NationStates Jolt Archive

So my wife and I were idly chatting today over lunch as a result of something we saw on one of those bizarre SciFi Channel movies and it occurred to me to wonder:

Would it be considered cheating if a married person indulged in sex with a hologram/android?

If a religious couple engaged in a threesome with a holographic/android 3rd party, is it a sin?

How is it different from a life-size love doll? Or is it different?

Would sex with an android be sex, or is it just masturbation with a sophisticated sex toy?

My tentative answer is, if it's possible for a person to form an emotional attachment with the android/hologram, then it's sex and thus cheating/sinful. (Whether or not they actually do is irrelevant. It just has to be possible for an average person...)

What do you think?

If your significant other thinks it's cheating, then it's cheating.

Are these androids/holograms sentient/sapient/sophont or whatever? How geeky am I for knowing more than one way to put that in one word?

Cheating is what your partner thinks is cheating really...there's no objective answer.

Some people think looking at porn is cheating. Some people think actual sex with real live people isn't.

It's all a matter of perspective.

NO cheating is NOT whatever your partner thinks is cheating.

cheating is whatever the 2 of you agree is cheating. the other person doesnt get to make the rules. (although you may have to break up if you cant come to a mutual decision)

fucking a doll is not cheating. it might be a symptom of some other problem; it might end up costing far too much money to be tolerated; it might take time away from a real life relationship. its not cheating. you can only cheat with other people.

NO cheating is NOT whatever your partner thinks is cheating.

cheating is whatever the 2 of you agree is cheating.

Disagree entirely. Let's say my girlfriend thinks having sex with another person is cheating. Let's say I don't. I then go fuck some girl. Do you think "honey, I didn't cheat on you because we both didn't agree and come to a mutual consensus that having sex with another person is cheating. We never agreed on that" is going to work?

At all?

'course not. Why? Because to her, I cheated on her. Even if I didn't agree that i was cheating, even if I disagreed about that fact, even if I truly believe I did not cheat on her, to her, I did.

Are these androids/holograms sentient/sapient/sophont or whatever? How geeky am I for knowing more than one way to put that in one word?

That's a tough line to draw. For example, the android Data from Star Trek would be considered a lifeform of his own and so boinking him would be equivalent to sex with a human being.

On the other hand, the androids from the movie Westworld had limited AI and mimicked human behavior without actually having sentience. Would screwing one of them be cheating?

Sinful?

Maturbation (because it's a sex toy) or fornication (because it's a separate entity)?

How about this element: What if the android was a sheep and not a human form? Seriously! Would that change the scenario?

In my mind, the definition of cheating requires *gasp* communication on the part of the people involved in a relationship. If person A is under the impression that it is a monogamous sexual relationship, and person B doesn't want it to be, it's up to person B to tell them. If they can't both agree on something more open, then person B either has to deal with it or get out of the relationship.

In the end, the person with the most restrictive views on cheating is going to set the bar in the relationship. And if their views include androids, etc., then so be it.

And failing to have an actual conversation on these matters doesn't get someone a "get out of jail free card". It is the responsibility of anyone in a relationship to work with their partner to set these boundaries. If you didn't do that and therefore thought you could get away with something your partner might see as cheating, you have cheated on them.

Disagree entirely. Let's say my girlfriend thinks having sex with another person is cheating. Let's say I don't. I then go fuck some girl. Do you think "honey, I didn't cheat on you because we both didn't agree and come to a mutual consensus that having sex with another person is cheating. We never agreed on that" is going to work?

At all?

'course not. Why? Because to her, I cheated on her. Even if I didn't agree that i was cheating, even if I disagreed about that fact, even if I truly believe I did not cheat on her, to her, I did.

Ditto. If your partner doesn't want you to do something then you basically have four options. Change their mind, negotiate a compromise, stop doing it, or break up. And I can't see it being easy to change someone's mind about what they think is cheating, or getting them to come to a compromise about it.

Until adultery with a dildo or a blowup doll are considered legal grounds for divorce, I think it's pretty much a puritannical mentality that's worried about this sort of stuff.

Disagree entirely. Let's say my girlfriend thinks having sex with another person is cheating. Let's say I don't. I then go fuck some girl. Do you think "honey, I didn't cheat on you because we both didn't agree and come to a mutual consensus that having sex with another person is cheating. We never agreed on that" is going to work?

At all?

'course not. Why? Because to her, I cheated on her. Even if I didn't agree that i was cheating, even if I disagreed about that fact, even if I truly believe I did not cheat on her, to her, I did.

thats why it must be a MUTUAL definition.

if you think, for example, that sex with prosititutes isnt cheating and she does, you need to talk that out. if you dont come to a compromise and you have sex with a prostitute YOU ARE NOT CHEATING. she should have dumped your ass as soon as it was obvious that you were not going to change your mind but you did not do anything that you had agreed not to do.


in common relationships it is understood that "sex with another person" is cheating. if you have another definition you really should run it past any lover that you want to keep around for a long time. not making it clear that you have an uncommon definition of cheating is dishonest.

but what about other forms of physical contact with other people? is kissing cheating? is naughty flirting? if your sig other has a problem with .... giving backrubs to the secretary at work.... she needs to bring it up with you, not suddenly scream at you for cheating when you may very well not consider it cheating. her definition does not make you scum.

which doesnt mean that she would be wrong to dump you ass for being a touchy-feely-with-other-women kinda guy. if she cant tolerate innocent behavior she needs to find a guy who doesnt do that kind of thing. but it still doesnt make you the bad guy for doing it.

