NationStates Jolt Archive


**Change you can believe in**

The Atlantian islands
04-07-2008, 16:02
Just not the kind of change you think.....

A Man of Seasonal Principles

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, July 4, 2008; Page A17

You'll notice Barack Obama is now wearing a flag pin. Again. During the primary campaign, he refused to, explaining that he'd worn one after Sept. 11 but then stopped because it "became a substitute for, I think, true patriotism." So why is he back to sporting pseudo-patriotism on his chest? Need you ask? The primaries are over. While seducing the hard-core MoveOn Democrats that delivered him the caucuses -- hence, the Democratic nomination -- Obama not only disdained the pin. He disparaged it. Now that he's running in a general election against John McCain, and in dire need of the gun-and-God-clinging working-class votes he could not win against Hillary Clinton, the pin is back. His country 'tis of thee.

In last week's column, I thought I had thoroughly chronicled Obama's brazen reversals of position and abandonment of principles -- on public financing of campaigns, on NAFTA, on telecom immunity for post-Sept. 11 wiretaps, on unconditional talks with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad -- as he moved to the center for the general election campaign. I misjudged him. He was just getting started.

Last week, when the Supreme Court declared unconstitutional the District of Columbia's ban on handguns, Obama immediately declared that he agreed with the decision. This is after his campaign explicitly told the Chicago Tribune last November that he believes the D.C. gun ban is constitutional.

Obama spokesman Bill Burton explains the inexplicable by calling the November -- i.e., the primary season -- statement "inartful." Which suggests a first entry in the Obamaworld dictionary -- "Inartful: clear and straightforward, lacking the artistry that allows subsequent self-refutation and denial."


Obama's seasonally adjusted principles are beginning to pile up: NAFTA, campaign finance reform, warrantless wiretaps, flag pins, gun control. What's left?

Iraq. The reversal is coming, and soon.

Two weeks ago, I predicted that by Election Day Obama will have erased all meaningful differences with McCain on withdrawal from Iraq. I underestimated Obama's cynicism. He will make the move much sooner. He will use his upcoming Iraq trip to finally acknowledge the remarkable improvements on the ground and to formally abandon his primary season commitment to a fixed 16-month timetable for removal of all combat troops.

The shift has already begun. Yesterday, he said that his "original position" on withdrawal has always been that "we've got to make sure that our troops are safe and that Iraq is stable." And that "when I go to Iraq . . . I'll have more information and will continue to refine my policies."

He hasn't even gone to Iraq and the flip is almost complete. All that's left to say is that the 16-month time frame remains his goal but that he will, of course, take into account the situation on the ground and the recommendation of his generals in deciding whether the withdrawal is to occur later or even sooner.
Done.

And with that, the Obama of the primaries, the Obama with last year's most liberal voting record in the Senate, will have disappeared into the collective memory hole.

Obama's strategy is obvious. The country is in a deep malaise and eager for change. He and his party already have the advantage on economic and domestic issues. Obama, therefore, aims to clear the deck by moving rapidly to the center in those areas where he and his party are weakest, namely national security and the broader cultural issues. With these -- and, most important, his war-losing Iraq policy -- out of the way, the election will be decided on charisma and persona. In this corner: the young sleek cool hip elegant challenger. In the other corner: the old guy. No contest.

After all, that's how he beat Hillary. She originally ran as a centrist, expecting her nomination to be a mere coronation. At the first sign of serious opposition, however, she panicked and veered left. It was a fatal error. It eliminated all significant ideological and policy differences with Obama -- her desperate attempts to magnify their minuscule disagreement on health-care universality became almost comical -- making the contest entirely one of personality. No contest.

As Obama assiduously obliterates all differences with McCain on national security and social issues, he remains rightly confident that Bush fatigue, the lousy economy and his own charisma -- he is easily the most dazzling political personality since John Kennedy -- will carry him to the White House.

