NationStates Jolt Archive

Now that I have your attention, I'll elaborate.

As I've mentioned occasionally on this forum, I write short stories, mostly sci fi/fantasy setting. I've got an idea for one that I want to try but I feel woefully unprepared to do it justice.

In many fantasy settings, including my own, there's usually a typical order of Knights who uphold the highest ideals of the land in which they live. They're the Paladin of the older (and truer) versions of the AD&D game. They're paragons of virtue in every way...

And I want to explore the perspective of someone who becomes such a knight but is, a closeted homosexual. I want to LEARN something here, not preach anything, and for that I need the perspective of someone who has dealt with the issues that will come up. So what I'm looking for is:

-Ideally a male
-Someone who has lived in a setting where religion or traditionalism has made it difficult or impossible to come out to family
-Someone who has an interest in fantasy sci-fi
-Someone who's willing to exchange E-mails and be completely frank and honest.
-An adult (Over 18)

Some of the elements in the fantasy setting I'd use:

This particular order of knights hails form the southern coast of a continent that rests on a mostly frozen world. The character I'm creating has been a member of this order since his adolescent years, and only one person knows what's really happening with him, an older cleric archetype who has been his mentor and friend. The main character hasn't specifically come out, but this mentor strongly suspects.

I want to explore the thoughts and feelings of this character, I want to detail conversations with this mentor, and I haven't yet decided how the story would end. The framework of the story is a military campaign to bring order to a land whose ruler has died without an heir, and the knights have been mobilized to stabilize the region and possibly annex it in the name of the king.

If you'd like to help out, just reply here or TG me.

And now, for the sake of discussion, let's take some of the more well known genres of High Fantasy like Lord of the Rings, Dragonlance, etc and imagine what they'd be like if a main character were gay. Would the story be any different? If so, how?

Now that I have your attention, I'll elaborate.

As I've mentioned occasionally on this forum, I write short stories, mostly sci fi/fantasy setting. I've got an idea for one that I want to try but I feel woefully unprepared to do it justice.

In many fantasy settings, including my own, there's usually a typical order of Knights who uphold the highest ideals of the land in which they live. They're the Paladin of the older (and truer) versions of the AD&D game. They're paragons of virtue in every way...

And I want to explore the perspective of someone who becomes such a knight but is, a closeted homosexual. I want to LEARN something here, not preach anything, and for that I need the perspective of someone who has dealt with the issues that will come up. So what I'm looking for is:

-Ideally a male
-Someone who has lived in a setting where religion or traditionalism has made it difficult or impossible to come out to family
-Someone who has an interest in fantasy sci-fi
-Someone who's willing to exchange E-mails and be completely frank and honest.
-An adult (Over 18)

Some of the elements in the fantasy setting I'd use:

This particular order of knights hails form the southern coast of a continent that rests on a mostly frozen world. The character I'm creating has been a member of this order since his adolescent years, and only one person knows what's really happening with him, an older cleric archetype who has been his mentor and friend. The main character hasn't specifically come out, but this mentor strongly suspects.

I want to explore the thoughts and feelings of this character, I want to detail conversations with this mentor, and I haven't yet decided how the story would end. The framework of the story is a military campaign to bring order to a land whose ruler has died without an heir, and the knights have been mobilized to stabilize the region and possibly annex it in the name of the king.

If you'd like to help out, just reply here or TG me.

And now, for the sake of discussion, let's take some of the more well known genres of High Fantasy like Lord of the Rings, Dragonlance, etc and imagine what they'd be like if a main character were gay. Would the story be any different? If so, how?
Well, I think it's obvious Sam was Bisexual... :D

And now, for the sake of discussion, let's take some of the more well known genres of High Fantasy like Lord of the Rings, Dragonlance, etc and imagine what they'd be like if a main character were gay. Would the story be any different? If so, how?

Most of the main characters of the Lord of the Rings... ¿Are NOT gay? :rolleyes:

I need a gay person.

Now that I have your attention, I'll elaborate.

Oh, please don't. :)

Oh, please don't. :)

Gah!

Dumbledore is gay...

Most of the main characters of the Lord of the Rings... ¿Are NOT gay? :rolleyes:

no they are NOT.

no they are NOT.

