NationStates Jolt Archive

I don't know if this has been done before but what the hell, what do people think of the EU (European Union), i'm of the opinion that it takes to much much from national sovereignity but was a good idea originally as a economic block.

Please do tell me your own opinions whether you're european or not

I think it's a feeble attempt to try to mimic and compete with the USA.

It does seem to be trying to achieve the strengths of the USA's Federal system, however it is being formed in a very different way from the USA, as far as i know there was never a time when all 50 U.S states were seperate nations. And i think the EU has different more economically focussed aims than the USA

Certainly the power of each individual state would be greater as part of the EU (which would if it was a single nation be the richest nation in the world) allowing them to compete with the USA

its good because to have any political or economic influence on the future, Europe is going to have to stick together and get over the whole isolated nationstate mentality

plus I can go live and work anywhere in the E.U which is groovy:)

I think it's a feeble attempt to try to mimic and compete with the USA.

so feeble is when we win trade disputes with the US and threaten sanctions for your pollution?

An economic trading block/union is an excellent idea and would really help European economies. A political union is a disaster for European people, democracy and soverignty.

Funny enough, our Federal system is the weakest link of our nation IMO. I think the States are our strength and they need to be given the power back. Local politics solve more problems than anything else. The one silver lining of our Federal system is defense, something even the founders of this nation understood. We really need to get a grip on our federal budget though, it's going to end up killing this nation.

'An economic trading block/union is an excellent idea and would really help European economies. A political union is a disaster for European people, democracy and soverignty.'- The Atlantian Islands

Atlantian Islands you essentially share my views, economic cooperation is good for all involved but i don't like the idea of adding another layer of government to drown out my voice. And with there now being talk of overriding to vote of the irish to still pass the lisbon treaty i think the EU is taking a very dangerous turn towards a federal state that ignores the will of it's people.

Awesome trading times, the farmers complain, but without the CAP the industry would be dying on its knees, and politically it's getting increasingly strong.

A federal Europe with its own army and foreign secretary is going to be a real force in the world when it arrives. With the current halfway-house system, it takes away our sovereignty but gives little in return. It needs to go more one way or the other, either turning back into simply a trading block, or becoming fully federalised.

so feeble is when we win trade disputes with the US and threaten sanctions for your pollution?

No my friend, feeble is not understanding what you are trying to mimic. The EU as a free trade agreement in Europe is a good thing, we could use some competition, it's healthy. A political organization that starts to dictate to other nations is a bad thing. Some would say that the EU was created to mimic our Federal government but from the outside looking in, I would argue that you're taking on the worst aspects of our federal government rather than the best ones. From the looks of things and listening to people in the UK and Holland during trips there, I would say that the EU is turning into another socialist movement in an effort to redistribute the wealth. JMO of course but that's what I see the EU moving toward.

As to the "Sanctions over our pollution", let me guess. You're a global warming is going to kill the planet person, right? Well, there's simply too much science that disagrees with the alarmists that claim global warming is being caused by man. 100,000 year trends cannot be accurately depicted by 60 years of stable data. As far as sanctions over this, please, by all means, throw sanctions on us. I would like nothing more than the US to flip the bird to the UN as it is a joke of an organization. We can convert the UN building into something productive. We will be hurt far less by sanctions by the EU than they will. We receive far more good from Europe than we export to them. That is a net win for us if you cut trade with us.

The trading bloc, the single currency, and free movement of people.
Is something that the US and NAFTA should seek to replicate.


however adding another level of goverment seems to do little more then increase corruption and distance the goverment from the people.

So the early EU was good. lately the EU seems to be becoming an oppressive.
Is there really a need for a UN just for europe??

however adding another level of goverment seems to do little more then increase corruption and distance the goverment from the people.


Thats exactly my problem with the EU, more bureaucracy , less accountability and yet another layer you have to reach to get your point of view heard.

