NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes they did, but the Virgina Tech shooter didn't, and the guns Harris and Klebold used where sold legally, then given to them illegally; had the guns not been available, they would not have been able to obtain them
Actually, they would have. I was offered an illegal MAC-10 a while back. that wasn't purchased legally. You don't have to go to "great lengths" to find an illegal gun.

And I dunno if you noticed, but I could easily get cocaine from the neighborhoods around my workplace.


See, this is what I mean, you only ever see two possible outcomes:
A. He has a gun, shoots everyone
B He has a gun, someone else has a gun, He dies.

While missing the third outcome, He doesn't have a gun, the professor doesn't have a gun, no one is shot.

He'd get one anyway, which is what you haven't seen.


And didn't report them to the police? No wonder you have such a problem with guns in your country, what with such fine upstanding citizens like yourself.
They were in PAKISTAN. Ever been there? Not much in the way of "police". Unless you mean militia. And then you would have been notifying of them of their own suppliers.




So? Washington DC is like the school in my earlier example.



You know, you simply cannot get over this, can you? IF THEY DON'T HAVE A GUN, YOU DON'T NEED ONE.
You can't get over the fact that THEY WILL GET GUNS, illegally if not legally!



And herein lies the heart of the argument; you don't really care about defense, or such nonsense, no, you're worried the big bad government is going to take your toy gun away.
Actually, I'd rather leave it at some time, and I'd rather have and not need than need and not have.


And why is it you need a Weapon? Lock your damn doors, build a house with walls.
Again, I like leaving my house.


Why? I find shooting someone to be a very personal attack. Maybe you should lay of guns?

Its wrong to shoot someone who is shooting at you or other people? I think your hostility is much unwarrented.

There is *no* middle ground that is acceptable, I'm glad you'd try, it's more then the NRA and like would ever want.
There isn't? I believe one can be found that allows for less invasion of personal rights and allows for self-defense WHILE making an attempt to stop bad people from getting firearms.



But this is just the problem, they ARE handed out like candy, and even if they have no history of crime or mental illness, they could still go nuts and kill all sorts of people, and that's the problem; it's simply not enough to check once, you have to keep checking, everyday, you need to talk to everyone, etc.
True, people can change, and I could be one for constant "renewal" of a CCL, or an annual re-evaluation(or semi-annual, twice a year) that requires mental capacity to be checked as well as an ability to operate the weapon safely, effectively, and intelligently.

People can be very good actors if they want and gun sellers often don't give a shit, money is money.
Again, I agree. Many sellers don't. Also why many sell illegally. But that's human nature, and making them illegal won't help because they'll still just sell. Like you said, money is money.


Throw it in their face, it'll be a surprise!



Somehow I'm reading happy meals from this. o.o Don't know why.

Sorry if I seem harsh but I've seen a lot of stupid arguments from people like CM before, and I'm really sick of it.

I understand the stupid arguments, I hear them on both sides. But at least take a look at intelligent ones, or arguments presented respectfully in the least.

Also, I would like to note that if you are armed with a firearm or not, if someone mugs you(which seems to be the example everyone is using) its a lot brighter to hand over your wallet. I mean, come ON folks. Unless your Mr. Moneybags, you got what, mayhap fifty bucks in it? a driver's license? hand the damn thing over and go on your merry way. It is, admittedly, hard to draw and fire when someone has the drop on you, and they're out of reach. We're not all gunslinger's of Roland Deschain's caliber. I only know of one person who is.

So the UK allows you to defend yourself with reasonable force, including lethal force, but not to carry a knife? Bit hard to fight off an armed attacker unarmed, don't you think? I think people should be given stiffer penalties for unlawful USE of a weapon, and not be charged for mere possession.

There are stiff penalties for using a weapon as well.

Right, back to reading Tess of the D'Urbervilles. :)

You have my sympathies

OK, one more thing. You know the two PSP playing French students who got murdered recently? Do you think both of them would have died if one or both of them had a knife ready to go? They might have both been killed anyway, but at least they would have had a fighting chance.

Not sure of the exact situation but if they were in their flat I imagine there were plenty of kitchen knives and other ad hoc weapons easily to hand.

London's knife crime "epidemic" is a bunch of bollocks. Most of the poor innocent "victims" were knife-wielding gangsters themselves.