Until adultery with a dildo or a blowup doll are considered legal grounds for divorce, I think it's pretty much a puritannical mentality that's worried about this sort of stuff.

So imagine you get home from work, noticing that your spouse/S.O's car is in the driveway. You make your way inside and to the bedroom. You open the door, and find your beloved going at it fill power with a gorgeous android that looks exactly l ike a human being except the 'Made in Taiwan' stamped on its ass.

Is that anything like the same as if you discovered them with a dildo?

Ditto. If your partner doesn't want you to do something then you basically have four options. Change their mind, negotiate a compromise, stop doing it, or break up. And I can't see it being easy to change someone's mind about what they think is cheating, or getting them to come to a compromise about it.

im not saying that you can do as you please, im saying that its not all up to the other person. some people's definition of "cheating" is flat out wrong. and yeah, in those cases you should probably walk away rather than put up with it.

So imagine you get home from work, noticing that your spouse/S.O's car is in the driveway. You make your way inside and to the bedroom. You open the door, and find your beloved going at it fill power with a gorgeous android that looks exactly l ike a human being except the 'Made in Taiwan' stamped on its ass.

Is that anything like the same as if you discovered them with a dildo?

Then I'd say "Honey, I hope you let mine recharge!"

You open the door, and find your beloved going at it fill power with a gorgeous android that looks exactly l ike a human being except the 'Made in Taiwan' stamped on its ass.

Is that anything like the same as if you discovered them with a dildo?

Exactly the same, IMHO. I'd be actually more offended if a simple dildo was chosen over me, rather than if I lost to a complicated fuckmachine.

Although thanks to Penis Quigong (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=558696) I hope neither will happen.

I suppose it's like the issue of porn. In my experience, women generally say it is cheating, men genreally say it isn't. That's why, just to be safe, I wouldn't do that sort of thing if it existed, and if I were in a relationship.

thats why it must be a MUTUAL definition.

if you think, for example, that sex with prosititutes isnt cheating and she does, you need to talk that out. if you dont come to a compromise and you have sex with a prostitute YOU ARE NOT CHEATING. she should have dumped your ass as soon as it was obvious that you were not going to change your mind but you did not do anything that you had agreed not to do.


in common relationships it is understood that "sex with another person" is cheating. if you have another definition you really should run it past any lover that you want to keep around for a long time. not making it clear that you have an uncommon definition of cheating is dishonest.

but what about other forms of physical contact with other people? is kissing cheating? is naughty flirting? if your sig other has a problem with .... giving backrubs to the secretary at work.... she needs to bring it up with you, not suddenly scream at you for cheating when you may very well not consider it cheating. her definition does not make you scum.

which doesnt mean that she would be wrong to dump you ass for being a touchy-feely-with-other-women kinda guy. if she cant tolerate innocent behavior she needs to find a guy who doesnt do that kind of thing. but it still doesnt make you the bad guy for doing it.

The problem here is you're the only one who puts a moralistic value on the thing. It seems your suggestion is I'm a bad guy if I cheat at her, as long as her definition of cheating is reasonable, but i"m not bad if it's unreasonable.

I don't put any moral weight on the phrase, because as you said, there are people out there who would consider things cheating that I would not.

People have already given the only right answer to this question, but it bears repeating:

It Depends On The Relationship.

Seriously. There is no such thing as a universal truth across relationships, because different people are (gasp!) different. If you do something with the knowledge (or strong suspicion) that it will make your partner(s) unhappy, you are cheating. Holding hands with someone can be cheating. Screwing a complete stranger can be being faithful. It Depends On The Relationship.

The problem here is you're the only one who puts a moralistic value on the thing. It seems your suggestion is I'm a bad guy if I cheat at her, as long as her definition of cheating is reasonable, but i"m not bad if it's unreasonable.

I don't put any moral weight on the phrase, because as you said, there are people out there who would consider things cheating that I would not.

noooo you are only a bad guy if you have talked it out with her, come to an agreement, and violated that agreement.

the only caveat being that YOU (as in you) might have a definition of cheating that is out of the norm for the kind of women you date. to assume that they are OK with it instead of talking it over is dishonest. you know there is a good chance that she disagrees. in the same way, if SHE has a definition that it outside the norm she needs to talk it over with you instead of accusing you of cheating when you do something that the majority of society would find innocent. (please ignore the sexist assumption that a man would be more of a sexual libertine and a woman more of a prude)

if you cant come to an agreement you are a couple bound to break up over sexual issues. there is no good guy/bad guy in that, only incompatibility.

Easy way to find out:

Ask Your partner if they'd be ok with it. If they clobber you that's a NO.

Mostly we've been discussing the cheating part of it... But for you religious types, what about the sin aspect?

Is a couple having a 3way with an android considered sinful in the same way as if it were a human 3rd person?

Where would you draw the line? At an inflatable doll? A dildo?

Mostly we've been discussing the cheating part of it... But for you religious types, what about the sin aspect?

Is a couple having a 3way with an android considered sinful in the same way as if it were a human 3rd person?

Where would you draw the line? At an inflatable doll? A dildo?

i dont find anything sinful about it. used with a married couple its no more sinful than using a strap-on. used by yourself its no more sinful than masturbation.

in common relationships it is understood that "sex with another person" is cheating. if you have another definition you really should run it past any lover that you want to keep around for a long time. not making it clear that you have an uncommon definition of cheating is dishonest.

but what about other forms of physical contact with other people? is kissing cheating? is naughty flirting? if your sig other has a problem with .... giving backrubs to the secretary at work.... she needs to bring it up with you, not suddenly scream at you for cheating when you may very well not consider it cheating. her definition does not make you scum.

