NationStates Jolt Archive

So my friend and I were talking about home protection after her night shift (this was over breakfast) on Tuesday morning. Last Sunday she came over and ate supper with my family and for some odd reason, my dad decided to bring out his 12 gauge shotgun and my brother brought out his old .22 semi automatic rifle (that my parents kept because his wife doesn't like guns, and plus they have a child.). Anyways, this little get together sparked me and her to talk about guns and home protection.

What guns does NSG think is best to use for home protection?

Shotgun: Powerful and can take out more than one target because instead of shooting one bullet it sprays pellet, but range is short.

Handguns: Can be as powerful as the shotgun, can be ready to fire quicker and has a wider range of bullets that you can use. However, more bullets are needed when there's more than one criminal.

Rifle: Can be as powerful as the handguns, but depending on what kind of rifle you buy, you may have to cock it after each fire, and when you're in a hostile situation, every second counts. Also, can be as clumsy as the shotgun.

Me and her both agree with handguns with a home security system.
Bullets of choice: bullets that can fragment (or explode) once they're inside the target, unsure of the name.

So what say you of NSG on guns in the role of home protection?

I have a bat'leth and I'm not afraid to decapitate someone with it!

My home would be less safe with guns around right now.......on account of the children, who are curious and irresponsible and have super hero complexes.

I also have a security system and private security that patrols.

Well, children won't be a problem for me. However I do have a nephew and I may have another nephew or niece on the way. I do want them to sleep over at my house, so yea this will be a concern of mine.

I plan to take a night stand, and modify the bottom drawer to have a lock where all I have to do is run a card by the lock and it'll automatically unlock, lock. The card will stay on my person at all time. That way the guns will be safe from my nephews (or nieces) and I won't have to fumble with the keys if someone breaks in.

Bullets of choice: bullets that can fragment (or explode) once they're inside the target, unsure of the name.


Glaser slugs, basicly birdshot in a resin matrix. You can use a .22 just as easily managing the same knock down as a .45 without the recoil, get some cyanide paste from trappers supply stores and fill the hollow points with paste, dipping them in wax to cap afterward. one round in the pinky finger, no more burglar.

Actual armed private security protecting your house? That's cool. If a bit paranoid.

As for guns and children, locked doors and unaccessible boxes exist for a reason. As does gun-proofing your children.

As for the OP:

Shotguns do NOT in fact spray a whole bunch of people with pellets. At best you'll have a two-inch-sized group. However, at short range, shotguns have absolutely unrivaled stopping power.

Handguns are a living failure as home security goes, as they have smaller (and less powerful) ammunition than rifles. Handguns are designed to compromise firepower for size (less firepower, less size).

This page (http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am02-e.htm) lists the power of various pistol rounds.

This one (http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am03-e.htm) goes for rifles.

See the difference?

P.S. Using poisoned rounds of any kind is guaranteeed to give you a prison sentence.

P.P.S. The knock-down power of your pistol or rifle will NOT magically increase by using bird-shot or whatever nonsense in it.

Glaser slugs, basicly birdshot in a resin matrix. You can use a .22 just as easily managing the same knock down as a .45 without the recoil, get some cyanide paste from trappers supply stores and fill the hollow points with paste, dipping them in wax to cap afterward. one round in the pinky finger, no more burglar.

Ahh cool, thanks for supplying the name.

For me, I plan to get a .45 and get used to that and then get a .50 Desert Eagle.

For her, she wants a 9mm (She's a woman in blue), a .45 and as the same for me, once she get used to the .45, she'll get a .50 Desert Eagle.

My advice is to keep the gun in the room where you live/work when the nieces are at home, and lock it with a simple locking system (preferably an ordinary lock, no electronics) when they are sleeping over. That way the kids can't get it, and you make it simpler for yourself to open.

Actual armed private security protecting your house? That's cool. If a bit paranoid.

As for guns and children, locked doors and unaccessible boxes exist for a reason. As does gun-proofing your children.

Don't worry, we do plan to keep the guns under lock and key when they're not being used.

As for the OP:

Shotguns do NOT in fact spray a whole bunch of people with pellets. At best you'll have a two-inch-sized group. However, at short range, shotguns have absolutely unrivaled stopping power.

That's what we want really, stopping power. If someone breaks into our homes, we want to be able to stop them ASAP.

Handguns are a living failure as home security goes, as they have smaller (and less powerful) ammunition than rifles. Handguns are designed to compromise firepower for size (less firepower, less size).

This page (http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am02-e.htm) lists the power of various pistol rounds.

This one (http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am03-e.htm) goes for rifles.

See the difference?

P.S. Using poisoned rounds of any kind is guaranteeed to give you a prison sentence.

P.P.S. The knock-down power of your pistol or rifle will NOT magically increase by using bird-shot or whatever nonsense in it.

Trust me, we do not plan to poison our rounds, and really we just want to be able to go from getting to our guns and dropping the criminals in the shortest amount of time. That's why we chose the handguns and the bird-shot rounds.

P.S. Using poisoned rounds of any kind is guaranteeed to give you a prison sentence.


only if they find the body, a shovel and a big backyard or a handy wilderness should help :D

*notes to Wilgrove*

I advice seriously you shoot the gun (whichever gun it is), or a gun of similar make, before buying it.

If buying a pistol for home defense (which I would not do), buy the biggest-caliber pistol you can comfortably shoot.

Rationale:

If you cannot comfortably shoot it, you will not enjoy shooting it. Which means you will not train with it. Which is bad.

Further, ANY pistol round (save madness like Deagles) is underpowered as compared to rifle rounds, so you need to off-set this.

.45 is the generally accepted-best round for self-defense, and has been promoted by Jeff Cooper himself.

