NationStates Jolt Archive

Well in one of my classes affirmative action came. The presenter argued that while we should switch mostly to income base there was still a need for race or ethnicity based affirmative action. My friend in the class who knows I always check Native American (I am in fact Irish) to get scholarships and the like. got up and argued against it saying people like me make the system unworkable.

Legally all I have ever found in regards to race and ethnicity in Us laws were Census questions.


So if anyone happens to know of any laws that define race please share and cite.

focus on the US, but like to know about other countries.

legally i think it has to be defined by the situation in question. if a scholarship is for native americans only it has to define what it means by that and you have to match that criteria.

to qualify as NA for government reasons there is also a blood quotient requirement. 1/16th or maybe 1/8th. different tribes may have their own definitions.

there was a time when the different states had a legal defintion of "black" (maybe it was "negro" or "african") that varied from 1/32nd to "any black ancestor that can be found no matter how remote" (the "one drop" rule) i dont know if those laws still apply since the situations they covered -- interracial marriage, jim crow laws -- are largely gone by now.

there were probably laws regarding being "chinese" or "japanese" since there was a time when there was official discrimination against asian immigrants. there must have been some official rule governing which japanese americans had to go to camps in ww2.

but as to general ethnicity, i dont think there are laws regarding whether or not you can call yourself "irish". if there are "irish only" or "hispanic only" scholarships or clubs, they have to make the definition themselves.

legally i think it has to be defined by the situation in question. if a scholarship is for native americans only it has to define what it means by that and you have to match that criteria.

to qualify as NA for government reasons there is also a blood quotient requirement. 1/16th or maybe 1/8th. different tribes may have their own definitions.

there was a time when the different states had a legal defintion of "black" (maybe it was "negro" or "african") that varied from 1/32nd to "any black ancestor that can be found no matter how remote" (the "one drop" rule) i dont know if those laws still apply since the situations they covered -- interracial marriage, jim crow laws -- are largely gone by now.

there were probably laws regarding being "chinese" or "japanese" since there was a time when there was official discrimination against asian immigrants. there must have been some official rule governing which japanese americans had to go to camps in ww2.

but as to general ethnicity, i dont think there are laws regarding whether or not you can call yourself "irish". if there are "irish only" or "hispanic only" scholarships or clubs, they have to make the definition themselves.


sweet looks like my being Native American to get more financial aid is working.

Personally, I don't differentiate between race and ethnicity. If I had to define them, I would call 'race' a construct of genetic isolation and 'ethnicity' a construct of cultural isolation.

sweet looks like my being Native American to get more financial aid is working.

only if they dont check you out.

but on the up side, they may not, and if they do they probably wont prosecute you for fraud.

when you go to the scholarship acceptance ceremony you might want to wear a hat or dye your hair black.

Personally, I don't differentiate between race and ethnicity. If I had to define them, I would call 'race' a construct of genetic isolation and 'ethnicity' a construct of cultural isolation.

Check out the big brains on LG...

Check out the big brains on LG...

I like cake. :)

wait so your plan to get government support is to claim to be native American? :p

your better off saying your disabled as that really gives you the cookies

My friend in the class who knows I always check Native American (I am in fact Irish) to get scholarships and the like.

I like how you stated your (and mine) ethnicity rather than your race. Have a cookie.

I wish we would stop always dumping "race", "ethnicity", and "culture" into the same pot, as they aren't necessarily the same thing.

For example, I had a friend who was adopted out of South Korea by a culturally active Swedish-American family. His was of Asiatic race, but spoke some Swedish and belonged to a Scandinavian-American society of some sort. Additionally, he did not actually identify as being Korean, but as Swedish.

I like cake. :)

So shines a good deed in a naughty world.

Greed and Death,

I can give you a definitive, real answer, because I once faced exactly that as a professional issue.

When doing public construction in NYC, there are Affirmitive Action requirements, and you are required to report how many minority employees you have, and what their ethnic status is.

But, and this is important, it is ILLEGAL to ask "what race are you" of a prospective employee.

I asked a state official how to resolve this dilemna: if I cannot legally ask, how do I know?

She said (god help me I am not making this up): Do a visual survey. Those were her exact words!

Do you look black? Kind of? Okay, check off one African American.

So I asked again; (I was younger and more naive, now I know better, never ask government officials deep questions): What about Hispanics? Hispanics may not even have Hispanic sounding names! What about people who are on the borderline? Darkish looking Pakistanis? So many shades of skin, where do I draw the lines?

She said: Although you may not ask them, they are free to volunteer the information. Further, if a person claims a certain ethnic status, no matter what their appearance, I may not dispute this. That would be discrimination.

So, legally, in NYC, you may suggest to an employee that if he or she chooses to volunteer information to the effect that he or she is African American. And if they say yes, I am African American, then it is so, for purposes of Affirmitive Action reporting.

May I ask, out of curiousity, why are you not permitted to ask?

There are plenty of Irish scholarships that you wouldn't have to lie to get.

May I ask, out of curiousity, why are you not permitted to ask?
They might realise they're not white and die of shame, duh.
There are plenty of Irish scholarships that you wouldn't have to lie to get.
Or just easily lie.