I disagree here. It is just as much the responsibility of the person with the less restrictive views to find out what their partner thinks as it is for the partner to make it clear. If you do something that your sig other considers cheating and you haven't made the effort to find out what their views on cheating are, then you are just as much at fault in the situation as they are.

If you consider an action cheating that your partner might not, it is up to you to tell them. If you consider an action not cheating that your partner might think is cheating, it is up to you to tell them. It is the responsibility of both people in a relationship to make their boundaries clear. And since "might" covers an awful lot, this means that anyone who doesn't sit down and talk with their partner about these boundaries has been irresponsible within their relationship.

noooo you are only a bad guy if you have talked it out with her, come to an agreement, and violated that agreement.

And if you avoid the conversation altogether? Anything goes?

the only caveat being that YOU (as in you) might have a definition of cheating that is out of the norm for the kind of women you date. to assume that they are OK with it instead of talking it over is dishonest. you know there is a good chance that she disagrees. in the same way, if SHE has a definition that it outside the norm she needs to talk it over with you instead of accusing you of cheating when you do something that the majority of society would find innocent. (please ignore the sexist assumption that a man would be more of a sexual libertine and a woman more of a prude)

I don't see why the "norm" has anything to do with it. Even if both of you are fairly normal, you'll both likely place the line in at least a slightly different place.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter how "normal" your views on cheating are. It is your responsibility in a relationship both to make your boundaries clear and to find out what your partner's are. "We just never discussed it" is not an excuse.

if you cant come to an agreement you are a couple bound to break up over sexual issues. there is no good guy/bad guy in that, only incompatibility.

This is true.

I suppose it's like the issue of porn. In my experience, women generally say it is cheating, men genreally say it isn't. That's why, just to be safe, I wouldn't do that sort of thing if it existed, and if I were in a relationship.

Women generally think watching porn is cheating? Not in my experience.

Mostly we've been discussing the cheating part of it... But for you religious types, what about the sin aspect?

Is a couple having a 3way with an android considered sinful in the same way as if it were a human 3rd person?

Where would you draw the line? At an inflatable doll? A dildo?

I tend to think of sin more in terms of intent than in terms of absolute action. A given action may be sinful when one person does it and not sinful when another does. So the question would become - what are you trying to accomplish with the android?

Are you trying to essentially get around a rule by using the robot instead - basically trying to have the experience without the actual living, breathing person?

Are you trying to enhance your sexual experience with your partner?

Are you trying to make up for your partner's faults by using a toy instead of working with them?

I disagree here. It is just as much the responsibility of the person with the less restrictive views to find out what their partner thinks as it is for the partner to make it clear. If you do something that your sig other considers cheating and you haven't made the effort to find out what their views on cheating are, then you are just as much at fault in the situation as they are.

If you consider an action cheating that your partner might not, it is up to you to tell them. If you consider an action not cheating that your partner might think is cheating, it is up to you to tell them. It is the responsibility of both people in a relationship to make their boundaries clear. And since "might" covers an awful lot, this means that anyone who doesn't sit down and talk with their partner about these boundaries has been irresponsible within their relationship.



And if you avoid the conversation altogether? Anything goes?



I don't see why the "norm" has anything to do with it. Even if both of you are fairly normal, you'll both likely place the line in at least a slightly different place.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter how "normal" your views on cheating are. It is your responsibility in a relationship both to make your boundaries clear and to find out what your partner's are. "We just never discussed it" is not an excuse.



of course it should be discussed whenever you decide on an exclusive relationship just what exclusive means.

but when one is assuming or negotiating there should be at least some understanding of what is typical in exclusive relationships. you have to know whether or not what you expect of the other person is reasonable. you may still not be able to come to an agreement but at least you can have some idea if its "you" that is the problem--meaning that you are going to have the same problem over and over again.

having never discussed it is NOT an excuse but i think you can be excused in thinking that he is over the line if you find him in bed with your best friend. and he can think that YOU are over the line when you burn his collection of maxim magazines. (again please excuse the sexist assumptions)

but, of course, all it really means is that you are an incompatible couple who need to break up and find more suitable companions. only the person who consistently breaks pre-agreed upon rules is morally wrong.

Women generally think watching porn is cheating? Not in my experience.

That's why I said "in my experience." Had an ex get pissed that I wanted to watch a pay-per-view (not because of the expence; she said she didn't want me looking at another woman), another who said she would be too, and several friends who said they've had similar experiences. Admittedly, I have had terrible luck with women.

of course it should be discussed whenever you decide on an exclusive relationship just what exclusive means.

but when one is assuming or negotiating there should be at least some understanding of what is typical in exclusive relationships.

That's just it, I don't think one should assume. And if one chooses to do so, they hold just as much responsibility for the error as the person who "isn't normal".

Not to mention that "typical" is really a matter of how we perceive our culture anyways. I may think a given viewpoint is "typical" and maybe it even is within my circle of friends. But that viewpoint may seem very odd to you.

This is precisely why the onus is on both people to discuss it.

you have to know whether or not what you expect of the other person is reasonable. you may still not be able to come to an agreement but at least you can have some idea if its "you" that is the problem--meaning that you are going to have the same problem over and over again.

This seems to assume that "normal" is somehow "better" and that having "abnormal" views on cheating would make you a problem. I don't see it that way. The way you feel about a given action is the way you feel about it. Yes, a very restrictive (or very permissive) viewpoint might make it harder for you to find people willing to make that commitment to you. But that doesn't really mean that it's a problem.

but, of course, all it really means is that you are an incompatible couple who need to break up and find more suitable companions. only the person who consistently breaks pre-agreed upon rules is morally wrong.