Actual armed private security protecting your house? That's cool. If a bit paranoid.
Well, my community, but still....it's just another person to call 911. He can't really do much, unless he fears his life or something.

Well, my community, but still....it's just another person to call 911. He can't really do much, unless he fears his life or something.

Which is where the whole Security things really fails at. I mean let's face it, they're nothing more than rent-a-cops with a flashlight. So, if they can't really do much...then why are you paying for them? For the false sense of security?

hat's why we chose the handguns and the bird-shot rounds

Bird-shot pistol rounds are a horribly bad idea. They actually have less stopping power than... anything else fired from a pistol.

What is generally recommended by the experts - I'm not an expert, just a columnist for firearms periodicals - is Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) ammunition, preferably from one of the big-name manufacturers (I.e. AVOID WOLF).

Well, my community, but still....it's just another person to call 911. He can't really do much, unless he fears his life or something.

Oh. That's... seriously worthless.

*notes to Wilgrove*

I advice seriously you shoot the gun (whichever gun it is), or a gun of similar make, before buying it.

Don't worry, I plan to visit several gun stores and ranges over the next few months firing every type and model of handguns.

Rationale:

If you cannot comfortably shoot it, you will not enjoy shooting it. Which means you will not train with it. Which is bad.

I agree.

Further, ANY pistol round (save madness like Deagles) is underpowered as compared to rifle rounds, so you need to off-set this.

.45 is the generally accepted-best round for self-defense, and has been promoted by Jeff Cooper himself.

Yep, that's why we both agreed on the .45 and the .50 DE. :)

Bird-shot pistol rounds are a horribly bad idea. They actually have less stopping power than... anything else fired from a pistol.

What is generally recommended by the experts - I'm not an expert, just a columnist for firearms periodicals - is Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) ammunition, preferably from one of the big-name manufacturers (I.e. AVOID WOLF).

How much stopping power does a JHP have?

for home security I don't have much right now being as I'm a teenager living at home with an anti-gun father. However, I would like to purchase an FN FAL for home protection purposes when I become enough to own my own house and rifle.

Plus, I can see a practical side to having a semi-auto FAL: 7.62x51mm NATO rounds should be decent for hunting.

Oh. That's... seriously worthless.

Not particularly, I mean legally he can shoot people for being on the property if he has the right set of circumstances. I don't really worry about it much though, he'll get them before they get to me and if he doesn't......I'll get them. Armed security can't do anything a civilian can't do. However, in my state, civilians have a lot of leeway when using deadly force.

How much stopping power does a JHP have?

JHP is not more effective due to having more joules in it - that's a function of weight and speed.

However, jacketed hollowpoints will flatten once they enter the other guy. Which means they will deliver most of their energy into the other guy, rather than drill him right through.

As does gun-proofing your children.

Well, if you're going to do that, be sure to dip the heel into the river, too. That's where the last person messed up.

JHP is not more effective due to having more joules in it - that's a function of weight and speed.

However, jacketed hollowpoints will flatten once they enter the other guy. Which means they will deliver most of their energy into the other guy, rather than drill him right through.

Well, as long as it can at least stop one guy, that's good enough for me.

The key word for both of us is "stopping power". The more stopping power a gun or bullet has, the more incline we are to use it.

Not an FN-FAL, too big, too heavy, too bulky and too long for a protection weapon. and the round will go right through the wall and through your neighbours. get a carbine or bullpup design, shorter and handier. somethign with .223 frangiable varmit cartridges with will fragment rather than ricochette when they hit something.

Not an FN-FAL, too big, too heavy, too bulky and too long for a protection weapon. and the round will go right through the wall and through your neighbours. get a carbine or bullpup design, shorter and handier. somethign with .223 frangiable varmit cartridges with will fragment rather than ricochette when they hit something.
In that case I'll take a Steyr AUG to go please. I always have held a soft spot for that rifle

Well, if you're going to do that, be sure to dip the heel into the river, too. That's where the last person messed up.


I'm referring to MAssad Ayoob's book.

Seriously, you're better off asking about this stuff at www.thefiringline.com.

Or www.thehighroad.org.

The first is run by Rich Lucibella, who publishes SWAT Magazine.

The second is run by Oleg Volk, who does those funny gun posters I sometimes post up on NSG.

The best value for your buck in home protection is a small yappy dog. Burglars hate them worse than pit bulls. Damn things will start yapping at the first sound they hear.

Of couse, I'd rather get robbed than live with a small yappy dog.

The best value for your buck in home protection is a small yappy dog. Burglars hate them worse than pit bulls. Damn things will start yapping at the first sound they hear.

Of couse, I'd rather get robbed than live with a small yappy dog.

Oh trust me, she has a chihuahua, and I am so glad I can turn off my hearing aid at night....

In that case I'll take a Steyr AUG to go please. I always have held a soft spot for that rifle

So do I, spent 5 years running around in Camo kit as a Cadet with the local army unit watching as we played with their rifles :P only reason I'm not in the army now is I'm too deaf and my eyesights too poor to pass the tests.

They're nice and easy to strip and maintain, and fairly accurate as well. Full Auto is a pain to hold steady, but the muzzle doesn't climb much, the force is pretty much down the line of recoil to the shoulder.

So do I, spent 5 years running around in Camo kit as a Cadet with the local army unit watching as we played with their rifles :P only reason I'm not in the army now is I'm too deaf and my eyesights too poor to pass the tests.

They're nice and easy to strip and maintain, and fairly accurate as well. Full Auto is a pain to hold steady, but the muzzle doesn't climb much, the force is pretty much down the line of recoil to the shoulder.
Out of curiosity, what part of the world do you hail from?

guns protect nothing. only get their users into serious trouble or dead.

my solar roofed earth bermed A.I. enhanced house recognizes its occupants by their mental patterns. guests it welcomes but watches closely. it fallows asamov's 'laws' of robotics. it can, does and has, interviened effectively in emergency situations, including those involving hostile nonresidents.

the details are on a need to know basis of course, but needless to say, conventional fire arms were not involved nor needed.

let us say the miscrients were delivered to the appropriate authorities properly 'packaged'. those that weren't in something of a hurry to leave when they woke up.