"Are you Irish"
"Hurrah for the pope, fuck the Brits, mmm Guinness is tasty"
"aye alright then"

I like cake. :)

Check out the gigantic brains on LG.

They might realise they're not white and die of shame, duh.

Or just easily lie.

"Are you Irish"
"Hurrah for the pope, fuck the Brits, mmm Guinness is tasty"
"aye alright then"

I always wondered why my grandmother muttered that during her daily naps...:p

May I ask, out of curiousity, why are you not permitted to ask?


You are not permitted (here, at least) to ask questions of a "personal" nature when someone is applying for a job. These include things like "are you married?" and "are you Black"?

There are plenty of Irish scholarships that you wouldn't have to lie to get.

Only in the UK, though, right? If not, I'm interested.

May I ask, out of curiousity, why are you not permitted to ask?

because, according to a different law, its none of your freaking business.

You are not permitted (here, at least) to ask questions of a "personal" nature when someone is applying for a job. These include things like "are you married?" and "are you Black"?

As a libertarian, I am appalled.

So shines a good deed in a naughty world.

Merchant of Venice, Act V Scene i... I mean....

<.<

>.>

I like lemon cake. :)

Check out the gigantic brains on LG.

...with chocolate icing.

As a libertarian, I am appalled.

why would you be appalled? is an applicants race, creed, color, national origin, sexual preference, marital or parental status any of your freaking business?

why would you be appalled? is an applicants race, creed, color, national origin, sexual preference, marital or parental status any of your freaking business?

Nope.

Only in the UK, though, right? If not, I'm interested.Nope. I remember my town had three for Catholic, one specifically Irish Catholic, and one other scholarship for Irish but unrelated to religion

Merchant of Venice, Act V Scene i... I mean....

<.<

>.>

I like lemon cake. :)

Get the character name and line numbers, and I'll send you down a slice with chocolate funfetti frosting.

Get the character name and line numbers, and I'll send you down a slice with chocolate funfetti frosting.

I know it was Portia. I'll need Google for the rest...


Edit: Found it...Line 91. :)

Only in the UK, though, right? If not, I'm interested.
Why the hell would we give the Irish scholarships?

You largely only get scholarships on merit alone in UK establishments, adjusted for how poor you are or aren't.

why would you be appalled? is an applicants race, creed, color, national origin, sexual preference, marital or parental status any of your freaking business?

I think that the employer should have the right to ask, and the applicant should have the right to decline a response.

I'd be more than happy to expose to the world that I'm a Caucasian, Christian, White, Native-Born American, straight, single, childless Scotch/Welsh/Irish/etc. guy.

Nope. I remember my town had three for Catholic, one specifically Irish Catholic, and one other scholarship for Irish but unrelated to religion



If only I were still Catholic...

Should I ever acquire the money, I want to leave behind an Irish Unitarian Christian scholarship.

As a libertarian, I am appalled.
Err why?

Because otherwise you might not be able to create your own little Atlas-shrugged style business empire?

"Position : Manager, c. $55k a year

White males without any baggage only, please."

I know it was Portia. I'll need Google for the rest...

*sigh*
Out, out, brief candle! ;)

Fine. Your lemon cake with chocolate non-funfetti frosting is in the mail.

*sigh*
Out, out, brief candle! ;)

Fine. Your lemon cake with chocolate non-funfetti frosting is in the mail.

Yum! I hope there's enough postage. :)

why would you be appalled? is an applicants race, creed, color, national origin, sexual preference, marital or parental status any of your freaking business?

That, Ashmoria, is it exactly. It is not our business. Until a Different branch of government, protecting Different rights, decides it is. Thus we are put in a bizarre paradoxical position: We may not ask, but we must forward the answer, page 2 column D of the Affirmitive Action Minority Employment Form included in annex A of your bid package.

So, hemmed in by this paradox, New York State is forced to accept the only solution: You belong to whatever ethnic category you claim.

Of course, genetically, my own roots go back to East Africa. Along with everybody elses, so to me it's all a crock, anyway.

Err why?

Because otherwise you might not be able to create your own little Atlas-shrugged style business empire?

"Position : Manager, c. $55k a year

White males without any baggage only, please."

I should be able to ask, and they should be able to decline to answer if they wish.

I think that the employer should have the right to ask, and the applicant should have the right to decline a response.
.

The problem there is that the interviewee has no way of knowing if declining to answer would be seen in a negative light. If you are competing with others for a job, you are under pressure to be as positive as you can in an interview. Allowing these questions puts a heavy conflict of interest on the interviewee: do you answer a question you'd rather avoid, or decline, which may affect the interviewer's evaluation of you, perhaps unconsciously? A job interview is not casual conversation, a lot is riding on it.

Yum! I hope there's enough postage. :)Postage?

hmm...I knew I was forgetting something.....

Of course, genetically, my own roots go back to East Africa. Along with everybody elses, so to me it's all a crock, anyway.

Not to mention all of the overlap...there are White and Arab Africans, "Asian" only covers the East Asian countries, "Latino" is more a language group than an ethnicity or race, etc.

I should be able to ask
Why?
and they should be able to decline to answer if they wish.
Uhu. And you'll have no bias against them at all if they decline, right?