I wouldn't agree with this. The person who has done the most wrong is certainly someone who breaks rules that they have actually discussed and agreed to. But the person who does something they suspect their partner might consider over the line and thinks they can get away with it because they haven't actually "had the discussion" is really no better.

It's like a child who suspects something is against the rules, but tries to rationalize it away because his parents never actually explicitly stated that he couldn't do it. Is he really in any less trouble when he gets caught?

Mostly we've been discussing the cheating part of it... But for you religious types, what about the sin aspect?

Is a couple having a 3way with an android considered sinful in the same way as if it were a human 3rd person?

Where would you draw the line? At an inflatable doll? A dildo?

I would think it would depend on the religion. At my childhood church, Mega-church Willow Creek, the sin aspect was lusting after someone not one's spouse. So if one is lusting after someone/something else it'd be sinful. If I make an android that looks like and pantomines what my wife is like and I sleep with this thing, in the case that my wife won't put out, would it be cheating? I'm guessing that they would consider it so.

I tend to think of sin more in terms of intent than in terms of absolute action. A given action may be sinful when one person does it and not sinful when another does. So the question would become - what are you trying to accomplish with the android?

Are you trying to essentially get around a rule by using the robot instead - basically trying to have the experience without the actual living, breathing person?

Are you trying to enhance your sexual experience with your partner?

Are you trying to make up for your partner's faults by using a toy instead of working with them?

Ah but therin lies the rub. Just wanting to enhance the sexual experience may not be enough to avoid the sinful nature of it. After all, if I bring a 3rd person into the bedroom with my wife and me for the sake of enhancing our own lovemaking, it's still adultery in the eyes of the church. Therefore in a case like that, intent means nothing.

With that in mind, would intent have that great an impact if the android is completely lifelike?

I would think it would depend on the religion. At my childhood church, Mega-church Willow Creek, the sin aspect was lusting after someone not one's spouse. So if one is lusting after someone/something else it'd be sinful. If I make an android that looks like and pantomines what my wife is like and I sleep with this thing, in the case that my wife won't put out, would it be cheating? I'm guessing that they would consider it so.

I agree, since on some level it's sharing intimacy with an entity other than your wife, even though that entity is nonliving. On some level it's being treated just like a living person even if it's only pretense.

I would think it would depend on the religion. At my childhood church, Mega-church Willow Creek, the sin aspect was lusting after someone not one's spouse. So if one is lusting after someone/something else it'd be sinful. If I make an android that looks like and pantomines what my wife is like and I sleep with this thing, in the case that my wife won't put out, would it be cheating? I'm guessing that they would consider it so.

If it looked like your wife and pantomimed what she did, I don't think it would put out for you either.

:D

If it looked like your wife and pantomimed what she did, I don't think it would put out for you either.

:D

^Thread winner

/thread

If it looked like your wife and pantomimed what she did, I don't think it would put out for you either.

:D

Its not meant to be a perfect fascimile. ;)

With the advent of sex robots and holograms, it might actually be possible that I could get someone that could keep up with me in bed and not just get tired out.

Technology raises a lot of gray areas. Is going outside the relationship for sex with another person cheating? Yes. It's long since been established and generally agreed upon.

Things over which there is a lot of debate cannot largely be considered cheating. Is sex with a robot cheating? I say no, as long as the robot isn't sentient. It's basically high-tech masturbation. The same goes for adult material - as long as it stops there. Robots, like pornography, are strictly fantasy. At its root, it's not much different from pretending your partner is someone else in bed. It may be terrible judgment and it may be hurtful, but is it cheating? Hardly. Fantasy isn't cheating. It's like equating blogging about how much you'd like to kick the President down a flight of stairs to aggravated assault.

That's just it, I don't think one should assume. And if one chooses to do so, they hold just as much responsibility for the error as the person who "isn't normal".

Not to mention that "typical" is really a matter of how we perceive our culture anyways. I may think a given viewpoint is "typical" and maybe it even is within my circle of friends. But that viewpoint may seem very odd to you.

This is precisely why the onus is on both people to discuss it.



This seems to assume that "normal" is somehow "better" and that having "abnormal" views on cheating would make you a problem. I don't see it that way. The way you feel about a given action is the way you feel about it. Yes, a very restrictive (or very permissive) viewpoint might make it harder for you to find people willing to make that commitment to you. But that doesn't really mean that it's a problem.



I wouldn't agree with this. The person who has done the most wrong is certainly someone who breaks rules that they have actually discussed and agreed to. But the person who does something they suspect their partner might consider over the line and thinks they can get away with it because they haven't actually "had the discussion" is really no better.

It's like a child who suspects something is against the rules, but tries to rationalize it away because his parents never actually explicitly stated that he couldn't do it. Is he really in any less trouble when he gets caught?

i think you are picking nits.

you know that there are common assumptions about exclusive relationships. i dont need to go over every possible contingency when we decide to be exclusive. i dont have to say "and that includes prostitutes" or "that includes my best friend."

and we both know that there are gray areas that need to be worked out. are strip clubs and lap dances out of bounds, for example.

and you cant have it both ways where "ohmygod why didnt you discuss it" and "geez that is obviously against the rules" are brought up in the same post.

and yes, some people need to grow up and have some understanding of the opposite sex or they are going to have a very hard time establishing a satisfying long term relationship. that includes knowing that men are going to look at other women in public from time to time or that women are going to end up having lunch with male business associates. if you expect to find a great man who never ever looks at porn you might have to date an extraordinary number of men before you find him. if you expect to find a great woman who is outgoing and sexy but willing to dress like a member of the FLDS when you get engaged you are going to face many break ups. figuring out that you are the one with the problem can help you adjust your expectations of the people you date.

i think you are picking nits.

you know that there are common assumptions about exclusive relationships.