Well, now, in fairness... They are. Closeted, but most certainly gay.

Most of the main characters of the Lord of the Rings... ¿Are NOT gay? :rolleyes:

I heard the One Ring was actually a cockring. And it vibrated. You think its just coincidence that the Nazgul are guys?

Well, now, in fairness... They are. Closeted, but most certainly gay.

no

although boromir probably is since jrr described him as the kind of manly man who isnt much interested in women.

no

although boromir probably is since jrr described him as the kind of manly man who isnt much interested in women.

Well, he was the first to spring to my mind, closely followed by Aragorn (dragging the closet behind him).

And Frodo and Sam, of course, and Merry and Pippin... you mean you never wondered why they all seemed to end up in pairs?

Well, he was the first to spring to my mind, closely followed by Aragorn (dragging the closet behind him).

And Frodo and Sam, of course, and Merry and Pippin... you mean you never wondered why they all seemed to end up in pairs?

lol. it must be a hobbit cultural thing.

they cant be gay because tolkein didnt write gay characters (boromir partially excepted).

no matter how many lovey-dovey things sam said to frodo--and they are SOOOOO gay---sam isnt gay. no matter that bilbo has been unattached (to a female hobbit) for all 110+ years of his life, he is NOT gay.

Well, he was the first to spring to my mind, closely followed by Aragorn (dragging the closet behind him).

And Frodo and Sam, of course, and Merry and Pippin... you mean you never wondered why they all seemed to end up in pairs?

As a LOTR fan, I must admit I get very tired of the "gay hobbits" jokes, mostly because they come off, oddly enough, as rather homophobic. The general gist seems to be "hur hur, they're male but express affection for other males without being all grossed out - that's so GAY!"

Some of the characters might very well be gay, but frankly, given that Sam is quite explicitly attracted to Rosie Cotton (and makes a heckuva lot of babies with her), the only justification I can see for declaring him gay is simply the above "hur hur" logic. (Also, if people actually check the ages of Pippin and Merry, imagining them as a couple becomes freaking creepy. Pippin is still a child in hobbit terms, and their relationship makes infinitely more sense as a sort of adopted big-brother, little-brother one than anything romantic.)

And, honestly, whatever people think of annoying-movie-Arwen, book-Arwen and Aragorn's romance is actually quite sweet and beautiful, so I can't exactly see her as a beard, either. Again, the only rationale I can see is the "hur hur, he totally kissed Boromir on the forehead when he was dying, LOL GAYNESS" silliness.

But as for the characters with no explicit romantic interests, sure, they might be gay. Gimli can totally be into boy-dwarfs if people like him to be. :p

lol. it must be a hobbit cultural thing.

they cant be gay because tolkein didnt write gay characters (boromir partially excepted).

no matter how many lovey-dovey things sam said to frodo--and they are SOOOOO gay---sam isnt gay. no matter that bilbo has been unattached (to a female hobbit) for all 110+ years of his life, he is NOT gay.

Well, Bilbo HAS paired up with Frodo for quite a while, hasn't he?
So just because Tolkien never used the word "gay" (well, not in today's sense anyway) none of his characters were gay?
Does that work the other way around, too? Like how Jane Austen never used the word straight, does that mean Mr Bingley and Mr Darcy got it on occasionally?

;)

There are sites where you can put adverts like this....


:p

Craigslist, for one.

Or you can just go to the interstate, and stop in at a rest stop, and go in the men's bathroom.

Or you can grease up, and just wait for Fass.

And now, for the sake of discussion, let's take some of the more well known genres of High Fantasy like Lord of the Rings, Dragonlance, etc and imagine what they'd be like if a main character were gay. Would the story be any different? If so, how?

Wait... Sam and Frodo weren't gay?
:confused:

Well, Bilbo HAS paired up with Frodo for quite a while, hasn't he?
So just because Tolkien never used the word "gay" (well, not in today's sense anyway) none of his characters were gay?
Does that work the other way around, too? Like how Jane Austen never used the word straight, does that mean Mr Bingley and Mr Darcy got it on occasionally?

;)


I thought Bilbo was Frodo's uncle? not that that means they couldn't have got up to fun and games, of course, but I never picked up any connotations of that in the books.

