NationStates Jolt Archive

Suppose the rapture occurred already, suppose it began around the twenties and the tribulation already occurred. Is this possible? Do you believe it happened ? If it did and you found out it did what would your thoughts be?

Suppose the rapture occurred already, suppose it began around the twenties and the tribulation already occurred. Is this possible? Do you believe it happened ? If it did and you found out it did what would your thoughts be?

I'm not a Christian, but my thought would be: "How can I gain from this?".

My denomination of Christianity does not adhere to the 'Rapture' doctrine as held by Evangelical Christians.

Thus, it cannot have happened.

Suppose the rapture occurred already, suppose it began around the twenties and the tribulation already occurred. Is this possible? Do you believe it happened ? If it did and you found out it did what would your thoughts be?
twenties? what twenties? :confused:

The Rapture is a very new concept, dating from the 1830s. It isn't a part of any faith before that.

well i guess it would help reconcile the idea of armageddon with the idea that jesus will return like a thief in the night.

if not even the devout noticed the rapture, i guess its still gonna be a suprise when judgement day comes.

I'm not a Christian, but my thought would be: "How can I gain from this?".

There's a school of thought, I believe, that suggests exactly that. Dunno what denomination that is. Something about the thousand year reign of Satan being now...

Hmm, my Rapture-o-meter only reads 1.7. A bit high for this time of year, but not unheard of.

There's a school of thought, I believe, that suggests exactly that. Dunno what denomination that is. Something about the thousand year reign of Satan being now...

Every day, for the last few millennia at least, people have found themselves in the "thousand year reign of Satan", and the apocalypse was always happening next week.:p

Hmm, my Rapture-o-meter only reads 1.7. A bit high for this time of year, but not unheard of.

When will you people get it through your thick skulls? Global Rapturing is true, it's an actual phenomenon. Big Sin corporations just pay off theologists with corruptible morals to say otherwise!

Hmm, my Rapture-o-meter only reads 1.7. A bit high for this time of year, but not unheard of.

Those fancy Rapture-o-meters are a total waste of money. I prick my finger and bleed onto the flame of a thrice-blessed candle. If the smoke is blue, the Rapture is near. If the smoke is black, a celebrity marriage is on the rocks.

Those fancy Rapture-o-meters are a total waste of money. I prick my finger and bleed onto the flame of a thrice-blessed candle. If the smoke is blue, the Rapture is near. If the smoke is black, a celebrity marriage is on the rocks.
The smoke on mine is green. What does that mean?

Suppose the rapture occurred already, suppose it began around the twenties and the tribulation already occurred. Is this possible? Do you believe it happened ? If it did and you found out it did what would your thoughts be?

The "End" signifies the descent of the New Jerusalem, and the chaining of Satain for one thousand years. Sin is still incredibly rampant, and the work of the devil is clear. Additionally, the descent of New Jerusalem hasn't happened yet (or, if you can site that it might have happened... when?)

So my answer is that it seems very not possible. Technically I cannot prove that it didn't yet happen, so thats why my answer seems unsure, though I am indeed pretty sure.

The smoke on mine is green. What does that mean?

You're horny.

A creepy thought for Christians.
Surely all the Christians wouldn't be here if the rapture had occurred?

twenties? what twenties? :confused:
I believe s/he means the 1920s.

My denomination of Christianity does not adhere to the 'Rapture' doctrine as held by Evangelical Christians.

Thus, it cannot have happened.

Same goes for me. Even though I don't adhere to a particular denomination.

You're horny.
:eek: :headbang:

Suppose the rapture occurred already, suppose it began around the twenties and the tribulation already occurred. Is this possible?

Considering that Ezekiel 38 and 39 have not yet occured...no!

Do you believe it happened ?

no!

If it did and you found out it did what would your thoughts be?

None...I'd be worshipping the good Lord.

The Rapture is a very new concept, dating from the 1830s. It isn't a part of any faith before that.

Dates back a lot further than that.

Dates back a lot further than that.

Source? It's certainly not in the Bible.

:eek: :headbang:

No, wait, green means you have SARS. And AIDS. And Bird Flu.




Sexually transmitted Bird SARS.







My bad.

But what if it's a translation error? The evangelicals would probably be less enthusiastic about the whole thing if it's actually going to be a rupture of the faithful... talk about a gory way to get into Heaven!

But what if it's a translation error? The evangelicals would probably be less enthusiastic about the whole thing if it's actually going to be a rupture of the faithful... talk about a gory way to get into Heaven!
Reminds me of a joke:

Pope John-Paul II gets to the pearly gates and is met by St. Peter. "Ahh, Johhny-Paul," says Peter, "so good to see you! You've done so much for the faith, is there anything we can do for you?". "Why," replies John-Paul, "I've always wanted to read the original manuscripts that made up the Bible". Peter beckons him to a room off of the main entrance to Heaven, where inside lie a number of fragile manuscripts. "Take your time, I'll be out here if you need me", says Peter, leaving the Pope to have a read. Five minutes later he hears a scream from inside the room. "What's the matter!?" gasps Peter as he runs inside. Mournfully, John-Paul looks up from the pages, "the word was 'celebrate'".

:p

Source? It's certainly not in the Bible.

You are right that the Bible does not come out and say it but the clues are there.

You are right that the Bible does not come out and say it but the clues are there.

