NationStates Jolt Archive

EU agrees to lift 5-year-old sanctions on Cuba
Posted on Fri, Jun. 20, 2008print email
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By JAN SLIVA
Associated Press Writer

Javier Galeano / AP Photo
A young man walks in a street in Havana, Thursday, June 19, 2008. The European Union agreed to lift its diplomatic sanctions against Cuba, but imposed tough conditions on the communist island to maintain sanction-free relations, officials said.
Gallery | Fidel Castro shown on Cuban TV
EU agrees to lift 5-year-old sanctions on Cuba

BRUSSELS, Belgium -- The European Union on Thursday agreed to lift its diplomatic sanctions against Cuba, but imposed tough conditions on the communist island to maintain sanction-free relations, officials said.

The U.S., which has maintained a decades-long trade embargo against Cuba, criticized the move, saying there were no significant signs the communist island was easing a dictatorship. An independent analyst predicted it would have no affect on U.S. policy toward the Caribbean island.

EU External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner said the bloc felt it had to encourage changes in Cuba after Raul Castro took over as the head of the country's government from his ailing brother Fidel.

"There will be very clear language also on what the Cubans still have to do ... releasing prisoners, really working on human rights questions," she told reporters at an EU summit. "There will be a sort of review to see whether indeed something will have happened."

The largely symbolic decision takes effect Monday. The diplomatic sanctions, which banned high-level visits to EU nations by Cuban officials, have not been in force since 2005. They were imposed in 2003 following the arrests of dozens of dissidents but suspended two years later.

In Havana, state television mentioned the EU's decision briefly but did not give any government reaction.

Leading Cuban dissident Oswaldo Paya said he hopes the move does not signify the EU' approval of Raul Castro's government.

"This regime has not announced any change that is significant for rights or liberty, and we know we have to conquer that ourselves," Paya said.

As part of its action, the EU approved a set of conditions on Cuba in return for sanction-free relations. They include the release of all political prisoners; access for Cubans to the Internet; and a double-track approach for all EU delegations arriving in Cuba, allowing them to meet both opposition figures and members of the Cuban government.

Officials said the bloc will evaluate Cuba's progress in a year's time and could take new measures if human rights do not improve.

The U.S. expressed its opposition.

"We're disappointed," White House deputy press secretary Gordon Johndroe said. "We think the Castros need to take a number of steps to improve the human rights conditions for ordinary Cubans before any sanctions are lifted."

State Department Deputy spokesman Tom Casey said the United States has recently seen "some very minor cosmetic changes" in Cuba. "We certainly don't see any kind of fundamental break with the Castro dictatorship that would give us reason to believe that now would be the time to lift sanctions or otherwise fundamentally alter our policies," he said.

Peter De Shazo, Americas Program director at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, said the "decision will not affect the U.S. position toward Cuba" because the policy is largely fixed by legislation with key changes conditioned on a transition to democracy.

Czech Foreign Minister Karel Schwarzenberg said it was well known that certain circles in the United States wanted the EU sanctions to be maintained, but he said "we felt the need to find our own solution."

Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt said the lifting of sanctions in no way means the EU was getting weak on Cuba.

"We haven't softened our approach," Bildt said. "It's a repressive regime. ...Now we are very explicit on what we want. We want democratic changes."

He said the EU would push strongly for Cuban authorities to open up their economy, liberate Internet access, and release political prisoners.

The EU sanctions were introduced after Cuba's government rounded up 75 dissidents in 2003. Sixteen of those arrested have been released on medical parole and another four were freed last month into forced exile in Spain. But more than 200 dissidents are still serving jail terms.

Cuba has insisted the EU sanctions be eliminated completely, and said the unilateral action violated its sovereignty.

Asked if lifting EU sanctions would weaken U.S. sanctions, Casey said simply, "We'll see," but offered no assessment.

Associated Press writer Constant Brand contributed to this report.

In Keeping with NS Jolt Co Uk Policys my comments on my introduction page will be posted on my second post.

WHY must Cubans "open up economy"? I understand demand for democracy, but EU makes this sound like "open economy" is PART of democracy, we have same BULLSHIT in Africa from IMF and World Bank, it is exploitation, rape. "Open economy" is not a moral demand, but EU make it in moral terms. At Live 8 concert with famous philanthropists you have your Bono and your Bob Geldof demanding that African countries are LOANED money IF they "open up" economies. Nonsense, plain nonsense, speech could have been made by Tony Blair.
Europe owes Africa REPARATIONS, no strings attached, not LOANS.
Same lies told to Cuban people will bring same result.

Happy days. Decent market to invest in, and the more high-quality cigars I have access to, the better. Might improve the lot of the Cubans, too.

Ugh. At least the US is keeping the Embargo.

Ugh. At least the US is keeping the Embargo.
The same US who operate ILLEGAL PRISON CAMP on Cuban soil? Moral crusaders, you are.