That, Ashmoria, is it exactly. It is not our business. Until a Different branch of government, protecting Different rights, decides it is. Thus we are put in a bizarre paradoxical position: We may not ask, but we must forward the answer, page 2 column D of the Affirmitive Action Minority Employment Form included in annex A of your bid package.

So, hemmed in by this paradox, New York State is forced to accept the only solution: You belong to whatever ethnic category you claim.

Of course, genetically, my own roots go back to East Africa. Along with everybody elses, so to me it's all a crock, anyway.

yeah thats a bit of a problem if you have the equal rights people breathing down your neck. i doubt they would accept your explanation that your completely irish looking work force had been mistaken by you to be of a greatly mixed ethnicity. "sean ohara over there is south asian, mike ohanahan tells me he is black, etc" they wouldnt buy it.

Aye. Y'all have a point there. I fold.

But what about ethnic instiutions? For example, if I own an Indian resturaunt, is it reasonable to give preference to ethnic Indians?

I think that the employer should have the right to ask, and the applicant should have the right to decline a response.

I'd be more than happy to expose to the world that I'm a Caucasian, Christian, White, Native-Born American, straight, single, childless Scotch/Welsh/Irish/etc. guy.



it can be a very difficult law to follow. in the formal interview process you get used to not asking those kinds of questions but if you like the person and invite them to lunch with some of the people they might end up working with (for example) its rather natural to ask questions like "are you married" "do you have a family" and even in some areas "what church do you go to". it puts the applicant in a very bad light if she stands on her rights and doesnt answer in a situation like that.

But what about ethnic instiutions? For example, if I own an Indian resturaunt, is it reasonable to give preference to ethnic Indians?
I was unaware restaurants of any kind were ethnic institutions.

Aye. Y'all have a point there. I fold.

But what about ethnic instiutions? For example, if I own an Indian resturaunt, is it reasonable to give preference to ethnic Indians?

If I remember correctly, the only jobs that are tied to affirmative action are those tied to federal, state, or local governments. Beyond that, a business can choose as they wish. I may be wrong about that, but I think that is how it works

If I remember correctly, the only jobs that are tied to affirmative action are those tied to federal, state, or local governments. Beyond that, a business can choose as they wish. I may be wrong about that, but I think that is how it works

no youre not allowed to discriminate based on creed, color, race, ethnicity, nation origins, sex, marital status, or religion. and in some places sexual orientation.

its hard to prove in small businesses since the work force and applicant pool is so small but in a larger business like walmart its quite possible to figure out that they arent hiring or promoting certain groups of people.

no youre not allowed to discriminate based on creed, color, race, ethnicity, nation origins, sex, marital status, or religion. and in some places sexual orientation.

its hard to prove in small businesses since the work force and applicant pool is so small but in a larger business like walmart its quite possible to figure out that they arent hiring or promoting certain groups of people.

ah. Right on.

its hard to prove in small businesses since the work force and applicant pool is so small but in a larger business like walmart its quite possible to figure out that they arent hiring or promoting certain groups of people.

I'm getting an eerie vision... Number One Happy Panda Chinese Take Out being sued because they never hire non-Chinese. And then given a court ordered quota to meet.

I think, laws or no laws, small businesss are given a total pass. The owner gets to hire as whomever he or she wants.

Larger businesses get looked at differently, and its a different story again if you do business with the government.

To receive government funding, I believe you have to be legally affiliated with a certain tribe. To become a member of most tribes you have to prove that you are at least 1/8 Native (I looked it up as a kid because I'm 1/16).

Personal opinion alert!: I think what you're doing is kind of disgusting.

To receive government funding, I believe you have to be legally affiliated with a certain tribe. To become a member of most tribes you have to prove that you are at least 1/8 Native (I looked it up as a kid because I'm 1/16).

Personal opinion alert!: I think what you're doing is kind of disgusting.

TRYING to do.

he wont succeed.

My friend in the class who knows I always check Native American (I am in fact Irish) to get scholarships and the like.

You realize this is called fraud, right?

I'm getting an eerie vision... Number One Happy Panda Chinese Take Out being sued because they never hire non-Chinese. And then given a court ordered quota to meet.

I think, laws or no laws, small businesss are given a total pass. The owner gets to hire as whomever he or she wants.

Larger businesses get looked at differently, and its a different story again if you do business with the government.

many laws have a certain size of workforce requirement before they kick in.

and its always legal to have a hiring preference for your own family members. that covers most ethnic restaurants.

otherwise ive never lived anywhere where there were enough minorities to be able to hire an all-chinese staff for your chinese restaurant if you werent using family members.

only if they dont check you out.

but on the up side, they may not, and if they do they probably wont prosecute you for fraud.

when you go to the scholarship acceptance ceremony you might want to wear a hat or dye your hair black.

interestingly enough when you go there about half of the kids have blond hair and paler skin then me (and i got the traditional Irish pallor) Native American blood is pretty thin these days.

There are plenty of Irish scholarships that you wouldn't have to lie to get.

I get one of those too. no affirmative actions benefits with it though.

I really must look into these Irish scholarships.

TRYING to do.

he wont succeed.

i have been doing this for 3 semesters.


