NationStates Jolt Archive

Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak has ordered the army to prepare to demolish the home of the Palestinian who killed three Israelis in Jerusalem.

So despite the fact this guy acted alone, wasn't connected with religious fundamentalists or terrorist groups, wasn't known to be linked locally with anything illegal - his house is to be destroyed... and people still live there.

The order follows advice by Attorney-General Menachem Mazuz that the proposed demolition could create legal difficulties, but would not be illegal.
An Israeli rights group has said such a move would be collective punishment.
B'tselem says it has written to Mr Mazuz demanding that he prevent the attacker's home from being demolished.

The group argues that the demolition would, as collective punishment, be illegal under international humanitarian law.
Hussam Dwayat went on the rampage at the wheel of a front-loader vehicle, or bulldozer, killing three people and wounding dozens before security personnel shot him dead.

Reports say about 20 people live in the home of the attacker Hussam Dwayat in the Sur Bahir area of East Jerusalem. They all insist that they had no prior knowledge of his intentions.
The Israeli authorities have said that Dwayat acted alone and was not connected to any Palestinian militant group.
When the authorities themselves say he acted alone, and reports say there are people living in the house properly - you think this would warrant no action.

This is despicable and completely unnecessary. What's the point? :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7490212.stm

The way the Israeli government acts they should be glad they're being warned and not just having their whole block leveled by missile attack.

I'm not suprised. If a Palestinian steals candy from a store it's called terrorism.

Jews're just a hateful tribe.

Jews're just a hateful tribe.

Aren't there twelve tribes? Also racism isn't very helpful, or rational.

a house that Palestinians live in....in Jerusalem...and it is still standing?

no wonder they are using a lone crazy as an excuse to knock it down...

Disgusting. What possible justice, what possible good can come out of destroying someone's HOUSE?

"Ha-ha! Now there is one less house in Palestine! Take THAT, real estate development!"

Jews're just a hateful tribe.

This would be unlike your own 'tribe,' which is so clearly full of compassion and understanding.

To all you who didn't read the article.

The house is in East Jerusalem.

East Jerusalem has many many many Palestinians living in it.

Melphi, that's why there is a house in Jerusalem with Palestinians in it.

Trostia, the house is not in Palestine, but in Jerusalem, which is infact part of Israel.

Anyway, this is collective punishment.

Israel will make it so the cost of killing one Israeli is too great a toll for Palestinians to take. :)

IIRC this is standard practice in Israeli counterterrorism. Apparently it's the best solution they've found for deterring suicide attacks. Draw from that whatever conclusions you will.

Anyway, this is collective punishment.


You approve of punishing innocent people for the crime of another?

IIRC this is standard practice in Israeli counterterrorism. Apparently it's the best solution they've found for deterring suicide attacks. Draw from that whatever conclusions you will.

The authorities said he wasn't in any way connected to terrorism.

Jews're just a hateful tribe.

No, this isn't about the jews. This is about the Israeli government ignoring and breaking human rights yet again, and authorizing collective punishment for an apparent suicide-by-Israeli-security-forces which nobody could have stopped. This will only backfire on Israel.

IIRC this is standard practice in Israeli counterterrorism. Apparently it's the best solution they've found for deterring suicide attacks. Draw from that whatever conclusions you will.

An actual suicide attack would have killed more than 3 and injured significantly more people. This was the case of a man going postal and rampaging with a bulldozer. The fact that despite official government ruling it was a Lone Postal Attack, Ehud Barak calling for the man's house to be levelled is not "counterterrorism." It's Collective Punishment for Guilt By Association and Ethnicity.

Trostia, the house is not in Palestine, but in Jerusalem, which is infact part of Israel.


That totally makes a difference to my point.


Anyway, this is collective punishment.

Israel will make it so the cost of killing one Israeli is too great a toll for Palestinians to take. :)

Yeah, the Nazis used the same strategy. How sad that you're approving, nay, grinning about Nazi-esque strategies of oppression and mindless injustice. Sad, but predictable and very fitting with your character.

East Jerusalem has many many many Palestinians living in it.

Melphi, that's why there is a house in Jerusalem with Palestinians in it.

Didn't know the lay out, but it doesn't do anything to stop the though that they are just using a lone crazy who, they even point out, was not connected to any groups nor had any accomplices as an excuse to tear down a palestinian home.

Anyway, this is collective punishment.

which by their own laws is illegal.

Israel will make it so the cost of killing one Israeli is too great a toll for Palestinians to take. :)

Which they will never achieve. just as the Palestinians will never achieve it. They will fight until at least one side is no longer existing.

That totally makes a difference to my point.



Yeah, the Nazis used the same strategy. How sad that you're approving, nay, grinning about Nazi-esque strategies of oppression and mindless injustice. Sad, but predictable and very fitting with your character.

The man loved Pinochet. Are you honestly surprised about this? He probably thinks all Muslims are Leftists too.

Yeah, the Nazis used the same strategy. How sad that you're approving, nay, grinning about Nazi-esque strategies of oppression and mindless injustice. Sad, but predictable and very fitting with your character.


GODWIN'S LAW (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/exitjmouse/GodwinsLaw_CatPoster.jpg)

GODWIN'S LAW (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/exitjmouse/GodwinsLaw_CatPoster.jpg)

The Nazis practically invented collective punishment, which is exactly what this is, and exactly what TAI said.

So yeah, thanks for your awesome ability to blurt out GODWINS LAW LOL whenever you see discussion about Nazism, but it's meaningless and irrelevant and frankly, god damned annoying.

Oh, that's what I get for not reading carefully. If they decided it wasn't terrorism, then this is (just fucking stupid/even more fucking stupid than it otherwise would have been).

Oh, that's what I get for not reading carefully. If they decided it wasn't terrorism, then this is (just fucking stupid/even more fucking stupid than it otherwise would have been).

The way Israel applies Collective Punishment on Palestinians for just about anything is bad. Especially when it reminds me of a funny Far Side strip where someone is studying veterinary medicine and comes upon the section on horses. And the prescription for every problem listed is "Shoot the Horse."

I would be disturbed if there was a similar section in the Defense Ministry's handbook:

Terrorist attack: Bulldoze the Palestinian's House
Lone Palestinian goes on rampage: Bulldoze the Palestinian's House
Palestian Jaywalker: Bulldoze the Palestinian's House
Palestinian double-parks: Bulldoze the Palestinian's House
Palestinian's dog poops on public street: Bulldoze the Palestinian's House

So on and so forth.

Trostia, the house is not in Palestine, but in Jerusalem, which is infact part of Israel.

No, its in Arab East Jerusalem, which is considered occupied territory by the international community. They should have pointed that out to you on your school trip there.

Anyway, this is collective punishment.

Israel will make it so the cost of killing one Israeli is too great a toll for Palestinians to take.

Funny, because the ex chief of staff of the IDF thought it counter-productive, and it hasn't worked so far.

The Nazis practically invented collective punishment, which is exactly what this is, and exactly what TAI said.

So yeah, thanks for your awesome ability to blurt out GODWINS LAW LOL whenever you see discussion about Nazism, but it's meaningless and irrelevant and frankly, god damned annoying.

I saw more of a claim that jews are acting like nazis rather than any actual discussion of nazis.

I saw more of a claim that jews are acting like nazis rather than any actual discussion of nazis.

Considering Israel was founded on the basis of giving Jews a refuge from the Nazis in the first place, this could be considered as solid evidence of how abuse spreads like a zombie virus amongst victims.

And the Israeli government (note the emphasis) wonders why they can't quash terrorism in the West Bank and Gaza (even if the home was in East Jerusalem, it still belonged to a Palestinian, hence it's part of the "cause"). If they didn't use nukes to swat flies, they'd get more sympathy. They'd only fuel terrorism by destroying the home. The people who lived there would want to strike back, as they would have been punished through no fault of their own.

