NationStates Jolt Archive

Got into a debate about a military tradition called the Zapfenstreich which is still practiced in Germany. And about whether it has any place in a modern democracy.

To give you an idea of what the "zapfenstreich" is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fer_Zapfenstreich

And here are some visuals of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emU7Hgt2j4U (official zapfenstreich for former Minister President Stoiber)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VarayMJDDTE (celebration of 50 years Bundeswehr)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qPjiNPruOA (zapfenstreich for former German chancellor Shröder)



In short it's a tattoo where certain members of the government when they retire (chancellors, presidents, generals) get a last honor with an official march.

It's controversial since it's imagery is ultra-militaristic and very much a remnant of the Imperial days. In fact the only real difference between the Imperial zapfenstreich and this one was that as of 1922 the "deutschlandslied (current German anthem)" is used instead of the anthem of the former Kaisers.
Another controversy is the overt call for prayer. Which is seen as an official endorsement of a specific religion, which it is.

The well-known politician Hans Koschnick of the Social Democratic Party labelled it "predemocratic" and "obsolete". In 1996, the Party of Democratic Socialism and the Green Party unsuccessfully motioned for the ceremony, or at least the prayer, to be abolished.


So do you think the German State should eradicate such an overly Imperialistic and militaristic tradition? Which is in it's very essence much at odds with the modern status of Germany as a liberal democratic State.

I really don't see a problem if Harry Hun wants to have a little pomp:confused:

Germany has a military tradition? i dont wanna know....

Clearly, the Federal Republic, being the overly anti-democratic and militaristic country that it is, must fight these martial excesses at every opportunity.

On a serious note, I'd much rather they quit the haggling about idiotic ceremonies and get a few more boots into Afghanistan. I still don't understand just how German politicians (and the public as well) can sleep so well, knowing that it's Americans, Britons, Canadians et al are taking the shots for them.

Oh, of course, banning it will stop the thing happening. Yes.

Leave them alone, it's their silly little ceremony.

Oh, of course, banning it will stop the thing happening. Yes.

Leave them alone, it's their silly little ceremony.

As long as they cancel the ceremonial invasion of Poland....

COn a serious note, I'd much rather they quit the haggling about idiotic ceremonies and get a few more boots into Afghanistan.
Earlier in the year they sent 200 more guys who were actually trained and equipped to fight, and they're sending about 1,000 more by the end of the year IIRC.
I still don't understand just how German politicians (and the public as well) can sleep so well, knowing that it's Americans, Britons, Canadians et al are taking the shots for them.
Because they don't particularly care about Afghanistan, seeing as it's not even remotely Their Thing and has prompted a fairly large shake-up about Auslandseinsätze, something nobody can really be arsed to talk about and all that.

No. I quite like it. People need to stop getting offended by every little thing.

It's very militaristic because it's an integral part of the military. *SHOCK*.

It's not used for anything but a beautiful cultural ceremony. It doesn't harm anyone/anything. Why disband your own culture just because some lefties don't like it.

There is nothing un-democratic about it. Democratic does not mean anti-military....

Ehrlich find ich's eigentlich geil. Es macht einfach spaß.

As long as they cancel the ceremonial invasion of Poland....
Oh, of course, a country whose soldiers have to volunteer to serve in another country and are so woefully underequipped that they couldn't even fight the Taliban at night until March is basically Nazi Germany all over again.

Yes, nice one there. You're not at all a mindless prick or anything.

The invasion of France is still ok then ?? Jolly Good.

Earlier in the year they sent 200 more guys who were actually trained and equipped to fight, and they're sending about 1,000 more by the end of the year IIRC.
It's not really an issue of equipment. It's an issue of rules of engagement, and the places they are put. What they should be doing is set up a seperate contingent that is not part of ISAF, but part of OEF and send it to the south, wherever they are needed.

And do you have a link for those thousand guys? I hadn't heard anything about it, and unless they're playing around, it would require a substantial increase in the troup caps placed by parliament.

