NationStates Jolt Archive

Related to recent threads about rape and victim culpability. Rape is "easy" to define when it's done by a stranger and done by force, but what about when the lines aren't as clear?


Situation A: Sarah is married with children. She and her husband generally get on all right and have regular, consensual sex. However, her husband is an alcoholic and a nasty character when he's on a bender. Sarah's husband comes home drunk one night and demands to have sex with her. Sarah is not interested and refuses him, but he persists and becomes forceful. Sarah, afraid of having the situation escalate, gives way and allows him to have sex with her, though she does not want to. Is it rape?


Situation B: Jenny goes to a party at a friend's house where most of the guests are people she knows well. After far too many drinks, Jenny decides to stay the night at the house and passes out. She wakes up the next day to one of her male friends having sex with her. She freezes up and doesn't move as the man finishes having sex with her, although it is obvious that she is awake and not responding to what he's doing. Is it rape?


Situation C: Rachel, a college student, has just had a serious fight with her boyfriend and left his place quite angry. She goes to see a male friend of hers that she has some chemistry with, although up to this point they have only been good friends. They proceed to make out and then begin to have sex, but in the middle of everything Rachel realizes this is not a solution and not what she wants. She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated. Is it rape?


Poll to follow.

I almost think -- almost -- that if you have to ask, it probably is.

a) the hardest one for me to answer. I'm not sure.
b) yes.
c) ... yes. sort of?

The second one was easy, because she never consented to have sex in the first place.

The first one... I mean, I'd say it's a form of abuse, or *something*, but I don't know about rape.

The third... well, she consented to sex to begin with, and then changed her mind, so yes, it's rape, I think.

A-Id say no, because The Woman in question Consented, if not happily, in order to keep from fighting, if she had resisted and he forced himself on her anyway then it wouldve been rape...

B-Yes, because she was not conscious to give Consent...

C-Yes, but itd be kinda cruel to bring him up on it, for the simple fact that she Consented then decided half way through to take it away, this guy's about half way through his thing and thats kinda difficult to stop at that point....So, im saying it is Rape, but i sympathize with the guy, in that, its not entirely his fault...

Situation A: Sarah is married with children. She and her husband generally get on all right and have regular, consensual sex. However, her husband is an alcoholic and a nasty character when he's on a bender. Sarah's husband comes home drunk one night and demands to have sex with her. Sarah is not interested and refuses him, but he persists and becomes forceful. Sarah, afraid of having the situation escalate, gives way and allows him to have sex with her, though she does not want to. Is it rape?

Sexual coercion with the threat/use of force? Yeah that's ambiguous. Could be rape, could be sugar plums, I'm not too sure.


Situation B: Jenny goes to a party at a friend's house where most of the guests are people she knows well. After far too many drinks, Jenny decides to stay the night at the house and passes out. She wakes up the next day to one of her male friends having sex with her. She freezes up and doesn't move as the man finishes having sex with her, although it is obvious that she is awake and not responding to what he's doing. Is it rape?


Sex with someone who is unconscious and cannot possibly consent. Of course it's rape.

Situation C: Rachel, a college student, has just had a serious fight with her boyfriend and left his place quite angry. She goes to see a male friend of hers that she has some chemistry with, although up to this point they have only been good friends. They proceed to make out and then begin to have sex, but in the middle of everything Rachel realizes this is not a solution and not what she wants. She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated. Is it rape?

She said no, he fucked her anyway. Yes, it's rape.

So wait where's the ambiguous situations I heard about?

A-Id say no, because The Woman in question Consented, if not happily, in order to keep from fighting, if she had resisted and he forced himself on her anyway then it wouldve been rape...

B-Yes, because she was not conscious to give Consent...

C-Yes, but itd be kinda cruel to bring him up on it, for the simple fact that she Consented then decided half way through to take it away, this guy's about half way through his thing and thats kinda difficult to stop at that point....So, im saying it is Rape, but i sympathize with the guy, in that, its not entirely his fault...

My thoughts pretty much exactly.

Edit: well, the last one, he absolutely should have stopped. But there's a degree of pity there, in that she consented in the first place. Only a degree. I'd still say rape.

The thing with the last one is that us men, unlike women, we LIKE sex. We sorta... can't stop when we've started.

a) probably rape . . . .impossible to prove but if she said no to start then I'd say so
b)Definitely
C) Definitely . . .though ya gotta sympathize a bit with the guy

The thing with the last one is that us men, unlike women, we LIKE sex. We sorta... can't stop when we've started.

Do you have no self control?

Sexual coercion with the threat/use of force? Yeah that's ambiguous. Could be rape, could be sugar plums, I'm not too sure.



Sex with someone who is unconscious and cannot possibly consent. Of course it's rape.



She said no, he fucked her anyway. Yes, it's rape.

So wait where's the ambiguous situations I heard about?

From the few responses that have been given so far, it's ambiguous for some people.

The thing with the last one is that us men, unlike women, we LIKE sex. We sorta... can't stop when we've started.

Wait... did you just suggest women don't like sex?

A) Yes
B) Yes
C) Ye-es - at the point she said no it becomes something, rape has such connotations that I hesitate to call it outright rape but without a better word I can't think what it might be, non-consensual sex perhaps - ultimately, it's rape though.

A is the most common form, I hate using a film but simply watch Once Were Warriors to see if you think it's rape or not.

C) Definitely . . .though ya gotta sympathize a bit with the guy

Why? If somebody says stop, it means stop, regardless of the activity.

B and C are rape; A is just her giving in. There was an identical situation at my friend's party back in May, where his idiot brother got *smashed* and became very aggressive, and attempted to take his girlfriend's pants off in front of everybody. She never gave in --- she literally fought him for about an hour. It wasn't a pretty sight, either. She beat the shit out of him, and she's well below average height (he's about 6').

It's attempted rape at any rate. I guess one could make the conclusion that it is rape because she's consenting and doesn't actually want to, though that might be a bit of a stretch.

The thing with the last one is that us men, unlike women, we LIKE sex. We sorta... can't stop when we've started.
Alligator clips.

Why? If somebody says stop, it means stop, regardless of the activity.

There ya is.

The thing with the last one is that us men, unlike women, we LIKE sex.

Women don't like sex now? You know, I would wait until you've met an actual woman before making silly assumptions like that.

We sorta... can't stop when we've started.

Nonsense.

From the few responses that have been given so far, it's ambiguous for some people.

For some people, whether Stalin was a bad man or not is ambiguous.

The law is not ambiguous on the subject.

For some people, whether Stalin was a bad man or not is ambiguous.

The law is not ambiguous on the subject.

People on this very message board, in fact. But we shan't say their names or they might appear.

All right, I'm off to bed. I await a variety of responses in the morning.

A-Id say no, because The Woman in question Consented, if not happily, in order to keep from fighting, if she had resisted and he forced himself on her anyway then it wouldve been rape...



Id just like to clarify my position on A, although its not Rape, for the aforementioned reasons...

You could certainly bring him up on Abuse charges, which to me, would be the proper course of action...

The thing with the last one is that us men, unlike women, we LIKE sex. We sorta... can't stop when we've started.

Well, that's just a load of horseshit. The same horseshit that puts muslim women in some places in head-to-toe black clothing when it's 100F outside. Sorry, but your lack of self control does not speak for all men. It speaks for you, and it's not saying anything remotely flattering.

Well, that's just a load of horseshit. The same horseshit that puts muslim women in some places in head-to-toe black clothing when it's 100F outside. Sorry, but your lack of self control does not speak for all men. It speaks for you, and it's not saying anything remotely flattering.

It depends really on where she decided to stop...When Men, all Men, hit a certain point, Ejaculation is inevitable, its Biological, and cant be changed...

Although, we dont know when she said no, and at what point he had to stop, meaning that there's not enough Data to make a credible decision on the subject...

It depends really on where she decided to stop...When Men, all Men, hit a certain point, Ejaculation is inevitable, its Biological, and cant be changed...

Although, we dont know when she said no, and at what point he had to stop, meaning that there's not enough Data to make a credible decision on the subject...

"In the middle of everything" and "telling him to stop several times" would lead one to believe that she wanted him to stop long before the point of no return.

"In the middle of everything" and "telling him to stop several times" would lead one to believe that she wanted him to stop long before the point of no return.

Possibly, but how do we know thats not from Her point of view?

and for that matter, how do we know when his "point of no return" is, its different in everybody...

I mean, im not saying its not rape, in fact i voted it was, Im just giving the poor sap the Benefit of the Doubt...

It depends really on where she decided to stop...When Men, all Men, hit a certain point, Ejaculation is inevitable, its Biological, and cant be changed...

You know it's possible to pull the penis out of the vagina. It really is.

Not doing so when asked to stop is rape. There is no possible excuse for this. There's no ambiguity. She says no, you continue anyway? All the "biological" excuses in the world are not going to change the fact that you just became a rapist.

You know it's possible to pull the penis out of the vagina. It really is.

Not doing so when asked to stop is rape. There is no possible excuse for this. There's no ambiguity. She says no, you continue anyway? All the "biological" excuses in the world are not going to change the fact that you just became a rapist.

That's for truth.

You know it's possible to pull the penis out of the vagina. It really is.



True, but, how much difference would it make in the overall case whether he ejaculated in or out of the Vagina?

True, but, how much difference would it make in the overall case whether he ejaculated in or out of the Vagina?

What difference does that make when he could've pulled it out when she asked him to stop?

Why? If somebody says stop, it means stop, regardless of the activity.


agreed im just saying it would take a hell of a lot of self control to stop and if you don't believe that your not human

agreed im just saying it would take a hell of a lot of self control to stop and if you don't believe that your not human

No, it really doesn't take that much self control.

What it does take is not being a self-involved prick who only cares about his own pleasure.

No, it really doesn't take that much self control.

What it does take is not being a self-involved prick who only cares about his own pleasure.

The best way to explain this is to imagine you're masturbating and your grandma walks in - do people really think there's a point at which they'll simply continue masturbating.

"Sorry Gran, can't stop now".

agreed im just saying it would take a hell of a lot of self control to stop and if you don't believe that your not human

Oh, I'm human. I'm also not into raping women and then making up shitty excuses. The OP doesn't state anything about her suddenly, and one time only demanding he stop mid-ejaculation. Yet you and others in this thread are for some reason automatically assuming that's the case, so you can say, 'oh, it's impossible to stop ejaculating once you've started, so the poor guy couldn't help himself.'

It's no wonder, then, that over half of all rapes go unreported. Because of shit like this. Always so quick to blame the victim and make excuses for the rapist - any excuse, no matter how flimsy.

The best way to explain this is to imagine you're masturbating and your grandma walks in - do people really think there's a point at which they'll simply continue masturbating.

"Sorry Gran, can't stop now".

Yeah, and then he follows her when she walks out of the room, and they're in the kitchen.


*guy continues*


"Yo grandma, can you make some cookies?"


*grandma has a heart attack*

*guy continues*

What difference does that make when he could've pulled it out when she asked him to stop?

the thing is, you dont know how far he was along before she asked him to stop, thats all ive been trying to say the whole time...

I mean, you dont know his side of the story, you dont know how long it takes him to ejaculate, and you dont know how close he was too it...

Im saying it is probably rape, but that he should get a fair trial...You cant just assume that just because she said stop that it was in an opportune time for him to do so...

True, but, how much difference would it make in the overall case whether he ejaculated in or out of the Vagina?

Ask again in nine months.

But yeah, that "dudes can't stop" is horseshit. We can't interrupt a climax, but that's not the same thing and we all know that. If it's that bad for you, go to the bathroom and knock one out. There's no shame in it. There is if you press on after she tells you to stop.

Coerced consent that contains a threat express or implied is force. Force is rape. All situations involve consent either being coerced, not given or revoked. Since rape hinges on consent, they're all rape.

And if you don't think chicks like sex, you're doing it wrong.

No, it really doesn't take that much self control.

What it does take is not being a self-involved prick who only cares about his own pleasure.

stopping halfway through? wouldn't take much self control? don't get me wrong I would . . .and have and in this case prolly wouldn't have started but it was hard. . .

Ask again in nine months.

But yeah, that "dudes can't stop" is horseshit. We can't interrupt a climax, but that's not the same thing and we all know that. If it's that bad for you, go to the bathroom and knock one out. There's no shame in it. There is if you press on after she tells you to stop.

Coerced consent that contains a threat express or implied is force. Force is rape. All situations involve consent either being coerced, not given or revoked. Since rape hinges on consent, they're all rape.

And if you don't think chicks like sex, you're doing it wrong.

Thats completely true, im just saying that you dont know how close he was to climaxing, Thats ALL im saying...

Im just giving him the benefit of the doubt, you cant just come in pronouncing someone is guilty only hearing one side of the story...what kind of Court would that be?

Thats completely true, im just saying that you dont know how close he was to climaxing, Thats ALL im saying...

Im just giving him the benefit of the doubt, you cant just come in pronouncing someone is guilty only hearing one side of the story...what kind of Court would that be?

Guantanamo Bay?

The thing with the last one is that us men, unlike women, we LIKE sex.

I'm sorry... did you just say that women don't like sex?

Funny. I wonder what my problem is, then. Since I like sex and all.

We sorta... can't stop when we've started.

Yes, I've heard of this. How, once copulation has started, men lose all sense of self-control and are reduced to mindless machines and/or primitive life forms, incapable of thought or willful function. How sad for you. So, if the room caught on fire, I guess you're just doomed. Since you "can't stop" and all. Someone should look into this, really.