Of course, once he gets there he will have to figure out what he really believes. The conventional liberal/populist stuff he campaigned on during the primaries? Or the reversals he is so artfully offering up now?

I have no idea. Do you? Does he?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/03/AR2008070302451.html?referrer=emailarticle

So what do you guys think of Obama after reading this?

To be honest I find it quite brilliant what he's doing, and for me personally, I don't care that his policies are super populist and change with the seasons, because they are moving Right to the center, away from the leftist he used to be. I'm still not gonna be voting for him, but this is not only brilliant on Obama's part, but a bit comforting to see, as long as he remains this way when he gets into power and doesn't revert back to his former self. That is the part that is troubling. We just don't know what to expect from Obama if he were to win. Many people are willing to bet on him and his change, and simply "hope" that whatever he brings in will be an improvement and lead to progress. Nobody actually knows.

Whether you like or dislike his policies and view of what the government should be and how the economy should function (and boy do I dislike them), you gotta admit that he knows what he's doing in this campaign. I mean, granted...look at his competition....But, damn.

Not really related but the song I'm listening to right now is totally Obama-Propoganda, but because it's such a fantastic song I'm gonna post it here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xreNWt0wAMA

Anyone else love it?
Call to power
04-07-2008, 16:09
speak wonders about the American public if wearing some tacky pin wins votes doesn't it?

oh gawd can you imagine the horror of Mr Brown dressed as John Bull:eek:
Gift-of-god
04-07-2008, 16:17
TAI, why do you post editorials?

Is it because it is easier than posting an actual news article and then making your own arguments?

After reading the editorial, it seems like the writer has decided that Obama is not allowed to change His mind ever, for any reason. I wonder what it is about some people, like the author presumably, that makes them consider change as bad.

I mean, it's not like everybody hasn't already figured out that Obama will merely make some minor, cosmetic changes to USian policy and not make any real change. If you really want to know what Obama is going to do in office, stop reading stupid editorials and find out where he got all that money for his campaign. Those people will set his agenda, not him and his populist public image.
East Canuck
04-07-2008, 16:17
What I think? That should have been posted in the election thread stickied.
Hotwife
04-07-2008, 16:20
I see the moderators are OK with TAI making other Obama threads and not posting them in the sticky election thread.
Heikoku 2
04-07-2008, 16:25
I see the moderators are OK with TAI making other Obama threads and not posting them in the sticky election thread.

Give them a break, TAI posted this 20 minutes ago. You're STILL sour about that time, which took WAY longer to close? Geez.

On a side note: TAI, get over yourself. Obama will move left again when he's in the White House, he'll make the US sane again, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Laerod
04-07-2008, 16:28
So what do you guys think of Obama after reading this?That some people care way too much about lapel pins?
Aelosia
04-07-2008, 16:33
Oh my God!, He's a politician and changes points of view in order to get votes!

Really, is that strange over there?

I don't think so.
Hachihyaku
04-07-2008, 16:36
I still think voting for Obama is a terrible idea...
The Atlantian islands
04-07-2008, 16:37
Get over the pin...there is alot more to discuss.

"Obama's seasonally adjusted principles are beginning to pile up: NAFTA, campaign finance reform, warrantless wiretaps, flag pins, gun control."

Stop focusing on the most minor of those issues. Typical leftist NSG repsonse.

Also..it's not just "changing his views"...it's changing basically everything so that nobody actually knows what he represents or what he will do once he is in power. I don't know about others, but I don't like voting for someone that I have no idea what he stands for and what he will do.

It's almost the same as just casting your vote in the dark....
Laerod
04-07-2008, 16:40
Get over the pin...there is alot more to discuss.

"Obama's seasonally adjusted principles are beginning to pile up: NAFTA, campaign finance reform, warrantless wiretaps, flag pins, gun control."Yeah, quit focussing on the flag pins and focus on the flag pins... :rolleyes:
Physician cure thyself.
It's almost the same as just casting your vote in the dark....Not relevant, seeing as I never intended to vote for Obama in the first place.
Aelosia
04-07-2008, 16:43
Yeah, quit focussing on the flag pins and focus on the flag pins... :rolleyes:
Physician cure thyself.