I thought Bilbo was Frodo's uncle? not that that means they couldn't have got up to fun and games, of course, but I never picked up any connotations of that in the books.

Well, while I have to admit that the Merry-Pippin thing is a bit far fetched, Bilbo and Frodo, Sam and Frodo and Aragorn and Boromir have always struck me as more than a little camp altogether.

lol. it must be a hobbit cultural thing.

they cant be gay because tolkein didnt write gay characters (boromir partially excepted).

no matter how many lovey-dovey things sam said to frodo--and they are SOOOOO gay---sam isnt gay. no matter that bilbo has been unattached (to a female hobbit) for all 110+ years of his life, he is NOT gay.
Ignoring that Sam and Frodo lived in the same house for a number of years, with no one else there, and considering everything Sam has said about how much he loves Frodo...:eek:

As a LOTR fan, I must admit I get very tired of the "gay hobbits" jokes, mostly because they come off, oddly enough, as rather homophobic. The general gist seems to be "hur hur, they're male but express affection for other males without being all grossed out - that's so GAY!"

Some of the characters might very well be gay, but frankly, given that Sam is quite explicitly attracted to Rosie Cotton (and makes a heckuva lot of babies with her), the only justification I can see for declaring him gay is simply the above "hur hur" logic. (Also, if people actually check the ages of Pippin and Merry, imagining them as a couple becomes freaking creepy. Pippin is still a child in hobbit terms, and their relationship makes infinitely more sense as a sort of adopted big-brother, little-brother one than anything romantic.)

And, honestly, whatever people think of annoying-movie-Arwen, book-Arwen and Aragorn's romance is actually quite sweet and beautiful, so I can't exactly see her as a beard, either. Again, the only rationale I can see is the "hur hur, he totally kissed Boromir on the forehead when he was dying, LOL GAYNESS" silliness.

But as for the characters with no explicit romantic interests, sure, they might be gay. Gimli can totally be into boy-dwarfs if people like him to be. :p
Yup, I entirely agree.

As a LOTR fan, I must admit I get very tired of the "gay hobbits" jokes, mostly because they come off, oddly enough, as rather homophobic. The general gist seems to be "hur hur, they're male but express affection for other males without being all grossed out - that's so GAY!"

Some of the characters might very well be gay, but frankly, given that Sam is quite explicitly attracted to Rosie Cotton (and makes a heckuva lot of babies with her), the only justification I can see for declaring him gay is simply the above "hur hur" logic. (Also, if people actually check the ages of Pippin and Merry, imagining them as a couple becomes freaking creepy. Pippin is still a child in hobbit terms, and their relationship makes infinitely more sense as a sort of adopted big-brother, little-brother one than anything romantic.)

And, honestly, whatever people think of annoying-movie-Arwen, book-Arwen and Aragorn's romance is actually quite sweet and beautiful, so I can't exactly see her as a beard, either. Again, the only rationale I can see is the "hur hur, he totally kissed Boromir on the forehead when he was dying, LOL GAYNESS" silliness.

But as for the characters with no explicit romantic interests, sure, they might be gay. Gimli can totally be into boy-dwarfs if people like him to be. :p
That WOULD explain how the dwarven race diewd out... :eek: Nah, I'm kidding.

Well, Bilbo HAS paired up with Frodo for quite a while, hasn't he?
So just because Tolkien never used the word "gay" (well, not in today's sense anyway) none of his characters were gay?
Does that work the other way around, too? Like how Jane Austen never used the word straight, does that mean Mr Bingley and Mr Darcy got it on occasionally?

;)

they arent gay because they are fictional characters created by tolkien who did not make them gay. they arent people with private lives where we can imagine bilbo diddling his adopted son and therefore he is gay. they have only the amount of life that tolkien gives them. if he doesnt write them gay, they arent gay.

same for austen. unless she mentions that darcy had a reputation as a ....i cant think of what term she might have used...gay blade when he was in the city, hes not gay. (he isnt is he?)

now boromir might be gay because tolkien seemed to imply it but he really might not have meant that kind of thing at all. he might just have mean that boromir was the kind of manly man who WHILE HE LOOKED FORWARD TO HIS WEDDING NIGHT couldnt stand the company of women in general, what with all that sewing and dancing and gossip, sitting around drinking tea out of tiny delicate cups while discussing the latest fashion, etc.

tolkien didnt seem particularly comfortable with romantic relationships, female characters, and sexuality in general. it seems very unlikely to me that he would have given his beloved male characters a nature that would have been seen as a vile perversion at the time.

