NationStates Jolt Archive

Like a virulent biblical plague, for the past seven years suicide has ravaged Japanese society, especially rural areas. Hiroshi Sakamoto, a retired local-government official and volunteer suicide councilor, bitterly blames the government for the current crisis. He told Asia Times Online, "Suicide has caused so much pain and damage to the less economically developed regions of Japan. Yet the government has done nothing. It feels like Tokyo just doesn't care about people living in small cities and towns. We simply don't count because we don't live in big cities. Regions like Hokkaido have been decimated by the recession.

and

Expressed in the international measurement for suicide, 27 out of every 100,000 Japanese people now take their own lives, giving Japan one of the highest rates among industrially advanced countries. Japan's current ratio of suicide to population size is about double that found in the United States or most European Union countries.

Based on provisional data for 2003, Japanese male and female suicide rates per 100,000 people are now roughly 40.2 for men and 14.9 for women, approaching levels normally witnessed in countries suffering severe economic hardships such as Russia, Latvia or Lithuania.


and

Japan's grim reputation as one of the world's suicide nations has been confirmed by statistics that show more than 30,000 people a year have taken their own lives since figures first began to rise in 1998. In 2006, there were 32,115 suicides - 25 per 100,000 people; nearly 100 people a day; one every 15 minutes. The most common hour of death is 5am for men and noon for women, after their families have left for work or school.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/FG28Dh01.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/24/japan.mentalhealth

So, whats wrong with Japan? Is it their culture? Is it recent economic recession? Should the government get involved? What do ya'll think?

it's Happening!

I suspect that this is caused by severe taco deficiency. *nod*

And burritos. Don't forget the burritos.

So, whats wrong with Japan? Is it their culture? Is it recent economic recession? Should the government get involved? What do ya'll think?

I suspect that this is caused by severe taco deficiency. *nod*

Its probably because Japan is an incredibly fucked up country. Just look at their media...I mean come on...its fubar.

We usually see this when there are economic downturns in industrial nations. They work hard and long hours in Japan and when you do that and then see it looks like it was all for nothing, it leads to just this type of thing.

I suspect that this is caused by severe taco deficiency. *nod*

I agree, KFC is a poor substitute.

We usually see this when there are economic downturns in industrial nations. They work hard and long hours in Japan and when you do that and then see it looks like it was all for nothing, it leads to just this type of thing.

I agree, but then how do you explain the recent trend in online suicide pacts?

The Japanese are known for killing them selves....well mainly warriors did that today.... i think if a japanese took his own life for good reasons then great i mean.... Its your life do with it what you please and as for gvt trying to stop it well... come on now heh maybe legalize prostitution and marijuana for a start? not only will you have happier people, im coming down more tourism for you!

Pfft, government's fault. It's Japan's culture of working yourself to death.

Darwinism at work?

I blame the media/schools/parents/government/corporations/sea turtles/science/religions/mods/atheists.

I am not sure what is going on in Japan, but if is contagious can we give it to china....ouououououououu!!!!

The Japanese are known for killing them selves....well mainly warriors did that today.... i think if a japanese took his own life for good reasons then great i mean.... Its your life do with it what you please and as for gvt trying to stop it well... come on now heh maybe legalize prostitution and marijuana for a start? not only will you have happier people, im coming down more tourism for you!

I mean, isn't suicide sort of a mental disorder. Like depression? Don't these people need help? you insensitive jerk.

I mean, isn't suicide sort of a mental disorder. Like depression?

No, it's just a behavior. It's certainly a strong indicator of mental disorder however.

No, it's just a behavior. It's certainly a strong indicator of mental disorder however.

I see. Maybe I should have followed that suicide thread before I decided to post this.

Pfft, government's fault. It's Japan's culture of working yourself to death.
This.

The japanese, on average, work fewer hours per year than the Mexicans or the Polish. And only about 2% more hours per year than Americans.

So, no, I don't think it is the length of the working week at all. I think it's fear that they are slipping into another lost decade. Have you seen the news lately?

Pfft, government's fault. It's Japan's culture of working yourself to death.

Yea, but the government is responsible for the economy, and therefore the government must take extreme measures!! /sarcasm

I agree. They put too much pressure on themselves to succeed, and when they fail they just break like some piece of glass instead of bending a little.

Darwinism at work?

I blame the media/schools/parents/government/corporations/sea turtles/science/religions/mods/atheists.