Once again, source? Revelation is pretty clear that there isn't anything of the sort.

You are right that the Bible does not come out and say it but the clues are there.

The Bible also doesn't solve the problem of linear-timeline revealed truth, most especially what happened to all the people who lived and died before Christ's salvation had been delivered to the world. The Catholics said that when Jesus was killed he went into Hell and saved all the souls, which solves the problem somewhat but has no biblical basis.

And that also doesn't answer the question of places on the earth these days which have limited or no access to Christianity, even more so in the past since the death of Christ.

That is a scary thought, perhaps, but since all my faith is already laid up in Jesus, I don't see any reason to worry myself over that now.

As a Catholic Christian, I don't believe that the rapture will occur in the first place. It's a new-fangled belief, and isn't something the original Christians believed.

As a Catholic Christian, I don't believe that the rapture will occur in the first place. It's a new-fangled belief, and isn't something the original Christians believed.

Except that Jesus himself said he would come back like a thief.

Except that Jesus himself said he would come back like a thief.
Jesus is going to steal crap from us?:eek:

Except that Jesus himself said he would come back like a thief.

Is that like claiming christianity is a religion of peace when Jesus said he came not to bring peace, but the sword?

Except that Jesus himself said he would come back like a thief.
That's hardly a clear outline of the Rapture a la Tim LaHaye.

Jesus is going to steal crap from us?:eek:

Hell no, he's got class, only takes the good stuff.

That's hardly a clear outline of the Rapture a la Tim LaHaye.

It was a fine serious but I was actually referring to Jesus and not Tim LaHaye.

well i guess it would help reconcile the idea of armageddon with the idea that jesus will return like a thief in the night.

if not even the devout noticed the rapture, i guess its still gonna be a suprise when judgement day comes.

Maybe that's where Amelia Earhart went.

Maybe that's where Amelia Earhart went.

So... Amelia Earhart was the only follower of Christ?

Mmm. Yeah. Makes sense.

Surely all the Christians wouldn't be here if the rapture had occurred?


I believe s/he means the 1920s.

I read that some people become beleivers after the rapture which is why so many Christians get hunted and tortured and targeted by the anti-christ and his minions afterward.

I read that some people become beleivers after the rapture which is why so many Christians get hunted and tortured and targeted by the anti-christ and his minions afterward.

That's the way Revelation plays out as well.

It was a fine serious but I was actually referring to Jesus and not Tim LaHaye.
Well, the Biblical Jesus never talks about the Rapture at all. The modern-day conception of the Rapture is very close to LaHaye's vision, which itself is a rather strained interpretation of the Revelation.

Well, the Biblical Jesus never talks about the Rapture at all. The modern-day conception of the Rapture is very close to LaHaye's vision, which itself is a rather strained interpretation of the Revelation.

Except for the fact that the Raptue is not based off the book of Revelation :rolleyes:

That's the way Revelation plays out as well.

Except Revelation doesn't have anything remotely approaching the Rapture.

Except for the fact that the Raptue is not based off the book of Revelation :rolleyes:

So what is it based on?

Except for the fact that the Raptue is not based off the book of Revelation :rolleyes:
Not all of it, no. But talk of the events before during and after the Rapture are certainly drawn from the Revelation.

So what is it based on?
Along with the Revelation, a few scattered verses from the NT; stuff in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, Corinthians, a bit of John and some other books, IIRC.

So what is it based on?

A mixture of "prophecy" from Daniel, the Psalms and weird shit Jesus said. There's also the scripture in the NT in one of Paul's wriitings that talks about people being "snatched up" that they focus on.

Except Revelations doesn't have anything remotely approaching the Rapture.

Acually...that's not 100% true either.

Rev. 3:10--I will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world.

Along with the Revelation, a few scattered verses from the NT; stuff in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, Corinthians, a bit of John and some other books, IIRC.

Daniel.

Not all of it, no. But talk of the events before during and after the Rapture are certainly drawn from the Revelation.

Actually...before the rapture is based off of Ezekiel and various other books of the Good Book. The rest is true though but is inconsequential to this as we are talking about the rapture and not the Tribulation.

Along with the Revelation, a few scattered verses from the NT; stuff in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, Corinthians, a bit of John and some other books, IIRC.

Yep.

Acually...that's not 100% true either.

Rev. 3:10--I will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world.

Now go and find the part where all the Christians end up in the Lake of Fire because the only people God lets into heaven are 144,000 virgin Jewish males. Also, what you quoted isn't really the rapture.

The Rapture occurred in 1995, but God decided only to take Madalyn Murray O'Hair (He's such a joker!)

Now go and find the part where all the Christians end up in the Lake of Fire because the only people God lets into heaven are 144,000 virgin Jewish males. Also, what you quoted isn't really the rapture.

Your opinion.

Your opinion.

Who the fuck else's opinion would it be?

Now go and find the part where all the Christians end up in the Lake of Fire because the only people God lets into heaven are 144,000 virgin Jewish males. Also, what you quoted isn't really the rapture.
It's all so interpretive.

The 'fact' of the Rapture is gleaned from a few scattered verses, and only accepted by a certain section of the Christian faith. Your not going to get anywhere debating Scripture with an 'Rapturist'.

Suppose the rapture occurred already, suppose it began around the twenties and the tribulation already occurred. Is this possible? Do you believe it happened ? If it did and you found out it did what would your thoughts be?
Godamm...me, I guess.