Ignoring that Sam and Frodo lived in the same house for a number of years, with no one else there, and considering everything Sam has said about how much he loves Frodo...:eek:

sam does love frodo. and frodo loves sam.

but there are more kinds of love in the world than sexual love eh?

sam does love frodo. and frodo loves sam.

but there are more kinds of love in the world than sexual love eh?
True...

sam does love frodo. and frodo loves sam.

but there are more kinds of love in the world than sexual love eh?

Totally. There are 3 guys I pal around with on a regular basis and I do not hesitate to say that I love them, but that doesn't mean I want to see them nekkid. :eek:

Totally. There are 3 guys I pal around with on a regular basis and I do not hesitate to say that I love them, but that doesn't mean I want to see them nekkid. :eek:
I'm sure. :p

Elminster has them all beat. He became a woman for a while.

Elminster has them all beat. He became a woman for a while.

who is elminster?

who is elminster?

Forgotten Realms of Dungeons and Dragons. He's a Wizard, pretty damned old, and I believe was a woman for a little while in the service of his goddess.

who is elminster?

Elminster of Shadowdale is a prominent wizard in the Forgotten Realms setting of Fantasy Novels and AD&D campaign setting. He looks a lot like Gandalf which costs him originality points.

Elminster of Shadowdale is a prominent wizard in the Forgotten Realms setting of Fantasy Novels and AD&D campaign setting. He looks a lot like Gandalf which costs him originality points.

so with this request you are just looking to not make a stupid mistake that would make you seem like an idiot eh?

you arent trying to avoid looking within yourself to build this character, eh?

Neo, come out of the closet and admit you're trolling for a date...

-Ideally a male

*looks inside pants*

Check.


-Someone who has lived in a setting where religion or traditionalism has made it difficult or impossible to come out to family

*Looks at extended family portrait*

Not that much, but somewhat.

-Someone who has an interest in fantasy sci-fi

*looks into library*

Check.

-Someone who's willing to exchange E-mails and be completely frank and honest.

*Looks at 6 years of volunteer work teaching high-schoolers about sexual diversity*

Check.


-An adult (Over 18)

*Looks at first grey hair gotten this year*

Check.

That WOULD explain how the dwarven race diewd out...

Well.. Pratchettian dwarfs all have beards, wear many layers of clothing hiding everyting that could bulge and originally did not have a female pronoun ;)

Well.. Pratchettian dwarfs all have beards, wear many layers of clothing hiding everyting that could bulge and originally did not have a female pronoun ;)

He seems to go in and out on that. The first book that Carrot shows up in has him pining a bit for a female dwarf that he regularly refers to as "she".

In later books, he's explaining to others that dwarfs don't even have a female pronoun and that Cheery is considered strange.

So, yeah. I do wonder, in the latter case, how they figure it out. Do they wait until they're married and then find out if they're in a same-sex marriage or not? hehe

He seems to go in and out on that. The first book that Carrot shows up in has him pining a bit for a female dwarf that he regularly refers to as "she".

In later books, he's explaining to others that dwarfs don't even have a female pronoun and that Cheery is considered strange.

So, yeah. I do wonder, in the latter case, how they figure it out. Do they wait until they're married and then find out if they're in a same-sex marriage or not? hehe

It's mentioned in one of the books (I think it was The Fifth Elephant) that dwarfen courtship mostly consists of trying to find out what gender the other dwarf is, without being indiscreet about it.

Sheesh, I never got the whole damn deal with "X character in LotR is gay!" bullshit... There is more to love than sex, and one can be found without the other. Love between (grand) parent and (grand) child, brotherly love etc. etc. It tells more about the person who calls gay than the character itself when people point these things out...

so with this request you are just looking to not make a stupid mistake that would make you seem like an idiot eh?

you arent trying to avoid looking within yourself to build this character, eh?

Huh? Isn't research what a good author does when writing about something he doesn't have personal knowledge of?