Yes. But that doesn't mean I think those assumptions are necessarily correct or that they should be relied upon. As with most "common assumptions", they are wrong much more often than one might think.

i dont need to go over every possible contingency when we decide to be exclusive. i dont have to say "and that includes prostitutes" or "that includes my best friend."

Not every possible contingency. But you do need to make yourself clear and recognize that the assumptions your partner is making about what is involved in an exclusive relationship may or may not match your own.

and you cant have it both ways where "ohmygod why didnt you discuss it" and "geez that is obviously against the rules" are brought up in the same post.

No, you can't. Hence the reason that I don't think one should assume that something is "obviously against the rules" any more than one should assume that something is "obviously" within them. Making those assumptions is what gets you into trouble.

What I did say was that "Well, we didn't discuss it so it doesn't count," doesn't fly. You don't get to say "It wasn't cheating because you didn't explicitly say I couldn't do it." Failure to put in the effort doesn't give you a get out of jail free card and neither does trying to rationalize the rules away.

and yes, some people need to grow up and have some understanding of the opposite sex or they are going to have a very hard time establishing a satisfying long term relationship. that includes knowing that men are going to look at other women in public from time to time or that women are going to end up having lunch with male business associates. if you expect to find a great man who never ever looks at porn you might have to date an extraordinary number of men before you find him. if you expect to find a great woman who is outgoing and sexy but willing to dress like a member of the FLDS when you get engaged you are going to face many break ups. figuring out that you are the one with the problem can help you adjust your expectations of the people you date.

Again with the "problem". Are all "unusual" tastes and preferences a "problem"?

Should one examine their preferences and expectations? Of course! Should one feel obligated to change them just because they are unusual? No. And if it makes it harder for that person to find a relationship, so be it. One shouldn't "settle" for a relationship in which they are uncomfortable simply to be in one.

Ashmoria and Dempublicents1, I think the problem is, if I may be so bold, is that each of you, in your own way, is trying to balance the two opposing forces of flexibility and commonality.

On the one hand, nobody wants to come across as rigid and narrow-minded when it comes to possible characteristics of a relationship. Nobody wants to come across like a stick in the mud by saying "Well I know it's okay for some people but in general it would be considered cheating if..."

On the other hand, we all want to acknowledge that there are certain things that are almost universally considered cheating, such as visiting a prostitute but without failing to acknowledge that for some people out there it's really not a problem.

I think that you guys probably do agree more than you realize, and I'm going to see if I can sum it up. If I fail, well, no biggie, right?

I think we'd all agree that, while there are exceptions, there are certain things that are generally accepted as cheating unless specified otherwise, like screwing someone outside the relationship, regardless of circumstances.

I think we'd also agree that there are areas that follow no pattern, and definitely must be discussed because there's no clear consensus, like watching porn, flirting with co-workers, etc.

And then there are some things that are universally considered non-cheating although an especially conservative person might object, like masturbating.

So IMHO a person who goes out and does something from that first category is NOT protected by the "Well we didn't discuss" rule. Common sense tells us that while we individually may not think having a prostitute is cheating, most people do and reality dictates that if we want to do that, our S.O. must consent. This is pragmatism in action.

The second category is the flexible one. If someone catches their S.O. watching porn, they may be upset but some latitude must be given since it is such a gray area, and a rational discussion should then ensue. Ideally this would have already been discussed but hey, we live in the real world where people aren't always that great at being on top of these things.

The last category is the one where the more uptight person needs to be aware that most people won't react as they do, and should be prepared to accept that fact and either learn to be flexible or find someone who shares their perspective.

Fair?

So the question is, how does technology fit into all this?

I'd venture to reiterate my initial definition but applied to these 3 categories. I think an android or holographic lover would be in the first category... the one where most people would not feel comfortable with it because these things can (In a Sci Fi setting) be very lifelike to the point where a real emotional attachment can be formed by the human doing it. A lifelike love doll or even an inflatable one are a little less prone to that sort of thing so I'd expect them to drift into category 2... not universally viewed as cheating but definitely worth a discussion before it becomes a problem.

As to the morality, I'd say that the sinfulness of an action is linked in a consistent way to those categories. The more firmly it rests in the first, the more sinful things tend to be, from a religious standpoint.

May I ask a personal question... are you male or female?

Because the issue with adultery/cheating depends a lot on that.

For a man, adultery is a very physical thing. He doesn't want to swallow another guy's semen when kissing his wife. And he certainly wants his kids to be *his* kids.

For a woman... well, for a woman, it's different. Man can only cheat in a monogamous society, and even then his cheating has no physical consequences. It became an issue roughly the same time as feminism appeared.

So, from a woman's viewpoint, cheating is a much less defined thing. Thus, it's understandable that the difference between a real woman, a robot, a cyber, a fleshlight, etc., isn't really as visible.

Roughly, it's like a question of someone pissing into your beer versus someone drinking a half of your beer.

May I ask a personal question... are you male or female?

Because the issue with adultery/cheating depends a lot on that.

For a man, adultery is a very physical thing. He doesn't want to swallow another guy's semen when kissing his wife. And he certainly wants his kids to be *his* kids.