*nods*

Because not being able to defend yourself is downright idiotic Gravlen. I don't know if the situation is better or worse, but I'm fairly sure it's close to the USA's murder rate. They(Great Britain) want to make things look good, and, apparently, we want to make things looks bad, so the numbers aren't even close to correct on either side.

And once again, who says you are not allowed to defend yourself in the UK?

As to the differance in murder rates, I would assume that a country with a higher rate of people would also have a higer rate of murders wouldn't you.

Kill you harder.. Hehe.... I wish I had waited for my quote of the day...

I don't want to take the chance. Not everyone can run as fast as the other. I know I sure as heck wouldn't be able to get too far.

Ahhhh you see I see what it is now, pure and simple, good old fashion fear.

So the UK allows you to defend yourself with reasonable force, including lethal force, but not to carry a knife? Bit hard to fight off an armed attacker unarmed, don't you think? I think people should be given stiffer penalties for unlawful USE of a weapon, and not be charged for mere possession.

Right, back to reading Tess of the D'Urbervilles. :)

OK, one more thing. You know the two PSP playing French students who got murdered recently? Do you think both of them would have died if one or both of them had a knife ready to go? They might have both been killed anyway, but at least they would have had a fighting chance.

Umm lets just work this one through. They got killed in their own house, where presumably they had a kitchen but no knifes?

And once again, who says you are not allowed to defend yourself in the UK?

Self-defense in the US has a completely different meaning from self-defense in the UK, despite their similar origins and meanings as described in Blackstone.

Over the years, the two meanings have drifted apart, largely a result of a comparative watering down in the UK.

I posted a link to a page earlier in the thread that contains the gist of the argument, and numerous examples showing the difference.

Have you check Japan's sword crime rate?

And if your trying to claim that America has a higher gun crime rate the rest of the world, then you sir are ignorant.

Crime Statistics > Murders with firearms (most recent) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms)Showing latest available data.
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people
#2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
#3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
#4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
#5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
#6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
#7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
#9 Uruguay: 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
#10 Lithuania: 0.0230748 per 1,000 people
#11 Slovakia: 0.021543 per 1,000 people
#12 Czech Republic: 0.0207988 per 1,000 people
#13 Estonia: 0.0157539 per 1,000 people
#14 Latvia: 0.0131004 per 1,000 people
#15 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0127139 per 1,000 people
#16 Bulgaria: 0.00845638 per 1,000 people
#17 Portugal: 0.00795003 per 1,000 people
#18 Slovenia: 0.00596718 per 1,000 people
#19 Switzerland: 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
#20 Canada: 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
#21 Germany: 0.00465844 per 1,000 people
#22 Moldova: 0.00448934 per 1,000 people
#23 Hungary: 0.00439692 per 1,000 people
#24 Poland: 0.0043052 per 1,000 people
#25 Ukraine: 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
#26 Ireland: 0.00298805 per 1,000 people
#27 Australia: 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
#28 Denmark: 0.00257732 per 1,000 people
#29 Spain: 0.0024045 per 1,000 people
#30 Azerbaijan: 0.00227503 per 1,000 people
#31 New Zealand: 0.00173482 per 1,000 people
#32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people

I agree.

And once again, who says you are not allowed to defend yourself in the UK?

As to the differance in murder rates, I would assume that a country with a higher rate of people would also have a higer rate of murders wouldn't you.
Since I'm listening to the people on here, the fact they (They say) stabbing someone is unreasonable force, and you should sit them in the comfy chair until they confess instead.

And as to the murder rate... It's per 10,000. It's not the country as a whole. If it was, the USA's murder rate would be at least TEN times higher then the UK's.
Ahhhh you see I see what it is now, pure and simple, good old fashion fear.
Survival is the driving force of humanity.

Since I'm listening to the people on here, the fact they (They say) stabbing someone is unreasonable force, and you should sit them in the comfy chair until they confess instead...


Reasonble force does not mean 'not allowed to defend yoursef', and you're making yourself look thick by pretending it is, and I have witnessed nobody say anything about comfy chairs.



Survival is the driving force of humanity.

I dare say survival is a driving force of all life, but your reasons for not liking a ban on being able to carry a knife around the streets are nothing more than fear getting to you.

'I wouldn't take the chance' Fear oozes out of every word there. I would rather take the chance that a peacefull way out can be found, than stab another man in the gut out of fear and then call that self defense.

