NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I do have a legal question that some of the posters might be able to answer better than I can, so I'll start with that.

Months ago (prior to Super Tuesday), my husband and I put a political sign in our front yard. I don't know if the time frame matters, so I'm including it for completeness. Ours is not the only political sign in the neighborhood, but it may have been the first to go up.

Yesterday, we received a letter from our Homeowner's Association ordering us to remove the sign - that it is against HA regulations. Apparently, all signs are. :rolleyes:

Now, it is my understanding that, because of the special protection applied to political speech, they cannot prohibit such signs on private property. I'm fairly certain I've seen cases in the news that would provide legal precedence for such a claim, but I'm not entirely certain.

Ok, now that the question of legality is out of the way (and hopefully will be answered), should an HA be able to control your use of your own private property to the point that they prohibit political signs? To what extent (if any) should an HA be able to control your use of your property and why? Should such contracts be voluntary (ie. you get some sort of benefit from being a member and thus choose to join) or should your neighbors be able to force you into them?

Any other questions and discussion pertaining to homeowner's associations is welcome.

Home Owners Associations are works of the devil. And it's my understanding that they exist solely to tell you what you can and cannot do with your private property, under the auspices of protecting the value of your property. (the theory goes that if I keep a car on blocks surrounded by weeds in my front yard with an old weathered couch, I have now affected the value of your home.)

From such a basic cause they are instead the bastion of busy-bodies and the anal retentive who wish that their neighborhoods were crafted out of porcelin that they can find at touristy craft stores. Giant pain in the ass.

They've also made my mom and a member of the Swingle Sisters cry. Long story, that's really the only interesting part. (I may have the family based singing group wrong)

Depends what you signed/agreed/etc when you moved in, also the size of the sign.

In general, if you voluntarily agree not to put a sign up then you can't. Otherwise they can go to hell.

Depends what you signed/agreed/etc when you moved in, also the size of the sign.

In general, if you voluntarily agree not to put a sign up then you can't. Otherwise they can go to hell.
I'm sorry, Satan's homeowners association has decided that members of homeowners associations lower the property value of Hell. Therefore, he cannot allow them in. Perhaps they'd prefer Hades, or Tartar?

It like when the police told me I could not perform genetic experiments on the neighbor's children. Of course, I ended up only helping them by increasing their mental capacity by two fold, giving them a photographic memory, making them immune to AIDS, orange skin, purple hair, turning them into followers of Sheogorath, doubling their life span, and giving them Jim's style of humor. So I do not see the harm in that, can you?

Depends what you signed/agreed/etc when you moved in, also the size of the sign.

In general, if you voluntarily agree not to put a sign up then you can't. Otherwise they can go to hell.

"Voluntarily" is a bit of a tricky word, though. It's like saying you "voluntarily" agree to all laws because you happen to live in a given country, state, etc.

With most HA's, the option is "sign or don't have a house." And it isn't as if you get a choice on what portions do and do not apply. This isn't true in all of them, of course. My mother used to live in a neighborhood where HA membership was voluntary - and there were actual tangible benefits to joining. But that set-up does not seem to be the norm.

That said, there are some rights you legally cannot sign away and I believe there have been court rulings to the effect that political speech is protected above HA regulations.

(note I like this question enough to post through my blackberry and I hate doing that...so you owe me).

What state do you live in dem?

"Voluntarily" is a bit of a tricky word, though. It's like saying you "voluntarily" agree to all laws because you happen to live in a given country, state, etc.

With most HA's, the option is "sign or don't have a house." And it isn't as if you get a choice on what portions do and do not apply. This isn't true in all of them, of course. My mother used to live in a neighborhood where HA membership was voluntary - and there were actual tangible benefits to joining. But that set-up does not seem to be the norm.

That said, there are some rights you legally cannot sign away and I believe there have been court rulings to the effect that political speech is protected above HA regulations.

But your political speech isn't being banned. The signs are. They're not stifling your message, just your medium.

"Voluntarily" is a bit of a tricky word, though. It's like saying you "voluntarily" agree to all laws because you happen to live in a given country, state, etc.

With most HA's, the option is "sign or don't have a house." And it isn't as if you get a choice on what portions do and do not apply. This isn't true in all of them, of course. My mother used to live in a neighborhood where HA membership was voluntary - and there were actual tangible benefits to joining. But that set-up does not seem to be the norm.

That said, there are some rights you legally cannot sign away and I believe there have been court rulings to the effect that political speech is protected above HA regulations.

You need to get a copy (if you can't find yours!) of the HA rules, and read them througoughly and find out if signs are prohibited and under what conditions. You may need to get written permission for a sign of a certain size or something. I'm not sure about "special protection" of political speech being anything to do with HA's.

If you don't find anything in the bylaws/rules/regulations about signs, go chat up your least annoying board member and find out if they can intervene on your behalf. Go to the next board meeting, throw up a stink, and bring a list of every other house with a sign, demand they be notified of the "rule" as well, bonus points if you can find violations the board members have on their property (funky colored curtains, indoor couches on the porch.....etc.)

the theory goes that if I keep a car on blocks surrounded by weeds in my front yard with an old weathered couch, I have now affected the value of your home

Which it does. But not being from the land of Americans can someone explain to me what the HA is, does, why they are around and who is in it.

Who the fuck would even join a homeowner's association?

(note I like this question enough to post through my blackberry and I hate doing that...so you owe me).

What state do you live in dem?

(Thanks! <3)

Georgia.

Yeah, im Anti-HA

No one should be able to damn well tell me what i can and cant do on my own damn property...

Id tell 'Em to Fuck Off...

Who the fuck would even join a homeowner's association?

Because you have to in order to get the house. Don't confuse it with a Neighborhood Association. Those are voluntary.

Which it does. But not being from the land of Americans can someone explain to me what the HA is, does, why they are around and who is in it.