=^^=
.../\...

Well, my community, but still....it's just another person to call 911. He can't really do much, unless he fears his life or something.

Oh. That's... seriously worthless.

It all depends on how much security the community is willing to pay for. I know of one which has a half dozen security guards on 24 hour patrol, security stations with entryway barriers at all access roads and another station deeper inside the community. All stations have CCTV, are connected to one another and have hotlines to emergency services. This is not counting local home security systems, often CCTVs, motion sensors and floodlights.

Guns are OK, but not ideal because of ammo constraints. Ideally you'd want a large, heavy melee weapon capable of either removing the head or destroying the brain, an amount of body armor to protect against bites and scratches, and several similarly-equipped team members.

We are talking zombies, right?

Out of curiosity, what part of the world do you hail from?

New Zealand. The NZCC, New Zealand Cadet Corps, along with the ATC (Air Training Corps) and SCC (Sea Cadet Corps) make up the NZCF, New Zealand Cadet Forces. Which in turn is part of the NZDF, or New Zealand Defence Forces.

Being a formal recognised part of the Defence forces made things pretty simple when it came to access to military bases, use of military equipment like the Steyr AUG and 105mm howitzers and Unimogs.

I was a member of the FHSCU (Fraser High School Cadet Unit) from 1994 to 1998, the last school based cadet unit in NZ. all the rest are area or town based.

We marched with the RSA and the community representatives every ANZAC day, and the different Hamilton cadet units (FHSCU and COHCU city of Hamilton Cadet Unit, No 7 (hamiton) Sqn ATC, and TS Rangiriri SCC) provided honour guards for the cenotaph for the main Dawn memorial ceremony

damn I wanna move to NZ now. We've got the JROTC (Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps) in school here but the most we do is ride in a Humvee for the Homecoming parade, and the battalion used to go up to a military base for summer camp before funding got rolled back (read: before the wars started).

What guns does NSG think is best to use for home protection?A squirt gun. With butyric acid.

I live in a civilised country

I live in a civilised country


you can rig up claymores to your home security system sensors?

Lucky you!

you can rig up claymores to your home security system sensors?

Lucky you!

You would have to be some kind of major idiot to think that would be a good idea.

You don't want to have a rifle for home defense, it's too clumsy in an enclosed space, though it is consistently more powerful than a handgun, due to the longer barrel (pressure stays behind the bullet longer, gets it going faster, even the same cartridge can be about 3 times as powerful).

Shotguns are clumsy for the same reason. Handguns have more constraints on them legally, but they make more sense when you have to use them in the confines of your home and aren't skilled enough to hit with the first shot.

Revolvers are safer, because they're less likely to backfire at all, and it's easier to be positive that they're unloaded (no accidents).

So my friend and I were talking about home protection after her night shift (this was over breakfast) on Tuesday morning. Last Sunday she came over and ate supper with my family and for some odd reason, my dad decided to bring out his 12 gauge shotgun and my brother brought out his old .22 semi automatic rifle (that my parents kept because his wife doesn't like guns, and plus they have a child.). Anyways, this little get together sparked me and her to talk about guns and home protection.

What guns does NSG think is best to use for home protection?

Shotgun: Powerful and can take out more than one target because instead of shooting one bullet it sprays pellet, but range is short.

Handguns: Can be as powerful as the shotgun, can be ready to fire quicker and has a wider range of bullets that you can use. However, more bullets are needed when there's more than one criminal.

Rifle: Can be as powerful as the handguns, but depending on what kind of rifle you buy, you may have to cock it after each fire, and when you're in a hostile situation, every second counts. Also, can be as clumsy as the shotgun.

Me and her both agree with handguns with a home security system.
Bullets of choice: bullets that can fragment (or explode) once they're inside the target, unsure of the name.

So what say you of NSG on guns in the role of home protection?

Hmm... let's see... we've got a lock on the door.

Shotguns are your best bet.

But I prefer to go with a more non-lethal means: my bo staff.

...

Okay, so it's actually capable of killing people, but it can at least TRY to keep them alive, and that's the important thing, right? I mean it's not like we actually have a reliable non-lethal method of stopping people anyway.

Hmm... let's see... we've got a lock on the door.

We have cats :)

Who aren't afraid to meow..!

You would have to be some kind of major idiot to think that would be a good idea.

And you can't manage to sense sarcasm without a smiley face...


Civilisation doesn't stop burglars, thugs, muggers and murderers. Civilisation is (hopefully) the norm and those things are aberrations and abnormalities. and EVERY civilisation has it's aberrations and abnormalities.

Just because you live somewhere doesn't mean theres not an asshole near you eyeing your door and windows.

And you can't manage to sense sarcasm without a smiley face...


Civilisation doesn't stop burglars, thugs, muggers and murderers. Civilisation is (hopefully) the norm and those things are aberrations and abnormalities. and EVERY civilisation has it's aberrations and abnormalities.

Just because you live somewhere doesn't mean theres not an asshole near you eyeing your door and windows.

Are you still being sarcastic, because the tone is still the same?

We have cats :)

Who aren't afraid to meow..!

We've got them, too. And nosey neighbours.
And f***-all worth stealing.
And we live in a civilised country.

What more could you need to protect yourself? And what from, more importantly?

Civilisation doesn't stop burglars, thugs, muggers and murderers.Maybe if we try World of Warcraft instead.