Why do you pwn so much?
The Atlantian islands
04-07-2008, 16:44
Yeah, quit focussing on the flag pins and focus on the flag pins... :rolleyes:
Physician cure thyself.
I simply quoted the author's listing of the other things...of which the flag pin is the most minor yet the only one that is not being ignored in this thread....Don't act stupid.
Not relevant, seeing as I never intended to vote for Obama in the first place.
Highly relevant, as I wasn't even talking to you but addressing it to NSG (hence no quotes) and since when is something not relevant if we are not voting on it? Ok...no more topics about Asia, or America, or Africa, or or or....

Enjoyed your hit from the Wrongbong?
Free Soviets
04-07-2008, 16:44
"...Obama with last year's most liberal voting record in the Senate..."

i find it shocking - shocking! - that each and every democrat ever is always 'the most liberal whatever in the whatever'. truly an amazing coincidence.
Laerod
04-07-2008, 16:50
Why do you pwn so much?Pent up sexual frustration coinciding with today being my national holiday :cool:
I simply quoted the author's listing of the other things...of which the flag pin is the most minor yet the only one that is not being ignored in this thread....Don't act stupid. Should have picked a better quote. Picking that particular quote was pure unintented comedy waiting for someone to notice.
Highly relevant, as I wasn't even talking to you but addressing it to NSG (hence no quotes) and since when is something not relevant if we are not voting on it? Ok...no more topics about Asia, or America, or Africa, or or or....You replying to my post implies that you're addressing me. You're inclusiuon of the words "casting your vote" implies you're talking about people casting their votes.
Enjoyed your hit from the Wrongbong?Is that like a funny bone? You know, not wrong, not a bong...
Muravyets
04-07-2008, 16:53
TAI, why do you post editorials?

Is it because it is easier than posting an actual news article and then making your own arguments?
Well, I suppose he has to get his ideas from somewhere...

After reading the editorial, it seems like the writer has decided that Obama is not allowed to change His mind ever, for any reason. I wonder what it is about some people, like the author presumably, that makes them consider change as bad.

<snip>
I wonder, idly, what the editorialist thinks of McCain's near continuous flips and flops on issues over the years.
Laerod
04-07-2008, 16:55
I wonder, idly, what the editorialist thinks of McCain's near continuous flips and flops on issues over the years.That he's Decider-material. ;)
The Atlantian islands
04-07-2008, 16:58
Should have picked a better quote. Picking that particular quote was pure unintented comedy waiting for someone to notice.
No. It made my point. The author listed 5 things, of which the flag pin was obviously the least important, yet the only one jumped upon my NSG....while all the other serious topics were being avoided and ignored. If one can take some comedy out of that, more power to him because we all love comedy....however, my post still stands.
[QUOTE]You replying to my post implies that you're addressing me.
Call to power also said something about the flag pin. Don't assume.
You're inclusiuon of the words "casting your vote" implies you're talking about people casting their votes.
It means that if one were to vote for someone who is constantly shifting his views and giving us no idea of what he will actually be like if elected, it would be as sure of a vote as if one casted his vote in the dark. Again, don't play dumb.

Is that like a funny bone? You know, not wrong, not a bong...
?
The Atlantian islands
04-07-2008, 17:00
I wonder, idly, what the editorialist thinks of McCain's near continuous flips and flops on issues over the years.
Hopefully he thinks that McCain will be terrible President who will hopefully die in office leaving a good V.P. choice to be President....
Dregruk
04-07-2008, 17:01
I wonder, idly, what the editorialist thinks of McCain's near continuous flips and flops on issues over the years.