It really is your 'mindset' that is one of the causes of the violence we somtimes find on the street. It is akin to a youth in a gang getting killed, and then the other members swaring vengance, it is a self perpetuating piece of codswhallop and has zero place in sociaty. IMHO.

Reasonble force does not mean 'not allowed to defend yoursef', and you're making yourself look thick by pretending it is, and I have witnessed nobody say anything about comfy chairs.

Fine then, tell me: What is 'reasonable force'?

I dare say survival is a driving force of all life, but your reasons for not liking a ban on being able to carry a knife around the streets are nothing more than fear getting to you.

'I wouldn't take the chance' Fear oozes out of every word there. I would rather take the chance that a peacefull way out can be found, than stab another man in the gut out of fear and then call that self defense.

It really is your 'mindset' that is one of the causes of the violence we somtimes find on the street. It is akin to a youth in a gang getting killed, and then the other members swaring vengance, it is a self perpetuating piece of codswhallop and has zero place in sociaty. IMHO.
Woah, woah, woah, since when did I say anything about vengeance? You can say my opinion makes me "look thick", but I could say the same of your opinion. Especially when you start saying things that have little relation to what I actually said. I talked about self-defense, and you start talking about vengeance, and how I'm creating a cycle with it.

You can take your chances with a peaceful way, but man, as a race, is neither peaceful, nor reasonable. Also, stabbing a man in the gut in self-defense, is not going up to some random guy "ZOMG! YOUR GONNA STAB ME!!!!11!!!1" and shoving a blade into his gut, it's finding yourself confronted by someone with a knife who is about to shove a knife up your gut. Choices, choices, my life, or a ten-year stay in jail for him...

Fine then, tell me: What is 'reasonable force'?
Why not let the UK Criminal Prosecution Service tell you (http://www.cps.gov.uk/Publications/prosecution/householders.html).

Why not let the UK Criminal Prosecution Service tell you (http://www.cps.gov.uk/Publications/prosecution/householders.html).
Thank you. All of these people were telling me that was NOT reasonable force. I retract most of my previous statements about not being able to use reasonable force.
Anyone can use reasonable force to protect themselves or others, or to carry out an arrest or to prevent crime. You are not expected to make fine judgements over the level of force you use in the heat of the moment. So long as you only do what you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment, that would be the strongest evidence of you acting lawfully and in selfdefence. This is still the case if you use something to hand as a weapon.

As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more force you can lawfully use in self-defence.

Thank you. All of these people were telling me that was NOT reasonable force. I retract most of my previous statements about not being able to use reasonable force.
Although note the rest of the statement's text. If you picked up a knife in your home to defend yourself, the CPS probably wouldn't charge you, as long as your life was in genuine danger. However, if you were carrying a knife prior to the incident, you might be charged with carrying a concealed weapon, or something similar.

And once again, who says you are not allowed to defend yourself in the UK?

As to the differance in murder rates, I would assume that a country with a higher rate of people would also have a higer rate of murders wouldn't you.

Sounds like you need a stats class sweetheart. :) A higher rate of people? lol

There are stiff penalties for using a weapon as well.



You have my sympathies



Not sure of the exact situation but if they were in their flat I imagine there were plenty of kitchen knives and other ad hoc weapons easily to hand.

I doubt they were playing on their PSPs in the kitchen! lol

Although note the rest of the statement's text. If you picked up a knife in your home to defend yourself, the CPS probably wouldn't charge you, as long as your life was in genuine danger. However, if you were carrying a knife prior to the incident, you might be charged with carrying a concealed weapon, or something similar.

Correct, unless you had a valid reason for carrying a knife, e.g., for work.

Although note the rest of the statement's text. If you picked up a knife in your home to defend yourself, the CPS probably wouldn't charge you, as long as your life was in genuine danger. However, if you were carrying a knife prior to the incident, you might be charged with carrying a concealed weapon, or something similar.
That's what I have a problem with. What about unconcealed?

That's what I have a problem with. What about unconcealed?
Carrying a knife in plain view in a public place, without having a necessary reason to do so (such as being a gardener, perhaps), will likely get you into trouble with the po-po.

That's what I have a problem with. What about unconcealed?

You'd probably get harassed by the police for carrying around a knife, it's just not something you generally see.

