NationStates Jolt Archive

This guy has a set of balls on him that makes a bull say DAMN.

Terror profiling without evidence considered in U.S. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-07-02-terror-profiling_N.htm?csp=34

I should think at this point id stop being suprised by attacks on US civil liberties by our own government but they seem to be never ending. The bastard Bush MADE me vote for Hillary last election as a protest vote. I can never forgive him.

A sad day for democracy and freedom indeed.

If this ever goes through, I will forever correct anyone who dares claim the USA to be the "land of freedom and liberty".

whats a terrorist profile according to the justice department.

Wow. Just, wow. So much for "Land of the free". Good thing I don't live in the future "United Police States of America"...

Remember, a vote for McCain is a vote for Four More Years of this kind of bullshit.

Remember, a vote for McCain is a vote for Four More Years of this kind of bullshit.

Yea but a vote for Obama means a recinding of the Bush tax breaks of 2001. This is bad for everyone.

Yea but a vote for Obama means a recinding of the Bush tax breaks of 2001. This is bad for everyone.

Democracy fails when people realize they can vote themselves the treasury.

If this actually passes, I will, for the first time in my life, be ashamed of my country.

That cocksucker in office apparently doesnt understand what it means to "Protect and Defend the Constitution of the United States of America."

That cocksucker in office apparently doesnt understand what it means to "Protect and Defend the Constitution of the United States of America."
Be mindful of your words. I happen to quite like cocksuckers in general, and you comparing them with as filthy a personage as G. W. Bush is offensive.

whats a terrorist profile according to the justice department.
Bearded, with a turban.

Be mindful of your words. I happen to quite like cocksuckers in general, and you comparing them with as filthy a personage as G. W. Bush is offensive.

How'd they get it from good woman to bad man?

huh? The article says no evidence, but then says "The new policy, law enforcement officials told The Associated Press, would let agents open preliminary terror investigations after mining public records and intelligence to build a profile of traits that, taken together, could be deemed suspicious."

ok..... anyway, I really don't see a problem with the FBI INVESTIGATING suspected terrorists for the safety of the country. BTW, what do these whining liberals have to hide from law enforcement that they won't let them do their job?

This might be a horrible waste of resources, and somewhat offensive to sensibilities but there's nothing really unconstitutional about it.

My bad, Skaladora :p

And there is something very unconsititutional. You know, protection from illegal search and siezure without a warrant or probable cause? And looking at your background without any proof of a crime is NOT a legal search.

Also, what kind of guidlines are they going to use for the traits? Muslim? Born in the middle east? It's a pathetic attempt at legalizing race profiling.

huh? The article says no evidence, but then says "The new policy, law enforcement officials told The Associated Press, would let agents open preliminary terror investigations after mining public records and intelligence to build a profile of traits that, taken together, could be deemed suspicious."

ok..... anyway, I really don't see a problem with the FBI INVESTIGATING suspected terrorists for the safety of the country. BTW, what do these whining liberals have to hide from law enforcement that they won't let them do their job?

Operating on the whacky assumption that this wasn't sarcastic, the point is that these aren't suspected terrorists; these are people who the FBI doesn't even think have committed a crime, have not said or done anything to imply they want to commit a crime, and do not have the ability to commit a crime. The FBI can investigate them based upon literally just their ethnicity, nationality, and religion, without even a single bit of evidence (Not even an unsourced tattle-tale phone-call pointing to "the ebil aryab").

BTW, what do these whining liberals have to hide from law enforcement that they won't let them do their job?

I really loathe this argument. One doesn't have to have done something wrong to enjoy one's privacy. Your average person doesn't feel particularly guilty about having sex with his spouse, but that doesn't mean he wants the whole neighborhood to watch him do it. I don't have anything to hide from the government, but I have plenty of things I don't particularly want to share with the government.

My bad, Skaladora :p

And there is something very unconsititutional. You know, protection from illegal search and siezure without a warrant? If looking at your background without any proof of a crime is NOT a legal search.

who said this would authorize searches without a warrant? Where exactly does it say that?

It said it would allow the fbi to "open an investigation". Nothing about suddenly getting rid of due process because you're a muslim.

I really loathe this argument. One doesn't have to have done something wrong to enjoy one's privacy. Your average person doesn't feel particularly guilty about having sex with his spouse, but that doesn't mean he wants the whole neighborhood to watch him do it. I don't have anything to hide from the government, but I have plenty of things I don't particularly want to share with the government.

because you're a terrorist?

because you're a terrorist?

....curses! Foiled again!

*blows up NSG*

*runs away*

BTW, what do these whining liberals have to hide from law enforcement that they won't let them do their job?

The same thing you have to hide by not telling me all about your sex life if I ask you.

To test, indeed, I will:

Are you right-handed or left-handed?

Right-handed, although there are times I consider switching it up; I've always wondered what it would be like on the other side.

My mistake, Neo Art. It does not actually say that they would not use a warrant, and for that I apologize.

I just sort of, you know, assumed that they wouldn't use a warrant because the entire premise for the investigation is illegal?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Fourth Amendment for you. There would be no probable cause except "well, I don't like his last name." Or something similar.

My mistake, Neo Art. It does not actually say that they would not use a warrant, and for that I apologize.

I just sort of, you know, assumed that they wouldn't use a warrant because the entire premise for the investigation is illegal?

Except no, it's not.

Fourth Amendment for you. There would be no probable cause except "well, I don't like his last name." Or something similar.

Except that's not at all what's happening. This says that the FBI can begin a preliminary investigation. What a preliminary investigation is, as the article explains, means they can approach the individual and ask him questions, look at matters of public record, and things like that.

There's nothing illegal about that. The police can ask just about whatever they want to whomever they want for any reason they want. Law enforcement is totally and utterly free to come up to you and say "I want to talk to you about why you went to Lebanon last month".

But it cuts both ways, you're entirely free to say "that's nice, I don't want to talk to you" and there's nothing they can do about that. The police have the same freedom of expression that you do. They can talk to you about anything they want. You just don't have to answer.

The internal policy of the FBI, policy, not law, is that they could not begin even those preliminary investigations without evidence. The question is whether to change that policy so that they can begin preliminary investigation due to suspicion of matching a specific profile. There's nothing unconstitutional about that. They still can't perform any searches, do any wiretaps, make any arrests, or do anything other than what they're legally allowed to do, without the prescribed constitutional authority to do so.

Nothing in this violates the constitution. It might be fucking stupid, but it's not illegal.

And I thought they couldn't make the lives of american muslims any harder, way to go Bush you've surpassed Hitler on being a complete dickead, why not set up your own gestapo?!

There's an extreme logic fault occuring here.

You want all investigations to procede only if evidence exists?

Where does the evidence come from?

It comes into existence in one of two ways. Either by an investigation, or by a criminal act creating it.

So if you decide to wait until a terrorist act creates evidence of terrorism, no sale. I've seen what that does, and it's not nice, and I'd rather the government investigate everyone alive than see it again. I'll volunteer to be investigated twice, just to make it fair.

But they don't have the resources for that. Got to use it sparingly. You fish where the fish are thickest.

Better to profile and investigate a million innocent people than bury a hundred.

Not prosecute, not persecute, not imprison. Investigate. There's a difference, and sometimes the reactionary crowd just doesn't get it.

There's an extreme logic fault occuring here.

Which is what?

You want all investigations to procede only if evidence exists?

Ah. Strawman. That must be the logic fault you were referring to.

Where does the evidence come from?

It comes into existence in one of two ways. Either by an investigation, or by a criminal act creating it.

So if you decide to wait until a terrorist act creates evidence of terrorism, no sale. I've seen what that does, and it's not nice, and I'd rather the government investigate everyone alive than see it again. I'll volunteer to be investigated twice, just to make it fair.

But they don't have the resources for that. Got to use it sparingly. You fish where the fish are thickest.

Better to profile and investigate a million innocent people than bury a hundred.


And personal liberty - you know, one of those things that terrorists want to get rid of - we'll just toss that out the window?

Fuck that shit. I'm an American. I happen to like my dwindling supply of liberties. I don't care how scared you are of terrorism - it's not so much of a threat that it's worth destroying the country over.


Not prosecute, not persecute, not imprison. Investigate. There's a difference, and sometimes the reactionary crowd just doesn't get it.

Investigating people for non-crimes, non-suspicious activity that simply 'could be interpreted as suspicious' according to some vague and nebulous generalizations is paranoid, stupid Cold War era bullshit. Plain and simple.

And the McCarthyist crowd just doesn't get it, doesn't care about anything other than their own, pathetic fears.

-- why not set up your own gestapo?!

Maybe he has, but it's so secret that not even he knows of its existence! :p

And personal liberty - you know, one of those things that terrorists want to get rid of - we'll just toss that out the window?

Fuck that shit. I'm an American. I happen to like my dwindling supply of liberties. I don't care how scared you are of terrorism - it's not so much of a threat that it's worth destroying the country over.

I'll ask just one question. What constitutional right is being violated here?

who said this would authorize searches without a warrant? Where exactly does it say that?

It said it would allow the fbi to "open an investigation". Nothing about suddenly getting rid of due process because you're a muslim.

Getting rid of due process? Er, that's already been done. Extraordinary Rendition.

I'll ask just one question. What constitutional right is being violated here?

You're asking me because...?

You're asking me because...?

if you're arguing about "liberty being tossed out the window" perhaps you could point out exactly what liberty is being lost by this.

Or were you just spouting off emotive fallacy without support?

...again.

if you're arguing about "liberty being tossed out the window" perhaps you could point out exactly what liberty is being lost by this.

I never mentioned "constitutional rights." I'm sorry you confused your imagination of what I said with what I actually said. "Liberty" and "constitutional rights" are not synonymous either.

Perhaps you could use that giant ego of yours, combine it with the brain you almost certainly have, and similarly imagine possible ways that this could curtail liberties. Then you could argue with yourself, as you seem to want to be doing right now.


