Sorry, just wanted to comment it blog-like, because it was a rather strong feeling I'm not used to. I'm pretty sure I'm going to think about what you wrote for the rest of the day.

I remember the hair too. Now imagine there are school trips to those places! What do you think the kids feel like?

Edit: That's a question to all the people here

But there were a few who were unrepentant and bitter.

They'll die in a few years anyways. They don't matter.

Eh? More than simple Utilitarianism, that's what. Making the world a better place for everyone. Visiting a concentration camp to see how not to do it would be a good start in that direction, even from a (realistic) utilitarian viewpoint.

So to put it into other words: Have fun and allow most other people to have fun too. Am I right?

What about the families of genocide victims who have no way of remembering their family, or have not even been able to set eyes on their faces? I have no extended family, and only half a clue of what the Sovjets, Nazis or Poles did to them. I can't go to a concentration camp to give a belated "goodbye", because I don't even know the towns they came from.

I remember the hair too. Now imagine there are school trips to those places! What do you think the kids feel like?

As I said, I'm contrary to the idea of forcing people to visit those places. It is a violation of their freedom to choose.

Closing the camp museum's is a violation of the freedom of those who want to visit them to either grasp the idea of what happened, mourn, or remember.

Only reading this gave me a shiver and a deep sense of...something. Actually, I am feeling a bit...sick. I'm pretty sure I'd throw up when faced with something like that in such a scale.

Sorry, just wanted to comment it blog-like, because it was a rather strong feeling I'm not used to. I'm pretty sure I'm going to think about what you wrote for the rest of the day.

Aye, it was very...something. I can't really describe what was running through my body at the time.

Birkenau was the worst, though. While Auschwitz proper was light an airy (somewhat at odds with it's history), Birkenau was scary. Just by stepping foot inside the gates gave you a shiver. It's almost like you could feel the millions of souls that perished there. The men, the women, and the children, its like they're still there. It's the damned creepiest place I've ever been. I will never forget Auschwitz for as long as I live.

So to put it into other words: Have fun and allow most other people to have fun too. Am I right?Yup, just when you look at it that simply, people could become convinced that a fallacious attitude like yours would be an acceptable manifestation of such a philosophy.

So to put it into other words: Have fun and allow most other people to have fun too. Am I right?

No you're not. Life is about making sure everyone has a fair chance and is able to enjoy what we enjoy. Your philosophy is self-centred, whereas mine is similar, but involves sacrifice for a greater good, and the "fun" of all. You can't just "allow" oppressed peoples to have fun, and "allow" the poor families of Nazi murder victims to have "fun" whilst not being "allowed" to see the site where they lost their beloved.

But then again, you seem to be a self-concerned byproduct of capitalism anyway, so hey.

No you're not. Life is about making sure everyone has a fair chance and is able to enjoy what we enjoy. Your philosophy is self-centred, whereas mine is similar, but involves sacrifice for a greater good, and the "fun" of all. You can't just "allow" oppressed peoples to have fun, and "allow" the poor families of Nazi murder victims to have "fun" whilst not being "allowed" to see the site where they lost their beloved.

But then again, you seem to be a self-concerned byproduct of capitalism anyway, so hey.

And you, Sir, are overreacting to a relatively light hearted and well intentioned way of thinking, even if you do not agree with it. (I, for one, disagree with Kattia too, for instance).

And of course, the ideological and political message sent in the final line, filled with assumption, disdain and prejudice and unwanted references and content is not helping your cause. Too much loathing to be caring truly about the "sacrifice for a greater good", and the "fun" of all.

No, I don't think they're supposed to be fun. I didn't think in those days either.
I just know now that when you get some free time you should have fun and not get all depressed by visits to concentration camps. Life should be as much fun as possible!
Right and important? Nobody knows exactly what is "right"! And only the joys of life are really important! Away with the tragedies!

Denial is not healthy, mentally.
And it's one step from constructing happyshinyland by removing evidence of difficult events in history and completely denying that they ever existed.

I don't really think coming back is a good way to come to terms with what happened. I certainly wouldn't return to where the worst harm was done to me. Besides people get harmed all the time in many different places and nobody preserves most of them. Why should this be any different? Because how many suffered there? And what about those people that reside nearby or have to go past it to get to work/shop/whatever?