My homeowner's association takes care of the common elements like the pool, garden, courtyards, club house, parking areas and all the exterior walls, hallways, stairways, roof, etc. of our co-op. They also plan social events for the residents, and try to keep people from doing stupid shit.....for example some of the things against the CCR (the rules) are having non-nuetral window treatments, parking broken cars in the parking area, having loud music, grilling on the balcony (close to the building) and letting your dog shit on the property without picking up his poo.

There are HOA fees each month to cover landscaping, repairs, and upkeep of the common grounds, and if you break rules you get fined. We had to for example get written permission from the board to keep 2 cats because the CCR's only provide for one pet. We got an exception because we have more than one cat. If we didn't go through the proper channels the HOA could have fined us $40 a month until the other cat was gone. If you don't pay your monthly fees for 3 months or end up oweing the HOA more than $1000 they will put a lien on your house, if you screw up further (I think it's like $5K or more) they can foreclose on you, although they have to go through civil court to do so, in some states they don't have to do that.

Because you have to in order to get the house. Don't confuse it with a Neighborhood Association. Those are voluntary.

Not true. That'd have to be in the deed somewhere and deeds can be changed.

Because you have to in order to get the house. Don't confuse it with a Neighborhood Association. Those are voluntary.

Which is bullshit...I think this would be a good time to challenge them in court...

Get on the news get public opinion, i dont think you could lose, most First Amendment violations are not all that popular...

Who the fuck would even join a homeowner's association?

It's required to live in my co-op. The neighborhoods/co-ops we looked at without HOA's were run down and ghetto. If you want to keep your property value up and keep things from being redneck and rat infested moving to an HOA community is a good way to do that. The trick is getting on the board.

I am running next election. :p

Which it does. But not being from the land of Americans can someone explain to me what the HA is, does, why they are around and who is in it.

Most of what a HA does is enforce its covenants, codes and regulations (CC&Rs) and discuss the budget. It's a committee elected from among homeowners in a given area (usu. the gated white communities up the hill from you) that meets regularly and addresses complaints about fee increases, teenagers, and the temperature of the swimming pool. Occasionally you'll have one neighbor ratting out another for having a lawn sign (which seems to be the case here) or parking his/her car on the street rather than in their garage. In extreme cases, the HA will respond to repeated complaints by hiring a rent-a-cop to patrol the premises for code violations and trespassing thugs from "down-the-hill" who brazenly hop the gate to use the jacuzzi after sunset.

Edit: aw, where'd he go? :( Anyway, some friends and I used to be frequent topics of discussion at a couple HAs in my local area, in my youth. :)

You need to get a copy (if you can't find yours!) of the HA rules, and read them througoughly and find out if signs are prohibited and under what conditions. You may need to get written permission for a sign of a certain size or something. I'm not sure about "special protection" of political speech being anything to do with HA's.

Political speech has protection above and beyond other forms of speech. I can remember hearing of cases where people were able to violate their HA regulations as long as it was for the purpose of political speech because the right to such speech is considered sacrosanct - something you cannot sign away.

I haven't gone back through the bylaws to figure out exactly what the rules on this are, but I know there's some pretty stupid stuff in there, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they just outright prohibited all signs.

I like owning a house, but I hate dealing with the busybodies.


Which it does. But not being from the land of Americans can someone explain to me what the HA is, does, why they are around and who is in it.

HA = Homeowner's Association. The basic idea behind them is that doing certain things (ie. never mowing your lawn, trash in the front lawn, etc.) will drop property values around you. So all the people who own property in a neighborhood get together and put together restrictions on such things.

In practice, they're generally a bunch of busybodies with nothing better to do than worry about what color you paint your house, what color blinds you have in your windows, and whether or not you use pine straw or mulch in your flower beds.

Who the fuck would even join a homeowner's association?

Someone who wanted to own a home? It was pretty much, "join or don't own a home." So we joined.

Not true. That'd have to be in the deed somewhere and deeds can be changed.

Considering that Neighborhood/Voluntary Associations are defined separately, I'd have to assume that they aren't voluntary, now wouldn't I? Anyway, you could always Wiki it.

(Thanks! <3)

Georgia.

OK, Georgia law. In Loren v. Sasser the 11th circuit court of appeals (which includes Georgia) declined to apply the standard in Shelly v. Kraemer outside of racially restrictive covenants, finding that the first amendment provided no protection.

Additionally, in Committee for a Better Twin Rivers v. Twin Rivers Homeowners' Assoc, the New Jersey Supreme Court found that a HOA is not a state actor, and thus there is no state action and no constitutional protection, even under the more protective NJ state constitution

According to my wife, we're part of a homeowner's association. Oddly enough, they never seem to bother us.


...

She just showed me a letter they had written where they request I wear decent attire in the front yard. It dates from shortly before we planted the hedges. I always suspected she had complaints from the neighbors. :p

Not true. That'd have to be in the deed somewhere and deeds can be changed.

No, they can't. restrictive covenants run with the land, and really can't be changed.

No, they can't. restrictive covenants run with the land, and really can't be changed.

*bleah*

*snip*

Do you live in a condo/townhouse or a detached home? Is it a gated community?

When I was a kid we lived in a neighborhood of tract housing in the 'burbs that had an HA. They regulated such things as outdoor paint colors, stories (one only), fences (none, even picket, an ongoing battle between the association and a neighborhood with a lovely white picket threaded with roses), etc. However, I remember quite distinctly that there were always political signs up on lawns and in hedges.

It certainly seems like banning politic signs is an infringement on an important freedom, and a needless one. A better approach might be to agree on the presentation of such signs--upper size limits, placement, etc.

It certainly seems like banning politic signs is an infringement on an important freedom, and a needless one. A better approach might be to agree on the presentation of such signs--upper size limits, placement, etc.

Which would be an Infringement on an Important Freedom...

How large you want your size to be and where you put it is your own business, why should anyone else get to tell you different?

Which would be an Infringement on an Important Freedom...

How large you want your size to be and where you put it is your own business, why should anyone else get to tell you different?

Because it's the job of the HOA to tell you what to do with your property. duh. :rolleyes:

I personally, think political signs are tacky and useless and they are littering the city and they are ugly. I am glad we don't have them in our neighborhood.