The next source of money I am looking at are African American college funds. though a lot of them require going to a traditionally black college (no thanks).
All the ones that don't require interviews. So what I am planning is to get a picture with a old African American woman keep her in my wallet, suggest that she is my grandma, and say that my grandma largely raised me during the interview. Though this is a little more tricky I should have some of that money locked down too.

From the show Frontline:

To be considered black in the United States not even half of one's ancestry must be African black. But will one-fourth do, or one-eighth, or less? The nation's answer to the question 'Who is black?" has long been that a black is any person with any known African black ancestry. This definition reflects the long experience with slavery and later with Jim Crow segregation. In the South it became known as the "one-drop rule,'' meaning that a single drop of "black blood" makes a person a black. It is also known as the "one black ancestor rule," some courts have called it the "traceable amount rule," and anthropologists call it the "hypo-descent rule," meaning that racially mixed persons are assigned the status of the subordinate group. This definition emerged from the American South to become the nation's definition, generally accepted by whites and blacks. Blacks had no other choice. As we shall see, this American cultural definition of blacks is taken for granted as readily by judges, affirmative action officers, and black protesters as it is by Ku Klux Klansmen.

Now, since we all know that scientists have proven that we are all originally from Africa (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=4325494) we can therefore say that we are ALL "black".

You realize this is called fraud, right?

I am identify with the Native Americans while i fill out the application. so when I check the box I am.

I am identify with the Native Americans while i fill out the application. so when I check the box I am.

yeah, best of luck feeding that line of bullshit.

Hotwife, I've seen other scientific studies that various "races" of mankind evolved independently *rather* than migrating out of Africa.

That Africa theory is just that, *one* theory of many.

Hotwife, I've seen other scientific studies that various "races" of mankind evolved independently *rather* than migrating out of Africa.

That Africa theory is just that, *one* theory of many.

It's the one that I could get the most "experts" to testify on the stand about.

It's the one that's commonly taught in schools. I bet it would fly.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/08/070806-humans-asia.html

This disputes your the traditionalist viewpoint.

yeah thats a bit of a problem if you have the equal rights people breathing down your neck. i doubt they would accept your explanation that your completely irish looking work force had been mistaken by you to be of a greatly mixed ethnicity. "sean ohara over there is south asian, mike ohanahan tells me he is black, etc" they wouldnt buy it.


The distended belly, hairy arse, and capacity to utter complex religous blasphemys while in severe pain tend to give it away.

It's the one that I could get the most "experts" to testify on the stand about.

It's the one that's commonly taught in schools. I bet it would fly.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/08/070806-humans-asia.html

yeah, best of luck feeding that line of bullshit.

three semesters of money. I bought a 47 inch plasma Tv i made so much.

yeah thats a bit of a problem if you have the equal rights people breathing down your neck. i doubt they would accept your explanation that your completely irish looking work force had been mistaken by you to be of a greatly mixed ethnicity. "sean ohara over there is south asian, mike ohanahan tells me he is black, etc" they wouldnt buy it.

just as long as employees say it when they they ask them I doubt there is anything that they can do.

I think when i get a job I will tell my employer I am black for affirmative action purposes.

I am identify with the Native Americans while i fill out the application. so when I check the box I am.
Think they'd buy that in court?

Didn't think so.

Yes, it is a very shitty move, especially considering that you already have scholarships. Why not go for a non-race related one if you are in such need of money.
three semesters of money. I bought a 47 inch plasma Tv i made so much.

Ah. That's why. You don't need the money. You just want shiny things. Shame for that kid who could actually have used the scholarship.



Yep. incredibly, indescribably shitty.

i have been doing this for 3 semesters.


The next source of money I am looking at are African American college funds. though a lot of them require going to a traditionally black college (no thanks).
All the ones that don't require interviews. So what I am planning is to get a picture with a old African American woman keep her in my wallet, suggest that she is my grandma, and say that my grandma largely raised me during the interview. Though this is a little more tricky I should have some of that money locked down too.

and what school is this that gives out scholarships to "native americans"--the only legally defined minority group in the country--without doing so much as taking a look at the person they are gving the money to?

Hotwife, I've seen other scientific studies that various "races" of mankind evolved independently *rather* than migrating out of Africa.

That Africa theory is just that, *one* theory of many.

It is the one theory winning as of now, thanks to genetic studies which match an out-of-Africa scenario.

There's some really interesting stuff on it:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080221-human-genetics.html

http://freewill.typepad.com/genetics/2008/05/out-of-africa.html

Lots and lots of stuff, everywhere.

Hotwife, I've seen other scientific studies that various "races" of mankind evolved independently *rather* than migrating out of Africa.
There are two or three anthropologists who still believe that, or at least pretend to because they've painted themselves into the corner over many years of trying to defend that viewpoint. But it's really quite dead: a beautiful theory, foully slain by ugly facts.

Think they'd buy that in court?

Didn't think so.

Yes, it is a very shitty move, especially considering that you already have scholarships. Why not go for a non-race related one if you are in such need of money.
i got one GPA based one for 400 a semester. The ethnic ones are just so much easier to get. I welcome anyone to declare their ethnicity what ever they need in order to come compete with me though.