Seriously, I don't believe in the Rapture in the evangelical sense, and so would be skeptical of any claims it has already occurred.

My denomination of Christianity does not adhere to the 'Rapture' doctrine as held by Evangelical Christians.

Thus, it cannot have happened.That's not "true", it would be an opinion based on "adherence".
Delusion a different direction is still a delusion.

The smoke on mine is green. What does that mean?

Consult a physician. Blood burning green is a sign of a rare but serious side effect.

You know, I'm a big fan of the phrase "I reject your reality and substitute mine own.".

Which is why, should the Rapture ever happen to Christians only, leaving behind good people that aren't Christians, I would become the god of the new world: If a god that will do this, leave behind good people because they didn't say his name, can be a god, so can I. I would proceed to change reality to meet my divine criteria, of course.

I further reject the notion that one has to worship me to fall in my good graces. Which is why I'd deserve to be the god of the new world.

Consult a physician. Blood burning green is a sign of a rare but serious side effect.

Do not use Thrice-Blessed Candle if you are consulting the Magic 8-ball or other prognosticative devices. Ask your doctor about possible interactions with mood rings or lucky pennies.

Consult a physician. Blood burning green is a sign of a rare but serious side effect.

It's called Pon Farr. *nod*

It's called Pon Farr. *nod*

Apparently I was right the first time. Congratulations, you don't have sexually transmitted Bird SARS after all. But careful with that Pon Farr thing or you might end up with it anyways.

Incidentally, you should stay away from this girl Michelle...

Your opinion.

Not really. Revelation 14:3 (for example) describes the population of heaven, in terms of those 'redeemed from earth'.

You can argue that the 144,000 is a metaphor, or one of those examples where a number means something different because of a turn of phrase... but, if so - you are arguing that the Revelation text can be interpreted non-literally.

So - why interpret some of the endtims stuff as literal, but argue for other parts being less so? Surely it's either true, or it ain't... cherry picking prophecy seems a little hypocritical... and a little like wishful thinking.

But - regardless - we even know who the 144,000 ARE. They are those 'sealed' from the twelve tribes of Israel. Which means, if you aren't a Jew, you aren't one of the 144,000, and so - you won't be in the KIngdom of Heaven.

Revelation 14 is clear on the matter. The 144,00 is not a metaphor... they are 12,000 from 'each tribe of Israel'. Each " having his Father's name written in their foreheads", "...which were redeemed from the earth", "...These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins", "And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God".

This 144,000 are arguably the entire population of heaven. Revelation 20 says that the rest of "the dead... lived not again until the thousand years were finished". Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 tell us that the inhabitants of heaven are to be found before the throne, singing. SO we know WHO is supposed to be there, what they are supposed to be doing... and we can be sure there are no others in heaven for at least a thousand years.

That's not 'opinion'. That's called 'actually reading the scripture', and not just believing what feels comfortable.

*snip*

Please point to where I am cherry picking please? Oh wait...I haven't.

Either way i cant think of how i would profit, nor how i would lose...

So i dont care, lol

But, i stopped considering myself Christian years ago...

Please point to where I am cherry picking please? Oh wait...I haven't.

Simple question - does revelation tell us who is in heaven BEFORE that whole 'judgement of the dead' bit. ANd - are they 144,000 Jewish virgins who have never told a lie.

If you think you can answer 'no' to either of those questions, you either haven't actually read your Bible (not that unusual among people that call themselves 'christians', in my experience), or you're cherrypicking.

But - regardless - we even know who the 144,000 ARE. They are those 'sealed' from the twelve tribes of Israel. Which means, if you aren't a Jew, you aren't one of the 144,000, and so - you won't be in the KIngdom of Heaven.

I thought Jews constituted at most two out of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, the other ten tribes having been scattered to unknown parts. That would mean that only 12,000 to 24,000 Jews would be qualified, while the remaining 120,000 to 132,000 would be taken from other nations.

I thought Jews constituted at most two out of the Twelve Tribes of Israel, the other ten tribes having been scattered to unknown parts. That would mean that only 12,000 to 24,000 Jews would be qualified, while the remaining 120,000 to 132,000 would be taken from other nations.

It doesn't matter. If I am to live in a reality in which the vast majority of Earth's GOOD population gets hellfire, I shall refuse and substitute mine own. Everyone, follow me. I'm going to create your utopia! To quote Agent Smith, this is MY world. ;)

Here is an even scarier thought.

The blueprint for fascist dictatorships runs something like this: There is only one true ruler, you must obey the commands of him and anyone who speaks in his name or else you are sent away where nobody ever sees you again.

Thats also the blueprint for the beliefs behind christianity and almost every other monotheistic religion.

Here is an even scarier thought.

The blueprint for fascist dictatorships runs something like this: There is only one true ruler, you must obey the commands of him and anyone who speaks in his name or else you are sent away where nobody ever sees you again.

Thats also the blueprint for the beliefs behind christianity and almost every other monotheistic religion.

I shouldn't have to live in a world in which all the good points are terrible ones.

Suppose I don't believe in the rapture?

Surely all the Christians wouldn't be here if the rapture had occurred?

All the good Christians would not be here anymore then, yes. All the bad ones would still be here.

So.. are there any good ones left ?