Who are you to tell people what helps them come to terms with their past, and what doesn't?
I know of many who went back to the concentration camps, after decades of working up their memories and slowly coming to terms with what was done to them. And many found it a closing experience, something that allowed them to make their peace with themselves and those who mistreated them so badly.
Yes, people do get hurt elsewhere. But I think you'd be VERY hard put to find other places at which so many were hurt at the same time.


Erm... Well... I wouldn't mind if there were no cemeteries. But I understand that some people just have to have something to remember their deceased loved ones by. So cemeteries, why not (there's no suffering to be associated with that). But just as people that die at home don't get their cross put in the living room so shouldn't those that die in concentration camps automatically get the right to have a memorial cross put in the place they died. Put their crosses in graveyards if their relatives want them (and finance them - just like everybody else).

Those places ARE graveyards. Thousands were killed and burned there. They're as close to a final resting place as those who were killed are ever going to get.


I don't remember exactly. Maybe we were told that it's either the camp or school in a different class so I naturally wanted to go but changed my mind when we actually got there and I saw the exterior and the catchy "Arbeit macht frei" phrase in rusted metal above the fortified main gate. I just know I had to go at one point or another.


I didn't do it to be funny. I wanted to ease the dark mood that's been all around. I wouldn't mind doing it again (possibly with a more fitting joke). It's always better to be happy than sad.
It didn't teach me anything besides to stay out of concentration camps the next time because they're no fun at all.

There are some things normal people aren't happy about, and don't want to be happy about.
And no, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being sad now and then. Anything else is nothing but denial.

And you, Sir, are overreacting to a relatively light hearted and well intentioned way of thinking, even if you do not agree with it. (I, for one, disagree with Kattia too, for instance).

And of course, the ideological and political message sent in the final line, filled with assumption, disdain and prejudice and unwanted references and content is not helping your cause. Too much loathing to be caring truly about the "sacrifice for a greater good", and the "fun" of all.

Firstly, capitalism in itself is not bad, it's just that with Conservatives etc. (Kattia's obviously something like that) there is a sort of: "Well, I'm alright, Jack." attitude. Like Marie Antoinette talking about France's poorest, saying: "Let them eat cake". Do you get what I'm saying? It may be an unwanted reference, but it's not wrong.

Sometimes you just have to not mince your words.

Which they shouldn't be, as THEY weren't involved in it. The older German population, though, has every reason to be ashamed.

The older generations tend to be defensive and make excuses.
Yes, they let it happen. Then again, few knew where it would actually go once it started, and once it HAD started there was precious little they could do to stop it.
If anything, most of them can only be accused of being very, very blue-eyed...

It's the younger generation that feels the need to avoid being so simple and naive, and that will be very concious of what happened back then and why.
It's some sort of collective guilt (after all, children will inevitably be embarassed about heir parents, no matter what), but moreso a feeling of responsibility not ever to let this happen again and just stand by.

Firstly, capitalism in itself is not bad, it's just that with Conservatives etc. (Kattia's obviously something like that)
I don't get the link between Kattia's utilitarian ideals and conservatism.

Firstly, capitalism in itself is not bad, it's just that with Conservatives etc. (Kattia's obviously something like that)

I don't think it's obvious. You can advocate denial without being a conservative, even then, without a political stance. Emotional postures are not necessarily a political view.

Do you get what I'm saying? It may be an unwanted reference, but it's not wrong.

Sometimes you just have to not mince your words.

It's unwanted, and wrong because it is impertinent to the matter at hand. We're not discussing politics.

No, from her posts she is right wing. Not all conservatives are gun-toting Texans. A lot of them are just anarchists with a budget.

I don't think it's obvious. You can advocate denial without being a conservative, even then, without a political stance. Emotional postures are not necessarily a political view.



It's unwanted, and wrong because it is impertinent to the matter at hand. We're not discussing politics.

No, I was replying to a ri poste. Yes, I agree that we're not (or shouldn't be) discussing politics, I was merely trying to argue with a conflicting viewpoint, someone who only cares about "Happy-Happy-Fun-Fun" land, and would not even allow the family of Holocaust victims to see where their relatives perished, or even the victims themselves. That absolutely appalls me, and reeks of self-centeredness.

Also, I'm not saying Conservatism itself is always this way, but this kind of person tends to be drawn to Conservatism. Chicken and the egg, etcetera.

