NationStates Jolt Archive

Ach.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7467990.stm

Zimbabwe's opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai has decided to pull out of the presidential run-off on 27 June, party officials have told the BBC.

The decision, taken at a meeting of the leadership of the Movement for Democratic Change in Harare, means Robert Mugabe will remain as president.

The MDC says the decision comes after at least 70 of its supporters have been killed in the run-up to the poll.

Thoughts, etc.?

Absolutely terrible, I think. Mugabe's been tearing his own nation appart for the last few years.

I'm not surprised, though. I think Tsvangirai's probably done the right thing though, considering.

so Mugabe essentially gets to be dictator for life now?

so Mugabe essentially gets to be dictator for life now?
Until the old bugger kicks the bucket or he gets it in a coup.

Appalling, but all the same, this is Africa's issue.

:(


Very sad, very bad news...

Time for UK intervention
Err no. Will look like imperialism, regardless of its obvious merit, making him into a martyr across Africa, especially in those really retarded countries like Numidia which like him already.

and so the AU should get its arse in gear
Quite.

Time for UK intervention

Appalling, but all the same, this is Africa's issue.

and so the AU should get its arse in gear

1. Lol at the African Union. What have they ever done to convince me that they could be a stabilizing force anywhere in that continent? Sigh, but I guess they're better than nothing, and they need to start somewhere in that continent. [start sarcasm?]Maybe my ancestors being slaves in Mississippi ended up being for the good of the bloodline. [end sarcasm?]

Time for UK intervention

They made the mess, they clean it up? Please don't start holding countries th that (reasonable) standard, otherwise we (the U.S.) is going to have to clean up Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Laos, Cuba, the Phillipines, amd maybe some other stuff I can't remember at 0830.

1. Lol at the African Union. What have they ever done to convince me that they could be a stabilizing force anywhere in that continent? Sigh, but I guess they're better than nothing, and they need to start somewhere in that continent. [start sarcasm?]Maybe my ancestors being slaves in Mississippi ended up being for the good of the bloodline. [end sarcasm?]
They're doing alright in Somalia with the peacekeeping effort. And it'll improve over time, I reckon.
They made the mess, they clean it up
This one particularly grates on me, because this is not the UK's mess, this is Rhodesia's mess.

I really don't know what to say, other than one big FFS.

Well, they were meant to have their first legal rally today, and the military had taken positions around the site. If they hadn't done this now, there would have been a massacre.

The blame lies squarely with South Africa, by the way. The world community gave them a task, and they were too busy idolising an "independence hero" to do it. I say next time Mugabe turns up for some conference, he gets arrested and put on trial for crimes against humanity. Diplomatic immunity my ass.

1. Lol at the African Union. What have they ever done to convince me that they could be a stabilizing force anywhere in that continent?

Togo? Mauritania? Anjouan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_invasion_of_Anjouan)?

They made the mess, they clean it up? Please don't start holding countries th that (reasonable) standard, otherwise we (the U.S.) is going to have to clean up Vietnam France's mess, Cambodia Again France's mess, Thailand never was colonized their own god damn mess, LaosFrance's mess, Cuba not really colonized by the US more by Spain, though we would love to fix this country but treaty with Russia(then USSR) prevents it , the Phillipinesmaybe 95% Spain's mess and 5% ours, but I am all for going here again as well Filipino women are hot and really like white guys, amd maybe some other stuff I can't remember at 0830.

France's mess
Oh fucking please.

Indochina was France's mess, the unique clusterfuck that was the Vietnam War which killed about 3 million Vietnamese is not their fault.
Again France's mess
The Kmher Rouge was supported by the US, not China.
never was colonized their own god damn mess
Some of it was in Indochina. So aye, France's mess.
France's mess
The proxy war there between the VC and US from 1969-1973 was not France's fault.

Oh fucking please.

Indochina was France's mess, the unique clusterfuck that was the Vietnam War which killed about 3 million Vietnamese is not their fault.
something about them continuing to hold onto their colonies and the divisions of the Genva convention.
The Kmher Rouge was supported by the US, not China.