No, its in Arab East Jerusalem, which is considered occupied territory by the international community. They should have pointed that out to you on your school trip there.
I didn't go there on a school trip? Do you just make up stuff as you go along...?

East Jerusalem was taken illegal by Jordan and the Arabs in their illegal declaration of war against the U.N. mandate state of Israel and Jerusalem.

Illegal.

East Jerusalem was conquered by Israel in the six day war where Egypt called on all Arab nations to attack Israel. Israel defended off these nations and expanded itself. It was a war of self defense where they turned out to be the victor. Legit.

Since then it has been part of Israel, goverened by Israel and incorporated into Israel.

Jerusalem, united as one city, is now the capital of Israel. Whether nations outside of Israel see it as such is regardless, given that it functions as Israel's capital and is thus, by definition, a capital.

I saw more of a claim that jews are acting like nazis rather than any actual discussion of nazis.

I never mentioned "jews" at all. I am merely saying collective punishment is a disgusting, unjust and Nazi-esque 'strategy' for oppressing a people.

Which it is.

I didn't go (.....) capital.

Doesn't make a shit of a difference....

Since June 28 1967, East Jerusalem has been under the law, jurisdiction, and administration of the State of Israel.[10] The right of Israel to declare sovereignty over the entirety of Jerusalem is not recognized by the international community, which regarded the move as de facto annexation [11] and deemed Israeli jurisdiction invalid in a subsequent non-binding United Nations General Assembly resolution.[12] However in a reply to the resolution, Israel denied that her measures constitute annexation.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem

..they occupy it, its not part of Israel.

Doesn't make a shit of a difference....
Oh I've been there..just not on a school trip. Just wanted to point out that you make shit up "just cuz". :)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem

..they occupy it, its not part of Israel.
Oh it is part of Israel, regardless of what the U.N. says.

In 1980, the Knesset passed the Jerusalem Law which declared that "Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel"[1], however, without specifying boundaries.
If it looks, functions, and is the capital of Israel, as stated by the Israeli parliament, then it must be the capital. National law is still valid, regardless of if the international community accepts it. For example, let's say the international community didn't accept Bush's victory in the 2000 election. That's fine, but as he still became president the reality of the situation is that he'd still be president, regardless of what the international community "refuses to believe".

Same priniciple.

Israel defend itself and profited off a war called against them. Excuse me while I go cry my eyes out for the losers of a war that the losers called for.

that will learn them for not joining in the killing!

The Nazis practically invented collective punishment, which is exactly what this is, and exactly what TAI said.

how dare you snub Italians like that!

East Jerusalem was conquered by Israel in the six day war

wait so wars of conquest are legal now? :eek:

Israel defend itself and profited off a war called against them. Excuse me while I go cry my eyes out for the losers of a war that the losers called for.

you do realize the funny of when the Jews do it don't you?

If it looks, functions, and is the capital of Israel, as stated by the Israeli parliament, then it must be the capital. National law is still valid, regardless of if the international community accepts it. For example, let's say the international community didn't accept Bush's victory in the 2000 election. That's fine, but as he still became president the reality of the situation is that he'd still be president, regardless of what the international community "refuses to believe".

You're essentially saying it's OK to be an international criminal as long as you have the force to make it work. De facto being more just than de jure.

Idiotic.

Israel defend itself and profited off a war called against them. Excuse me while I go cry my eyes out for the losers of a war that the losers called for.

You can go cry your eyes out for the Jews who died in the Holocaust. They were just losers of a war that they declared on Germany. Might makes right and law is irrelevant, right?

Too bad International Law ruled *against* the Nazis, and hanged them. Might does NOT make right. You go on playing tough guy; you can play tough guy who is also grossly wrong on this issue.

Oh I've been there..just not on a school trip. Just wanted to point out that you make shit up "just cuz". :).

"....Shit of a difference" refers to whether or not they've been running Arab East Jerusalem pertaining to their right to same. "School trip" is a derisory reference to your occassionally referred to 'Grand Tour'. Its precise nature is unknown to me.



Oh it is part of Israel, regardless of what the U.N. says.:).

The UN, EU, etc. In fact no soverign nation on Earth, except Israel, recognises it, as far as I'm aware.


If it looks, functions, and is the capital of Israel, as stated by the Israeli parliament, then it must be the capital..

If Kuwait looks, functions as and is a province of Iraq, as stated by the Iraqi parliament, then it must a province.

And the Israeli government (note the emphasis) wonders why they can't quash terrorism in the West Bank and Gaza (even if the home was in East Jerusalem, it still belonged to a Palestinian, hence it's part of the "cause"). If they didn't use nukes to swat flies, they'd get more sympathy. They'd only fuel terrorism by destroying the home. The people who lived there would want to strike back, as they would have been punished through no fault of their own.

The Israeli government has a nasty tendency to overreact. It only adds fuel to the fire.

If it looks, functions, and is the capital of Israel, as stated by the Israeli parliament, then it must be the capital. National law is still valid, regardless of if the international community accepts it. For example, let's say the international community didn't accept Bush's victory in the 2000 election. That's fine, but as he still became president the reality of the situation is that he'd still be president, regardless of what the international community "refuses to believe".

Same priniciple.
That's bullshit.

It's not the same principle at all. Nationstates have jurisdiction inside their internationally recognized borders, and it follows by the principle of national sovereignty that national legislation is not dependant on international acceptance.

However, you're suggesting occupation by national legislation, meaning you would let national law trump international law when it comes to borders and states. It does not work that way. If the US pass a law that states that Belgium now is the 51st state, that law would not be valid as far as the Belgians - and the world - is concerned.

And by that principle, Israel cannot unilaterally move borders, and it's only in their collective imaginations - and yours, it seems - that the status of Jerusalem is solved.

"....Shit of a difference" refers...
I didn't read past there. You were wrong and I just pointed it out. The world keeps on spinning.



The UN, EU, etc. In fact no soverign nation on Earth, except Israel, recognises it, as far as I'm aware.
Hmm..wrong again, in fact. A quick read of Wiki-Israel article shows that the capital is Jerusalem. Knowing that Wiki is not totally reliable, I take a quick look at what I use for nation-refrences, the CIA World Factbook, which tells me that the capital is indeed Jerusalem, but gives a note that most nations keep their embassy in Tel Aviv. Checking other sources such as an online atlas and encyclopedia show Jerusalem also *suprise suprise* as the capital. You lose.

If Kuwait looks, functions as and is a province of Iraq, as stated by the Iraqi parliament, then it must a province.
If Kuwait and other arab nations decided to attack Iraq to wipe it off the map, during which Iraq defended itself from destruction and in the process took over Kuwait, then yes it would be a province. However, although alternate history is fun, this is not the reality of the situation with Kuwait. Would you like a history lesson on it? I'll have to charge though.

Hmm..wrong (.....) though.

More irrelevant wank. Arab East Jerusalem is not part of Israel. The other section can indeed be the capital of Israel, but not the whole city. Please feel free to keep screaming "Nyaah, Nyaah" though. There is always the chance reality will fracture and you can stop blocking it out, at some stage....

More irrelevant wank. Arab East Jerusalem is not part of Israel. The other section can indeed be the capital of Israel, but not the whole city. Please feel free to keep screaming "Nyaah, Nyaah" though. There is always the chance reality will fracture and you can stop blocking it out, at some stage....

Yes, reality is certinaly "fracturing" me when credible global sources such as world factbooks, atlas and encyclopedia tell me that Jerusalem is indeed the capital.

If that's not reality, then what is? Youre [wrong] opinion trying to tell me how it is on an internet forum?

Debate this:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html

Yes, reality is certinaly "fracturing" me when credible global sources such as world factbooks, atlas and encyclopedia [/url]

You mean the ones you quote (and that out of context).