Of course, the problem is that burglars, thugs, muggers and murderers aren't civilized. If they were, you could just politely ask them to leave and they'd be forced to oblige on grounds of civility.

Civilized axe murderer: "I say, old chap. Do you mind if i brutally murder you and wear you carcass as a coat?"
Civilized victim: "Why, I'd be honored, but unfortunately I have a pressing prior engagement. If you give me your card, I'll give you a ring the moment I'm available."

you can rig up claymores to your home security system sensors?That'd be so cool, hooking up swords to your security system.

Unfortunately, I suspect you actually mean the antipersonnel mines.

Bullets of choice: bullets that can fragment (or explode) once they're inside the target, unsure of the name.
From the looks of it, you're not just planning to stop the intruder, but to elicit as blood-curdling a scream (indicating pain) as possible. Now there's a person who can be trusted with lethal weapons! *sarcasm*

Anyway, good luck in finding that shit. :rolleyes:

And you can't manage to sense sarcasm without a smiley face...


Civilisation doesn't stop burglars, thugs, muggers and murderers. Civilisation is (hopefully) the norm and those things are aberrations and abnormalities. and EVERY civilisation has it's aberrations and abnormalities.

Just because you live somewhere doesn't mean theres not an asshole near you eyeing your door and windows.

*looks around herself*

You know what? For the most part, it does.
Besides, when it comes to murder, you'd be better off being wary of the people already IN your house, rather than intruders.

Hmm... let's see... we've got a lock on the door.

Yeah, this has been working well for me so far too.

Oh, and I live somewhere where guns aren't freely available, so the criminals don't really have them either. So they're much more likely to run at the slightest noise than cause any trouble.

Which is where the whole Security things really fails at. I mean let's face it, they're nothing more than rent-a-cops with a flashlight. So, if they can't really do much...then why are you paying for them? For the false sense of security?

I happen to be a "Rent-a-cop" and altho im embaresed to say there are far to many stereotypical fat, poorly dressed and hardly trained security officers out there. There are also allot of security officers such as myself who have undergone riguras training in self defense, Tactical manuvours, handcuffing, baton use, edged weapon disarming, Emergencey medical first responders training, communications. The list goes on. The point is were out there encountering the same dangers as police for less pay. We all have our reasons why were not in the police force, mine is i love the security industry.
Dont put tag on all of us, you never know when it will be a "Rent-a-cop" coming to your aid when you need it the most.

I would rather have a thief stealing my stuff then having to kill them, a life is far more precious then my TV and computer... and for murderers, if they really wanted to kill me it wouldn't matter much if I had a gun or not...

So my friend and I were talking about home protection after her night shift (this was over breakfast) on Tuesday morning. Last Sunday she came over and ate supper with my family and for some odd reason, my dad decided to bring out his 12 gauge shotgun and my brother brought out his old .22 semi....

I got this far, reading the tag before i opened this topic, and knew it'd be American... *headdesk*

geez Wilgrove, ever think you should just put up some locks on those doors and windows?

Anyway, good luck in finding that shit. :rolleyes:


http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/glaser.htm
http://yp.bellsouth.com/sites/magsafeammo/

So my friend and I were talking about home protection after her night shift (this was over breakfast) on Tuesday morning. Last Sunday she came over and ate supper with my family and for some odd reason, my dad decided to bring out his 12 gauge shotgun and my brother brought out his old .22 semi automatic rifle (that my parents kept because his wife doesn't like guns, and plus they have a child.). Anyways, this little get together sparked me and her to talk about guns and home protection.

What guns does NSG think is best to use for home protection?

Shotgun: Powerful and can take out more than one target because instead of shooting one bullet it sprays pellet, but range is short.

Handguns: Can be as powerful as the shotgun, can be ready to fire quicker and has a wider range of bullets that you can use. However, more bullets are needed when there's more than one criminal.

Rifle: Can be as powerful as the handguns, but depending on what kind of rifle you buy, you may have to cock it after each fire, and when you're in a hostile situation, every second counts. Also, can be as clumsy as the shotgun.

Me and her both agree with handguns with a home security system.
Bullets of choice: bullets that can fragment (or explode) once they're inside the target, unsure of the name.

So what say you of NSG on guns in the role of home protection?

Your information about the shotgun at "inside the house" ranges is a myth. Shotguns, even with buckshot, experience overpenetration of wallboard, which is bad.

Pistols are surprisingly unreliable as weapons to instantly stop people (they can be lethal, but it takes more time than other weapons, and time is not a luxury you can afford in close combat situations).

A rifle loaded with 5.56mm ammunition can be had with a fairly short barrel (16 inches legally in the US), and with Hornady TAP ammunition, will never overpenetrate wallboard (not even a single sheet), and at the same time will be incredibly efficient at instantly stopping someone provided you hit them center chest or in the head.

If you have a suppressor as I do, you won't even wake your neighbors.

I live in the midlands and to add to that an area which is more or less a cemetery when you look at average age

I have never seen a reason to lock my doors

It all depends on how much security the community is willing to pay for. I know of one which has a half dozen security guards on 24 hour patrol, security stations with entryway barriers at all access roads and another station deeper inside the community. All stations have CCTV, are connected to one another and have hotlines to emergency services. This is not counting local home security systems, often CCTVs, motion sensors and floodlights.

ah, the wonders of gated communities :p

Keep it simple.
If you will put the time in to train/practice properly, you have a lot of interesting options with rifled firearms (big or small).
If you have minimal time or inclination, get a smoothbore (shotgun).

Currently I have a .357 Python I shoot with periodically, a .22 cal. Remington I go out and have fun with targets, and a 12 gauge Mossberg I got from my Dad, all at home (with two kids under 5 years old). Given a chance I would grab the Mossberg for home defense, no questions asked.