Somewhere, deep beneath the beneath the land of Japan, there is a great beast who embodies all of these characteristics. For millions of years it has slept, but nuclear testing has awakened it and now it seeks revenge by making 0.027% of the population kill themselves.

come on now heh maybe legalize prostitution and marijuana for a start? not only will you have happier people, im coming down more tourism for you!

It's true! A shallow existence is the single best way of preventing dissatisfaction with life!

Seppuku?

Somewhere, deep beneath the beneath the land of Japan, there is a great beast who embodies all of these characteristics. For millions of years it has slept, but nuclear testing has awakened it and now it seeks revenge by making 0.027% of the population kill themselves.

Gozzirra?

Just look, if you came to a vending machine for a snack, and got instead dirty knickers, then you went home, but got an hour late in a pedestrian traffic jam, then you turned on the TV, and on one channel there was octopus rape and on another knickers again, so you wanted to hear some lies on fox news, but got instead facts about Akihabara killer, and then you wanted to play with your pet, but it was electronic, because live pets are forbidden - would you really find suicide such a bad course of action?

I suspect that this is caused by severe taco deficiency. *nod*

Indeed. Last time I saw a real taco in this country years ago.

come on now heh maybe legalize prostitution and marijuana for a start?

Prostitution is legal in Japan to a higher degree than in the states. And even "illegal" forms are much more tolerated. One only has to take the tourist swing through the Tobita Shinchi "full service" red light district with the koban ("Police Box") square in the middle, to realise that it's de facto decriminalised.

The japanese, on average, work fewer hours per year than the Mexicans or the Polish. And only about 2% more hours per year than Americans.

So, no, I don't think it is the length of the working week at all. I think it's fear that they are slipping into another lost decade. Have you seen the news lately?

Indeed and indeed. I(t seems Japan's looking into the abyss of it's own sun-prime loan crisis, and then the boomer retirements....

Gozzirra?

Gojira, not Gozzirra.

Just look, if you came to a vending machine for a snack, and got instead dirty knickers, then you went home, but got an hour late in a pedestrian traffic jam, then you turned on the TV, and on one channel there was octopus rape and on another knickers again, so you wanted to hear some lies on fox news, but got instead facts about Akihabara killer, and then you wanted to play with your pet, but it was electronic, because live pets are forbidden - would you really find suicide such a bad course of action?

Yep, that's the way to react - pile up the stereotypes... :rolleyes:

The japanese, on average, work fewer hours per year than the Mexicans or the Polish. And only about 2% more hours per year than Americans.

So, no, I don't think it is the length of the working week at all. I think it's fear that they are slipping into another lost decade. Have you seen the news lately?

I think the Japanese are no more depressed than the Americans are, it's just that they generally have a better work ethic and so are more likely to get something done about it.

Suicide: Everybodies Doing It!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YCWojamzyVQ&feature=related

*facepalm*

Okay, i lived in japan for good part of life, i can try to clarify.

It is mostly due to failure. think of it this way, you forget to replace the toilet paper, your mom yells at you, and you feel a bad because you knew you should have replaced it. In japan that turns to shame. in a society that is so advanced like that, and with the history and culture, failures at things cause almost manic shame and depression. Every one has high expectations of you, if you don't meet those, you feel as if you failed, and that you let every body down. for instance, if every one thought you would be a great doctor, then you did everything, but didn't quite make it there, you would feel as if your life is wasted and that the honorable thing to do is die.
In america when this happens, you either blame every one else, become a bum, or just find something you are good at doing.

Think of it like this if my other examples don't help: starting at the age of 10, in grade school, or right after, every one starts cramming you for colleges. life goes like this:
wake up and eat
school
after school activities (in the school)
night cram school
homework
sleep
repeat.

some schools only get Sunday's off (like mine did) and go to school 6 out of 7 days of the week. plus summer break is only two weeks long or so.

just Look, If You Came To A Vending Machine For A Snack, And Got Instead Dirty Knickers, Then You Went Home, But Got An Hour Late In A pedestrian Traffic Jam, Then You Turned On The Tv, And On One Channel There Was Octopus Rape And On Another Knickers Again, So You Wanted To Hear Some Lies On Fox News, But Got Instead Facts About Akihabara Killer, And Then You Wanted To Play With Your Pet, But It Was Electronic, Because Live Pets Are Forbidden - Would You Really Find Suicide Such A Bad Course Of Action?

:d

Indeed and indeed. I(t seems Japan's looking into the abyss of it's own sun-prime loan crisis, and then the boomer retirements....