It does seem to be trying to achieve the strengths of the USA's Federal system, however it is being formed in a very different way from the USA, as far as i know there was never a time when all 50 U.S states were seperate nations. And i think the EU has different more economically focussed aims than the USA

Certainly the power of each individual state would be greater as part of the EU (which would if it was a single nation be the richest nation in the world) allowing them to compete with the USA

Back right after we dumped your precious tea, the 13 Colonies might as well have been seperate nations. There was some unity, but more akin to an alliance then a union. And even that alliance went by the wayside once the war ended. Each state had it's own currency, tax law, and a dozen other distinguishing factors. It took a financial crisis for the US under the Constitution to be born.

Thats exactly my problem with the EU, more bureaucracy , less accountability and yet another layer you have to reach to get your point of view heard.
If you want to get your point of view heard on more 'social' matters, ring your MEP, or if it's with business, ring the European Ombudsman. It's only 'impenetrable' if you don't actually try to use it and just listen to the Daily Mail's particularly stupid opinion on the matter.

A federal Europe with its own army and foreign secretary is going to be a real force in the world when it arrives. With the current halfway-house system, it takes away our sovereignty but gives little in return. It needs to go more one way or the other, either turning back into simply a trading block, or becoming fully federalised.

It's seems strange that there's a strong correlation between being one of the crazed "Britain must be a world force!" guys and not wanting to be part of an organisation that is going to give Britain more power.

Good and bad.
The claims that it's not transparent enough are baseless, in my opinion. Usually raised by people who can't be bothered to keep themselves informed and want to be spoonfed any little bit of information, preferable pre-digested.

It could do with more democracy, definitely. The Lisbon treaty was, among other things, aiming to take decision power away from the commisioners and hand it to the - democratically elected by all EU citizens - EU parliament. It was vetoed, so we'll just have to wait for the next revision I guess.

On the other hand, it has led to more flexibilty and more availabilty of information and services throughout Europe. It has laid a very good basis for peace and cooperation, and economic growth.

Personally, I think despite it's faults, it's still mostly positive.

, however it is being formed in a very different way from the USA, as far as i know there was never a time when all 50 U.S states were seperate nations. And i think the EU has different more economically focussed aims than the USA


the time under the articles of the confederation the 13 states were very independent of each other.

Also during the period of Salutatory Neglect from 1660 to 1763 the colonies were independent for all practical purposes. and it is when the Brits tried to reassert authority that the flames of revolution were sewed.

Also prior to the Civil was people referred to the Untied States ARE as opposed to IS. so there is room to argue that prior to the Civil war the US was much closer to the EU of today than the US of Today.
sorry history major in me had to come out.

Good and bad.
The claims that it's not transparent enough are baseless, in my opinion. Usually raised by people who can't be bothered to keep themselves informed and want to be spoonfed any little bit of information, preferable pre-digested.

It could do with more democracy, definitely. The Lisbon treaty was, among other things, aiming to take decision power away from the commisioners and hand it to the - democratically elected by all EU citizens - EU parliament. It was vetoed, so we'll just have to wait for the next revision I guess.

On the other hand, it has led to more flexibilty and more availabilty of information and services throughout Europe. It has laid a very good basis for peace and cooperation, and economic growth.

Personally, I think despite it's faults, it's still mostly positive.

To be honest i am curious how it works out.

I may be a minority among Americans. But I could see a future for such an organization expanding into European culturally influenced areas in North America. And it may very well be needed to for the democracies of the world to deal with China.

Where's the "Neutral - Not From Europe" option?

The EU raped Finland's (Where I am from) economy. Everything is MUCH more expensive and all countries in EU will burn in the hell-like flames of inflation.

To be honest i am curious how it works out.

I may be a minority among Americans. But I could see a future for such an organization expanding into European culturally influenced areas in North America. And it may very well be needed to for the democracies of the world to deal with China.

To be honest, I would have doubts about that.
One of the main problems the EU has and will have for the foreseeable future is the many cultures it includes. In the past, societies this diverse could only be governed by a more or less tyranical system. It'll be interesting to see how Europe will function as a major democracy, definitely, but right now further extensions would frankly worry me. I don't think they would have any positive effect on its stability.