Edited to erase a somewhat mean comment.

Oh, I'm human. I'm also not into raping women and then making up shitty excuses. The OP doesn't state anything about her suddenly, and one time only demanding he stop mid-ejaculation. Yet you and others in this thread are for some reason automatically assuming that's the case, so you can say, 'oh, it's impossible to stop ejaculating once you've started, so the poor guy couldn't help himself.'

It's no wonder, then, that over half of all rapes go unreported. Because of shit like this. Always so quick to blame the victim and make excuses for the rapist - any excuse, no matter how flimsy.

wow . . .nicely . . .insulting. Did you actually READ what I said?? huh? or just assume?? I didn't say any of what you quoted there. all I said was "it would be hard to stop" and It would. do you disagree with that. btw I'm not into raping women and you had better stop making bullshit assumptions out of nothing before it gets you in trouble.

Yes, I've heard of this. How, once copulation has started, men lose all sense of self-control and are reduced to mindless machines and/or primitive life forms, incapable of thought or willful function. How sad for you. So, if the room caught on fire, I guess you're just doomed. Since you "can't stop" and all. Someone should look into this, really.

It's like the dude who asked his grandma if she could make some cookies. He was still going, the little champ.

Guantanamo Bay?

Good point, lol...But i dont think thats an example Civilized people would like to follow, lol

wow . . .nicely . . .insulting. Did you actually READ what I said??

Yep. Quoted it too. Did YOU actually read what you said?

huh? or just assume?? I didn't say any of what you quoted there. all I said was "it would be hard to stop" and It would.

You said it would take a "hell of a lot" of self control, which is patently bullshit.

You also said anyone who disagreed with you wasn't human. Which is certainly not at all insulting. :rolleyes:

The OP doesn't state anything about her suddenly, and one time only demanding he stop mid-ejaculation. Yet you and others in this thread are for some reason automatically assuming that's the case

Thats true, Im just saying you cant assume the other way around either...

For the moment im saying it was rape, but, whether he's convicted or not is pending a trial, because ive only heard the testimony of the Victim and nothing else...

Thats true, Im just saying you cant assume the other way around either...

For the moment im saying it was rape, but, whether he's convicted or not is pending a trial, because ive only heard the testimony of the Victim and nothing else...

It's not real. It's fictitious. And it's very clearly stated in this bit of fiction what exactly went on.

Yep. Quoted it too. Did YOU actually read what you said?



You said it would take a "hell of a lot" of self control, which is patently bullshit.

You also said anyone who disagreed with you wasn't human. Which is certainly not at all insulting. :rolleyes:

yes but at no point did I say 'oh, it's impossible to stop ejaculating once you've started, so the poor guy couldn't help himself.' you didn't fucking quote me at all. Yet SOMEHOW im into making up excuses for rapists. Dude If I had my way that guy would be locked up for quite a while. That being said while I do think he should have stopped it would also be hard to do.

It's not real. It's fictitious. And it's very clearly stated in this bit of fiction what exactly went on.

Well, i WAS under the impression we were suppose to take this seriously and presume it was real...

But, if it was all fictitious anyway, then Im going to say a Unicorn popped out and raped him, and Jedi came in to Force Stop his semen from exiting the penis...

Sigh.

Y
You said it would take a "hell of a lot" of self control, which is patently bullshit.

You also said anyone who disagreed with you wasn't human. Which is certainly not at all insulting. :rolleyes:

are you male? if so have you had sex? if the answer to these two questions is yes do you really really believe that it would be easy to stop halfway through . . .and yes the human thing was a bit much and im sorry for that part of the comment. I should have left it out.

are you male? if so have you had sex? if the answer to these two questions is yes do you really really believe that it would be easy to stop halfway through . . .and yes the human thing was a bit much and im sorry for that part of the comment. I should have left it out.

Once she's not into it? Hell yes it's easy to stop. I haven't been in anything as dramatic as the OPs situations, but I've had a girlfriend start thinking of something that started to upset her and took her out of the mood-she didn't have to ask me to stop, I just did and it wasn't a problem for me at all-but I'm nutty, for me sex is a shared experience between me and my partner rather than a warm hole I can rut.

Thats true, Im just saying you cant assume the other way around either...

Yeah, you can, because the OP lists hypothetical situations and did not mention anything about mid-ejaculation.

I mean what, maybe you can't assume the guy isn't Jesus of Nazareth. The OP didn't say he wasnt so he could be! Therefore it wouldn't be rape since Jesus is the son of God and wouldn't rape anyone.

For the moment im saying it was rape, but, whether he's convicted or not is pending a trial, because ive only heard the testimony of the Victim and nothing else...

...we've heard the description of a hypothetical situation. There is no actual victim so presuming she is lying or mistaken is silly - the OP describes the situation, period.

yes but at no point did I say 'oh, it's impossible to stop ejaculating once you've started, so the poor guy couldn't help himself.' you didn't fucking quote me at all.

I used the "quote" feature and took your entire statement. Twice now.

I never quoted you or anyone in particular as saying the 'oh its impossible' bit, that's just my sarcastic paraphrase summary of the whole line of reasoning - the bit began by Ferrous Oxide about how men can't stop, albeit now diluted to "hell of a lot of control" to stop.

Which is an excuse for the hypothetical rapist in this argument.

are you male? if so have you had sex? if the answer to these two questions is yes do you really really believe that it would be easy to stop halfway through . . .and yes the human thing was a bit much and im sorry for that part of the comment. I should have left it out.

It doesn't have to be "easy" to stop in order for it not to require some superhuman self-control. In fact the necessary self control is no more or less than that required for any conscious human activity.

And yes, I'm a man, and I've had plenty of sex. My hips don't move unless I make them.

It doesn't have to be "easy" to stop in order for it not to require some superhuman self-control. In fact the necessary self control is no more or less than that required for any conscious human activity.

And yes, I'm a man, and I've had plenty of sex. My hips don't move unless I make them.

Maybe he has a sex machine like Dr. Detroit's running machine.

Once she's not into it? Hell yes it's easy to stop. I haven't been in anything as dramatic as the OPs situations, but I've had a girlfriend start thinking of something that started to upset her and took her out of the mood-she didn't have to ask me to stop, I just did and it wasn't a problem for me at all-but I'm nutty, for me sex is a shared experience between me and my partner rather than a warm hole I can rut.

I was going to say, my SO has sure as hell stopped in the middle of things because "something in my eyes looked upset" and he had no desire to keep going before checking to see if I was all right. (And I was; I, like your girlfriend, had suddenly thought of something else.) I don't think that required much in the way of superpowers. Human decency, maybe.

Yeah, you can, because the OP lists hypothetical situations and did not mention anything about mid-ejaculation.

I mean what, maybe you can't assume the guy isn't Jesus of Nazareth. The OP didn't say he wasnt so he could be! Therefore it wouldn't be rape since Jesus is the son of God and wouldn't rape anyone.



...we've heard the description of a hypothetical situation. There is no actual victim so presuming she is lying or mistaken is silly - the OP describes the situation, period.





Well, im not saying she's lying or Mistaken, just that its from her point of view and that it doesnt say anything about the male other than that he ejaculated, and she told him to stop several times...nothing else, im just saying thats not enough information to really confirm or deny anything...

And, I CHALLENGE you to find me the religious thread where that EXACT argument has not been in use...CHALLENGE YOU I SAY!!! lol

I was going to say, my SO has sure as hell stopped in the middle of things because "something in my eyes looked upset" and he had no desire to keep going before checking to see if I was all right. (And I was; I, like your girlfriend, had suddenly thought of something else.) I don't think that required much in the way of superpowers. Human decency, maybe.

I'd definitely do the same if I noticed something like that.

are you male? if so have you had sex? if the answer to these two questions is yes do you really really believe that it would be easy to stop halfway through ...

It'd be "annoying", frustrating even, but if she changed her mind halfway through, it would be easy to stop. It's like someone said earlier, if the room were on fire you wouldn't keep going and be burnt to a crisp either.



I honestly believe all three of these are rape. Even if the first two are married she only agreed to it out of fear of retaliation, it's a bit less dramatic than him holding a gun to her head, but he is still forcing himself on her.

The second one is the most obvious one, it doesn't really matter if she woke up and didn't do anything close to end. She never consented.

The last one isn't that ambiguous either in my opinion. She changed her mind and told him to stop and he didn't. It's rape.

I'd definitely do the same if I noticed something like that.

Well, that's because we belong to the strange, mystical race of men who can control their movements and women who enjoy sex. :p

Well, that's because we belong to the strange, mystical race of men who can control their movements and women who enjoy sex. :p

Naturally. Which is why we're the best.

PARAGONS, I SAY!

Well, im not saying she's lying or Mistaken, just that its from her point of view


...but it's not.

and that it doesnt say anything about the male other than that he ejaculated, and she told him to stop several times...nothing else, im just saying thats not enough information to really confirm or deny anything...


He didn't stop. He could have. She asked him to. Ergo, rape. Point of view isn't required, the original post gives all the information needed.

...but it's not.



He didn't stop. He could have. She asked him to. Ergo, rape. Point of view isn't required, the original post gives all the information needed.

Yeah, but it doesnt say WHEN during the course of this action she told him to stop...and since it doesnt explicitly say when, trying to decide so on your own is just Conjecture...

but, forget it...its clear we're interpreting this in different ways...And, since there's one guy here(me) who wants to actually trial the case, which is more a philosophy thing anyway, cause regardless, his ass is going to jail...I feel like one of those lawyers that took the case for the challenge and the money, lol

and two that wish to claim their male superiority...and one who seemingly cant control his bodily functions...

im gonna hit the hay its Four in the morning here and i shoulda been asleep two hours ago, lol, but debatings fun...

Night all...

Once she's not into it? Hell yes it's easy to stop. I haven't been in anything as dramatic as the OPs situations, but I've had a girlfriend start thinking of something that started to upset her and took her out of the mood-she didn't have to ask me to stop, I just did and it wasn't a problem for me at all-but I'm nutty, for me sex is a shared experience between me and my partner rather than a warm hole I can rut.
aight thats fair enough actually. . . hadn't thought bout it like that for some reason . . .tied maybe or something. . . guess im pretty out of it neway ur right I was wrong my bad night all

Yeah, but it doesnt say WHEN during the course of this action she told him to stop...and since it doesnt explicitly say when, trying to decide so on your own is just Conjecture...

It says:

"She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated."

It is impossible to "continue until you ejaculate" if you are ALREADY ejaculating.

She told him to stop SEVERAL TIMES, and that was BEFORE said ejaculation.

Ergo he wasn't just interrupted mid-ejaculation.

I'm sure the OP will clarify this in the morning.

It says:

"She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated."

It is impossible to "continue until you ejaculate" if you are ALREADY ejaculating.

She told him to stop SEVERAL TIMES, and that was BEFORE said ejaculation.

Ergo he wasn't just interrupted mid-ejaculation.

I'm sure the OP will clarify this in the morning.

I just have to point out that Climaxing and Ejaculating are two different things...linked things, I.E one causes the other, but different none the less. as in if she told him to stop several times right at the moment he is climaxing, ejaculation is inevitable...

Admittedly, not very likely, but, again, im giving him the Benefit of the Doubt

Also, c'mon, if your girlfriend remembers at the last possible moment that she didn't take her pill that day and says "out! out!" the moment you're about to ejaculate, you'd pull out in a blink of an eye! I know, trust me :)

It is possible even during climax (if you can hear her, that is) but I doubt that would be accepted in court.

Cheerio!

PS: On a tangent, that would be hell of a waste though - for both people involved - especially if they are a good "team." Stopping average sex in mid stride, I have no problems with.

Yeah, but it doesnt say WHEN during the course of this action she told him to stop...and since it doesnt explicitly say when, trying to decide so on your own is just Conjecture...



Let's see how clear I can make this:

It. Doesn't. Matter.

When your partner says "stop," the appropriate response is to stop. Period. This is really not complicated, and I cannot fathom the idea that any other response would even warrant the faintest consideration.

Further, I just want to note that the whole "oh, but it would be so hard" argument is beyond disturbing. No one in their right mind is going to claim that the physical act of removing the penis from the vagina is terribly difficult, so one presumes that it must be some sort of emotional difficulty, and if you are emotionally more troubled by potentially having to go masturbate for a bit then by the fact that you are having sex with another human being without their consent, you are in need of serious psychological help. What the hell is the thought process there: "Oh, hey, she's crying and pushing me away and saying, 'please, please stop,' and I may possibly be emotionally devastating her for years to come and committing a serious crime into the bargain, but gosh darn it, I like having my penis in a vagina rather than my hand?"

yes, yes and yes.

Let's see how clear I can make this:

It. Doesn't. Matter.

When your partner says "stop," the appropriate response is to stop. Period. This is really not complicated, and I cannot fathom the idea that any other response would even warrant the faintest consideration.

Further, I just want to note that the whole "oh, but it would be so hard" argument is beyond disturbing. No one in their right mind is going to claim that the physical act of removing the penis from the vagina is terribly difficult, so one presumes that it must be some sort of emotional difficulty, and if you are emotionally more troubled by potentially having to go masturbate for a bit then by the fact that you are having sex with another human being without their consent, you are in need of serious psychological help. What the hell is the thought process there: "Oh, hey, she's crying and pushing me away and saying, 'please, please stop,' and I may possibly be emotionally devastating her for years to come and committing a serious crime into the bargain, but gosh darn it, I like having my penis in a vagina rather than my hand?"
QFT.

