NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not sure if this has already been posted at one stage, but it is curious.
Just to outline; I'm not endorsing this material, and I did not write it. It is strictly Cut and Paste. No one wants to get banned here.
That said, it is sorta right.

So what do you all make of the following analysis.

Muslims Demographics

When Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone: United States -- Muslim 1.0% Australia -- Muslim 1.5% Canada -- Muslim 1.9% China -- Muslim 1%-2% Italy -- Muslim 1.5% Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs: Denmark -- Muslim 2% Germany -- Muslim 3.7% United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7% Spain -- Muslim 4% Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. France -- Muslim 8% Philippines -- Muslim 5% Sweden -- Muslim 5% Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3% The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5% Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris -- car-burnings) . Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam -- Mohammed cartoons). Guyana -- Muslim 10% India -- Muslim 13.4% Israel -- Muslim 16% Kenya -- Muslim 10% Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning: Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare: Bosnia -- Muslim 40% Chad -- Muslim 53.1% Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels: Albania -- Muslim 70% Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4% Qatar -- Muslim 77.5% Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide: Bangladesh -- Muslim 83% Egypt -- Muslim 90% Gaza -- Muslim 98.7% Iran -- Muslim 98% Iraq -- Muslim 97% Jordan -- Muslim 92% Morocco -- Muslim 98.7% Pakistan -- Muslim 97% Palestine -- Muslim 99% Syria -- Muslim 90% Tajikistan -- Muslim 90% Turkey -- Muslim 99.8% 100% will usher in the peace of "Dar-es-Salaam" -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim: Afghanistan -- Muslim 100% Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100% Somalia -- Muslim 100% Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

um you included Turkey why? (I mean its like they are a European slave state)

also I've noticed the opposite in that the Islamophobes tend to be from the countryside where little-no Muslim interaction actually take place as compared to the cities like Manchester

I believe that the more Muslims are in a country, the higher the chance that there are radicals among them. I forget who said it, but someone on here mentioned Islam as being in their "Angsty teen stage" or something like that, like Christians during the crusades.

also I've noticed the opposite in that the Islamophobes tend to be from the countryside where little-no Muslim interaction actually take place as compared to the cities like Manchester

Really? Because places like London get the most BNP supporters.

I'm not sure if this has already been posted at one stage, but it is curious.
Just to outline; I'm not endorsing this material, and I did not write it. It is strictly Cut and Paste. No one wants to get banned here.
That said, it is sorta right.

So what do you all make of the following analysis.

Muslims Demographics

When Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone: United States -- Muslim 1.0% Australia -- Muslim 1.5% Canada -- Muslim 1.9% China -- Muslim 1%-2% Italy -- Muslim 1.5% Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs: Denmark -- Muslim 2% Germany -- Muslim 3.7% United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7% Spain -- Muslim 4% Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. France -- Muslim 8% Philippines -- Muslim 5% Sweden -- Muslim 5% Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3% The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5% Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris -- car-burnings) . Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam -- Mohammed cartoons). Guyana -- Muslim 10% India -- Muslim 13.4% Israel -- Muslim 16% Kenya -- Muslim 10% Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning: Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare: Bosnia -- Muslim 40% Chad -- Muslim 53.1% Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels: Albania -- Muslim 70% Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4% Qatar -- Muslim 77.5% Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide: Bangladesh -- Muslim 83% Egypt -- Muslim 90% Gaza -- Muslim 98.7% Iran -- Muslim 98% Iraq -- Muslim 97% Jordan -- Muslim 92% Morocco -- Muslim 98.7% Pakistan -- Muslim 97% Palestine -- Muslim 99% Syria -- Muslim 90% Tajikistan -- Muslim 90% Turkey -- Muslim 99.8% 100% will usher in the peace of "Dar-es-Salaam" -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim: Afghanistan -- Muslim 100% Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100% Somalia -- Muslim 100% Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

I've seen this 'analysis' before. Basically, it's pure wank designed to appeal to Muslim-haters, that they can spew out to make it appear that they actually have some sort of rational basis for their whining insecurities.