To be honest, I would have doubts about that.
One of the main problems the EU has and will have for the foreseeable future is the many cultures it includes. In the past, societies this diverse could only be governed by a more or less tyranical system. It'll be interesting to see how Europe will function as a major democracy, definitely, but right now further extensions would frankly worry me. I don't think they would have any positive effect on its stability.

I'd say the US would be better off without being part of the EU anyway, I like the way things are: cheap (relative to European prices).

Anyway, as an American I don't really like the idea of a unified Europe, mostly because the views of so many Europeans on this board are anti-American.

I'd say the US would be better off without being part of the EU anyway, I like the way things are: cheap (relative to European prices).

Anyway, as an American I don't really like the idea of a unified Europe, mostly because the views of so many Europeans on this board are anti-American.

Well, seeing as I've been called anti-American before for saying that I wouldn't want to go and live in the US, I now assume the label means little more than "not blindly in love with anything and everything USAmerican"...

Knocking down borders and promoting free trade = always a good thing

Taking a step towards world government = always a bad thing

It's seems strange that there's a strong correlation between being one of the crazed "Britain must be a world force!" guys and not wanting to be part of an organisation that is going to give Britain more power.
Aye, but their issue is that everyone will get recognised for what they'll probably perceive as 'British' acheivements.

The EU raped Finland's (Where I am from) economy. Everything is MUCH more expensive and all countries in EU will burn in the hell-like flames of inflation.

wait so your saying that doing away with trade barriers has made your goods increase in value...hmmm

Well, seeing as I've been called anti-American before for saying that I wouldn't want to go and live in the US, I now assume the label means little more than "not blindly in love with anything and everything USAmerican"...

well its all the same really I mean its not very hard to hate the US

Knocking down borders and promoting free trade = always a good thing

Taking a step towards world government = always a bad thing

Who would want to govern this mess???

Knocking down borders and promoting free trade = always a good thing

Taking a step towards world government = always a bad thing

I'm confused as to how you propose to expand free trade and knock down borders, but keep all states involved in little, separate boxes.

Not a fan.
Would you trust the running of your country to an organisation whose accountants have refused to sign off their accounts for 14 years straight.
In theory it is a good idea, but it is run by egotists, only there for their own benifit.

Not a fan.
Would you trust the running of your country to an organisation whose accountants have refused to sign off their accounts for 14 years straight.
In theory it is a good idea, but it is run by egotists, only there for their own benifit.

But... I benefited greatly from it, and last time I checked, I wasn't one of those who actually ran the show... :confused:

Not a fan.
Would you trust the running of your country to an organisation whose accountants have refused to sign off their accounts for 14 years straight.
In theory it is a good idea, but it is run by egotists, only there for their own benifit.
I, for one, love to go to Europe on holiday, and the EU has made this far easier. The single currency means I can kick about most of Europe with the same notes, and if I really like it, there's nothing in the law stopping me settling down right wherever I am in the EU and starting a new life there.

I think the EU is a really great idea. it gives the member nations more political power. However I think the EU should take another step towards a "world government" as it is now a single state can overrule a proposition. For example: all the nations in the EU agree that tobacco should be banned, except Sweden then it's a nation with 9 million people overruling a decision that nations with 488 million people agrees with. What is the benefit of having EU laws that every nation would pass without the EU anyway?

I'm inclined to say good in theory, but screwing up in practice. I like the concept of a group of nations working together while maintianing local autonomy, but I think its growing to fast, to include nations who's government's are of little merit, and I'm very disturbed by the religious/ethnic tensions and resulting problems.

It's both good and bad. Good, in that it is an excellent idea for trading and the economy. Bad, in that it is ridiculously corrupt and spends far too much money on the wrong things.

I think Europe has reached a bit of an impasse at the moment - for the last 50 years it's been walking a fine line over whether it is inter-governmental or federal in nature, trying to pretend to both camps that it is both and neither. But it can't play that game anymore; it's going to have to decide who it is and where it's going before it can move forward again.

I'd say the US would be better off without being part of the EU anyway, I like the way things are: cheap (relative to European prices).