You always have the option of saying that you're pissed off and it is a very harsh thing to do to stop you so close to climax (if you feel that way that is) afterwards.

I wonder, if the question did not include or imply the reason why she told the guy to stop, would the responses be the same?

"She may be having a heart attack" -- would you say the same thing? "It is too hard to stop now..."

"your bachelor's house bed needs a repair; the springs are hurting her" or "she spotted two cyborg ninja assassins about to put a couple of monoblade sais in you" are other ridiculous reasons you may think -- just for fun :)

Cheerio!

Do you have no self control?

Hell no, I'm a human, not a sloth.

Wait... did you just suggest women don't like sex?

Of course they don't. They just use to get what they want from men. As opposed to men, who use sex because it's the sole thing that we do want.

No, it really doesn't take that much self control.

What it does take is not being a self-involved prick who only cares about his own pleasure.

Hahahaha! Rubbish. When a man starts having sex, we gotta finish. We can finish with or without her, but we gotta finish.

What, you think we can get halfway through and say, "Nah, I'd rather not"?

I'm sorry... did you just say that women don't like sex?

Funny. I wonder what my problem is, then. Since I like sex and all.

Well sure you do, if it uses batteries.

Well sure you do, if it uses batteries.

So your sexual prowess is the issue rather than womens enjoyment of sex

A is the most common form, I hate using a film but simply watch Once Were Warriors to see if you think it's rape or not.

Theres exceptions. That there is far closer to the ugly truth than most. Its not a good shaking and a slap across the face.....

Related to recent threads about rape and victim culpability. Rape is "easy" to define when it's done by a stranger and done by force, but what about when the lines aren't as clear?


Situation A: Sarah is married with children. She and her husband generally get on all right and have regular, consensual sex. However, her husband is an alcoholic and a nasty character when he's on a bender. Sarah's husband comes home drunk one night and demands to have sex with her. Sarah is not interested and refuses him, but he persists and becomes forceful. Sarah, afraid of having the situation escalate, gives way and allows him to have sex with her, though she does not want to. Is it rape?


Situation B: Jenny goes to a party at a friend's house where most of the guests are people she knows well. After far too many drinks, Jenny decides to stay the night at the house and passes out. She wakes up the next day to one of her male friends having sex with her. She freezes up and doesn't move as the man finishes having sex with her, although it is obvious that she is awake and not responding to what he's doing. Is it rape?


Situation C: Rachel, a college student, has just had a serious fight with her boyfriend and left his place quite angry. She goes to see a male friend of hers that she has some chemistry with, although up to this point they have only been good friends. They proceed to make out and then begin to have sex, but in the middle of everything Rachel realizes this is not a solution and not what she wants. She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated. Is it rape?


Poll to follow.

a) yep

b) yep

c) yep.

That was easy. :p

Guantanamo Bay?

Ba-zing! :)

So your sexual prowess is the issue rather than womens enjoyment of sex

Nah, I'm fine. Women usually enjoy it ok, but nowhere near as much as us. And they fizzle out much younger. They just don't go looking for it like we do, and they don't NEED it.

Nah, I'm fine. Women usually enjoy it ok, but nowhere near as much as us. And they fizzle out much younger. They just don't go looking for it like we do, and they don't NEED it.

Nope i've been with plenty of women who enjoyed it just as much as me. I'm sticking with the first reason and I think i'll stop even discussing this since I suspect you're just looking for trouble.

Nope i've been with plenty of women who enjoyed it just as much as me. I'm sticking with the first reason and I think i'll stop even discussing this since I suspect you're just looking for trouble.

Well, you won't find a woman who likes it as much as I do. If it were possible I'd just hook sex straight up to my veins.

a) Consent, so no rape - I'm assuming the guy didn't know she consented out of fear, if he actively intimidated the wife then it would indeed be a rape. In anycase, she should dump the guy.

b) Rape (unless, of course she said yes but can't remember it)

c) Toughie, first she consented then said no...If it went to a court it would probably be deemed as no rape because she consented to intercourse. Might go for some lesser charge instead like sexual assault.

They're all rape.

A is the most ambiguous, but she's clearly coerced and basically only gives consent because of her fear of him going out of control in a drunken rage.

As for C, I don't see why I should have sympathy for him. If I can stop having sex because she doesn't want to anymore, so can he. Legally, sex becomes rape the moment one partner says no and the other continues anyway.

Of course they don't. They just use to get what they want from men. As opposed to men, who use sex because it's the sole thing that we do want.


Oh wow. Have you ever thought that maybe they just don't enjoy it when it's with you?

Never mind, of course you haven't.

They're all rape.

It worries me that different people have found ways to say that two of the situations may not have been rape because "we only have her point of view and she may have been mistaken about asking him to stop several times" and "she may have consented (whilst unconscious?) and doesn't remember". As far as I understood the op, we were given the actual situation, not one person's account of it. Why are people so keen to excuse a rapist and assume that women lie about rape?

It also worries me that some men here feel that they would continue to feel arousal and want to continue sex even when their partner is clearly hating it.

Oh wow. Have you ever thought that maybe they just don't enjoy it when it's with you?

Never mind, of course you haven't.

No, I'm fine. I get exactly the same reports from all the guys I know. And popular culture pretty much confirms it. Women don't really care about sex. It's low on the list of priorities, somewhere between "buy mouthwash" and "go to the gym". However, us men, our opinion on the matter tends to vary from "Wooo sex!" and "I got a problem man, I need help, I need it, like, eight times a day".

They're all rape.

A is the most ambiguous, but she's clearly coerced and basically only gives consent because of her fear of him going out of control in a drunken rage.
But does the man know this?

How can it be rape to ask someone for sex who then agrees to it.

Legally, sex becomes rape the moment one partner says no and the other continues anyway.
Source? More specifically if they're already having consentual sex does it really turn into a rape OR is it classified as something else.

The thing with the last one is that us men, unlike women, we LIKE sex. We sorta... can't stop when we've started.

I call bullshit on that one.
Both men and women are perfectly capable of stopping at any time (until about a second or so before orgasm).

This really shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

But does the man know this?

How can it be rape to ask someone for sex who then agrees to it.


Source?

Look it up in law books yourself. California's, specifically. You might as well ask for a source when someone says assault is illegal.

Do you seriously think it's legal to continue ramming your dick into a woman when she's screaming at you to stop?

I call bullshit on that one.
Both men and women are perfectly capable of stopping at any time (until about a second or so before orgasm).

Pfhhh, sure, we can stop having sex WITH THE WOMAN. But we're gonna finish with or without you.

Do you seriously think it's legal to continue ramming your dick into a woman when she's screaming at you to stop?
Of course not, I wouldn't do it.

However, I'm asking for the legal viewpoint to the issue when the girl has already consented to sex.

The problem here is rights of the man in general, think of it: If you had consentual sex with someone and then after you've finished sex she goes on to say it was a rape because while she consented to the sex she didn't want you to ejaculate inside of her.

Pfhhh, sure, we can stop having sex WITH THE WOMaN. But we're gonna finish with or without you.

And this is relevant how? Obviously the guy in the scenario could go masturbate, instead of raping his friend.

Pfhhh, sure, we can stop having sex WITH THE WOMaN. But we're gonna finish with or without you.

In which case it's no longer rape.

And just imagine the uncounted times women had to finish without guys, too...

Your point being?

In which case it's no longer rape.

And just imagine the uncounted times women had to finish without guys, too...

Your point being?

Or start after the guy is finished and snoozing, but we digress. :p

Of course not, I wouldn't do it.

However, I'm asking for the legal viewpoint to the issue when the girl has already consented to sex.

The problem here is rights of the man in general, think of it: If you had consentual sex with someone and then after you've finished sex she goes on to say it was a rape because while she consented to the sex she didn't want you to ejaculate inside of her.

Like I said, the moment that either partner says stop, and the other partner does not, it is legally rape. At least that's how it is in California. It's not an "Oh, you ejaculated in me, that's rape" thing, because obviously that is after the sex is finished anyway. But during the act, you cannot legally continue having sex when your partner tells you to stop. If you really want to look at the actual laws, go ahead and look through the legal code. If you want me to do it for you, I'm sorry, but I must disappoint. It's 4:00 AM and I'm tired.

And this is relevant how? Obviously the guy in the scenario could go masturbate, instead of raping his friend.

Well, I'm just clearing it up for everybody here who thinks men can just stop midway and have a sandwich like women can.

Of course not, I wouldn't do it.

However, I'm asking for the legal viewpoint to the issue when the girl has already consented to sex.

The problem here is rights of the man in general, think of it: If you had consentual sex with someone and then after you've finished sex she goes on to say it was a rape because while she consented to the sex she didn't want you to ejaculate inside of her.

She can call stop at any time, and going on will be rape and illegal.
I doubt however if not agreeing on where to ejaculate would be classified as rape... unless there was dispute about contraception and the guy was aware. Even then it's on very thin ice.
If he was HIV positive and hadn't told her, it might be assault, but not rape.

Well, I'm just clearing it up for everybody here who thinks men can just stop midway and have a sandwich like women can.

Well, you know what? You can.

I don't know about the law but to me all of them are rape in one way or another.
The first one might be legally something else, like coercion, but it's definitely bad.
The second one is rape because she couldn't give consent. If somebody says it's not, it's like saying that if I knock a girl unconscious (and don't tell her why) and then have sex with her, it's not rape.
The third one is pretty bad for the guy (and pretty cruel from the girl), however every part of sex has to be consented to. (Well, there's an exception. She may come to like the overall experience in the end, but she did not in this case.) Though I don't know why she tried to stop it and didn't just enjoy the experience to the end. Sex should be enjoyed! Inventing fornication is the dumbest thing mankind could do.

Well, you know what? You can.

Naturally, the woman will have made it for you though.

'You' being general, in the knowledge that you're female.

No, I'm fine. I get exactly the same reports from all the guys I know. And popular culture pretty much confirms it. Women don't really care about sex. It's low on the list of priorities, somewhere between "buy mouthwash" and "go to the gym". However, us men, our opinion on the matter tends to vary from "Wooo sex!" and "I got a problem man, I need help, I need it, like, eight times a day".

Knowing several women, I really don't believe the whole "women don't enjoy sex" idea. Publically our society teaches females not to let on about their sex drive. However, hang around a female friend, especially a roommate, long enough, and you learn that they get horny all the time, too.

Well, I'm just clearing it up for everybody here who thinks men can just stop midway and have a sandwich like women can.

We can. I really don't see what the point of your posts on this subject are. We're not robots. Stopping in the middle of sex isn't fun, but it's certainly not impossible just because you have a penis. That's pathetic.

No, I'm fine. I get exactly the same reports from all the guys I know. And popular culture pretty much confirms it. Women don't really care about sex. It's low on the list of priorities, somewhere between "buy mouthwash" and "go to the gym". However, us men, our opinion on the matter tends to vary from "Wooo sex!" and "I got a problem man, I need help, I need it, like, eight times a day".

Which is why I currently have a BF and two fuck buddies, while my BF just gets the very occasional swing, right? :rolleyes:

I'd suggest actually getting to know some women before you continue spouting this kind of nonsense. Sex drives vary from person to person, they depend on age, time of year, even time of day (as in, I'll be damned if I ever get anything out of my BF in the evenings or at night. He's a morning person, while I'm pretty much around the clock)

Well, you know what? You can.

...

Hahahahaahahahahahahaha. Hahahaha. Ha.

Seriously though, we can't. Or at least, I can't. I have the sex drive of a bunny.

She can call stop at any time, and going on will be rape and illegal.
I doubt however if not agreeing on where to ejaculate would be classified as rape... unless there was dispute about contraception and the guy was aware. Even then it's on very thin ice.
If he was HIV positive and hadn't told her, it might be assault, but not rape.

In some places, being aware that you are HIV positive and having unprotected sex with a partner who is unaware of this fact is legally rape.

...

Hahahahaahahahahahahaha. Hahahaha. Ha.

Seriously though, we can't. Or at least, I can't. I have the sex drive of a bunny.

Try it. I know for a fact you can. Same as every other human being, and every other animal on the planet (with the possible exception of dogs, of course. They can get stuck now and then)

All situations are rape, although I must say in the last the girl/woman should have known better. Her own fault that things got to the point, but he is still at fault if he continues.

...(with the possible exception of dogs, of course. They can get stuck now and then)

So can humans, chat with night duty nurses, they have great stories.

...

Hahahahaahahahahahahaha. Hahahaha. Ha.

Seriously though, we can't. Or at least, I can't. I have the sex drive of a bunny.

You can. You just don't want to.

...

Hahahahaahahahahahahaha. Hahahaha. Ha.

Seriously though, we can't. Or at least, I can't. I have the sex drive of a bunny.

Hahahahhahah and so do many woman I know.

Try it. I know for a fact you can. Same as every other human being, and every other animal on the planet (with the possible exception of dogs, of course. They can get stuck now and then)

I'd rather not. Sure, I COULD stop. But by the same token, I COULD stop breathing.

In some places, being aware that you are HIV positive and having unprotected sex with a partner who is unaware of this fact is legally rape.

Oh, ok, I didn't know that.
In Germany I think it's serious bodily harm rather than rape. Not sure about Irish legislation.

So can humans, chat with night duty nurses, they have great stories.

"I tripped and fell on the fruit bowl"? :D

Well, I'm just clearing it up for everybody here who thinks men can just stop midway and have a sandwich like women can.

Yes, we can! I can do it, so can you.

I'd rather not. Sure, I COULD stop. But by the same token, I COULD stop breathing.