Ugh. At least the US is keeping the Embargo.

Yes, considering how marvellously effective it's been over the past 40 years.

Yes, considering how marvellously effective it's been over the past 40 years.
Hey, if your gonna be idiots, at least be relaible idiots, right? Right?

Ugh. At least the US is keeping the Embargo.
Of course, because remember, kids, if you want people to turn capitalist, you have to keep them extremely poor so that they can't afford to buy consumer goods and have some experience with the market economy!

In keeping with NS Jolt Co UK forum rules my comments to my introduction page.

The Cuban government will keep on harrassing, arresting and sending political dissidents into exile.

The Cuban governemt will not allow EU delegations to meet with Cuban political dissidents.

The Cuban government will not allow Cubans access to the internet without political safeguards.

The Cuban government may release political dissidents with conditions, like no anti government political activites peaceful or otherwise, under parole, as is the policy now.

The New EU policy has no enforcement conditions.

The EU policy review in a year is a long time, it should have been in 6 months as before when they suspended the petty political sanctions.

Watch many of our fellow nations on NS defend, deny, and excuse the Cuban government dictatorship for life.

Why because the Cuban government is a dictatorship plain and simple.

Of course, because remember, kids, if you want people to turn capitalist, you have to keep them extremely poor so that they can't afford to buy consumer goods and have some experience with the market economy!

Only for the government to seize such goods before they reach them, insuring the only the current regime will become richer! Yay! :rolleyes:

The Cuban government will keep on harrassing, arresting and sending political dissidents into exile.
Indeed. Hopefully this is going to change soon.
The Cuban governemt will not allow EU delegations to meet with Cuban political dissidents.
What're they going to do about it if they're in exile, though?
The Cuban government will not allow Cubans access to the internet without political safeguards.
Same with any government. Yeah, fine, it might not say "you can't go on this site because it was made by baddies", but as soon as you look at it, you're going to be monitored.
The Cuban government may release political dissidents with conditions, like no anti government political activites peaceful or otherwise, under parole, as is the policy now.
So? Better than keeping them locked up forever 'just to make sure', no?
The New EU policy has no enforcement conditions.
So? What're we going to do?

"Stop being a dictatorship or we'll cut off trade"
"Fair doos, then the mobile phone network will be entirely under our jurisdiction and not controlled mainly by the Italians"
"Err... we'll invade or something"
"No, no you won't"
"Ach... we'll say you're a bad country"
"We'll just not report that to the public"
"Err..."
"Yeah, exactly"
The EU policy review in a year is a long time, it should have been in 6 months as before when they suspended the petty political sanctions.

Watch many of our fellow nations on NS defend, deny, and excuse the Cuban government dictatorship for life.

Why because the Cuban government is a dictatorship plain and simple.
Actually, I'm pretty sure people defend the Cubans for the same reason that the EU is opening up trade with the island. "Up yours, the US, we're tired of your bullshit, and Cuba is a handy proxy to express this".

Only for the government to seize such goods before they reach them, insuring the only the current regime will become richer! Yay! :rolleyes:
Uhu, I don't really see why the US doesn't try lifting the embargo to see if this does actually happen, to be quite honest. What's the worst that can happen? The US profits. The best that can happen? The US profits, the Cuban people make it clear they're tired of being poor, and the Cuban government changes to become pro-capitalism.

The EU sanctions that were imposed then suspended were minor petty political sanctions.

The fact that the EU says they will include language conditions of what is expected proves they dont beleive the Cuban government will make real democratic reforms.

Multi party democratic elections like you Europeans enjoy in your native nations with all its merits and non merits.

Stop excusing, defending and denying the Cuban dictatorship for life.

Many of our leftist NS nation friends have defended a government that for years have not allowed Cubans to buy many consumer goods, forcing some to buy them in the Illegal black market. That is the type of government they seem to support for their nation of origin and yours.

A dictatorship government that would take all your political rights away.

Uhu, I don't really see why the US doesn't try lifting the embargo to see if this does actually happen, to be quite honest. What's the worst that can happen? The US profits. The best that can happen? The US profits, the Cuban people make it clear they're tired of being poor, and the Cuban government changes to become pro-capitalism.


Your post sounds logical. Yet the EU trades with the Cuban government, sends over a million tourists, invests in Cuba and the Cuban government has not changed its dictatorship ways.

Cuban Americans send Cuban American family remittances, care packages, ect, ect, visit thier relatives despite the travel time restrictions.

Cuban Americans can send up to $1200 Dollars a year.

What more proof does the EU and the world need to know the Cuban government is a dictatorship that does not want to change its dictatorship ways?

The EU sanctions that were imposed then suspended were minor petty political sanctions.

The fact that the EU says they will include language conditions of what is expected proves they dont beleive the Cuban government will make real democratic reforms.

Multi party democratic elections like you Europeans enjoy in your native nations with all its merits and non merits.

Stop excusing, defending and denying the Cuban dictatorship for life.

