NationStates Jolt Archive

Please notice, the subject of this thread is not any particular religion, and therefore none of you have the right to whine. Maybe Katganistan, but even that's a stretch.
What are the elements of a religion that distinguish it from a philosophy, cult, or even a fraternity? I could think of four:

Explains world. (Not only the natural world. It explains free will, why there is suffering, what the "good life" is, etc.)
Involves a Higher Thing, e.g., Yahweh, Brahma, Universe, Nature, Creative Force
Has specific traditions (not necessarily rituals)
Has basic moral framework


It's probably incomplete, but I was going for a short list. Any other ideas?

You could just sum the whole thing up with the word control...

I think you only need 3). 1) 2) 4) are all arguable.

I don't know that a religion necessarily needs a "basic moral framework". I'm open to correction on this but I don't think the classical Greco-Roman cults had much by way of moral philosophy, but specific rituals for invoking the favor of various deities.

I would argue that a religion is an attempt to explain "the world", as you say, in such a way that invites or demands reverence to a supernatural power/being. It includes rules/rituals necessary to please said power/being, which may or may not also serve as a moral code. As far as distinguishing religion from a cult, I think it's more or less the same distinction as between a terrorist and a freedom fighter. ;)

I think you only need 3). 1) 2) 4) are all arguable.

How can one have a religion without some kind of deity or supreme being? Without it you get a spiritual philosophy.

"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business." -Jesse Ventura

A religion is a set of beliefs about the nature, cause and purpose of life, the universe and everything(in b4 42), especially when they are thought of as being created by some kind of god/gods.

How can one have a religion without some kind of deity or supreme being? Without it you get a spiritual philosophy.

Buddhism.

How can one have a religion without some kind of deity or supreme being? Without it you get a spiritual philosophy.

Some Buddhists, some types of animism. There's nothing that requires a supreme being.

virgins.

Religion is a set of beliefs surrounding a deity, with practices and sets of guidelines to follow. I thinks that how I would sum it up.

Explains world. (Not only the natural world. It explains free will, why there is suffering, what the "good life" is, etc.)
Involves a Higher Thing, e.g., Yahweh, Brahma, Universe, Nature, Creative Force
Has specific traditions (not necessarily rituals)
Has basic moral framework



You have basically just described my microwave. Its so perfect and serene, its heats my food for me and sustains me. I love it and yet I find myself drawn to it, happily obeying its will...

How I define religion. (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Religion)

Also:


Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.

That's love.

Please notice, the subject of this thread is not any particular religion, and therefore none of you have the right to whine. Maybe Katganistan, but even that's a stretch.
What are the elements of a religion that distinguish it from a philosophy, cult, or even a fraternity? I could think of four:

Explains world. (Not only the natural world. It explains free will, why there is suffering, what the "good life" is, etc.)
Involves a Higher Thing, e.g., Yahweh, Brahma, Universe, Nature, Creative Force
Has specific traditions (not necessarily rituals)
Has basic moral framework


It's probably incomplete, but I was going for a short list. Any other ideas?

A way and means to organize all of the above.

A target for mockery :D

That's love.
That excuse has already been used by the Spanish Inquisition, Al Qaeda and any deranged psychopath who explained his or her horrifying crimes by referring to some mythological or ideological system.

People.

now what the number threshold is. I don't have a clue.

Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more.That's love.That excuse has already been used by the Spanish Inquisition, Al Qaeda and any deranged psychopath who explained his or her horrifying crimes by referring to some mythological or ideological system.

Admittedly my first comment was rather "Captain Obvious" and unfunny, but altogether....

Religion: a faith in a power, most often supernatural, which (it is claimed) can benefit those who believe in, or at least acknowledge, said power, and which is often accompanied by moral guidelines or rules.

And that's about as concrete as it gets.

What separates humans From bacteria(atheists)

My, the trolls are out in force tonight.