Or were you just spouting off emotive fallacy without support?

...again.

Ooh, burn. You're so clever, did you know that? Run along now.

I never mentioned "constitutional rights." I'm sorry you confused your imagination of what I said with what I actually said. "Liberty" and "constitutional rights" are not synonymous either.

Your freedom to do something only exists insofar as there is a regime in place to prevent such thing from being restricted.

In this country, liberty is inseparable from our constitutional rights. Our liberties only extend as far as the constitution says they do.

But I suppose it was my fault in assuming that you were talking about the real world, and not the imaginary fantasy world. My apologies, I momentarily forgot who I was talking to.

If profiling doesnt violate the Constitution, then why did the Government until now bend over backwards to say that profiling was bad and wasnt legal and shouldnt be allowed?

In this country, liberty is inseparable from our constitutional rights. Our liberties only extend as far as the constitution says they do.

is/ought

in so far as the constitution doesn't properly protect our rightful liberty, the constitution ought be fucking changed.

is/ought

in so far as the constitution doesn't properly protect our rightful liberty, the constitution ought be fucking changed.

There is no such thing as an "unprotected liberty". It's an oxymoron. Either you have the freedom to do something, or you do not. Now maybe there things that should be liberties that are not. I leave that as an personal exercise for the individual.

But in America, liberties are protected by the constitution and even more refined by state constitutions. And since this is the FBI, a federal agency, the only liberties we have vis-à-vis the federal government are those protected by the federal government. So to claim that we have some "liberties" in regards to how the federal government may treat us that are not within the constitution is, again, kind of silly since, as I said, there's no such thing as an unprotected liberty.

There is no such thing as an "unprotected liberty". It's an oxymoron. Either you have the freedom to do something, or you do not. Now maybe there things that should be liberties that are not. I leave that as an personal exercise for the individual.

But in America, liberties are protected by the constitution and even more refined by state constitutions. And since this is the FBI, a federal agency, the only liberties we have vis-à-vis the federal government are those protected by the federal government. So to claim that we have some "liberties" in regards to how the federal government may treat us that are not within the constitution is, again, kind of silly since, as I said, there's no such thing as an unprotected liberty.

If not on Constitutional grounds then on what grounds was profiling deemed illegal previously? Isnt treating someone differently based on Race a violation of the Constitution? This is Racial discrimination cubed. Not only can the government start an investigation based on your race, they can start one based on your sexual orientation or if your a Democrat. No way this can pass Constitutional muster.

If not on Constitutional grounds then on what grounds was profiling deemed illegal previously? Isnt treating someone differently based on Race a violation of the Constitution? This is Racial discrimination cubed. Not only can the government start an investigation based on your race, they can start one based on your sexual orientation or if your a Democrat. No way this can pass Constitutional muster.

not quite. The general rule is that one's race can't be used as probable cause for a search or arrest (unless of course ones race is part of a descriptor of a perpetrator).

There's no search here, there's no arrest from this. This is evaluating where to use resources based on most probable threats. Now we can argue whether that's valid and wise or not, but it's not particularly unconstitutional, as they're not using someone's race as a factor in determining articulable suspicion/probable cause.

There is no such thing as an "unprotected liberty"

only if you assume liberty begins and ends with government pronouncements. this is, of course, a nonsensical position to take. governments unjustly restrict liberty all the time, and everyone agrees this is the case on pain of having to say that slavery is only wrong when the state says it is.

the fact that you don't currently get to exercise certain types and levels of liberty in no way implies that they aren't really yours - in exactly the same way as having one of your material possessions stolen doesn't mean it is no longer yours. effective and rightful are independent categories.

Yep. This kind of policy worked wonders on the "No Fly List". I can't wait for the first news story of FBI agents investigating a 2 year old as a terror suspect. :p

Now we can argue whether that's valid and wise or not, but it's not particularly unconstitutional, as they're not using someone's race as a factor in determining articulable suspicion/probable cause.

Why not? It certianly doesnt exclude the possibility of using race in determining articulable suspicion.

only if you assume liberty begins and ends with government pronouncements. this is, of course, a nonsensical position to take. governments unjustly restrict liberty all the time, and everyone agrees this is the case on pain of having to say that slavery is only wrong when the state says it is.

What is free is not necessarily what is right. Was it right that people could own slaves? Absolutely not. But the fact that it was wrong doesn't change the fact that they could, until they could not.

the fact that you don't currently get to exercise certain types and levels of liberty in no way implies that they aren't really yours

Of course it does. A liberty is that which you are free to do. If you are not free to do it, you don't have that liberty.

- in exactly the same way as having one of your material possessions stolen doesn't mean it is no longer yours.

poor analogy, far better would be trying to claim something is yours when there is no system of property law to assign ownership to you.

effective and rightful are independent categories.

That may be so, but there's no such thing as an unprotected liberty. The liberties we should have may not be the same as the liberties we do have, but to say a law violates liberties is to say it violates the freedoms we do have, not the freedoms weshould have.

If you want to claim a law violates a liberty, you need to look to the source of liberties, the constitution.

Why not? It certianly doesnt exclude the possibility of using race in determining articulable suspicion.

It is important to note, however, that nothing in the attorney general's guidelines can authorize what is prohibited by any statute or by the Constitution.

Did you read your own link? I'm not sure what part of this is so complicated. This would not in any way authorize the FBI to commit any unconstitutional act. Currently FBI policy is more restrictive than what is constitutionally required. They're talking about loosening those restrictions, but there's nothing in that which would result in a constitutional violation.

Again it's just armchair internet lawyers who don't understand the laws of this country anywhere close to as much as they think they do.

Yep. This kind of policy worked wonders on the "No Fly List". I can't wait for the first news story of FBI agents investigating a 2 year old as a terror suspect. :p

http://agoldenworld.files.wordpress.com/2006/04/StewieGriffin2%20400w.gif

"Blast it! How did the FBI catch on to my plans!? It was you wasn't it Ernie? Ohhhh yes, I've always had my suspicions about you ever since the day that was brought to me by the letter T. As in 'TREASON!' 'TREACHERY!' and don't forget 'TERMINATED!'"

*ZAP*

Did you read your own link? I'm not sure what part of this is so complicated. This would not in any way authorize the FBI to commit any unconstitutional act. Currently FBI policy is more restrictive than what is constitutionally required. They're talking about loosening those restrictions, but there's nothing in that which would result in a constitutional violation.

Again it's just armchair internet lawyers who don't understand the laws of this country anywhere close to as much as they think they do.

Ok, let me see where i am disconnecting here. Let me move step by step. Is it against the Constitution to racially profile a US citizen by the federal government?

The liberties we should have may not be the same as the liberties we do have, but to say a law violates liberties is to say it violates the freedoms we do have, not the freedoms weshould have.

If you want to claim a law violates a liberty, you need to look to the source of liberties, the constitution.

even if we accept your proposed distinction, this just simply doesn't follow. if there are liberties we should have, then to say that something violates liberty could just as easily be to say that it violates the liberty we ought have. in fact, this is the most natural reading of the phrase. after all, it is what we should have, and the law in question works against it - it violates what ought be the case.

your reading is actually saying that law X violates the law, regardless of any liberties we ought have. which is changing the subject, as T noted.

My line of work sometimes requires investigations that sometimes involve crimes, so I can understand where they're coming from wanting to do these things.

However, from the operational standpoint, I know that profiling can produce modest results but the ultimate effect is rather limited because so many times the profile doesn't match the situation. Additionally, such a broad scope of investigations is resource intensive and could be unfeasible. Not to mention the potential for abuse is much higher than past measures that have been controversial. And in any security-type operation if profiling becomes relied upon it becomes a vulnerability, which I suspect is already happening.

http://agoldenworld.files.wordpress.com/2006/04/StewieGriffin2%20400w.gif

"Blast it! How did the FBI catch on to my plans!? It was you wasn't it Ernie? Ohhhh yes, I've always had my suspicions about you ever since the day that was brought to me by the letter T. As in 'TREASON!' 'TREACHERY!' and don't forget 'TERMINATED!'"

*ZAP*

Yay! :D

Your freedom to do something only exists insofar as there is a regime in place to prevent such thing from being restricted.

In this country, liberty is inseparable from our constitutional rights. Our liberties only extend as far as the constitution says they do.

Plainly nonsense. There is more to liberty than the constitution. Which, again, I was not talking about, nor do I claim that the Constitution is being violated, so your asking me to identify constitutional violations remains a strawman fallacy.

But I suppose it was my fault in assuming that you were talking about the real world, and not the imaginary fantasy world. My apologies, I momentarily forgot who I was talking to.

Nah, it was your fault for trying to put words in my mouth so you could have your little constitutional debate, regardless of what I actually said. It was your fault for conducting a stupid strawman, just like your needless ad hominems and your childish, immature insults. Grow up, is my advice to you.

If you want to claim a law violates a liberty, you need to look to the source of liberties, the constitution.

Doesn't the ninth amendment more or less say that the constitution is not the sole source of liberties?

This guy has a set of balls on him that makes a bull say DAMN.

Terror profiling without evidence considered in U.S. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-07-02-terror-profiling_N.htm?csp=34

I should think at this point id stop being suprised by attacks on US civil liberties by our own government but they seem to be never ending. The bastard Bush MADE me vote for Hillary last election as a protest vote. I can never forgive him.

Yes, let's NOT profile the demographic groups that are responsible for 99% of terrorist acts. Profiling is not a violation of your rights unless your rights are somehow hindered or violated in some way. If you visit jihadist web sites and your name is Abdullah or Kasim I would say the government is within its right to open a file on you.

I am sure most of you never minded the profiling of American citizens who were members of a militias and gun clubs after the OKC bombing.