Ah, seems we're getting to the real problem here : Not wanting to stop rather than not being able to...

Imagine you were having a nice fap, and your mom walked in the room. Would you stop, or tell her that you have ti finish this first, sorry?

I'd rather not. Sure, I COULD stop. But by the same token, I COULD stop breathing.

Please. You won't die if when you stop having sex (for whatever reason, maybe the lady, as in the scenario in the OP, doesn't want to anymore) and have a sandwich instead of pathetically masturbating in the bathroom for once.

Ah, seems we're getting to the real problem here : Not wanting to stop rather than not being able to...

... Did you miss that bit about breathing?

Imagine you were having a nice fap, and your mom walked in the room. Would you stop, or tell her that you have ti finish this first, sorry?

I'd stop for a millisecond, then make the quick trip to the bathroom and finish.

She can call stop at any time, and going on will be rape and illegal.

I doubt however if not agreeing on where to ejaculate would be classified as rape...
The problem here in the situation presented in OP is that we don't know at which point she said no and on the other hand that the black&white interpretation is open to extreme amounts of abuse by women - Also as these would be cases of word vs word the amount of discarded cases would necessarily be large, and the public backlash to being soft on rape could lead to unintended consequences.

My viewpoint of the OP is that the issue might have been as simple as she simply didn't want him to ejaculate inside of her as that would be 'cheating', after fooling around with each other for a while and enjoying every bit of it: So instead of screaming STOP she might have said stop several times right before he climaxed.

The OP is ambiguous here and I would in any case go for a lesser charge than inherently unprovable rape. :\

edit:
What if the would have been written consent for the sex they had?

Please. You won't die if when you stop having sex (for whatever reason, maybe the lady, as in the scenario in the OP, doesn't want to anymore) and have a sandwich instead of pathetically masturbating in the bathroom for once.

... I might. I mean, I tried once, I ended up writhing around in pain. I woke up four hours later in a ditch in the park.

I'd rather not. Sure, I COULD stop. But by the same token, I COULD stop breathing.


you could, but you won't. You are so in tune with your partner, and caring about their wellbeing and enjoyment that you'd carry on even when they're hating it and telling you they're hating it. Sounds like you use vaginas to wank rather than having sex WITH women - I wonder if that explains why your experience is that women don't like sex?

... I might. I mean, I tried once, I ended up writhing around in pain. I woke up four hours later in a ditch in the park.

Bullshit.

here is food for thought, some times girls say to stop and sound like they mean it but they dont mean it...you get the general idea.

but if they are dead serious about saying no..well girls kick 'em in the nuts or do something, you may have been raped but if you dont do anything to stop it then your also to blame.

yes i am a girl.

you could, but you won't. You are so in tune with your partner, and caring about their wellbeing and enjoyment that you'd carry on even when they're hating it and telling you they're hating it. Sounds like you use vaginas to wank rather than having sex WITH women - I wonder if that explains why your experience is that women don't like sex?

Well, to be honest, we're usually both pretty drunk.

... I might. I mean, I tried once, I ended up writhing around in pain. I woke up four hours later in a ditch in the park.

Oh! Somebody hit you in the head because you masturbated at their place and couldn't stop and had you carried out? :D

Well, to be honest, we're usually both pretty drunk.

Oh, I see! Sounds like there is no other way a girl could want to have sex with you :p

I personally think that the word 'rape' is thrown around way too much in our society.

None are rape, and don't think I'm some perverted guy that agrees with, or likes, the scenarios posted here.

A)She gave in, if she didn't seriously want to, she should have fought more.

B)She may have been originally unconscious, but she awoke. It was her own fault for not acting upon her feelings and fighting to have the guy stop.

C)This isn't difficult. Her and her boyfriend/husband or whatever, got into a fight, so they got upset and temporarily went their own ways. It was her decision to first start with the guy, because she wanted to stop in the middle of it, it isn't the guy's fault, it's hers for choosing to cheat on her boyfriend in the first place. And since they mutually agreed to proceed with sex in the first place, she really should have let it go at that point. Some people need to be wise with their decisions, and that's all this is about, it's simply common sense.

If you disagree, so be it. Our society is too sensitive to handle such simple things anyway, someday, that will change. And to be frank, rape is an abusive, duress form of sex; if a guy is acting like he's seizing the woman for his pleasure, it's surely rape. Otherwise, most situations are by choice from one of the participating parties; common sense plays a big roll in many situations that could have been avoided altogether, or stopped at some point.

That's my opinion. Don't like it? Ah, well.. I only try.

Oh, I see! Sounds like there is no other way a girl could want to have sex with you :p

No, I just go to a lot of parties and clubs.

... I might. I mean, I tried once, I ended up writhing around in pain. I woke up four hours later in a ditch in the park.

Bullshit.

No, it's true. I was there. I went back for him after I recharged my taser though. *nod*

No, it's true. I was there. I went back for him after I recharged my taser though. *nod*

Good one! :D

The problem here in the situation presented in OP is that we don't know at which point she said no and on the other hand that the black&white interpretation is open to extreme amounts of abuse by women - Also as these would be cases of word vs word the amount of discarded cases would necessarily be large, and the public backlash to being soft on rape could lead to unintended consequences.

My viewpoint of the OP is that the issue might have been as simple as she simply didn't want him to ejaculate inside of her as that would be 'cheating', after fooling around with each other for a while and enjoying every bit of it: So instead of screaming STOP she might have said stop several times right before he climaxed.

The OP is ambiguous here and I would in any case go for a lesser charge than inherently unprovable rape. :\

edit:
What if the would have been written consent for the sex they had?

Well she apparently said no in the middle of things, not near the end...

I've got a few questions about what you've written here:

what sort of abuse by women? do you think women are looking for ways to accuse men of rape?

Most cases of rape are word v word, and I don't know how you could think that we are anything BUT soft on rape...

I'm also a little confused about the "cheating" thing - how is having a man ejaculate inside you cheating?

I'd guess that any written consent would also contain the terms under which the consent may be withdrawn.

A) She was forced into consenting, albeit not with physical violence, but with threats of violence and intimidation.

B) The most clear-cut example, she was unconscious, it was rape.

C) If she says no, stop, then it's rape. A pity for the bloke, but then he is having sex with supposedly one of his close friends who has just had an arguement with her boyfriend...

I find it highly interesting that all your examples are of men raping women... Interesting indeed.

Situation A: Yes. Consent out of fear and threat of violence is not proper consent (though Hobbes argued otherwise, and thus I shall always regard him as a serial rapist as well as a shitty theorist)

Situation B: Yes. The guy clearly didn't get permission to start having sex with her as she was passed out. The fact that she starts to wake up and doesn't respond wouldn't seem to be consent.

Situation C: Obviously yes. Consent has been withdrawn, and yet the guy continued.

EDIT Also, contrary to the old joke...if you shout "SURPRISE!" its still rape.

Yeah I've gotta say that I'm more than a little disturbed by the fact that currently less than 60% of people consider these three scenarios to be rape. All three are clearly rape, and it is beggar's belief that people think any of them are acceptable.

A is difficult for me as it's not entirely clear to me the exact nature of the resistance... In the most barebones interpretation of the description, I'd err on the side of caution and say yes, but at the same time it's probably the least damaging version in terms of emotional trauma. The end result will be that she's pissed at him but her fear (justifiably) would come from his drunken violence as opposed to the sex itself. In either case, getting a criminal conviction would be next to impossible.

B is pretty clear. It's an act of rape. Not so much because she isn't responding, as most people can't be counted upon to be that aware, especially when horny... but because he started when she was passed out in the first place. Even if he DID stop at that point he's already raped her.

So is C. Consent can be withdrawn. (Of course, we're assuming there was enough time before that ejaculation.... not like...

"Oh baby, I'm almost there..."
"Um.. ok"
"ooh yeah here it comes.."
"Know what? I've changed my mind!"
"d'oh! aggggghhhhhhhhhhhh"

"shit."
"shit."

Why? If somebody says stop, it means stop, regardless of the activity.


So... if you were falling off a balcony, and I yelled "stop!" but you continued to fall, when you hit the ground, I should assume it's suicide?

Some things are very hard to stop. The male state of mind mid-coitus is one that is not fully consciously aware.

Other males might recognize the situation- ever suddenly realize, afterwards, that you gave yourself a nasty friction burn, but you were completely unaware of the pain at the time? This is how it happened.

Yes to all, but to varying degrees.

Related to recent threads about rape and victim culpability. Rape is "easy" to define when it's done by a stranger and done by force, but what about when the lines aren't as clear?


Situation A: Sarah is married with children. She and her husband generally get on all right and have regular, consensual sex. However, her husband is an alcoholic and a nasty character when he's on a bender. Sarah's husband comes home drunk one night and demands to have sex with her. Sarah is not interested and refuses him, but he persists and becomes forceful. Sarah, afraid of having the situation escalate, gives way and allows him to have sex with her, though she does not want to. Is it rape?


Situation B: Jenny goes to a party at a friend's house where most of the guests are people she knows well. After far too many drinks, Jenny decides to stay the night at the house and passes out. She wakes up the next day to one of her male friends having sex with her. She freezes up and doesn't move as the man finishes having sex with her, although it is obvious that she is awake and not responding to what he's doing. Is it rape?


Situation C: Rachel, a college student, has just had a serious fight with her boyfriend and left his place quite angry. She goes to see a male friend of hers that she has some chemistry with, although up to this point they have only been good friends. They proceed to make out and then begin to have sex, but in the middle of everything Rachel realizes this is not a solution and not what she wants. She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated. Is it rape?


Poll to follow.

A is sexual abuse, but I don't know about rape (she gave consent) B is obviously rape, because she didn't consent in any way at all. C is probably the hardest one to answer, and I don't think it's rape, because she gave consent. Him continuing pushes it towards rape, definitely.

Wait... did you just suggest women don't like sex?

Yes. Yes, he did. He also suggested that men are incapable of selfcontrol when they're having sex, so he succeeded in insulting men and women alike. Way to go, champ!

Yes. Yes, he did. He also suggested that men are incapable of selfcontrol when they're having sex, so he succeeded in insulting men and women alike. Way to go, champ!

I aim to please. You know, insulting people is pretty much all I do, so I try to be good at it.

Only one I had an issue with:


If you are having sex with someone, and halfway through it they decided they don't want to anymore, you are doing something really, really, really wrong.

Situation A: Sarah is married with children. She and her husband generally get on all right and have regular, consensual sex. However, her husband is an alcoholic and a nasty character when he's on a bender. Sarah's husband comes home drunk one night and demands to have sex with her. Sarah is not interested and refuses him, but he persists and becomes forceful. Sarah, afraid of having the situation escalate, gives way and allows him to have sex with her, though she does not want to. Is it rape?

Yes. Consent given under threat of force is not consent.

Situation B: Jenny goes to a party at a friend's house where most of the guests are people she knows well. After far too many drinks, Jenny decides to stay the night at the house and passes out. She wakes up the next day to one of her male friends having sex with her. She freezes up and doesn't move as the man finishes having sex with her, although it is obvious that she is awake and not responding to what he's doing. Is it rape?

Yes, she didn't give consent.

Situation C: Rachel, a college student, has just had a serious fight with her boyfriend and left his place quite angry. She goes to see a male friend of hers that she has some chemistry with, although up to this point they have only been good friends. They proceed to make out and then begin to have sex, but in the middle of everything Rachel realizes this is not a solution and not what she wants. She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated. Is it rape?

Yes because she told him to stop, revoking her consent.

Related to recent threads about rape and victim culpability. Rape is "easy" to define when it's done by a stranger and done by force, but what about when the lines aren't as clear?

Situation A: Sarah is married with children. She and her husband generally get on all right and have regular, consensual sex. However, her husband is an alcoholic and a nasty character when he's on a bender. Sarah's husband comes home drunk one night and demands to have sex with her. Sarah is not interested and refuses him, but he persists and becomes forceful. Sarah, afraid of having the situation escalate, gives way and allows him to have sex with her, though she does not want to. Is it rape?
Less forced to more forced into.
But still rape.


Situation B: Jenny goes to a party at a friend's house where most of the guests are people she knows well. After far too many drinks, Jenny decides to stay the night at the house and passes out. She wakes up the next day to one of her male friends having sex with her. She freezes up and doesn't move as the man finishes having sex with her, although it is obvious that she is awake and not responding to what he's doing. Is it rape?
Yes.


Situation C: Rachel, a college student, has just had a serious fight with her boyfriend and left his place quite angry. She goes to see a male friend of hers that she has some chemistry with, although up to this point they have only been good friends. They proceed to make out and then begin to have sex, but in the middle of everything Rachel realizes this is not a solution and not what she wants. She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated. Is it rape?
Yes


Poll to follow.

Have put answers in red.

Related to recent threads about rape and victim culpability. Rape is "easy" to define when it's done by a stranger and done by force, but what about when the lines aren't as clear?


Situation A: Sarah is married with children. She and her husband generally get on all right and have regular, consensual sex. However, her husband is an alcoholic and a nasty character when he's on a bender. Sarah's husband comes home drunk one night and demands to have sex with her. Sarah is not interested and refuses him, but he persists and becomes forceful. Sarah, afraid of having the situation escalate, gives way and allows him to have sex with her, though she does not want to. Is it rape?

Even though she did give in, he had to force her and pressure her to give in. Eh it's a gray area and I think it can go either way. However, the husband is a huge dick.