I disagree with -1-; it doesn't explain anything at all. Science explains things, saying things are the way they are because of "God" or "dwidhoqhudhq" doesn't present any knowledge.

Please notice, the subject of this thread is not any particular religion, and therefore none of you have the right to whine. Maybe Katganistan, but even that's a stretch.
What are the elements of a religion that distinguish it from a philosophy, cult, or even a fraternity? I could think of four:

Explains world. (Not only the natural world. It explains free will, why there is suffering, what the "good life" is, etc.)
Involves a Higher Thing, e.g., Yahweh, Brahma, Universe, Nature, Creative Force
Has specific traditions (not necessarily rituals)
Has basic moral framework


It's probably incomplete, but I was going for a short list. Any other ideas?


how are these not cult-like qualities?

It's all about orders of intentionality.

Personal belief, at the 3rd order, can imply ‘I believe that God wants me to act with righteous intent.’ These can be made into a social phenomenon, as opposed to purely personal, by adding another layer ‘I intend that you believe that God wants us to act with righteous intent.’ But it seems that for religion as we really know it, we need to get up to the 5th order, to make it communal, as opposed to purely social, and this may explain why we have the 5th orders, since in our everyday relationships we don’t get much above the 3rd.

http://www.brlsi.org/proceed05/belief0205.html

most religions seem to hate sex or have various taboos regarding it. Sexual frustration FTW!

"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business." -Jesse Ventura

Jesse "the Body" said that?

Jesse "the Body" said that?

Unfortunately, yes, my "wonderful" former governor has said that... as he drove my state into an incredible amount of debt.

This one's for Jesse... :upyours:

Religion is a construct. It was developed in order to give form and structure to the worship of a deity. Once it was established, the deity was discarded and the religion became the end rather than the means to the end.

i think religion has a specific dogma and its all about the warshipping of a deity, philosophies simply give guidelines under wich you can choose to live spiritually.

As much as I generally don't agree with Dawkins on his position regarding religion, I do actually think his "meme" construct is a useful one for the purpose of allegory, for lack of anything better to use to describe it. With memes in mind, I think a good definition of a religion is as a memetic organism with people as its host and spirituality (whether a particular variety thereof or a reaction against) as its medium of growth. The study of Religion, rather than a religion, correspondingly deals with the relationship between social phenomena and spiritual ideals.

There're obvious weaknesses in this definition, but it does overgenerate what we consider to be Religion rather than undergenerate, which is usually a good starting point.

Religion is a way for the useless to manipulate the productive into supporting them, eventually allowing them to become the priestly class.

Jesse "the Body" said that?

In an interview when he was the Minnesota Governor. He had some difficulties managing the edit function between his brain and his mouth. I like him. :)

Unfortunately, yes, my "wonderful" former governor has said that... as he drove my state into an incredible amount of debt.

This one's for Jesse... :upyours:

Let's be fair; around that time, every state got driven deep into debt.

What are the elements of a religion that distinguish it from a philosophy, cult, or even a fraternity?

religions and cults are not actually distinguishable. at least not into entirely separate categories; i might be willing to say that they are just largely overlapping categories.

i'd say that what makes something a religion as opposed to some random set of beliefs or a non-religious club is that its beliefs center on some superhuman power that has sway over the world which must be appeased or appealed to through rituals.

this, of course, shows much of sports to be religion, which i think is one of its selling points as a definition.

Religion is set of rules, traditions, ideals and conducts that people follow (out of fear or voluntarily) in order to get some kind of benefit, ranging from hope for better afterlife to favor of spirit (from lesser spirits all the way to the creator depending on religion).

While all faiths most likely have a lot of people who honestly believe in their respective bullshit, religion has always been and sadly will most likely always be just another way to control people. There will always be people who only join the religion to gain personal benefit. As historical example, the priesthood of catholic church was infamous for their gold hoarding. For more modern example, the muslim terrorist leaders who abuse their faith to gain people to follow their own agenda.