More semantics and wankery. Arab East Jerusalem is not part of Israel. The part of Jerusalem thats Israeli territory they can declare what they want, but to say "Jerusalem" meaning the entire is not correct, nor can it be until the UNSC pass a resolution recognising it as such.

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/a39a906c89d3e98685256c29006d4014!OpenDocument

Brothers and sisters of NSG, let us be calm.
Ha, who am I kidding. That isn't happening.

Historically, Jerusalem isn't part of any country. As a matter of fact, insofar as the U.N. is concerned according the Partrition plan of 1948, Jerusalem is held by Palestine, which would have been the state for, well, palestinians...except they rejected it because they believed that all the Jews would be killed/removed in a matter of days.
Shame it didn't work out when the arab countries-being Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon (though they did very little), Egypt, and Yemen-invaded the new state and, well, lost. Needless to say, this left poor Jerusalem adrift, where it was happily picked up by Jordan (again, an illegal takeover) and was again taken over in 1967 by the Israelis (yet another legaly questionable move)
So that is just to clarify all the crap about Jerusalem belonging to this, them, or the other guy.

(My source is The History of the Middle Easy Wars, by John Westwood. It is unique in the way that it manages to not show bias on a very touchy subject)

Ahem. As for the actual question at hand, it is a really, really bad mistake. Retribution raids worked well in the early years of Israel's history because the Fedayeen attacks were sponsored by arab governments. Not so much any more...it just pisses people off.

One other thing, and this isn't directed at anybody in particular...lets stop with the "Violent Jews" horseshit. It offends me, because I'm a Jew, and I DON'T CONDONE THE VIOLENCE. And I appreciate the people who have stressed that it is the Israeli government, and not Israelis as a whole.

Brothers and sisters of NSG, let us be calm.
Ha, who am I kidding. That isn't happening.

Historically, Jerusalem isn't part of any country. As a matter of fact, insofar as the U.N. is concerned according the Partrition plan of 1948, Jerusalem is held by Palestine, which would have been the state for, well, palestinians...except they rejected it because they believed that all the Jews would be killed/removed in a matter of days.
Shame it didn't work out when the arab countries-being Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon (though they did very little), Egypt, and Yemen-invaded the new state and, well, lost. Needless to say, this left poor Jerusalem adrift, where it was happily picked up by Jordan (again, an illegal takeover) and was again taken over in 1967 by the Israelis (yet another legaly questionable move)
So that is just to clarify all the crap about Jerusalem belonging to this, them, or the other guy.

(My source is The History of the Middle Easy Wars, by John Westwood. It is unique in the way that it manages to not show bias on a very touchy subject)

Ahem. As for the actual question at hand, it is a really, really bad mistake. Retribution raids worked well in the early years of Israel's history because the Fedayeen attacks were sponsored by arab governments. Not so much any more...it just pisses people off.

One other thing, and this isn't directed at anybody in particular...lets stop with the "Violent Jews" horseshit. It offends me, because I'm a Jew, and I DON'T CONDONE THE VIOLENCE. And I appreciate the people who have stressed that it is the Israeli government, and not Israelis as a whole.

*gasp* The truth rings clear today! And by a new poster no less! /heart attack

One other thing, and this isn't directed at anybody in particular...lets stop with the "Violent Jews" horseshit. It offends me, because I'm a Jew, and I DON'T CONDONE THE VIOLENCE. And I appreciate the people who have stressed that it is the Israeli government, and not Israelis as a whole.

Thank you, I welcome some sanity in this debate.

*gasp* The truth rings clear today! And by a new poster no less! /heart attack

Yeah, but how long before the 101st Fighting Keyboarders jump on him as being an apostate or... Judas? (ba-dump!) It's like they refuse to acknowledge the existence of Jews who don't suck the Israeli government's kosher dill without question.

Yes, reality is certinaly "fracturing" me when credible global sources such as world factbooks, atlas and encyclopedia tell me that Jerusalem is indeed the capital.

If that's not reality, then what is? Youre [wrong] opinion trying to tell me how it is on an internet forum?

Debate this:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html

Anyone know the capital of Cyprus.....?

No....?

Hmmmm.

Thank you, I welcome some sanity in this debate.

*gasp* The truth rings clear today! And by a new poster no less! /heart attack

:D Thank you. I'm in town till monday.
No, thats a lie. I'm stuck at home for the indefinite future.

Yeah, but how long before the 101st Fighting Keyboarders jump on him as being an apostate or... Judas? (ba-dump!) It's like they refuse to acknowledge the existence of Jews who don't suck the Israeli government's kosher dill without question.

Actually, it's kinda sad, and I have noticed that too.
Though I do love kosher dill.
mmmmmmmmmm. Kosher Dill. mmmmmmmmm.

The Nazis practically invented collective punishment, which is exactly what this is, and exactly what TAI said.

So yeah, thanks for your awesome ability to blurt out GODWINS LAW LOL whenever you see discussion about Nazism, but it's meaningless and irrelevant and frankly, god damned annoying.

Not really, collective punishment has probably been around since the dawn of civilization. Heck, the Romans would kill 1/10th of an entire legion if the legion disobeyed orders, they were lined up and every tenth soldier was killed, regardless if they were involved or not.

Since then it has been part of Israel, goverened by Israel and incorporated into Israel.


So by this logic, you would be perfectly happy if the United States Government leveled your entire area of residence in a 50 mile radius, because one nut there went on a rampage?

Not really, collective punishment has probably been around since the dawn of civilization. Heck, the Romans would kill 1/10th of an entire legion if the legion disobeyed orders, they were lined up and every tenth soldier was killed, regardless if they were involved or not.

Yes I know, technically the Nazis only refined collective punishment and made it much more... efficient.

So I said "practically" invented because they were the best "punishers" of their day and certainly better than before, at least in terms of body count and widespread awareness, fear and loathing.

Let Israel defend herself.

Let Israel defend herself.

Generally you defend against people attacking you, not people who aren't. Since doing the latter tends to make them into the former.

Jews're just a hateful tribe.
Why do people like you always have to adopt those pseudo-German names? Doesn't that get old?

Brothers and sisters of NSG, let us be calm.
Ha, who am I kidding. That isn't happening.

Historically, Jerusalem isn't part of any country. As a matter of fact, insofar as the U.N. is concerned according the Partrition plan of 1948, Jerusalem is held by Palestine, which would have been the state for, well, palestinians...except they rejected it because they believed that all the Jews would be killed/removed in a matter of days.
Shame it didn't work out when the arab countries-being Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon (though they did very little), Egypt, and Yemen-invaded the new state and, well, lost. Needless to say, this left poor Jerusalem adrift, where it was happily picked up by Jordan (again, an illegal takeover) and was again taken over in 1967 by the Israelis (yet another legaly questionable move)
So that is just to clarify all the crap about Jerusalem belonging to this, them, or the other guy.

(My source is The History of the Middle Easy Wars, by John Westwood. It is unique in the way that it manages to not show bias on a very touchy subject)

Ahem. As for the actual question at hand, it is a really, really bad mistake. Retribution raids worked well in the early years of Israel's history because the Fedayeen attacks were sponsored by arab governments. Not so much any more...it just pisses people off.

One other thing, and this isn't directed at anybody in particular...lets stop with the "Violent Jews" horseshit. It offends me, because I'm a Jew, and I DON'T CONDONE THE VIOLENCE. And I appreciate the people who have stressed that it is the Israeli government, and not Israelis as a whole.

Hi. I like your sanity.

Why do people like you always have to adopt those pseudo-German names? Doesn't that get old?

This is the Internet.

The Israeli government has a nasty tendency to overreact. It only adds fuel to the fire.

It does, doesn't it?

Let Israel defend herself.