Snip.

So, a "research" handpicks countries in which Bad Things (tm) happened with Muslims, countries we don't know jack about (thus making the claim unverifiable), and makes claims that may or not be factual about actual Muslim countries, and you expect it to be believed because... It's written as if it were a research, unlinked and in font 1?

Here's the :rolleyes: version of :sniper: :gundge: repetition, just for you:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Really? Because places like London get the most BNP supporters.

London is different in the fact that it is essentially rich white people land for the most part these days (hence why I mentioned Manchester :p)

I'm not sure if this has already been posted at one stage, but it is curious.
Just to outline; I'm not endorsing this material, and I did not write it. It is strictly Cut and Paste. No one wants to get banned here.
That said, it is sorta right.

So what do you all make of the following analysis.

Muslims Demographics

When Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone: United States -- Muslim 1.0% Australia -- Muslim 1.5% Canada -- Muslim 1.9% China -- Muslim 1%-2% Italy -- Muslim 1.5% Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs: Denmark -- Muslim 2% Germany -- Muslim 3.7% United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7% Spain -- Muslim 4% Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. France -- Muslim 8% Philippines -- Muslim 5% Sweden -- Muslim 5% Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3% The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5% Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris -- car-burnings) . Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam -- Mohammed cartoons). Guyana -- Muslim 10% India -- Muslim 13.4% Israel -- Muslim 16% Kenya -- Muslim 10% Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning: Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare: Bosnia -- Muslim 40% Chad -- Muslim 53.1% Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels: Albania -- Muslim 70% Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4% Qatar -- Muslim 77.5% Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide: Bangladesh -- Muslim 83% Egypt -- Muslim 90% Gaza -- Muslim 98.7% Iran -- Muslim 98% Iraq -- Muslim 97% Jordan -- Muslim 92% Morocco -- Muslim 98.7% Pakistan -- Muslim 97% Palestine -- Muslim 99% Syria -- Muslim 90% Tajikistan -- Muslim 90% Turkey -- Muslim 99.8% 100% will usher in the peace of "Dar-es-Salaam" -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim: Afghanistan -- Muslim 100% Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100% Somalia -- Muslim 100% Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Crap crap, crap crap. That's what I think about this biased study.

Islam has even more followers, worldwide, than Christianity in all it's variants.

Crap crap, crap crap. That's what I think about this biased study.

Islam has even more followers, worldwide, than Christianity in all it's variants.

I wouldn't go that far.

Christianity has about 1.8-1.9 billion followers, Islam has about 1.2-1.3 billion followers.

London is different in the fact that it is essentially rich white people land for the most part these days (hence why I mentioned Manchester :p)

Not in the outskirts, where I'd imagine most of the support from the BNP come from, and also like the most multi-cultural part of the UK.

I don't believe it, all I'm saying is the arguement is correct. It is a rational arguement, right? If it isn't, let's hear some arguements against it.

Other than the omission of Indonesia, the largest muslim nation in the world, which has very liberal laws concerning non-Muslims, (no sharia law), it's pretty spot on. Most of the countries are Arabic, so it's really against the Arab-Muslim population.

People should realize I didn't type this, so stop acting as I did. I don't know the link, it was posted in my region's message board.

Here's a google link,

http://americancivilization.net/index.php?itemid=528

I don't believe it, all I'm saying is the arguement is correct.

The fuck? Isn't this a bit like saying "I don't believe your mother's a whore, but if someone were to call her a whore, it would be an accurate statement"

The fuck? Isn't this a bit like saying "I don't believe your mother's a whore, but if someone were to call her a whore, it would be an accurate statement"

I think he's saying that he may not believe the premise of the argument (the statistics reported) but if the statistics are true then he believes the argument deduced from that is also true.

Islam


O NOES!111!!!!!!! TeH Mzlims r coming!!!!

What a load of wank..........Are we going to have to put up with this shit until the schools open again?