Because they don't particularly care about Afghanistan, seeing as it's not even remotely Their Thing and has prompted a fairly large shake-up about Auslandseinsätze, something nobody can really be arsed to talk about and all that.
I know why they're not doing it, but that doesn't mean it's a particularly good reason. I don't see what all these Canadians have ever done to Germany to deserve to basically die as cannon fodder so German politicians don't have to face bad opinion polls.

Meh... it's militaristic, ridiculous and silly in the extreme. And a fucking waste of time and money at that. I'm all for getting rid of it.

I know why they're not doing it, but that doesn't mean it's a particularly good reason. I don't see what all these Canadians have ever done to Germany to deserve to basically die as cannon fodder so German politicians don't have to face bad opinion polls.

They've joined the army?

Meh... it's militaristic, ridiculous and silly in the extreme. And a fucking waste of time and money at that. I'm all for getting rid of it.
Here's a revolutionary idea! Don't watch it! They people who care about it should be able to continue it and participate it. It's part of German culture and tradition.

How could it possibly be a waste of time if the people WANT to do it and nobody is forcing you to watch it, anyway?

They've joined the army?
So have the Germans. No conscripts will be sent to Afghanistan, the German soldiers there are volunteers just like the Canadians.

A job needs doing, and as it is some are doing the dirty work and suffering for it and others aren't. It's politics, and I don't like it.

It's part of German culture and tradition.
Not really. Not in any meaningful way.

How could it possibly be a waste of time if the people WANT to do it and nobody is forcing you to watch it, anyway?
The question is: why should the taxpayer fund it?

Here's a revolutionary idea! Don't watch it! They people who care about it should be able to continue it and participate it. It's part of German culture and tradition.

How could it possibly be a waste of time if the people WANT to do it and nobody is forcing you to watch it, anyway?

Well, if those bigwigs want it, they should pay for it, shouldn't they?
I don't see why the taxpayer should have to front the bill for some outdated, pompous self-celebration of some geriatric party officials.

What's the issue?

The UK has military Tattoos all the time and no one seems to get upset.

So have the Germans. No conscripts will be sent to Afghanistan, the German soldiers there are volunteers just like the Canadians.

A job needs doing, and as it is some are doing the dirty work and suffering for it and others aren't. It's politics, and I don't like it.

In that case, I personally wouldn't have any problem sending them anywhere *shrugs*

What's the issue?

The UK has military Tattoos all the time and no one seems to get upset.

What, with taxpayer-funded calls to prayer?

Plus, the UK population has quite a different attitude towards their military...

What, with taxpayer-funded calls to prayer?

Plus, the UK population has quite a different attitude towards their military...

No calls to prayer that I know of but we do celebrate the birthday of the head of the church of england with a tatoo.

How so is my attitude different?

Nothing wrong with tradition. If anything, allowing it gets those 'ultra-militaristic' tendancies out and aired every now and then.
Banning things just tends to make people miss them.

Oh, of course, a country whose soldiers have to volunteer to serve in another country and are so woefully underequipped that they couldn't even fight the Taliban at night until March is basically Nazi Germany all over again.

Yes, nice one there. You're not at all a mindless prick or anything.

Wow tough call, who has less of a sence of humor, the English or Germans. Unless of course your German and just live in York...

And what would you prefer to a volunteer army? One where people were forced to join? I dont understand that critisism at all.

They've joined the army?

so they deserve to get hell because German troops are too busy masturbating in the North?

Well, if those bigwigs want it, they should pay for it, shouldn't they?
I don't see why the taxpayer should have to front the bill for some outdated, pompous self-celebration of some geriatric party officials.

pomp is good for troop morale and recruitment :)

What, with taxpayer-funded calls to prayer?

yes

And what would you prefer to a volunteer army? One where people were forced to join?

one where you don't get to choose what wars you fight when you enlist

I say let them continue the ceremonies. What's the big deal? It's just a formal farewell tradition. What harm does it do, and what good will come of ending it? None on both counts.

