NationStates Jolt Archive

...gence bill to make the authors of the Patriot Act blush and a whole load of fun about Venezuela, the personality cult, and rule of Hugo Chavez.

The Article is a TL:DR for most, but there's certainly some stuff in here. Using the US as this bizarre bogeyman, disqualifying candidates (overwhelmingly opposition candidates) from the upcoming elections on the pretense they are being investigated for corruption, and seeking to extend his term limits through other means, since he failed to ram through Constitutional changes. Oh, and the comment towards the end, in which people are blaming "the people around Chavez", but not Chavez himself. Strikes me as a developing cult of personality (cues eighties music).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7471817.stm

Oh, and here's the BBC article on the new domestic spying law.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7432895.stm



Anyone still willing to think he's some sort of democratic-socialist hero, out to save the poor of Latin America from the evil Yanquis?

He looks like the drunk uncle. *nod*

He's just pissy because by and large everyone ignores him these days. Still, I've no doubt it'll end up in some sort of bizarre Idi Amin type situation down there.

I give it evens that he ends up invading one of his neighbors before this is all over too.

He's just pissy because by and large everyone ignores him these days. Still, I've no doubt it'll end up in some sort of bizarre Idi Amin type situation down there.

I give it evens that he ends up invading one of his neighbors before this is all over too.

Guyana, mayhaps?

You have to feel sorry for the Venezuelans. Just like the Cubans and the Palestinians, they only get to choose between the Greedy Fucks and the Fanatical Fucks when it comes to leadership.

Guyana, mayhaps?

Who knows. I'm pretty sure he's not all there. Hence his increasing irrationality at being ignored. Which he wanted in the first place.

I would imagine Colombia is probably higher on his list, though, as he is desperate for attention from the US.

Like I said, I only give it evens though, and it's probably a long way off yet. We are only at the election fraud stage at the moment. Got the secret police and death squad stage to go through yet.

...gence bill to make the authors of the Patriot Act blush and a whole load of fun about Venezuela, the personality cult, and rule of Hugo Chavez.

The Article is a TL:DR for most, but there's certainly some stuff in here. Using the US as this bizarre bogeyman, disqualifying candidates (overwhelmingly opposition candidates) from the upcoming elections on the pretense they are being investigated for corruption, and seeking to extend his term limits through other means, since he failed to ram through Constitutional changes. Oh, and the comment towards the end, in which people are blaming "the people around Chavez", but not Chavez himself. Strikes me as a developing cult of personality (cues eighties music).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7471817.stm

Oh, and here's the BBC article on the new domestic spying law.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7432895.stm

Anyone still willing to think he's some sort of democratic-socialist hero, out to save the poor of Latin America from the evil Yanquis?

Many probably dont believe it but most probably dont care just like with Fidel, Raul and Cuba's recent National Assembly election results.

Notice how Chavez always refers to his government as a permanent revolution, never as a government, an administration that ends in a particular year.

If the opposition participates in the upcoming elections with a good number of good candidates left and dosent win a considerable number of seats as they narrowly won against the constitutional dictatorship changes Chavez tried to get away with, than the world will finally know Chavez Socialist government is not democratic.

As you know I can go and on giving exsamples, so this is good enough for now.

I'm not giving up. Ortega accepted a vote going against him, and I'm not willing to discount that option. Or rather, I hope Venezuelans are lucky enough to see it happen.

Chavez is a pretty standard ultra-leftist and populist, he externalizes blame, blaming transnational capitalists and foreign capitalist governments rather than the real problem- the local bourgeois in Venezuela itself. He refuses to confront private property.

Venezuela is pursuing a different aim from that of creating socialism. The aim which the Venezuela is pursuing arose out of the economic troubles of capitalism. Chavez wants to rid Venezuela of the crisis on the basis of private capitalist activity without changing the economic basis, mostly by by reducing the losses incurred through high oil prices and welfare to the poor. Chavez is trying to reduce to a minimum the ruin, the losses caused by the existing economic system. In the former USSR for example, in place of the old destroyed economic basis an entirely different, a new economic basis was created, society in Venezuela however has not been revolutionized.

Even if Chavez partly achieves his aim, i.e., reduce these losses to a minimum and keep costs deflated, they will not destroy the roots of the anarchy which is inherent in the existing capitalist system. They are preserving the economic system which must inevitably lead, and cannot but lead, to anarchy in production.

Thus, at best, it will be a matter, not of the reorganization of society, not of abolishing the old social system which gives rise to anarchy and crises, but of restricting certain of its bad features, restricting certain of its excesses, that is the essence of the welfare state of Chavez. Subjectively, perhaps, Chavez think that he is reorganizing society; that he is a 'revolutionary', objectively, however, he is preserving the present basis of society. That is why, objectively, there will be no reorganization of society. Nor will there be planned economy.

How do I feel about Venezuela politically? Well Chavez may turn out to be more than a purveyor of radical social-bourgeois ideology, but that is unlikely, I don't see him moving to the substance of his socialist rhetoric.

What does this mean for the working class in Venezuela itself? Well Chavez is not repressing generally revolutionary organizations, namely the Communist Party and Red Flag, now this maybe because he feels he can integrate into the United Socialist Party over time, but the Communist Party has refused (although generally supports him) and Red Flag outright opposes him.

The good thing about this is that having at least an outwardly revolutionary President means that genuinely revolutionary Marxist organizations can use the opportunity to gain more mainstream appeal to the working class, which are disillusioned by years of the old right-wing trade unions.