For what it's worth, where I sit, the japanese panic over bad loans is largely vicarious. I suppose they are different to americans though 'cos they already went through it, so they know how bad it can be.

Demographic time bomb over there though. Going to have to allow more immigration.

The post on stereotypes, I think, was supposed to be funny.

I'm sorry people are killing themselves but it is my firm belief that death is every man's privilege -- it is the expression of a human right to decide when and how you are going to die.

Yes, many people who commit suicide do so for the wrong reasons...or so we say, we're not in their heads, we don't know their value system.

It is selfish of us to force people who no longer want to live to do so because WE feel like they shouldn't do that, for whatever reason, whether it's "a sin" or because we'd be hurt by it or lonely or what have you. We are projecting our values upon others.

So where do you draw the line? Is being suicidal a de-facto diagnosis of mental illness? I know here in the states, they can lock you up against your will for being suicidal -- I don't believe in this nor agree with it because of my own philosophy, and if I were to decide to end my own life, I would have to do it alone becuase my friends and family would be duty-bound to prevent it.

As far as the Japanese folks go, maybe they should just buy a plane ticket and exile themselves from the country and come to the US, where they can be what they want to be, do what they want to do, and the person whose expectations they have to meet is merely themselves.

Before we jump all up in my grill about how that won't work, I understand that the Japanese society is based upon honor and family, and these aren't just words, they are an interwoven part of their existence. It is for this reason that suicide seems more appropriate than continuing to live in shame.

Who am I to judge?

Who are YOU to judge?

I'll offer suggestions, I'll ask, I'll cajole, I may even attempt to convince, someone not to kill themselves.

But I won't stop them. I don't have the right. And I don't believe anyone else does, either.

Death is every man's privilege. Let them be.

We can enlist in the military and go to as just a sure death as hanging, but because it's government sponsored and society approved, it's considered appropriate. But killing yourself in the quiet and comfort of your own home is not.

Why is that?

As far as mental illness...honestly, there's a reason why we have mental hospitals. Far as I'm concerned, if someone's mentally ill, ya gotta lock 'em up for the sake of the society. If they're suicidal, it kinda seems like a self-solving problem, doesn't it?

Call me insensitive, call me heartless. I don't have to justify my point of view any further than that's just my point of view. I don't have to tell you where I've been or what experience I have, because that's not the point.

To me, it's about human rights.

And in this case, the question to me is: "Who has the right to force you to live?"

GP

The post on stereotypes, I think, was supposed to be funny.

I'm sorry people are killing themselves but it is my firm belief that death is every man's privilege -- it is the expression of a human right to decide when and how you are going to die.

Yes, many people who commit suicide do so for the wrong reasons...or so we say, we're not in their heads, we don't know their value system.

It is selfish of us to force people who no longer want to live to do so because WE feel like they shouldn't do that, for whatever reason, whether it's "a sin" or because we'd be hurt by it or lonely or what have you. We are projecting our values upon others.

So where do you draw the line? Is being suicidal a de-facto diagnosis of mental illness? I know here in the states, they can lock you up against your will for being suicidal -- I don't believe in this nor agree with it because of my own philosophy, and if I were to decide to end my own life, I would have to do it alone becuase my friends and family would be duty-bound to prevent it.

As far as the Japanese folks go, maybe they should just buy a plane ticket and exile themselves from the country and come to the US, where they can be what they want to be, do what they want to do, and the person whose expectations they have to meet is merely themselves.

Before we jump all up in my grill about how that won't work, I understand that the Japanese society is based upon honor and family, and these aren't just words, they are an interwoven part of their existence. It is for this reason that suicide seems more appropriate than continuing to live in shame.

Who am I to judge?

Who are YOU to judge?

I'll offer suggestions, I'll ask, I'll cajole, I may even attempt to convince, someone not to kill themselves.

But I won't stop them. I don't have the right. And I don't believe anyone else does, either.

Death is every man's privilege. Let them be.

We can enlist in the military and go to as just a sure death as hanging, but because it's government sponsored and society approved, it's considered appropriate. But killing yourself in the quiet and comfort of your own home is not.

Why is that?

As far as mental illness...honestly, there's a reason why we have mental hospitals. Far as I'm concerned, if someone's mentally ill, ya gotta lock 'em up for the sake of the society. If they're suicidal, it kinda seems like a self-solving problem, doesn't it?