Carrying a knife in plain view in a public place, without having a necessary reason to do so (such as being a gardener, perhaps), will likely get you into trouble with the po-po.
You'd probably get harassed by the police for carrying around a knife, it's just not something you generally see.
*Sigh* No weapons allowed for self-defense unconcealed OR concealed. Now I really do have a problem with the UK.

*Sigh* No weapons allowed for self-defense unconcealed OR concealed.
Yes, because it's an extreme aberration to be confronted by a weapon in the UK today, as seen by how much discussion and media has been directed at the stabbings of teenagers in London in the last few years.

Most folks simply don't need a weapon to feel safe, and from my point of view, it's rather sad if someone does feel they need to be armed to be safe.

Now I really do have a problem with the UK.
Why? Do you need to carry a weapon to feel safe? Do you feel unsafe in a country where weapons aren't needed for the most part?

Yes, because it's an extreme aberration to be confronted by a weapon in the UK today, as seen by how much discussion and media has been directed at the stabbings of teenagers in London in the last few years.

Most folks simply don't need a weapon to feel safe, and from my point of view, it's rather sad if someone does feel they need to be armed to be safe.


Why? Do you need to carry a weapon to feel safe? Do you feel unsafe in a country where weapons aren't needed for the most part?
A country where weapons aren't needed for the most part. Ha! Well, when the UK's violent crime rate drops to 1 per 10,000, I'll admit weapons aren't needed for self-defense there, okay?

Stab vests? I would rather have bullet proof vests...But whatever, the Police might be killed closed range over a far away I guess...

A country where weapons aren't needed for the most part. Ha!
No 'Ha!' about it.

Apart from a few areas of industrialised UK, especially around London (and unfortunately, centred around young, poor black men), violent crime isn't prevalent. Most folks simply don't carry weapons. Most folks simply don't want to.

Stab vests? I would rather have bullet proof vests...But whatever, the Police might be killed closed range over a far away I guess...
The police aren't the ones getting the vests.

A country where weapons aren't needed for the most part. Ha! Well, when the UK's violent crime rate drops to 1 per 10,000, I'll admit weapons aren't needed for self-defense there, okay?

Dude, read the thread. Specifically this post:

Crime Statistics > Murders with firearms (most recent) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms)Showing latest available data.
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people
#2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
#3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
#4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
#5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
#6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
#7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
#8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
#9 Uruguay: 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
#10 Lithuania: 0.0230748 per 1,000 people
#11 Slovakia: 0.021543 per 1,000 people
#12 Czech Republic: 0.0207988 per 1,000 people
#13 Estonia: 0.0157539 per 1,000 people
#14 Latvia: 0.0131004 per 1,000 people
#15 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0127139 per 1,000 people
#16 Bulgaria: 0.00845638 per 1,000 people
#17 Portugal: 0.00795003 per 1,000 people
#18 Slovenia: 0.00596718 per 1,000 people
#19 Switzerland: 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
#20 Canada: 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
#21 Germany: 0.00465844 per 1,000 people
#22 Moldova: 0.00448934 per 1,000 people
#23 Hungary: 0.00439692 per 1,000 people
#24 Poland: 0.0043052 per 1,000 people
#25 Ukraine: 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
#26 Ireland: 0.00298805 per 1,000 people
#27 Australia: 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
#28 Denmark: 0.00257732 per 1,000 people
#29 Spain: 0.0024045 per 1,000 people
#30 Azerbaijan: 0.00227503 per 1,000 people
#31 New Zealand: 0.00173482 per 1,000 people
#32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people

The UK has a gun crime rate of 0.01 per 10,000. If we decide that gun crimes is ten times the rate of gun crimes, it's still far less than your benchmark.I'm waiting for your admission that weapons aren't needed there.

*Sigh* No weapons allowed for self-defense unconcealed OR concealed. Now I really do have a problem with the UK.

Erm, you walk down any main street in most Western countries with a blade dangling in plain view from your side - you're going to get stopped by the police - UK or no UK.

Alternative statistics, firearm homicide rates:

USA: 3.98
Italy: 0.81
Switzerland: 0.50
Canada: 0.4
Finland: 0.35
Australia: 0.24
France: 0.21
England/Wales: 0.15
(Per 100,000 people. Source: Kings College London)

Thankfully gun crime remains rare in this country
Firearm offences were up 4% in 2007 to 9,967, although gun death numbers fell.

The government said the figures were "excellent" but Liberal Democrats and Tories called for action on gun crime.