The Rapture is a very new concept, dating from the 1830s. It isn't a part of any faith before that.

it was not called a rapture until then but the concept was there...unless you think that the book of revelation was written in the 1830's???

...And you get in your car and you drive real far
And you drive all night and then you see a light
And it comes right down and lands on the ground
And out comes a man from Mars
And you try to run but he's got a gun
And he shoots you dead and he eats your head
And then you're in the man from Mars
You go out at night, eatin' cars
You eat Cadillacs, Lincolns too
Mercuries and Subarus
And you don't stop, you keep on eatin' cars
Then, when there's no more cars
You go out at night and eat up bars where the people meet
Face to face, dance cheek to cheek
One to one, man to man
Dance toe to toe
Don't move too slow, 'cause the man from Mars
Is through with cars, he's eatin' bars
Yeah, wall to wall, door to door, hall to hall
He's gonna eat 'em all
Rapture, be pure

it was not called a rapture until then but the concept was there...unless you think that the book of revelation was written in the 1830's???

yes but the rapture isnt a big feature of the BoR is it? its more a supposition taken from bits and pieces of various prophecies contained in various books of the bible and bent to mean that things will happen in a certain way. until someone connected those dots "the rapture" wasnt a solid concept.

Suppose the rapture occurred already, suppose it began around the twenties and the tribulation already occurred. Is this possible? Do you believe it happened ? If it did and you found out it did what would your thoughts be?

It didn't happen in the 20's. It started in the 40's. And it wasn't all in one day. That's what those alien abductions were all about. And its what the anal probes are all about too. Those who like it get thrown back.

...
This 144,000 are arguably the entire population of heaven.
Only from a very bad argument...

...Revelation 20 says that the rest of "the dead... lived not again until the thousand years were finished". Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 tell us that the inhabitants of heaven are to be found before the throne, singing. SO we know WHO is supposed to be there, what they are supposed to be doing... and we can be sure there are no others in heaven for at least a thousand years.

That's not 'opinion'. That's called 'actually reading the scripture', and not just believing what feels comfortable.

Clearly, just reading the 'rest' of chapter seven answers the question of who will be in Heaven, and it's not only the 144 thousand Jews.

Revelation 7:9-17

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

"Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.

For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Clearly then, a numberless multitude of gentile from every nation and every language will be before the throne of God, having been washed in the blood of the lamb they become worthy.

Jesus, likewise, said much the same himself when he said there will be gentiles from every corner of the earth dining with the prophets, even when many of the son of Abraham will not...

Matthew 8:10-13
When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, "Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." And to the centurion Jesus said, "Go; let it be done for you as you have believed."(

Only from a very bad argument...



Clearly, just reading the 'rest' of chapter seven answers the question of who will be in Heaven, and it's not only the 144 thousand Jews.

Revelation 7:9-17

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

"Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.

For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Clearly then, a numberless multitude of gentile from every nation and every language will be before the throne of God, having been washed in the blood of the lamb they become worthy.

Jesus, likewise, said much the same himself when he said there will be gentiles from every corner of the earth dining with the prophets, even when many of the son of Abraham will not...

Matthew 8:10-13
When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, "Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." And to the centurion Jesus said, "Go; let it be done for you as you have believed."(

We have a winner!

Simple question - does revelation tell us who is in heaven BEFORE that whole 'judgement of the dead' bit. ANd - are they 144,000 Jewish virgins who have never told a lie.

You really really don't get it do you?

If you think you can answer 'no' to either of those questions, you either haven't actually read your Bible (not that unusual among people that call themselves 'christians', in my experience), or you're cherrypicking.

You never actually asked a question Gni. I have read the Bible, both the old and the new, and have read a few commentaries. And I have read several different translations of the Bible as well. The only cherrypicking I am seeing is from you who can't even finish off the rest of the chapter that proves you thoroughly wrong about the population of heaven.

Only from a very bad argument...



Clearly, just reading the 'rest' of chapter seven answers the question of who will be in Heaven, and it's not only the 144 thousand Jews.

Revelation 7:9-17

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Well, the good news, I guess - is that you don't believe in Rapture. Which is good news, because it reconciles so poorly with the rest of the scripture.

Thus, you can skip over the references to jumping to later eventss ("after this") and can ignore the fact that the 'great multitude' are those 'saved' during the 'great tribulation'.

Which leaves us with the obvious answer. According to the writer of Revelation, 144,000 was a "multitude that no one could number", and the 12 tribes are assumed to have disseminated throughout the whole world. Hardly a 'relvelation'.

Well, the good news, I guess - is that you don't believe in Rapture. Which is good news, because it reconciles so poorly with the rest of the scripture.

From who's perspective? For me, it does.

Thus, you can skip over the references to jumping to later eventss ("after this") and can ignore the fact that the 'great multitude' are those 'saved' during the 'great tribulation'.

Which takes place after the desecration of the new Jewish Temple by the Anti-Christ. And no that does not compute with the rest of the scripture considering what the Fifth Seal judment says aout martyers.

Which leaves us with the obvious answer. According to the writer of Revelation, 144,000 was a "multitude that no one could number", and the 12 tribes are assumed to have disseminated throughout the whole world. Hardly a 'relvelation'.

Uh.....people can count to 144,000 :rolleyes:

Well, the good news, I guess - is that you don't believe in Rapture. Which is good news, because it reconciles so poorly with the rest of the scripture.