Neo, come out of the closet and admit you're trolling for a date...

LOL dammit you've outed me.

*looks inside pants*
Check.
*Looks at extended family portrait*
Not that much, but somewhat.
*looks into library*
Check.
*Looks at 6 years of volunteer work teaching high-schoolers about sexual diversity*
Check.
*Looks at first grey hair gotten this year*
Check.

You're in. Can I use E-mail?

Well, now, in fairness... They are. Closeted, but most certainly gay.

Seconded, except that's really not the topic at hand. The whole Frodo/other hobbit is a good example of non-graphic homosexuality in fantasy, probably a good point to work from.

You're in. Can I use E-mail?

TG me or something. We'll "hook-up" on IM or by email.

I don't have a cam though, sorry. ;)


Sorry, couldn't resist

Im pretty sure Spock and Dr McCoy are gay. They argue like old lovers.

I have to say that that was an effective attention grabber...:p

I thought Bilbo was Frodo's uncle? not that that means they couldn't have got up to fun and games, of course, but I never picked up any connotations of that in the books.

Yes I always thought that he was his uncle, so it is more a case of incest and maybe even some child molestation back when Frodo was younger, and as we all know gays don't do those sort of things.

Ignoring that Sam and Frodo lived in the same house for a number of years, with no one else there, and considering everything Sam has said about how much he loves Frodo...:eek:

Yes a man saying how he loves another man, that is so GAY :rolleyes:

Sheesh, I never got the whole damn deal with "X character in LotR is gay!" bullshit... There is more to love than sex, and one can be found without the other. Love between (grand) parent and (grand) child, brotherly love etc. etc. It tells more about the person who calls gay than the character itself when people point these things out...

They are just trying to divert the attention of themselves. *nod*

Im pretty sure Spock and Dr McCoy are gay. They argue like old lovers.

That would be Illogical.

tg Me Or Something. We'll "hook-up" On Im Or By Email.

I Don't Have A Cam Though, Sorry. ;)


Sorry, Couldn't Resist

Lol

I thought Bilbo was Frodo's uncle? not that that means they couldn't have got up to fun and games, of course, but I never picked up any connotations of that in the books.

Technically, Frodo's father was Bilbo's first cousin and his mother Bilbo's second cousin, but first-and-also-second-cousin-once-removed is more of a pain to say than "nephew." :)

And given that Frodo was essentially adopted by Bilbo when he was still a child in hobbit terms, I really, really don't think that relationship was a sexual one unless one wants to envision Bilbo, always presented as a sympathetic character, as a severely creepy pedophile.

Technically, Frodo's father was Bilbo's first cousin and his mother Bilbo's second cousin, but first-and-also-second-cousin-once-removed is more of a pain to say than "nephew." :)

And given that Frodo was essentially adopted by Bilbo when he was still a child in hobbit terms, I really, really don't think that relationship was a sexual one unless one wants to envision Bilbo, always presented as a sympathetic character, as a severely creepy pedophile.

especially considering that his 111th birthday was frodos 33rd. on the day that frodo became an adult, bilbo left the shire.

oooo some good fanfiction subtext possibilities there...

I never got any gay vibes from any of the LOTR characters, and I have a very sensitive gaydar.

I always figured hobbit society was just more affectionate than ours, if I even thought about it at all, which I'm not sure I did until this thread.

You'll have to buy me a steak dinner first. Or you could make your famous chicken.

no

although boromir probably is since jrr described him as the kind of manly man who isnt much interested in women.

I'll grant that Boromir was probably compensating.


Well, he was the first to spring to my mind, closely followed by Aragorn (dragging the closet behind him).

And Frodo and Sam, of course, and Merry and Pippin... you mean you never wondered why they all seemed to end up in pairs?

Aragorn isn't gay, he just has an elf-chick fetish. The hobbits? Well, remember Tolkein was writing this 60-70 years ago. The kind of language they use between each other wasn't considered effeminate back then.

Sorry, just felt the need to defend my favorite books.

You'll have to buy me a steak dinner first. Or you could make your famous chicken.

Any excuse to do my roast chicken is a good one.

Any excuse to do my roast chicken is a good one.

The quickest way to reach a man's heart is through his stomach.