Situation B: Jenny goes to a party at a friend's house where most of the guests are people she knows well. After far too many drinks, Jenny decides to stay the night at the house and passes out. She wakes up the next day to one of her male friends having sex with her. She freezes up and doesn't move as the man finishes having sex with her, although it is obvious that she is awake and not responding to what he's doing. Is it rape?

Yes, because I believe that when your judgment is impaired, then you can't really consent to it. So yes, it is rape.


Situation C: Rachel, a college student, has just had a serious fight with her boyfriend and left his place quite angry. She goes to see a male friend of hers that she has some chemistry with, although up to this point they have only been good friends. They proceed to make out and then begin to have sex, but in the middle of everything Rachel realizes this is not a solution and not what she wants. She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated. Is it rape?

It's rape after she tells him to stop and he doesn't.

*waits for Neo Art to respond, you know he will*

A. depends on what you mean by forceful.

B. yes. sex with drunk past out people is fucked up.

C.yes.... though depends on how long until he ejaculated. id say about 30 seconds leeway is in order.

And popular culture pretty much confirms it. Women don't really care about sex.

"Popular culture confirms it!" What a stupid argument.

Well, you won't find a woman who likes it as much as I do.

I'm just going to make a wild guess that you've never actually had sex. I don't see how you could and make bone-headed comments about women.

Unless they're unconscious when you fuck them. I seriously wouldn't put it past a person like you, particularly as you're defending rapists in this thread.

Hell no, I'm a human, not a sloth.

I'm a human, therefore I have self-control. If you don't have self-control, you're most likely going to end up in prison.

Of course they don't. They just use to get what they want from men. As opposed to men, who use sex because it's the sole thing that we do want.


Again with the royal "we," as if your own immature sexual attitude and brainless assumptions are shared by anyone other than yourself. They aren't by me, but see I'm a real man and not a child as you seem to assume.

Nah, I'm fine. Women usually enjoy it ok, but nowhere near as much as us. And they fizzle out much younger.

A woman's sexual peak is later than that of men. About her 30's, as opposed to you when you're 15 or however old you are now.

Well, to be honest, we're usually both pretty drunk.

And she's usually passed out and says 'no,' right?

I aim to please. You know, insulting people is pretty much all I do, so I try to be good at it.

Yes, but insulting yourself by demonstrating your monstrous lack of experience, knowledge, maturity and honesty isn't really something to be proud of.

And I have to say it doesn't actually insult other people very well.

Situation A: Sarah is married with children. She and her husband generally get on all right and have regular, consensual sex. However, her husband is an alcoholic and a nasty character when he's on a bender. Sarah's husband comes home drunk one night and demands to have sex with her. Sarah is not interested and refuses him, but he persists and becomes forceful. Sarah, afraid of having the situation escalate, gives way and allows him to have sex with her, though she does not want to. Is it rape?

This could go either way.

Situation B: Jenny goes to a party at a friend's house where most of the guests are people she knows well. After far too many drinks, Jenny decides to stay the night at the house and passes out. She wakes up the next day to one of her male friends having sex with her. She freezes up and doesn't move as the man finishes having sex with her, although it is obvious that she is awake and not responding to what he's doing. Is it rape?

Yes!

[quote]Situation C: Rachel, a college student, has just had a serious fight with her boyfriend and left his place quite angry. She goes to see a male friend of hers that she has some chemistry with, although up to this point they have only been good friends. They proceed to make out and then begin to have sex, but in the middle of everything Rachel realizes this is not a solution and not what she wants. She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated. Is it rape?

According to the courts...yes.

I personally think that the word 'rape' is thrown around way too much in our society.


Oh, poor baby. Too bad the facts show that the only reason 'rape' is thrown around so much is that it HAPPENS SO MUCH.


A)She gave in, if she didn't seriously want to, she should have fought more.

...Jesus Fucking Christ.

"She didn't fight hard enough, therefore she consented." Rapists have been using this defense for thousands of years.

B)She may have been originally unconscious, but she awoke. It was her own fault for not acting upon her feelings and fighting to have the guy stop.

Again, "her own fault?" Blaming the victim? I'm just going to guess you're a teenage boy, how's my telepathy working?

And since they mutually agreed to proceed with sex in the first place, she really should have let it go at that point.

More of your "its her own fault!" crap.

If you disagree, so be it. Our society is too sensitive to handle such simple things anyway, someday, that will change. And to be frank, rape is an abusive, duress form of sex; if a guy is acting like he's seizing the woman for his pleasure, it's surely rape.

If a man has non-consenting sex with a woman, it's rape. Period.

Your... interesting... definitions of what rape is, I have to inform you, are not shared by most judges and prosecutors. Guess who has more credibility on the issue.


That's my opinion. Don't like it? Ah, well.. I only try.

The good news is you can quit trying, since you fucking failed. Have a nice day. :)

A and B are rape. MISTAKE! IGNORE WHAT I SAID BEFORE THE EDIT! C is rape too.

Strictly speaking, I think all the situations could fall under the definition of "rape". If the man in situation A and C could be punished for it... That's a different matter. (Due to evidence and such, I mean)

According to the courts...yes.
Well, it would depend wouldn't it? When did she say it, how did she communicate it, could he understand (was it a clear "No") and did he not respond within a reasonable time limit? Etc.

It's a gray area, and it is in my mind not clear based on what little information we have.

Strictly speaking, I think all the situations could fall under the definition of "rape". If the man in situation A and C could be punished for it... That's a different matter. (Due to evidence and such, I mean)

Not just evidence, but this alarming tendency for people - mainly males, I notice - to make any and all excuses for rapists and to blame the victim and deny that there was any sex crime at all.

I can only count my blessings that I'm not a woman and don't have to deal with the possibility, nay, likelihood of being raped and then told by a jury of my own peers that it was my own fault and that I obviously was askin' for it.

on scenario c:
for all those who believe it would be really simple for men to stop once they've started, please imagine a big bowl of your favorite ice cream, and it magically has no fat or calories or anything bad for you, in fact, it helps you lose weight, and tastes twice as good! now start eating. continue...continue...STOP!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP EATING THIS WONDERFUL ICE CREAM. the person who decided to share with you changed their mind but they aren't "pulling out" the bowl from underneath you. Kinda hard to stop eating isn't it.

btw, i am a man and i believe there is a point of no return

on scenario c:
for all those who believe it would be really simple for men to stop once they've started, please imagine a big bowl of your favorite ice cream, and it magically has no fat or calories or anything bad for you, in fact, it helps you lose weight, and tastes twice as good! now start eating. continue...continue...STOP!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP EATING THIS WONDERFUL ICE CREAM. the person who decided to share with you changed their mind but they aren't "pulling out" the bowl from underneath you. Kinda hard to stop eating isn't it.

btw, i am a man and i believe there is a point of no return

It's not hard for a man with self control and basic morality to stop when a woman says to. If you have so little self control as to not be able to follow someone's basic wishes, you should be locked up for everyone's safety.

Think of it this way, you and your girl are going at it when suddenly her dad walks in.......you'll stop.

on scenario c:
for all those who believe it would be really simple for men to stop once they've started, please imagine a big bowl of your favorite ice cream, and it magically has no fat or calories or anything bad for you, in fact, it helps you lose weight, and tastes twice as good! now start eating. continue...continue...STOP!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP EATING THIS WONDERFUL ICE CREAM. the person who decided to share with you changed their mind but they aren't "pulling out" the bowl from underneath you. Kinda hard to stop eating isn't it.

btw, i am a man and i believe there is a point of no return

Icecream eh? well I suppose its an improvement on the bacon argument :rolleyes:

It's not hard for a man with self control and basic morality to stop when a woman says to. If you have so little self control as to not be able to follow someone's basic wishes, you should be locked up for everyone's safety.

Think of it this way, you and your girl are going at it when suddenly her dad walks in.......you'll stop.

This is true - there are plenty of situations when you'd stop in a second. To say you wouldn't is to say that the woman saying no just isn't a good enough reason.

on scenario c:
for all those who believe it would be really simple for men to stop once they've started, please imagine a big bowl of your favorite ice cream, and it magically has no fat or calories or anything bad for you, in fact, it helps you lose weight, and tastes twice as good! now start eating. continue...continue...STOP!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP EATING THIS WONDERFUL ICE CREAM. the person who decided to share with you changed their mind but they aren't "pulling out" the bowl from underneath you. Kinda hard to stop eating isn't it.

Um. No. I can stop eating ice cream just as well as, if not more than, refraining from committing an act of rape on a woman. I'm just fucking amazingly superhuman like that.

This is true - there are plenty of situations when you'd stop in a second. To say you wouldn't is to say that the woman saying no just isn't a good enough reason.

Precisely.

i don't think you understand just how good this ice cream is. it's...it's almost...orgasmic

*teehee*

i don't believe women understand sex the same way men do. not saying that we understand it better, just differently. and i do believe the man mind becomes primal during sex. but with the cases of someone bursting in, only when that kind of shock happens that the mind can switch. maybe if the girl screamed rape he would actually stop. plus, when women dress up skankily *not saying that all of them do* it's like, why put it on display if it ain't for sale?

It's not hard for a man with self control and basic morality to stop when a woman says to. If you have so little self control as to not be able to follow someone's basic wishes, you should be locked up for everyone's safety.

Think of it this way, you and your girl are going at it when suddenly her dad walks in.......you'll stop.

well i think there is a point. but it is very small. the point just before ejaculation, thats why I say a good 30 second window is needed to comply with the request.

as for the dad walk in thing I didn't stop, however I pulled out and came on his daughters stomach then got up and put my pants on, and said how are you Mr. B. given she was 22 and moved out and her dad came by and used a copy of the key he had to come in and check on her. The relationship ended about two weeks later though.

Wow, that was nice, Greed and Death, you are indeed a piece of work.

Saying no is no. No to begin is no to begin. No to finish is not to finish.

So, I guess that according to the standard "you began you stay until it is finished", if I am consenting to give someone a blowjob I am inherently consenting to a buttfuck?

1) While I personally think it is rape, I don't know if it would legally be considered to be rape. Abuse and assault, certainly, but I don't know how a jury would rule that one.

2) Disgusting. And certainly rape.

3) I don't get whats ambiguous. When she says stop, you STOP. So yes, rape.

And as for all those people saying how hard it is to stop, I'm a teenage guy, and more than that, I'm still in highschool, and if I feel like something is wrong, I stop and ask my gf whats up.

I say this so all of you guys saying "I can't stop!" are ashamed that a horny teen with raging hormones has more self control than you.



Again, "her own fault?" Blaming the victim? I'm just going to guess you're a teenage boy, how's my telepathy working?


On behalf of teenage boys everywhere, I'm wounded :(

1
I say this so all of you guys saying "I can't stop!" are ashamed that a horny teen with raging hormones has more self control than you.




I'm wounded :(

Sorry. :( I don't usually stoop to pickin' at someone's age, but on this subject I'm really just astounded at some of the viewpoints here and racking my brain for what possible thing could be responsible.

The woman in situation A should have said no and left or called the police to get away from a man who was a violent drunk. She chose to have sex with him.

The woman in situation A should have said no and left or called the police to get away from a man who was a violent drunk. She chose to have sex with him.

Yes, it's so easy for most women to deal with violent drunken husbands. I suppose all those victims of domestic violence just have themselves to blame for not going to the police.

Of course it's rape, even if she consents because she's afraid of violent consequences.

All three.

Seriously, if people think I'm the flaming end of flames around here, they haven't read the OP here.

So, I guess that according to the standard "you began you stay until it is finished", if I am consenting to give someone a blowjob I am inherently consenting to a buttfuck?

no. 30 seconds. and I only need that if I am right at the point of orgasming.
If I am not in the middle of orgasming I will be more then happy stop immediately. but you know she consented to sex she can give me 30 seconds of leeway before filing rape charges.

it is like driving a car 60 miles an hour and the passenger request I let them out right now. give me 30 seconds to apply the brakes and find a spot to pull over.

whats this butt fuck shit. consent to oral doesn't mean consent to sex.
just like consent to sex doesn't mean consent to oral or anal.

no. 30 seconds. and I only need that if I am right at the point of orgasming.
If I am not in the middle of orgasming I will be more then happy stop immediately. but you know she consented to sex she can give me 30 seconds of leeway before filing rape charges.

it is like driving a car 60 miles an hour and the passenger request I let them out right now. give me 30 seconds to apply the brakes and find a spot to pull over.

whats this butt fuck shit. consent to oral doesn't mean consent to sex.
just like consent to sex doesn't mean consent to oral or anal.

It's called "pulling out". If you aren't familiar with the term, and the technique, you need to have your dick surgically removed.

It's called "pulling out". If you aren't familiar with the term, and the technique, you need to have your dick surgically removed.

it is still part of having sex to pull out and cum on the girl. but please tell me you don't consider that a mean of birth control. thats all useful for couple who enjoy playing the cum on each other game.

Well, that's just a load of horseshit. The same horseshit that puts muslim women in some places in head-to-toe black clothing when it's 100F outside. Sorry, but your lack of self control does not speak for all men. It speaks for you, and it's not saying anything remotely flattering.

To be fair, head to toe flowing robes are a bloody good choice in hot weather, and a damn sight better than what Westerners wear.

[/hijack]

it is still part of having sex to pull out and cum on the girl. but please tell me you don't consider that a mean of birth control. thats all useful for couple who enjoy playing the cum on each other game.

If the woman says, "stop" it means stop.

It doesn't mean, "I'm about to cum, give me 30 seconds." You're not a fucking car at 60 mph.