As for what's the difference between religion and cult? Acceptance and size. Cult is a small and/or less accepted version of religion. Religion is more larger and more widely accepted version of cult. Where the line between cult and religion goes depends on the context.

Cult can also be part of a religion, for example the greek gods and mythology formed a religion, while each of the gods had their own personal cults.

Well, these are my views anyway :D

this, of course, shows much of sports to be religion, which i think is one of its selling points as a definition.

I have to agree with you there. There are very few religious extremists that terrify me more than a football fanatic (American or international).

I think you only need 3). 1) 2) 4) are all arguable.
But plenty of groups have traditions: clubs, private companies, governments, etc. There are plenty of traditions passed down in my family, but I wouldn't call us all "New Limaconists."
"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business." -Jesse Ventura

Two questions:

Could you remind me again how Jesse Ventura got elected the governor of a midwestern state?
What do you consider unorganized religion?

A target for mockery :D
And usually, an earning, deserved target for mockery.

Two questions:

Could you remind me again how Jesse Ventura got elected the governor of a midwestern state? Proof that God has a sense of humor.
What do you consider unorganized religion? Calvinball



:)

Let's be fair; around that time, every state got driven deep into debt.

Even Alaska?
http://community.adn.com/adn/node/125694

Even Alaska?

Probably. Because if the Federal Government don't make laws that force the states to spend money they don't have on security that makes nothing safer then the terrorists win. *nod*

At least that what the line in 2002-2004.

Please notice, the subject of this thread is not any particular religion, and therefore none of you have the right to whine. Maybe Katganistan, but even that's a stretch.
What are the elements of a religion that distinguish it from a philosophy, cult, or even a fraternity? I could think of four:

Explains world. (Not only the natural world. It explains free will, why there is suffering, what the "good life" is, etc.)
Involves a Higher Thing, e.g., Yahweh, Brahma, Universe, Nature, Creative Force
Has specific traditions (not necessarily rituals)
Has basic moral framework


It's probably incomplete, but I was going for a short list. Any other ideas?

Well in Philosophy i believe there are a number of explanations or disagreements about freewill (determinism or Libertarianism for example).

I'm not so sure about moral framework, i mean some religions are just exuses to gut another man's insides to get into valhalla or something like that.

specific traditions? what do you mean.

I suppose the higher being thing will do for now, although i'm sure there's some religions that don't have a God as such, Buddhism maybe?

I think a few additions could be religion can be a combination of old traditions about various unknown happenings and trying to explain them in a simple manner, this is then (with enough time and/or money) complicated when it's written into large books.
Now that's if you consider the usual idea of what religion is, then again i could point to things like going to sports events or supporting a particular ideology as religion.
What i mean is, having faith in a particular thing could be called a religion so....believing science can cure all human problems or going to rock concerts (notice large crowds, certain clothing styles worn, certain drugs or alcohol being consumed, effectively praying to the band who play) or ah something along those lines.
oh and they involve large groups of people, the more people the better for the religion perhaps not for the betterment of the people but that's another story.

Religions aren't separated from philosophy. They are philisophical. They address the meaning of life and should be logically based on human experience. They should provide logical answers to questions involving anything that exists.

Cults generally don't hold up to any philisophical scrutiny or offer any logical explanations for experience and fraternities aren't philisophical in nature.

Two questions:

Could you remind me again how Jesse Ventura got elected the governor of a midwestern state? Proof that God has a sense of humor.

That makes sense. I have a suspicion that the reason those in heaven experience eternal bliss is because they get to watch the antics of the living.

What do you consider unorganized religion? Calvinball



:)
Discordian, I wager.

A set of beliefs revolving around some type of supernatural. It doesnt have to be god. Just something "otherworldly" I guess.

A set of beliefs revolving around some type of supernatural. It doesnt have to be god. Just something "otherworldly" I guess.

It doesn't even have to be supernatural. Many people have made a religion of money. Others have made political theories, like communism, into religions.