Ok, so I was on the "Hitler" thread, and I just thought of something. Concentration camps like Auschwitz, and others have been turned into museums and tourist attractions. Am I the only one who think this is morbidly sick? I mean, I know that we learn from the past so we don't repeat it, and I know we can't cover it up. But at the same time, to have a place where millions of people died in the most horrible manner turned into a museum and tourist attraction...it just seems kinda sick to me.

Your thoughts?

I don´t think it´s sicker than having a place like Alcatráz turned into a tourist attraction. How many people do you think died there awaiting trial or were executed? The same goes for the Tower of London, where many have lost their lives throughout the centuries, or the Great Wall of China, where thousands of workers lost their lives and became part of the mortar that keeps the wall standing.

I guess we humans have a morbid taste for history. Everything is soaked in the blood of someone or a few thousand. It´s not morbid, it´s just our unfortunate history as a society.

I don´t think it´s sicker than having a place like Alcatráz turned into a tourist attraction. How many people do you think died there awaiting trial or were executed? The same goes for the Tower of London, where many have lost their lives throughout the centuries, or the Great Wall of China, where thousands of workers lost their lives and became part of the mortar that keeps the wall standing.

I guess we humans have a morbid taste for history. Everything is soaked in the blood of someone or a few thousand. It´s not morbid, it´s just our unfortunate history as a society.
History is interesting, but the whole idea behind RECORDING history is so people don't forget what happened, so they don't repeat their mistakes.

Well, it turns out humans like repetition.

Putting in a waterslide would be morbidly sick.

History is interesting, but the whole idea behind RECORDING history is so people don't forget what happened, so they don't repeat their mistakes.

Well, it turns out humans like repetition.

That´s because we do not learn the lessons, no matter how many times we´re put through them.;)

That´s because we do not learn the lessons, no matter how many times we´re put through them.;)
Definitely.

We watched Resnais's "Night and Fog" in the 8th grade. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048434/)

That was as much Holocaust as I ever need to see. I haven't seen any fictionalized versions of the story (no, not even Schindler's List). The point is made best by the original films. If I ever visit Europe, I'll do something else.

I went to Dachau a couple of weeks ago. I had a nauseous feeling the whole time I was there. Somehow I didn't cry, I don't know why because I felt really sad. But I was very glad that I had gone afterwards.

History is interesting, but the whole idea behind RECORDING history is so people don't forget what happened, so they don't repeat their mistakes.

Well, it turns out humans like repetition.

You have Melkor quoted in your sig, how funny.

Has there been a water slide installed? An amusement park? Gift shoppe?

No. It stands the same way it stood decades ago as an example of how dangerous and horrible genocide is. And, until this changes, these unhappy monuments deserve to stand.

As a slight sidenote, me and my friends were down at Epcot in Feb, talking about how Disney had talked about building a ride for the Germany pavilion, and how it should be named the Holocoaster.

THAT is exploitation.

Nah, exploitation would be making it an interactive theme park complete with Birkenau Revolt Laser Tag...play as either the Sonderkommandos or the Einsatzgruppen!

Denial is not healthy, mentally.
And it's one step from constructing happyshinyland by removing evidence of difficult events in history and completely denying that they ever existed.

I do not advocate denial! Those things happened and we shouldn't doubt that! It's just that reminding yourself constantly won't make anything better. There's no point in that. It's history. We should focus ourselves on the present and the future.

Firstly, capitalism in itself is not bad, it's just that with Conservatives etc. (Kattia's obviously something like that) there is a sort of: "Well, I'm alright, Jack." attitude. Like Marie Antoinette talking about France's poorest, saying: "Let them eat cake". Do you get what I'm saying? It may be an unwanted reference, but it's not wrong.

Personally, I feel kinda insulted by the comparison to Conservatives. I hate the idea of conservatism. Also you misunderstand me! I don't say it's all about me being happy! I say it's about reaching a state where the largest number of people are happy. Make yourself happy by all means but be sure you don't do it at the expense of other people's happiness. Also it's admirable to fight for other people's happiness and to sacrifice part of your happiness to make other people happy. I hope you understand my philosophy better now.

History is interesting, but the whole idea behind RECORDING history is so people don't forget what happened, so they don't repeat their mistakes.

Well, it turns out humans like repetition.