It means "STOP". Which means, "pull out and go sit over there, put some clothes on or something".

no. 30 seconds. and I only need that if I am right at the point of orgasming.
If I am not in the middle of orgasming I will be more then happy stop immediately. but you know she consented to sex she can give me 30 seconds of leeway before filing rape charges.

it is like driving a car 60 miles an hour and the passenger request I let them out right now. give me 30 seconds to apply the brakes and find a spot to pull over.

whats this butt fuck shit. consent to oral doesn't mean consent to sex.
just like consent to sex doesn't mean consent to oral or anal.

30 seconds? Are you a pig or something?

And I am talking about consenting to one form of sex, but not another. I could agree with you starting, but not ending.

As Hotwife said, if you are not familiar with pulling out, perhaps some medical procedure is in order. I'm all in for brain surgery, actually.

If you trust in "pulling out" as an effective way of birth control. You need help, guidance, and perhaps castration to avoid further problems and unwanted overpopulation.

... I might. I mean, I tried once, I ended up writhing around in pain. I woke up four hours later in a ditch in the park.

http://www.buddytv.com/articles/American_Dad/Images/Steve_Smith_American_Dad.jpg
Virgin.

Sorry. :( I don't usually stoop to pickin' at someone's age, but on this subject I'm really just astounded at some of the viewpoints here and racking my brain for what possible thing could be responsible.


Ahhh, its ok. I understand where you are coming from, and I totally agree. What some of these people are saying is really sick.

If the woman says, "stop" it means stop.

It doesn't mean, "I'm about to cum, give me 30 seconds." You're not a fucking car at 60 mph.
[/about]
about to is a different matter from in the middle of cumming. In an about to situation I concur the guy should get off get off as in stop just realized the connotations of getting off.
It means "STOP". Which means, "pull out and go sit over there, put some clothes on or something".

here from wiki but it is sourced.

Orgasm is characterized by intense physical pleasure, controlled by the involuntary, or autonomic, nervous system.[1] It is accompanied by quick cycles of muscle contraction in the lower pelvic muscles, which surround the primary sexual organs and the anus. Orgasms are often associated with other involuntary actions, including muscular spasms in other areas of the body, a general euphoric sensation, and frequently, vocalizations.

the muscle contractions in an orgasm are involuntary. pulling out is me pulling out before orgasm. If I am already in it I can not stop. thats why opps happen when couples use the pull out method(if you can call it that) for birth control.

about to is a different matter from in the middle of cumming. In an about to situation I concur the guy should get off.

here from wiki but it is sourced.


the muscle contractions in an orgasm are involuntary. pulling out is me pulling out before orgasm. If I am already in it I can not stop. thats why opps happen when couples use the pull out method(if you can call it that) for birth control.

involuntary muscle spasms in your penis do not keep you from pulling out and backing off.

the muscle contractions in an orgasm are involuntary. pulling out is me pulling out before orgasm. If I am already in it I can not stop. thats why opps happen when couples use the pull out method(if you can call it that) for birth control.

Yes, but it sure as hell doesn't take thirty seconds.

Seriously, count out thirty seconds, if you are experiencing orgasms of that length I suggest going to a doctor because you have something seriously wrong with you.

Three seconds seems like a reasonable maximum, but that would only be if you are literally in mid orgasm at the very moment she says stop (like that would ever actually happen :rolleyes:), otherwise you better stop in a second flat.

Even so, orgasms don't cause complete muscular failure anyway...

I once read a survey of college guys that I found astounding. It said one in four male college students thought using force on a woman who had withdrawn previously given consent was okay. After reading some of these posts, I am no longer astounded. Just disgusted.

My apologies if the other 3 of 4 feel picked on. It's the other 25% i have a problem with.

All three are rape. Reasoning:


Situation A: Sarah is married with children. She and her husband generally get on all right and have regular, consensual sex. However, her husband is an alcoholic and a nasty character when he's on a bender. Sarah's husband comes home drunk one night and demands to have sex with her. Sarah is not interested and refuses him, but he persists and becomes forceful. Sarah, afraid of having the situation escalate, gives way and allows him to have sex with her, though she does not want to. Is it rape?

If somebody pulls out a gun and says "give me your wallet," and you give it to them, have you consented to giving them money just because they didn't actually shoot you?


Situation B: Jenny goes to a party at a friend's house where most of the guests are people she knows well. After far too many drinks, Jenny decides to stay the night at the house and passes out. She wakes up the next day to one of her male friends having sex with her. She freezes up and doesn't move as the man finishes having sex with her, although it is obvious that she is awake and not responding to what he's doing. Is it rape?

Even if we were to accept the (rather ridiculous) premise that her lack of resistance after waking up means he wasn't raping her, the fact is he still would have been raping her before she woke up. If any part of a sexual encounter is rape, then it is rape.


Situation C: Rachel, a college student, has just had a serious fight with her boyfriend and left his place quite angry. She goes to see a male friend of hers that she has some chemistry with, although up to this point they have only been good friends. They proceed to make out and then begin to have sex, but in the middle of everything Rachel realizes this is not a solution and not what she wants. She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated. Is it rape?


She did not want to keep having sex. He kept having sex with her anyway.
He was not raping her before she said to stop, but then, when he continued, he began to rape her.

For those who say that C is not rape because he "couldn't stop."

The only way that that could be at all possible would be if she literally told him to stop, say, half a second before ejaculation and he actually could not react on time. But even 10 seconds, or 5 seconds before-- that's ample time to process the information and react.

Yes, but it sure as hell doesn't take thirty seconds.

Seriously, count out thirty seconds, if you are experiencing orgasms of that length I suggest going to a doctor because you have something seriously wrong with you.

Hell, if he's having thirty second orgasms, maybe I need to see a doctor to see if I can have that. :D


Not that it's any excuse to rape somebody, of course.

I once read a survey of college guys that I found astounding. It said one in four male college students thought using force on a woman who had withdrawn previously given consent was okay. After reading some of these posts, I am no longer astounded. Just disgusted.

My apologies if the other 3 of 4 feel picked on. It's the other 25% i have a problem with.

You're not alone.

Unfucking real.

It was never the men like Trostia or Intangelon or others like them, who understand that they do not own or have the right to coerce women into sex, that we had to worry about. I'm just disgusted that there are so many seriously fucked up others who think that 'no' right before you're about to cum doesn't count.

Even if we were to accept the (rather ridiculous) premise that her lack of resistance after waking up means he wasn't raping her, the fact is he still would have been raping her before she woke up. If any part of a sexual encounter is rape, then it is rape.

Hmm, that reasoning is tricky. If she, after waking up, had not frozen but instead started to participate enthousiastically - would it have been rape before the waking as well ?

Hmm, that reasoning is tricky. If she, after waking up, had not frozen but instead started to participate enthousiastically - would it have been rape before the waking as well ?

I would say so, but it's her choice to press charges if she feels wronged.

If I were a guy I'd be as embarassed as hell to claim the same gender as some of these idiots who have no control over their dicks. WTF? I wouldn't want it infered that I was helplessly in thrall to my sex drive to the point of being incapable of thinking.

Yes, but it sure as hell doesn't take thirty seconds.

Seriously, count out thirty seconds, if you are experiencing orgasms of that length I suggest going to a doctor because you have something seriously wrong with you.

hmm http://www.savvymiss.com/love-advice/sex-advice/sex-sex-sex-archive/article/the-lowdown-on-your-o-380.html

couldn't find it for men in the 30 seconds i was willing to spend on it. but average length for an orgasm in women is 13 to 51 seconds. Perhaps you should see a doctor or sex counselor it seems your sex life sucks.



Three seconds seems like a reasonable maximum, but that would only be if you are literally in mid orgasm at the very moment she says stop (hell of a coincidence:rolleyes:), otherwise you better stop in a second flat.

3 seconds is very unreasonable and seems to be based off of your poor sex life.
on the second part i do agree. my contention is when a male is in orgasm.

Even so, orgasms don't cause complete muscular failure anyway...
not muscle failure, muscle spasms. for me they happen from my knees to mid abdomen. Depending on the position I may not be able to move backwards with those muscles while spasming.

Awake again, and pleased to see there's so much discussion!

After reading a few "it's fictious" "we don't know his side of the story" "we don't know when she asked him to stop" debates, I've decided to add some information I was considering but hadn't made up my mind about:

These are ALL scenarios that have happened to women I know.

The only exception is C, where the scenario did happen, but in reality the man stopped when asked. I have no idea how close he was to ejaculating, as that's a rather personal detail to ask of someone, but he did stop. However, had he NOT stopped, the woman in that scenario has said she would not have reported it as rape.

The women in scenarios A and B did not report them as rape.

Trostia asked in the very beginning "where the ambiguity was" and I quite agree. I think all three are rape. Yet the first two went unreported, and had the last been completed as the scenario was written, it would not have been reported, either. I wanted to use these examples both to see where people drew the line and to counter the popular idea of how many women "cry rape" versus the reality of how many rapes go unreported.

If I were a guy I'd be as embarassed as hell to claim the same gender as some of these idiots who have no control over their dicks. WTF? I wouldn't want it infered that I was helplessly in thrall to my sex drive to the point of being incapable of thinking.

That's the angle I could never understand! "Women shouldn't wear sexy skirts because I lose all control and have to fuck them, willing or not!" The whole, "there's only enough blood to use one brain at a time" thing. What man wants to be thought of as basically moronic if he happens to have a hard on?

No man I'd want to know, that's for damn sure.

If I were a guy I'd be as embarassed as hell to claim the same gender as some of these idiots who have no control over their dicks. WTF? I wouldn't want it infered that I was helplessly in thrall to my sex drive to the point of being incapable of thinking.

No more embarrassed than I am to be of the same species (or hell, genus, just to be safe) as they are.

That's the angle I could never understand! "Women shouldn't wear sexy skirts because I lose all control and have to fuck them, willing or not!" The whole, "there's only enough blood to use one brain at a time" thing. What man wants to be thought of as basically moronic if he happens to have a hard on?

No man I'd want to know, that's for damn sure.

The problem lays when you actually meet a man who is not like that. Then you realize it's not physical or genetic. And you also realize that the ones who are like that, are just morons that try to justify their conduct and behavior being even more idiotic, if possible.

The problem lays when you actually meet a man who is not like that. Then you realize it's not physical or genetic. And you also realize that the ones who are like that, are just morons that try to justify their conduct and behavior being even more idiotic, if possible.

Well of course the fear is of meeting these kinds of morons and having them set their sights on you.

The thing with the last one is that us men, unlike women, we LIKE sex. We sorta... can't stop when we've started.

Its irrelevant how much you like it, she dosen't you rape her if you dont pull out the second you find out she has changed her mind. It becomes rape the second she stops consenting and he carries on.

Once she's not into it? Hell yes it's easy to stop. I haven't been in anything as dramatic as the OPs situations, but I've had a girlfriend start thinking of something that started to upset her and took her out of the mood-she didn't have to ask me to stop, I just did and it wasn't a problem for me at all-but I'm nutty, for me sex is a shared experience between me and my partner rather than a warm hole I can rut.

Same argument I made in the other thread about the woman being taken up stairs who was too inebriated to consent or protest. I just don't see how it's fun to have sex with what's basically an incoherent warm body.

It'd be "annoying", frustrating even, but if she changed her mind halfway through, it would be easy to stop. It's like someone said earlier, if the room were on fire you wouldn't keep going and be burnt to a crisp either.

You always have the option of saying that you're pissed off and it is a very harsh thing to do to stop you so close to climax (if you feel that way that is) afterwards.

Agreed with both. There is nothing wrong with feeling annoyed or, in my opinion, asking the woman to leave, but you must stop.

I wonder, if the question did not include or imply the reason why she told the guy to stop, would the responses be the same?

An excellent question!

I'm sure the OP will clarify this in the morning.

Indeed I shall. The man in the scenario, as I imagined it and tried to write it, was not near ejaculation or climax.

Of course they don't. They just use to get what they want from men. As opposed to men, who use sex because it's the sole thing that we do want.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2107/2235605698_b2c8efcd79.jpg?v=0

Nah, I'm fine. Women usually enjoy it ok, but nowhere near as much as us. And they fizzle out much younger. They just don't go looking for it like we do, and they don't NEED it.

You do know that on average men hit their sexual peak at 17, and women hit their sexual peak at 34?

Well, you won't find a woman who likes it as much as I do. If it were possible I'd just hook sex straight up to my veins.

Funny, because my personal experience has been that I have had a higher sex drive than every person I've ever dated, from teens to late twenties.

Knowing several women, I really don't believe the whole "women don't enjoy sex" idea. Publically our society teaches females not to let on about their sex drive. However, hang around a female friend, especially a roommate, long enough, and you learn that they get horny all the time, too.

Knowing you and CNTOAN and I are all from the same area, and that area is, to put it mildly, quite left-leaning, it's possible that you have experience with normal, unoppressed women who feel free in expressing their sexuality that FO does not. Which is incredibly sad for him. This is me giving an enormous benefit of the doubt.

Which is why I currently have a BF and two fuck buddies, while my BF just gets the very occasional swing, right? :rolleyes:

...

You're my hero.

Situation A: Sarah is married with children. She and her husband generally get on all right and have regular, consensual sex. However, her husband is an alcoholic and a nasty character when he's on a bender. Sarah's husband comes home drunk one night and demands to have sex with her. Sarah is not interested and refuses him, but he persists and becomes forceful. Sarah, afraid of having the situation escalate, gives way and allows him to have sex with her, though she does not want to. Is it rape? yes, it's rape. even tho she 'gave her consent' it was under duress.