Many of our leftist NS nation friends have defended a government that for years have not allowed Cubans to buy many consumer goods, forcing some to buy them in the Illegal black market. That is the type of government they seem to support for their nation of origin and yours.

A dictatorship government hat would take all your political rights away.

I'm not defending the Cuban government; I just don't see how lifting sanctions would be anything but good for the Cuban people. At worst, their lives will stay the same.

Your post sounds logical. Yet the EU trades with the Cuban government, sends over a million tourists, invests in Cuba and the Cuban government has not changed its dictatorship ways. Thats the proof.

Embargoes don't work either, so why not just trade with Cuba? You haven't made a single point as to how an embargo is better than open trade for the situation of the Cuban people.

WHY must Cubans "open up economy"? I understand demand for democracy, but EU makes this sound like "open economy" is PART of democracy, we have same BULLSHIT in Africa from IMF and World Bank, it is exploitation, rape. "Open economy" is not a moral demand, but EU make it in moral terms. At Live 8 concert with famous philanthropists you have your Bono and your Bob Geldof demanding that African countries are LOANED money IF they "open up" economies. Nonsense, plain nonsense, speech could have been made by Tony Blair.
Europe owes Africa REPARATIONS, no strings attached, not LOANS.
Same lies told to Cuban people will bring same result.
The economy isn't part of democracy, you're right as far as that goes. But the economic freedom to make a living without the government's approval goes a long way to removing the state's control over the individual. The remaining communist economies of the world offer nothing in their defense except tired old slogans. The real goal is to keep power for the current masters by controlling everything about their citizens' lives, right down to the grains of rice per month they are allowed to eat and the number of pairs of shoes they are allowed to have. Reparations will just go straight into the state's coffers and build palaces for the nomenklatura, it's not as though we haven't seen the effects of free money given to unfree governments before.

Your post sounds logical. Yet the EU trades with the Cuban government, sends over a million tourists, invests in Cuba and the Cuban government has not changed its dictatorship ways.
Because Fidel isn't dead yet. When he is, we'll see a change in policy.
Cuban Americans send Cuban American family remittances, care packages, ect, ect, visit thier relatives despite the travel time restrictions.

Cuban Americans can send up too $1200 Dollars a year.
Err awesome or something.
What more proof does the EU and the world need to know the Cuban government is a dictatorship that does not want to change its dictatorship ways?
Well seeing as lack psychic powers, it's a bit hard to predict if it'll change or not. Raul seems to want to change things, as shown by his opening up of the markets a little inside Cuba.

Still don't see how keeping Cuba under an embargo is a very good idea.

Embargoes don't work either, so why not just trade with Cuba? You haven't made a single point as to how an embargo is better than open trade for the situation of the Cuban people.

Because opening trade with a communist dictatorship that will not make market reforms is akin to the absurd right-wing trickle down theory of economics. Trade won't be "free", it will just increase the earning power of the dictator. The situation in Cuba already demonstrates this. The vast majority of people aren't needed for the part of the economy that receives income from foreign exchanges, mainly tourism. Except for a few whores and maids, the average Cuban doesn't benefit from it. Of course the argument for the 1959 Revolution was that nobody in Cuba was benefitting from foreign investment besides those same whores, maids and Batista. Why is it better to enrich whores, maids and the Castros?

Cubans need the freedom to take jobs and set up small businesses without fear of confiscation and imprisonment. That's the way they scrape by right now, except that they're breaking the law and the state can use their survival measures as an excuse to throw them in prison if they appear as a threat to the status quo. It's a profoundly corrupt society.

Because opening trade with a communist dictatorship that will not make market reforms is akin to the absurd right-wing trickle down theory of economics. Trade won't be "free", it will just increase the earning power of the dictator. The situation in Cuba already demonstrates this. The vast majority of people aren't needed for the part of the economy that receives income from foreign exchanges, mainly tourism. Except for a few whores and maids, the average Cuban doesn't benefit from it. Of course the argument for the 1959 Revolution was that nobody in Cuba was benefitting from foreign investment besides those same whores, maids and Batista. Why is it better to enrich whores, maids and the Castros?

Cubans need the freedom to take jobs and set up small businesses without fear of confiscation and imprisonment. That's the way they scrape by right now, except that they're breaking the law and the state can use their survival measures as an excuse to throw them in prison if they appear as a threat to the status quo. It's a profoundly corrupt society.

You're making a lot of assumptions, but before I begin to address those, you still haven't described how opening up trade links would be worse for ordinary Cubans than the embargo is now.

Ugh. At least the US is keeping the Embargo.

The same US that openly trades with China and Saudi Arabia?

The same US that openly trades with China and Saudi Arabia?

Don't remind me. *Puts head in hands. Cries*

Don't remind me. *Puts head in hands. Cries*

Seems like everytime I talk to you you're crying (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13780779&postcount=23).....