Perhaps if these "moderate" Muslims actually spoke out against the atrocities committed in the name of Islam people would not connect it with terrorism. As it stands, when the Islamic world rages at cartoons, writers, movie makers, dogs in posters, etc. it is hard to take their "moderation" seriously.

This guy has a set of balls on him that makes a bull say DAMN.

Terror profiling without evidence considered in U.S. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-07-02-terror-profiling_N.htm?csp=34

I should think at this point id stop being suprised by attacks on US civil liberties by our own government but they seem to be never ending. The bastard Bush MADE me vote for Hillary last election as a protest vote. I can never forgive him.

You know what really gets me? His supporters will say that "If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide." That isn't the point. One of the greatest principles Americans have is "innocent until proven guilty." Abandoning that makes us no better than any tinpot dictatorship.

Yes, let's NOT profile the demographic groups that are responsible for 99% of terrorist acts. Profiling is not a violation of your rights unless your rights are somehow hindered or violated in some way.

This is absurd logic. 99% of all violence against gays is from heterosexuals. Therefore the government has the right to open a file on all heterosexuals because they are targeting the demographic group for that crime right?

African Americans commit the most crimes so every one of them should be profiled so the government can keep an eye on them all right?

This guy has a set of balls on him that makes a bull say DAMN.

Terror profiling without evidence considered in U.S. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-07-02-terror-profiling_N.htm?csp=34

I should think at this point id stop being suprised by attacks on US civil liberties by our own government but they seem to be never ending. The bastard Bush MADE me vote for Hillary last election as a protest vote. I can never forgive him.

We've already been doing this. And I'm all for it.

Perhaps if these "moderate" Muslims actually spoke out against the atrocities committed in the name of Islam people would not connect it with terrorism. As it stands, when the Islamic world rages at cartoons, writers, movie makers, dogs in posters, etc. it is hard to take their "moderation" seriously.

1- They do. There are sites and more sites, declarations and more declarations, which YOU choose to ignore because it suits YOU when trying to back up an opinion YOU already held. The problem is YOU.

2- You'd better start spending your horrid existence raving against the evils of Ku-Kux-Klan and Fred Phelps, if you're going to keep playing this old, stale, IDIOTIC "they don't speak up" card.

We've already been doing this. And I'm all for it.

Did you say so after the Oklahoma City bombings?

And I thought they couldn't make the lives of american muslims any harder, way to go Bush you've surpassed Hitler on being a complete dickead, why not set up your own gestapo?!

Gitmo.

Did you say so after the Oklahoma City bombings?

Probably up to the point McVeigh and Nichols were caught and Kimchi realized a Muslim didn't blow up the Federal Building.

habeas corpus principle is unknown in the US ?

[QUOTE]1- They do. There are sites and more sites, declarations and more declarations, which YOU choose to ignore because it suits YOU when trying to back up an opinion YOU already held. The problem is YOU.

They do. In very small numbers and considering the polls and data coming from the Middle East and Europe, a great many Muslims see it as a legitimate method of "diplomacy". You could actually source this upheaval of anger at terrorism in the Muslim world and engage in debate rather than emotional stupidity.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1167467849587&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19934792/

2- You'd better start spending your horrid existence raving against the evils of Ku-Kux-Klan and Fred Phelps, if you're going to keep playing this old, stale, IDIOTIC "they don't speak up" card.

My "horrid existence"? I have a wonderful life. If you ask me about the stupidities and evil-mindedness of the KKK I will, and do, go into them. But excuse me for asking, just when did the KKK develop a international network of terrorists dedicated to imposing a Medieval religionous upon the entire world? The KKK is widely and justifiably reviled while a significant portion of the Muslim world celebrates AQ and Islamist terrorism.

So no, they don't speak up and they don't police their own. I have heard "moderates" condemning terrorist acts against other Muslims but not against us Infidels.

So put up or shut up.

habeas corpus principle is unknown in the US ?

Most of its gone, but this last Supreme Court restored a tiny sliver of it.

Most of its gone, but this last Supreme Court restored a tiny sliver of it.

Actually, US citizens never lost habeas corpus the Supreme Court just extended that right to non-citizens who are attacking our troops and targeting civilians. Good job!

Actually, US citizens never lost habeas corpus the Supreme Court just extended that right to non-citizens who are attacking our troops and targeting civilians. Good job!

I know. The bastards. Making us follow our own laws and all.

I know. The bastards. Making us follow our own laws and all.

Um... we have been following our own laws. Since when do we extend those rights to non-citizens during a war?

Actually, US citizens never lost habeas corpus the Supreme Court just extended that right to non-citizens who are attacking our troops and targeting civilians. Good job!

We interrupt this episode of "Mom and Apple Pie" to bring you....
1. Fifty-five percent (55%) of the detainees are not determined to have committed any hostile acts against the United States or its coalition allies. Email
Print
2. Only 8% of the detainees were characterized as al Qaeda fighters. Of the remaining detainees, 40% have no definitive connection with al Qaeda at all and 18% are have no definitive affiliation with either al Qaeda or the Taliban.

3. The Government has detained numerous persons based on mere affiliations with a large number of groups that in fact, are not on the Department of Homeland Security terrorist watchlist. Moreover, the nexus between such a detainee and such organizations varies considerably. Eight percent are detained because they are deemed "fighters for;" 30% considered "members of;" a large majority - 60% -- are detained merely because they are "associated with" a group or groups the Government asserts are terrorist organizations. For 2% of the prisoners their nexus to any terrorist group is unidentified.

4. Only 5% of the detainees were captured by United States forces. 86% of the detainees were arrested by either Pakistan or the Northern Alliance and turned over to United States custody. This 86% of the detainees captured by Pakistan or the Northern Alliance were handed over to the United States at a time in which the United States offered large bounties for capture of suspected enemies.

5. Finally, the population of persons deemed not to be enemy combatants - mostly Uighers - are in fact accused of more serious allegations than a great many persons still deemed to be enemy combatants.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeralyn-merritt/guantanamo-by-the-numbers_b_15317.html

We interrupt this episode of "Mom and Apple Pie" to bring you....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeralyn-merritt/guantanamo-by-the-numbers_b_15317.html

Huffington Post? Seriously? For a group of people that bitch and moan about FOX News so much you seem to have no trouble sourcing the most leftist of news sources. What is next DailyKos?

Anyway, this pertains to giving them the rights of a US citizen how? They were seized either by us or our allies during a time of war. Period.

Not to mention the fact that these detainees seem to be going through the system rather effectively without the rights of US citizens. Could it be the military tribunals are effective?

So no, they don't speak up and they don't police their own. I have heard "moderates" condemning terrorist acts against other Muslims but not against us Infidels.

I haven't actually heard you condemn the KKK. Therefore you don't police your own, and you are in fact responsible for supporting the KKK.

Also, I haven't heard you ever condemn the Nazis. Therefore you don't police your own and you are in fact responsible for supporting the Nazis.

People like you with your constant, whining demands for "condemnation" make me sick. When they come, you ignore 'em anyway - it's not good enough for you. It never will be. You're a Muslim-hater, and you're afraid, and irrational - and that's what this is all about.

So put up or shut up.

You better start condemning everything bad that is associated with your religion, race, ethnicity, nation, culture, gender, sexual preference and political issues stances. I mean, get on that right now! Better hurry!

Huffington Post? Seriously? For a group of people that bitch and moan about FOX News so much you seem to have no trouble sourcing the most leftist of news sources. What is next DailyKos?

partisanship doesn't have anything to do with either the legitimacy of a source or the truth of the source's claims.

fox news is looked down on because it is nothing other than the official propaganda arm of the republican party, and as such freely makes shit up when it isn't content to merely misrepresent things. it is immediately suspect on those grounds, and can be accepted only when proven accurate

on the other hand, the great orange satan is quite regularly full of thoughtful and well researched articles. if on a first glance the dkos diary in question appears to be one of those sort, i would rank it higher than almost any traditional media analysis until we have reason to believe otherwise. especially given the critical and analytical nature of leftblogistan - even at its worst it has never been nearly as prone to the embarrassingly hilarious (though also dangerous, considering...) insane bullshit of the right-wing online echo chamber/whisper campaign platform.

Im waiting for him to just go apeshit and attack Luxembourg or something...

At least then EVERYONE would have to know he's fuckin crazy, lol...

the Supreme Court just extended that right to non-citizens who are attacking our troops and targeting civilians.
WERE they? Is there any evidence that they were? The whole point of habeas corpus is that you really ought to know whether the people you've grabbed have or haven't done anything.

Okay, folks, I came up with a game we can play here...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13810335&postcount=215 - Only, with TSF.

First one that gets to 10 points wins.

Also, no previous posts count.

Actually, US citizens never lost habeas corpus the Supreme Court just extended that right to non-citizens who are attacking our troops and targeting civilians. Good job!One would assume you had to prove they were attacking before locking them up and throwing away the key. Hence it's only sporting that we allow them to try to prove they weren't attacking.

Huffington Post? Seriously?

Poisoning the well. That site merely refers to a report compiled by two lawyers. based on data supplied by the US defence Department.

A link to the actual report was contained in the article. I supply it here to spare us further drama re its sourcing.....
http://law.shu.edu/news/guantanamo_report_final_2_08_06.pdf

Would you care to respond to that data, which makes it seem that your claims are rather far fetched and exaggerated...?

Anyway, this pertains to giving them the rights of a US citizen how?

They don't have the full rights pertaining to a US citizen as it stands. You're exaggerating again. Also, as a great many of them don't actually seem to have been combatants or anything like, it would undermine your earlier claims.



Not to mention the fact that these detainees seem to be going through the system rather effectively without the rights of US citizens. Could it be the military tribunals are effective?

Given the period between their seizure and "trial" - no. Given the nature of the tribunal - no. Given the fact that the vast majority are not up before this Tribunal even now - no. Given the nature of the detention and interrogation - no. Etc and so on.