Situation B: Jenny goes to a party at a friend's house where most of the guests are people she knows well. After far too many drinks, Jenny decides to stay the night at the house and passes out. She wakes up the next day to one of her male friends having sex with her. She freezes up and doesn't move as the man finishes having sex with her, although it is obvious that she is awake and not responding to what he's doing. Is it rape? Yes, it's rape. no consent given.


Situation C: Rachel, a college student, has just had a serious fight with her boyfriend and left his place quite angry. She goes to see a male friend of hers that she has some chemistry with, although up to this point they have only been good friends. They proceed to make out and then begin to have sex, but in the middle of everything Rachel realizes this is not a solution and not what she wants. She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated. Is it rape? yes. while I do agree it's unfair for the man, Legally, it's still rape.

Well, you know what? You can.
depends on the sandwich... ;)

Knowing you and CNTOAN and I are all from the same area, and that area is, to put it mildly, quite left-leaning, it's possible that you have experience with normal, unoppressed women who feel free in expressing their sexuality that FO does not. Which is incredibly sad for him. This is me giving an enormous benefit of the doubt.

I live in a very sexually repressed religious area, and have many sexually repressed religious friends, and they still like sex. In fact they actually admit to needing it. We all read a book in book club once that had the statement that men need sex to feel love and women need love to want sex........but we almost unanimously agreed that we also, often need affection to feel loved.

Well of course the fear is of meeting these kinds of morons and having them set their sights on you.

I'm personally holding out hope that the rather vocal minority of people in this thread that seem to have lost all control of their penises are still convinced that POV porn is pretty much the same as sex. She's looking right at you and everything!

You do know that on average men hit their sexual peak at 17, and women hit their sexual peak at 34?


yay! I'm at my sexual peak!!!!!

on scenario c:
for all those who believe it would be really simple for men to stop once they've started, please imagine a big bowl of your favorite ice cream, and it magically has no fat or calories or anything bad for you, in fact, it helps you lose weight, and tastes twice as good! now start eating. continue...continue...STOP!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP EATING THIS WONDERFUL ICE CREAM. the person who decided to share with you changed their mind but they aren't "pulling out" the bowl from underneath you. Kinda hard to stop eating isn't it.

btw, i am a man and i believe there is a point of no return

Hey, you know what I'd do in your scenario?

I'd stop eating the freaking ice cream, because I don't believe I have a right to take someone else's ice cream without their permission. The fact that you believe others' ice cream is there for you to take at will is your problem, not one decent human beings face.

I am so disturbed by the replies in this thread...

Related to recent threads about rape and victim culpability. Rape is "easy" to define when it's done by a stranger and done by force, but what about when the lines aren't as clear?


Situation A: Sarah is married with children. She and her husband generally get on all right and have regular, consensual sex. However, her husband is an alcoholic and a nasty character when he's on a bender. Sarah's husband comes home drunk one night and demands to have sex with her. Sarah is not interested and refuses him, but he persists and becomes forceful. Sarah, afraid of having the situation escalate, gives way and allows him to have sex with her, though she does not want to. Is it rape?


Situation B: Jenny goes to a party at a friend's house where most of the guests are people she knows well. After far too many drinks, Jenny decides to stay the night at the house and passes out. She wakes up the next day to one of her male friends having sex with her. She freezes up and doesn't move as the man finishes having sex with her, although it is obvious that she is awake and not responding to what he's doing. Is it rape?


Situation C: Rachel, a college student, has just had a serious fight with her boyfriend and left his place quite angry. She goes to see a male friend of hers that she has some chemistry with, although up to this point they have only been good friends. They proceed to make out and then begin to have sex, but in the middle of everything Rachel realizes this is not a solution and not what she wants. She tells her friend she has changed her mind and tells him to stop several times, but he continues until he has ejaculated. Is it rape?


Poll to follow.

Yes, yes, yes. That is all rape, in different forms.

It doesn't matter if consent is given beforehand, or if it's given to "keep yourself safe in the situation." If it's not wanted, it's rape.

yes, it's rape. even tho she 'gave her consent' it was under duress.Disagree here. It's a form of sexual assault, but not exactly rape.

Disagree here. It's a form of sexual assault, but not exactly rape.

Don't get all legalistic (that's rich coming from me, I know). We're using 'rape' in a general, colloquial sense. No need to start defining it...is there?

Well perhaps there might be, carry on.

Don't get all legalistic (that's rich coming from me, I know). We're using 'rape' in a general, colloquial sense. No need to start defining it...is there?

Well perhaps there might be, carry on.
Well, if we're asking whether something is rape, then yeah, there is a definite need to define what constitutes rape and what makes it different from other forms of sexual assault.

Well, if we're asking whether something is rape, then yeah, there is a definite need to define what constitutes rape and what makes it different from other forms of sexual assault.

Ugh.

Don't tell me you're going into law school as well :P

Okay well which criminal code should we use as a reference point?

The old 'penile penetration of a vagina' as the only possible form of rape is rather last century, do we need to even consider it?

The only way that that could be at all possible would be if she literally told him to stop, say, half a second before ejaculation and he actually could not react on time. But even 10 seconds, or 5 seconds before-- that's ample time to process the information and react.

and thats all i was trying to say, thats its not that likely but it is possible...

Which was why the exact when wouldve been a crucial detail...I know your supposed to assume it was ample time beforehand, but, i just dont think thats fair to the male, cause you dont really know...

These are ALL scenarios that have happened to women I know.



Sucks.

Ugh.

Don't tell me you're going into law school as well :PGod forbid...
Okay well which criminal code should we use as a reference point?None, since no location was given. We need to discuss how far the definition of rape stretches.
The old 'penile penetration of a vagina' as the only possible form of rape is rather last century, do we need to even consider it?No, I'm more concerned with how the circumstances came about. In scenario A, the woman hasn't been "forced" to have sex, since she relented to avoid an escalation. That isn't the same as being forced to have sex against your express will or someone having sex with you when you can't give consent.

The old 'penile penetration of a vagina' as the only possible form of rape is rather last century, do we need to even consider it?

That's still the definition in Scot's Law, I'm ashamed to say. That said, all three situations cited are considered rape here too.

on scenario c:
for all those who believe it would be really simple for men to stop once they've started, please imagine a big bowl of your favorite ice cream, and it magically has no fat or calories or anything bad for you, in fact, it helps you lose weight, and tastes twice as good! now start eating. continue...continue...STOP!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP EATING THIS WONDERFUL ICE CREAM. the person who decided to share with you changed their mind but they aren't "pulling out" the bowl from underneath you. Kinda hard to stop eating isn't it.

btw, i am a man and i believe there is a point of no return

I disagree. If you can't muster the self control to pull out when she tells you to stop, you are not a man. You are a boy, or an animal. If you respect your partner, and the law, you can stop. Apparently I have more faith in you than you do.

I'm really tired of hearing this excuse. Albeit an ineffective birth control method, if there was really a "point of no return," then there wouldn't be such a concept as "pull out and pray."

I disagree. If you can't muster the self control to pull out when she tells you to stop, you are not a man. You are a boy, or an animal. If you respect your partner, and the law, you can stop. Apparently I have more faith in you than you do.Or just plain weak.

I disagree. If you can't muster the self control to pull out when she tells you to stop, you are not a man. You are a boy, or an animal. If you respect your partner, and the law, you can stop. Apparently I have more faith in you than you do.

I'm really tired of hearing this excuse. Albeit an ineffective birth control method, if there was really a "point of no return," then there wouldn't be such a concept as "pull out and pray."

Especially now that we know that the situations are real and the last one is the only one in which, in reality, the dude actually did stop. Reality once again disagrees with dickwads.

I once read a survey of college guys that I found astounding. It said one in four male college students thought using force on a woman who had withdrawn previously given consent was okay. After reading some of these posts, I am no longer astounded. Just disgusted.

My apologies if the other 3 of 4 feel picked on. It's the other 25% i have a problem with.

Nobody's being picked on here. Well, except for people who are defending rape.

hmm http://www.savvymiss.com/love-advice/sex-advice/sex-sex-sex-archive/article/the-lowdown-on-your-o-380.html

couldn't find it for men in the 30 seconds i was willing to spend on it. but average length for an orgasm in women is 13 to 51 seconds. Perhaps you should see a doctor or sex counselor it seems your sex life sucks.

3 seconds is very unreasonable and seems to be based off of your poor sex life.
on the second part i do agree. my contention is when a male is in orgasm.

not muscle failure, muscle spasms. for me they happen from my knees to mid abdomen. Depending on the position I may not be able to move backwards with those muscles while spasming.

Men have shorter orgasms than women do. I know that time kinda seems unreal during an orgasm, but seriously, male orgasms don't last 30 seconds.

Ah, seems we're getting to the real problem here : Not wanting to stop rather than not being able to...

Imagine you were having a nice fap, and your mom walked in the room. Would you stop, or tell her that you have ti finish this first, sorry?

Duh, you stare her in the eye, DEFIANTLY, and finish yourself off. Anything less is pathetic.

God Bless Adam Corolla

In scenario A, the woman hasn't been "forced" to have sex, since she relented to avoid an escalation. That isn't the same as being forced to have sex against your express will or someone having sex with you when you can't give consent.I beg to differ. That's the same as saying if someone merely brandishes a firearm at you but doesn't fire, it's not robbery when he takes your money.

Especially now that we know that the situations are real and the last one is the only one in which, in reality, the dude actually did stop. Reality once again disagrees with dickwads.

Yeah, we were operating on the knowledge that it was fictitious...In fact, the fact that i was taking it seriously seemed to piss a few people off...for some reason:confused:

Knowing you and CNTOAN and I are all from the same area, and that area is, to put it mildly, quite left-leaning, it's possible that you have experience with normal, unoppressed women who feel free in expressing their sexuality that FO does not. Which is incredibly sad for him. This is me giving an enormous benefit of the doubt.

Indeed. My friends and I, male and female, generally know each other well enough so that embarrassment isn't really an issue. Also, when you live with friends who are a couple, it's interesting to see who's the one calling the other to the bedroom most of the time.

I beg to differ. That's the same as saying if someone merely brandishes a firearm at you but doesn't fire, it's not robbery when he takes your money.What defines rape and what defines robbery? Robbery is universally understood as stealing while armed, whereas rape is disputed. I can tell you that all cases would have been considered sexual assault, but only the latter too would likely have been considered "rape."
So, no, it's not at all like saying someone brandishing a firearm isn't robbery if they don't fire.

Especially now that we know that the situations are real and the last one is the only one in which, in reality, the dude actually did stop. Reality once again disagrees with dickwads.

Reality has a funny way of doing that.

What defines rape and what defines robbery? Robbery is universally understood as stealing while armed, whereas rape is disputed. I can tell you that all cases would have been considered sexual assault, but only the latter too would likely have been considered "rape."
So, no, it's not at all like saying someone brandishing a firearm isn't robbery if they don't fire.

No, it's like saying that it isn't robbery if, at the threat of violence, you hand over your money.

If someone points a gun at you, and you thus pull out your own wallet and hand it to them, you did so willingly, right? It can't be stealing unless he wrestled it away from you.

Well, I'm just clearing it up for everybody here who thinks men can just stop midway and have a sandwich like women can.

In other words, the people who know what they're talking about. I know I have.

No, it's like saying that it isn't robbery if, at the threat of violence, you hand over your money.

If someone points a gun at you, and you thus pull out your own wallet and hand it to them, you did so willingly, right? It can't be stealing unless he wrestled it away from you.

True, but i dont think theyd consider Rape and Robbery the same thing in the Court of Law....

What defines rape and what defines robbery? Robbery is universally understood as stealing while armed, whereas rape is disputed. I can tell you that all cases would have been considered sexual assault, but only the latter too would likely have been considered "rape."
So, no, it's not at all like saying someone brandishing a firearm isn't robbery if they don't fire.
I still disagree. If you gain sex by threat of violence, it doesn't matter if the violence ever happens. The woman in A was coerced to have sex via a threat of violence. That's rape.

No, it's like saying that it isn't robbery if, at the threat of violence, you hand over your money.

If someone points a gun at you, and you thus pull out your own wallet and hand it to them, you did so willingly, right? It can't be stealing unless he wrestled it away from you.I was kind of hoping people would argue why it's rape without resorting to metaphors, since they aren't really appropriate.

I still disagree. If you gain sex by threat of violence, it doesn't matter if the violence ever happens. The woman in A was coerced to have sex via a threat of violence. That's rape.

Id say it was more Abuse, which would, to me, be a more likely way to get him in Jail...

I still disagree. If you gain sex by threat of violence, it doesn't matter if the violence ever happens. The woman in A was coerced to have sex via a threat of violence. That's rape.Depends on whether the man threatened to beat her if she didn't comply or if she complied with out a threat being issued. The former would be rape, the latter is sexual assault.

True, but i dont think theyd consider Rape and Robbery the same thing in the Court of Law....

Of course not, they are two different crimes.

But is ridiculous to use a different definition of "consent" for the two crimes. If I consent to give you my money, it's isn't robbery. We don't consider it consent if you threaten me to get it.

Why should we look at it any differently for rape?

Indeed. My friends and I, male and female, generally know each other well enough so that embarrassment isn't really an issue. Also, when you live with friends who are a couple, it's interesting to see who's the one calling the other to the bedroom most of the time.