Because it's the job of the HOA to tell you what to do with your property. duh. :rolleyes:



lol, thats what im saying i hate, its bullshit

This is who i send to my neighbors if they dont like what i do at my house :upyours:

My parents have never been bothered by their neighborhood's homeowners association, but they are on the end of a road (not even a cul-de-sac), which juts up against a small farm, so no one really goes up to their end.

But, having looked over the code, they've violated half of the rules in the book. And one night, I aided in breaking a total of thirteen rules.

Napalm, beer, parking on streets, streetlight, vomiting in the road, loud swearing, fireworks, open bonfire, driving in the grass, near nudity (that one wasn't me. I am too merciful), yard sculptures (inflatable spongebob squarepants stolen from burger king), excessive number of people on property, trailer in driveway.

According to my wife, we're part of a homeowner's association. Oddly enough, they never seem to bother us.

Not surprising, I don't recall they ever bothered us much either. Did think it sucked that you had to PAY to use the pool that was part of the Home Owner's Association. And that you couldn't add a second story.

Then again, the place we're selling now is in a much more affluent neighborhood, no HOA, and for the past 5-6 years people have been buying homes, tearing them down and replacing them with godawful McMansions that take up 95% of the lot and span three stories, so. HOAs aren't all bad.

lol, thats what im saying i hate, its bullshit

This is who i send to my neighbors if they dont like what i do at my house :upyours:

I guess coming from a neighborhood situation where people did stupid shit, I kinda dig my HOA right now. Although I haven't seen them enforce much other than 'no, you can't keep a dog on your patio 24/hours a day tied to a post' and 'no, you can't have sex in the pool' and 'no, we don't want you to have a banner on your balcony that says 'fuck Obama', thank you please remove it'

Seems kinda nice. In my old neighborhood if people were building potato guns and shooting them at my dog, all I could really do was call the cops, who said "that's not nice" and left. At least now people have to pay for stupidity.

It's my authoritarian streak, I know, it disturbs me too.

I guess coming from a neighborhood situation where people did stupid shit, I kinda dig my HOA right now. Although I haven't seen them enforce much other than 'no, you can't keep a dog on your patio 24/hours a day tied to a post' and 'no, you can't have sex in the pool' and 'no, we don't want you to have a banner on your balcony that says 'fuck Obama', thank you please remove it'

Seems kinda nice. In my old neighborhood if people were building potato guns and shooting them at my dog, all I could really do was call the cops, who said "that's not nice" and left. At least now people have to pay for stupidity.

It's my authoritarian streak, I know, it disturbs me too.

My problem is i have the Urge to do all those things, and want the right to do so right now! lol...but seriously, i do, lol...

And id shoot the potato gun douche back with Frozen Paintballs, he'd seriously regret it, i have a 98 Custom with the Velocity all the way up...

Napalm, beer, parking on streets, streetlight, vomiting in the road, loud swearing, fireworks, open bonfire, driving in the grass, near nudity (that one wasn't me. I am too merciful), yard sculptures (inflatable spongebob squarepants stolen from burger king), excessive number of people on property, trailer in driveway.

That's the stuff! :p Though if you ever really want to stir up the hornets' nest, there's nothing more effective than a pool use infraction. Maybe it's a California thing, but all hell would break loose when I'd sneak into the pools in the upscale neighborhoods. If you live in one such yourself, inviting an ethnic-minority friend might be as effective. :)

lol, thats what im saying i hate, its bullshit

This is who i send to my neighbors if they dont like what i do at my house :upyours:

Where do you find tiny red men with extending fingers?

Where do you find tiny red men with extending fingers?

On teh Interwebs, Duh, Gawd Fricken Idiot!

Most of what a HA does is enforce its covenants, codes and regulations (CC&Rs) and discuss the budget. It's a committee elected from among homeowners in a given area (usu. the gated white communities up the hill from you) that meets regularly and addresses complaints about fee increases, teenagers, and the temperature of the swimming pool. Occasionally you'll have one neighbor ratting out another for having a lawn sign (which seems to be the case here) or parking his/her car on the street rather than in their garage. In extreme cases, the HA will respond to repeated complaints by hiring a rent-a-cop to patrol the premises for code violations and trespassing thugs from "down-the-hill" who brazenly hop the gate to use the jacuzzi after sunset.

Edit: aw, where'd he go? :( Anyway, some friends and I used to be frequent topics of discussion at a couple HAs in my local area, in my youth. :)

So is it sort of like a local council but with more power?

My homeowner's association takes care of the common elements like the pool, garden, courtyards, club house, parking areas and all the exterior walls, hallways, stairways, roof, etc. of our co-op. They also plan social events for the residents, and try to keep people from doing stupid shit.....for example some of the things against the CCR (the rules) are having non-nuetral window treatments, parking broken cars in the parking area, having loud music, grilling on the balcony (close to the building) and letting your dog shit on the property without picking up his poo.

There are HOA fees each month to cover landscaping, repairs, and upkeep of the common grounds, and if you break rules you get fined. We had to for example get written permission from the board to keep 2 cats because the CCR's only provide for one pet. We got an exception because we have more than one cat. If we didn't go through the proper channels the HOA could have fined us $40 a month until the other cat was gone. If you don't pay your monthly fees for 3 months or end up oweing the HOA more than $1000 they will put a lien on your house, if you screw up further (I think it's like $5K or more) they can foreclose on you, although they have to go through civil court to do so, in some states they don't have to do that.

When you say co-op and from what you describe and I will try to understand, mu aunt used to live in a 4 bedroom flat that was connected to a large amount of other similar flats in the middle had a pool, spa and a small gym as well as having undercover security parking which was included as part of the rent, is this what you mean?

HA = Homeowner's Association. The basic idea behind them is that doing certain things (ie. never mowing your lawn, trash in the front lawn, etc.) will drop property values around you. So all the people who own property in a neighborhood get together and put together restrictions on such things.