The rise in firearm-related crimes meant there was an increase of 373 offences on the 2006 total, where such offences were concerned.

However, gun deaths fell to 49, seven fewer than in the previous 12 months.

The figures also revealed reductions in a number of types of crime.

Recorded robberies fell by 21%, serious violence was down by 15% and there was a 19% reduction in car crime.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7364467.stm

Professor Dennis Hayes, said the issue of knife crime in schools was being over-played.

"Statistically there is no increase in knife crime generally - so why is it such a significant issue?"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7457616.stm

Dude, read the thread. Specifically this post:



The UK has a gun crime rate of 0.01 per 10,000. If we decide that gun crimes is ten times the rate of gun crimes, it's still far less than your benchmark.I'm waiting for your admission that weapons aren't needed there.
Did you read the post? Did you even read what I quoted? VIOLENT CRIME! Not gun crime, VIOLENT CRIME!. Understand now?

Erm, you walk down any main street in most Western countries with a blade dangling in plain view from your side - you're going to get stopped by the police - UK or no UK.
The way they worded it, I thought it was illegal. And I've seen people here in my town walk right past an officer with a knife in plain view and not get stopped.

CM: Just out of curiosity, where do you live?

Did you read the post? Did you even read what I quoted? VIOLENT CRIME! Not gun crime, VIOLENT CRIME!. Understand now?

Crime Statistics > Adults prosecuted (per capita) (most recent) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_adu_pro_percap-crime-adults-prosecuted-per-capita)
Showing latest available data.
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 United States: 48.029 per 1,000 people
#2 Finland: 31.6349 per 1,000 people
#3 New Zealand: 31.059 per 1,000 people
#4 Turkey: 29.5727 per 1,000 people
#5 United Kingdom: 24.8958 per 1,000 people
#6 Korea, South: 24.5982 per 1,000 people
#7 Slovenia: 11.5251 per 1,000 people
#8 Canada: 11.5125 per 1,000 people
#9 Hungary: 11.1701 per 1,000 people
#10 Netherlands: 10.7919 per 1,000 people
#11 Croatia: 10.1168 per 1,000 people
#12 Portugal: 10.0978 per 1,000 people
#13 Czech Republic: 9.98438 per 1,000 people
#14 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 9.88753 per 1,000 people
#15 Thailand: 8.91289 per 1,000 people
#16 Estonia: 8.53488 per 1,000 people
#17 Germany: 6.89863 per 1,000 people
#18 Latvia: 6.66157 per 1,000 people
#19 Belarus: 6.0199 per 1,000 people
#20 Slovakia: 5.98472 per 1,000 people
#21 Bulgaria: 5.82282 per 1,000 people
#22 Zimbabwe: 4.51723 per 1,000 people
#23 Kyrgyzstan: 4.15332 per 1,000 people
#24 Hong Kong: 3.69532 per 1,000 people
#25 Romania: 2.73896 per 1,000 people
#26 Norway: 2.61463 per 1,000 people
#27 Cyprus: 1.88429 per 1,000 people
#28 Georgia: 1.48813 per 1,000 people
#29 Japan: 1.14484 per 1,000 people
#30 France: 0.893959 per 1,000 people
#31 Mexico: 0.600021 per 1,000 people
#32 Papua New Guinea: 0.187737 per 1,000 people
#33 Zambia: 0.0222873 per 1,000 people

Crime Statistics > Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita)Showing latest available data.
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people
#26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
#27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people
#28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people
#29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people
#30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
#31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
#32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people
#33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
#34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people
#35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people
#36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people
#37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people
#38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
#39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
#40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
#41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
#42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
#45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
#47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
#48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
#49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
#50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
#51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
#52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
#53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
#54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
#55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
#56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
#57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
#58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
#59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
#60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
#62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people