For a woman... well, for a woman, it's different. Man can only cheat in a monogamous society, and even then his cheating has no physical consequences. It became an issue roughly the same time as feminism appeared.

So, from a woman's viewpoint, cheating is a much less defined thing. Thus, it's understandable that the difference between a real woman, a robot, a cyber, a fleshlight, etc., isn't really as visible.

Roughly, it's like a question of someone pissing into your beer versus someone drinking a half of your beer.

Are you asking me?

I'm male.

I've been thinking about the issue of the android/holo cheating and IMHO it's not cheating from a strictly technical perspective, in that no 3rd party is involved, but think it would do similar emotional damage because it would leave the other person feeling inadequate and betrayed. Thus, while you can argue that it's not cheating per se, it's not really any better.

And the same applies to the nature of sin. I'd still call it a sin, because it simulates a sinful act and thus does comparable spiritual damage.

Imagine this: What if you could have a lifelike android to have the fun of killing it... sort of like in the movie Westworld only less like an adventure and more like a simple, cold blooded slaying. Would you find that disturbing? I would. Spiritually damaging? Absolutely...

...hmm.... I think I feel another novel coming on. Watch for it in bookstores.

I've been thinking about the issue of the android/holo cheating and IMHO it's not cheating from a strictly technical perspective, in that no 3rd party is involved, but think it would do similar emotional damage because it would leave the other person feeling inadequate and betrayed.
So, you would be equally fine with your wife having sex with someone else, and you "going in" after him and raising his but not your children, as you would with her being into futuristic sex robotz?


And the same applies to the nature of sin. Jacking off is a sin too.


Imagine this: What if you could have a lifelike android to have the fun of killing it... I have.
It's purely electronic, of course, but what's the matter.

So, you would be equally fine with your wife having sex with someone else, and you "going in" after him and raising his but not your children, as you would with her being into futuristic sex robotz?


Of course not. Why would you say that?

..although there's some value to the idea that I could react by smashing the android into a million pieces without needing to worry about a murder charge...


Jacking off is a sin too.


Meh. Some religions worry about that more than others. What are you getting at?


I have.
It's purely electronic, of course, but what's the matter.

Which raises an interesting question about violence in computer games.

(Not that it stops me from playing Call of Duty 4, mind you...)

Of course not. Why would you say that? Because then it means that: it would do similar emotional damage - it wouldn't.

An android is still just an advanced fuckmachine.


Which raises an interesting question about violence in computer games.
It wasn't created by computer. Not like paintball isn any less violent, if you think of it.

Because then it means that: - it wouldn't.

An android is still just an advanced fuckmachine.


It is... but people have been known to feel inadequate just from their wife liking a vibrator. Kinda reminds me of an old Sam Kinnison standup...

"So I'm listening to Dr. Ruth spouting her psycho fucking bullshit... And here she is saying 'If the man's penis is too small to satisfy the woman, then it's perfectly acceptable for her to pleasure herself with a dildo or vibrator after she has pleasured the man.'

Oh yeah, Dr. Ruth that's real smart fucking advice. Really gonna pump the man up with sexual confidence. Here is is trying to make love to the woman he cares about and she's laying there going 'Are you done yet?!?!?!? 'cause Mr. Wizzard here would like to give it a try. Yeah I hope the noise doesn't interrupt Miami Vice for ya...'"


It wasn't created by computer. Not like paintball isn any less violent, if you think of it.

True, although on some level one could rationalize that as long as you're not imagining that the paintball is a bullet...

Paintball FTW!

It is... but people have been known to feel inadequate just from their wife liking a vibrator. Kinda reminds me of an old Sam Kinnison standup...

"So I'm listening to Dr. Ruth spouting her psycho fucking bullshit... And here she is saying 'If the man's penis is too small to satisfy the woman, then it's perfectly acceptable for her to pleasure herself with a dildo or vibrator after she has pleasured the man.'
So, what's wrong with it? I've bought my girlfriend a device myself.


True, although on some level one could rationalize that as long as you're not imagining that the paintball is a bullet... Well, then you wouldn't need lifelike guns, would you?

And not everyone imagines the games are for real.

So, what's wrong with it? I've bought my girlfriend a device myself.

Nothing. (IMHO) But there are some who do have a problem, and it's easy to see the vast difference between a dildo and a lifelike love android who performs better than you.


Well, then you wouldn't need lifelike guns, would you?

And not everyone imagines the games are for real.

Is it bad that I have PTSD flashbacks to my paintball career?

"OW! my crotch!"

Nothing. (IMHO) But there are some who do have a problem, and it's easy to see the vast difference between a dildo and a lifelike love android who performs better than you.
Of course it does. A fuckmachine can screw her for hours on end, until she passes out, and after that. You can't.
Any fuckmachine can, doesn't take a humanoid-looking one.


So what? It might be a question of disrespect, and maybe some other bad things, but it's not exactly a question of adultery.

If your significant other thinks it's cheating, then it's cheating.

Yep, unless they keep changing the rules to fuck with you.

Mutually agree on what's okay and go from there.

If your significant other thinks it's cheating, then it's cheating.

It doesn't matter what the topic is, they're right and if you're doing wrong by them they'll make you pay one way or another. ;)

According to the bible (MATT 5:32) fornication with someone who is not your wife is not adultery. you commit adultery when you marry someone who is already, or if you are already married and you marry someone else, or if you marry a woman who is divorced.

also, i'd say that unless they are human and alive, it is masturbation. but that brings up the question: what about bestiality? regardless of any illegality, and regardless of whether you think it is "immoral" or "wrong" or "sinful", is it sex, or masturbation? and is it cheating?