There's a difference between attacking terrorists and destroying the homes of people who are just trying to live their lives. How is destroying the home of innocent people defending one's self? Sounds like bullying, or rather terrorism.

Sounds more fair than taking people out and shooting them.

Israel will make it so the cost of killing one Israeli is too great a toll for Palestinians to take. :)
No, it won't. Ever.

Sounds more fair than taking people out and shooting them.

They do that too. But you know that, don't you....

Originally Posted by The Atlantian islands
Israel will make it so the cost of killing one Israeli is too great a toll for Palestinians to take.

Again, the problem is that retribution raids don't work that well anymore. They were origionally created to stop the Arab governments from supporting the terrorist attacks into Israel, and they did work (to a point). But once the Intifada started, and it wasn't military trained fanatics but civilians doing the attacking, it stopped being effective and only got the world angry. And besides, there is so much bad blood between Israelis and Palestinians that Yootopia is right. Unless there is a real peace, the killing will just continue regardless of reprisals.

You approve of punishing innocent people for the crime of another?


It may be despicable while still effective.


The authorities said he wasn't in any way connected to terrorism.

That doesn't matter. The strategy works on a very individual level: you attack us, your family's home is destroyed. It just alters the cost-benefit analysis that runs through any attacker's head.

They do that too. But you know that, don't you....

The death penalty is illegal in Israel. Plenty of terrorists in Israeli jails, who will never be executed.

They don't execute the families in reprisal, either.

Post a link of someone other than Eichmann being executed by official result of a trial in Israel (they did make an exemption for someone like him).

Or official executions of family members for crimes committed by relatives.

Go ahead, I have time.

It may be despicable while still effective.
You could say that of dropping bombs over the entirety of Israel to stop this shit once and for all.
That doesn't matter. The strategy works on a very individual level: you attack us, your family's home is destroyed. It just alters the cost-benefit analysis that runs through any attacker's head.
He wasn't actually a 'proper' attacker, though. He was just a random Arab that went postal.

It may be despicable while still effective.

And yet there are still suicide bombings, rocketings and the occasional shooting despite countless homes being bulldozed or collateral damage inflicted by Israel in retaliation.

That doesn't matter. The strategy works on a very individual level: you attack us, your family's home is destroyed. It just alters the cost-benefit analysis that runs through any attacker's head.

Except these attackers are often motivated by a combination of outrage and/or religious fervor that dismisses the notion of materialism and often makes cost/benefit analyses very skewered in the opposite direction or even outright meaningless, as can be seen with the continued attacks.

And yet there are still suicide bombings, rocketings and the occasional shooting despite countless homes being bulldozed or collateral damage inflicted by Israel in retaliation.

Then maybe Israel should send in the military, and annihilate every last Palestinian. It's well within their technical means.

Problem solved.

Then maybe Israel should send in the military, and annihilate every last Palestinian. It's well within their technical means.

Problem solved.

Heh. I feel like that wouldn't go over well...

Then maybe Israel should send in the military, and annihilate every last Palestinian. It's well within their technical means.

Problem solved.

Deep Kimchi wanting the Israelis to ex-ter-mi-nate the Palestinians.

And in other news, the sky is still blue, Benedict is still the Pope of the Catholic Church, and bears still take a shit in the woods.

:rolleyes:

Then maybe Israel should send in the military, and annihilate every last Palestinian. It's well within their technical means.

Problem solved.

how do i started war in middle east?

IIRC this is standard practice in Israeli counterterrorism. Apparently it's the best solution they've found for deterring suicide attacks. Draw from that whatever conclusions you will.

dosn't seem to work

Considering Israel was founded on the basis of giving Jews a refuge from the Nazis in the first place, this could be considered as solid evidence of how abuse spreads like a zombie virus amongst victims.

if you beat your child he will grow up to beat his child

Go ahead, I have time.




Course you do. That may well be part of your problem.

http://elyon1.court.gov.il/Files_ENG/02/690/007/a34/02007690.a34.htm

Course you do. That may well be part of your problem.

http://elyon1.court.gov.il/Files_ENG/02/690/007/a34/02007690.a34.htm

Maybe you should have read it.

Civilians lose the protection against military attack, granted to them by customary international law dealing with international armed conflict (as adopted in The First Protocol, §51(3)), if "they take a direct part in hostilities".

It looks like killing people who are planning to kill you is ok - because they're planning to take a direct part in hostilities. And if their relatives happen to be in the same room with them, that's their tough luck in war.

If the Palestinians wanted the targeted killings to stop, they would hand over their leaders and militants (in essence, surrender), stack up all of their arms in the middle of the street, and forego all of their violent goals.

It looks like the Israelis have a system of law - something you've just proven for me. And it looks like the Palestinians don't. They're literally "unlawful combatants". Under international law, it would be permissible to bomb the living shit out of Gaza, run over it with tanks, and destroy every building in sight.

It is a remarkable measure of restraint that the Israelis don't do this.

I think many of you have missed the point here;
Whilst it is deplorable that the Israeli government has decided to do this it would be incorrect to blame the entire country of Israel for it.

I also feel compelled to point out to those of you who repeatedly point out that Israel's borders are disputed that such UN resolutions generally require and/or imply a certain degree of reciprocation from the Palestinians, i.e., a ceasing of hostilities, which has certainly not been done.

Furthermore I agree with Hotwife, the Israelis are often show a remarkable degree of restraint given the utter lack of restraint shown by the Palestinians.

*utter, utter BS about direct involvement*
Don't see how the entire family and indeed everyone in that house is directly involved in the slightest.

Don't see how the entire family and indeed everyone in that house is directly involved in the slightest.

They're brown and Muslim. Thus, according to DK, are guilty of terrorist by proximity.

Furthermore I agree with Hotwife, the Israelis are often show a remarkable degree of restraint given the utter lack of restraint shown by the Palestinians.

Bulldozing the inhabited home of a man who went postal with no connections to Hamas or any other terrorist organizations according to the Israeli government itself is called "a remarkable degree of restraint"? That's not counterterrorism, that's collective punishment encouraging terrorism.

Do you also agree with Deep Kimchi/Hotwife that all Muslims are hostile to all other human life and need to be sterilized or killed?

Maybe you should have read it.
.

O I read it.


It looks like killing people who are planning to kill you is ok - because they're planning to take a direct part in hostilities. And if their relatives happen to be in the same room with them, that's their tough luck in war..

Extrajudicial execution, with the added tidbit of collateral damage. Thus Israel does in fact 'take people out and shoot them'....or fire a rocket into their apartment building killing them, their family, neighbours and everybody else unlucky enough to be there at the time.



It looks like the Israelis have a system of law - something you've just proven for me. ..

More blather, nonsense and inconsistency. Saudi Arabia has a "system of law" and should some one run afoul of that for something you fail to agree with, you'll be there yammering away.....

More blather, nonsense and inconsistency. Saudi Arabia has a "system of law" and should some one run afoul of that for something you fail to agree with, you'll be there yammering away.....

Remember Boys and Girls: Draconian Oppression is bad to Kimchi only when 73h 3b1l m0zl3mz do it.

Remember Boys and Girls: Draconian Oppression is bad to Kimchi only when 73h 3b1l m0zl3mz do it.

Indeed.

I'm not suprised. If a Palestinian steals candy from a store it's called terrorism.
How is going on a rampage to willfully murder people akin to stealing candy?

How is going on a rampage to willfully murder people akin to stealing candy?

Learn some contextual reading. He made a satirical comment that any crime committed by a Palestinian, no matter how petty or how little it had to do with actual terrorist activities would probably be labelled an act of terrorism by the Israeli government.