It's not really an issue of equipment. It's an issue of rules of engagement, and the places they are put. What they should be doing is set up a seperate contingent that is not part of ISAF, but part of OEF and send it to the south, wherever they are needed.
Aye, to begin with, it was more an equipment issue. Their Dingo vehicles which were about as heavy as it got aren't particularly suitable for night operations. Now they have their new Pumas, amongst other things.

Also keep in mind that the Germans are trying to go for a soft-touch approach, which is fairly sensible, seeing as they're mainly in a peaceful area at the moment, and irritating people will just worsen the situation.
And do you have a link for those thousand guys? I hadn't heard anything about it, and unless they're playing around, it would require a substantial increase in the troup caps placed by parliament.
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/army/Germany_Plans_to_Send_1_000_More_Troops_to_Afghanistan110016084.php

Enjoy.
I know why they're not doing it, but that doesn't mean it's a particularly good reason. I don't see what all these Canadians have ever done to Germany to deserve to basically die as cannon fodder so German politicians don't have to face bad opinion polls.
I don't really see what the Afghanis have done to Canada, more to the point...

Wow tough call, who has less of a sence of humor, the English or Germans. Unless of course your German and just live in York...
Based on your previous post in this topic, eugh. Aye, was probably humourous, sorry.
And what would you prefer to a volunteer army? One where people were forced to join? I dont understand that critisism at all.
I'd like Germany either to get an all-volunteer army or lengthen conscription and Zivi so that people 'get into' the whole thing.

so they deserve to get hell because German troops are too busy masturbating in the North?

No, Germans who volunteer deserve the same, in my opinion.


pomp is good for troop morale and recruitment :)

Not something that ought to be promoted, then.

I say let them continue the ceremonies. What's the big deal? It's just a formal farewell tradition. What harm does it do, and what good will come of ending it? None on both counts.

Continuing it will continue to waste time and money.
Ending it will save time and money.

No, Germans who volunteer deserve the same, in my opinion.

:eek:

Not something that ought to be promoted, then.

so you either want a bunch of depressed Italians who never get out or Germany to not actually have any new recruits despite the need for increased numbers?

so you either want a bunch of depressed Italians who never get out or Germany to not actually have any new recruits despite the need for increased numbers?
Eh, so long as former East Germany remains poor, the Bundeswehr is going to have enough new recruits.

Got into a debate about a military tradition called the Zapfenstreich which is still practiced in Germany. And about whether it has any place in a modern democracy.

To give you an idea of what the "zapfenstreich" is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fer_Zapfenstreich

And here are some visuals of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emU7Hgt2j4U (official zapfenstreich for former Minister President Stoiber)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VarayMJDDTE (celebration of 50 years Bundeswehr)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qPjiNPruOA (zapfenstreich for former German chancellor Shröder)



In short it's a tattoo where certain members of the government when they retire (chancellors, presidents, generals) get a last honor with an official march. And I'm puzzled what's wrong with that.

It's controversial since it's imagery is ultra-militaristic and very much a remnant of the Imperial days. In fact the only real difference between the Imperial zapfenstreich and this one was that as of 1922 the "deutschlandslied (current German anthem)" is used instead of the anthem of the former Kaisers....and the uniforms, and the songs they play...
Ultra-militaristic? Get real.
Another controversy is the overt call for prayer. Which is seen as an official endorsement of a specific religion, which it is. Which would be relevant if that were unconstitutional, which, surprise, surprise, it isn't.

The well-known politician Hans Koschnick of the Social Democratic Party labelled it "predemocratic" and "obsolete". In 1996, the Party of Democratic Socialism and the Green Party unsuccessfully motioned for the ceremony, or at least the prayer, to be abolished.First time I've heard of Koschnick.


So do you think the German State should eradicate such an overly Imperialistic and militaristic tradition? Which is in it's very essence much at odds with the modern status of Germany as a liberal democratic State.Overly imperialistic? How is playing "I did it my way" overly militaristic?