Anyway, as an American I don't really like the idea of a unified Europe, mostly because the views of so many Europeans on this board are anti-American.


Um, it's not just Europeans.

the time under the articles of the confederation the 13 states were very independent of each other.

Also during the period of Salutatory Neglect from 1660 to 1763 the colonies were independent for all practical purposes. and it is when the Brits tried to reassert authority that the flames of revolution were sewed.

Also prior to the Civil was people referred to the Untied States ARE as opposed to IS. so there is room to argue that prior to the Civil war the US was much closer to the EU of today than the US of Today.
sorry history major in me had to come out.

But had nothing like the traditional rivalries and cultural and linguistical differences that are present in the modern EU.

If NAFTA grew to be what the EU has become We Americans would fuckin Riot in the Streets...

Im surprised that at least the Brits, Franks and Germans havent already...

I think it's a feeble attempt to try to mimic and compete with the USA.
How is the EU mimicking the US? Competing, sure, though so is any other trade bloc or nation; that's what we call capitalism. But mimicking?

To be honest, I would have doubts about that.
One of the main problems the EU has and will have for the foreseeable future is the many cultures it includes. In the past, societies this diverse could only be governed by a more or less tyranical system. It'll be interesting to see how Europe will function as a major democracy, definitely, but right now further extensions would frankly worry me. I don't think they would have any positive effect on its stability.

by the Us joining I am thinking 50 to 100 years after the EU has sorted everything out. And the rising power of China or India makes it needed.

Maybe have Japan and South Korea join as well.

How is the EU mimicking the US? Competing, sure, though so is any other trade bloc or nation; that's what we call capitalism. But mimicking?

Its a little off topic but, I remember a non-capitalist country that competed with the US for a number of years it think they called it the USSR...and theres also the PRC which is attempting the same...

Just pointing out that its not just Capitalism that competes with the US...

Hey, thats kinda ironic, i just remembered a video with a Russian from England talking about how the EU is becoming another Soviet Union, it was very convincing, if a little far fetched...

by the Us joining I am thinking 50 to 100 years after the EU has sorted everything out. And the rising power of China or India makes it needed.

Maybe have Japan and South Korea join as well.

I really do not see the US Joining the EU, ever.

The EU - Bad, veeerrry bad.

by the Us joining I am thinking 50 to 100 years after the EU has sorted everything out. And the rising power of China or India makes it needed.

Maybe have Japan and South Korea join as well.

I can see it now, the Western Empire vs Orthodox Theocracy vs Islamic Theocracy vs People's Republic of Greater East Asia...WWIII's gonna kick ass, lol....

If NAFTA grew to be what the EU has become We Americans would fuckin Riot in the Streets...

Im surprised that at least the Brits, Franks and Germans havent already...
We Europeans (are we important enough to be capitalised too?) haven't rioted because the EU isn't just the evil monster some people make it out to be (despite its many faults) and we don't have the same uber-nationalistic toes to tread on. Remember - Europe has dozens of countries with, compared to the USA, relatively small populations, markets and economies, which are useful to have opened so that the European economy, when taken as a whole, can act more efficiently.

That and rioting not actually helping anything.

Hey, thats kinda ironic, i just remembered a video with a Russian from England talking about how the EU is becoming another Soviet Union, it was very convincing, if a little far fetched...
Probably more of the latter than the former. How is the EU like the Soviet Union? This smells of the usual polemics that surrounds pro and anti EU debate in Britain.

Probably more of the latter than the former. How is the EU like the Soviet Union? This smells of the usual polemics that surrounds pro and anti EU debate in Britain.

Youd have to see the video, i dont know all the details, having lived in neither of the subjects...

I dont not support the EU(hell the Western Empire is very tantilizing, lol) its just that it surprises me how successful its been, cause it seems to be in against the interests of the more successful countries like the UK...

If NAFTA grew to be what the EU has become We Americans would fuckin Riot in the Streets...

Im surprised that at least the Brits, Franks and Germans havent already...Might be because it was the French and Germans' idea? The Brits are "rioting" as much as they usually do.