1st who brought up China ??
2nd Pol Pot was trained and funded by the PRC before he came to power.
3rd While in power he was supported by both the US and China as a counter balance to Vietnam. US support dried up first and funneling money through ASEAN the us secretly funded the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia.

Some of it was in Indochina. So aye, France's mess.

Indochina yes, however none of modern Thailand was part of the French Indochina. only for a period of 5 years from 1941 to 1946 were the parts of old Thailand that had been incorporated into French Indochina briefly in Thailand's hands. though most of that Time Thailand was occupied by the Japanese.

The proxy war there between the VC and US from 1969-1973 was not France's fault.

If it is the US fighting someone directly it is not a proxy war. A proxy war would be Iraq Vs Iran.
The 2nd Indochina war was from 1959 to 1975.
The 2nd Indochina was is a direct result of the first Indochina war fought by France which lasted from 1946 to 1954.

The USA shouldn't try to sort out messes it created. The people of Iraq could tell you that.

Britain and the Commonwealth should march on Harare / Salisbury. It's an imperial mess, and so the sucessors of the British Empire should get their act together and sort out the problem they created. The whole Rhodesia problem was created by the British attitude of "Get rid of African colonies asap never mind the natives". Anti-Imperialism make the Empire look like paradise!

Mugabe said "Only God" can remove him. Time to go to church methinks!

Failing that, send in the Army. After all, I doubt anyone, other than nationalistic African leaders who think Mugabe can do no wrong, would stop a mercy mission. The Next election in that country should be to decide how to execute Mugabe.

This can only get worse before it gets better.

Time for UK intervention

No. Not our problem, and, in any case, even if it were, the colonial stigma a post-Mugabe reigme would incur from intervention would be deleterious to the point of rendering intervention futile.

Put your gun and US flag away, and stop trying to forcibly make the world a "better", more democratic, more capitalist, more "librul" place.

Britain and the Commonwealth should march on Harare / Salisbury. It's an imperial mess, and so the sucessors of the British Empire should get their act together and sort out the problem they created. The whole Rhodesia problem was created by the British attitude of "Get rid of African colonies asap never mind the natives". Anti-Imperialism make the Empire look like paradise!

Yeah, this is really India's fault.

Anyway, the British attitude wasn't "never mind the natives" in this case. Britain wasn't going to grant independence until there was democracy and majority rule but Ian Smith's government opposed this and declared independence.

Togo? Mauritania? Anjouan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_invasion_of_Anjouan)?

From the Wikipedia Article you linked to about the invasion of Anjouan.
"A French analyst said the AU was hoping to win easily against Anjouan to earn some international prestige to offset the failures of its struggling peacekeeping missions in Sudan and Somalia.[6]"

The USA shouldn't try to sort out messes it created. The people of Iraq could tell you that.

Britain and the Commonwealth should march on Harare / Salisbury. It's an imperial mess, and so the sucessors of the British Empire should get their act together and sort out the problem they created. The whole Rhodesia problem was created by the British attitude of "Get rid of African colonies asap never mind the natives". Anti-Imperialism make the Empire look like paradise!

Mugabe said "Only God" can remove him. Time to go to church methinks!

Failing that, send in the Army. After all, I doubt anyone, other than nationalistic African leaders who think Mugabe can do no wrong, would stop a mercy mission. The Next election in that country should be to decide how to execute Mugabe.

1. Hence what I was saying before. Weren't not exactly nation builders, see examples: Afghanistan, Iraq.

And as for those who think that we shouldn't have anything to do with SE Asia, we probably at least have the responsibility to clear our unexploded ordinance in the area so the residents can return to their pre-war standard of living. Anything beyond that isn't our problem. (Leave the campground the way you found it, kids!)

No. Not our problem, and, in any case, even if it were, the colonial stigma a post-Mugabe reigme would incur from intervention would be deleterious to the point of rendering intervention futile.