(Why you ask? I'd mess my pants if I heard the pump action coming from somewhere near me and I didn't know where or why. Psychology works on me at least.)

Man am I happy that I don't live in the states with the amount of gun-nuts in there... Not aimed at anyone on this thread particularly though.

Personally I think having gun in your home is more likely to get you or your relative killed wrether or not any possible robbers are armed or not. If they just want to steal your stuff they'd probably at most tie you up and make it away with your money etc., while if you're armed it's either you or them dead most likely. I'd rather not take the chance of dying myself or getting a relative killed :rolleyes:

You can keep this macho "I'm gonna kill anyone who dares enter my house" bullshit going but chances are you'd die yourself. Not to mention that even if you do manage to kill the robber you'd probably do more harm (and thus expenditures) to your house than what the robbers would be able to carry out, especially if you use a shotgun :p

very few people have guns round here, so i don't feel the need for that kind of protection. the only time i've seen guns is when the police or army are about, come to think of it.

our home protection is locking our doors. you occasionally hear stories of pensioners being attacked during a burglary, but not that often. if i had to i'd use a large knife to defend myself, but violent intrusions seem to be rare. robberies happen, of course, but don't seem to get violent that often. we got burgled once, about 10 years ago. when he heard we were in he bolted right out the window he came in through, and we subsequently replaced the window with one with a better lock :p

if an intruder did come into my house, and did have a gun, i think i would surrender rather than risk anything stupid. that's what insurance is for. and the police.

I own a Mossberg and a .45 and I heartily recommend both. Don't bother with fancy ammunition, that's for amateurs and the kind of people who hold a handgun sideways when they shoot it.(Apropos of that: They put the sights on the top for a reason. Idiots.) The regular bullets work just fine, if you know where to put them.

I've never seen the point of the Desert Eagle. It manages to be, at the same time, too much gun, and not enough.

The Rent-A-Cops who watch the building where I live carry 12 gauge shotguns...

I thought that was normal...I see it isn't.

And yes, even more if you turn off your hearing aid at night, more likely you will result killed in an incident inside your home. That is why I purchased and trained with my handgun for fire from my car, and from my purse, not in my house. If someone reaches to my home, who is in a 9th floor inside a building guarded by armed security guards, and the apartment is protected with a multilock siberian steel door and two metallic fences with iron fences on all windows, I'm pretty much fucked, the gun is worthless. I'm being assaulted by either commandos or ninjas.

So far, the gun goes to a safe in my room when I arrive home. I don't ever think I will ever use it inside my apartment.

I subscribe to the Home Alone school of home protection.

Also, I live in Eastern Canada and no one locks their doors anyway.

If someone reaches to my home, who is in a 9th floor inside a building guarded by armed security guards, and the apartment is protected with a multilock siberian steel door and two metallic fences with iron fences on all windows, I'm pretty much fucked, the gun is worthless. I'm being assaulted by either commandos or ninjas.

or someone who notices that when you tumbled home drunk you left your door ajar...or someone with the key :p

If i lived somewhere that allowed guns for home defence and more importantly if I really thought there was really a need for it, like if I was living in Raccoon City or Tombstone, Arizona c. 1881, or something, and speaking from a position of ignorance, then I'd probably go for an M1 carbine. More stopping power, more intimidating and easier to handle when you're a bit nervous than a handgun, but shorter, lighter and handier than most rifles or shotguns.

If you have a suppressor as I do, you won't even wake your neighbors.

Aren't suppressors illegal?


ah, the wonders of gated communities :p

It's not. A gated community is built inside a walled compound. This one was built in a relatively undeveloped area decades ago, and two bridges had to be built for anyone wanting to access the area unless they wanted to go swimming in the ravine. Access from the North is through a cemetery followed by two sets of unbroken perimeter walls, one for the cemetery, the other the houses on that area, followed by the very thick undergrowth in between. Access from the South is also unlikely. It's a very large privately owned land with no road access, and again blocked off by 20ft tall fencing. The area is also regularly kept clear of vegetation, meaning its a wide, open field and all houses facing that area have floodlights in that direction. Access from the West is impossible without a helicopter or rappelling gear. It's sheer a cliff face, no roads, and as I understand it, the surface soil that isn't rock is very loose.

Originally, there was only one security station located near the inner part of the community, and blocked off the only access point going deeper. There was only one guard at any one time though, and it wasn't very successful at stopping burglaries. The residents got fed up with that and added the additional security layers and doubled the normal complement of guards per station.

As far as I can tell, it's worked.

or someone who notices that when you tumbled home drunk you left your door ajar...or someone with the key :p

If I left three doors ajar, even if drunk, something is wrong with me. Plus, the security guard at the lobby would figure out someone is following me. Plus, you need a key to either enter the stairs and a eletronical device to activate and use the elevator.

When any of the keys of the house goes missing. (It has happened before), we change each and every lock.

Aren't suppressors illegal?


No.

In the US, if you file for a license with the ATF, and you aren't a previously convicted felon, you can pay a one-time tax and get any suppressor (or as many) as you like.

If I left three doors ajar, even if drunk, something is wrong with me. Plus, the security guard at the lobby would figure out someone is following me. Plus, you need a key to either enter the stairs and a eletronical device to activate and use the elevator. When any of the keys of the house goes missing. (It has happened before), we change each and every lock.

Good grief, what are you, in the Witness Protection Program or something? I've got a outer screen door with a busted hinge and a deadbolt on a inner wooden door. And, of course, the aforementioned firearms.

Good grief, what are you, in the Witness Protection Program or something? I've got a outer screen door with a busted hinge and a deadbolt on a inner wooden door. And, of course, the aforementioned firearms.

I don't live in the same country as you do.