I think that you guys probably do agree more than you realize, and I'm going to see if I can sum it up. If I fail, well, no biggie, right?

I think we'd all agree that, while there are exceptions, there are certain things that are generally accepted as cheating unless specified otherwise, like screwing someone outside the relationship, regardless of circumstances.

I think we'd also agree that there are areas that follow no pattern, and definitely must be discussed because there's no clear consensus, like watching porn, flirting with co-workers, etc.

And then there are some things that are universally considered non-cheating although an especially conservative person might object, like masturbating.

I think these categories doe exist, in a way. And someone's reaction to something they haven't explicitly discussed probably should be modulated by them.

Of course, exactly what goes in each category depends largely on the person. Things that I might think are category 2 may be in category 1 in your circle. A person who grew up in an especially conservative circle may think their views are typical and may think the masturbation is more category 2 or even category 1. And so on....

This is why, in my mind, all three categories need to be discussed before they become a problem. And the onus here is on both people. One may be more permissive and the other more restrictive, but it is up to both of them to make their own boundaries clear and to ask about those of their partner.

Thus, while there are certainly issues on which most of us would understand, I don't think there's really any excuse for not having discussed it. It's sort of like some crimes. There are crimes that people commit where you can understand why they did it and think they should get off light. But it's still a crime, nonetheless. Misunderstandings that fall squarely into, say, category 3 are sort of like that. We can understand why the person who upset his partner didn't think it would be a problem and we probably think his partner should work with him on it and that it shouldn't be a relationship-ending problem. But it doesn't mean that the person in question shouldn't have made sure he understood his partner's boundaries (or, of course, that his partner shouldn't have made sure he did).

Communication is key to a healthy relationship. If you don't make the effort to establish boundaries you both can live with, you can't really come crying when that lack of communication leads to a problem.


On the rest, I agree that the life-like qualities of a sex android would probably freak a lot of people out. Even if such a device were really used purely for sexual gratification, the appearance to a spouse (particularly if that spouse already felt inadequate) might be of something more emotional. But I really think, in the end, it would come down to a decision that would have to be made in each relationship. Maybe using it together would be ok, but not alone. Maybe it would be ok if your spouse was away on a long trip, but not if they were actually around to do the real thing.

Like most things in a relationship, I think the answer would really boil down to what each person was comfortable with.

Cheating isn't about who's having sex with what or whom. Cheating is betrayal of trust, whatever that is defined as in the relationship in question.

Also, admit it guys, you'd all totally dress up as Daleks and sexy the place up, right?

also, Admit It Guys, You'd All Totally Dress Up As Daleks And Sexy The Place Up, Right?

Lu-bri-cate!! Pe-ne-trate!! For-ni-cate!!

If your significant other thinks it's cheating, then it's cheating.

And once again folks, short answer wins.

/thread.

Of course it does. A fuckmachine can screw her for hours on end, until she passes out, and after that. You can't.
Any fuckmachine can, doesn't take a humanoid-looking one.

So what? It might be a question of disrespect, and maybe some other bad things, but it's not exactly a question of adultery.

Well that's exactly why this thread exists... to see what people think.

I agree with you in the sense that a sex toy wouldn't be adultery per se, but it may well be sinful depending on how much it distracts someone form a spiritual life (like in a case of addiction). But at some point (in a Sci Fi setting) it BECOMES adultery as love dolls evolve into androids which evolve into highly-advanced sentient androids.

For example, you get home and you see your wife riding a lifelike male love doll. Adultery? I'd say no, although there may well be emotional damage.

If she's riding a non-sentient android from Westworld? Adultery? Again I'd say no, but there is a problem here if she suddenly decided you're obsolete and gets exclusive with her Yul Brenner cowboy lookalike.

If she's Riding Lt.Commander Data? Hm. I'd say that's adultery.

I think these categories doe exist, in a way. And someone's reaction to something they haven't explicitly discussed probably should be modulated by them.

Of course, exactly what goes in each category depends largely on the person. Things that I might think are category 2 may be in category 1 in your circle. A person who grew up in an especially conservative circle may think their views are typical and may think the masturbation is more category 2 or even category 1. And so on....

This is why, in my mind, all three categories need to be discussed before they become a problem. And the onus here is on both people. One may be more permissive and the other more restrictive, but it is up to both of them to make their own boundaries clear and to ask about those of their partner.

Thus, while there are certainly issues on which most of us would understand, I don't think there's really any excuse for not having discussed it. It's sort of like some crimes. There are crimes that people commit where you can understand why they did it and think they should get off light. But it's still a crime, nonetheless. Misunderstandings that fall squarely into, say, category 3 are sort of like that. We can understand why the person who upset his partner didn't think it would be a problem and we probably think his partner should work with him on it and that it shouldn't be a relationship-ending problem. But it doesn't mean that the person in question shouldn't have made sure he understood his partner's boundaries (or, of course, that his partner shouldn't have made sure he did).

Communication is key to a healthy relationship. If you don't make the effort to establish boundaries you both can live with, you can't really come crying when that lack of communication leads to a problem.


On the rest, I agree that the life-like qualities of a sex android would probably freak a lot of people out. Even if such a device were really used purely for sexual gratification, the appearance to a spouse (particularly if that spouse already felt inadequate) might be of something more emotional. But I really think, in the end, it would come down to a decision that would have to be made in each relationship. Maybe using it together would be ok, but not alone. Maybe it would be ok if your spouse was away on a long trip, but not if they were actually around to do the real thing.