Youd have to see the video, i dont know all the details, having lived in neither of the subjects...
Got a link to it? Anyone that knows what the EU is probably won't make the mistake of comparing it to the USSR.

…but right now further extensions would frankly worry me. I don't think they would have any positive effect on its stability.

Could Canada join anyway? Pretty please? We'd be ever so meek.

If NAFTA grew to be what the EU has become We Americans would fuckin Riot in the Streets...

Im surprised that at least the Brits, Franks and Germans havent already...

Because we have no reason to?

A Scottish friend of mine does nothing but complain about the EU. Taxes, prices, crazy islamic fundies...
Of course, he just really likes complaining.

A Scottish friend of mine does nothing but complain about the EU. Taxes, prices, crazy islamic fundies...
Of course, he just really likes complaining.

Well, he is Scottish...

Could Canada join anyway? Pretty please? We'd be ever so meek.
Eventually... >=D

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/ulteriormotives/NorthAtlanticAlliance.png

Eh, it does its bit.

A Scottish friend of mine does nothing but complain about the EU. Taxes, prices, crazy islamic fundies...
Of course, he just really likes complaining.

no true Scotsman would not complain.

didn't the EU declare Haggis a hazardous material??? and out law its transportation across the EU and even with in the UK.

Eventually... >=D

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/ulteriormotives/NorthAtlanticAlliance.png

With China and India rising it may very well be where we westerners are heading.

Well, he is Scottish...
I wish to lodge a formal complaint about this. :p

Moon Knight;13798641']Um, it's not just Europeans.

Never said only... i usually use what people put in location or where they say they're from etc. to decide.

Overall, the edicts of the EU have affected my life in much more positive ways than negative. Sure, it's got it's problems, but what massive bureaucracy doesn't? I vote good.

Well, seeing as I've been called anti-American before for saying that I wouldn't want to go and live in the US, I now assume the label means little more than "not blindly in love with anything and everything USAmerican"...

lol, well not me. I wouldn't want anymore people moving here, especially not ones who don't want to come. And theres plenty I don't like about America, but it seems there are some who want to punish us for things, those are the ones I consider anti-American.

lol, well not me. I wouldn't want anymore people moving here, especially not ones who don't want to come.

Yeah, it's getting pretty crowded. Pretty soon we're going to run out of massive wildernesses and stuff.

I wish to lodge a formal complaint about this. :p

Well, he is Scottish...

Now, now. I'm sure you two can set aside your differences and make fun of the Welsh.

Got a link to it? Anyone that knows what the EU is probably won't make the mistake of comparing it to the USSR.

here it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM2Ql3wOGcU)

took me a bit to find it again, but, there...

BTW, i actually support the EU, as its in the best interest of the Majority of Europeans, but, i just was saying that i dont see how its in the best interest of the Most Successful Nations, like France, Germany, and the UK...

Hell, i think we're probably going to be forced into a new Western Empire anyway to combat the rising East Asian economies...

the EU is terrible it seeks to strip nations of their rights as a Sovereign state

Eventually... >=D

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/ulteriormotives/NorthAtlanticAlliance.png
Echt hübsch, eh.

I think it's a feeble attempt to try to mimic and compete with the USA.

thats kinda how i see it, but minus the 'feeble' part. the eurozone economy is now larger than the US', and the EU population is way larger. the only reason it could be called feeble is because of damn eurosceptics holding it back from federal (or other) political and economic integration.

i don't believe any state is truly sovereign in the 21st century. even so, a loss of some sovereignty is a small price to pay for sustaining current political and economic standards in the face of a changing world order. i also place little value on largely arbitary borders, nationalism, patriotism, tribalism, etc... the notion that being 'British' is more important than being 'European' is of no value to me. bring on the Federal European Union!

no true Scotsman would not complain.

didn't the EU declare Haggis a hazardous material??? and out law its transportation across the EU and even with in the UK.

Er... no it didn't?

the EU is terrible it seeks to strip nations of their rights as a Sovereign state

The EU IS those nations...