A bastion of adaptive learning in the ever-changing field of politics. You know who doesn't change? A MUSLIM! You want a Muslim in power?

Christ, it's far too easy to talk shite.
Free Soviets
04-07-2008, 17:02
I wonder, idly, what the editorialist thinks of McCain's near continuous flips and flops on issues over the minutes.

fixed.

also, the answer is "IOKIYAR"
Laerod
04-07-2008, 17:03
No. It made my point. The author listed 5 things, of which the flag pin was obviously the least important, yet the only one jumped upon my NSG....while all the other serious topics were being avoided and ignored. If one can take some comedy out of that, more power to him because we all love comedy....however, my post still stands....as a monument of your shame...
Call to power also said something about the flag pin. Don't assume.Quote him next time then. Or clarify. Not my fault you were ambiguous and I picked the most logical conclusion. Though technically, if it was adressed at everyone, that would include me.
It means that if one were to vote for someone who is constantly shifting his views and giving us no idea of what he will actually be like if elected, it would be as sure of a vote as if one casted his vote in the dark. Again, don't play dumb.So why did you say voting didn't matter then, if voting is what it's all about?
?Apparently not.
The Atlantian islands
04-07-2008, 17:07
Laerod you playing around and trying to avoid the issues is fun, but unfortunatly I'm not gonna waste anymore time on it.

Don't focus on the flag pin and ignore all the other issues. Recognize that you are picking the least important issue because you are too junior to discuss the "rather difficult" ones. If not. Prove me wrong.

Voting for a candidate who constantly shifts his policies and views makes one realize that one has no idea who/what one is actually voting in.

I don't expect you to actually debate that, but rather twist words...so, get on with it.
Laerod
04-07-2008, 17:13
Laerod you playing around and trying to avoid the issues is fun, but unfortunatly I'm not gonna waste anymore time on it.Your loss.
Don't focus on the flag pin and ignore all the other issues. Maybe you shouldn't have posted an editorial that uses it as the opening example.
Recognize that you are picking the least important issue because you are too junior to discuss the "rather difficult" ones. If not. Prove me wrong.Actually, I'm picking on the least important issue because A) I'm not voting for Obama, so none of the issues he flipflops will influence my voting, and B) anyone that turns the lapel pin issue into a valid issue deserves to be ridiculed, because it happens to be so unimportant it shouldn't have been mentioned in the first place.
Voting for a candidate who constantly shifts his policies and views makes one realize that one has no idea who/what one is actually voting in.Yeah. And it doesn't apply to me.
I don't expect you to actually debate that, but rather twist words...so, get on with it.What a hypocritical statement...
Cannot think of a name
04-07-2008, 17:16
I see the moderators are OK with TAI making other Obama threads and not posting them in the sticky election thread.

http://www.medgadget.com/archives/img/pacifier.jpg
Copiosa Scotia
04-07-2008, 17:19
"...Obama with last year's most liberal voting record in the Senate..."

i find it shocking - shocking! - that each and every democrat ever is always 'the most liberal whatever in the whatever'. truly an amazing coincidence.

Well, it's not exactly staged that way. It's more that candidates campaigning for the Presidency only have time to participate in the most important votes, so they end up voting with the party a higher percentage of the time. These studies always confuse Democratic party line voting with being "liberal," so that's the way it comes out.
Chumblywumbly
04-07-2008, 17:24
On a side note: TAI, get over yourself. Obama will move left again when he's in the White House, he'll make the US sane again, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Perhaps you should follow your own advice?


Stop focusing on the most minor of those issues. Typical leftist NSG repsonse.
... and a typical TAi response, waffling on about 'leftists'; whoever they are.

Look, you seem to be under the impression that anybody more socially liberal/economically left of yourself on NS:G is in love with Obama, and that posting an editorial attacking Obama is somehow hurting many posters' feelings. This is simply not the case. There's been multiple threads already where many posters, of all political stripes, have discussed their disillusionment in the prospect of Obama as President; myself included.