Ah. That's why. You don't need the money. You just want shiny things. Shame for that kid who could actually have used the scholarship.



Yep. incredibly, indescribably shitty.

hey if someone is a Black Irish native American mix they too would get all I have gotten. I have the right to compete equally with anyone regardless of race for every single dollar of my education.

I like cake. :)

*hands cake to LG *
well done

because, according to a different law, its none of your freaking business.
But the conundrum goes even farther... There are seven protected categories of people that are protected by federal law. Race and ethnic origin are two of those categories. If you don't know that a person is in a protected category, how do you respond properly to alleged harassment?

i got one GPA based one for 400 a semester. The ethnic ones are just so much easier to get. I welcome anyone to declare their ethnicity what ever they need in order to come compete with me though. Good for you on the GPA based one (not sarcastic there). So why don't you stick to that one (you know, the one you can legally get?)

Oh. Right. That would involve work. Who wants to work for money when you can just cheat the system?!

You don't declare that people can compete with you. You cheat to compete with them.

hey if someone is a Black Irish native American mix they too would get all I have gotten.
But you aren't. Instead, you're taking the money to buy a 47" TV. Ever think that maybe, just maybe, someone actually has a need for that money to afford college? You've made it quite clear that you have plenty to spare.

I have the right to compete equally with anyone regardless of race for every single dollar of my education.

Actually, you don't. That is why these scholarships have the restrictions. You have no "right" to commit fraud. Actually, it is pretty clearly stated that such actions are illegal.

And moreover, a 47" TV does not show that this money is going towards your education.
Get a student loan. Apply for scholarships that you are permitted to.

But the conundrum goes even farther... There are seven protected categories of people that are protected by federal law. Race and ethnic origin are two of those categories. If you don't know that a person is in a protected category, how do you respond properly to alleged harassment?

what a mess eh?

it would be nice if the feds could go through these laws and make them compatible. but that might step on the toes of some powerful lobby or bureaucrat or something so they just pile up new regs that are even less possible to follow.

and what school is this that gives out scholarships to "native americans"--the only legally defined minority group in the country--without doing so much as taking a look at the person they are gving the money to?

a made up one.

Duh.

Yep. incredibly, indescribably shitty.

Shitty perhaps, but that's because it's complete bullshit.

a made up one.

Duh.

so it seems.

so it seems.

for one very obvious reasons.

Scholarship funds almost never go to the student, and almost always directly to the school, to prevent that very thing from happening.

Shitty perhaps, but that's because it's complete bullshit.

I'd assume so as well. However, Sarky has had a long day or two, and as such, might be a little on edge and a little angry.

:)

and what school is this that gives out scholarships to "native americans"--the only legally defined minority group in the country--without doing so much as taking a look at the person they are gving the money to?

As stated before other applicants to native American scholarships have blond hair and blue eyes and our paler then me. Blood has gotten thin and a lot of the tribes have adopted a system by which legal blood content passes down when the holder dies. for instance, lets say my grand father is 1/4 native American and my father is 1/8th and I am 1/16th. my grand father dies by dad is now considered 1/4th and I am considered 1/8th. This is pretty much because the blood is dieing out due to intermarriage and many tribes seek to preserve their culture.

Also the legal definition is for American Indian(that was the preferred term when the laws were written). Native American, is the preferred among universities today allowing me to claim an ethnic status that is not defined by law. technically speaking anyone born with in the Americas is a "native American".

I apply for privately administered scholarships not federal grants.

As stated before other applicants to native American scholarships have blond hair and blue eyes and our paler then me. Blood has gotten thin and a lot of the tribes have adopted a system by which legal blood content passes down when the holder dies. for instance, lets say my grand father is 1/4 native American and my father is 1/8th and I am 1/16th. my grand father dies by dad is now considered 1/4th and I am considered 1/8th. This is pretty much because the blood is dieing out due to intermarriage and many tribes seek to preserve their culture.

Also the legal definition is for American Indian(that was the preferred term when the laws were written). Native American, is the preferred among universities today allowing me to claim an ethnic status that is not defined by law. technically speaking anyone born with in the Americas is a "native American".

I apply for privately administered scholarships not federal grants.


heres your problem

all "native americans" that qualify as native americans are REGISTERED with their various tribes. those that dont have the card ARENT native americans.

there is no personal declaration of native americanhood as their might be of irish americanhood or german americanhood.

there is no "here is a picture of my indian gramma" bullshit involved. either you are registered with a tribe or you are not native american (or not enough to qualify for any program that has native american as a requirement)

Ah. That's why. You don't need the money. You just want shiny things. Shame for that kid who could actually have used the scholarship.Yup, I personally think scholarship fraud is one of the worst kinds of theft you can commit. I honestly wish people committing it would not only have to pay back the money they stole but would also no longer be recognized as having completed any schooling and be required to go back to university if they want the associated benefits of higher education.

I have the right to compete equally with anyone regardless of race for every single dollar of my education.
If you buy a television with this money, you are not using it for education. You're simply a thief and one of the worst kinds, at that, because you're stealing money that could be used to actually provide an education for someone.
Scholarship funds almost never go to the student, and almost always directly to the school, to prevent that very thing from happening.Not necessarily true. There are a number of scholarships, grants, etc. that go directly to the beneficiary because they include not just tuition but also cover the cost of living while at school, as well as text books and the like.

heres your problem

all "native americans" that qualify as native americans are REGISTERED with their various tribes. those that dont have the card ARENT native americans.