Recently I had an interesting talk with my friend who thinks trips to concentration camps might have a part in introducing young people to neo-nazism. Those that understand the wrongness of the camps don't need "proof". Those that do not either don't believe that it actually happened (and I don't see how they could be convinced by visiting if they believe in the "anti-nazist conspiracy" from the start) or are fascinated by the subject. The latter are, sadly, even more encouraged in their aggressive tendencies by being faced with the "awesome" evidence of the Nazist cruelty.
It's therefore better for the young people to not have the opportunity. Allowing (and even encouraging) children to go there is just bad. I would be more for allowing them to watch porn (Yes, I was the one who made that thread) or even have sex as it is much less harmful to them.

Those places ARE graveyards. Thousands were killed and burned there. They're as close to a final resting place as those who were killed are ever going to get.
Why do they have to be close to their "final resting place"? There are lots of places where people died and they are not being protected just because of that! If we would not take into consideration the number of people that died there (as that's the only reason I see behind it) we would have to protect so many places that we wouldn't have anywhere to live! It's essentially discrimination!

I do not advocate denial! Those things happened and we shouldn't doubt that! It's just that reminding yourself constantly won't make anything better. There's no point in that. It's history. We should focus ourselves on the present and the future.

Constantly? How many times have you been to a concentration camp, then?


Recently I had an interesting talk with my friend who thinks trips to concentration camps might have a part in introducing young people to neo-nazism. Those that understand the wrongness of the camps don't need "proof". Those that do not either don't believe that it actually happened (and I don't see how they could be convinced by visiting if they believe in the "anti-nazist conspiracy" from the start) or are fascinated by the subject. The latter are, sadly, even more encouraged in their aggressive tendencies by being faced with the "awesome" evidence of the Nazist cruelty.
It's therefore better for the young people to not have the opportunity. Allowing (and even encouraging) children to go there is just bad. I would be more for allowing them to watch porn (Yes, I was the one who made that thread) or even have sex as it is much less harmful to them.

Again, this is not about "proof". It is about getting a close experience with history.
It's not about convincing anybody of anything, it's simply presenting fact and a place to mourn the dead. You can take that any way you want.

It is never, ever better to withold knowledge from children. And that is what the concentration camps are for most students who take those trips : a very direct form of knowledge.

We are not talking about 5-year old kids visiting those places, but teenagers.


Why do they have to be close to their "final resting place"? There are lots of places where people died and they are not being protected just because of that! If we would not take into consideration the number of people that died there (as that's the only reason I see behind it) we would have to protect so many places that we wouldn't have anywhere to live! It's essentially discrimination!

Well, guess what? We tend to have memorials in places where a lot of people died violently.
Have you ever been to Eastern France? The Boyne Valley? Tuol Sleng?

If there are corpses to bury, the memorials take the form of cemetaries. If there aren't, they take different shapes, such as in the concentration camps.

Nah, exploitation would be making it an interactive theme park complete with Birkenau Revolt Laser Tag...play as either the Sonderkommandos or the Einsatzgruppen!

OMG that's so fuct up...

And yet I'm holding back a laugh. Is that wrong?

Constantly? How many times have you been to a concentration camp, then?The obvious answer would be once a day, since that is the kind of constantly we're talking about. Maybe once a week, month, or year, if we're stretching the definition.

Constantly? How many times have you been to a concentration camp, then?
There are lots of ways one could be reminded. This is just one of them.

Again, this is not about "proof". It is about getting a close experience with history.
It's not about convincing anybody of anything, it's simply presenting fact and a place to mourn the dead. You can take that any way you want.
So if you'd have a time machine you would regularly go back in time to see your loved ones die? Because, you know, that would be an extra dimension of closeness to the point of their death. Extra precision for mourning.

It is never, ever better to withold knowledge from children. And that is what the concentration camps are for most students who take those trips : a very direct form of knowledge.
Again, suppose you'd have a time machine. Would you take your children to actually witness the events? The knowledge would be even more direct that way.

We are not talking about 5-year old kids visiting those places, but teenagers.
Who do you think is more susceptible to the Neo-Nazist ideology? 5-year old kids or teenagers?

Well, guess what? We tend to have memorials in places where a lot of people died violently.
Have you ever been to Eastern France? The Boyne Valley? Tuol Sleng?
No. And if I ever go there it won't be because of the memorials.

If there are corpses to bury, the memorials take the form of cemetaries. If there aren't, they take different shapes, such as in the concentration camps.
Concentration camps don't have exactly the same effect as crosses. In cemeteries people usually remember the good times with the people they loved not the horrors that they had to suffer before they died.