How'd they get it from good woman to bad man?That's on a different, current thread.
Re: Barringtonia / Marie Barringtoinette

Remember, a vote for McCain is a vote for Four More Years of this kind of bullshit.
It helps to list his current assembly for Cabinet, just so people know who EXACTLY has his "ear".
Rhymes with "froggy mist"

these whining liberals
Right about here, it shows a mental derailment.
Sometime, schoolwork alloting, you might consider in your mind - give serious thought - to what is so bad about a "liberal" KNOWING and DEFENDING their constitutional RIGHTS, whereas so many cowards in other areas of political spectra are so willing to have their RIGHTS sucked/fucked/bought from them. And the concurrent cowardice of the barrage of media attack everyone has had to endure from people so willing to do the sucking/fucking/buying/selling.

Yes, let's NOT profile the demographic groups that are responsible for 99% of terrorist acts. Profiling is not a violation of your rights unless your rights are somehow hindered or violated in some way. If you visit jihadist web sites and your name is Abdullah or Kasim I would say the government is within its right to open a file on you.
Responsible for terrorist acts where? If most of these didn't happen in the US, and the people responsible for most of the terrorist acts in the US were not a part of that group - why the hell are that demographic subjected to profiling in the US?

I am sure most of you never minded the profiling of American citizens who were members of a militias and gun clubs after the OKC bombing.
Seems like you're still OK with it.


Perhaps if these "moderate" Muslims actually spoke out against the atrocities committed in the name of Islam people would not connect it with terrorism. As it stands, when the Islamic world rages at cartoons, writers, movie makers, dogs in posters, etc. it is hard to take their "moderation" seriously.
The sad part is that you just choose to ignore it. Do they have to repeat themselves every single week for your benefit?

Do they have to repeat themselves every single week for your benefit?

Win.

Yea but a vote for Obama means a recinding of the Bush tax breaks of 2001. This is bad for everyone.
What the ones to the upper 10%?

This is bad why? Oh yeah because that 10% would punish the remaining 90% for not letting them get their way. Nevermind.

You know what really gets me? His supporters will say that "If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide." That isn't the point. One of the greatest principles Americans have is "innocent until proven guilty." Abandoning that makes us no better than any tinpot dictatorship.

What's really bad is it's not a far jump to "We don't like your ideas so we will SAY you did something wrong then lock you up forever. And if we declare you an "Enemy Combatant" we don't even need to bother with a trial.

Yes actual conviction for "Thoughtcrime".

You know what really gets me? His supporters will say that "If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide." That isn't the point. One of the greatest principles Americans have is "innocent until proven guilty." Abandoning that makes us no better than any tinpot dictatorship.

I've always said it ever since the USAPATRIOT Act was passed and I'll say it again. "If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide" is codespeak for "Thank Jesus I'm not a Dirty Brown Muslim."

I've always said it ever since the USAPATRIOT Act was passed and I'll say it again. "If you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to hide" is codespeak for "Thank Jesus I'm not a Dirty Brown Muslim."

Too true, too true.

What's really bad is it's not a far jump to "We don't like your ideas so we will SAY you did something wrong then lock you up forever. And if we declare you an "Enemy Combatant" we don't even need to bother with a trial.

Yes actual conviction for "Thoughtcrime".

Well, I have enough belief in mankind that I think that won't happen.

I will address this idiot since he stands out amongst the rest of the idiots that responded to me.

Responsible for terrorist acts where?

How about...

1969
Feb. 18 - Boeing 707 attacked at Zurich, Switzerland, killing the pilot and 3 passengers.
Aug. 29 - TWA 707 hijacked from Rome to Damascus, released with only wounded.
Nov. 27- EL AL office in Athens, Greece attacked. Innocent bystanders killed.

1970
Feb. 21 - Swiss airliner blown up over Switzerland, killing all 47 people on board.
Feb. 23 - PLO terrorists open fire on a busload of Christian pilgrims killing 1 and wounding 2 Americans.
April 21- Bomb explodes aboard a Philippines airliner. All 36 aboard are killed.
Sept. 6 - “Skyjack Sunday” in Jordan. 3 planes (TWA, Swissair, Pan Am) en route to the U.S. hijacked, 400+ hostages, planes blown up in Jordan
Sept. 14 - The PFLP hijacked TWA flight to Ammon, 4 Americans injured.

1971
Nov. 28 - Jordanian prime minister Tal killed by terrorists at the Sheraton Hotel in Cairo, Egypt.
Dec. - Jordanian ambassador to London, England is shot by hit squad.

1972
Jan. 26 - Bomb explodes on a Yugoslav plane killing all but one passenger.
May 30 - Ben Gurion Airport, Israel attack killed 26, and wounded 78 U.S. citizens from Puerto Rico.
Sept. 5 - Palestinian terrorists seize 11 athletes in the Olympic Village in Munich, Germany, 9 hostages and 5 terrorists killed, plus David Berger from Cleveland.

1973
March 2 - Khartoum, Sudan. Cleo Noel, Jr., U.S. ambassador, and George C. Moore, U.S. diplomat, were held hostage and then killed by terrorists at the U.S. Embassy.
Aug. 5 - Suicide squad attacks Athens airport, Greece, killing 3 civilians and injuring 55.
Dec. 17 - Bomb explodes at Pan Am office at Rome, Italy killing 32 and injuring 50+. The terrorists take 7 Italian policemen hostage and hijack an aircraft to Athens, Greece, killing one of them.

1974
March 1 - Diplomats taken hostage from Saudi Arabian Embassy in Khartoum, Sudan, 2 that are killed are Americans.
April 11 - Kiryat Shmona Massacre at an apartment building killing 18 people, 9 were children.
Sept. 8 - Athens, Greece. TWA Flight 841 exploded from bomb in cargo hold, all 88 passengers killed, including 32-year-old Steven Lowe, an American citizen.
Nov. 23 - British DC-10 hijacked at Dubai, UAE, flown to Tunisia where a German passenger was killed.

1975
Jan. 19 - Arab terrorists attack Orly airport, Paris, France, seizing 10 hostages from a bathroom. French provided the terrorists with a plane to fly them to safety in Baghdad, Iraq.
Sept. 30 - Hungarian airplane explodes killing all 64 persons on board.
Dec. 21 - Carlos “The Jackal” holds 11 oil ministers and 59 civilians hostage during the OPEC meeting in Vienna, Austria. Flew to Algeria, got $300,000,000 in ransom money, Carlos and his Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine terrorists escape.

1976
Jan. 1 - 82 innocent travelers are killed aboard a Lebanese plane.
June 27 - Air France airliner hijacked, forced to fly to Uganda. Some 258 passengers and crew are held hostage. 3 passengers killed. July 4th, Israeli commandos rescue the remaining hostages.
Aug. 11 - Terrorists attack Istanbul airport, Turkey, killing 4 civilians (1 from U.S.) and injuring 20.
Dec. 4 - Terrorists occupied the Indonesian Embassy in The Hague, Netherlands, 1 official killed.
Dec. 14 - Passenger train hijacked and passengers were kept hostage, 3 were killed.

1977
Jan. 1 - F.E. Melov U.S. ambassador to Lebanon, and Robert O.Waring, the U.S. economic counselor, kidnapped and later killed in Beirut.
Oct. 13 - Palestinian terrorists hijack a Lufthansa Flight 181 Boeing 737 and order it to fly around a number of Middle East destinations for four days, pilot is killed by the terrorists, 90 hostages rescued.

1978
March 11 - Gail Rubin, niece of U.S. Senator Ribicoff, among 38 people shot to death by terrorists on a beach near Tel Aviv.
June 2 - A bomb kills 2 people at the CHOGM meeting in Sydney Australia.

1979
July 29 - Terrorist bombs two railway stations in Madrid, kills 7.
Nov. 4 - Terrorists seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. 13 freed, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981 - 444 days - at the inauguration of President Ronald Reagan.

1980
April 30 - Terrorists took over the Iranian Embassy in London, holding 26 hostages, 2 of whom died on May 5th after being tortured. Much of the embassy was destroyed by fire.

1981
April 19 - 13 people killed, 177 injured in a terrorist attack in Davao Philippines.
May 13 - Pope John Paul II seriously wounded in assassination attempt in Rome, Italy, by terrorist Mehmet Ali Agca.
Oct. 6 - Egyptian President Anwar Sadat machine gunned dead by Islamic Jihad in Cairo for working for peace. 7 others killed, 28 wounded. The assassins are later executed.

1982
Beginning of the 8 years of terrorism in Lebanon.
July 19 - David Dodge, President of the American University in Beirut kidnapped, spends one year in captivity.
Aug. 19 - Two American citizens, Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were killed along with 6 others when the PLO bombed a Kosher restaurant in Paris, France.
Sept. 14 - Lebanon’s President Gemayel and 26 others assassinated by a massive car bomb in Beirut.

1983
Mar. 16 - 5 Marines wounded in hand grenade attack on Beirut International Airport.
April 18 - CIA’s Middle East Director, and 83 others are killed, 120 injured in truck bomb on the US Embassy in Lebanon.
Sept. 29 - Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed, explodes killing all 166 aboard.
Oct. 23 - Simultaneous suicide truck bombs in Lebanon: 1st crashed into lobby of US Marine Corps Headquarters, 241 Marines dead, 82 seriously injured - and 2nd was French compounds killing 58 paratroopers.
Dec. 12 - US Embassy in Kuwait targeted to destroy the building with a truck bomb, attack foiled by guards and the device killed 5 people and injured 80.