Put your gun and US flag away, and stop trying to forcibly make the world a "better", more democratic, more capitalist, more "librul" place.

actually I was waving a Union Jack around. All part of my push to have the British Monarchy reinstated in the US.

Whats so hard about send in a SAS sniper team shoot Mugabe and get out ?

Yeah, this is really India's fault.

Anyway, the British attitude wasn't "never mind the natives" in this case. Britain wasn't going to grant independence until there was democracy and majority rule but Ian Smith's government opposed this and declared independence.

All the commonwealth is guilty of not sorting this out. Collective responsibility etc.

Ian Smith was not a good person but he was right. Put in Mugabe's lot and you get the crisis there now.

Also, why are the MDC withdrawing? Surely violence spurs one on to fight the enemy more? Something suspicious about that...

Also, why are the MDC withdrawing? Surely violence spurs one on to fight the enemy more?
It does? When the enemy is better armed than you?

actually I was waving a Union Jack around. All part of my push to have the British Monarchy reinstated in the US.

Whats so hard about send in a SAS sniper team shoot Mugabe and get out ?

It's the getting out that's the hard part.

actually I was waving a Union Jack around. All part of my push to have the British Monarchy reinstated in the US.

Whats so hard about send in a SAS sniper team shoot Mugabe and get out ?

In practice, nothing. The political implications of any such action, for the UK, and for Zimbabwean politics for a long time, would be too dire however.

Better to leave Zimbabwe, or the AU, to solve the problem itself, and organically develop polity, electoral system and nation that is teneble.

"A French analyst said the AU was hoping to win easily against Anjouan to earn some international prestige to offset the failures of its struggling peacekeeping missions in Sudan and Somalia.[6]"

however it still proves the AU is a capable force especially seeing as how it is still holding out in Somalia and Sudan despite what looks like an impossible task

All part of my push to have the British Monarchy reinstated in the US.

I think you will have to convince us to want you first ;)

Whats so hard about send in a SAS sniper team shoot Mugabe and get out ?

cut one head off and another grows and such

All the commonwealth is guilty of not sorting this out. Collective responsibility etc.

not really Zimbabwe is not in the commonwealth

actually I was waving a Union Jack around. All part of my push to have the British Monarchy reinstated in the US.

Whats so hard about send in a SAS sniper team shoot Mugabe and get out ?
... aye the actual shooting of Mugabe is not the problem. Hell we could fly in a Reaper and take him out when he's in his car without any prewarning.

The issue is the consequences of this action. There are many people as bad or worse than Mugabe in ZANU-PF, and the British killing him is not going to help with that.
something about them continuing to hold onto their colonies and the divisions of the Genva convention.
Uhu, they gave up Indochina. And the war was essentially started because the US knew that the country would vote for the communists to take power of the entire state.
1st who brought up China ??
It's more their fault than the French.
2nd Pol Pot was trained and funded by the PRC before he came to power.
Uhu.
3rd While in power he was supported by both the US and China as a counter balance to Vietnam.
If you mean "a counter balance", you actually mean "ethnic cleansing of the Vietnamese along with about 30% of the rest of the population", yes. Nice one, guys.
US support dried up first and funneling money through ASEAN the us secretly funded the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia.
Uhu... awesome...
Indochina yes, however none of modern Thailand was part of the French Indochina. only for a period of 5 years from 1941 to 1946 were the parts of old Thailand that had been incorporated into French Indochina briefly in Thailand's hands. though most of that Time Thailand was occupied by the Japanese.
Uhu. It was still in.
If it is the US fighting someone directly it is not a proxy war. A proxy war would be Iraq Vs Iran.
Was mainly South Vietnamese commandos vaguely backed up by MACV-SOG IIRC, no?
The 2nd Indochina war was from 1959 to 1975. The 2nd Indochina was is a direct result of the first Indochina war fought by France which lasted from 1946 to 1954.
Absolutely did not need to happen. Whatsoever.

Wow, the 'Western' media really does have an obsession with Zimbabwe doesn't it, I don't think I've seen a night this week without some lousy hit piece on Robert Mugabe, blaming him for the economic crisis created by the Western economic blockade on Zimbabwe.