If I had a time machine, I'd make sure Stalin couldn't kill Trotskyj, I'd then kill Stalin, take over the Sovjet Union and invade Nazi Germany before the Holocaust could happen.

If I had a time machine, I'd make sure Stalin couldn't kill Trotskyj, I'd then kill Stalin, take over the Sovjet Union and invade Nazi Germany before the Holocaust could happen.

You would probably lose, get invaded back by the nazis, and manage to fuck up history in such big ways you couldn't imagine.

At least I could die trying, and they could make a movie about it with Chuck Norris.

You would probably lose, get invaded back by the nazis, and manage to fuck up history in such big ways you couldn't imagine.
Or cause a time paradox and witness the consequences (whatever they might be).
Or, most likely, he wouldn't be able to influence the past at all. (Actually that's the type of time machine I had in mind)

Or cause a time paradox and witness the consequences (whatever they might be).
Or, most likely, he wouldn't be able to influence the past at all. (Actually that's the type of time machine I had in mind)

Spoilsport... ;)

So you're talking about a sort of "'Thief 3: Deadly Shadows' witnessing the past 'n' sheet"? Because then I'm not sure if watching your relatives die is the same as mourning them where they died.

Spoilsport... ;)

So you're talking about a sort of "'Thief 3: Deadly Shadows' witnessing the past 'n' sheet"? Because then I'm not sure if watching your relatives die is the same as mourning them where they died.

I haven't played Thief 3, sorry. I was talking about time travel that doesn't affect past.
Maybe I should have chosen a simpler example but I couldn't come up with anything more fitting. Maybe watching a video of their death (though that isn't entirely what I had in mind).

Good God, that's just sick. "What was Auntie Maria like, Mummy? Maybe I'll find out by watching her get gassed..."

Good God, that's just sick. "What was Auntie Maria like, Mummy? Maybe I'll find out by watching her get gassed..."
Yeah, exactly. I find concentration camps just a little less disgusting.

I do not advocate denial! Those things happened and we shouldn't doubt that! It's just that reminding yourself constantly won't make anything better. There's no point in that. It's history. We should focus ourselves on the present and the future.

"Those that do not learn from mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them."

Agreed. Sometimes learning experiences turn distasteful, sometimes too clinical (although I doubt that a visitor to Auschwitz would be clinical).

Why not, medical experiments took place there.

To make sure you aspies don't start calling me an Anti-sematic nazi lover you can rest easy because I agree that what took place in those camps was inhuman and disgusting.

"Those that do not learn from mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them."

I always say that those that do not need to learn from the actual mistakes of the past in order not to repeat them are better off.

Oh and seeing concentration camps and learning about the suffering does not prevent you from voting for the wrong party before they build and use them.
I'm sure Hitler's ranting was reasonable before he got the leadership. But I'm not into history so I don't know for sure.

I always say that those that do not need to learn from the actual mistakes of the past in order not to repeat them are better off.

Oh and seeing concentration camps and learning about the suffering does not prevent you from voting for the wrong party before they build and use them.
I'm sure Hitler's ranting was reasonable before he got the leadership. But I'm not into history so I don't know for sure.

Read Mein Kampf?

Hitler provides an excellent example of those that fail to remember their history - he invaded the Russkies into the winter and was not at all prepared for it. In similar fashion as Napoleon.

Read Mein Kampf?
No. I don't enjoy reading books. Especially books written by fanatic dictators.

Hitler provides an excellent example of those that fail to remember their history - he invaded the Russkies into the winter and was not at all prepared for it. In similar fashion as Napoleon.
Well, his loss. Although that seems more about anticipating the tactical conditions than history.

No. I don't enjoy reading books. Especially books written by fanatic dictators.


Well, his loss. Although that seems more about anticipating the tactical conditions than history.

If he had read up on his history, he'd know how severe Russian winters are, how aclimated Russians are to bitterly cold fighting conditions, and how invading troops are generally severely underprepared to fight in locales where the temperature drops well below freezing.

No. I don't enjoy reading books.
I'm shocked.