Crime Statistics > Assaults (per capita) (most recent) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita)
Showing latest available data.
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 South Africa: 12.0752 per 1,000 people
#2 Montserrat: 10.2773 per 1,000 people
#3 Mauritius: 8.76036 per 1,000 people
#4 Seychelles: 8.62196 per 1,000 people
#5 Zimbabwe: 7.6525 per 1,000 people
#6 United States: 7.56923 per 1,000 people
#7 New Zealand: 7.47881 per 1,000 people
#8 United Kingdom: 7.45959 per 1,000 people
#9 Canada: 7.11834 per 1,000 people
#10 Australia: 7.02459 per 1,000 people
#11 Finland: 5.32644 per 1,000 people
#12 Iceland: 4.66406 per 1,000 people
#13 Tunisia: 4.02561 per 1,000 people
#14 Jamaica: 3.95943 per 1,000 people
#15 Portugal: 3.59445 per 1,000 people
#16 Chile: 3.32476 per 1,000 people
#17 Norway: 3.2064 per 1,000 people
#18 Netherlands: 2.68964 per 1,000 people
#19 Ireland: 2.47037 per 1,000 people
#20 Mexico: 2.40275 per 1,000 people
#21 Spain: 2.24221 per 1,000 people
#22 Czech Republic: 2.14803 per 1,000 people
#23 Zambia: 1.96475 per 1,000 people
#24 Denmark: 1.80339 per 1,000 people
#25 France: 1.75554 per 1,000 people
#26 Germany: 1.4183 per 1,000 people
#27 Uruguay: 1.34192 per 1,000 people
#28 Hungary: 1.11532 per 1,000 people
#29 Slovenia: 1.09796 per 1,000 people
#30 Hong Kong: 1.07987 per 1,000 people
#31 Dominica: 1.01407 per 1,000 people
#32 Poland: 0.850459 per 1,000 people
#33 Turkey: 0.76779 per 1,000 people
#34 Slovakia: 0.686982 per 1,000 people
#35 Colombia: 0.587116 per 1,000 people
#36 Belarus: 0.543689 per 1,000 people
#37 Italy: 0.500284 per 1,000 people
#38 Romania: 0.419615 per 1,000 people
#39 Bulgaria: 0.41396 per 1,000 people
#40 Qatar: 0.378888 per 1,000 people
#41 Latvia: 0.360262 per 1,000 people
#42 Estonia: 0.345086 per 1,000 people
#43 Japan: 0.339272 per 1,000 people
#44 Thailand: 0.313542 per 1,000 people
#45 Greece: 0.311399 per 1,000 people
#46 Korea, South: 0.30684 per 1,000 people
#47 Moldova: 0.272952 per 1,000 people
#48 Papua New Guinea: 0.243643 per 1,000 people
#49 India: 0.218755 per 1,000 people
#50 Costa Rica: 0.178287 per 1,000 people
#51 Saudi Arabia: 0.178098 per 1,000 people
#52 Ukraine: 0.112007 per 1,000 people
#53 Georgia: 0.10434 per 1,000 people
#54 Indonesia: 0.0767107 per 1,000 people
#55 Yemen: 0.0489699 per 1,000 people
#56 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0404197 per 1,000 people
#57 Azerbaijan: 0.0252781 per 1,000 people

Crime Statistics > Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita)
Showing latest available data.
Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
#2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
#3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
#4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
#5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
#6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
#7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
#8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
#9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
#10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people
#11 Papua New Guinea: 0.233544 per 1,000 people
#12 New Zealand: 0.213383 per 1,000 people
#13 United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000 people
#14 Spain: 0.140403 per 1,000 people
#15 France: 0.139442 per 1,000 people
#16 Korea, South: 0.12621 per 1,000 people
#17 Mexico: 0.122981 per 1,000 people
#18 Norway: 0.120836 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica: 0.118277 per 1,000 people
#20 Venezuela: 0.115507 per 1,000 people
#21 Finland: 0.110856 per 1,000 people
#22 Netherlands: 0.100445 per 1,000 people
#23 Denmark: 0.0914948 per 1,000 people
#24 Germany: 0.0909731 per 1,000 people
#25 Bulgaria: 0.0795973 per 1,000 people
#26 Chile: 0.0782179 per 1,000 people
#27 Thailand: 0.0626305 per 1,000 people
#28 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0623785 per 1,000 people
#29 Poland: 0.062218 per 1,000 people
#30 Sri Lanka: 0.0599053 per 1,000 people
#31 Hungary: 0.0588588 per 1,000 people
#32 Estonia: 0.0547637 per 1,000 people
#33 Ireland: 0.0542829 per 1,000 people
#34 Switzerland: 0.0539458 per 1,000 people
#35 Belarus: 0.0514563 per 1,000 people
#36 Uruguay: 0.0512295 per 1,000 people
#37 Lithuania: 0.0508757 per 1,000 people
#38 Malaysia: 0.0505156 per 1,000 people
#39 Romania: 0.0497089 per 1,000 people
#40 Czech Republic: 0.0488234 per 1,000 people
#41 Russia: 0.0486543 per 1,000 people
#42 Latvia: 0.0454148 per 1,000 people
#43 Moldova: 0.0448934 per 1,000 people
#44 Colombia: 0.0433254 per 1,000 people
#45 Slovenia: 0.0427648 per 1,000 people
#46 Italy: 0.0402045 per 1,000 people
#47 Portugal: 0.0364376 per 1,000 people
#48 Tunisia: 0.0331514 per 1,000 people
#49 Zambia: 0.0266383 per 1,000 people
#50 Ukraine: 0.0244909 per 1,000 people
#51 Slovakia: 0.0237525 per 1,000 people
#52 Mauritius: 0.0219334 per 1,000 people
#53 Turkey: 0.0180876 per 1,000 people
#54 Japan: 0.017737 per 1,000 people
#55 Hong Kong: 0.0150746 per 1,000 people
#56 India: 0.0143187 per 1,000 people
#57 Qatar: 0.0139042 per 1,000 people
#58 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0132029 per 1,000 people
#59 Greece: 0.0106862 per 1,000 people
#60 Georgia: 0.0100492 per 1,000 people
#61 Armenia: 0.00938652 per 1,000 people
#62 Indonesia: 0.00567003 per 1,000 people
#63 Yemen: 0.0038597 per 1,000 people
#64 Azerbaijan: 0.00379171 per 1,000 people
#65 Saudi Arabia: 0.00329321 per 1,000 people