Thus, you can skip over the references to jumping to later eventss ("after this") and can ignore the fact that the 'great multitude' are those 'saved' during the 'great tribulation'.

Which leaves us with the obvious answer. According to the writer of Revelation, 144,000 was a "multitude that no one could number", and the 12 tribes are assumed to have disseminated throughout the whole world. Hardly a 'relvelation'.

Whether or not I believe in ‘the Rapture’ is as near to being entirely inconsequential to the topic as it can be. Modern Rapture theology consists of many different beliefs, I’m not sure which you are thinking of when you say I must not believe in it. One church teaches one interpretation of end times and the sequence of events that will take place, another church teaches a different interpretation of the sequence of events that will take place, and it all goes back as long as the church has existed.

Hippolytus of Rome (c.170-c.236), wrote prophetically about the end times…

32
But many who are hearers of the divine Scriptures, and have them in their hand, and keep them in mind with understanding, will escape his imposture. For they will see clearly through his insidious appearance and his deceitful imposture, and will flee from his hands, and betake themselves to the mountains, and hide themselves in the caves of the earth; and they will seek after the Friend of man with tears and a contrite heart; and He will deliver them out of his toils, and with His right hand He will save those from his snares who in a worthy and righteous manner make their supplication to Him.

And then later he points out that the churches will be empty, i.e., all of the believers will be gone…

34
And the churches, too, will wail with a mighty lamentation, because neither oblation nor incense is attended to, nor a service acceptable to God; but the sanctuaries of the churches will become like a garden-watcher's hut, and the holy body and blood of Christ will not be shown in those days. The public service of God shall be extinguished, psalmody shall cease, the reading of the Scriptures shall not be heard; but for men there shall be darkness, and lamentation on lamentation, and woe on woe. At that time silver and gold shall be cast out in the streets, and none shall gather them; but all things shall be held an offence. For all shall be eager to escape and to hide themselves, and they shall not be able anywhere to find concealment from the woes of the adversary; but as they carry his mark about them, they shall be readily recognised and declared to be his. Without there shall be fear, and within trembling, both by night and by day. In the street and in the houses there shall be the dead; in the streets and in the houses there shall be hunger and thirst; in the streets there shall be tumults, and in the houses lamentations. And beauty of countenance shall be withered, for their forms shall be like those of the dead; and the beauty of women shall fade, and the desire of all men shall vanish.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0504.htm

Clearly the concept of what we now call ‘The Rapture,’ in regards to the Apocalypse, goes back to very early times. Apocalyptic prophesy is a fundamental part of Christian theology (all denominations).

IMO; All persons and especially Christians do well to constantly regard their own imminent end of life, the complete cessation of the here and now, because either way it eventually comes true for everyone. Either the Apocalypse occurs and everyone is affected at once, or our own individual deaths occur and our personal reckoning is brought down on us, the result is the same on a singular level in either case. Being prepared for death and living each day like it might be your last and knowing that the only hope for us is in Jesus Christ alone, is a preeminent lesson of the gospels. It is good that Christians are emotionally prepared to leave immediately but live and preach and plan like the church will live and preach for another thousand years.

As to the 144 thousand, Corneliu 2 already pointed out that they can't be the countless multitude spoken of later, they were already clearly counted and audited earlier in the same chapter... obviously that was a bad deduction on your part to suggest they might be the same group.

My denomination of Christianity does not adhere to the 'Rapture' doctrine as held by Evangelical Christians.

Thus, it cannot have happened.

Haha, lol, same, it was a fear-factor thing (like Purgatory by the Catholics in the Middle Ages) used to scare people into obeying.
Why would God save certain people and leave others behind? If he did then he is a bit of a silly man and i'd stop worshipping him. But, seeing as he hasn't, i won't.

Clearly the concept of what we now call ‘The Rapture,’ in regards to the Apocalypse, goes back to very early times.
I don't see any particular similarity between Hippolytus saying the Christians will take to the hills or hide in caves, and this "Rapture" story whcih is not traceable before the 19th century. CLEARLY this "Rapture" concept is a recent innovation.

There's a school of thought, I believe, that suggests exactly that. Dunno what denomination that is. Something about the thousand year reign of Satan being now...


Jehovah's witnesses believe something akin to that.


also, if the rapture happened and you are here, then you are fucked. that is all

I don't see any particular similarity between Hippolytus saying the Christians will take to the hills or hide in caves, and this "Rapture" story whcih is not traceable before the 19th century. CLEARLY this "Rapture" concept is a recent innovation.

Is it, for serious.

As to the 144 thousand, Corneliu 2 already pointed out that they can't be the countless multitude spoken of later, they were already clearly counted and audited earlier in the same chapter... obviously that was a bad deduction on your part to suggest they might be the same group.
Lol, the idea ONLY 144000 will be saved is an example of Fundamentalists taking stuff too literally. In biblical times that's just a metaphor for a very lot of people, like when Jesus said "I'll forgive you 70 x 70 times", he just meant he'd forgive you infinitely.
When people try to make sense of Revelation and then Dogmatise it, things go awry. Even the Church Fathers were quite confused and found it was only a guideline as to what will happen, it is perhaps more of an abstract text than the start of Genesis. A good way of thinking of it (imo) is that John was in Heaven, which exists out of time, and was in the centre of a tornado where events were flying past him (hence how he saw Satan being cast out of Heaven which presumably happened before/during Genesis).