If he had read up on his history, he'd know how severe Russian winters are, how aclimated Russians are to bitterly cold fighting conditions, and how invading troops are generally severely underprepared to fight in locales where the temperature drops well below freezing.
That's correct. However, I wouldn't say that knowing about the climate of a particular area is entirely a history thing. We're talking more about geography and tactics here.
This has nothing to do with people learning "lessons" by visiting concentration camps.

I'm schocked.
Schocking, I know :eek:

There are lots of ways one could be reminded. This is just one of them.

Yet you claim that this way, you're reminded repeatedly. So, how many times have you been to concentration camps?


So if you'd have a time machine you would regularly go back in time to see your loved ones die? Because, you know, that would be an extra dimension of closeness to the point of their death. Extra precision for mourning.

Again, suppose you'd have a time machine. Would you take your children to actually witness the events? The knowledge would be even more direct that way.

Why do you think people would do that regularly? Most people do it once, possibly twice (in different locations), I think very few are compelled to do regular pilgrimages to concentration camp sites.
And yes, if a time machine was available, people would travel back to those days.


Who do you think is more susceptible to the Neo-Nazist ideology? 5-year old kids or teenagers?

Have you ever seen a concentration camp promote Neo-Nazi ideology? Cause I frankly haven't.

The point I was making about the teenagers rather then pre-schoolers is that at the age those school trips are offered, most teenagers are able to cope emotionally with the information and images, whereas pre-school kids wouldn't be.


No. And if I ever go there it won't be because of the memorials.

Is that a reason to promote the destruction of the memorials?


Concentration camps don't have exactly the same effect as crosses. In cemeteries people usually remember the good times with the people they loved not the horrors that they had to suffer before they died.

That's bollocks.
In cemetaries, people remember the lives of their loved ones, good times AND bad times. It's hardly a case of "Oh, uncle Ron died of really painful lung cancer, but remember how funny his voice sounded once they removed his larynges?"

Yet you claim that this way, you're reminded repeatedly. So, how many times have you been to concentration camps?



Why do you think people would do that regularly? Most people do it once, possibly twice (in different locations), I think very few are compelled to do regular pilgrimages to concentration camp sites.
And yes, if a time machine was available, people would travel back to those days.



Have you ever seen a concentration camp promote Neo-Nazi ideology? Cause I frankly haven't.

The point I was making about the teenagers rather then pre-schoolers is that at the age those school trips are offered, most teenagers are able to cope emotionally with the information and images, whereas pre-school kids wouldn't be.



Is that a reason to promote the destruction of the memorials?



That's bollocks.
In cemetaries, people remember the lives of their loved ones, good times AND bad times. It's hardly a case of "Oh, uncle Ron died of really painful lung cancer, but remember how funny his voice sounded once they removed his larynges?"

Absolutely, agreed. I think it's easy to tell who is and who isn't related to Holocaust, Holodomor, or other genocide victims on this forum, and who has and has not the empathy to understand that feeling.

Additionally, there are actual victims of those camps who survived, and may want to revisit their own, horrific history. You just can't take that away, trust me.

Yet you claim that this way, you're reminded repeatedly. So, how many times have you been to concentration camps?
Not this way! Lots of other ways! The visit was one. But completely unnecessary.

Why do you think people would do that regularly? Most people do it once, possibly twice (in different locations), I think very few are compelled to do regular pilgrimages to concentration camp sites.
I was talking about the mourning theory. This is starting to get confusing.

And yes, if a time machine was available, people would travel back to those days.
To see their grandfather get gassed?

Have you ever seen a concentration camp promote Neo-Nazi ideology? Cause I frankly haven't.
It does not do that intentionally, of course.

The point I was making about the teenagers rather then pre-schoolers is that at the age those school trips are offered, most teenagers are able to cope emotionally with the information and images, whereas pre-school kids wouldn't be.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. Pre-schoolers would likely not understand and dismiss it (and not be influenced by it). Teenagers could be influenced badly (the Neo-Nazist theory).

Is that a reason to promote the destruction of the memorials?
No. That was my personal opinion not the reason.

That's bollocks.
In cemetaries, people remember the lives of their loved ones, good times AND bad times. It's hardly a case of "Oh, uncle Ron died of really painful lung cancer, but remember how funny his voice sounded once they removed his larynges?"
People can hardly remember good times when visiting a concentration camp.
It's just the bad times. And that's not healthy.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Pre-schoolers would likely not understand and dismiss it (and not be influenced by it). Teenagers could be influenced badly (the Neo-Nazist theory).