Call me insensitive, call me heartless. I don't have to justify my point of view any further than that's just my point of view. I don't have to tell you where I've been or what experience I have, because that's not the point.

To me, it's about human rights.

And in this case, the question to me is: "Who has the right to force you to live?"

GP

That is a very unhealthy attitude. I think most of the people who commit suicide in Japan could be happy if they weren't so recked with shame. So who then has the audacity to tell these people what to do with their lives? ME! I would counsel every one of them if I could. Tell them that they have things to live for, and give them hugs. I certainly know that there have been times in my life where I was forced to do something for my benefit that I wouldn't have done on my own. Maybe everyone shouldn't be in complete control of their life all the time.

As mentioned, it's the japanese culture. The concept of honor in there is quite fucked up. First of all, you have both personal and - more importantly - family honor. A student, for example, who fails at his studies brings dishonor to not only himself, but also his family. The fastest and "easiest" way to wash the dishonor away from your family is to kill yourself.

So, whats wrong with Japan? Is it their culture? Is it recent economic recession? Should the government get involved? What do ya'll think?
Does it possibly have something to do with suicide traditionally being an acceptable alternative to living with dishonour? Possibly losing one's job due to a recession could be looked at as dishonourable, no?

Does it possibly have something to do with suicide traditionally being an acceptable alternative to living with dishonour? Possibly losing one's job due to a recession could be looked at as dishonourable, no?

I'm not on the ground right there right now, but I would suspect that the recent spike in suicide is a real fear that the lost decade isn't over. Or, indeed, will never end.

I suspect that the west will see similar in teh near future.

We usually see this when there are economic downturns in industrial nations. They work hard and long hours in Japan and when you do that and then see it looks like it was all for nothing, it leads to just this type of thing.

That, and the pressures put on kids. Your whole life is decided on the basis of how well you do on your tests.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ed20070615a2.html

And yet the US wants to know how to make our kids work and perform like Japanese students. Makes ya think, huh?

I understand that the Japanese society is based upon honor and family, and these aren't just words, they are an interwoven part of their existence. It is for this reason that suicide seems more appropriate than continuing to live in shame.

Honour and family seem like two very good reasons not to commit suicide.

Or maybe I am just using common sense, sorry.

That, and the pressures put on kids. Your whole life is decided on the basis of how well you do on your tests.

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ed20070615a2.html

And yet the US wants to know how to make our kids work and perform like Japanese students. Makes ya think, huh?

Not really. Because japan is peanuts compare to the US.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/dvp/Suicide/SuicideDataSheet.pdf

I'm not on the ground right there right now, but I would suspect that the recent spike in suicide is a real fear that the lost decade isn't over. Or, indeed, will never end.

I suspect that the west will see similar in teh near future.
What is this lost decade business?

First off, Japan's suicide rate is not the highest, and especially the youth suicide rate has been blown out of proportion. [1 (http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/)]

And then, to actually look at the causes, most of the posts above are vast simplifications.

Suicidal Japanese have similar "risk factors" for suicide to those in other countries. These risk factors include psychiatric disorders, substance abuse, prior suicide attempts, lack of social support systems, male gender, older age, various kinds of loss, family history of suicide, accident proneness, etc. (Takahashi, 1992, 1993a, 1993b). Reports on suicide in Japan in English language often overemphasize the cultural difference.

Suicide is a complex human behavior that includes multiple unconscious processes and needs to be interpreted multidimentionally from a biopsychosocial perspective. Suicide should not be interpreted on a psychiatric or a cultural perspective alone but by an integrated view of these variables. We have presented a general overview of those unconscious and cultural factors involved in suicide in contemporary Japan, though by no means the only important aspect involved in any individual suicide.
http://www.japanpsychiatrist.com/Abstracts/Shinju.html

Yes, there is a cultural tolerance for suicide (note that this is in part due to Buddhist tolerances for suicide [2 (http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/becker.htm)]. And yes, there are suicides to "wash away shame".

However, there're other equally, or even more, important cultural factors. There is a strong aversion to mental health issues here. Not only are Japanese less likely to seek treatment than people in most industrial countries, there is less out there. [3 (http://psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/58/7/1013)],

There's also a strong cultural aversion towards bankruptcy. While the laws have been relaxed, and the number of personal bankruptcies has gone up, there's still a lot of people who are facing crushing debts but who still avoid bancruptcy.