Eh, so long as former East Germany remains poor, the Bundeswehr is going to have enough new recruits.

and like most European armies its desperately looking to increase it current numbers to operate in multiple medium sized theaters that are currently looking the trend

and like most European armies its desperately looking to increase it current numbers to operate in multiple medium sized theaters that are currently looking the trendThis statement is false.

This statement is false.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h225/doublej794/orly_owl.jpg

http://www.kas.de/db_files/dokumente/7_dokument_dok_pdf_3302_1.pdf

edit: to explain without having to poke into the above the Bundeswehr has had a major restructure after 2000 to go about with the new international business

http://www.kas.de/db_files/dokumente/7_dokument_dok_pdf_3302_1.pdf
When I got checked for the draft back in 02, they were finding excuses not to take people left and right. Heck, they didn't even take people that were rated T-3 (on a scale from T-1 meaning fully suitable and T-5 meaning unsuitable) anymore. Now, six years later, my little brother got drafted, and the practice hasn't changed one bit. The German military isn't looking for new recruits in any form that could be called "desperate."

and like most European armies its desperately looking to increase it current numbers to operate in multiple medium sized theaters that are currently looking the trend
Erm not really.

The issue with the Germans is not that they don't have enough soldiers - indeed you have to do national service or work in a care home or whatever, and their standing army is also quite large as a solution to the poverty in East Germany (something like 80% of new recruits come from the "Neuen Länder").

Their 'problem' is that because of Germany's leading role in WW2, they've been extremely cautious about deploying outside of their national borders, and hence their capability to do so is, understandably, weaker than almost every other similar sized NATO country, because the Bund wasn't intended to fight low-intensity warfare in Afghanistan and the Lebanon, it was meant to repel a land invasion from the east, and has had trouble adapting to the new way of things.

When I got checked for the draft back in 02, they were finding excuses not to take people left and right. Heck, they didn't even take people that were rated T-3 (on a scale from T-1 meaning fully suitable and T-5 meaning unsuitable) anymore. Now, six years later, my little brother got drafted, and the practice hasn't changed one bit. The German military isn't looking for new recruits in any form that could be called "desperate."

the British army is if anything raising its standards as well but that doesn't mean its not having serious issues with having an army under 100,000 (the peaceful peacetime number) hence why its plastering TV and radio with ads atm

The issue with the Germans is not that they don't have enough soldiers - indeed you have to do national service or work in a care home or whatever, and their standing army is also quite large as a solution to the poverty in East Germany (something like 80% of new recruits come from the "Neuen Länder").

the problem is Germany's troops do not have the same deployablility as with other armies due to its use of conscription structure (which still leaves a pitifully small number for a conscription nation of 250,000 personnel)

the Bund wasn't intended to fight low-intensity warfare in Afghanistan and the Lebanon, it was meant to repel a land invasion from the east, and has had trouble adapting to the new way of things.

and thus it is needing to increase numbers to control multiple zones of conflict in peacetime unlike the traditional cold war structure of filling up the west German border with only small scale operations in other parts of the world

We better get rid of the other military and police tattoos that are conducted throughout the world lest it offend some wackjob who has nothing better to do than to cause trouble.

the problem is Germany's troops do not have the same deployablility as with other armies due to its use of conscription structure (which still leaves a pitifully small number for a conscription nation of 250,000 personnel)
No, it doesn't have the same deployability because it didn't need it in the Cold War, and didn't have the money to in the 1990s, with the amount of money that had to be spent sorting out the eastern bits. There is also the lack of political will to spend vast sums of money on getting involved in other peoples' business in military terms.
and thus it is needing to increase numbers to control multiple zones of conflict in peacetime unlike the traditional cold war structure of filling up the west German border with only small scale operations in other parts of the world
I don't see where the need for this is. It'd be helpful to other NATO members, true. But it's not actually needed by Germany itself.

the British army is if anything raising its standards as well but that doesn't mean its not having serious issues with having an army under 100,000 (the peaceful peacetime number) hence why its plastering TV and radio with ads atmIt's not a matter of raising standards, they're not taking people because they can't afford to pay everyone that qualifies and doesn't go for Zivildienst instead.