The security measures I am speaking about are completely common in every building in this city. It is a dangerous city, so people take precautions. Even with those precautions, things happen.

In Venezuela, there are places with even more tight security measures. Most parking places in buildings are surrounded by eletrical fences or swiss blades. Some buildings have four armed security guards on duty 24/7/365. People have alarm systems inside their houses that detonates through motion sensors when something enters the backyard. Public parking uses camera systems that notice if the driver who is leaving with the car is the same who entered driving it.

Caracas is known as the "walled city". Even if you live in a 10th floor, you put iron bars in each and every window. Once a band of criminals were known by their use of rappel equipment to assault apartments. No private garden or park lacks a fence, either with barbwire or the aforementioned swiss blades at the top. Buildings are like little fortresses.

Even then, it is not safe. Even then, I carry a handgun, for example.

You don't want to have a rifle for home defense, it's too clumsy in an enclosed space, though it is consistently more powerful than a handgun, due to the longer barrel (pressure stays behind the bullet longer, gets it going faster, even the same cartridge can be about 3 times as powerful).

Shotguns are clumsy for the same reason. Handguns have more constraints on them legally, but they make more sense when you have to use them in the confines of your home and aren't skilled enough to hit with the first shot.

Revolvers are safer, because they're less likely to backfire at all, and it's easier to be positive that they're unloaded (no accidents).


Not all shotguns are clumsy. I think this might work well (although it is an NFA item): http://www.internationalpolicesupply.net/870mcs_10.jpg

From the looks of it, you're not just planning to stop the intruder, but to elicit as blood-curdling a scream (indicating pain) as possible. Now there's a person who can be trusted with lethal weapons! *sarcasm*

Anyway, good luck in finding that shit. :rolleyes:

It's called frangible ammunition. Glaser safety slugs are one of the more popular models. It's designed so it won't over penetrate through the walls of your house/apartment. It can stop an intruder by imparting all of its kinetic energy into the intruder, whereas a normal bullet may pass through the intruder, retaining some/much of its kinetic energy.

My door is outfitted with an arcane device known informally as a "lock". And I live on the fourteenth floor, so nobody will be coming in the windows.

Were I to live in a house, I would outfit it with a simple burglar alarm that mimics a klaxon or police siren by making sufficient noise and flashing lights to scare off a potential burglar and alert the neighbours. After all, it's rather unlikely that people will attempt to rob my house while I'm in it, so all the guns in the world won't help when I'm not at home to use them (in fact, they're more likely to be stolen and end up in the hands of criminals).

you can rig up claymores to your home security system sensors?

Lucky you!

Where do you go to get claymores anyway? I didn't see any in my local gun shop.

As for shotguns, I think sawed-offs have wider spread if there's more than one guy, but they get the Feds after you if they're seen so there's a tradeoff. Rifles don't have that problem, but you'll want something that can't go through walls - this isn't Iraq and it's not OK to shoot indiscriminately without concern for civilian lives. :)

Ideally, you'll want a pistol that can break through light body armour as some criminals will get it, and put the guy down. Failing that, go to the range every day and practise until you can score head shots consistently.

Man am I happy that I don't live in the states with the amount of gun-nuts in there... Not aimed at anyone on this thread particularly though.

Personally I think having gun in your home is more likely to get you or your relative killed wrether or not any possible robbers are armed or not. If they just want to steal your stuff they'd probably at most tie you up and make it away with your money etc., while if you're armed it's either you or them dead most likely. I'd rather not take the chance of dying myself or getting a relative killed :rolleyes:

You can keep this macho "I'm gonna kill anyone who dares enter my house" bullshit going but chances are you'd die yourself. Not to mention that even if you do manage to kill the robber you'd probably do more harm (and thus expenditures) to your house than what the robbers would be able to carry out, especially if you use a shotgun :p

I have a firearm in my apartment, but the only way someone other than me is getting it is with a plasma cutter or oxy/acetylene torch, some bolt cutters, and a drill (my rifle has a trigger lock on it, in a padded case with a combination lock on it, inside a gun safe). If someone breaks into my apartment, it would take too long for me to get it. I could just grab my Louisville Slugger if I was home when/if someone kicks my door in.

Ideally, you'll want a pistol that can break through light body armour as some criminals will get it, and put the guy down. Failing that, go to the range every day and practise until you can score head shots consistently.

Are you people into stopping or into killing?

I use a glock 17, for the following reasons:
1: reliable, less than 1:10,000 rounds misfire.
2: 17 rounds, enough to stop anyone, the whole point of semi-auto is that you don't kill them with one shot, you fire five or six at him, which is enough to stop anyone not vested (though at home defense ranges, even that won't do you much good.)
3: the 9mm offers little kick, and tears a large-ish hole in people, especially with hollow point rounds.

To anyone who thinks locks, alarms, or private security will protect you: All of them can, and have been bypassed. Locks can be picked, alarms disabled, and private security is only human. Plus, most criminals will run if you're armed, few will shoot back.

Are you people into stopping or into killing?

Well, in the US (and now, Israel) there's the Castle Doctrine that allows you to shoot intruders in your home. If it's me or some robber / rapist (gay?) / murderer, I'm going to shoot the bad guy. I put head shots up there because even the thickest body armour doesn't protect against those, and criminals do have it occasionally. Even the police aren't normally prepared for body armour.

Of course, you've got to use your judgement on a case-by-case basis. If you can stop a guy by, say, pulling an alarm or firing a warning shot, by all means do so, but be prepared for an escalation.

Rolling squid;13811700']I use a glock 17, for the following reasons:
1: reliable, less than 1:10,000 rounds misfire.
2: 17 rounds, enough to stop anyone, the whole point of semi-auto is that you don't kill them with one shot, you fire five or six at him, which is enough to stop anyone not vested (though at home defense ranges, even that won't do you much good.)
3: the 9mm offers little kick, and tears a large-ish hole in people, especially with hollow point rounds.