1984
Jan. 18 - Malcolm Kerr, President of the American University of Beirut, was killed by two Hizballah gunmen.
Mar. 8 - Rev. Weir and wife kidnapped in Lebanon and held for 16 months.
Mar. 9 - Car bomb kills 80 (22 Americans) and wounds more than 200 civilians when it drove past the checkpoint at the U.S. Embassy in Awkar.
Mar. 16 - Hizballah kidnapped, tortured and killed William Buckley, an officer at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut.
Apr. 12 - Hizballah bombed restaurant adjacent to US Air Force base in Torregon Spain, 18 servicemen killed and 83 Americans wounded.
Sept. 20- US embassy in the Beirut is bombed - 2 servicemen and 23 employees are killed, 21 Americans injured including the U.S. and British Ambassadors. 50+ Lebanese were injured.
Dec. 4 - Terrorists hijacked Kuwait Airlines Flight 221 and demanded the release from Kuwaiti jails of some members, serving sentences for attacks on French and American targets. 2 Americans murdered.

1985
March 16 - US journalist Terry Anderson kidnapped in Lebanon, finally released in Dec. 1991 - 6 years later.
April 5 - Bomb explodes outside Hezbollah headquarters in Beirut killing 80 people.
April 12 - Bombing of U.S. soldier’s favorite restaurant in Madrid, killing 18 and injuring 82.
June 14 - TWA Boeing 727 Flight 847 hijacked en route to Rome, 8 crew and 145 passengers were held for 17 days, U.S. Navy diver was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the hostages were released after the US pressured to release 435 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners.
Sept. 30 - Four Soviet diplomats kidnapped in Lebanon, 1 killed but other three released unharmed after a relative of the terrorist leader’s was kidnapped and killed by the Soviet KGB.
Oct. 7 - Terrorists seize the Italian cruise liner, Achille Lauro, during a cruise in the Mediterranean, taking more than 700 people hostage for 3 days. Disabled U.S. citizen, Leon Klinghoffer, was murdered in front of other hostages by throwing him in the ocean, before the Egyptian Government offered the terrorists safe haven in return for the hostages’ freedom.
Nov. 23 - 98 passengers and crew of an Egyptair Flight 648 are held hostage by Palestinian terrorists in Malta. 5 passengers shot, 2 died, later 57 additional passengers killed when the terrorists set off explosives in the aircraft.
Dec. 27 - Suicide grenade and gun attacks in passenger terminals at Rome and Vienna, Italy airports results in 16 people being killed plus 5 Americans and more than 100 civilians injured.

1986
March 30-April 2nd - A bomb exploded on a TWA flight 840 from Rome as it approached Athens airport. The attack killed 4 U.S. citizens who were sucked through a hole made by the blast, 1 infant, and 9 injured, although the plane safely landed.
April 6 - An explosion at the “La Belle” nightclub in Berlin, U.S. soldiers’ hang-out, was bombed, killing 3 and injuring 230 people, including 79 U.S. soldiers.
Sept. 5 - Pan Am Boeing 747 Flight 73 en route to Frankfurt and on to New York hijacked by Palestinian terrorists, with 379 passengers, including 89 Americans, 22 hostages killed, 127 wounded.
Sept. 9 - Hezballah kidnapped Frank Reed, President of American University in Beirut, and held for 44 months, and Joseph Cicippio, and Edward Tracy who were each held for 5 years.
Sept. 17 - A 10-month series of terrorist bomb attacks in France begins. One bomb in Paris kills 5 and injures 52.

1987
A car bomb exploded outside the back gate of the U.S. Embassy in Rome and rockets were fired at the compound from across the street. One passerby was injured in the attacks.

1988
Feb. 5 - US Marine Corps Lt. Colonel Higgens, Chief of the U.N. Truce Force kidnapped and murdered by Hezbollah.
April 5 - 122 held hostage after a Kuwaiti Boeing 747 was hijacked and diverted to Iran, then Cyprus. Kuwait refused requests by hijackers to release 17 convicted terrorists. After 15 days the hijackers were granted asylum in Algeria and released their hostages.
June 26 - US Naval Attache killed in Athens, Greece.
Dec. 21 - Pan Am Flight 103 - Boeing 747 from London to New York, blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a bomb. All 259 passengers and 11 on the ground were killed, including 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel.

1989
June 12 - A bomb exploded aboard an unoccupied boat used by U.S. consular staff.
Sept. 19 - 171 passengers killed when French UTA flight 772 explodes in mid-air over Niger.
October 11 - Izmir, Turkey. A bomb went off outside a U.S. military PX.

1990
Feb. - Attack of tour bus in Egypt killing 11.

1991
Feb. 7 - Incirlik Air Base, Turkey, U.S. civilian contractor shot as he was getting into his car.
Oct. 28 - Ankara, Turkey. Victor Marwick, an American soldier serving at the Turkish-American base, Tuslog, was killed and his wife wounded in a car bomb attack.
Oct. 28 - Two car bombings killed a U.S. Air Force Sergeant and severely wounded an Egyptian diplomat in Istanbul.
Nov. 8 - Bomb destroyed part of the American University in Beirut, killing 1 and wounding 12.

1992
March 17 - Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, destroyed by bomb killing 29, injuring 60.
Hotel in Yemen bombed and U.S. servicemen killed, Operation Restore Hope.

1993
Jan. 25, Virginia, U.S.A. A Pakistani terrorist opened fire with AK-47 on CIA employees standing outside the building. Two agents, Frank Darling and Bennett Lansing, were killed and 3 others wounded.
Feb. 26 - World Trade Center in New York badly damaged by a massive bomb by Islamic terrorists. The van bomb was planted in an underground garage and left 6 people dead and 1042 injured and almost � billion dollars in damage.
Feb. 26 - A bomb exploded inside a cafe in downtown Cairo killing 3, 18 wounded, 2 U.S. citizens.
July 5 - In 8 separate incidents, 19 Western tourists traveling in southeastern Turkey were kidnapped, including U.S. citizen Starger, after weeks in captivity, they were released.
Oct - Killing of U. S. soldiers in Somalia.

1994
July 18 - 86 civilians killed and 300 wounded in bomb attack on Jewish social centre in Buneos Aires, Argentina.
July 26 - Israeli Embassy in London is car-bombed, wounding 20.
Air France Flight 8969 is hijacked to crash the plane in Paris but didn’t succeed.
A small bomb explodes on board Philippine Airlines flight 434, killing a Japanese businessman.

1995
Jan. 22 - Islamic Jihad militants blow themselves up amid a group of soldiers near Netanya, killing 21. Operation Bojinka is discovered on a laptop in a Manila, Philippines apartment, in which Osama bin Laden was planning to blow up 12 planes as they flew to the U.S., plus kill the Pope.
March 8 - Attack on US Diplomats in Pakistan.
April 9 - Islamic Jihad suicide bomber attacks military convoy in Gaza, killing 7 soldiers and an American tourist.
May 5 - Five foreign oil workers murdered by Islamic GIA terrorists in Algeria.
June 26 - Assassination attempt made against Egyptian President Honsi Mubarak by Islamic radicals who ambushed his motorcade.
July 4 - Six tourists, including two U.S. citizens taken hostage in Kashmir, India. Terrorists demanded the release of Muslim militants held in Indian prisons. On Aug. 13 the decapitated body of the Norwegian hostage was found with a note stating that the other hostages also would be killed if the group’s demands were not met. They were not and all other hostages were killed in 1996 by the terrorists.
July 25 - Islamic terrorists explode bomb in metro station in Paris, France, killing 7 people and injuring 84.
Nov. 13 - Car bomb exploded at US Army Office of the Program Manager for Saudi Arabian National Guard Modernization, in Saudi Arabia, killing seven, five of them U.S. citizens, and wounding nearly a hundred.
Nov. 19 - Islamic radicals plant bomb in Egyptian embassy in Pakistan killing 17.
Dec. 11 - 15 concurrent car bombings in Algiers kill 15 civilians and over 200 injured.

1996
Feb. 11 - Terrorists explode car bomb in Algiers killing 17. The following month, 2 more killed in another bomb and 10 are killed in a train ambush in western Algeria.
Feb. 25 - A suicide bomber blew up a commuter bus in Jerusalem, killing 26, including 3 U.S. citizens, and injuring 80 others, among them another two U.S. citizens.
April 19 - Eighteen Greek tourists were gunned down near the historic Pyramids in Egypt by Islamic terrorists aiming to destroy the country’s tourist industry.
May - Osama bin Laden unites the Islamic Fundamentalists worldwide in their Jihad against Jews and Western Gentiles, such as al-Qaeda, Palestinian Authority, Hezbollah, Hamas, Mujahideen, using the Taliban’s organization to help fund the operations.
June 25 - Terrorists explode a truck bomb next to a USAF Khobar Towers housing facility at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killing 19 American servicemen and 515 injured including 240 U.S. personnel.
Islamic terrorists attack tourists in Luxor, Egypt, killing 71 people, most of them vacationers.
Aug. 26 - Sudan Airways A310 Airbus airliner hijacked en route to Jordan and diverted to England. British authorities negotiate with hijackers who release all the 13 crew and 180 passengers unharmed.
Dec. 3 - A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train, killing four and injuring 86 persons, including a U.S. citizen.
A terrorist opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the US, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself.
Dec. 23 - A car bomb in the Algerian capital, Algiers, kills three and injures 70 people in cafe near the port. Again a week later, a car bomb kills 28 people and injures 35 people. 3rd car bomb in the past two weeks, killing additional 13 people and injuring more than 250.

1997
Jan. 2 - Major cities worldwide and U.S. get letter bombs with Egyptian postmarks at newspaper bureaus in DC, New York, London, Riyadh, S.A., and Leavenworth, KN. Experts defused all but the 1 in London, injuring 2.
Jan. 7 to 21st - Islamic terrorist rampage during these 14 days with car bombs and beheadings in Algiers, total of 238 dead, 139 wounded.
Feb. 23 - Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State building in New York, killing 1 and wounding over a dozen visitors before turning the gun on himself.
March 7 - Two killed in bus bomb attack in Beijing, China.
April - Terrorists behead innocent civilians this whole month with a total of 272 murdered and over 100 injured. Knives, axes and chainsaws were used and many of the bodies were burned while still alive.
Sept. 18- 9 German tourists killed when Muslims fire bombed bus in Cairo, Egypt.
Nov. 12 - 2 Terrorists shot to death 4 U.S. auditors of a Texas petroleum company and their driver at a Sheraton Hotel in Karachi, Pakistan.
Nov. 17 - 58 western tourists killed and 30 injured in gun attack at historic monuments in southern Egypt. 6 of the Islamic terrorists are killed in shoot out with police.