Like most things in a relationship, I think the answer would really boil down to what each person was comfortable with.

I see what you're saying but I still think there are certain items which are, for all intents and purposes, universal with exceptions being relatively few. An example is a husband hiring a prostitute. I don't think any reasonable person would do it and expect his wife to be alright with it having not even discussed it with her beforehand. That's a category 1 that I believe everybody would agree with, being very few exceptions.

It does seem like the category 2 stuff is growing wider and wider as the years pass, doesn't it?

I agree with you in the sense that a sex toy wouldn't be adultery per se, but it may well be sinful depending on how much it distracts someone form a spiritual life (like in a case of addiction). Masturbation is sinful anyway.
Even looking at a modern ad and thinking "OMG, I'd love to screw her" is two sins already.


If she's riding a non-sentient android from Westworld? Adultery? Again I'd say no, but there is a problem here if
No "if". There is a problem here already. This problem isn't exactly adultery, but it is a problem.


If she's Riding Lt.Commander Data? Hm. I'd say that's adultery.
I don't know who that Mr.Data is... But anyway, I'd draw the line like this: It's when the fuckmachine is something that can enjoy the process. Adultery is a two-party process, it starts when the machine is a party. And it's certainly crossed when Mr.Data is no longer a bought toy, but has a say in whom he screws.


Either way, that's hard to define (I don't agree with the emotional attachment definition - fucking with random boys on the street is adultery just as well), but one of the things where "I know it when I see it", just like with porn.

Masturbation is sinful anyway.
Even looking at a modern ad and thinking "OMG, I'd love to screw her" is two sins already.


True, but then there's the question of degrees of severity.


No "if". There is a problem here already. This problem isn't exactly adultery, but it is a problem.


Yar


I don't know who that Mr.Data is... But anyway, I'd draw the line like this: It's when the fuckmachine is something that can enjoy the process. Adultery is a two-party process, it starts when the machine is a party. And it's certainly crossed when Mr.Data is no longer a bought toy, but has a say in whom he screws.


I think you hit on a really good point here.... which I bolded. If the android is self aware enough to have a say that goes beyond simple list programming, then that's a good ballpark measure of when the line is crossed into adultery.


Either way, that's hard to define (I don't agree with the emotional attachment definition - fucking with random boys on the street is adultery just as well), but one of the things where "I know it when I see it", just like with porn.

It's not about HAVING the emotional attachment, but rather its POTENTIAL emotional attachment. The average person is highly unlikely to form an emotional attachment to a dildo, but could very well form one with a stranger of the street or an advanced android. It doesn't have to happen for it to be cheating, but the potential is a big factor, IMHO.

It's not about HAVING the emotional attachment, but rather its POTENTIAL emotional attachment. The average person is highly unlikely to form an emotional attachment to a dildo, but could very well form one with a stranger of the street or an advanced android.
Not good enough still. I have an emotional attachment to my car, for one...
It's possible to have it to a sex object. Very possible if you made this dildo yourself, and experience special pleasure from it. OTOH, prostitutes are often looked so down that they're below emotional attachments.




P.S.

I would also consider this problem: biological surrogates. I recall RPing about a genetic engineering corporation, one employee of which did an unethical thing with a body replacement process. He started to grow and sell permanently underage bodies, which would be transplanted to adult prostitutes (of course modifying the face) to cater to pedophiles.

And when the clinic was bombed down, some were using these bodies without transplantation - with the "stub brain", developed for sex only.
Now, there's a question, where would be the line for adultery in this case... On one hand, it's not sentient, on the other, it's a human body.

Not good enough still. I have an emotional attachment to my car, for one...
It's possible to have it to a sex object. Very possible if you made this dildo yourself, and experience special pleasure from it. OTOH, prostitutes are often looked so down that they're below emotional attachments.


But you don't have SEX with your car. (I assume)

And experiencing pleasure from an object you made yourself isn't the same as falling in love with it.


P.S.

I would also consider this problem: biological surrogates. I recall RPing about a genetic engineering corporation, one employee of which did an unethical thing with a body replacement process. He started to grow and sell permanently underage bodies, which would be transplanted to adult prostitutes (of course modifying the face) to cater to pedophiles.

And when the clinic was bombed down, some were using these bodies without transplantation - with the "stub brain", developed for sex only.
Now, there's a question, where would be the line for adultery in this case... On one hand, it's not sentient, on the other, it's a human body.

Gawd I don't know if I could even keep track of all the levels that's wrong on.

So my wife and I were idly chatting today over lunch as a result of something we saw on one of those bizarre SciFi Channel movies and it occurred to me to wonder:

Would it be considered cheating if a married person indulged in sex with a hologram/android?

If a religious couple engaged in a threesome with a holographic/android 3rd party, is it a sin?

How is it different from a life-size love doll? Or is it different?

Would sex with an android be sex, or is it just masturbation with a sophisticated sex toy?

My tentative answer is, if it's possible for a person to form an emotional attachment with the android/hologram, then it's sex and thus cheating/sinful. (Whether or not they actually do is irrelevant. It just has to be possible for an average person...)

What do you think?

In a similar vein, since Christians are 'indwelt' by the spirit, is every act of sex between Christians a gay, masturbation incest orgy?

In a similar vein, since Christians are 'indwelt' by the spirit, is every act of sex between Christians a gay, masturbation incest orgy?

Proof positive that UB wasn't the only troll with a high post count.

Proof positive that UB wasn't the only troll with a high post count.

Pfft. 4,600 is hardly a high post count.