In practice, they're generally a bunch of busybodies with nothing better to do than worry about what color you paint your house, what color blinds you have in your windows, and whether or not you use pine straw or mulch in your flower beds.

Ahh the busybodies nothing please me more than putting them in their place. How are they allowed to tell you what curtains you are allowed to put up in your house

Someone who wanted to own a home? It was pretty much, "join or don't own a home." So we joined.

Do they own the homes? How are they allowed to do this? Is it like I was saying abuch of flats and when I say this I don't mean sau 15 in a single buolding this bunch of flats I was think of had covered an entire block and had nearly 100 individual apartments.

Why wouldn't an owner be allowed to sell his property to whomever he likes?

Sorry about all the questions but as this is a new concept to me I want to gather as much facts as possible before forming an opinion on it.

[QUOTE=Dempublicents1;13802753]
HA = Homeowner's Association. The basic idea behind them is that doing certain things (ie. never mowing your lawn, trash in the front lawn, etc.) will drop property values around you. So all the people who own property in a neighborhood get together and put together restrictions on such things.
[\QUOTE]

Really i think it would be better if they simply werent allowed to factor in your neighbors into Property Values, that way noone's rights get trampled, and everyone gets to have nice large property values...

everyone wins...

I guess coming from a neighborhood situation where people did stupid shit, I kinda dig my HOA right now. Although I haven't seen them enforce much other than 'no, you can't keep a dog on your patio 24/hours a day tied to a post' and 'no, you can't have sex in the pool' and 'no, we don't want you to have a banner on your balcony that says 'fuck Obama', thank you please remove it'

Seems kinda nice. In my old neighborhood if people were building potato guns and shooting them at my dog, all I could really do was call the cops, who said "that's not nice" and left. At least now people have to pay for stupidity.

It's my authoritarian streak, I know, it disturbs me too.

I can see the benfits of a HOA up to point I can also see that power can and will be corrupted by certain elements of the board and may impose regulations such as a car must always have the look of just being polished and if not must be left in the garage or only letter boxes that are aproved by the board can be installed

Really i think it would be better if they simply werent allowed to factor in your neighbors into Property Values, that way noone's rights get trampled, and everyone gets to have nice large property values...

everyone wins...

The thing about this is and I can see to an extent why is that when people buy a house to live they don't just look at the house they look at the neighbourhood, there is less demand for a house that has a neighbour hood which has beer cans in every front yard then one where the lawns and gardens are pristine.

The thing about this is and I can see to an extent why is that when people buy a house to live they don't just look at the house they look at the neighbourhood, there is less demand for a house that has a neighbour hood which has beer cans in every front yard then one where the lawns and gardens are pristine.

Yeah, i didnt say it was feasible, just that it would be better, lol...

So is it sort of like a local council but with more power?

I'm not really familiar with how local councils in other countries work, beyond what I've seen in Hot Fuzz (if you're posting from England - :p), so I can't compare directly. Still, a homeowner's association's powers aren't too intimidating, beyond their ability to raise your monthly dues repeatedly and veto your building projects. Dues were $220 per month back in '96 where a friend of mine lived; in my experience, the primary goal of a HA is to keep downscale outsiders out, whether by pricing them out via fee hikes or going the rent-a-cop route or limiting the number of visitors a member may invite in. I've never lived in a HA housing tract before, but I've gotten a good deal of hilarious threats and hostility directed toward me on behalf of various HAs in my younger days. Although, to be fair, these came from HAs in Orange Country (California), which I would guess to be among the most exclusive/fascistic nationwide. :)

Yeah, i didnt say it was feasible, just that it would be better, lol...

True true.

When you say co-op and from what you describe and I will try to understand, mu aunt used to live in a 4 bedroom flat that was connected to a large amount of other similar flats in the middle had a pool, spa and a small gym as well as having undercover security parking which was included as part of the rent, is this what you mean?
It's a large building with what most people would call apartments, we own our area, or rather a percentage of the total building. Anything inside our walls is our stuff, anything outside belongs cooperatively to the HOA, which we belong to. I can do anything inside my condo that I want*, but outside there are limitations.

*provided it doesn't break any laws/city codes

Ahh the busybodies nothing please me more than putting them in their place. How are they allowed to tell you what curtains you are allowed to put up in your house
HOA's are concerned with the appearance of the neighborhood. I can put up whatever curtains I want, but what appears outside has to be white, off white or another similar neutral color, I just put up blinds and then put up my funky curtains inside, where you can't see them outside. Anything that is in the CCR (big book of rules) is in their control, you should read it before you buy. Sometimes you can get exceptions from the board if you need to, but you have to ask first, not do first or you'll get in trouble.


Do they own the homes? How are they allowed to do this? Is it like I was saying abuch of flats and when I say this I don't mean sau 15 in a single buolding this bunch of flats I was think of had covered an entire block and had nearly 100 individual apartments.
They own the neighborhood as a non-profit corporation. You own your house and the land, but when you signed the deed you signed on to follow the HOA rules.



I can see the benfits of a HOA up to point I can also see that power can and will be corrupted by certain elements of the board and may impose regulations such as a car must always have the look of just being polished and if not must be left in the garage or only letter boxes that are aproved by the board can be installed

That's always a risk. If there are enough people pissed though you can overturn the board and get new board members. You can even sue the board for fucking around too much. In AZ our HOA had a rule about how old your car could be........it was bullshit. The one I'm in now isn't that persnickity, but I guess I don't want to break the rules..... so the rules don't affect me much.