Mugabe is an ardent anti-imperialist, which in the eyes of the 'West' in enough to warrant using every provocation, threat and economic sabotage to try and dislodge the legitimate and democratically elected Zanu-pf government from office.

The Western capitalists must be positively salivating at the prospect of an invasion, more people to exploit, another sovereign and independent nation (and thus not a American crony-state) out of the picture.

How about this 'Yootopia', you stop being a mouthpiece for the imperialist camp and the ruling class, and I'll take you seriously.

Also, the MDC is nothing but a Western proxy.

How about this 'Yootopia', you stop being a mouthpiece for the imperialist camp and the ruling class, and I'll take you seriously.
Bored of you now, Andaras.

Wow, the 'Western' media really does have an obsession with Zimbabwe doesn't it, I don't think I've seen a night this week without some lousy hit piece on Robert Mugabe, blaming him for the economic crisis created by the Western economic blockade on Zimbabwe.

Mugabe is an ardent anti-imperialist, which in the eyes of the 'West' in enough to warrant using every provocation, threat and economic sabotage to try and dislodge the legitimate and democratically elected Zanu-pf government from office.

The Western capitalists must be positively salivating at the prospect of an invasion, more people to exploit, another sovereign and independent nation (and thus not a American crony-state) out of the picture.

How about this 'Yootopia', you stop being a mouthpiece for the imperialist camp and the ruling class, and I'll take you seriously.

Also, the MDC is nothing but a Western proxy.

And you're fine with cutting off the hands and feet of the wives of your opponents...

All the commonwealth is guilty of not sorting this out. Collective responsibility etc.

The only reason seems to be that you have said so. The Commonwealth is about as relevant as the Triple Alliance.

Ian Smith was not a good person but he was right.

Weren't you just saying that not giving a crap about the black population was a bad thing?

Put in Mugabe's lot and you get the crisis there now.

Put Ian Smith's oppressive government in charge and you get the crisis there now. Actually have a democracy and you might get a functioning state.

Also, why are the MDC withdrawing? Surely violence spurs one on to fight the enemy more?

There were similar sentiments in a Telegraph article describing Tsvangarai as spineless. When you don't have the blood of friends and supporters weighing down on your conscience, it's a lot easier to say what's right.

Wow, the 'Western' media really does have an obsession with Zimbabwe doesn't it, I don't think I've seen a night this week without some lousy hit piece on Robert Mugabe, blaming him for the economic crisis created by the Western economic blockade on Zimbabwe.


The consensus amongst economists is in complete disagreement with you, it was a factor, nothing more.


Mugabe is an ardent anti-imperialist, which in the eyes of the 'West' in enough to warrant using every provocation, threat and economic sabotage to try and dislodge the legitimate and democratically elected Zanu-pf government from office.

The Western capitalists must be positively salivating at the prospect of an invasion, more people to exploit, another sovereign and independent nation (and thus not a American crony-state) out of the picture.


Who do you mean by 'the west'/'western capitalists'? It's absurd and childish to treat them like one big hivemind.

Andaras, you can't tell me that South Africa is a puppet of the West. Even they think that Mugabe is an idiot.

Bourgeois economists.
Of course, because pointless wars against your militarily superior neighbours are cheap as free...

The consensus amongst economists is in complete disagreement with you, it was a factor, nothing more.
Bourgeois economists.

Bourgeois economists.

Aren't you technically 'bourgeois'? Does that mean your opinions don't count either?

Aren't you technically 'bourgeois'? Does that mean your opinions don't count either?

Shhh. He's actually a Trostkyite.

Wow, the 'Western' media really does have an obsession with Zimbabwe doesn't it, I don't think I've seen a night this week without some lousy hit piece on Robert Mugabe, blaming him for the economic crisis created by the Western economic blockade on Zimbabwe.

so surely it should be time for him to surrender then considering the country is starving to death?

yes thats right, you thought you still had a chance against the mighty Bourgeoisie empire but now it is only a matter of time before your precious revolution is forgotten and we achieve what we had always hoped for....total world domination under the new British imperial flag! Muahahaha

Do I hire and purchase the labor of workers as capital? No.