It looks like the Israelis have a system of law - something you've just proven for me. And it looks like the Palestinians don't. They're literally "unlawful combatants". Under international law, it would be permissible to bomb the living shit out of Gaza, run over it with tanks, and destroy every building in sight.
Hehehe... It's kinda comforting to know that some things doesn't change. You still don't know a thing about international law. :)

I also feel compelled to point out to those of you who repeatedly point out that Israel's borders are disputed that such UN resolutions generally require and/or imply a certain degree of reciprocation from the Palestinians, i.e., a ceasing of hostilities, which has certainly not been done.
And the Israelis have failed to live up to their promises as well. Neither side is any good at keeping their words.

Furthermore I agree with Hotwife, the Israelis are often show a remarkable degree of restraint given the utter lack of restraint shown by the Palestinians.
What "lack of restraint"?

I don't know. I hate Palestinians, but this does seem a bit overboard...

I don't know. I hate Palestinians, but this does seem a bit overboard...


Well maybe if you read into it more, you'd have a better perspective.....

http://www.btselem.org/English/

I don't know. I hate Palestinians, but this does seem a bit overboard...

It's a good thing its only racism if you hate the jews...

The authorities said he wasn't in any way connected to terrorism.

Outside of committing an act of terrorism, you mean?

On this logic, Timothy McVeigh wasn't connected to terrorism either.

Outside of committing an act of terrorism, you mean?

On this logic, Timothy McVeigh wasn't connected to terrorism either.

You can make the comparison when the McVeigh family home gets bulldozed to make up for Oklahoma City.

:rolleyes:

And the bulldozer attack was not terrorism. It was a man going extremely postal. No terrorist organization claimed responsibility for the attack, and the deceased had nothing to indicate any political or religious motivation that may have sparked the attack. Basically he was a low-key figure who suddenly snapped.

Terrorism is violence with a clear political goal. This had no clear goal, hence it is not terrorism.

Unless you're going by the Kimchi Logic of "A Palestinian is a Muslim is a Terrorist is a Terrorist is a Terrorist" of course.

You can make the comparison when the McVeigh family home gets bulldozed to make up for Oklahoma City.

I'm not condoning any of this.

Though if the US had a problem with guys like McVeigh going nuts on a repetitive basis (and despite the claims of some people, there is no terrorist problem of that degree in the US), I bet the US government would consider some pretty extreme stuff to do.

I don't know. I hate Palestinians, but this does seem a bit overboard...

And when Sel Appa says that, you know the Israelis has gone so far across the line that it's just a blurr in the distance! :eek:

Outside of committing an act of terrorism, you mean?

On this logic, Timothy McVeigh wasn't connected to terrorism either.

How so? If this guy went postal and wanted to do sui8cide-by-Israeli-police, there weren't much political motivation or political goals behind his actions. That would make it fall outside most of the commonly used definitions of terrorism, wouldn't it?

As opposed to McVeigh...

How so? If this guy went postal and wanted to do sui8cide-by-Israeli-police, there weren't much political motivation or political goals behind his actions. That would make it fall outside most of the commonly used definitions of terrorism, wouldn't it?

The word "terrorism" has been so over-used people think damned near any sort of killing can be "terrorism".

This incident is far more akin to that kid who shot people in the mall in Omaha a while back than to the OKC bombing. One crazy asshole killing people because he's a crazy asshole, not because of some political agenda.

Frankly, I don't care.

I don't think we should be razing the homes of these people anyway.

Sounds more fair than taking people out and shooting them.

As fair as demolishing your home just because somebody from your town murdered someone. I could rent a bulldozer easily, are you prepared to lose your home because of the actions of someone else?

Ohhh, but I forget, it's only alright when the victims are your favorite pet hates. When it personally inconveniences you, it's not alright at all, in fact, its eeeeevvvvviilllll.

Let's see your possible responses.

1: Bullshit about numbers and how only Muslims have hive minds.
2: Generic bullshit mixed in with lies about how I must somehow support random killings.
3: Run away like a small child. Come back the next day pretending none of this happen, the same old tired bile ready to be flung.

So go ahead, surprise me. But you can't anyway, your mind is incapable of processing anything outside of the track you've built for it.

As fair as demolishing your home just because somebody from your town murdered someone. I could rent a bulldozer easily, are you prepared to lose your home because of the actions of someone else?

Ohhh, but I forget, it's only alright when the victims are your favorite pet hates. When it personally inconveniences you, it's not alright at all, in fact, its eeeeevvvvviilllll.

Let's see your possible responses.

1: Bullshit about numbers and how only Muslims have hive minds.
2: Generic bullshit mixed in with lies about how I must somehow support random killings.
3: Run away like a small child. Come back the next day pretending none of this happen, the same old tired bile ready to be flung.

So go ahead, surprise me. But you can't anyway, your mind is incapable of processing anything outside of the track you've built for it.

You cover the essentials quite well there, I'd say.

You cover the essentials quite well there, I'd say.

It's tiresome really, but it does provide a number of insights. I intend to write a paper on this sort of behavior one day, with a number of suggestions in how to create a desired behavior with specific stimuli. A human psychological variant of Newtonian physics if you will.

Or I suppose I could be lazy and just have a bunch of pre-written responses with blanks for appropriate subject titles whenever he gets up to blathering again.

It's tiresome really, but it does provide a number of insights. I intend to write a paper on this sort of behavior one day, with a number of suggestions in how to create a desired behavior with specific stimuli. A human psychological variant of Newtonian physics if you will.

Should be an interesting read.

Or I suppose I could be lazy and just have a bunch of pre-written responses with blanks for appropriate subject titles whenever he gets up to blathering again.

And he only posts his sewage in threads with three distinct topics:

1) Muslims Are Evil
2) Gun Control Is Evil
3) Democrats Are Evil

Should be an interesting read.



And he only posts his sewage in threads with three distinct topics:

1) Muslims Are Evil
2) Gun Control Is Evil
3) Democrats Are Evil

...usually based on

1) A lie (complete and utter, obvious from get go)
2) A complete distortion
3) The "biased sample".

The israeli zionist jews hold a firm belief that laws don't apply to them. Plus add here who invented racism first... see the word "goyim".

Hitler believed that Germans are the most pure Nation on the planet, that it stands above all other nations, even above other Aryan nations (nations of the Aryan Race). Zionists believe that Jews are a "god-chosen" nation, and that all other nations are "Goys" (cattle/slaves). Little difference.

Hitler believed that Germans are the most pure Nation on the planet, that it stands above all other nations, even above other Aryan nations (nations of the Aryan Race). Zionists believe that Jews are a "god-chosen" nation, and that all other nations are "Goys" (cattle/slaves). Little difference.

Oh good, AP now ventures more directly into his Anti-Semitic trash-talk. I suppose this kind of deluded racism helps you justify Comrade Stalin's killing of Jews. It also winds up justifying Hitler's genocides as well, but hey why limit yourself to whining about poor victimized Stalinists when you can whine about poor victimized Nazis TOO?

Perhaps one day, Andaras will grow up, move out of his mother's basement, and be forced to get an actual job (gasp! serving the capitalist bourgeois!). I doubt he'll change his schizophrenic, irrational beliefs. But at least he'll have less time to blurt them out on NSG.

Hitler(.....)ference.

To quote Plato - "Knickers."

I suppose I have to point out that "goy" means 'person' and while in modern times it has a connotation of 'non-Jewish person,' the only people who tend to claim it means "cattle" or "slave" are Anti-Semites who get their understanding of Hebrew from reading the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

And in this case, Andaras is using this flat-out lie and/or ignorant statement as an obvious attempt to conflate Nazis with Jews. Pretty standard Anti-Semitic fare.

So despite the fact this guy acted alone, wasn't connected with religious fundamentalists or terrorist groups, wasn't known to be linked locally with anything illegal - his house is to be destroyed... and people still live there.


Here in northern Italy the Nazis used to raze the buildings where partisans or jews were suspected to have sheltered, regardless of people not connected to partisans living there.