Actually, the US embargo probably benefits Cuba. Just look how the US treats poor Caribbean nations it doesn't embargo.

The second that thing is lifted Cuba is going to be used as a dumping ground for unwanted chicken carcasses.

Seems like everytime I talk to you you're crying (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13780779&postcount=23).....

Face it - you're evil.

Don't remind me. *Puts head in hands. Cries*
Uhu... the economic benefits are massive and if the US didn't go into those markets, the EU would be even cheerier.

yay I guess but I don't see what lifting a ban on Cuban politicians traveling to the E.U will do :confused:

they live in the Caribbean for Christ sakes

As part of its action, the EU approved a set of conditions on Cuba in return for sanction-free relations. They include the release of all political prisoners; access for Cubans to the Internet; and a double-track approach for all EU delegations arriving in Cuba, allowing them to meet both opposition figures and members of the Cuban government.

this is why we should rule the world

SNIP

hmm so if we argue with you it means we are godless commies who only do it because we have a hard on for suffering?

The same US that openly trades with China and Saudi Arabia?

don't be silly, every knows they are our allies against the Commie-Muslim axis of evil!

It really is time to end this embargo. The Cold War ended almost 20 years ago now. Cuba no longer poses a major national security threat to the US. Hell, it probably never did. History has demonstrated that sanctions are terribly ineffective at encouraging regime change. Consider Myanmar, where the ruling junta has been utterly unmoved by US economic pressure. When we level a sanction against a country, the idea is to push the government there to reform. Unfortunately, the government can just shift the burden of the costs away from themselves and onto the general population, especially if the government isn't too democratic. Worse, levelling sanctions gives the government an easy scapegoat - the sanctioners.

As has been mentioned, lifting sanctions can't make things any worse for the average Cuban, very likely it will lead to a general increase in the standard of living.

Now that the EU has lifted the minor petty political sanctions that it suspended some time ago. But has included language for democratic conditions without any enforcement. To be reviewed not in six months as before, but a whole year.

Their should be no more harassment, arrests or exile of political dissidents who demonstrate against the Cuban government in a peaceful manner as opposed to a violent manner.

But as the EU leaders know those actions will continue. I will post those incidents on this thread as they occur for the record.

Sat 06-21-08.

Now that the EU has lifted the minor petty political sanctions that it suspended some time ago. But has included language for democratic conditions without any enforcement. To be reviewed not in six months as before, but a whole year.

Their should be no more harassment, arrests or exile of political dissidents who demonstrate against the Cuban government in a peaceful manner as opposed to a violent manner.

But as the EU leaders know those actions will continue. I will post those incidents on this thread as they occur for the record.

Sat 06-21-08.
Je m'en fiche. Would rather talk and trade with them and improve the lot for the average Cuban by providing money for their economy instead of tell them to fuck off because they imprison the odd whiner.

Je m'en fiche. Would rather talk and trade with them and improve the lot for the average Cuban by providing money for their economy instead of tell them to fuck off because they imprison the odd whiner.

So Yootopia: If your nation of origin were under a dictatorship government for life. And you lived in exile. I can understand wanting to send money to your family to help them out, that is only natural. But you would still wish that your family live under a dictatorship for life. That would not matter to you, as long as you keep sending them money to live under that dictatorship.

Cuban Americans do send money, care packages and visit despite the travel time restrictions. Cuban Americans can send up to $1200 a year.

I will post those incidents on this thread as they occur for the record.

haven't you got like a life to lead and stuff instead of constantly bitching about this exile business?

San Blanco;13783057']It really is time to end this embargo. The Cold War ended almost 20 years ago now. Cuba no longer poses a major national security threat to the US. Hell, it probably never did. History has demonstrated that sanctions are terribly ineffective at encouraging regime change. Consider Myanmar, where the ruling junta has been utterly unmoved by US economic pressure. When we level a sanction against a country, the idea is to push the government there to reform. Unfortunately, the government can just shift the burden of the costs away from themselves and onto the general population, especially if the government isn't too democratic. Worse, levelling sanctions gives the government an easy scapegoat - the sanctioners.

As has been mentioned, lifting sanctions can't make things any worse for the average Cuban, very likely it will lead to a general increase in the standard of living.
It's not a threat to the USA per se, but the communist government there is still very much a blow to US prestige. It's like an itch they've not been able to scratch for fifty years. Which is why any talk of lifiting the embargo would be interpreted by a great many Americans (or at least, American politicians) as being Soft on Tyranny (c) while applying doublethink and trading with China, Vietnam and Saudi Arabia. Plus, the Cuban dissident vote is important in a swing state.

Personally, I think that if a government policy has failed in every respect for fifty years, it's time for a rethink.

Havana and Miami are, historically, sister cities. The aberration of their separation as a result of poor policies on the part of Eisenhower (and antecedent administrations) and the Castros, and the inability of these groups to be able to successfully communicate with each other, and deal with each other properly.