Thats for what is termed American Indian benefits. Thats why it is called the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and not the the bureau of Native American Affairs .
Furthermore that is only for benefits process by the Federal and State governments. Tribes and private sources of Scholarship are allowed to make their own determination of who gets benefits. In Texas there are several non recognized tribes that hand out benefits pretty liberally because they want to boost their numbers in order to gain federal recognition.
Even more so they relax the standards here because their are only 2 small reservations in the state and they are god damn far to drive to. in order to talk to the Bureau of Indian Affairs, so they tend to be lax on paper work for privately administered benefits.

there is no personal declaration of native americanhood as their might be of irish americanhood or german americanhood.

there is no "here is a picture of my indian gramma" bullshit involved. either you are registered with a tribe or you are not native american (or not enough to qualify for any program that has native american as a requirement)

Any goverment program your correct however privately administered programs do not fall under that umbrella. I am not stealing your Bureau of Indian Affairs benefits. But seriously look past those as there is a lot of money that goes unclaimed in the privately administered Native American scholarship programs is great. Or at least in Texas where several of the unrecognized tribes had individuals get rich off of oil.

Yup, I personally think scholarship fraud is one of the worst kinds of theft you can commit. I honestly wish people committing it would not only have to pay back the money they stole but would also no longer be recognized as having completed any schooling and be required to go back to university if they want the associated benefits of higher education.


If you buy a television with this money, you are not using it for education. You're simply a thief and one of the worst kinds, at that, because you're stealing money that could be used to actually provide an education for someone.
Not necessarily true. There are a number of scholarships, grants, etc. that go directly to the beneficiary because they include not just tuition but also cover the cost of living while at school, as well as text books and the like.

well there is more too it then that. most of my scholarship money just covers tuition books food rent (off campus), and vehicle cost .
however I also get veteran's benefits.
the veterans benefits would be enough alone to cover rent food and tuition. but since I don't have to pay those I get to spend the money on plasma other things.
and Va benefits don't count against scholarships like other benefits do.

So how are you pretending to be a veteran?

Seriously though I think Affirmative action is nothing more then racism with a politically correct title. It just ends up with meaningless quotas and the whole equal but different argument.

I'd pat you on the back for cheating the system in this case, except: YOU DON'T NEED THE MONEY! Hence you are a horrible person. That being said if anyone here actually needs the money feel free to claim to be half green half black and half Mexican and go for it.

hey if someone is a Black Irish native American mix they too would get all I have gotten. I have the right to compete equally with anyone regardless of race for every single dollar of my education.

You know what's funny, my ex fits this description exactly. He's also Mexican. He also grew up on free breakfast and government peanut butter, and without the scholarships and grants he received (both for minorities, low income and academic achievement) he would never have been able to go to college, get his degree and become a tax-paying member of society. So if you want to act like you're "competing equally" then you go ahead, but I think it's disgusting that you steal money from people who need it because you want a plasma TV. I certainly hope you're gainfully employed and giving more back to the world than this drivel.

So how are you pretending to be a veteran?

Seriously though I think Affirmative action is nothing more then racism with a politically correct title. It just ends up with meaningless quotas and the whole equal but different argument.

I'd pat you on the back for cheating the system in this case, except: YOU DON'T NEED THE MONEY! Hence you are a horrible person. That being said if anyone here actually needs the money feel free to claim to be half green half black and half Mexican and go for it.

I am a veteran so no cheating that.
thankfully, I would be upset if someone could just claim to be a veteran and steal my benefits.

I think my service entitles me to a more comfortable life in college.
the way I see it I would have got all the scholarships to just barely skimp by if I had not joined the service. So, what would have been the point of me joining for college benefits, if it don't benefit me any more then soemone else who didn't give up 6 years of their life.

You know what's funny, my ex fits this description exactly. He's also Mexican. He also grew up on free breakfast and government peanut butter, and without the scholarships and grants he received (both for minorities, low income and academic achievement) he would never have been able to go to college, get his degree and become a tax-paying member of society. So if you want to act like you're "competing equally" then you go ahead, but I think it's disgusting that you steal money from people who need it because you want a plasma TV. I certainly hope you're gainfully employed and giving more back to the world than this drivel.

If he cant compete with me for scholarship money then he can get a federally backed student loan like everyone else.

I am a veteran so no cheating that.
thankfully, I would be upset if someone could just claim to be a veteran and steal my benefits.

I think my service entitles me to a more comfortable life in college.
the way I see it I would have got all the scholarships to just barely skimp by if I had not joined the service. So, what would have been the point of me joining for college benefits, if it don't benefit me any more then soemone else who didn't give up 6 years of their life.

Pardon my language, but are you fucking kidding me?

You don't want people to steal YOUR money by pretending to be vets, even though you're doing the same thing, AND you acknowledge you only enlisted for the benefits... which you're ALREADY receiving, but not satisfied with.