As to the 144 thousand, Corneliu 2 already pointed out that they can't be the countless multitude spoken of later, they were already clearly counted and audited earlier in the same chapter... obviously that was a bad deduction on your part to suggest they might be the same group.

They could fill books with what Corneliu doesn't understand about theology. In fact, they have - and a number of them are considered canonical to most christian schools of thought.

Bible scholars agree that certain numbers carry certain implications not necessarily inherent in their numerical value. 40 is one such number, a thousand is another. 144,000 may be literal or it may be metaphor - I suppose that depends on your perspective. If you consider the Revelation text to be 'true' (literally), then you have to accept the 144,000. On the other hand, if you relate to Revelation as being a symbolic text, you can easily read 144,000 as a 'multitude without number'. And that turn of phrase is somewhere between a symbol, and meaningless anyway. It's scriptural denomination is roughly readable as 'a lot'.

I have no real patience for rapture theology. It's somewhere between 'barely scriptural' and 'not scriptural at all', and is basically 'tradition' for those who pretend they have none.

They could fill books with what Corneliu doesn't understand about theology. In fact, they have - and a number of them are considered canonical to most christian schools of thought.

Haha, excellent! Great comeback.

I have no real patience for rapture theology. It's somewhere between 'barely scriptural' and 'not scriptural at all', and is basically 'tradition' for those who pretend they have none.

Truth.

The smoke on mine is green. What does that mean?

You're horny.

You should probably see a doc-

Consult a physician. Blood burning green is a sign of a rare but serious side effect.

A pox on your house, Copiosa Scotia!

And that also doesn't answer the question of places on the earth these days which have limited or no access to Christianity, even more so in the past since the death of Christ.

There's an implication in at least one verse that people are judged according to what they know.

It doesn't matter. If I am to live in a reality in which the vast majority of Earth's GOOD population gets hellfire, I shall refuse and substitute mine own. Everyone, follow me. I'm going to create your utopia! To quote Agent Smith, this is MY world. ;)

Speaking from a strictly Evangelical perspective here Rapture isn't last call. It's more like God taking his loyal servants outta the game moments before shit hits the fan. People are still free to become Christians, but they'll have to go through the whole Anti-Christ ruling thing. But Salvation is never denied.

Unless of course you (willingly) take the Mark of the Beast, thus forming an iron-clad contract with the devil which can never ever be broken. On the plus side, you are then able to buy and sell on the legitimate market. You'll have to go illicit if you want to keep your soul.

You'll have to go illicit if you want to keep your soul.

Too late, I sold my Soul for a Quarter, i was really thirsty, couldnt afford a coke, and i had nothing else to sell...

Does that mean i have to haunt Jeremy for an eternity when i die?:eek:

Too late, I sold my Soul for a Quarter, i was really thirsty, couldnt afford a coke, and i had nothing else to sell...

Does that mean i have to haunt Jeremy for an eternity when i die?:eek:

Maybe if you're lucky!

They could fill books with what Corneliu doesn't understand about theology. In fact, they have - and a number of them are considered canonical to most christian schools of thought.

That's the best you can do?

144,000 may be literal or it may be metaphor - I suppose that depends on your perspective. If you consider the Revelation text to be 'true' (literally), then you have to accept the 144,000.

I accept that 144,000 will be sealed during the Tribulation.

On the other hand, if you relate to Revelation as being a symbolic text, you can easily read 144,000 as a 'multitude without number'.

Not really. That's a stretch to make at best.

I have no real patience for rapture theology. It's somewhere between 'barely scriptural' and 'not scriptural at all', and is basically 'tradition' for those who pretend they have none.

Nice tolerance level. I do not go around insulting your beliefs so what gives you the authority to insult mine?

Speaking from a strictly Evangelical perspective here Rapture isn't last call. It's more like God taking his loyal servants outta the game moments before shit hits the fan. People are still free to become Christians, but they'll have to go through the whole Anti-Christ ruling thing. But Salvation is never denied.

100% correct.

Unless of course you (willingly) take the Mark of the Beast, thus forming an iron-clad contract with the devil which can never ever be broken. On the plus side, you are then able to buy and sell on the legitimate market. You'll have to go illicit if you want to keep your soul.

So very true.

To the OP:

1) The word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible.

2) The Bible doesn't specify when the followers of Christ will be taken up in reference to the Tribulation. There are equally compelling speculative arguments for before, during, and after.

3) Regardless of which it is, you are responsible for yourself and what you do.

4) You have no control over when it happens, so there's no sense worrying about it. The year, month, day, hour, and second was appointed before the beginning of time and there's not one thing anyone can do to change that. Just let God do His thing - I'm willing to wager He knows what He's doing.

I'm willing to wager He knows what He's doing.

Ill take that bet!
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b42/Segomo2/1183977445799ob9.jpg

I love that one! Its amazing what you can do with physics when you take the time and effort to do something cool with it. Ive been meaning to try that one.

Except that Jesus himself said he would come back like a thief.A republican "president"?

Jesus is going to steal crap from us?:eek:
Nah, he's just gonna shift his hand 'round in your pocket a bunch. Front and back. He'll leave with something, alright ......

That's not 'opinion'. That's called 'actually reading the scripture', and not just believing what feels comfortable.
:eek:
Rebel!
Liberal!
Blasphemer!