It is long past due for the Cuban government to lift the intense societal, political and economic restrictions, and the pretense of national emergency from the shoulders of a long suffering people. Further, the Cuban government and Communist party should cease to act as the personal fief of the brothers Castro.

In turn, the US would be well advised to liberalize our relations with the island. In Zenith and Eclipse, a report from the US State Department, released in 1998, it was concluded that the only material impact the embargo has had has been to increase the costs of transportation on the island, while simultaneously providing the crisis justification the Castro brothers have used so powerfully for so long. It has not significantly contributed to the economic hardship Cuba has suffered (largely, the result of their own doing), and has not increased the likelihood of a regime change in that country.

As it stands, American pharmaceutical and agricultural firms have been making a significant amount of money as a benefit of the Trade Sanctions Reform and Export Enhancement Act of 2000. As a result, the US is the single largest agricultural trading partner with Cuba, and the sixth largest trading partner overall. Similar reforms in other fields, especially non-luxury fields, could contribute positively to American firms and their employees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Jai-Alai
I will post those incidents on this thread as they occur for the record.

haven't you got like a life to lead and stuff instead of constantly bitching about this exile business?

If your nation of origin had a dictatorship government like Cuba. And you live in exile you would be constantly bitching too. At how the world dosent care and supports that dictatorship government.

Just like Yootopia.

It just proves my point.

Newer Burmecia : If the embargo policy has not worked because of that world wide support, the policy of appeasement of that dictatorship has not worked either.

If your nation of origin had a dictatorship government like Cuba. And you live in exile you would be constantly bitching too. At how the world dosent care and supports that dictatorship government

*yawn* I can assure you I would not spam the internet nor would I want to pointlessly blockade my nation of origin under the logic of "just 50 more years now!"

Newer Burmecia : If the embargo policy has not worked because of that world wide support, the policy of appeasement of that dictatorship has not worked either.

actually Cuba has been under sanction quite heavily in the past but we just like got over it and stuff

It just proves my point of nation persons and real nations that dont care.

That defend, excuse and or deny the Cuban dictatorship government for life.

Have to go for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Jai-Alai
Now that the EU has lifted the minor petty political sanctions that it suspended some time ago. But has included language for democratic conditions without any enforcement. To be reviewed not in six months as before, but a whole year.

Their should be no more harassment, arrests or exile of political dissidents who demonstrate against the Cuban government in a peaceful manner as opposed to a violent manner.

But as the EU leaders know those actions will continue. I will post those incidents on this thread as they occur for the record.

Sat 06-21-08.

So Yootopia: If your nation of origin were under a dictatorship government for life. And you lived in exile. I can understand wanting to send money to your family to help them out, that is only natural. But you would still wish that your family live under a dictatorship for life. That would not matter to you, as long as you keep sending them money to live under that dictatorship.

Cuban Americans do send money, care packages and visit despite the travel time restrictions. Cuban Americans can send up to $1200 a year.
How is any of this relevant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miami Jai-Alai
So Yootopia: If your nation of origin were under a dictatorship government for life. And you lived in exile. I can understand wanting to send money to your family to help them out, that is only natural. But you would still wish that your family live under a dictatorship for life. That would not matter to you, as long as you keep sending them money to live under that dictatorship.
Cuban Americans do send money, care packages and visit despite the travel time restrictions. Cuban Americans can send up to $1200 a year.
How is any of this relevant?

How is any of this relevant?

It is based on our back and forths. I dont dislike you Yootopia, even if we disagree, I dont have any reasons too, I am sure the feeling is returned to me also.

I see you are off line for now, hope you see this post or an NS friend lets you know.

I have made a few good post-points on my recent posts.

I have made my statements clear to you all.

Please no more back and forths for now, I really have to go for now for sure.

The thread and Poll is open for posts and votes for those that wish do so.

So Yootopia: If your nation of origin were under a dictatorship government for life. And you lived in exile. I can understand wanting to send money to your family to help them out, that is only natural. But you would still wish that your family live under a dictatorship for life. That would not matter to you, as long as you keep sending them money to live under that dictatorship.

Cuban Americans do send money, care packages and visit despite the travel time restrictions. Cuban Americans can send up to $1200 a year.
Because 40 years of sanctioning Cuba has totally benefited everyone. Cuba is a free and prosperous nation; Fidel Castro was ousted shortly after they were enacted; and cane sugar is cheap and prosperous and there is no such thing as corn syrup.

Oh wait, I meant Bizarro world Cuba, are we talking about normal world Cuba where 40 years of embargo have done jack shit but let Castro dig in?

Fricking softies. Can't they just leave Cuba isolated until the people wise up and realize that communism is epic fail, and rebel on a large scale?

Fricking softies. Can't they just leave Cuba isolated until the people wise up and realize that communism is epic fail, and rebel on a large scale?
No, because that won't happen.

No, because that won't happen.