Reducing this to some attack on these indescribable 'leftists' is rather sad.
Heikoku 2
04-07-2008, 17:31
Perhaps you should follow your own advice?

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Who knows.
Chumblywumbly
04-07-2008, 17:39
Perhaps. Perhaps not. Who knows.
I'd like to suggest I do.

Posting arrogant, silly statements like the one I quoted doesn't contribute anything to the thread bar pushing it further down the path to nonsensical flaming.
Heikoku 2
04-07-2008, 17:45
I'd like to suggest I do.

Posting arrogant, silly statements like the one I quoted doesn't contribute anything to the thread bar pushing it further down the path to nonsensical flaming.

I'd be offended at being called arrogant if I were someone else who considers it a bad thing. As it is, why, thank you. ;)
Blouman Empire
04-07-2008, 18:53
Give them a break, TAI posted this 20 minutes ago. You're STILL sour about that time, which took WAY longer to close? Geez.

On a side note: TAI, get over yourself. Obama will move left again when he's in the White House, he'll make the US sane again, and there's nothing you can do about it.

But will the US be better off?
Gift-of-god
04-07-2008, 19:05
As I said, there is no point listening to Obama if you want to find out what his agenda is. His words only tell you what he wants you to believe his agenda is. To actually understand what he is going to do, one need only look here:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638
Skalvia
04-07-2008, 19:07
speak wonders about the American public if wearing some tacky pin wins votes doesn't it?

oh gawd can you imagine the horror of Mr Brown dressed as John Bull:eek:

Thats only certain parts of the American Public...the idiot, fearmongering, hiveminded Sheep...

Unfortunately, alot of them are concentrated here :(

I dont care if he wears one or not, long as he can do the job well...and although thats debatable, McCain would be a death nail...

I hate that theyre my only two options :mad:
Heikoku 2
04-07-2008, 19:08
But will the US be better off?

It and the world.
Copiosa Scotia
04-07-2008, 19:08
As I said, there is no point listening to Obama if you want to find out what his agenda is. His words only tell you what he wants you to believe his agenda is. To actually understand what he is going to do, one need only look here:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638

Oh my God! Banks, universities, law firms and high tech companies? The end is near!
Skalvia
04-07-2008, 19:10
Oh my God! Banks, universities, law firms and high tech companies? The end is near!

Dont you know? Christians dont believe in Banks, Universities, Laws, and Technology...

Those are the tools of Satan, lol...
Nodinia
04-07-2008, 19:10
TAI, why do you post editorials?

Is it because it is easier than posting an actual news article and then making your own arguments?


10-4.

I see the moderators are OK with TAI making other Obama threads and not posting them in the sticky election thread.

You may need this. (http://www.kontrastblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/nanos_cheese_product2.jpg)

i find it shocking - shocking! - that each and every democrat ever is always 'the most liberal whatever in the whatever'. truly an amazing coincidence..

Its similar to the difficulties the early church fathers encountered in expressing the difference, relationship and unity of the Father, the Son and The Holy Sprirt.
Knights of Liberty
04-07-2008, 20:08
I never understood why changing your mind was such a bad thing in American politics. I always prefered people who change their mind when they see new evidence to people who stick to the same positions despite overwhelming evidnece to the contrary.
Iniika
04-07-2008, 22:47
It doens't matter who you vote for. That person is either going to be a snake, a rat or a boob.

This can pretty much be applied to any election.
Skalvia
04-07-2008, 22:52
I never understood why changing your mind was such a bad thing in American politics. I always prefered people who change their mind when they see new evidence to people who stick to the same positions despite overwhelming evidnece to the contrary.

I always figured the same thing...its just that the Republican party thats against changing the Status Quo in anyway demonize people who actually want to improve things....

Crazy fuckers...
Ardchoille
04-07-2008, 23:33
TAI, you know there is a sticky for the American election. Use it.