I'm not really familiar with how local councils in other countries work, beyond what I've seen in Hot Fuzz (if you're posting from England - :p), so I can't compare directly. Still, a homeowner's association's powers aren't too intimidating, beyond their ability to raise your monthly dues repeatedly and veto your building projects. Dues were $220 per month back in '96 where a friend of mine lived; in my experience, the primary goal of a HA is to keep downscale outsiders out, whether by pricing them out via fee hikes or going the rent-a-cop route or limiting the number of visitors a member may invite in. I've never lived in a HA housing tract before, but I've gotten a good deal of hilarious threats and hostility directed toward me on behalf of various HAs in my younger days. Although, to be fair, these came from HAs in Orange Country (California), which I would guess to be among the most exclusive/fascistic nationwide. :)

Australia. A local council is voted in by the poulation of a town or city larger cities will have seperate coucil areas. Basically the coucil is in charge of collecting rubbish cleaning the streets maintaing local roads, footpaths and parks amongst other things. They charge rates pretty much a tax to fund these things and their own 'research trips' which always seems to take them to exotic locations. In order to build something you need council approval this is usually a formality unless someone comes in and complains then it is taken to a vote. People can also lodge the council to change their surrondings if they are un happy or to take down dangerous trees or similar, people can submit claims to intervene with what the council decides. I remeber one time my dad wanted to cut down a tree in our back yard someone complained about it and went to the council to get him to stop, it is a shame for them that the law was on our side and the council couldn't do a thing as it was on private property.

So as I said it seems like a HOA is similar to a council which in Australia is a level of government but the HOA has more power.

Australia. A local council is voted in by the poulation of a town or city larger cities will have seperate coucil areas. Basically the coucil is in charge of collecting rubbish cleaning the streets maintaing local roads, footpaths and parks amongst other things. They charge rates pretty much a tax to fund these things and their own 'research trips' which always seems to take them to exotic locations. In order to build something you need council approval this is usually a formality unless someone comes in and complains then it is taken to a vote. People can also lodge the council to change their surrondings if they are un happy or to take down dangerous trees or similar, people can submit claims to intervene with what the council decides. I remeber one time my dad wanted to cut down a tree in our back yard someone complained about it and went to the council to get him to stop, it is a shame for them that the law was on our side and the council couldn't do a thing as it was on private property.

So as I said it seems like a HOA is similar to a council which in Australia is a level of government but the HOA has more power.

We have a city council in charge of those types of things, and the HOA is similar, only it's your neighbors and they govern (for lack of a better word) your neighborhood. Our city council can fine you and put a lien on your house and foreclose on you too if you owe them too much. It's not that they have more power, just it's more concentrated. The city has rules about how much crap you can have in your yard, but unless someone reports you they hardly ever enforce anything, in an HOA there's always someone willing to report you to the board.

I reported someone today because they had a refrigerator sitting in the breezeway and I was unable to get to my mailbox. I tried to contact them first of course, but they were bitchy and refused, so my board member friend went and explained to them that they needed to move it.........NOW.

It's a large building with what most people would call apartments, we own our area, or rather a percentage of the total building. Anything inside our walls is our stuff, anything outside belongs cooperatively to the HOA, which we belong to. I can do anything inside my condo that I want*, but outside there are limitations.

*provided it doesn't break any laws/city codes

So in your case it is what I was thinking but others may not be that exactly.

HOA's are concerned with the appearance of the neighborhood. I can put up whatever curtains I want, but what appears outside has to be white, off white or another similar neutral color, I just put up blinds and then put up my funky curtains inside, where you can't see them outside. Anything that is in the CCR (big book of rules) is in their control, you should read it before you buy. Sometimes you can get exceptions from the board if you need to, but you have to ask first, not do first or you'll get in trouble.

So the city dosen't own the land?

[QUOTE=Smunkeeville;13802926]They own the neighborhood as a non-profit corporation. You own your house and the land, but when you signed the deed you signed on to follow the HOA rules.

So the city dosen't own the land? I understand what that is and if I ever did that I would go through proper channels in an attempt to change anything at the moment I do not like the idea as a whole, I do see some benefits to it such as getting everything to chip in to pay for pool upkeep.


That's always a risk. If there are enough people pissed though you can overturn the board and get new board members. You can even sue the board for fucking around too much. In AZ our HOA had a rule about how old your car could be........it was bullshit. The one I'm in now isn't that persnickity, but I guess I don't want to break the rules..... so the rules don't affect me much.

Yes and from previous experience in similar situations you need a lot of people you sometimes find nepotism coming into these sort of areas. As for the age of the car that would be one I would relish in perhaps that HOA would buy the owner a new car?

That's the stuff! :p Though if you ever really want to stir up the hornets' nest, there's nothing more effective than a pool use infraction. Maybe it's a California thing, but all hell would break loose when I'd sneak into the pools in the upscale neighborhoods. If you live in one such yourself, inviting an ethnic-minority friend might be as effective. :)

Dude, fuckin' word.

We have a city council in charge of those types of things, and the HOA is similar, only it's your neighbors and they govern (for lack of a better word) your neighborhood. Our city council can fine you and put a lien on your house and foreclose on you too if you owe them too much. It's not that they have more power, just it's more concentrated. The city has rules about how much crap you can have in your yard, but unless someone reports you they hardly ever enforce anything, in an HOA there's always someone willing to report you to the board.

I reported someone today because they had a refrigerator sitting in the breezeway and I was unable to get to my mailbox. I tried to contact them first of course, but they were bitchy and refused, so my board member friend went and explained to them that they needed to move it.........NOW.

Well in that case I can see why a HOA would be of some benefit but I am sure there are just as many regulations that are petty, stupid and really have only be placed in there by somebody who didn't like the colour green for example. As I have had to deal with people like this before and been on their bad side (not that I mind) because they had some stupid reason something like how I was to young or something they would impose stupid restrictions me being the rebel (and maybe petty myself) that I am would fight these restrictions and this person tooth and nail. But as I say I do see some benefits to having an HOA and I see more benefits in your situiation than others but I wouldn't say I agree with them in principle.

So the city dosen't own the land?
Nope.We own a portion of the land......it's like a partnership I guess. We own 12.196% of the property.


So the city dosen't own the land? I understand what that is and if I ever did that I would go through proper channels in an attempt to change anything at the moment I do not like the idea as a whole, I do see some benefits to it such as getting everything to chip in to pay for pool upkeep.