Oh yeah, I forgot, they can't rebel b/c they don't have private gun ownership.... Oh well, I guess they'll suffer under the ppression of communism forever then.

It is long past due for the Cuban government to lift the intense societal, political and economic restrictions, and the pretense of national emergency from the shoulders of a long suffering people.
I say, let them suffer...for at least they have the decency to suffer long (http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=145&a=1912).

As opposed to, for example, a great caribbean democracy with liberal economic policies (http://www.haitiaction.net/News/HIP/3_22_8/3_22_8.html) which is absolutely in no need of liberation as they're not ruled by commie bastards.

(by life-expectancy: Cuba 38th/37th, Haiti 150th/149th...reference: USA 29th/38th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy))

Nice to see Western hypocrisy at work here.

"Democracy" = any rundown deregulated garbage dump nation where the people live in squalor but foreign investment is unhindered.

"Dictatorship" = a popular nation where the people own their own land and political power, have no foreign debt and possess self-sufficiency and free social services.

Oh yeah, I forgot, they can't rebel b/c they don't have private gun ownership.... Oh well, I guess they'll suffer under the ppression of communism forever then.
Oh of course. Because guns will solve everything and won't just end in a bloody civil war. Yes.
Nice to see Western hypocrisy at work here.

"Democracy" = any rundown deregulated garbage dump nation where the people live in squalor but foreign investment is unhindered.

"Dictatorship" = a popular nation where the people own their own land and political power, have no foreign debt and possess self-sufficiency and free social services.
You crack me up.

Uhu, I don't really see why the US doesn't try lifting the embargo to see if this does actually happen, to be quite honest. What's the worst that can happen? The US profits. The best that can happen? The US profits, the Cuban people make it clear they're tired of being poor, and the Cuban government changes to become pro-capitalism.

we will lift the embargo when Cuba agrees to pay back all the ceased assets of ,Americans and American corporations, down there from the revolution.

we will lift the embargo when Cuba agrees to pay back all the ceased assets of ,Americans and American corporations, down there from the revolution.
Uhu... you'll be waiting a very long time for that one, then.

What does everyone have against Cuba? OK they lock up dissidents, but so does china (I think they still do). Yet we trade with them.

I think thins may be a good thing. We'll see. The US trade embargo hasn't changed things for the better, that's for sure...

Uhu... you'll be waiting a very long time for that one, then.

I know so difficult to bear with out a Cuban cigars but the US consumer is willing to suffer for the cause of being just.

What does everyone have against Cuba? OK they lock up dissidents, but so does china (I think they still do). Yet we trade with them.
We don't have anything against Cuba, the massive Cuban expatriate voting block in Florida does.

I know so difficult to bear with out a Cuban cigars but the US consumer is willing to suffer for the cause of being just.

Bah the average american consumer does not even care about the cause, and any that do simply get them illegally

It does not surprise me that you are romanticizing the whole thing

I'm hopeful that the embargo against Cuba will end in my lifetime. It's more of a habit than a moral stance at this point, anyway.

Yes, considering how marvellously effective it's been over the past 40 years.

Did you know the Cuban army still uses T-34's? :P

Did you know the Cuban army still uses T-34's? :P

did you know that the US still uses B-52's? :P

Did you know the Cuban army still uses T-34's? :P
Not like they don't have anything better, though.

did you know that the US still uses B-52's? :P

The last B-52 airframe was built in 1962. Every 10 years they strip them down to the frames and replace everything from parts taken from all the aircraft we destroy in the '80s to comply with the SALT treaties. They are expected to be in service for another 30-40 years. Only 71 are in service, while 744 were built between 1952-1962. Most were stripped for parts then the air frames were destroyed were the Russian spy satelites could see them. The rest that weren't destroyed were either kept in service, or put on display in museums. The B-52 has had an sucsessful service record, even 50 years afters its design. The T-34, although one of the greatest, if not the greatest tanks of WW2, met its fate at the hands of American M-24s in Korea not 10 years since its introduction was already outdated and out performed by its rivals.

The US uses the B-52 because its in its mid 50s and can kick the ass of anything on the ground right now.

Cuba uses the T-34 because they can't afford anything better.

Cuba uses the T-34 because they can't afford anything better.
The vast majority of their armour is composed of T-55s, not T-34s. They have more T-62s than they do T-34s.

Aye, they'll be monkey models, with utterly pish fire control systems etc., but there we go.

Embargoes don't work either, so why not just trade with Cuba? You haven't made a single point as to how an embargo is better than open trade for the situation of the Cuban people.

It's not about the people. It's about profit. And besides, if we lift the embargo, where's the novelty in smoking a Cuban cigar?

did you know that the US still uses B-52's? :P

It's a functional, capable, multi-role bomber that provides different capabilities than the B-1 and B-2.

Ugh. At least the US is keeping the Embargo.
Yeah, which is why you make your Dr Pepper with corn syrup instead of sugar. blech.

I would just like to ask, how is what Cuba does worse than what China does?