Your loose terminology reveals your ignorance.
What do you and your parents do for a living, then?

Aren't you technically 'bourgeois'? Does that mean your opinions don't count either?
Do I hire and purchase the labor of workers as capital? No.

Your loose terminology reveals your ignorance.

Do I hire and purchase the labor of workers as capital? No.

Your loose terminology reveals your ignorance.


Actually that's only a Marxist use of the term, the actual word is far more broad then that, but I assumed you weren't using a Marxist definition of the word since it could not possibly apply to a University researcher, who wouldn't be hiring and exploiting the working class at all.

http://www.intternetti.net/~jiri/motivation/revolutionareies.jpg

Do you know what I like most about the evil Western blockade that has destroyed Zimbabwe's economy? The way that it worked retroactively. You know, because their economy was going down the plug before it became an international pariah state. That was really clever, how they designed the sanctions to work years before they came into effect.

What is also interesting is that the economic sanctions only affect a small group of Zanu-PF elites. Who would have thought that just a handful of people are responsible for the functioning of an entire nation.

Do you know what I like most about the evil Western blockade that has destroyed Zimbabwe's economy? The way that it worked retroactively. You know, because their economy was going down the plug before it became an international pariah state. That was really clever, how they designed the sanctions to work years before they came into effect.

What is also interesting is that the economic sanctions only affect a small group of Zanu-PF elites. Who would have thought that just a handful of people are responsible for the functioning of an entire nation.

Those sneaky blockades managed to do this a while back:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4193129.ece

without even having blockades!

Wow, the 'Western' media really does have an obsession with Zimbabwe doesn't it, I don't think I've seen a night this week without some lousy hit piece on Robert Mugabe, blaming him for the economic crisis created by the Western economic blockade on Zimbabwe.

Mugabe is an ardent anti-imperialist, which in the eyes of the 'West' in enough to warrant using every provocation, threat and economic sabotage to try and dislodge the legitimate and democratically elected Zanu-pf government from office.

The Western capitalists must be positively salivating at the prospect of an invasion, more people to exploit, another sovereign and independent nation (and thus not a American crony-state) out of the picture.

How about this 'Yootopia', you stop being a mouthpiece for the imperialist camp and the ruling class, and I'll take you seriously.

Also, the MDC is nothing but a Western proxy.

Do you ever visit reality?

Lets see, we opposed Ian smith because he would'nt let a lot of the population vote in elections.
Now mugabe uses violence and the fear of violence to ensure that a lot of the population wont vote.
Whats different?
Is a white oppressor of the population somehow evil and should be opposed but a black oppressor of the people is a hero who can do no wrong?

But knowing how the world works, so long as mugabe buys off a UN security council member(in this case China), the world will not do a damn thing.

PS I sell my labour to my ebil capitalist boss, the moment he stops paying me a fair price is the moment I stop working for him...... That kind of freedom blows a hole in the 'exploitation of the workers' theory

Ach.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7467990.stm



Thoughts, etc.?
I am very angry and disappointed. Mugabe has to die...

Mugabe has to die...
And die he will. He's an old man.

And die he will. He's an old man.
I was hoping more for an assassination.

I was hoping more for an assassination.
That's exactly what ZANU-PF would love as well. He dies from natural causes, and their whole party collapses because it's lost its way and its meaning. If someone kills him, especially from outside of Zimbabwe, they'll be able to stay in power for a very long time.

So what, should he just be allowed to survive and continue to cause misery and starvation?
5 more years of ZANU-PF or 25?

That's exactly what ZANU-PF would love as well. He dies from natural causes, and their whole party collapses because it's lost its way and its meaning. If someone kills him, especially from outside of Zimbabwe, they'll be able to stay in power for a very long time.
So what, should he just be allowed to survive and continue to cause misery and starvation?