Usually here when you buy a house/apartment/condo/townhouse you either outright own the land or you cooperatively own it with the other people in the HOA. The city doesn't own land except for government buildings, streets and parks. Our HOA also pays for trash service, water, gas, and other things like that. We have a really nice club house that I can rent for $20 for parties, it holds 75 people (too many to fit in our condo!) and is like I said, really nice.



Yes and from previous experience in similar situations you need a lot of people you sometimes find nepotism coming into these sort of areas.
Ours has elections every 3 years so unless they get repeatedly voted into the same postion, it changes up. Like I said I'm running this spring, I have a lot of supporters already.
As for the age of the car that would be one I would relish in perhaps that HOA would buy the owner a new car?
I mentioned that. I also told them I would love to pay the fines, but I was saving up for a more appropriate vehicle and so they could kiss my ass. :D

Do you live in a condo/townhouse or a detached home? Is it a gated community?

No, just a subdivision.

It's incredibly difficult to find a neighborhood without an HA these days. =(

It certainly seems like banning politic signs is an infringement on an important freedom, and a needless one. A better approach might be to agree on the presentation of such signs--upper size limits, placement, etc.

Indeed, I would be fine with all of that. I am not ok with an outright ban.

Of course, if they really want to push the issue and uphold their ban, we'll just move the sign to our little-used extra vehicle in the driveway.

That's the stuff! :p Though if you ever really want to stir up the hornets' nest, there's nothing more effective than a pool use infraction. Maybe it's a California thing, but all hell would break loose when I'd sneak into the pools in the upscale neighborhoods. If you live in one such yourself, inviting an ethnic-minority friend might be as effective. :)

I spent a lot of time sneaking into pools when I lived in Sacramento, where it's still in the 90s after midnight.

Well in that case I can see why a HOA would be of some benefit but I am sure there are just as many regulations that are petty, stupid and really have only be placed in there by somebody who didn't like the colour green for example.

And therein lies the problem. I think an HOA can have its uses, but I've rarely seen one that stays within the reasonable.

My sign is in my own front yard. It's maybe 3 feet tall. It isn't affecting anyone's property values and I don't intend to leave it up forever (just until the election).

So why, exactly, do the busybodies think it is any of their business?

And therein lies the problem. I think an HOA can have its uses, but I've rarely seen one that stays within the reasonable.

My sign is in my own front yard. It's maybe 3 feet tall. It isn't affecting anyone's property values and I don't intend to leave it up forever (just until the election).

So why, exactly, do the busybodies think it is any of their business?

Cause they dont agree with your politics...

Or theyre afraid of Signs...either way, it exemplifies why no one should be able to tell you what you can do on your own damn property, its not like you put it on theirs...

My sign is in my own front yard. It's maybe 3 feet tall. It isn't affecting anyone's property values and I don't intend to leave it up forever (just until the election).

So why, exactly, do the busybodies think it is any of their business?
They're Tesla (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGWUZQ5xCyw) fans?

a HOA is not a state actor, and thus there is no state action and no constitutional protection

looks like its high time to incorporate some rights against non-state actors, eh?

looks like its high time to incorporate some rights against non-state actors, eh?

I didnt even know the Home Owner's Association was an Actor at all...

Ive never seen any of his movies, lol

looks like its high time to incorporate some rights against non-state actors, eh?
Bad, bad idea.

looks like its high time to incorporate some rights against non-state actors, eh?

how the hell do you plan on doing that?

how the hell do you plan on doing that?

constitutional amendments? lining people up against the wall? whatever gets the job done.

how the hell do you plan on doing that?

If the courts will uphold the contracts, you can do it by passing laws that restrict such agreements. From what I understand, some states have passed laws regarding exactly what HOA's can and cannot restrict.

This is, of course, assuming that you can convince your legislators to do it, which would be a good reason to, say, send a letter to every member of the GA General Assembly and the governor. With that many letters sent out, someone will notice. =)

If the courts will uphold the contracts, you can do it by passing laws that restrict such agreements. From what I understand, some states have passed laws regarding exactly what HOA's can and cannot restrict.

exactly. i mean, this isn't exactly unheard of here. not all contracts are or should be valid, even if everyone involved nominally consents. it would be bizarre to think otherwise.

If the courts will uphold the contracts, you can do it by passing laws that restrict such agreements. From what I understand, some states have passed laws regarding exactly what HOA's can and cannot restrict.


That's not "incorporating rights", that's merely creating new statutory constructions. Two very different things.

In fact, "incorporating" since you don't really "incorporate" restricts on A to B. Rather incorporation refers to the application of types of restrictions on the federal government into the 14th amendment, which binds the states. we don't "incorporate" restrictions from one entity to another, we incorporate the terms of one amendment into another amendment, and apply those terms to the purpose of that amendment.

That's not "incorporating rights", that's merely creating new statutory constructions. Two very different things.

In fact, "incorporating" since you don't really "incorporate" restricts on A to B. Rather incorporation refers to the application of types of restrictions on the federal government into the 14th amendment, which binds the states. we don't "incorporate" restrictions from one entity to another, we incorporate the terms of one amendment into another amendment, and apply those terms to the purpose of that amendment.

*shrug* I don't think FS was speaking legalese. =)

I suppose, if you wanted to go to the type of incorporation you're talking about, you'd have to argue that HOAs are, in fact, local governments and thus should be subject to the restrictions of the US government. Of course, that would make them state actors, I think.

It depends on what kind of housing you own. With condos, townhomes, puds and some kinds of stand alone houses, you only own what is within the walls, the grounds are considered common space. If the HOA is responsible for the care and maintenance of the grounds, then, most likely, the grounds are community owned and you can't use them as you wish. I found this out when I was feeding the squirrels in my neighborhood - the HOA was quite unhappy with me and sent me a long list of activities in which I could not partake - I could only use a certain type of bird feeder (which meant I could not feed 95% of the birds in the area), I could not temporarily store paint cans or cat carriers on my deck or under it, I could not plant anything that did not meet their specifications (no tomatoes or peppers) and I most definitely could not feed squirrels or stray cats and so on.