It's OK when it just sticks to things like trade and the environment, but I don't like it when it acts like some empire that wants to swallow us whole. I don't think political integration is really necessary, I think it's better if we just keep to ourselves while trading peacefully.

It's OK when it just sticks to things like trade and the environment, but I don't like it when it acts like some empire that wants to swallow us whole. I don't think political integration is really necessary, I think it's better if we just keep to ourselves while trading peacefully.

Let me present you with a little example :

I live in Ireland at the moment. Much like the UK, Ireland has had a massive immigration of Polish in the last 2 years or so, many of them came over here with their own cars.
I was talking to a garda here recently, and he told me that they have a massive problem with Poles, which is getting worse and worse. A Pole commiting a traffic offense here (such as drunk driving, for which they are getting quite a reputation, even in Ireland) can have his license drawn in by Irish police. Quite a regular procedure.
But since there are no European legislations in place, and since Ireland could not yet get any international agreements with Poland on the issue, all this Pole has to do is go back home, claim to have lost his license, and he will get issued with a new license. The garda I was talking to said that in this way, they had picked up the same guy 3 times within 2 months. And they have NO legal way of preventing him to get his license re-issued in Poland again.

I think that common legislation is desperately needed in some areas. But what is also needed is more communcation to the population as to why the new legislation was put in place.

Bad, just because I feel it will inevitablly fail and is thus a waste of time.


That whole no-passport and tarrifs thing is pretty sweet though.

In my opininon, EU is a total failure. No one needs its existence

Or maybe I am too blind.

So far the EU has only improved my life but I'm beginning to become worried about a couple of things, like the lack in transparency, and the growing right wing tendencies in regard to immigration and terrorism. I'm also pretty pissed of about it's seemingly unconditional support of free trade.

In my opininon, EU is a total failure. No one needs its existence

Or maybe I am too blind.

I need its existence, and its continuing existence, to keep my job, be able to marry the man I love and raise my kids in my chosen country of residence.

I need its existence, and its continuing existence, to keep my job, be able to marry the man I love and raise my kids in my chosen country of residence.

So the thing is that is it possible to do all of the things above without EU?

My answer is yes, with the right governments and sensible decisions why not? I am a citizen of a nonmember country and I am able to do them all.

EU is not a savior.

So the thing is that is it possible to do all of the things above without EU?

My answer is yes, with the right governments and sensible decisions why not? I am a citizen of a nonmember country and I am able to do them all.

EU is not a savior.

I think CW lives in an EU country by virtue of the freedom of movement laws, as a citizen in a non-member country you might well not qualify under immigration laws to settle within countries in the EU.

here it is (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM2Ql3wOGcU)

took me a bit to find it again, but, there...That's... nonsense, for lack of a better word. Overly simplistic, and therefore a false comparison.

So the thing is that is it possible to do all of the things above without EU?

My answer is yes, with the right governments and sensible decisions why not? I am a citizen of a nonmember country and I am able to do them all.

EU is not a savior.

Possible, maybe. But only with a lot more money and effort.
I could probably move outside the EU to work. But it would cost me. I would need a permission of residence, to be renewed regularly, a permisson to work, to be reviewed and renewed regularly, my fiance would need the same, we would need permission to get married from 3 different countries, and if would only get even more complicated once we have kids.

At each and every step, two governments will charge us for the burocratic work. And that is without calculating the travel to get documents together, the time spent with officials, etc. etc.

No, it's not a life saver, but it has made things possible that weren't possible before.

Possible, maybe. But only with a lot more money and effort.
I could probably move outside the EU to work. But it would cost me. I would need a permission of residence, to be renewed regularly, a permisson to work, to be reviewed and renewed regularly, my fiance would need the same, we would need permission to get married from 3 different countries, and if would only get even more complicated once we have kids.

At each and every step, two governments will charge us for the burocratic work. And that is without calculating the travel to get documents together, the time spent with officials, etc. etc.