Unbefuckinglievable.

If he cant compete with me for scholarship money then he can get a federally backed student loan like everyone else.

Everyone except you, who is apparently too special for such things.

My ex grew up in POVERTY. He grew up being shot at, he grew up hungry, he grew up in West Oakland in a school system that tried to hide the idea that college was even an OPTION for him. Despite all that, he made it out and he wanted a higher education. He shouldn't have to compete with YOU, he should have to compete with people in similar situations. That's what the fucking scholarship is FOR.

Pardon my language, but are you fucking kidding me?

You don't want people to steal YOUR money by pretending to be vets, even though you're doing the same thing, AND you acknowledge you only enlisted for the benefits... which you're ALREADY receiving, but not satisfied with.

Unbefuckinglievable.
Your not born a veteran.
You actually contribute something more to society to become a veteran.
Being born a particular ethnic group is no guarantee of providing an additional benefit to society. And being born to a particular parent should not entitle you to something that I am not.

ps Don't bitch about me joining the military for the benefits unless your willing to work with out pay.

Everyone except you, who is apparently too special for such things.

My ex grew up in POVERTY. He grew up being shot at, he grew up hungry, he grew up in West Oakland in a school system that tried to hide the idea that college was even an OPTION for him. Despite all that, he made it out and he wanted a higher education. He shouldn't have to compete with YOU, he should have to compete with people in similar situations. That's what the fucking scholarship is FOR.

He went to college with people shooting at him ?
I think not.
The second he is in college he is on a level playing field. I tolerate/refuse to cheat affirmative action in admissions for that reason and the need for diversity on college campuses.
If he cant put the past behind him then he has no business being in college.
And I have yet to understand what about me not being shot at or me being white makes it easier to pay back student loans ????

I am a veteran

No you're not.

I am a veteran so no cheating that.

You were born into the military, right?

You were born into the military, right?

I joined at 18 fresh out of high school. then 9/11 happened sought to finish my time and get out quick as possible after that. Avoided Iraq and Afghanistan though so I am lucky.

I joined at 18 fresh out of high school. then 9/11 happened sought to finish my time and get out quick as possible after that. Avoided Iraq and Afghanistan though so I am lucky.

Oh, you joined the military. I just kind of assumed you had no choice in the matter, thus the comparison between being a veteran and being a member of a certain race.

Oh, you joined the military. I just kind of assumed you had no choice in the matter, thus the comparison between being a veteran and being a member of a certain race.

my stated viewpoint is that people born into a race should not get special benefits while those who made a choice and served their country should.
And I have no qualms about taking advantage of of said ethnic based benefits.

Thats for what is termed American Indian benefits. Thats why it is called the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and not the the bureau of Native American Affairs .
Furthermore that is only for benefits process by the Federal and State governments. Tribes and private sources of Scholarship are allowed to make their own determination of who gets benefits. In Texas there are several non recognized tribes that hand out benefits pretty liberally because they want to boost their numbers in order to gain federal recognition.
Even more so they relax the standards here because their are only 2 small reservations in the state and they are god damn far to drive to. in order to talk to the Bureau of Indian Affairs, so they tend to be lax on paper work for privately administered benefits.


Any goverment program your correct however privately administered programs do not fall under that umbrella. I am not stealing your Bureau of Indian Affairs benefits. But seriously look past those as there is a lot of money that goes unclaimed in the privately administered Native American scholarship programs is great. Or at least in Texas where several of the unrecognized tribes had individuals get rich off of oil.


you must think im stupid

heres your problem with that:

NOW you are supposing that unrecognized tribes would give money to strangers who they know are not members of their tribes.

they know EVERYONE in their tribes. they are small communities. you cant slip by. no one is going to see "seamus connolly" and not know that he isnt a member of the tribe.

AND there is no benefit to them to try to artificially pad the roles. the feds wont ever accept you as a member of the tribe for census purposes. you dont have the blood quotient.

even if they have somehow gotten rich on oil they arent going to be giving scholarships to strangers pretending to be indians.

And I have no qualms about taking advantage of of said ethnic based benefits.

Except for the fact that you are...you know...what's the term....

lying.

my stated viewpoint is that people born into a race should not get special benefits while those who made a choice and served their country should.
And I have no qualms about taking advantage of of said ethnic based benefits.

So if you're born into a life of poverty (eg. Ryadn's friend) you deserve nothing, but if you volunteer to be shot at (sort of) then people should line up to give you money?

Except for the fact that you are...you know...what's the term....

lying.

You know, I KNOW he's lying, and I still can't stop myself from getting pissed off. Argh.

You know, I KNOW he's lying, and I still can't stop myself from getting pissed off. Argh.

and that, my friend, is the goal of the internet troll.

you can never defeat him in a debate because that is not his goal. his only goal is to piss you off. he will say anything he thinks will make you more angry and will continue it long after he is shown to be a psycholiar.

and that, my friend, is the goal of the internet troll.

you can never defeat him in a debate because that is not his goal. his only goal is to piss you off. he will say anything he thinks will make you more angry and will continue it long after he is shown to be a psycholiar.