Yeah, which is why you make your Dr Pepper with corn syrup instead of sugar. blech.

I would just like to ask, how is what Cuba does worse than what China does?

They don't have as much cheap labor?

Oh of course. Because guns will solve everything and won't just end in a bloody civil war. Yes.

You crack me up.

Good to see your can't answer it then.

Good to see your can't answer it then.

Not that I support the US's trade embargo, but I don't see how you can call Cuba anything other than a dictatorship, seeing as it bans and drives underground any political opposition and forces the papers to be pro-Fidel.

Good to see your can't answer it then.
Cuba is hardly very self-sufficient, its popularity is hard to judge because you either get "The Castros have 110% popularity" or "everyone in Cuba hates it", neither of which are going to be right, and the common man has less political power than in most Western states by virtue of it being a single-party state. I don't particularly care about this kind of thing, but if you brought it up, then you can get slapped for it.

Umm who cares, you say political repression, I say class warfare.
Yawn. There are no bourgeois elements in Cuba now apart from Party members.

Umm who cares, you say political repression, I say class warfare.

Calling it what you want, its still not democratic.

Umm who cares, you say political repression, I say class warfare.

Let's call the whole thing off?

Not that I support the US's trade embargo, but I don't see how you can call Cuba anything other than a dictatorship, seeing as it bans and drives underground any political opposition and forces the papers to be pro-Fidel.
Umm who cares, you say political repression, I say class warfare.

Of course it's not


Thanks, that's all I needed.

Of course it's not, 'democracy' implies franchise for all classes, including the bourgeois. The state can only be the machinery of rule of the dominant social class.

"We cannot speak of 'pure democracy' so long as different classes exist; we can only speak of class democracy".
(V.I. Lenin: "The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky", in: "Selected Works", Volume 7; London; 1946; p. 129).

"The bourgeoisie finds it advantageous and necessary to conceal the bourgeois character of modern democracy from the people and to depict it as democracy in general, or as 'pure democracy'...
The bourgeoisie is obliged to be hypocritical and to describe the (bourgeois) democratic government as 'popular government', or democracy in general or pure democracy, when as a matter of fact it is the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, the dictatorship of the exploiters over the mass of the toilers".
(V.I. Lenin: "Democracy' and Dictatorship", in: ibid.; p. 219, 220).
Isn't taking previously-held rights away from the proletariat a bit derogatory towards them?

Calling it what you want, its still not democratic.
Of course it's not, 'democracy' implies franchise for all classes, including the bourgeois. The state can only be the machinery of rule of the dominant social class.

"We cannot speak of 'pure democracy' so long as different classes exist; we can only speak of class democracy".
(V.I. Lenin: "The Proletarian Revolution and the Renegade Kautsky", in: "Selected Works", Volume 7; London; 1946; p. 129).

"The bourgeoisie finds it advantageous and necessary to conceal the bourgeois character of modern democracy from the people and to depict it as democracy in general, or as 'pure democracy'...
The bourgeoisie is obliged to be hypocritical and to describe the (bourgeois) democratic government as 'popular government', or democracy in general or pure democracy, when as a matter of fact it is the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, the dictatorship of the exploiters over the mass of the toilers".
(V.I. Lenin: "Democracy' and Dictatorship", in: ibid.; p. 219, 220).

The proletariat never had any 'previously-held' rights, they lived in the dictatorship of the bourgeois so any 'rights' they had were nominal and reversible at best.
And reversed they were by 'revolutionary' communist parties who simply created the same class stratification as the previous governments, just with middle-class people at the top instead of the 'real' bourgeois. Superb.

Isn't taking previously-held rights away from the proletariat a bit derogatory towards them?

The proletariat never had any 'previously-held' rights, they lived in the dictatorship of the bourgeois so any 'rights' they had were nominal and reversible at best.

WHY must Cubans "open up economy"? I understand demand for democracy, but EU makes this sound like "open economy" is PART of democracy, we have same BULLSHIT in Africa from IMF and World Bank, it is exploitation, rape. "Open economy" is not a moral demand, but EU make it in moral terms. At Live 8 concert with famous philanthropists you have your Bono and your Bob Geldof demanding that African countries are LOANED money IF they "open up" economies. Nonsense, plain nonsense, speech could have been made by Tony Blair.
Europe owes Africa REPARATIONS, no strings attached, not LOANS.
Same lies told to Cuban people will bring same result. African governments didn’t have to loan the money, same as they didn’t have to want independence and didn’t have to vote in a load of dodgy politicians

CUBA
Cuba releases six dissidents
Six protesters were detained by Cuba's government Friday and released hours after the EU lifted sanctions imposed over a 2003 crackdown.
Posted on Sun, Jun. 22, 2008reprint print email
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Miami Herald Staff and Wire Reports

( MJA: Dont let the headline fool you, please read on.)