They own the neighborhood as a non-profit corporation. You own your house and the land, but when you signed the deed you signed on to follow the HOA rules.

It's a nice little scam they've set up...banks, city government and your own neighbors conspiring to tie you down with a thousand strings.

It's incredibly difficult to find a neighborhood without an HA these days. =(

Not around here...Wisconsin has a nice streak of social libertarianism that doesn't tolerate such busy-bodies, except in the most upper-class of neighborhoods.

I'm not really familiar with how local councils in other countries work, beyond what I've seen in Hot Fuzz (if you're posting from England - :p), so I can't compare directly. Still, a homeowner's association's powers aren't too intimidating, beyond their ability to raise your monthly dues repeatedly and veto your building projects. Dues were $220 per month back in '96 where a friend of mine lived; in my experience, the primary goal of a HA is to keep downscale outsiders out, whether by pricing them out via fee hikes or going the rent-a-cop route or limiting the number of visitors a member may invite in. I've never lived in a HA housing tract before, but I've gotten a good deal of hilarious threats and hostility directed toward me on behalf of various HAs in my younger days. Although, to be fair, these came from HAs in Orange Country (California), which I would guess to be among the most exclusive/fascistic nationwide. :)

Ah, behind the orange curtain.

Also, the pool use infraction thing only seems to be a big deal in southern california. Up here there aren't enough pools and it's not hot enough for them to be so important.

It's a nice little scam they've set up...banks, city government and your own neighbors conspiring to tie you down with a thousand strings.
I know.

Not around here...Wisconsin has a nice streak of social libertarianism that doesn't tolerate such busy-bodies, except in the most upper-class of neighborhoods.
Most of the neighbhorhoods here that don't have HOA are littered with cars on blocks, broken windows, graffiti on the walls and dead bodies. If you want to live in a neighborhood without those things you have to live in a HOA neighborhood.

The HOA my gf is in owns the thousands of acres of the gated community. It consists of about 3500 homes. Its totally private property so despite the miles of roads, drunk driving cant be punished etc. The State police dont even respond to calls in the community. The private security appears first and if they feel the need for State Police then only they may call them. If you get caught by security speeding on the roads, the speeder doesnt get fined, the homeowner who you are the guest of does. You cant cut trees down in your own yard over 5 inches in diameter without permission and a zillion other rules. But the neighborhood has 3 large manmade lakes, a ski lift, 2 swimming pools , tiki bar, clubhouse /resturant etc and is a beautiful place overall.

Ok, I do have a legal question that some of the posters might be able to answer better than I can, so I'll start with that.

Months ago (prior to Super Tuesday), my husband and I put a political sign in our front yard. I don't know if the time frame matters, so I'm including it for completeness. Ours is not the only political sign in the neighborhood, but it may have been the first to go up.

Yesterday, we received a letter from our Homeowner's Association ordering us to remove the sign - that it is against HA regulations. Apparently, all signs are. :rolleyes:

Now, it is my understanding that, because of the special protection applied to political speech, they cannot prohibit such signs on private property. I'm fairly certain I've seen cases in the news that would provide legal precedence for such a claim, but I'm not entirely certain.

Ok, now that the question of legality is out of the way (and hopefully will be answered), should an HA be able to control your use of your own private property to the point that they prohibit political signs? To what extent (if any) should an HA be able to control your use of your property and why? Should such contracts be voluntary (ie. you get some sort of benefit from being a member and thus choose to join) or should your neighbors be able to force you into them?

Any other questions and discussion pertaining to homeowner's associations is welcome.

If you signed the HA covenant, you probably gave away that right. Many HAs will prevent you from so much as flying a US Flag in your front yard on July 4.

If you buy a house in the HA covenant area, they maintain a legal interest in the appearance of your home as it stands within the neighborhood.

The best solution would be to get a like-minded group of people who believe in freedom of expression, and get elected to the HA board, and change the rules.

It depends on what kind of housing you own. With condos, townhomes, puds and some kinds of stand alone houses, you only own what is within the walls, the grounds are considered common space. If the HOA is responsible for the care and maintenance of the grounds, then, most likely, the grounds are community owned and you can't use them as you wish. I found this out when I was feeding the squirrels in my neighborhood - the HOA was quite unhappy with me and sent me a long list of activities in which I could not partake - I could only use a certain type of bird feeder (which meant I could not feed 95% of the birds in the area), I could not temporarily store paint cans or cat carriers on my deck or under it, I could not plant anything that did not meet their specifications (no tomatoes or peppers) and I most definitely could not feed squirrels or stray cats and so on.

Interesting.

In this case, the land is all ours. The only communal land is at the very front of the subdivision and around some retention ponds.

Doesn't really matter though. They still want a little cookie-cutter neighborhood.

Not around here...Wisconsin has a nice streak of social libertarianism that doesn't tolerate such busy-bodies, except in the most upper-class of neighborhoods.

Lucky!


If you signed the HA covenant, you probably gave away that right. Many HAs will prevent you from so much as flying a US Flag in your front yard on July 4.

Indeed. My question was more along the lines of whether or not it was a right you cannot sign away. There are contracts that will not be upheld for that reason.

Since it apparently is something that is legally allowed, we'll work to make sure it isn't, by trying to get the GA law changed.

If you buy a house in the HA covenant area, they maintain a legal interest in the appearance of your home as it stands within the neighborhood.

Yes, that is the idea.

Of course, I doubt any of them can demonstrate to me exactly how a small sign on my front lawn affects anyone else's property value.

The best solution would be to get a like-minded group of people who believe in freedom of expression, and get elected to the HA board, and change the rules.

That too. I'm out of town right now, but my husband is going to some of the other people who have signs up and asking if they got similar letters and how they feel about it.

I doubt he or I will actually get on the board, but we'll make some noise, that's for sure. Of course, we have to wait until the yearly meeting and probably take off of work (assuming we can get the time and I'm back in town) to do any of that.

My parents have never been bothered by their neighborhood's homeowners association, but they are on the end of a road (not even a cul-de-sac), which juts up against a small farm, so no one really goes up to their end.