I shouldn't have to live in a world in which all the good points are terrible ones.
:(

Suppose I don't believe in the rapture?
...what if it believes in you?

...And you get in your car and you drive real far
And you drive all night and then you see a light
And it comes right down and lands on the ground
And out comes a man from Mars
And you try to run but he's got a gun
And he shoots you dead and he eats your head
And then you're in the man from Mars
You go out at night, eatin' cars
You eat Cadillacs, Lincolns too
Mercuries and Subarus
And you don't stop, you keep on eatin' cars
Then, when there's no more cars
You go out at night and eat up bars where the people meet
Face to face, dance cheek to cheek
One to one, man to man
Dance toe to toe
Don't move too slow, 'cause the man from Mars
Is through with cars, he's eatin' bars
Yeah, wall to wall, door to door, hall to hall
He's gonna eat 'em all
Rapture, be pure

http://www.geocities.com/zoidberg_fan/episodes/images/bee.gif
Bzzzz. :rolleyes:

Hippolytus saying the Christians will take to the hills or hide in cavesHad to be some reason for that. Wish a few of them still would, to get them away from the voting booths.

That's the best you can do?


I don't know what you mean - it's not intended to be an insult, it's simple truth.

You arn't that well read on theology - even on Christian theology.

Or, perhaps you would argue yourself to be an expert theologist?


I accept that 144,000 will be sealed during the Tribulation.


You are welcome to accept that Jesus was made out of buckets and spanners, if you wish. I - on the other hand - will base my understanding of scripture -ON scripture... not on some collection of recent comfortable traditions.

Your statement - "144,000 will be sealed during the Tribulation" - bears the same resemblence to scriptural Christianity, that shitting a mailbox bears to the Encycopedia Brittanica. That is - both may contain letters.


Not really. That's a stretch to make at best.


No, not really - and that's why I say you are a novice theologist, at best.


Nice tolerance level. I do not go around insulting your beliefs so what gives you the authority to insult mine?

How is that an insult? 'Rapture' is not scriptural, it is 'tradition', only. Catholics admit to their 'traditions'. Other christian denominations allow traditions, but don't admit to them as such... like 'Rapture' theology.

I don't have any 'beliefs'. You don't insult mine, because you can't.

On the other hand, I've read the material your 'beliefs' are supposed to be based on, and I've read a whole load of the commentary that has followed that material - and I don't see any reason to be especially 'tolerant' of your allegedly 'christian' beliefs, if they are nothing more than wishful thinking.

:(

It's a line from 8-bit theater. He has a good point, but that means the world is absurd. ;)

I don't know what you mean - it's not intended to be an insult, it's simple truth.

Truth is subjective and Bible Prophecy is not something that seems to be talked about much among the various religions. As a Methodist, its not talked about in my church at all.

You arn't that well read on theology - even on Christian theology.

:rolleyes:

You realize that the Christian Theology stretches across so many lines right? There is no one set of theology.

Or, perhaps you would argue yourself to be an expert theologist?

That I know I am not. Neither are you.

You are welcome to accept that Jesus was made out of buckets and spanners, if you wish. I - on the other hand - will base my understanding of scripture -ON scripture... not on some collection of recent comfortable traditions.

I base my opinions of the scripture, ON scripture. Not on some collection of recent comfortable traditions.

Your statement - "144,000 will be sealed during the Tribulation" - bears the same resemblence to scriptural Christianity, that shitting a mailbox bears to the Encycopedia Brittanica. That is - both may contain letters.

Believe what you will. I will stick to what I have been studying since it is based on scripture.

No, not really - and that's why I say you are a novice theologist, at best.

So we agree that what you stated was a stretch at best and flat out wrong. Glad we agree.

How is that an insult? 'Rapture' is not scriptural, it is 'tradition', only.

Actually...it is scripture. We can put pieces together and know this. If one reads the Bible, we see two things. That 1) Jesus will come like a thief in the night and 2) At his Glorious Appearing, all eyes will see his return. These are two very distinct events. Not just one. So why is there two events of Jesus coming but in one, all eyes will see him and the other not?

Catholics admit to their 'traditions'. Other christian denominations allow traditions, but don't admit to them as such... like 'Rapture' theology.

Which they should.

I don't have any 'beliefs'. You don't insult mine, because you can't.

I can insult what you do believe in but I am not whereas you are using stretches to try to debunk what I am saying.

On the other hand, I've read the material your 'beliefs' are supposed to be based on, and I've read a whole load of the commentary that has followed that material - and I don't see any reason to be especially 'tolerant' of your allegedly 'christian' beliefs, if they are nothing more than wishful thinking.

As I said, just continue to insult me if that is what you want. You are forgiven.

Truth is subjective...


An interesting argument for you to make.


...and Bible Prophecy is not something that seems to be talked about much among the various religions. As a Methodist, its not talked about in my church at all.


One of my closest friends is a Methodist, and his church discusses biblical prophecy. It sounds like a failing in your own church, rather than something endemic to the whole movement.


:rolleyes:


Oh, you got me there. Emoticon'd to death.


You realize that the Christian Theology stretches across so many lines right? There is no one set of theology.


Yes.


That I know I am not. Neither are you.


Half right. You're certainly not.


I base my opinions of the scripture, ON scripture. Not on some collection of recent comfortable traditions.