Fine then, tell me: What is 'reasonable force'?

I guess that comes down to a case by case basis and is dependant on the ammount of force coming your way.


Woah, woah, woah, since when did I say anything about vengeance? You can say my opinion makes me "look thick", but I could say the same of your opinion. Especially when you start saying things that have little relation to what I actually said. I talked about self-defense, and you start talking about vengeance, and how I'm creating a cycle with it.

No what I actulay said was that the 'mindset' which you seem to be engaged in, is one of the causes for the kind of violence we are currently seeing on UK streets, and one that is self perpetuating, the revange aspect was an exmple of the kind of thought that this mindset engaes in. I never mentioned you personaly except to say that you seem to have this mindset.


You can take your chances with a peaceful way, but man, as a race, is neither peaceful, nor reasonable. Also, stabbing a man in the gut in self-defense, is not going up to some random guy "ZOMG! YOUR GONNA STAB ME!!!!11!!!1" and shoving a blade into his gut, it's finding yourself confronted by someone with a knife who is about to shove a knife up your gut. Choices, choices, my life, or a ten-year stay in jail for him...

And that is a fine example of the 'mindset' I mean. I simply do not see things that way, and frankly to feel that scared over things that may happen must be more of a hinderance to life than an aid?

There are always other ways, and I would rather exhaust them first, and even after all that if it comes down to violence, I would not be plungeing a knife into somebodies gut, wouldn't that make me as bad as them?

Sounds like you need a stats class sweetheart. :) A higher rate of people? lol

Meh you know what I mean.:D

I guess that comes down to a case by case basis and is dependent on the amount of force coming your way.

As I said before in the thread, the definition of "reasonable force" and the rules for self-defense are very different in the UK than they are in most American jurisdictions.

By most comparisons, your self-defense rights in the UK are severely limited compared to those in the US (in most places).

In Texas, for example, you can defend your neighbor's property if you have a prior arrangement, and if in so doing the burglars attack you, you can shoot them dead, even if they are armed only with crowbars. You have no obligation to retreat. And the relatives and friends of the dead burglars cannot sue you - you have complete civil immunity as long as the police find it to be a good shooting. No trial can be expected if the police find it was a good shooting. It is all considered "reasonable force" and "self-defense".

In the UK, a comparable action would get you life in prison, at the very least.

As I said before in the thread, the definition of "reasonable force" and the rules for self-defense are very different in the UK than they are in most American jurisdictions.

By most comparisons, your self-defense rights in the UK are severely limited compared to those in the US (in most places).

In Texas, for example, you can defend your neighbor's property if you have a prior arrangement, and if in so doing the burglars attack you, you can shoot them dead, even if they are armed only with crowbars. You have no obligation to retreat. And the relatives and friends of the dead burglars cannot sue you - you have complete civil immunity as long as the police find it to be a good shooting. No trial can be expected if the police find it was a good shooting. It is all considered "reasonable force" and "self-defense".