To anyone who thinks locks, alarms, or private security will protect you: All of them can, and have been bypassed. Locks can be picked, alarms disabled, and private security is only human. Plus, most criminals will run if you're armed, few will shoot back.


While I give you reason about your point regarding the handgun. I do not agree with you in the security part. Locks, alarms, and private security works, the criminals usually go for the easier job, not the most difficult one. Having to fool a security guard, disarm an alarm, destroy a steel coded door...Those are just too hard difficulties for criminals. They will go and find some place easier. Unless the reward is big enough, but most apartments are not banks, are just apartments. For them is usually easier to rob cars.

They can fail indeed, but in any case, you can fail too, the gun can jam, you can miss the shots, or the criminal can be faster drawing his weapon, so follwing your logic here there is no case in holding a firearm.

Run when they see a gun? The criminals in your country, I guess, or unarmed criminals. Here, if you pull out a firearm, they do not run, they go all for it. Usually because they feel endangered, and the gun is an additional prize.

I've never been burgled and I don't consider it likely enough for me to bother to "go to the range every day and practise". Anyway, there's an easier way to reduce the likelihood of being robbed, but I guess giving poor people opporunities is unAmerican.

Aren't suppressors illegal?

Federally, suppressors are restricted under the NFA act of 1934. It is possible for civilians to get one, by purchasing one (the retailer will need to hold onto it until you get your paperwork back), filling out the appropriate forms (with the suppressor's serial number on it), getting the paperwork signed off by the Chief Law Enforcement Officer in your area*, get fingerprinted and photographed, and mailing all that and a $200 check to the BATFE. Once they send the tax stamp back, you can pick up your suppressor. That is, assuming that suppressors are legal under local and state laws.


*There is a way around the CLEO signoff, by forming a trust or corporation.

No.

In the US, if you file for a license with the ATF, and you aren't a previously convicted felon, you can pay a one-time tax and get any suppressor (or as many) as you like.

Actually, I believe you would need to purchase a tax stamp for each and every NFA item.

Well, in the US (and now, Israel) there's the Castle Doctrine that allows you to shoot intruders in your home. If it's me or some robber / rapist (gay?) / murderer, I'm going to shoot the bad guy. I put head shots up there because even the thickest body armour doesn't protect against those, and criminals do have it occasionally. Even the police aren't normally prepared for body armour.

Of course, you've got to use your judgement on a case-by-case basis. If you can stop a guy by, say, pulling an alarm or firing a warning shot, by all means do so, but be prepared for an escalation.

Look, I made my handgun course to learn to use the thing, and the first thing they told me was to aim for the chest, not the head. Your aim is usually try to stop or disable your attacker, not to kill him. At close range, and with the rate of fire of a normal handgun, is pretty silly to aim for the head. Body armour? Just a handful of them will have it, so I won't be increasing my chances of missing just trying to achieve a higher killing rate.

Are you people into stopping or into killing?

Sometimes, to stop an intruder, you're going to have to kill him.

By the way, at home range, if you shoot a guy in the chest, even if the bullets do not penetrate, you are going to wind the guy and maul his ribs badly, incapacitating him. No need to go for the head.

I don't live in the same country as you do.

The security measures I am speaking about are completely common in every building in this city. It is a dangerous city, so people take precautions. Even with those precautions, things happen.

In Venezuela, there are places with even more tight security measures. Most parking places in buildings are surrounded by eletrical fences or swiss blades. Some buildings have four armed security guards on duty 24/7/365. People have alarm systems inside their houses that detonates through motion sensors when something enters the backyard. Public parking uses camera systems that notice if the driver who is leaving with the car is the same who entered driving it.

Caracas is known as the "walled city". Even if you live in a 10th floor, you put iron bars in each and every window. Once a band of criminals were known by their use of rappel equipment to assault apartments. No private garden or park lacks a fence, either with barbwire or the aforementioned swiss blades at the top. Buildings are like little fortresses.

Even then, it is not safe. Even then, I carry a handgun, for example.

man i'm glad i don't live there. though i wouldn't mind a little more protection (or at least cctv) for my car on the street...

Sometimes, to stop an intruder, you're going to have to kill him.

That doesn't mean your initial intention should be stopping him. If he ends killed, well served, but you shouldn't think on the kill first.

Aaaaand I've just marked Caracas off my 'Places it's a good idea to vacation in' list. I like a bit of excitement, but that sounds like altogther too good a time.

Are you people into stopping or into killing?

I'd prefer stopping, but if it comes down to me or him, I know which one I'm going to choose.

Which is where the whole Security things really fails at. I mean let's face it, they're nothing more than rent-a-cops with a flashlight. So, if they can't really do much...then why are you paying for them? For the false sense of security?

They can't do anything legally that I can't do. Legally I can shoot someone if I feel threatened, and so can he. He happens to be awake when I'm not, home when I'm not, and indtimidating to random bad people, and I'm not. He also is a trained first responder, so a few weeks ago when a kid fell in the community pool and needed CPR he was there and performing before her parents even found the cell phone in the bottom of the diaper bag.

We are safer with him around, just not 100% safe, which you can't be, ever.

They can't do anything legally that I can't do. Legally I can shoot someone if I feel threatened, and so can he. He happens to be awake when I'm not, home when I'm not, and indtimidating to random bad people, and I'm not. He also is a trained first responder, so a few weeks ago when a kid fell in the community pool and needed CPR he was there and performing before her parents even found the cell phone in the bottom of the diaper bag.

We are safer with him around, just not 100% safe, which you can't be, ever.

Couldn't agree more with Smunkee.

(And remember, when I agree with Smunkee, the world trembles).