Got into a debate about a military tradition called the Zapfenstreich which is still practiced in Germany. And about whether it has any place in a modern democracy.

To give you an idea of what the "zapfenstreich" is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fer_Zapfenstreich

And here are some visuals of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emU7Hgt2j4U (official zapfenstreich for former Minister President Stoiber)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VarayMJDDTE (celebration of 50 years Bundeswehr)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qPjiNPruOA (zapfenstreich for former German chancellor Shröder)



In short it's a tattoo where certain members of the government when they retire (chancellors, presidents, generals) get a last honor with an official march.

It's controversial since it's imagery is ultra-militaristic and very much a remnant of the Imperial days. In fact the only real difference between the Imperial zapfenstreich and this one was that as of 1922 the "deutschlandslied (current German anthem)" is used instead of the anthem of the former Kaisers.
Another controversy is the overt call for prayer. Which is seen as an official endorsement of a specific religion, which it is.

The well-known politician Hans Koschnick of the Social Democratic Party labelled it "predemocratic" and "obsolete". In 1996, the Party of Democratic Socialism and the Green Party unsuccessfully motioned for the ceremony, or at least the prayer, to be abolished.


So do you think the German State should eradicate such an overly Imperialistic and militaristic tradition? Which is in it's very essence much at odds with the modern status of Germany as a liberal democratic State.

Nothing wrong with this practice. It is fucking badass, and every Western country should have 1000% percent more military parades.

I don't see where the need for this is. It'd be helpful to other NATO members, true. But it's not actually needed by Germany itself.
It'd be useful to try and normalise relations with the past, but even more importantly, it's simply par for the course for a second rate power, which German foreign policy aspires to be. How, for example, can you expect a country that cannot mount its own military operations anywhere to fill a full-time seat at the UNSC? Whether as Germany or within some EU setup, the Bundeswehr needs to be modernised and readied, politically and technologically, to make a difference in the decades to come.

Germany has a military tradition? i dont wanna know....

Prussia is where the modern military traditions came from, marching, regimentation of ranks etc.

It'd be useful to try and normalise relations with the past, but even more importantly, it's simply par for the course for a second rate power, which German foreign policy aspires to be. How, for example, can you expect a country that cannot mount its own military operations anywhere to fill a full-time seat at the UNSC?
Quite, which is why it doesn't. Keep in mind also that other 'powers' on the UNSC at this point include the mighty Belgians, Burkina Faso and Panama.
Whether as Germany or within some EU setup, the Bundeswehr needs to be modernised and readied, politically and technologically, to make a difference in the decades to come.
Err.. why?

Seeing as most Germans don't seem to be too happy about the situation regarding Iraq and Afghanistan, they are having trouble fighting as a part of UNIFIL for fairly obvious reasons and nobody gives a shit about the Balkans (surprisingly enough), I don't see why they would need to improve their powers regarding force projection.

Quite, which is why it doesn't. Keep in mind also that other 'powers' on the UNSC at this point include the mighty Belgians, Burkina Faso and Panama.
No, no, by "full-time", I meant permanent. A proper seat, with veto and everything, as they've been campaigning for.

Seeing as most Germans don't seem to be too happy about the situation regarding Iraq and Afghanistan, they are having trouble fighting as a part of UNIFIL for fairly obvious reasons and nobody gives a shit about the Balkans (surprisingly enough), I don't see why they would need to improve their powers regarding force projection.
It's simply a matter of one coming with the other. The country can't have any international diplomatic influence when it has no power projection capability. To the extent to which Germans want tyrannies to be ended and living conditions in those countries to be improved (and I realise that this extent may not be huge), or to stop the overreliance in conflicts and crises on the Americans (which they probably do want), the Bundeswehr needs to be better.

What makes no sense however is to feel all insulted when the Americans, Iranians or anyone else don't listen to the German position when there exists nothing to make that position any more important than Paraguay's.