5 more years of ZANU-PF or 25?
I apologize for being a bit thick, but why can't we just assassinate all of the members of ZANU-PF? I was under the impression that it's a fascist party anyway.

EDIT: And by "we," I meant us contemplating the idea. I don't mean "we" as in a police action.

EDIT 2: Why isn't zero more years of ZANU-PF an option?

I apologize for being a bit thick, but why can't we just assassinate all of the members of ZANU-PF? I was under the impression that it's a fascist party anyway.
Where do you stop?

The party itself has hundreds of thousands of members, the War Veterans who are mostly ex-ZANLA has about 40,000 members. They will not be forgotten, because of their role in getting rid of the RF. They are also just about the only people with any money. The economy is in a terrible way, killing people with money does not help with that.
Why isn't zero more years of ZANU-PF an option?
Because it has a very well-entrenched power base, which is what you get with a 28-year-old dictatorship based upon a cult of personality.

Where do you stop?

Good question. Probably with the members of the legislative and executive bodies who are most obviously implicated in the crimes taking place.


The economy is in a terrible way, killing people with money does not help with that.

I suppose not. My hang up is that their holding power will only make the economy worse.


Because it has a very well-entrenched power base, which is what you get with a 28-year-old dictatorship based upon a cult of personality.
What do you think should be done about it?

Good question. Probably with the members of the legislative and executive bodies who are most obviously implicated in the crimes taking place.
Uhu. And you've just made martyrs of them. Nice one.
I suppose not. My hang up is that their holding power will only make the economy worse.
Worse than their money just... not existing?
What do you think should be done about it?
Just wait for Mugabe to die of old age, mainly. The whole thing will collapse, mark my words.

Uhu. And you've just made martyrs of them. Nice one.

Worse than their money just... not existing?

Just wait for Mugabe to die of old age, mainly. The whole thing will collapse, mark my words.
Surely there must be a more humane option than that.

Surely there must be a more humane option than that.
I doubt it. Anyway, I'm off to bed, it's 3:30am.

Colonialism has little to do with the current problem, at least in its traditional form. The current problem, which affects all Africa, is that the entire continent is being ravaged by international governments eager to prop up corruption in Africa so they can plunder natural resources. One might say this has always been the case but the current scale dwarfs any previous attempt, it's horrific.

While the West decries Mugabe, it fawns over Obiang of Equatorial Guinea, a country even worse off than Zimbabwe, with the greatest disparity between the tiny few at the top and the multitudes at the bottom. The difference being that Obiang promises resources, Mugabe lies in the arms of the Chinese.

It's simple hypocrisy driven by the intense competition for resources, which means corruption is back, sweet deals are made and a few become rich. Mozambique allows timber to be uprooted and sent overseas despite regulations, paid politicians vote for loopholes that render any previous protection obsolete, the destruction continues unabated.

There is no reward, no processing is done in Africa, no skills transferred, the raw materials are exported out and that's it.

The rise of China means this race for resources obviates any regard for the already weak regulations in place. It's an outright battle to get as much out of Africa as quickly as possible by all concerned and all are at fault.

Previously, the world pretty much ignored Africa, that was a shame, now it's simply stripping it for all it can take.

It's rape.

The most unregulated parts of this world, the oceans and Africa are also the most pillaged, wholesale slaughter of the sea, wholesale uprooting of Africa - future generations will shake their heads.

The focus is on Mugabe, another smokescreen for the immorality of everyone else.

Breaking news: Mugabe assassinated by mysterious "Z Force", leaves Zimbabwe in violent upheaval. Re-establishment of white rule spontaneously commences in some provinces. Lulz at eleven.

*Ripping off Africa is new*
Not in the slightest.
*Everyone likes Equatorial Guinea*
Not entirely surprising. Everyone likes China and most of the middle east, too. Not that MI6 and the Spanish weren't implicated in Thatcher's alleged coup attempt, mind.
*Mugabe is a smokescreen*
He's also an utter cad who's genuinely ruined a perfectly well-run state.