1998
Jan. 15 - U.S. Embassy bombing in Peru.
Feb. 23 (Published) - A Statement signed by many Islamic Jihad Leaders from most Muslim countries, first by Sheikh Osamah Bin-Ladin: “…In compliance with God’s order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies–civilians and military–is an individual duty for every Muslim who can, in any country in which it is possible… We — with Allah’s help — call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded, to comply with Allah’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. Unless you go forth, Allah will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.”
Aug. 7 - Simultaneous bombs in US Embassies in Kenya, and Tanzania, heavily damaged by massive attacks. In the Nairobi attack 292 people were killed, including 12 Americans, and 5,000 injured. 10 people were killed and 86 injured in Tanzania incident for a total of 302 dead, 5086 injured within an hour.
Aug. 25 - 3 people killed and 25 injured in bomb attack on Planet Hollywood restaurant in Cape Town, South Africa.
Dec. 28 - 16 Western tourists kidnapped, 12 Britons, 2 U.S. citizens, and 2 Australians on the main road to Aden, Yemen. Four victims were killed during a rescue attempt the next day.

1999
Aug. 31 to Sept. 22nd - Russian apartment bombings kill almost 300 and injured 100.
Oct. 31 - EgyptAir Flight 990 crashed off the U.S. coast of Massachusetts, killing all 217 people on board, including 100 Americans.
Nov. 12 - Six rockets were fired at the U.S. and U.N. offices in Islamabad, Pakistan.
Dec. - Millennium terror plots foiled as customs agents arrest a man smuggling in explosives. Plan to attack Los Angeles airport and other sites intercepted by CIA. Also Jordanian authorities foil a plot to bomb US tourists in Jordan, pick up 28 suspects.
Indian Airlines Flight 814, en route to Delhi, India is hijacked, 1 passenger is killed. After negotiations with the Taliban, the hostages are released.

2000
The last of the 2000 millennium attack plots fails, as the boat meant to bomb USS The Sullivans sinks.
Oct. 12 - A suicide boat exploded next to the U.S.S. Cole (guided-missile destroyer), blowing a hole 40 feet in diameter, killing 17 American sailors and injuring 39.

2001
Feb. 5 - A bomb blast in Moscow’s Byelorusskaya subway station injures 15 people.
March 28 - Bombing at bus stop in Yemen. U.S. citizens injured including a 15 year old boy from NY.
Aug. 9 - Bombing at Sbarro’s pizzeria, killed 15 and wounded over 90, 2 of which were U.S. citizens.
Sept. 11 - 4 U.S. jetliners hijacked and forced to crash into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon like missiles, and 1 crashed in Pennsylvania on the way to the Capital Building in D.C. In all, 266 people perished in the four planes, 2602 people were killed on the ground, plus 343 firefighters, and 184 people at the Pentagon. Almost 5000 injured, 500 rescue workers now have respiratory ailments. 7 buildings collapsed in NY and 23 damaged, plus 4 subway stations.
Paris embassy terrorist attack plot foiled
Oct. 27 - Darya Khanah bombed
Dec. 13 - Terrorist attack on Indian Parliament.
Dec. 22 - Richard Reid, attempting to destroy American Airlines Flight 63 from Paris to Miami, is subdued by passengers and flight attendants before he could detonate his shoe bomb.

2002
Jan. 27 - A Palestinian woman triggered a massive explosion in Jerusalem killing 1 Israeli and injuring more than 150, including American Mark Sokolow, his wife, and both teenage daughters. Sokolow had survived the 9-11 attack on the World Trade Center, escaping from his law office on the 38th floor of the South Tower before it collapsed.
Feb. 16 - Bombing in Karnei Shomron, in a group of teenage girls from the U.S. 2 killed, 4 wounded.
Singapore embassies terrorist attack plot foiled
March 24 - 20 people die and 93 injured in 3 bomb attacks on Russian towns near the border of Chechnya.
April - Explosion at most historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, most are German tourists.
May 9 - A bomb exploded in Dagestan kills 42 people and injures 130 during Victory Day festivities.
French oil tanker Limburg bombing off Yemen
Kidnapping and murder of journalist Daniel Pearl
Oct. 12 - Bali car bombing of holidaymakers in a nightclub kills 202 Australian citizens.
Zamboanga bombings in the Philippines.
Oct. 19 - Car bomb explodes at McDonald’s restaurant in Moscow, killing 1 person and wounding 5.
Oct. 23 - Moscow theater hostage crisis begins; 120 hostages and 40 terrorists killed in rescue 3 days later.
Nov. - Kenyan hotel suicide bombing kills 16 safari tourists.
Marines attacked / murdered in Kuwait

2003
May 10- Suicide bombers killed 36 (10 U.S. citizens), at housing compounds for westerners in Riyadh, S.A. Many wounded.
May 12 - attack outside U.S. Consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.
May 14 - 16 die in a suicide bombing at a religious festival in southeastern Chechnya.
May - 4 bombs killed 33 tourists (8 U.S. citizens) in Casablanca, Morocco.
July 5 - 15 people die and 40 are injured in bomb attacks at a rock festival in Moscow.
Aug. 1 - An explosion at the Russian hospital in North Ossetia kills 50 people and injures 76.
Aug. - Suicide car bomb killed 12 and injured over 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.
Sept. 3- A bomb on a passenger train in southern Russia kills 7 people and injures 90.
Oct. 15 - Bombing of US diplomatic convoy in the Gaza Strip: 3 U.S. citizens killed.
Nov. - Explosions rocked a Riyadh, S.A. housing compound, killing 17.
Nov. - Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul kills 26, injures 22.
Dec. 5 - Suicide bombers kill 46 people in an attack on a train in southern Russia.
Dec. 9 - A blast in the center of Moscow kills 6 people and wounds at least 11.
Bombings of United States expatriate housing compounds in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kill 26 and injure 160.
Attacks in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead. The attack involved 12 bombers and 5 targets. The targets were “Western and Jewish”.
Istanbul Bombings: Within five days, truck bombs go off at two synagogues, the British Consulate, and the HSBC Bank in Istanbul, Turkey

2004
109 Kurds are killed in 2 suicide bombings in Arbil, Iraq
Feb. 6 - Bomb on Moscow subway kills 41.
Feb. 27 - Superferry 14 is bombed in the Philippines by Abu Sayyaf, killing 116.
March 11 - 10 Simultaneous bombings of busiest rush hour commuter trains in Madrid, Spain kills 202 people and injures more than 1,400.
April 21 - Bombing of a security building in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills 5.
May 29 - Al-Khobar massacres–Islamic terrorists kill 22 people and one American at an oil compound in Saudi Arabia.
June 8 - Robert Jacobs, a US defense contractor employee is assassinated at his home in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia by Al-Qaeda terrorists.
June 11 - Terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson, Jr. in Riyadh.
Aug. 24 - Russian airplane bombings kill 90.
Aug. 31 - A blast near a subway station entrance in northern Moscow, caused by a suicide bomber, kills 10 people and injures 33.
Sept. 1 - 3 - Beslan school hostage crisis in North Ossetia, Russia results in over 330 dead.
Sept. 9 - Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia was bombed, killing 9 people.
Oct. 7 - 3 car bombs explode in the Sinai Peninsula hotel, killing 32 and wounding 114, most of them tourists.

If you look closely you will see a good many Americans killed. What is happening now is that we finally have the gall to say we are not going to take it anymore.

If most of these didn't happen in the US, and the people responsible for most of the terrorist acts in the US were not a part of that group - why the hell are that demographic subjected to profiling in the US?


Seems like you're still OK with it.

Feel free to list out the terrorist acts performed by militia members and compare it to my list of Islamic terrorist acts. The OKC bombing was an anomaly and not supported by good percentage of a major religion.

The sad part is that you just choose to ignore it. Do they have to repeat themselves every single week for your benefit?

None of you have presented any source of moderate outrage against terrorism. I know why... there isn't any. My Iranian uncle once told me that the reason moderate Muslims are not heard is because they do not speak. Why? Because they are afraid of their fellow Muslims. That speaks volumes to me.

This pathetic argument of Gravlen's is what passes for a "win" on these forums? How very, very sad.

Okay, folks, I came up with a game we can play here...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13810335&postcount=215 - Only, with TSF.

First one that gets to 10 points wins.

Also, no previous posts count.

Just stating fact H2. You should give it a go sometime. Or you could just call people names and be infantile. Seems to have worked for you so far. To deny Islamic terrorism is to deny reality.

...ebil muslims...Sept. 11 - 4 U.S. jetliners hijacked and forced to crash into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon like missiles, and 1 crashed in Pennsylvania on the way to the Capital Building in D.C. In all, 266 people perished in the four planes, 2602 people were killed on the ground, plus 343 firefighters, and 184 people at the Pentagon. Almost 5000 injured, 500 rescue workers now have respiratory ailments. 7 buildings collapsed in NY and 23 damaged, plus 4 subway stations...
Eh? I don't think citing that particular incident helps your case, seeing as the "Official" summary (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/wreckless13/2008-A/Other/ZG-CLIPS-A1.jpg) of said events, from which you got your info apparently, is much less likely than this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/wreckless13/2008-A/Other/ZG-CLIPS-A26.jpg) explanation of the larger scope of events on and leading to that day.