Wrong. You accept rapture - thus you DON'T base your opinions on scripture, and DO base them on some collection of recent comfortable traditions.

You were close, though.


Believe what you will. I will stick to what I have been studying since it is based on scripture.


Like rapture? If that qualifies as 'based on scripture' for you, then we have no common language here.


So we agree that what you stated was a stretch at best and flat out wrong. Glad we agree.


No, we don't. And you would be in conflict with almost all biblical scholars as well. That doesn't automatically make you wrong, of course. You could be the ONLY eprson that is right.

But, you're not.


Actually...it is scripture. We can put pieces together and know this. If one reads the Bible, we see two things. That 1) Jesus will come like a thief in the night and 2) At his Glorious Appearing, all eyes will see his return. These are two very distinct events. Not just one. So why is there two events of Jesus coming but in one, all eyes will see him and the other not?


You clearly fail to understand the difference between scripture and extrapolation.

The only way YOU can reconcile the apparent conflicts in prophecy are by claiming two events. That's okay - that's your failing, though... and not something present in the text.

There are much easier (and more logical) ways to explain that 'contradiction' than inventing some feelgood rapture event.


Which they should.


So, why don't you?


I can insult what you do believe in but I am not whereas you are using stretches to try to debunk what I am saying.


Let me try it again. Apparently, that was too complex.

You can't insult 'what I believe', because I don't 'believe' anything. It's not a choice on your part.

I don't need to 'stretch to debunk what you are saying'. What you are saying IS bunk. I don't have to attack a made-up theology less than two centuries old.


As I said, just continue to insult me if that is what you want. You are forgiven.

I haven't insulted you. Your pretence at virtue falls flat on the simple fact that you are pretending you can forgive someone for something that didn't happen.

Rapture is wishful thinking. That's not a insult, unless you consider it is also an insult when I tell you that it is sunny, today.

...
I don't need to 'stretch to debunk what you are saying'. What you are saying IS bunk. I don't have to attack a made-up theology less than two centuries old.
...

Only two centuries old? You may think yourself a theologian, but clearly you are no Church Historian. Pseudo-Ephraem, an early Syriac Christian writer (Pseudo means impostor, yes, I know, but even the impostor had to write it more than two centuries ago so it still works as proof to debunk your false claim), wrote “On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World,” (ca., forth to seventh century, depending on who wrote it and that depends on who you ask) is preserved in four Latin manuscripts...

But in it, it says;
“All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.”

Clearly this is pre-nineteenth century ‘Rapture’ theology.

More info about Rapture 'history' here: http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj13e.pdf
And more info about Ephraem here: http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol1No2/HV1N2Griffith.html

As to all the demeaning tone and pompous posturing you are using in your posts against Corneliu 2, I've snipped it from the post quote above, it looks more like flaming than it does debate material to me. You saying it is not intended as insults does not make it not insulting.

As to all the demeaning tone and pompous posturing you are using in your posts...

The day we approach this subject on a level playing field is the day you have a leg to stand on. You and your preachy ilk put my tone to shame.

Indeed, you might want to re-read the pile of hectoring wank that this is a clipped response to, before you mount your high horse too thoroughly.

Lets flame about flaming, shall we? :p

It's a line from 8-bit theater. He has a good point, but that means the world is absurd. ;)
It's painful 'cuz it's true. ;)

Suppose the rapture occurred already, suppose it began around the twenties and the tribulation already occurred. Is this possible? Do you believe it happened ? If it did and you found out it did what would your thoughts be?

well i'm not a christian, but i believe it did, what was really ment by it did, in 1844. that's EIGHTEEN forty four.

=^^=
.../\...

I'm not a Christian, but my thought would be: "How can I gain from this?".

"Tiiickets! Get your front row tickets here! Great spots to witness the end of the universe, only £5.25 each!"

everyone loves a good armageddon, now we even have the science to prove one is happening..... Cheers mr gore

well i'm not a christian, but i believe it did, what was really ment by it did, in 1844. that's EIGHTEEN forty four.

=^^=
.../\...


Independence of the dominican republic???

The day we approach this subject on a level playing field is the day you have a leg to stand on. You and your preachy ilk put my tone to shame.

Indeed, you might want to re-read the pile of hectoring wank that this is a clipped response to, before you mount your high horse too thoroughly.

I feel sorry for you that you have to reply in this fashion. May the Lord have mercy on you.

I feel sorry for you that you have to reply in this fashion. May the Lord have mercy on you.

Are you taught sanctimony or does it just come naturally?

Are you taught sanctimony or does it just come naturally?

Who says I am pretending or are you refering to the obsolete definition?

Who says I am pretending or are you refering to the obsolete definition?

The other one has bells on...

I feel sorry for you that you have to reply in this fashion. May the Lord have mercy on you.

Are you taught sanctimony or does it just come naturally?

Who says I am pretending or are you refering to the obsolete definition?

The other one has bells on...

You are both very naughty people and neither of you will get into heaven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heikoku 2
I'm not a Christian, but my thought would be: "How can I gain from this?".


"Tiiickets! Get your front row tickets here! Great spots to witness the end of the universe, only £5.25 each!"

ill take 2 tickets with a popcorn and soda :p

I feel sorry for you that you have to reply in this fashion. May the Lord have mercy on you.

It's like I typed "Hey, give an example of exactly the kind of creepy shit I mean".

Thanks.