HAVANA -- Cuban authorities have released six dissidents who were briefly detained just hours after the European Union had totally lifted its sanctions on the island, saying there had been signs of improvements in Cuba's human rights.

The dissidents were detained Friday morning as they staged a protest near an office of the Ministry of Interior, in charge of domestic security, in the city of Matanzas.

All had been released by early Saturday.

News reports from Havana identified the six as Jorge Luis ''Antúnez'' García Pérez; his wife, Iraida Pérez; Idania Yanes; Yesmielena Surbano; Benito Ortega; and Blas Fortún.

Ortega said that security agents had told the group that they were under investigation for disobedience, resisting and causing damage.

Cuban authorities often detain dissidents briefly, usually to prevent planned gatherings or warn the government critics to stop their activities or face tougher sanctions.

The group's detentions came a day after the European Union officially lifted sanctions put on Cuba after a harsh 2003 crackdown that sentenced 75 dissidents to up to 28 years in prison after quick, usually one-day trials.

The EU sanctions, which included a ban on meetings between high-ranking EU and Cuban officials, were suspended several years ago but remained on the books until Thursday.

EU officials said they have seen improvements in Cuba's human rights situation, but along with lifting the sanctions the European body was expected to issue a statement next week urging Havana to release all political prisoners and take other steps.

''Antúnez'' was released last year after serving a 17-year sentence for ''enemy propaganda'' and sabotage. Of the 75 convicted in 2003, 20 have been released on parole for health reasons.

He said the protest Friday in Matanzas was designed to spotlight the earlier detention of his wife's brother, Mario Alberto Pérez, for investigation on unspecified charges.


this is not an uncommon practice of the Cuban government towards political dissidents. To harass them, arrest them, release them, and even exile.

This is just the begining, thier will be other higher profile arrests or harassment of dissidents.

Its a clear signal to the dissidents to keep quiet, and an answer to the EU that the policy will not change. Yet the EU is stuck with a review a year from now not six months as before.

I will report as it occurs.

While the top head line is misleading The article explains the sanctions were lifted thursday night, the dissidents arrested friday morning and released saturday morning.

The EU political sanctions that were imposed, then suspended and now lifted were minor petty political sanctions. The new EU language conditions have no enforcement conditions.

Castro complains about EU lifting sanctions, uses a strawman so large you can see it from space! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7466943.stm)

Castro complains about EU lifting sanctions, uses a strawman so large you can see it from space! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7466943.stm)

its a good thing Castro is out of power now because Jesus Christ he can't dress himself...unless he like has a council flat or something in which case hes just trying to fit in (http://boskolives.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/fidel-castro.jpg)

its a good thing Castro is out of power now because Jesus Christ he can't dress himself...unless he like has a council flat or something in which case hes just trying to fit in (http://boskolives.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/fidel-castro.jpg)

It's gotta be, because to trade in the dashing, rumpled fatigues for...that...begs serious questions about his judgment.

African governments didn’t have to loan the money, same as they didn’t have to want independence and didn’t have to vote in a load of dodgy politicians

then again they would not have needed the loans if it weren't for 100+ years of Europeans taking their natural resources.

if before that there had not been 200+ years of slavery maybe they would have had some candidates that wouldn't have been so dodgy.

It's gotta be, because to trade in the dashing, rumpled fatigues for...that...begs serious questions about his judgment

I think it takes the traditional policy of dressing down when your the wests enemy too far (then again (http://images.tdaxp.com/tdaxp_upload/north_korean_army_babes_md.jpg))

these are the important issues that face the modern world!

SNIP

have you ever made a serious post? :D

The US embargo is patently absurd and hypocritical anyway. The US does business with much worse, and certainly no worse, regimes than Cuba so there's no moral high ground to be gained here. That Cuba is on the USA's doorstep is clearly the major influencing factor and crocodile tears of compassion for the poor oppressed populace just doesn't wash. US foreign policy in the area, and the rest of the world, has shown that it has been quite willing to destabilise democratic governments and replace them with more friendly dictatorships (Chile anyone?) when it suited it's needs. The dictatorship issue is a red herring.

However, what the embargo did allow Castro to do was justify the nature of his regime by claiming it was subject to wartime conditions due to the embargo. Remove the embargo and remove that justification.

Castro wasn't a hard-line Marxist ideologue anyway. The US made Castro the Communist. He denied being a communist when he visited the US after the revolution but when the US government didn't seem interested in speaking to him he turned to the Soviet Union. We had the failed Bay of Pigs invasion, and it was only after that, in late 1961, Castro announced that he was a Marxist-Leninist and that Cuba would become a communist state. A few months later we had the embargo. How else was Cuba likely to develop?

It always seemed rather silly to me that any anti-communist American would want to keep supporting the very thing that has ensured the survival of the regime they want to remove.

Umm who cares, you say political repression, I say class warfare.

Euphemistic language will not change the fact that you support violence and death.

have you ever made a serious post? :D

Honestly No.