BTW, this is fact, not opinion. When you weigh the evidence (And I've done a lot of looking into this incident), there are far more unanswered questions and mysteries involved with the official story, than the explanation I found. In addition, the world makes a wee bit more sense if you take the latter explanation, rather than the former. It's more congruent with US History as a whole.

To deny Islamic terrorism is to deny reality.
In a larger sense, to deny that Terrorism is practiced by any nation or ethnic group's members is to deny reality. To deny that Terrorism is not practiced by "Western" governments is to deny the reality of Depleted Uranium, Agent Orange, Cluster/Carpet Bombing, The military-industrial complex, World War I, World War II, The Cold War, The Vietnam War, Iraq War I/II, The War on Terrorism, and the neo-fascist movement throughout the world today. Finally, to deny that you are indeed perpetuating ignorance about why these acts of terrorism occur, is to deny reality. Namely, they occur because of the oppression placed on them by Israeli/Western domination over their whole society.

I do not condone what they do. It is terrible. Yet we are all responsible for what they do, for our Society has put them in a situation where it is all too likely they will choose to do what they do, and our Society continues to do so because it is profitable. We are responsible for those deaths because we continue to refuse to stand up in any major way to the organizations that do control Western Civilization, and have for hundreds of years. To not discuss this, and to instead try and prove that Islamic Terrorism exists without mentioning this, is akin to leaving out why the US separated from GB in 1776. It is unintelligent, and borderline imperial propaganda.

In a larger sense, to deny that Terrorism is practiced by any nation or ethnic group's members is to deny reality. To deny that Terrorism is not practiced by "Western" governments is to deny the reality of Depleted Uranium, Agent Orange, Cluster/Carpet Bombing, The military-industrial complex, World War I, World War II, The Cold War, The Vietnam War, Iraq War I/II, The War on Terrorism, and the neo-fascist movement throughout the world today. Finally, to deny that you are indeed perpetuating ignorance about why these acts of terrorism occur, is to deny reality. Namely, they occur because of the oppression placed on them by Israeli/Western domination over their whole society.

I do not condone what they do. It is terrible. Yet we are all responsible for what they do, for our Society has put them in a situation where it is all too likely they will choose to do what they do, and our Society continues to do so because it is profitable. We are responsible for those deaths because we continue to refuse to stand up in any major way to the organizations that do control Western Civilization, and have for hundreds of years. To not discuss this, and to instead try and prove that Islamic Terrorism exists without mentioning this, is akin to leaving out why the US separated from GB in 1776. It is unintelligent, and borderline imperial propaganda.

It's telling when someone digs up every instance of Islamic terrorism in the world and harps on it as if declaring that Muslims alone invented terrorism and suicide bombing (the Japenese pioneered that field, baby) and are the only group in the world to exclusively commit them.

A sad day for democracy and freedom indeed.

If this ever goes through, I will forever correct anyone who dares claim the USA to be the "land of freedom and liberty".

As they did for the FISA vote, and other things Bush wanted, I'm sure the Democrats will approve.

It's either that, or they get labeled "weak on terror". Since they haven't presented any alternative means of finding and locating terrorists that they could present as their own plan, they have to bend over and take it in the ass willingly.

This guy has a set of balls on him that makes a bull say DAMN.

Terror profiling without evidence considered in U.S. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-07-02-terror-profiling_N.htm?csp=34

I should think at this point id stop being suprised by attacks on US civil liberties by our own government but they seem to be never ending. The bastard Bush MADE me vote for Hillary last election as a protest vote. I can never forgive him.
I've been saying this since late in 2001. Young, Male, Arabic, Muslim are all good elements in the description of a suspect. We should double up the profiling at the airports and quit searching the 85 year old WW2 heroes with hip implants.

Just stating fact H2.

No you weren't.

As they did for the FISA vote, and other things Bush wanted, I'm sure the Democrats will approve.

It's either that, or they get labeled "weak on terror". Since they haven't presented any alternative means of finding and locating terrorists that they could present as their own plan, they have to bend over and take it in the ass willingly.
Stretching this a little -- the Democrats haven't done ANYTHING since getting control of both houses of Congress.

And thank goodness for that!

I've been saying this since late in 2001. Young, Male, Arabic, Muslim are all good elements in the description of a suspect. We should double up the profiling at the airports and quit searching the 85 year old WW2 heroes with hip implants.

Young, Male, American, Soldier are all pretty good elements in the description of rape suspects in Okinawa, Myrmi. I'm sure you remember our little debate a while ago. For your and everybody's enjoyment...

Ace of Knaves... (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13445048&postcount=114)

Stretching this a little -- the Democrats haven't done ANYTHING since getting control of both houses of Congress.

And thank goodness for that!

Because Republicans, that got your country to attack another unprovoked and are personally responsible for 4,000 dead soldiers in Iraq, are much better? At least Democrats are not genocidal maniacs!

Young, Male, American, Soldier are all pretty good elements in the description of rape suspects in Okinawa, Myrmi. I'm sure you remember our little debate a while ago.

Ace of Knaves. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13445048&postcount=114)
And I've pointed out your errors... You were a little too eager to declare victory.

Because Republicans, that got your country to attack another unprovoked and are personally responsible for 4,000 dead soldiers in Iraq, are much better? At least Democrats are not genocidal maniacs!
I would like to see one more unprovoked attack come from the Republican administration. We need to level the nuclear weapons facilities in Iran.

And I've pointed out your errors... You were a little too eager to declare victory.

The people who click on that link will be able to read the thread, Myrmi. Shall we let them be the judges of who won that little argument? Mmm? Of course, the fact that afterwards you were so kind in not starting more threads about Muslims for quite a while also goes to show what you thought of the results of that thread. But I digress: You're wrong.

Perhaps, however, I should link to a post further down that thread.

Such as this one. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13445488&postcount=122)

Dealt from the bottom of the deck, there, are we?

I would like to see one more unprovoked attack come from the Republican administration. We need to level the nuclear weapons facilities in Iran.

No, you don't. You need to keep the hell out of other coutries, and stop invading people for no reason in a shoddy, evil and short-sighted attempt at empire-building. You do not have any more right to attack other countries unprovoked than the 9/11 terrorists had to attack yours!

I'm not one to disagree with you, but...

At (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I) least (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II) Democrats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war) are (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson) not (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican-American_War) genocidal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War) maniacs! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_intervention_in_the_Middle_East)

Yes, I know you'll say "They're different"; but the fact is that they haven't changed significantly. Both the Democrat and Republican factions are parties grounded in war and barbarism. Just that Republicanism is essentially fascism doesn't make the Democrats automatically good. Never forget either's crimes.

I'm not one to disagree with you, but...



Yes, I know you'll say "They're different"; but the fact is that they haven't changed significantly. Both the Democrat and Republican factions are parties grounded in war and barbarism. Just that Republicanism is essentially fascism doesn't make the Democrats automatically good. Never forget either's crimes.

I concede that point, and I correct myself: At least Democrats are not CURRENTLY genocidal maniacs...

Well, I don't believe there's an incentive for them currently. Dang Republicans are a bit more closely tied w/ corporate interests.

Not by much, though. :(

<snip>
You Punned him. (Punned is the lowest form of pwnage...jk. :P)

No, you don't. You need to keep the hell out of other coutries, and stop invading people for no reason in a shoddy, evil and short-sighted attempt at empire-building. You do not have any more right to attack other countries unprovoked than the 9/11 terrorists had to attack yours!
QFT. :)

Snip.

*Takes a bow*

I will address this idiot since he stands out amongst the rest of the idiots that responded to me.
Nice flame.


How about...

1993
Jan. 25, Virginia, U.S.A. A Pakistani terrorist opened fire with AK-47 on CIA employees standing outside the building. Two agents, Frank Darling and Bennett Lansing, were killed and 3 others wounded.
Feb. 26 - World Trade Center in New York badly damaged by a massive bomb by Islamic terrorists. The van bomb was planted in an underground garage and left 6 people dead and 1042 injured and almost � billion dollars in damage.

1997
Jan. 2 - Major cities worldwide and U.S. get letter bombs with Egyptian postmarks at newspaper bureaus in DC, New York, London, Riyadh, S.A., and Leavenworth, KN. Experts defused all but the 1 in London, injuring 2.

Feb. 23 - Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State building in New York, killing 1 and wounding over a dozen visitors before turning the gun on himself.

Sept. 11 - 4 U.S. jetliners hijacked and forced to crash into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon like missiles, and 1 crashed in Pennsylvania on the way to the Capital Building in D.C. In all, 266 people perished in the four planes, 2602 people were killed on the ground, plus 343 firefighters, and 184 people at the Pentagon. Almost 5000 injured, 500 rescue workers now have respiratory ailments. 7 buildings collapsed in NY and 23 damaged, plus 4 subway stations.
That's what you have? That's the number of attacks that warrants profiling?

Your list - as you have obviously cut and pasted from some site that doesn't bother to actually look closely at what it's adding to it - is not convincing. Apart from the attacks of 9/11 you have a grand total of 9 fatalities.

Strong enough reason to start profiling?

If you look closely you will see a good many Americans killed. What is happening now is that we finally have the gall to say we are not going to take it anymore.
Bullshit. Either you don't understand what profiling is, or you don't understand that most of these attacks have happened elsewhere - so profiling in the US would have had no effect whatsoever, then and now.

Of course, your ignorance can include both.




Feel free to list out the terrorist acts performed by militia members and compare it to my list of Islamic terrorist acts. The OKC bombing was an anomaly and not supported by good percentage of a major religion.
And?


None of you have presented any source of moderate outrage against terrorism. I know why... there isn't any. My Iranian uncle once told me that the reason moderate Muslims are not heard is because they do not speak. Why? Because they are afraid of their fellow Muslims. That speaks volumes to me.
And that is bullshit.