The result? More support for partisans.

Same went for Blackshirts in Jugoslavia razing villages where Jugoslav partisans were suspected to have sheltered. And so on, and so on...

What a smart move.

Trostia has been banned for two days for flaming in Moderation. Let's see, who else ...

Jews're just a hateful tribe.

Warned for trolling. The quoted remark, and your low post-count, lead me to suppose you may not have read the One-Stop Rules Shop. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023) If you wish to continue posting here, read it.

The man loved Pinochet. Are you honestly surprised about this? He probably thinks all Muslims are Leftists too.

Remember Boys and Girls: Draconian Oppression is bad to Kimchi only when 73h 3b1l m0zl3mz do it.

... More blather, nonsense and inconsistency. Saudi Arabia has a "system of law" and should some one run afoul of that for something you fail to agree with, you'll be there yammering away.....

Do you also agree with Deep Kimchi/Hotwife that all Muslims are hostile to all other human life and need to be sterilized or killed?

If this were all, I'd have been telling you to cut it out. But you continued:

...usually based on

1) A lie (complete and utter, obvious from get go)
2) A complete distortion
3) The "biased sample".


And he only posts his sewage in threads with three distinct topics:

1) Muslims Are Evil
2) Gun Control Is Evil
3) Democrats Are Evil

... Ohhh, but I forget, it's only alright when the victims are your favorite pet hates. When it personally inconveniences you, it's not alright at all, in fact, its eeeeevvvvviilllll.

Let's see your possible responses.

1: Bullshit about numbers and how only Muslims have hive minds.
2: Generic bullshit mixed in with lies about how I must somehow support random killings.
3: Run away like a small child. Come back the next day pretending none of this happen, the same old tired bile ready to be flung.

So go ahead, surprise me. But you can't anyway, your mind is incapable of processing anything outside of the track you've built for it.

Nodinia, Gauthier, Non-Aligned States, take a day off for flaming/flamebait.

Now, who've I missed ... ah, yes ... anyone else who plans to try debating ideas and principles by personally abusing the poster who supports those ideas and principles, whatever they are, that's who I've missed.

I'll be back for anyone who puts that particular plan into practice.

The israeli zionist jews hold a firm belief that laws don't apply to them. Plus add here who invented racism first... see the word "goyim".

There has been racism a lot longer than there has been yiddish. Considering yiddish wasn't formed until after the diaspora, and the diaspora is arguably one of the most racist acts in history?
Yeah, no.
And "goyin" means a christian. Thats it. It's not a negative connotation.

IIRC this is standard practice in Israeli counterterrorism. Apparently it's the best solution they've found for deterring suicide attacks. Draw from that whatever conclusions you will.

Why would you use conterterrorism tactics (weather I agree with them or not) if this was not an act of terrorism

...annihilate every last...

Mmm. Where have I heard this before? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides)

Just to be sure: Hotwife's propositions regarding this topic seem to be in that direction. I'm not making any claims as to whether or not this personally reflects upon him.

Curious thing... most nations can seize homes or assets of criminals, even an inhabited home, and not only is it legit, it doesn't even get a mention in the press.

In the US, you can lose your home without a trial if it is part of a drug crime, or if you haven't paid your taxes.

Going on a murder spree seems at least as horrific as being a tax cheat.

You can even lose it just because the government wanted to take it, and give it to someone who would make more money off of it. Eminent Domain. It's something neither Republicans nor Democrats will bring up because both gain, and right wing or left wing, Congress Critters and other Gubmint types don't like to give up something that brings in money and/or power. So they make up silly non-issue issues to distract us.

And now here we have complaints that Israel is following Arab policy: As no Arab nation has suggested reparations for any of the homes they stole from hundreds of thousands of Jewish citizens disposessed, one can only assume they consider such government acquisition of property to be completely legitimate. So where are are the calls for reparations?

There can be only one reason why the same behavior is tolerated from non-Jews and denounced when Jews do it.

Bigotry.

Anyone and everyone who gets all worked up over this, but hasn't said a word over the theft of houses of Libyan, Algerian, Iranian etc etc etc Jews, is a bigot.

I have a simple and fair solution: Israel should immediately compensate the family of anyone living in a destroyed or stolen home, with the deed to a home stolen from Jews by an Arab/Iranian nation. (this should be easy, according to a brief Google search, the amount of Jewish-owned land pre-1948 is actually larger than the state of Israel! They can award each disposessed Palestinian with at least as much land as they are losing! If they don't wish to live there, they can then sell it.)

Yes, Yes, I know the objections, the impracticality: Can't possibly work, Mott Haven, you see, those were Jewish Homes, seized by Muslim nations, totally different standard applies, it's all okay, water under the bridge, move along, nothing more to see. Right?


History has ironies. Since the 7th century, Islam and Judaism and Christianity existed more or less peacefully in the Middle East. The only hitch was, when it fluctuated to the less, it was always on the side of Muslims.
For example, the law was, (and still is!) that a child of mixed family, in a divorce, always goes to the Muslim parent. (Because they're better, that's why.) Since the existence of Israel, Muslims have faced a reality in which sometimes, someone else in the Middle East gets the preferential treatment. And although they never made a single squeak about the inequalities when it served their side, they are up in arms when it's turned around.

And so we have, for example again, Egyptian Muslims outraged over preferential treatment of Jews in Israel, who will, without a blink, turn around and tell you why it is only right and proper that custody of a child in a Coptic-Muslim marriage, in a divorce, must always belong to the Muslim parent. The Irony is lost on them. And thanks to the media's very focussed eye on Israel, lost to all others.

Curious thing... most nations can seize homes or assets of criminals, even an inhabited home, and not only is it legit, it doesn't even get a mention in the press.

In the US, you can lose your home without a trial if it is part of a drug crime, or if you haven't paid your taxes.
Where the home is seized from the criminal for a crime. Not his family when he's dead.

Going on a murder spree seems at least as horrific as being a tax cheat.

You can even lose it just because the government wanted to take it, and give it to someone who would make more money off of it. Eminent Domain. It's something neither Republicans nor Democrats will bring up because both gain, and right wing or left wing, Congress Critters and other Gubmint types don't like to give up something that brings in money and/or power. So they make up silly non-issue issues to distract us.
You get paid for your house in eminent domain.

*snip comparison between Israel and it's neighbour*
That's hardly bigotry when Israel states that bulldozing is in response to terrorist actions and done to punish the family and neighbour of the criminal instead of the criminal himself.

Your comparison doesn't stand.

We denounce Israel's actions because it's counterproductive and because it's collective punishment. Show me where Eminent Domain is collective punishment and I'll gladly denounce that too.

We denounce Israel's actions because it's counterproductive and because it's collective punishment. Show me where Eminent Domain is collective punishment and I'll gladly denounce that too.

But we never said a word when Arab nations took homes from Jews, because...

Hmmm...

BTW, Eminent domain pays, but it is forced nonetheless.

And yes, you CAN forfeit your home if you are a dead criminal in the US, even if others still live in it.

But we never said a word when Arab nations took homes from Jews, because...

Because Arab nations aren't liberal democracies. We know they're assholes. We complain about things like this because they're considered to be something extraordinary or unusual, not to be considered par for the course as they would be in a despotic dictatorship.

But we never said a word when Arab nations took homes from Jews, because...

Hmmm...

Because I haven't heard about it, you're right. Here listen to this:

Seizing home without retribution is bad no matter who does it. The Arad were wrong to do it to Jews as much as Israel is wrong in doing it today.

BTW, Eminent domain pays, but it is forced nonetheless.

And yes, you CAN forfeit your home if you are a dead criminal in the US, even if others still live in it.
But it won't be bulldozed over without you leaving with your possessions (those not seized, in any rate). We all heard the stories of houses bulldozed with people still in it.