No, it's not a life saver, but it has made things possible that weren't possible before.

wow you make things more complicated then they are. go to Vegas. all you need are photo IDs and bam your married. most countries now must recognize your marriage by treaty.

I favored the EU because it gave greater influence to relatively minor countries, and could potentially counter the Superpowers of China and America. My view on Superpowers is that if we must have them, its best to have at least 3. If you have one, they call the shots, and hold undue influence over the rest of the world (America during the last decade). If there are two, they can end up in a cold war stile rivalry, which polarizes the world and can escalate into a hot nuclear war. A third Superpower will have a vested interest in preventing Global war between the other two, and can act as a moderating influence of sorts. Its almost like a geo-political equivalent of the US Government's system of checks and balances.

Note that this is how the European Union should work, not necissarily how it does work.

wow you make things more complicated then they are. go to Vegas. all you need are photo IDs and bam your married. most countries now must recognize your marriage by treaty.

Not so. If it were, that would be the easiest loophole ever to get a permission of residence virtually everywhere.
Germany, for example, will not recongise such a marriage as basis to give your spouse permission to live in the country with you.
Plus, as I said, neither of us live in the country we are in fact citizens of.

i don't believe any state is truly sovereign in the 21st century. even so, a loss of some sovereignty is a small price to pay for sustaining current political and economic standards in the face of a changing world order. i also place little value on largely arbitary borders, nationalism, patriotism, tribalism, etc... the notion that being 'British' is more important than being 'European' is of no value to me. bring on the Federal European Union!

Pure Metal - you speak the truth!! Sovereignty is a thing of the past in reality, i think the EU increases the power of member states, allowing them to determine the course of the country within the world arena, whilst allowing the nationalism (in the nice sense) and national identity to co-exist (not getting into debate about national identity being diluted anyhoo).

[QUOTE=Cabra West;13800201]Let me present you with a little example :

I live in Ireland at the moment. Much like the UK, Ireland has had a massive immigration of Polish in the last 2 years or so, many of them came over here with their own cars.QUOTE]

Is it just me or is there something funny about Irish complaining about immigration....... (",)

Is it just me or is there something funny about Irish complaining about immigration....... (",)

I don't complain about immigration, on the contrary. What I do complain about is lacking EU cooperation where traffic offenses are concerned, allowing serious offenders back on the road within weeks.

I'm not Irish, btw, I just live here ;)

I like the idea of European cooperation. I don't feel particuarly patriotic for any particular country. (But if I wanted to I could claim up to three.) Which might have something to do about it.

However, I am not too enamoured with the EU as it is. Especially with some of the goings on at Brussels.

Which leaves me slightly torn.

The EU as it is now is.... workable for lack of a better term

It has done and is still doing what it was origonally meant to do which was to promote peace in europe, promotes trade and if also makes eurpoe able to feed itself through the CAP

I would personally love to see greater intergration between EU members, started with a full merging of the EU's constituent countries armed forces

After that I imagine that Europe will have little choice but to merge closer and closer till it effectivly becomes the EU

A fully intergrated Europe will give the EU a massive vested interest in helping the not so well off members of the EU like Poland etc. in terms of economic interests and also humanitarian ones.

The EU could be a massive force with huge influence that, used properly could help many, many people a huge amount....

There IS the language barrier but in time I believe that it will come down with more language learning from a much, MUCH younger age and with encouragement from parents it'll be possible... hopefully

But that's my opinion - also a merged EU would also probably start to fix and need to fix some of the issues that the current one has (like the CAP) .....

but there are arguments aginst this but I think that the good outweight the bad....

1. does it matter if it's good or bad?
2. can it be good at some things, meh at most, and bad at others?
3. who fucking cares?
4. didn't the Europeans vote for this? if so, it's their problem, not mine, if it isn't working.
5. gee, the euro is doing better than the dollar - they must be doing something right...

5. gee, the euro is doing better than the dollar - they must be doing something right...

I think thats more the fact that we've been doing something wrong lately rather than them doing something right...

We get out of Iraq, fix some of the stupid shit we're doing, and the Dollarll get back up...