And there's the whole "youth malaise" aspect of Japanese culture. It's blown out of porportion, as as said above, but there is a segment of Japanese youth culture that's in serious trouble. [4[]/URL]

Economic factors play a big part. I mentioned debts above. The so called "lost decade" has hit the average working man quite hard. (Another cultural aspect here is ageism - once a man reaches middle age, it's nigh impossible to find a decent new job.) In the countryside, there's been a hollowing effect that's comming home to "rest".


For what it's worth, where I sit, the japanese panic over bad loans is largely vicarious. I suppose they are different to americans though 'cos they already went through it, so they know how bad it can be.

Every time I see a light at the end of Japan's long dark tunnel, it seems to be yet another oncoming train...

Demographic time bomb over there though. Going to have to allow more immigration.

Indeed. Just last week, the LDP drafted [URL="http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20080613a2.html"]a proposal to push the immigrant population up to 10% (http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/41253,features,the-malaise-of-japans-nihilist-youth).

What is this lost decade business?

The "lost decade" (失われた10年 or "Ushinawareta jūnen") refers to the Japanese economy after the bursting of the economic bubble of the 1980's.

The Lost Decade - Japan's Economic Crisis


The economic miracle ended abruptly at the very start of the 1990s. In the late 1980s, abnormalities within the Japanese economic system had fuelled a massive wave of speculation by Japanese companies, banks and securities companies. Briefly, a combination of incredibly high land values and incredibly low interest rates led to a position in which credit was both easily available and extremely cheap. This led to massive borrowing, the proceeds of which were invested mostly in domestic and foreign stocks and securities.

Recognizing that this bubble was unsustainable (resting, as it did, on unrealizable land values - the loans were ultimately secured on land holdings), the Finance Ministry sharply raised interest rates. This popped the bubble in spectacular fashion, leading to a massive crash in the stock market. It also led to a debt crisis; a large proportion of the huge debts that had been run up turned bad, which in turn led to a crisis in the banking sector, with many banks having to be bailed out by the government.

Eventually, many become unsustainable, and a wave of consolidation took place (there are now only four national banks in Japan). Critically for the long-term economic situation, it meant many Japanese firms were lumbered with massive debts, affecting their ability for capital investment. It also meant credit became very difficult to obtain, due to the beleaguered situation of the banks; even now the official interest rate is at 0% and have been for several years, and despite this credit is still difficult to obtain.

Overall, this has led to the phenomenon known as the "lost decade"; economic expansion came to a total halt in Japan during the 1990s. The impact on everyday life has been rather muted, however. Unemployment runs reasonably high, but not at crisis levels (the official figure is a little under 5%, but this is a considerable underestimate - the real level is probably around twice that). This has combined with the traditional Japanese emphasis on frugality and saving (saving money is a cultural habit in Japan) to produce a quite limited impact on the average Japanese family, which continues much as it did in the period of the miracle.
http://www.japan-101.com/history/history_lost_decade.htm

Japan's economic performance since the early 1990s has been disappointing, both in relation to its own history and relative to the record of other major industrial countries. Real GDP growth has averaged 1 percent a year over the past 10 years, well below that in other OECD countries, and only one-fourth of the 4 percent annual average growth rate recorded in Japan in the 1980s. Japan, moreover, experienced three recessions in the past decade, in contrast to the trend in other industrial countries toward milder and less frequent downturns in the postwar period. Meanwhile, nominal GDP has fared even worse than real GDP (the level of nominal GDP in 2001 was approximately the same as in 1995), as moderate deflation has become entrenched. This poor economic performance has led some commentators to call the 1990s Japan's "lost decade."

It is now generally recognized that Japan's economic problems reflect a failure to deal proactively with the impact of the collapse in asset prices in the early 1990s. The bubble in Japanese stock prices burst in 1990 and, by mid-1992, equity prices had fallen by about 60 percent. Land prices began their downward spiral a year after stock prices and, while initially less precipitous than the drop in equity prices, the decline continued inexorably through the 1990s and early 2000s. The asset price collapse created problems for the banking system by impairing loan collateral and eroding bank capital—initially by wiping out hidden gains on stock holdings and subsequently through a direct feed through to banks' capital ratios under the new marking-to-market rules. Firms—which had borrowed heavily to finance expansive business strategies in the bubble years—found themselves with massive excess debt and capacity in the face of the ensuing economic slowdown.
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/nft/2003/japan/index.htm

Suicide isn't just an epidemic in Japan, it's a club (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyV3VD3pBiU).