But the main difference is the stated purpose behind Israel's actions: collective punishment. And that, my friend is bad, no matter who does it.

Again, the problem is that retribution raids don't work that well anymore. They were origionally created to stop the Arab governments from supporting the terrorist attacks into Israel, and they did work (to a point). But once the Intifada started, and it wasn't military trained fanatics but civilians doing the attacking, it stopped being effective and only got the world angry. And besides, there is so much bad blood between Israelis and Palestinians that Yootopia is right. Unless there is a real peace, the killing will just continue regardless of reprisals.

Then they need to be separated.

What are they fighting over? 1000's of years of wrong doings of each to the other? Or over land? Is it holy land?

Sure can't separate them if that's the case.. cause neither will agree to leave their holy land .. which is on the same land. :goes in circles

to that:

-snip- They will fight until at least one side is no longer existing.

Sadly fits.

Unless there is a forced separation.

Curious thing... most nations can seize homes or assets of criminals, even an inhabited home, and not only is it legit, it doesn't even get a mention in the press.
Care to prove that?


Anyone and everyone who gets all worked up over this, but hasn't said a word over the theft of houses of Libyan, Algerian, Iranian etc etc etc Jews, is a bigot.
Bullshit.

The theft of jewish properties is bad and condemnable. However, it does not excuse the illegal collective punishment by the Israeli government.


But we never said a word when Arab nations took homes from Jews, because...
Are you talking about a current event, or something that happened before I was born?

Since the house is already a pile of rubble at this point, and the ravings of some people on this forum isn't going to change that, or the Israeli policy, I think this thread is done.

Isn't it nice to know that your useless points about collective punishment mean zero in the real world?

Care to prove that??

Don't have to. You can go google your own examples of house seizures around the world. Clue: If it happens in Australia and Canada, you can bet your butt it happens in nations with more questionable legal systems, ie, most of them.




The theft of jewish properties is bad and condemnable. However, it does not excuse the illegal collective punishment by the Israeli government.



Irrelevant. The singling out of one group for an offense, while tolerating, excusing, apologizing for, or otherwise giving a pass to other groups for actions that are similar or worse, is in fact the very definition of bigotry. Yes, fact: If you are outraged over this, but see no cause for outrage when 25 houses are demolished by Egypt, then you are a bigot.

http://www.echr.org/en/prs/02/dwq.htm


Are you talking about a current event, or something that happened before I was born?

Depends on when you were born, doesn't it? Was that some particularly special day, that rendered moot all events occurring before it? I must have missed it. Suffice it to say, it is a current event, as the Arab nations STILL insist that ejecting the Jews was correct and proper, and that they owe nothing for the stolen houses.

Of course Qaddafi has had his own wacky spin. He says Libya is willing to compensate Jews who were evicted, *unless* they moved to Israel, and *only if* they return to live in Libya.

So what do you think are the chances that a Jewish family in the USA/Canada/UK/France/Australia/AnywhereButIsrael might take him up on it, and choose to settle in Libya?

yeah, I thought the same.

They will fight until at least one side is no longer existing.
Unless there is a forced separation.
Or unless they both nuke each other to Hell.

That would be the best outcome, since the world will be much better with the Middle East returned to the state of an empty desert it should be.

Or unless they both nuke each other to Hell.

That would be the best outcome, since the world will be much better with the Middle East returned to the state of an empty desert it should be.

It'd send our economy to hell too.

Then, within a week, someone will be mass printing guidebooks for operation of petroleum industry infrastructure while wearing radiation protection suits...

... in Spanish, and Chinese.

Yeah, it would work.

Isn't it nice to know that your useless points about collective punishment mean zero in the real world?

We'll get back to you on that if you ever make any complaint about being punished for something you didn't do.

It'd send our economy to hell too.
Then, within a week, someone will be mass printing guidebooks for operation of petroleum industry infrastructure while wearing radiation protection suits..
Not really. Oil can be drilled just as well with the "holy ground" crowd mass-buried in that ground.

Plus there are Venezuela, Russia, Alaska, which at least are intelligent and civilized.

Since the house is already a pile of rubble at this point, and the ravings of some people on this forum isn't going to change that, or the Israeli policy, I think this thread is done.

Isn't it nice to know that your useless points about collective punishment mean zero in the real world?
Well, your posts usually are worthless, I agree, but I think this thread has some value.
Don't have to. You can go google your own examples of house seizures around the world. Clue: If it happens in Australia and Canada, you can bet your butt it happens in nations with more questionable legal systems, ie, most of them.
So you can't be bothered? OK, then I can safely ignore your claim.


Irrelevant. The singling out of one group for an offense, while tolerating, excusing, apologizing for, or otherwise giving a pass to other groups for actions that are similar or worse, is in fact the very definition of bigotry. Yes, fact: If you are outraged over this, but see no cause for outrage when 25 houses are demolished by Egypt, then you are a bigot.
No, it is very relevant - since this is a thread about the Israeli actions. If you made a thread on the arab demolishings, I would voice my condemnation there. Doing it here, however, would be both off-topic and irrelevant.That's how this forum works.

All it seems like is that you're making excuses for the Israeli government, and trying to quell the condemnation of their abuses as seen in this case.

http://www.echr.org/en/prs/02/dwq.htm
Sad and deplorable :(

Not collective punishment though, as in the case at hand.


Depends on when you were born, doesn't it? Was that some particularly special day, that rendered moot all events occurring before it? I must have missed it. Suffice it to say, it is a current event, as the Arab nations STILL insist that ejecting the Jews was correct and proper, and that they owe nothing for the stolen houses.
See, that was the important thing. I can't read your mind to know if it was a current event or if you were talking about the crusades.

Oh good, AP now ventures more directly into his Anti-Semitic trash-talk. I suppose this kind of deluded racism helps you justify Comrade Stalin's killing of Jews. It also winds up justifying Hitler's genocides as well, but hey why limit yourself to whining about poor victimized Stalinists when you can whine about poor victimized Nazis TOO?

Perhaps one day, Andaras will grow up, move out of his mother's basement, and be forced to get an actual job (gasp! serving the capitalist bourgeois!). I doubt he'll change his schizophrenic, irrational beliefs. But at least he'll have less time to blurt them out on NSG.

His sig should read: Mankind is divided into the perspicuous and the deluded - I belong to the latter category. Maybe he'll join Uncle Joe when it comes to rotting in Hell. He supports an ideology that is criminal, in that it's criminally stupid.

But we never said a word when Arab nations took homes from Jews, because...


.....NS wasn't on-line in 1947/48, 1967 etc.


Since the house is already a pile of rubble at this point,

As of 14.20 GMT on the 8th July, no it isn't.

Any reason you're claiming something thats obviously not true?

.....NS wasn't on-line in 1947/48, 1967 etc.



As of 14.20 GMT on the 8th July, no it isn't.

Any reason you're claiming something thats obviously not true?

It might as well be. Are you going to stop it?

Your whining on the subject is pointless, because nothing you can do will stop it.

It might as well be.

"might as well be" is not the same as
is already
is it?. Its loose language, when dealing with quite a volatile issue.


Your whining on the subject .

Well now, we could say the same thing about issues as diverse as the lack of 'naturist' beaches to the US election and the true relationship of Jesus to G the F, couldn't we?

"whining"....thats a strange choice of phrasing. Any reason in particular you you used that terminology...?

Call me when you've laid down in front of the bulldozer. Be quick, because they'll run over you anyway.

Isn't it nice to know that your useless points about collective punishment mean zero in the real world?

Far less so than your lies and insinuations about certain ethnic and religious groups.

And you've yet to respond to the question as to whether you would accept collective punishment falling upon yourself regardless of whether you committed any crime or not.

Far less so than your lies and insinuations about certain ethnic and religious groups.