Say, instead of digging up the threads made on moderate muslims speaking out against terror - why don't you just fucking google it? You couls find stories like this (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/muslim-seminary-issues-fatwa-against-terrorism-838162.html). Or this (http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/040430/muslim.shtml). Or you might even find that radical muslims speak out, like Sayyed Imam Al-Sharif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyed_Imam_Al-Sharif) (See Rationalizations on Jihad in Egypt and the World) - or Sheikh Salman al-Oadah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_al-Ouda), or Dr Usama Hasan (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4087373.ece), or Sheikh Salman b. Fahd al-Oadah (http://www.islamtoday.net/english/showme2.cfm?cat_id=29&sub_cat_id=1521). Not moderates, so I'm not sure you will be happy.

But I ask again: Why do you refuse to listen? Why do the moderates have to repeat themselves for your benefit?



This pathetic argument of Gravlen's is what passes for a "win" on these forums? How very, very sad.
Not really - considering that it's up against a pathetic, ill-informed and ignorant post such as yours.

Eh? I don't think citing that particular incident helps your case, seeing as the "Official" summary (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/wreckless13/2008-A/Other/ZG-CLIPS-A1.jpg) of said events, from which you got your info apparently, is much less likely than this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/wreckless13/2008-A/Other/ZG-CLIPS-A26.jpg) explanation of the larger scope of events on and leading to that day.

BTW, this is fact, not opinion. When you weigh the evidence (And I've done a lot of looking into this incident), there are far more unanswered questions and mysteries involved with the official story, than the explanation I found. In addition, the world makes a wee bit more sense if you take the latter explanation, rather than the former. It's more congruent with US History as a whole.


OW! OW! OW!

did you have to do that? now my whole head hurts from rolling my eyes so hard!

Gravlen,
Teh win, once moar.

:D

OW! OW! OW!

did you have to do that? now my whole head hurts from rolling my eyes so hard!

Elaborate, or find yourself pitting sarcasm without argument against an argument without sarcasm.

I'm willing to discuss/debate this, but let's have some structure to the discussion.

Elaborate, or find yourself pitting sarcasm without argument against an argument without sarcasm.

I'm willing to discuss/debate this, but let's have some structure to the discussion.

noooooooo you can tell me that you were being sarcastic and only posted an idiotic link to how the US govt did the attacks on 9/11 and that if i hadnt just taken a look at the last page i would have understood that. that i would be guilty of.

but nooooo im not going to debate with anyone the all-too-often-debated-and-every-single-time-debunked notion that the US govt planned 9/11. you have to find another fish for that one.

noooooooo you can tell me that you were being sarcastic and only posted an idiotic link to how the US govt did the attacks on 9/11 and that if i hadnt just taken a look at the last page i would have understood that. that i would be guilty of.

but nooooo im not going to debate with anyone the all-too-often-debated-and-every-single-time-debunked notion that the US govt planned 9/11. you have to find another fish for that one.
Link to what you deem a credible/comprehensive debunking source, then.

Link to what you deem a credible/comprehensive debunking source, then.

OW OW OW MY EYES!

i asked you not to do that!

if you are very interested in debating the subject, there are lots of other people here who enjoy shooting fish in a barrel no matter how many times they get the chance.

so start a NEW THREAD. state your best points and be prepared to defend them.

The people who click on that link will be able to read the thread, Myrmi. Shall we let them be the judges of who won that little argument? Mmm? Of course, the fact that afterwards you were so kind in not starting more threads about Muslims for quite a while also goes to show what you thought of the results of that thread. But I digress: You're wrong.

Perhaps, however, I should link to a post further down that thread.

Such as this one. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13445488&postcount=122)

Dealt from the bottom of the deck, there, are we?
Again, there are organizations that support the lunacy that some (few) Muslims request. CAIR is one of them. There are no Marine organizations that I know of that support criminal behavior. Clearly, terrorists get even more support than that. That's the difference and that's why you were wrong then and that's why you are wrong now.

The other difference is motivation. The criminal Marine is motivated by nothing but criminal intentions. There is certainly no training or endorsement by the Marine Corps of criminal activity -- and nothing the Marines teach can be misconstrued to endorse it. The Muslim doctor that refuses to scrub her arms is motivated by the tenets of her faith. As is the cab driver that won't give rides to passengers with dogs, and so on. The terrorists are even worse, but they still believe that they are acting in the name of their religion. That's another reason why you were wrong then and why you are wrong now.

Any conjecture on your part about why I make the posts I do or why I don't post on certain subjects is strictly conjecture on your part...

But this bores me and I would rather turn my efforts toward things that can actually make a difference. So I'll write letters in support of this new tactic of profiling criminal suspects.

Again, there are organizations that support the lunacy that some (few) Muslims request. CAIR is one of them. There are no Marine organizations that I know of that support criminal behavior. Clearly, terrorists get even more support than that. That's the difference and that's why you were wrong then and that's why you are wrong now.

The other difference is motivation. The criminal Marine is motivated by nothing but criminal intentions. There is certainly no training or endorsement by the Marine Corps of criminal activity -- and nothing the Marines teach can be misconstrued to endorse it. The Muslim doctor that refuses to scrub her arms is motivated by the tenets of her faith. As is the cab driver that won't give rides to passengers with dogs, and so on. The terrorists are even worse, but they still believe that they are acting in the name of their religion. That's another reason why you were wrong then and why you are wrong now.

Any conjecture on your part about why I make the posts I do or why I don't post on certain subjects is strictly conjecture on your part...

But this bores me and I would rather turn my efforts toward things that can actually make a difference. So I'll write letters in support of this new tactic of profiling criminal suspects.

1- CAIR doesn't support criminal behavior. And there is no FORMAL support among marines, but they sure cover each others' asses when they need to make a rape accusation go away.

2- The fact remains that the behavior of a few marines doesn't represent the marine ideal just like the behavior of a few Muslims doesn't represent the Muslim faith. Besides, there's plenty in many American ideologies that can justify atrocities, "manifest destiny" for starters.

3- No, you'll write letters in support of making suspects out of people that aren't just because of their religion. I'd mention the first thing that comes to mind, but you'd go "godwin", so I'll mention the second one: The people that would become Americans fled from England to escape religious persecution not too much, in principle if not in intensity, unlike this one. Some great American you are, sport. Way to own up to your country's roots.

1- CAIR doesn't support criminal behavior. And there is no FORMAL support among marines, but they sure cover each others' asses when they need to make a rape accusation go away.

2- The fact remains that the behavior of a few marines doesn't represent the marine ideal just like the behavior of a few Muslims doesn't represent the Muslim faith. Besides, there's plenty in many American ideologies that can justify atrocities, "manifest destiny" for starters.

3- No, you'll write letters in support of making suspects out of people that aren't just because of their religion. I'd mention the first thing that comes to mind, but you'd go "godwin", so I'll mention the second one: The people that would become Americans fled from England to escape religious persecution not too much, in principle if not in intensity, unlike this one. Some great American you are, sport. Way to own up to your country's roots.
I think I see your problem -- you don't pay attention. We're at the same place we were last time and I just barely care enough to make this effort.

1. CAIR certainly supported the efforts of cab drivers to refuse dogs and alcohol in their hacks. Where they stand on terrorism is unclear. They clearly do not want terrorist activity to be associated with Islam. Other groups support the terrorists. It doesn't matter who, but the terrorists couldn't do the things that they do without generous financial support -- ostensibly from other fanatic Muslims, as well as some madrassas and other fanatic imams.

There are no organized groups that support criminal activity by Marines. The Corps may insist on a trial before they convict, but that's hardly support.

2. Those few Marines that commit crimes do not represent the Marine Corps. They know that and we know that. But the Muslim cab drivers, crazy woman doctor, and yes, even terrorists think they are doing their duty for Mohammed.

See, the similarity is that each belong to an identifiable group and that's where you end the analysis. The fact that only the lunatic Muslims receive aid and support from factions within their group is what makes them different makes the whole group responsible for taking action against them.

I think I see your problem -- you don't pay attention. We're at the same place we were last time and I just barely care enough to make this effort.

1. CAIR certainly supported the efforts of cab drivers to refuse dogs and alcohol in their hacks. Where they stand on terrorism is unclear. They clearly do not want terrorist activity to be associated with Islam. Other groups support the terrorists. It doesn't matter who, but the terrorists couldn't do the things that they do without generous financial support -- ostensibly from other fanatic Muslims, as well as some madrassas and other fanatic imams.

There are no organized groups that support criminal activity by Marines. The Corps may insist on a trial before they convict, but that's hardly support.

2. Those few Marines that commit crimes do not represent the Marine Corps. They know that and we know that. But the Muslim cab drivers, crazy woman doctor, and yes, even terrorists think they are doing their duty for Mohammed.

See, the similarity is that each belong to an identifiable group and that's where you end the analysis. The fact that only the lunatic Muslims receive aid and support from factions within their group is what makes them different makes the whole group responsible for taking action against them.

1- Islam, as a religion, doesn't condone this. And since there ARE people that will transfer rape-accused, that will transfer people under a paternity lawsuit, and so on, after they forced their respective penises onto Japanese schoolgirls, one can argue that there are individuals, if not groups, there that support this.

2- That they think they do or they don't is irrelevant. Do you think the Marines would bother transfering someone out or protecting someone that wasn't a marine? No? So some marines protect marine rapists because they're marines, too.

And both are irrelevant, because your rationale for supporting this policy is based on the deeds of a few. You extrapolate from the few into the entire group and see it as a reason for racial/religious profiling. It doesn't matter whether or not they are "supported by organizations" or "think they're doing so in the name of a god", in both cases, profiling Muslims and profiling marines, there would be an assumption that a few people represent the many. So, you have, again, to decide on which you'll support, because, no, the fact that there are organizations of nutjobs within people claiming to be Muslims and that they think they're doing this for a cause does not make for a difference in these assumptions. You're trying to explain away the similarity with two arguments that amount to tossing glitter at someone's face to distract them from a fight, and it will not work.