*whew* Luckily there's a cure for the internet troll--cool rationale and sarcasm. I usually would have tapped into my store of it by now, but it's been an emotional few weeks and sometimes Troll C is the one that breaks the liberal's back. Thank you. :)

Personally, I don't differentiate between race and ethnicity. If I had to define them, I would call 'race' a construct of genetic isolation and 'ethnicity' a construct of cultural isolation.

Score another point for the man with the pie in his eyes.

you must think im stupid

heres your problem with that:

NOW you are supposing that unrecognized tribes would give money to strangers who they know are not members of their tribes.

So you know everyone you asked for Scholarship money from ??? no wonder you have a hard time getting money try expanding your base turn in applications to people you don't know.


they know EVERYONE in their tribes. they are small communities. you cant slip by. no one is going to see "seamus connolly" and not know that he isnt a member of the tribe.

there are over 320,000 Cherokees so they all know each other. Mostly living in Oklahoma to my knowledge as well.

AND there is no benefit to them to try to artificially pad the roles. the feds wont ever accept you as a member of the tribe for census purposes. you dont have the blood quotient.

Blood quotient is for recognized tribes. No one in an unrecognized tribes has a blood quotient unless they get it by being partly descended from another tribe. When a tribe is recognized all members are considered full blooded. Unless you think in 1851 all tribes were 100% filled with full blooded Indians, despite the 300+ years of documented intermixing (and well extermination).
not to mention when I used to live in Tulsa OK I knew several American Indians who were full blooded that by and large had nothing to do with their tribe but still got benefits like health care from the BIT.

even if they have somehow gotten rich on oil they arent going to be giving scholarships to strangers pretending to be indians.

Bill Gates donated over 1 billion dollars to scholarship programs I am guessing that was only for people he knew ???
I don't think you should be speaking about how rich people spend their money unless you are rich.

So you know everyone you asked for Scholarship money from ??? no wonder you have a hard time getting money try expanding your base turn in applications to people you don't know.

*finds hilarious for reasons he will never explain*

So you know everyone you asked for Scholarship money from ??? no wonder you have a hard time getting money try expanding your base turn in applications to people you don't know.

there are over 320,000 Cherokees so they all know each other. Mostly living in Oklahoma to my knowledge as well.

Blood quotient is for recognized tribes. No one in an unrecognized tribes has a blood quotient unless they get it by being partly descended from another tribe. When a tribe is recognized all members are considered full blooded. Unless you think in 1851 all tribes were 100% filled with full blooded Indians, despite the 300+ years of documented intermixing (and well extermination).
not to mention when I used to live in Tulsa OK I knew several American Indians who were full blooded that by and large had nothing to do with their tribe but still got benefits like health care from the BIT.


Bill Gates donated over 1 billion dollars to scholarship programs I am guessing that was only for people he knew ???
I don't think you should be speaking about how rich people spend their money unless you are rich.

you really think im stupid.

you cant change your story and have me not remember what you said before.

hey if someone is a Black Irish native American mix they too would get all I have gotten.

Treated like shit, blind drunk, stuck on a reservation with a rotten spud and a few mad literary types for company?

Treated like shit, blind drunk, stuck on a reservation with a rotten spud and a few mad literary types for company?

Made of win.

Treated like shit, blind drunk, stuck on a reservation with a rotten spud and a few mad literary types for company?

you win the thread.

you win the thread.


Ty.

This thread reminds me of this recent article in the Herald Sun newspaper:


"Catholic Church to fight equal rights for gays
by: John Masanauskas

July 02, 2008 12:00am
RELIGIOUS groups such as the Catholic Church could be forced to employ openly gay and pro-abortion workers under a review of Victoria's equal opportunity laws.

The Brumby Government is considering dropping exemptions allowing religious groups to discriminate against people whose views and practices they find unacceptable.

The Catholic Church is concerned such a move could jeopardise its education, health, welfare and aged care services.

Melbourne archdiocese business manager Francis Moore said yesterday the church should not have to employ people who, for instance, were for abortion or euthanasia, or who had sexual relations outside of traditional marriage.

"If the church was put into a position where it was required to employ people who had beliefs or practices which were inconsistent with the church's view, then it would make it very difficult to continue to provide those services," he said.

"For that reason, we want those exceptions maintained."

The Catholic Church is among dozens of organisations and individuals who have made submissions to two reviews of equal opportunity laws ordered by Attorney-General Rob Hulls.

Some gay rights groups have called for the exemptions to be dumped, citing special concern about the employment of gay and lesbian teachers in religious schools.

"This exception is not appropriate, particularly given the fact that religious schools are involved in delivering a public service (education) using public funds," said the Ministerial Advisory Committee on Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender and Intersex Health and Wellbeing.

The reviews may also lead to the Victorian Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission getting more power to investigate and act against discrimination.

It's proposed the discrimination watchdog gets the right to launch cases in the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal.

Recommendations from the reviews are due to go to Mr Hulls this month."

from: http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23955134-2862,00.html

Sounds suspiciously like if a "pro-life" clinic not wanting to hire a company owned by a notorious abortion supporter, or an african-american business owner discriminating against one of his employees due to that employee being a member of the KKK...

The knife cuts both ways on this...

I'd love to hear peoples thoughts about this.

then start a thread about it