And you've yet to respond to the question as to whether you would accept collective punishment falling upon yourself regardless of whether you committed any crime or not.

No one asked. Are you asking?

No one asked. Are you asking?

Liar.

As fair as demolishing your home just because somebody from your town murdered someone. I could rent a bulldozer easily, are you prepared to lose your home because of the actions of someone else?

Liar.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Let's see about your own dishonesty, shall we?

The case in question is destroying the home the man is registered to live at (his family home).

Now, the rest of his family may bitch, but they're supposed to police themselves.

That's the purpose of this. I police my own relatives, especially those whom I believe are prone to doing illegal acts.

Yes, I would accept it, if it was an announced policy. And since I didn't get to make the law (I doubt the Palestinians had a hand in writing the law), I would be extra careful to turn in anyone rebellious, and report my own relatives in advance of any crime.

They're stupid not to.

The case is not one of levelling a whole town because of one man. You're deliberately widening the nature and scope of the punishment to the point where it's nothing like the issue at hand.

Now, the rest of his family may bitch, but they're supposed to police themselves..

Would you care to elaborate as to which law this relates to? I'd also be interested to know what court or tribunal adjudged them to be negligent, by finding that they could have known what was planned......


That's the purpose of this. I police my own relatives, especially those whom I believe are prone to doing illegal acts...

...and what American law would be served by this?


), I would be extra careful to turn in anyone rebellious, and report my own relatives in advance of any crime....

Its rather a shame for the english that there wasn't more with that attitude in and around 1770 on, in the North American colonies.....


They're stupid not to.

..which again presumes they knew what he was going to do.


The case is not one of levelling a whole town because of one man. .

Raids into Gaza have often accomplished much the same thing, and they were launched for purely punitive reasons.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Let's see about your own dishonesty, shall we?


When you can find me lying, call me on it, and we can bicker about it. Until then, stop making rubbish up.


The case in question is destroying the home the man is registered to live at (his family home).

Now, the rest of his family may bitch, but they're supposed to police themselves.

That's the purpose of this. I police my own relatives, especially those whom I believe are prone to doing illegal acts.

Yes, I would accept it, if it was an announced policy. And since I didn't get to make the law (I doubt the Palestinians had a hand in writing the law), I would be extra careful to turn in anyone rebellious, and report my own relatives in advance of any crime.

They're stupid not to.

So you will accept such a punishment, not harbor any resentment against the authorities, and not impede their destruction of your home? Because I find it highly unlikely that you will be able to find out about impulse crimes of your neighbors or family before they happen.


The case is not one of levelling a whole town because of one man. You're deliberately widening the nature and scope of the punishment to the point where it's nothing like the issue at hand.

See? This is where you make rubbish up. I never said the whole town. I said your house.

Raids into Gaza have often accomplished much the same thing, and they were launched for purely punitive reasons.

If people shoot from a building, it gets leveled. Simple combat tactic, and not intended as a punitive measure.

Maybe the people who lived there should have shot the people who were busy shooting out of the window.

It is a matter of common law that it's everyone's duty to report crime.

Failure to do so can lead to charges of conspiracy.

If people shoot from a building, it gets leveled. Simple combat tactic, and not intended as a punitive measure.


Yet that presumes immediacy. Usually thats not the case, nor is it in the specific instance we are discussing.

What are those Israeli and American laws that you seemed to refer to earlier?

Yet that presumes immediacy. Usually thats not the case, nor is it in the specific instance we are discussing.

What are those Israeli and American laws that you seemed to refer to earlier?

Gaza is not an example of the current case. You're talking about two completely separate incidents as though they were the same.

When they are not.

It is also a sound combat tactic to level a building where people have fired from in the past, to remove a place of cover and concealment from enemy use.

So immediacy has nothing to do with it.

The man with the bulldozer didn't shoot from the home. Or are you saying he did?

And if you're playing ignorant of the responsibility and obligation to report crime or criminal action or plans of a criminal nature, you're not very convincing.

I'm not suprised. If a Palestinian steals candy from a store it's called terrorism.

I thought that was terrorism?

Kidding!


And the fighting won't stop until one or both sides are dead, or until big brother steps in and says "Look. If you guys don't quit it and play nice, we're killing both of you."

Gaza is not an example of the current case. You're talking about two completely separate incidents as though they were the same..

You stated

The case is not one of levelling a whole town because of one man..
I pointed out - quite correctly - that past Israeli raids into Gaza have effectively done just that. A soldier is killed in some fashion, and killings and destruction of property (a mix of random and targeted violence) ensues. One might even place the recent excursion


It is also a sound combat tactic to level a building where people have fired from in the past, to remove a place of cover and concealment from enemy use.

I'm sure it is.



The man with the bulldozer didn't shoot from the home. Or are you saying he did?.

No, thus removing any idea that 'battlefield decisions' can be used as an excuse to destroy the home.


And if you're playing ignorant of the responsibility and obligation to report crime or criminal action or plans of a criminal nature, you're not very convincing.

This would require a case to be brought against the family, to prove that they knew - in advance - what he was going to do, and failed to act to stop him, wouldn't it?

Not surprising, hardly even newsworthy I say.

It might as well be. Are you going to stop it?

Your whining on the subject is pointless, because nothing you can do will stop it.

Too bad, as this will only hurt Israel in the long run.

Haaretz reported on its Web site that Maj. Gen. Udi Shani, who headed a committee reviewing the matter, had challenged the existing military position that demolitions were an effective deterrent. It said he had concluded that the policy had caused Israel more harm than good by generating hatred among the Palestinians.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/18/international/middleeast/18mideast.html

This would require a case to be brought against the family, to prove that they knew - in advance - what he was going to do, and failed to act to stop him, wouldn't it?

If all you want is a trial, I think that would be ok - but if the family were found guilty of having known, bulldoze the house.

If all you want is a trial, I think that would be ok - but if the family were found guilty of having known, bulldoze the house.

...no, that would be call for jail for the guilty. As theres three generations there, I see no reason to wantonly destroy the place. This isn't the sand pit on a sunday evening with the tonka toys...

If all you want is a trial, I think that would be ok - but if the family were found guilty of having known, bulldoze the house.

Would you be saying this if the person were an Irish man linked to the IRA and his family Irish people? Or is it just because they're Muslims?

As a matter of fact, insofar as the U.N. is concerned according the Partrition plan of 1948, Jerusalem is held by Palestine
No, according to the 1948 plan, Jerusalem (and a zone stretching a few miles in all directions from the city limits as they were in 1948, most of which area Israel has since declared to be annexed to the city of Jerusalem) was not to belong EITHER to Israel OR to Palestine, but to be a special zone under UN administration. This is why Israel thinks it has a right to treat East Jerusalem differently from the West Bank, which was to be part of the Palestinian state; the rest of the world generally rejects the argument, so far as that part of the Jerusalem Zone past the armistice line (the "Green Line" border from 1949 to 1967) is concerned.

No, according to the 1948 plan, Jerusalem (and a zone stretching a few miles in all directions from the city limits as they were in 1948, most of which area Israel has since declared to be annexed to the city of Jerusalem) was not to belong EITHER to Israel OR to Palestine, but to be a special zone under UN administration. This is why Israel thinks it has a right to treat East Jerusalem differently from the West Bank, which was to be part of the Palestinian state; the rest of the world generally rejects the argument, so far as that part of the Jerusalem Zone past the armistice line (the "Green Line" border from 1949 to 1967) is concerned.

Sir or madam, you are correct...on paper. However, the Arab state would completely surround U.N. held Jerusalem, effectively making it part of said nation.

However, you are correct. I was looking at an earlier plan.

Would you be saying this if the person were an Irish man linked to the IRA and his family Irish people? Or is it just because they're Muslims?

No, he'd be saying it if it were an Irishman too. Hotwife/DK is, at least, consistent in that regard.