Heh...side story, I was living with a couple a while back and the chick was trying to get the dude to come to bed but the dude wasn't picking up on it because he was afraid he would miss something 'cool' we might be about to do (no idea what gave him that idea). It reached a point where we had to say, "Dude, if you don't go up there with her, one of us will..."

Of course not, they are two different crimes.

But is ridiculous to use a different definition of "consent" for the two crimes. If I consent to give you my money, it's isn't robbery. We don't consider it consent if you threaten me to get it.

Why should we look at it any differently for rape?

Because Sex isnt an Object?

But, Robbery is the crime of seizing property through violence or intimidation. (wikipedia)...Consent wouldnt even be a concern...

Rape, sometimes called sexual assault, is an assault by a person involving sexual intercourse with or sexual penetration of another person without their consent. (Wikipedia)...Consent would matter in said situation...

What defines rape and what defines robbery? Robbery is universally understood as stealing while armed, whereas rape is disputed. I can tell you that all cases would have been considered sexual assault, but only the latter too would likely have been considered "rape."
So, no, it's not at all like saying someone brandishing a firearm isn't robbery if they don't fire.

Where?

You haven't provided a definition yet, or spelled out which jurisdiction you're pulling it from. Rape can include provisions that make it impossible for a man to rape his spouse...or for a woman to rape anyone. Other rape laws are more like what you and I are probably familiar with in terms of sexual assault laws.

God forbid...
None, since no location was given. We need to discuss how far the definition of rape stretches.
No, I'm more concerned with how the circumstances came about. In scenario A, the woman hasn't been "forced" to have sex, since she relented to avoid an escalation. That isn't the same as being forced to have sex against your express will or someone having sex with you when you can't give consent.

Consent is vitiated if given under duress.

We don't have 'rape' in Canada, we just have various forms of sexual assault. Nonetheless, consent is never assumed...the accused must prove consent.

Depends on whether the man threatened to beat her if she didn't comply or if she complied with out a threat being issued. The former would be rape, the latter is sexual assault.

Threats don't have to be verbally issued. If it was reasonable for her to assume by his actions that he would become violent if she didn't consent then it's rape. It would be hard to prove in court though, but as we're not talking about what can and cannot be proven in court I'd say it was rape.

Because Sex isnt an Object?

How is that relevant?

But, Robbery is the crime of seizing property through violence or intimidation. (wikipedia)...Consent wouldnt even be a concern...

Of course consent is a concern. If someone walks up to you and asks for your money and you willingly hand it over - not robbery.

If, on the other hand, someone intimidates you or threatens violence to get the money, you are considered unwilling and it is thus stealing.

Why should you be considered willing when you go along with something else - like sex - because of such a threat?

Depends on whether the man threatened to beat her if she didn't comply or if she complied with out a threat being issued. The former would be rape, the latter is sexual assault.Perhaps you should explain where you're getting your definition. I'm beginning to think you're just enjoying arguement for arguements sake. Are we talking legal definition? Because I'm using the common meaning of sexual coercion. Consists of most nonconsensual sex acts.

This is where i get my Definition...I point the users too it, being that we need a definition...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape

a) the hardest one for me to answer. I'm not sure.
b) yes.
c) ... yes. sort of?

The second one was easy, because she never consented to have sex in the first place.

The first one... I mean, I'd say it's a form of abuse, or *something*, but I don't know about rape.

The third... well, she consented to sex to begin with, and then changed her mind, so yes, it's rape, I think.

My thoughts exactly. B is the only definite unquestionable case of rape. C is debatable, probably but not definitely. A is abuse but not rape.

This is where i get my Definition...I point the users too it, being that we need a definition...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeSo this is your ironclad definition-There is no universally accepted distinction between rape and other forms of assault involving one or both participant's sexual organs-straight from Wiki.

Very helpful.

Very helpful.

Yep, i thought so...:cool:

Yep, i thought so...:cool:With that I'm afraid I have to assume you're talking out of your ass when try to tell me one thing's rape and another is sexual assult.

Most rape victims won't see much difference. I know I don't.

And I don't think your little play on semantics adds much to the arguement. I think you're smart enough to know what people are speaking of when they say "rape."

With that I'm afraid I have to assume you're talking out of your ass when try to tell me one thing's rape and another is sexual assult.

Most rape victims won't see much difference. I know I don't.

And I don't think your little play on semantics adds much to the arguement. I think you're smart enough to know what people are speaking of when they say "rape."

Your ass can talk? i wish to learn this trick...

I was just saying that there should be a Debate, it seems everyone here with the exception of a small few, wants to just hand in a verdict and go on...and that small few got insulted and belittled, whilest the members proclaim their superiority at half way having sex and eating sandwhiches...or some stupid shit like that, rather than actually bothering to come up with counter points and points...

But, what was i expecting im on teh interwebs, lol...

Your ass can talk? i wish to learn this trick...

I was just saying that there should be a Debate, it seems everyone here with the exception of a small few, wants to just hand in a verdict and go on...and that small few got insulted and belittled, whilest the members proclaim their superiority at half way having sex and eating sandwhiches...or some stupid shit like that, rather than actually bothering to come up with counter points and points...

But, what was i expecting im on teh interwebs, lol...

Garbage in, garbage out.

You put up a flawed argument as a target (as all posts here are), get it shot to hell, and then blame the people with the guns? Nope, sorry. And as for your incredibly lame opening "joke" on the post I've quoted here, BK's ass has probably said many more intelligent things over it's lifetime than you have in this thread. You're probably a fine person, but spouting bags of fail and than griping when nobody swallows them is pretty disingenuous.

Garbage in, garbage out.

You put up a flawed argument as a target (as all posts here are), get it shot to hell, and then blame the people with the guns? Nope, sorry. And as for your incredibly lame opening "joke" on the post I've quoted here, BK's ass has probably said many more intelligent things over it's lifetime than you have in this thread. You're probably a fine person, but spouting bags of fail and than griping when nobody swallows them is pretty disingenuous.

No, Im not griping about shit, just pointing out what happened...and as far as your Guns Analogy...I ask you, who do Iraqis blame when they get shot?

I was just saying that there should be a Debate

There was. It didn't take long. We're just waiting for you to realize it.

, it seems everyone here with the exception of a small few, wants to just hand in a verdict and go on...

This isn't about a 'verdict.' This isn't a trial, and the OP's hypothetical situations are not 'points of view' or evidence or witnesses. They are third-person omniscient descriptions. There is no ambiguity, no weasel-lawyer room. They might as well each say, "A man rapes a woman. Is it rape?"

And the "small few" who are "belittled" thus respond, "No! Women don't like sex! Men can't possibly stop having sex in the middle! She brought it on herself! She must have wanted it! I know, because of my dubious personal anecdotes about fucking drunk chicks at parties!"

and that small few got insulted and belittled, whilest the members proclaim their superiority at half way having sex and eating sandwhiches...or some stupid shit like that, rather than actually bothering to come up with counter points and points...


I'm getting the distinct impression you haven't actually read the thread at all.

But, what was i expecting im on teh interwebs, lol...

Yeah, that must be it.

There was. It didn't take long. We're just waiting for you to realize it.



Fuck it...I knew it was a losing argument when i started it, Its just very difficult to accept defeat..

Some things the Devil's Advocate just cant win...

Disagree here. It's a form of sexual assault, but not exactly rape.

it's debatable.
Situation A: Sarah is married with children. She and her husband generally get on all right and have regular, consensual sex. However, her husband is an alcoholic and a nasty character when he's on a bender. Sarah's husband comes home drunk one night and demands to have sex with her. Sarah is not interested and refuses him, but he persists and becomes forceful. Sarah, afraid of having the situation escalate, gives way and allows him to have sex with her, though she does not want to. Is it rape?

Did she feel theatened if the situation escalated? I assumed she did, thus falling under "consent under threat/duress"

however, if it came to trial, I don't think they would prosecute for Rape but, as others pointed out, Abuse. however the question isn't what crime would appy, but "is it rape?"

B and C are certainly rape. The first one, though, is a borderline case. More specifics, and the opinion of the wife ex post facto must be taken into account.

I think this thread does indicate that there is a Serious problem with the Definition of Rape...being that there isnt a Defining one...

This issue seriously needs to be addressed...

A-Id say no, because The Woman in question Consented, if not happily, in order to keep from fighting, if she had resisted and he forced himself on her anyway then it wouldve been rape...


So she was forced into concenting to avoid the concequences of not concenting

Sounds like rape to me

The guy is an alchaholic is predisposed to a "bad attitude" with that combination it would be probably reasonable it would go beyond "fighting" to abuse if she did not concent

Even if not and it was simply going to be a fight there is still forced under duress

It is deffinatly (in my mind) the more grey option but on the other side of the line

So she was forced into concenting to avoid the concequences of not concenting

Sounds like rape to me

The guy is an alchaholic is predisposed to a "bad attitude" with that combination it would be probably reasonable it would go beyond "fighting" to abuse if she did not concent

Even if not and it was simply going to be a fight there is still forced under duress

It is deffinatly (in my mind) the more grey option but on the other side of the line

Oh, i didnt say he was in the right, just that when she should and does take him to court, i dont think Rape charges are her best bet, Abuse is...

But, as was painfully hammered in my head, this isnt about what a Court would think, lol...So, its irrelevant....

I think this thread does indicate that there is a Serious problem with the Definition of Rape...being that there isnt a Defining one...

This issue seriously needs to be addressed...

I always thought we used this (http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?selected=1718&bold=||||) definition of rape.
rape
1) n. the crime of sexual intercourse (with actual penetration of a woman's vagina with the man's penis) without consent and accomplished through force, threat of violence or intimidation (such as a threat to harm a woman's child, husband or boyfriend). What constitutes lack of consent usually includes saying "no" or being too drunk or drug-influenced for the woman to be able to either resist or consent, but a recent Pennsylvania case ruled that a woman must do more than say "no" on the bizarre theory that "no" does not always mean "don't," but a flirtatious come-on. "Date rape" involves rape by an acquaintance who refuses to stop when told to. Defense attorneys often argue that there had to be physical resistance, but the modern view is that fear of harm and the relative strengths of the man and the woman are obvious deterrents to a woman fighting back. Any sexual intercourse with a child is rape and in most states sexual relations even with consent involving a girl 14 to 18 (with some variation on ages in a few states) is "statutory rape," on the basis that the female is unable to give consent.
2) v. to have sexual intercourse with a female without her consent through force, violence, threat or intimidation, or with a girl under age. Technically, a woman can be charged with rape by assisting a man in the rape of another woman. Dissatisfied with the typical prosecution of rape cases (in which the defense humiliates the accuser, and prosecutors are unable or unwilling to protect the woman from such tactics), women have been suing for civil damages for the physical and emotional damage caused by the rape, although too often the perpetrator has no funds. Protection services for rape victims have been developed by both public and private agencies. On the other side of the coin, there is the concern of law enforcement and prosecutors that women whose advances have been rejected by a man, or who have been caught in the act of consensual sexual intercourse may falsely cry "rape."

Bolding mine, and why I say scenario A would be rape.

Men have shorter orgasms than women do. I know that time kinda seems unreal during an orgasm, but seriously, male orgasms don't last 30 seconds.

but we got to apply law equally and throwing someone in jail due to them having an unusually long orgasm is pretty fucked up.

and personally it is closer to 15 seconds. 5 seconds is just the cum coming out. though i likely draw the process out because i work out my pubococcygeus muscle

The thing with the last one is that us men, unlike women, we LIKE sex. We sorta... can't stop when we've started.

Id say that if in your experiance women dont like sex that speaks more about your...abilities then it does women's sexual desires.

I always thought we used this (http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?selected=1718&bold=||||) definition of rape.


Bolding mine, and why I say scenario A would be rape.

Your probably right...Ive already tried to argue the point and lost...

Why do i keep getting drawn back here? its like a bug zapper or something...WHY!!!:headbang: lol

I always thought we used this (http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?selected=1718&bold=||||) definition of rape.

There is a problem with that definition, though. According to it, only women can be raped - and only through penis-in-vagina contact.

Your probably right...Ive already tried to argue the point and lost...

Why do i keep getting drawn back here? its like a bug zapper or something...WHY!!!:headbang: lol

I though you were arguing the "men can't stop once they hit a certain point"... or was that someone else? :confused:

There is a problem with that definition, though. According to it, only women can be raped - and only through penis-in-vagina contact.
yep.

tho I believe some states here expanded it to penitration in any form. thus covering artifical peni and any opening for any sex.

and I believe that's the definition most lawyers use.

There is a problem with that definition, though. According to it, only women can be raped - and only through penis-in-vagina contact.

True, but aside from that, it did have helpful and relevant bits to the discussion.

What constitutes lack of consent usually includes saying "no" or being too drunk or drug-influenced for the woman to be able to either resist or consent, but a recent Pennsylvania case ruled that a woman must do more than say "no" on the bizarre theory that "no" does not always mean "don't," but a flirtatious come-on. "Date rape" involves rape by an acquaintance who refuses to stop when told to. Defense attorneys often argue that there had to be physical resistance, but the modern view is that fear of harm and the relative strengths of the man and the woman are obvious deterrents to a woman fighting back.

I though you were arguing the "men can't stop once they hit a certain point"... or was that someone else? :confused:

Nope, Twas not i...

I was just saying that it would be kinda cruel to pin all the blame on the guy in C...

I was Hammered for it...and unfortunately that statement's not as much of a Weapon as id like...

EDIT: you could probably find a quote or two that sounds like it, but, there was some grasping at straws at one point...