In the UK, a comparable action would get you life in prison, at the very least.


And that is really scary. I don't see how this is a limitation, it sounds like a good thing to me.

It comes down to the right to life, which everybody should enjoy. If it is not on for a man to take my life, then the same should be applicable to every human, shouldn't it?

And that is really scary. I don't see how this is a limitation, it sounds like a good thing to me.

It comes down to the right to life, which everybody should enjoy. If it is not on for a man to take my life, then the same should be applicable to every human, shouldn't it?

In most cases in the US, there has to be a reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm. Two men armed with crowbars can reasonably (in the US) be expected to kill you if you fail to stop them. I would imagine in the UK they would actually have to be beating you (and not just advancing on you and making threats) which leaves the very real possibility that you will be dead long before "defending" anything.

In the US, your life is regarded as more valuable than any attacker. And where the line is drawn on "imminent bodily harm" is closer to the person under threat (in the US) than it is in the UK.

In most cases in the US, there has to be a reasonable fear of imminent bodily harm. Two men armed with crowbars can reasonably (in the US) be expected to kill you if you fail to stop them. I would imagine in the UK they would actually have to be beating you (and not just advancing on you and making threats) which leaves the very real possibility that you will be dead long before "defending" anything.

You would be wrong.

Does the law protect me? What is 'reasonable force'?

Anyone can use reasonable force to protect themselves or others, or to carry out an arrest or to prevent crime. You are not expected to make fine judgements over the level of force you use in the heat of the moment. So long as you only do what you honestly and instinctively believe is necessary in the heat of the moment, that would be the strongest evidence of you acting lawfully and in selfdefence. This is still the case if you use something to hand as a weapon.

As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more force you can lawfully use in self-defence.

[Does householders] have to wait to be attacked?

No, not if you are in your own home and in fear for yourself or others. In those circumstances the law does not require you to wait to be attacked before using defensive force yourself.
Link (http://www.cps.gov.uk/Publications/prosecution/householders.html)

CM: Just out of curiosity, where do you live?
Largest town in Western Maryland. (A town of about 20,000 people). Still, I've seen that in Baltimore several times also.

*Snip*
Haven't we already discussed how statistics are worthless because of the difference in how each country counts it's crimes?

Haven't we already discussed how statistics are worthless because of the difference in how each country counts it's crimes?

Only between the UK and the US. Who knows how the rest keep count? And how big the difference really is?

Several studies seem to think the numbers can be compared.

Haven't we already discussed how statistics are worthless because of the difference in how each country counts it's crimes?
That seems like a very easy way to stick to your position, without having to discuss the statistics.

Besides, the first statistics appears to discussing the number of trials that occur, everywhere, not just the single rate that get's reported by the police to the public about crime rates.

Haven't we already discussed how statistics are worthless because of the difference in how each country counts it's crimes?

What if the source, as in this case, is a UN report?
One of the "United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems" reports actually?

What may work in Britain is unlikely to work in America. A much larger land mass and population to cover, and you can't erase the knowledge of gunsmiths
Does anyone know of gun laws in Russia, China or India and how effective they are?

As for the latter, Internet makes gunsmithing available to masses. ;)
Guns are just a symptom of the problem as I have pointed out.
You're right - It's the culture behind the gun that's the problem, not the guns themselves.

How the gun is valued is also important: Is it a tool for recrational or law enforcement use or Sacred Object of Power which most gun proponents seem to think it is. :rolleyes:

Sacred Object of Power which most gun proponents seem to think it is. :rolleyes:

*takes gun*

I HAVE DAH POWAAAHH!

*clicks*

*nothing happens*

Oops. Guess not.

:p

What if the source, as in this case, is a UN report?
One of the "United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems" reports actually?

Not to mention that the statistics on the rate of convictions surely would be comparable.

Not to mention that the statistics on the rate of convictions surely would be comparable.

Meh, its the usual "The studies/data I point to are good. The studies/data you point to are failed" argument. He didn't even look in the data I gave.

He just assumed that I'm for banishing firearms and so my data is flawed.

Haven't we already discussed how statistics are worthless because of the difference in how each country counts it's crimes?

Did you look at the metodology of the study I linked to? Statistics are usually worthless when they come from different sources with different methodologies. Otherwise they are perfectly sound.