"Hey, this site of over two-and-a-half-million deaths has given me a great idea! Let's try it again, except this time we'll murder people who occasionally wear odd socks: SIEG HEIL, SIEG HEIL..."

...no, it's not likely, is it?

"Hey, this site of over two-and-a-half-million deaths has given me a great idea! Let's try it again, except this time we'll murder people who occasionally wear odd socks: SIEG HEIL, SIEG HEIL..."

...no, it's not likely, is it?
Forgive me for asking but are you really that stupid?
It shows them the power the Third Reich had. The power to control people. The power to easily silence those that were opposed. Even mixed with the idea of race purity.
They are attracted to the idea of being powerful (and having control - something they might be losing in puberty), doing whatever they want (as members of SS, Gestapo, etc.), satisfying their aggressive tendencies (without any consequences) - remember they get the largest doses of hormones at that age, being percieved as superior to the others, getting rid of those annoying gypsies, Jews, etc. all the while being celebrated as heroes.
They want all that and there was/is a movement that unites those principles! I mean, when you look at it like that, it's just perfect! It solves all their (newly found) problems effectively!

If not being a dickhead is "stupid" then yeah, I'm stupid. Seriously, quit while you're ahead. Nazism has its seductive features to a rebellious youth: power, strength in unity, personality cults; big, catchy slogans, and, ironically, discipline. However, no normal teenager is influenced by mass murder in that way, lest they be a psychopath. 12% of our society is supposedly populated by psychopaths ("Without Conscience", by Robert D.Hare, PhD) and even then, the influence of death camps is going to be miniscule.

Can you HONESTLY imagine even some fascist prone, idiotic skinhead, being positively influenced by clumps of human hair?! For God's sake, don't say: "Yes!".

Ok, so I was on the "Hitler" thread, and I just thought of something. Concentration camps like Auschwitz, and others have been turned into museums and tourist attractions. Am I the only one who think this is morbidly sick? I mean, I know that we learn from the past so we don't repeat it, and I know we can't cover it up. But at the same time, to have a place where millions of people died in the most horrible manner turned into a museum and tourist attraction...it just seems kinda sick to me.

Your thoughts?

You're confusing things.

If you're going to favor learning from the past then you have to preserve some of it. They're not death-camp themed nightclubs and theme parks. No one dresses up in nazi-uniforms to dance with glow-sticks to technoized remixes of Wagner or take a ride on the Death-train roller coaster.

Remembering horrors is not sick. Enjoying horrors is sick.

If not being a dickhead is "stupid" then yeah, I'm stupid. Seriously, quit while you're ahead. Nazism has its seductive features to a rebellious youth: power, strength in unity, personality cults; big, catchy slogans, and, ironically, discipline. However, no normal teenager is influenced by mass murder in that way, lest they be a psychopath. 12% of our society is supposedly populated by psychopaths ("Without Conscience", by Robert D.Hare, PhD) and even then, the influence of death camps is going to be miniscule.

Can you HONESTLY imagine even some fascist prone, idiotic skinhead, being positively influenced by clumps of human hair?! For God's sake, don't say: "Yes!".

Generally, kids here go to the Museum of Tolerance, a museum dedicated to remembering the tragedy of all genocide, particularly the Holocaust. Then, about a year or two later, we study 20th and 21st century history.

Maybe the let down of realizing that genocide isn't as glamorous as all teens think it is leads to teenage angst? :p





:rolleyes:

It is somewhat disturbing, yes, but it serves as a sort of sick reminder of the horrors that happened during the time of Hitler.

On the other hand, these museams can be seen as a sign that people have already forgotten how horrible tha concentration camps were.

Generally, kids here go to the Museum of Tolerance, a museum dedicated to remembering the tragedy of all genocide, particularly the Holocaust. Then, about a year or two later, we study 20th and 21st century history.

Maybe the let down of realizing that genocide isn't as glamorous as all teens think it is leads to teenage angst? :p





:rolleyes:

Hmm. I have to say I still don't understand Kattia's point. There is no glamour in genocide. Would Hitler have risen to power if he explained every precise feature of his "Final Solution" to the German people? Absolutely not, no way!

Hmm. I have to say I still don't understand Kattia's point. There is no glamour in genocide. Would Hitler have risen to power if he explained every precise feature of his "Final Solution" to the German people? Absolutely not, no way!