But, having looked over the code, they've violated half of the rules in the book. And one night, I aided in breaking a total of thirteen rules.

Napalm, beer, parking on streets, streetlight, vomiting in the road, loud swearing, fireworks, open bonfire, driving in the grass, near nudity (that one wasn't me. I am too merciful), yard sculptures (inflatable spongebob squarepants stolen from burger king), excessive number of people on property, trailer in driveway.

your homeowners association has a specific rule against vomiting in the street?

your homeowners association has a specific rule against vomiting in the street?

Home owner's associations are apparently the dictatorial fantasies of a private group of people masquerading as active neighborhood watches.

your homeowners association has a specific rule against vomiting in the street?

There's probably a rule against bleeding there, too.

your homeowners association has a specific rule against vomiting in the street?

That is odd.

I'd think it would be something more like, "If you vomit on the street, you are responsible for cleaning it up."

the easiest way to get around HA's is find relatives of someone who just passed on. they likely didnt have to sign the rules of the HA to get the house, and can sell it to you with out forcing you to Sign. what happens is the contract says if you sell it you must make the buyer sign the contract or be sued. however the dead can't be sued.

the easiest way to get around HA's is find relatives of someone who just passed on. they likely didnt have to sign the rules of the HA to get the house, and can sell it to you with out forcing you to Sign. what happens is the contract says if you sell it you must make the buyer sign the contract or be sued. however the dead can't be sued.

I'm going to leave this as an example why it's generally bad policy to take legal advice from strangers.

I'm going to leave this as an example why it's generally bad policy to take legal advice from strangers.

LOL

You mean it isn't true?!?!

"N.J. high court: Homeowners must abide by association rules

By The Associated Press
07.27.07

TRENTON, N.J. — Homeowners forfeit certain freedoms of speech — such as the right to post political signs on their front lawns — when they live in a community in which the homeowners' association bans such expression, the state Supreme Court ruled yesterday.

The high court ruled that homeowners' association policies are not at odds with the state Constitution's guarantee of free speech.

The case involves residents of the Twin Rivers master planned development in East Windsor who objected to some regulations set by their homeowners' association. About 10,000 people live in the high-density, central New Jersey community of apartments, condos, single-family houses and commercial buildings.

The residents who sued objected to restrictions on the display of political signs, being charged high fees to use the association's community room, and the refusal by the association to allow dissenters' views in the development's newspaper."

Well that's shitty.
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=18850

your homeowners association has a specific rule against vomiting in the street?

The board of my HOA had an emergency meeting today to enact a new rule that states "it is against the pool rules to defecate in the water".

Yeah, so basically some woman shit in the water and we had to close the pool (I'm on the pool committee) and if you do something that causes the pool to be shut down you have to pay a $10 fine......well, since she said it didn't say in the rules that you couldn't shit in the pool, she didn't do anything to "cause it to be shut down"........well, shit. Literally.

It's against the rules now though! If she does it again......we'll have $10.

But your political speech isn't being banned. The signs are. They're not stifling your message, just your medium.

That stifles your free speech ... to take it to an extreme what if all methods of free speech were banned except writing message to post on a bulletin board

You are simply having your mediums restricted

Can you still call it "free" speech when you can not choose when where or how to express it?

Most of the neighbhorhoods here that don't have HOA are littered with cars on blocks, broken windows, graffiti on the walls and dead bodies. If you want to live in a neighborhood without those things you have to live in a HOA neighborhood.

Well, you'll find that in the urban areas of Milwaukee...but that's also where HOA's have made more inroads in middle class areas.

Most places in the state has a distinct lack of the conditions you describe, and achieve this with few to no HOAs.

Lucky!

It's a boring state...but it's a safe state. :p

Nope.We own a portion of the land......it's like a partnership I guess. We own 12.196% of the property.



Usually here when you buy a house/apartment/condo/townhouse you either outright own the land or you cooperatively own it with the other people in the HOA. The city doesn't own land except for government buildings, streets and parks. Our HOA also pays for trash service, water, gas, and other things like that. We have a really nice club house that I can rent for $20 for parties, it holds 75 people (too many to fit in our condo!) and is like I said, really nice.

Oh ok for sure getting a much clearer picture now.


Ours has elections every 3 years so unless they get repeatedly voted into the same postion, it changes up. Like I said I'm running this spring, I have a lot of supporters already.

Well I hope you go well Smunkee

*pins "Vote 1 Smunkee" badge on self*

I mentioned that. I also told them I would love to pay the fines, but I was saving up for a more appropriate vehicle and so they could kiss my ass. :D

:D I still think that some laws would need to be in place to stop something like that happening.


And isn't there some sort of Freedom of Association laws that come into this? In fact why isn't this important freedom enshrined in the US constitution?

I'm going to leave this as an example why it's generally bad policy to take legal advice from strangers.

Does that include you Neo? ;) Yes I know or at least you claim to be a laywer

The board of my HOA had an emergency meeting today to enact a new rule that states "it is against the pool rules to defecate in the water".

Yeah, so basically some woman shit in the water and we had to close the pool (I'm on the pool committee) and if you do something that causes the pool to be shut down you have to pay a $10 fine......well, since she said it didn't say in the rules that you couldn't shit in the pool, she didn't do anything to "cause it to be shut down"........well, shit. Literally.

It's against the rules now though! If she does it again......we'll have $10.

See now that is a good example of having a HOA and why in these cases you will need to have these sort of regulations, however, in saying that a rule where your car must be of a certain time frame is not. I would like to go there with a GT-HO back from when cars where cars and see what they have to say about that I would remind them that my car is worth a hell of a lot more than their crappy 2007 Mazda (Apologies to those that own Mazda's)

I'm going to leave this as an example why it's generally bad policy to take legal advice from strangers.

upon reading more I realize my advice only works with the most limited HOA's.
the ones with private property/gated communities that collects various taxes ETC are unaffected by using wills to get around the requirement to force the person buying the home off of you to sign the contract.