Yes I always thought that he was his uncle, so it is more a case of incest and maybe even some child molestation back when Frodo was younger, and as we all know gays don't do those sort of things.

Come again? Are you suggesting that Gays really never do those things, or was that a bit of sarcastic homophobia. Either would be dumb. Gays are just people, and you'll get at least a few sickos in every group.

Anyways, Tolkien was a rather old fasioned individual in his tastes, and a Catholic as well, so he probably believed homosexuality to be a sin. If it is not explicitely spelled out that a character is gay, and the author comes from such a back ground, I see no reason to assume they intended the character to be gay.

The quickest way to reach a man's heart is through his stomach.
No, the quickest way to a man's heart is through his CHEST! :D

No, the quickest way to a man's heart is through his CHEST! :D

No no, the quickest way to a man's heart is through his pants! *nod*

No no, the quickest way to a man's heart is through his pants! *nod*
Ouch... You'd have to do a lot of feeling around!:p.

"Is that his artery? No, wait, that's just his intestine...":D

Come again? Are you suggesting that Gays really never do those things, or was that a bit of sarcastic homophobia. Either would be dumb. Gays are just people, and you'll get at least a few sickos in every group.

Neither, it was a comment against people who say that gays never do these things, similar to people who always believe what children say because children never lie.

Anyways, Tolkien was a rather old fasioned individual in his tastes, and a Catholic as well, so he probably believed homosexuality to be a sin. If it is not explicitely spelled out that a character is gay, and the author comes from such a back ground, I see no reason to assume they intended the character to be gay.

Good point.

Now that I have your attention, I'll elaborate.

As I've mentioned occasionally on this forum, I write short stories, mostly sci fi/fantasy setting. I've got an idea for one that I want to try but I feel woefully unprepared to do it justice.

In many fantasy settings, including my own, there's usually a typical order of Knights who uphold the highest ideals of the land in which they live. They're the Paladin of the older (and truer) versions of the AD&D game. They're paragons of virtue in every way...

And I want to explore the perspective of someone who becomes such a knight but is, a closeted homosexual. I want to LEARN something here, not preach anything, and for that I need the perspective of someone who has dealt with the issues that will come up. So what I'm looking for is:

-Ideally a male
-Someone who has lived in a setting where religion or traditionalism has made it difficult or impossible to come out to family
-Someone who has an interest in fantasy sci-fi
-Someone who's willing to exchange E-mails and be completely frank and honest.
-An adult (Over 18)

Some of the elements in the fantasy setting I'd use:

This particular order of knights hails form the southern coast of a continent that rests on a mostly frozen world. The character I'm creating has been a member of this order since his adolescent years, and only one person knows what's really happening with him, an older cleric archetype who has been his mentor and friend. The main character hasn't specifically come out, but this mentor strongly suspects.

I want to explore the thoughts and feelings of this character, I want to detail conversations with this mentor, and I haven't yet decided how the story would end. The framework of the story is a military campaign to bring order to a land whose ruler has died without an heir, and the knights have been mobilized to stabilize the region and possibly annex it in the name of the king.

If you'd like to help out, just reply here or TG me.

And now, for the sake of discussion, let's take some of the more well known genres of High Fantasy like Lord of the Rings, Dragonlance, etc and imagine what they'd be like if a main character were gay. Would the story be any different? If so, how?Sounds like our dating *really* inspired you.
BTW, got another mixtape, this one has Butters doing "What What?" on it.

Well, he was the first to spring to my mind, closely followed by Aragorn (dragging the closet behind him).

And Frodo and Sam, of course, and Merry and Pippin... you mean you never wondered why they all seemed to end up in pairs?

Merry and Pippin are cousins.

Sounds like our dating *really* inspired you.
BTW, got another mixtape, this one has Butters doing "What What?" on it.

You are a vicious, heartless bastard.

Know why?

Because now that godawful song is stuck in my head :cry:

(j/k of course)

Don't we all?

Incidentally, since this thread has been brought back, I have some material actually written. I've also decided where the story is gonna go and how it will (probably) end.

I had a couple of guys who were kind enough to exchange a few e-mails with me and answer some questions, offer insights. I hope to make good use of it and of course I appreciate their time greatly.