While I give you reason about your point regarding the handgun. I do not agree with you in the security part. Locks, alarms, and private security works, the criminals usually go for the easier job, not the most difficult one. Having to fool a security guard, disarm an alarm, destroy a steel coded door...Those are just too hard difficulties for criminals. They will go and find some place easier. Unless the reward is big enough, but most apartments are not banks, are just apartments. For them is usually easier to rob cars.

Right, most crooks will take the insecure place, but some do go for the high security areas, figuring that they have more to steal, they just like the challenge, what have you.


They can fail indeed, but in any case, you can fail too, the gun can jam, you can miss the shots, or the criminal can be faster drawing his weapon, so follwing your logic here there is no case in holding a firearm.

Except that having the firearm gives you one line of defence against the bad guys.


Run when they see a gun? The criminals in your country, I guess, or unarmed criminals. Here, if you pull out a firearm, they do not run, they go all for it. Usually because they feel endangered, and the gun is an additional prize.

You're right, most of the crime around here is smash and grab stuff, who don't carry guns because of the laws. Against a rapist, murderer, or hardened thief, a gun won't scare them off, but it will stop them.

A few things to keep in mind folks.

The 9mm has been in use all over the world for as long as the US had the 45 ACP in military use. The US Police forces had been using the .38/.357 till the mid 80's.

When I was a police officer I had qualified with the .38, 9mm and .45. Looking at the information about shootings that was available to law enforcement, most of the "bad" guys use 9mm and below, because they are easy to conceal. Therefore, what you have to really consider is your marksmanship. Remember that the favorite weapon of the mafia enforcer is the .22 since they are very quiet.

If you are going to own any type of firearm, you need to spend a lot of time at the range. Being able to place your shots where you want them should be second nature. You should not be thinking where the shots are going to land, it should be automatic. I shoot about 400 rounds a month practicing with my primary carry weapon. The more you practice, the less likely you will miss. Also, shoot some combat courses, in which they put you under stress. The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in combat.

... a big dog and an alarm system?

... a big dog and an alarm system?

A sword works for me. After all indoors defines close quarters.

Living in a poor district of inner London, having some decent locks, not taking the ground floor apartment, and having some common sense is a real bonus. I'm not into killing people. I lived for years though pointless and bloody violence, and it's not something I want to go back to, ever.

If you have a high squirrel population in the area, perhaps you can train them to recognize and attack strangers. Then you can have a high-pitched alarm on your door that only they can hear. When someone breaks into your house at night, from out of the shadows, the squirrels strike....

They tend to go for the nuts first. :)

If you have a high squirrel population in the area, perhaps you can train them to recognize and attack strangers. Then you can have a high-pitched alarm on your door that only they can hear. When someone breaks into your house at night, from out of the shadows, the squirrels strike....

They tend to go for the nuts first. :)

You know, you just gave away your plan for world domination, right?;)

If you have a high squirrel population in the area, perhaps you can train them to recognize and attack strangers. Then you can have a high-pitched alarm on your door that only they can hear. When someone breaks into your house at night, from out of the shadows, the squirrels strike....

They tend to go for the nuts first. :)

Especially those Brixton crack squirrels
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/oct/08/drugsandalcohol.patrickbarkham

You know, you just gave away your plan for world domination, right?;)

That's just the diversion. The real attack will come by..... ...aaah! Almost got me.

You'll just have to wait and see. :)

That's just the diversion. The real attack will come by..... ...aaah! Almost got me.

You'll just have to wait and see. :)

Damn! I guess I'll have to try again.

Weasel. Squirrels. Hmm. I may be on to something here.:cool:

A sword works for me. After all indoors defines close quarters.


Hard to swing a sword in a house with an average ceiling, though. If it gets stuck in the tiles or stucco or what have you, you're pretty much leaving your middle open to be gutted or shot, or kicked or tickled. If you're gonna fight with a blade in doors, you're better off using something smaller like... a butter knife! or a SPOON! They'll never see it coming before you scoop out their eyes like so much icecream.

Hard to swing a sword in a house with an average ceiling, though. If it gets stuck in the tiles or stucco or what have you, you're pretty much leaving your middle open to be gutted or shot, or kicked or tickled. If you're gonna fight with a blade in doors, you're better off using something smaller like... a butter knife! or a SPOON! They'll never see it coming before you scoop out their eyes like so much icecream.

Swords are pretty inefficient weapons anyway. Try a pike.

Hard to swing a sword in a house with an average ceiling, though. If it gets stuck in the tiles or stucco or what have you, you're pretty much leaving your middle open to be gutted or shot, or kicked or tickled. If you're gonna fight with a blade in doors, you're better off using something smaller like... a butter knife! or a SPOON! They'll never see it coming before you scoop out their eyes like so much icecream.

Try a gladius. It was designed for use in close quarters. The problem with using swords comes down to finding a good one.

We tend to keep hatchets close at hand for any unlucky intruder.

Hard to swing a sword in a house with an average ceiling, though. If it gets stuck in the tiles or stucco or what have you, you're pretty much leaving your middle open to be gutted or shot, or kicked or tickled. If you're gonna fight with a blade in doors, you're better off using something smaller like... a butter knife! or a SPOON! They'll never see it coming before you scoop out their eyes like so much icecream.

Swords aren't that hard to use, even indoors.

Hard to swing a sword in a house with an average ceiling, though. If it gets stuck in the tiles or stucco or what have you, you're pretty much leaving your middle open to be gutted or shot, or kicked or tickled. If you're gonna fight with a blade in doors, you're better off using something smaller like... a butter knife! or a SPOON! They'll never see it coming before you scoop out their eyes like so much icecream.

Don't swing, stab. Much harder to hit the ceiling when you're stabbing at someone.