At the moment Chavez is not persecuting the working class (he is taking a welfare softly-softly approach), and he is not persecuting Communists, so for that much I support his Presidency so long as this remains the case until a genuine Revolution can come about. Chavez maybe a reformist, but he is preferable (in political conditions) to right-wing puppet of Washington who in the past repressing the working class and the Communists.

That is my stance.

Oh, and the comment towards the end, in which people are blaming "the people around Chavez", but not Chavez himself. Strikes me as a developing cult of personality (cues eighties music).

Oh, they always blame everyone but him. When farmers group together and ask him for plumbing to bring water to their town he will promise them plumbing, turn to his advisers and say "get to work on those pipes." Then he can refuse funding and totally ignore the problem because its not his fault, its the fault of his advisers. He told them to work on it after all, it was even recorded by the press!

I would imagine Colombia is probably higher on his list, though, as he is desperate for attention from the US.

No way, the government has been obsessed with gaining control of Guyana since the 1960s. They also know that Columbia would be a losing war (and Venezuelans know it too.)

No way, the government has been obsessed with gaining control of Guyana since the 1960s. They also know that Columbia would be a losing war (and Venezuelans know it too.)

That's a "border" dispute that transcends even Chavez, the whole complaint about the Guyanan border. I seriously doubt that Guyana could ever bend to the Venezuelan demands, if for no other reason, that Venezuela demands something like 60% of Guyana's territory. Thus, it would be an area in which Venezuela could move with a relatively high degree of local popular support, and absolute, unbending opposition from their opponent.

Chavez is a pretty standard ultra-leftist and populist, he externalizes blame, blaming transnational capitalists and foreign capitalist governments rather than the real problem- the local bourgeois in Venezuela itself. He refuses to confront private property.

Venezuela is pursuing a different aim from that of creating socialism. The aim which the Venezuela is pursuing arose out of the economic troubles of capitalism. Chavez wants to rid Venezuela of the crisis on the basis of private capitalist activity without changing the economic basis, mostly by by reducing the losses incurred through high oil prices and welfare to the poor. Chavez is trying to reduce to a minimum the ruin, the losses caused by the existing economic system. In the former USSR for example, in place of the old destroyed economic basis an entirely different, a new economic basis was created, society in Venezuela however has not been revolutionized.

Even if Chavez partly achieves his aim, i.e., reduce these losses to a minimum and keep costs deflated, they will not destroy the roots of the anarchy which is inherent in the existing capitalist system. They are preserving the economic system which must inevitably lead, and cannot but lead, to anarchy in production.

Thus, at best, it will be a matter, not of the reorganization of society, not of abolishing the old social system which gives rise to anarchy and crises, but of restricting certain of its bad features, restricting certain of its excesses, that is the essence of the welfare state of Chavez. Subjectively, perhaps, Chavez think that he is reorganizing society; that he is a 'revolutionary', objectively, however, he is preserving the present basis of society. That is why, objectively, there will be no reorganization of society. Nor will there be planned economy.

How do I feel about Venezuela politically? Well Chavez may turn out to be more than a purveyor of radical social-bourgeois ideology, but that is unlikely, I don't see him moving to the substance of his socialist rhetoric.

What does this mean for the working class in Venezuela itself? Well Chavez is not repressing generally revolutionary organizations, namely the Communist Party and Red Flag, now this maybe because he feels he can integrate into the United Socialist Party over time, but the Communist Party has refused (although generally supports him) and Red Flag outright opposes him.

The good thing about this is that having at least an outwardly revolutionary President means that genuinely revolutionary Marxist organizations can use the opportunity to gain more mainstream appeal to the working class, which are disillusioned by years of the old right-wing trade unions.

At the moment Chavez is not persecuting the working class (he is taking a welfare softly-softly approach), and he is not persecuting Communists, so for that much I support his Presidency so long as this remains the case until a genuine Revolution can come about. Chavez maybe a reformist, but he is preferable (in political conditions) to right-wing puppet of Washington who in the past repressing the working class and the Communists.

That is my stance.

Andaras, if I didn't know you better, I'd say that was satire. However, I know you better. :D

the US should intervene.

the US should intervene.

Why on Earth would anyone want that? Hell, that would only make Chavez seem correct. Turn him into a martyr and such.

Why on Earth would anyone want that? Hell, that would only make Chavez seem correct. Turn him into a martyr and such.

Spray it with agent orange, then carpet bomb until there's nothing but soggy craters.
Then we pave the place over and build a massive resort, collapsing the Brazilian economy and starting us on our way to South American domination.

At least, thats MY plan. :cool:

Spray it with agent orange, then carpet bomb until there's nothing but soggy craters.
Then we pave the place over and build a massive resort, collapsing the Brazilian economy and starting us on our way to South American domination.

At least, thats MY plan. :cool:

Shhhhhh! Don't let them hear!

Notice how Chavez always refers to his government as a permanent revolution, never as a government, an administration that ends in a particular year.

Two words: Oliver. Cromwell.

Why on Earth would anyone want that? Hell, that would only make Chavez seem correct. Turn him into a martyr and such.

lets not kill him. hold him in Gitmo and let him come back to power after we get the oil out.

lets not kill him. hold him in Gitmo and let him come back to power after we get the oil out.

Nice to see you're looking forward to another Iraqnam insurgency in Venezuela to kill off our troops and make Cheney and Co. filthy rich with no-bid contracts.

Nice to see you're looking forward to another Iraqnam insurgency in Venezuela to kill off our troops and make Cheney and Co. filthy rich with no-bid contracts.

just because I am a share holder in haliburton is no reason to mistrust my motivations.

Nice to see you're looking forward to another Iraqnam insurgency in Venezuela to kill off our troops and make Cheney and Co. filthy rich with no-bid contracts.

Nobody ever listens to my plans ;-;