There's no glamour in it, but history books seem to give you a bigger writeup if you do it.

I agree, but can you honestly be somewhere where something like that happened?

I honestly could not. I've never been to these camps, but I doubt I'd be able to stomach the fact that something so horrible, so disgusting happened.

Persoanly id have no qualms or problems going there at all.

As a blood Jew and historian, I believe making concentration camps into museums and tourist attractions is pretty important. Let's face it, people need to see something a little morbid before they begin to care... Why do you think they show all the skinny, dying, African children on those TV adds begging for money? The whole point of these museums is to appall so people actually give a damn when ethnic and religious genocide takes place. Obviously a line has to be drawn somewhere, but I don't think the Europeans who run these camps/museums have crossed it.... Now if they paid people to starve themselves and walk around the camp in rags, THAT would be highly inappropriate.

Another thing, if we start taking down museums due to the fact that they have morbid connotations, you really start to get on a slippery slope... With that logic, it could be said that thousands of Americans died at the Civil War battlefields, so we should take down the Civil War battlefield tours/muesuems and replace them with strip malls simply to destroy that area's morbid connotations.

To put it shortly, history is not a pragmatic field of study. There are some historians who try and make it pragmatic and politically correct, but they really do the field a great disservice in doing so. As a blood Jew, I can see your point of view and you make a good point... But lets face it, people need to be able to see and touch things for themselves rather than looking at pictures.

Ok, so I was on the "Hitler" thread, and I just thought of something. Concentration camps like Auschwitz, and others have been turned into museums and tourist attractions. Am I the only one who think this is morbidly sick? I mean, I know that we learn from the past so we don't repeat it, and I know we can't cover it up. But at the same time, to have a place where millions of people died in the most horrible manner turned into a museum and tourist attraction...it just seems kinda sick to me.

Your thoughts?

Hmmm, I just read something about a guy going into a Wax museum to tear of Hitler's head. He complained about, but the officials responded, "It's history"

And I would agree, you can't really erase history, so these things should be put up as a reminder.

But then again, making statues/models of Hitler is one step closer to venerating the fucker.

I'm not saying I support him. I can understand the anger, but the Americans can't wipe out Bushes' presidency...

Overall all though, in answer to your question, making muesuems (spelled wrong) of Auschwitz isn't a good idea. There is still generations of families who are affected.

It is a place where history happened. Violent, brutal, savage history, yet history none the less. A history that should never be forgotten

Some things can't just be learned from books.

Hahaha, yeah, right, like people are gonna remember the Holocaust. They've forgotten the Holodomor, the Armernian genocide, the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the annihilation of Carthage, and they'll forget this too.

Hahaha, yeah, right, like people are gonna remember the Holocaust. They've forgotten the Holodomor, the Armernian genocide, the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the annihilation of Carthage, and they'll forget this too.

"Who remembers the Armenians?"

oh, I've Godwinned the thread...

The Holodomor was at least as big as the Holocaust. My family were victims of it, and it's horrible that it's not even recognised by the British government as being a genocide! Maybe you can't blame ordinary people for their ignorance, but you can blame the people whose job is to spoonfeed them everything they'll ever know.

The Holodomor was at least as big as the Holocaust. My family were victims of it, and it's horrible that it's not even recognised by the British government as being a genocide! Maybe you can't blame ordinary people for their ignorance, but you can blame the people whose job is to spoonfeed them everything they'll ever know.

You probably won't appreciate Andaras (another user) here. He thinks Stalin walks on water.

No, that pisses me off. I wish there were more real Socialists around, instead of just kids who spout Trotskyj quotes at me.

But then again, making statues/models of Hitler is one step closer to venerating the fucker.

Eh, context matters. I really don't see a wax model of Hitler defeated and about to kill himself within a larger exhibit on major figures in German history as being in any way flattering to Hitler - it simply acknowledges that he was indisputably a major figure in German history, even if pretty much everyone wishes he hadn't been.

Eh, context matters. I really don't see a wax model of Hitler defeated and about to kill himself within a larger exhibit on major figures in German history as being in any way flattering to Hitler - it simply acknowledges that he was indisputably a major figure in German history, even if pretty much everyone wishes he hadn't been.

The longer Hitler is remembered, the longer Germany will be Western Europe's basket case. Russia had that jerk Stalin and China had Mao, but nobody's constantly holding them to task over it, are they?