I don't believe it, all I'm saying is the arguement is correct. It is a rational arguement, right? If it isn't, let's hear some arguements against it.

Other than the omission of Indonesia, the largest muslim nation in the world, which has very liberal laws concerning non-Muslims, (no sharia law), it's pretty spot on. Most of the countries are Arabic, so it's really against the Arab-Muslim population.

People should realize I didn't type this, so stop acting as I did. I don't know the link, it was posted in my region's message board.

Here's a google link,

http://americancivilization.net/index.php?itemid=528

I don't think you're smart or crafty enough to type that OP. Don't fret.

Now, in regards to your threads, do you know anything else other than religion? Are you able to discuss other topics or this all we get?

Oh, and please, as in any of your other "interesting" religious threads, do stop the flamebait.:rolleyes: I don't think you've realized yet, but there are people here who profess Islam as their religion and they too deserve respect.

I don't believe it, all I'm saying is the arguement is correct. It is a rational arguement, right? If it isn't, let's hear some arguements against it.

No! It isn't!

Let me dissect it.

***Kaibô wo shite yaru.***

***Coroner***

The argument handpicks evidence, selectively lets out liberal Muslim countries, such as Indonesia, makes unfalsifiable and outright false claims, and tries to extrapolate from them to the entire Muslim population.

Causes of death:

Handpicked evidence does nothing to help it;
Selective exclusion of counter-evidence harms it;
False and unverifiable claims harm it;
False extrapolation from these claims kills it.

Bag it and tag it.

The argument handpicks evidence, selectively lets out liberal Muslim countries, such as Indonesia, makes unfalsifiable and outright false claims, and tries to extrapolate from them to the entire Muslim population.


That really doesn't help your argument, in fact it makes it look rather silly.

Not in the outskirts, where I'd imagine most of the support from the BNP come from, and also like the most multi-cultural part of the UK.

I was gonna say that.

That really doesn't help your argument, in fact it makes it look rather silly.

You know what I meant.

I wouldn't go that far.

Christianity has about 1.8-1.9 billion followers, Islam has about 1.2-1.3 billion followers.

I stand corrected. But according to this pie chart (who's the NSGer who likes the pie charts again? I can't seem to recall.), it's not too far behind in following:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png/400px-Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png

I stand corrected. But according to this pie chart (who's the NSGer who likes the pie charts again? I can't seem to recall.), it's not too far behind in following:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png/400px-Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png

I love you for not using that idiotic pacman graph. I already respected you, but that's just gone up a notch. May I steal this graph as a counter to the pacman nonsense?

I don't think you're smart or crafty enough to type that OP. Don't fret.

Now, in regards to your threads, do you know anything else other than religion? Are you able to discuss other topics or this all we get?

Oh, and please, as in any of your other "interesting" religious threads, do stop the flamebait.:rolleyes: I don't think you've realized yet, but there are people here who profess Islam as their religion and they too deserve respect.

Quit being an idiot. How about applying some of that oh so scathing wit into something productive.
I discuss what I think is interesting, I would not find discussing other topics interesting on these forums. I do not do all my social interaction on these forums. I only really discuss religion and would politics here. These forums aren't THAT good for anything else.

As for what I have to say being flamebait,... It is an interesting topic. I am clearly not merely trolling or out to offend. I understand that there are muslims here, I got no beef. To avoid an issue because it might offend some? No.

Stop deliberately attacking me. I don't care really, it's just a recommendation. Your pityful vendetta is immature.

I love you for not using that idiotic pacman graph. I already respected you, but that's just gone up a notch. May I steal this graph as a counter to the pacman nonsense?

actually that graph doesn't really at all "counter" the "pacman" one, because that graph represents worldwide figures, not domestic ones, and the "pacman" graph is typically used in response to complaints about christian persecution domestically. And while christianity only makes up about 33% of the globe, it makes up about 80% of the United States

Oh, and yes, when I say "I don't agree but it's right" I mean I don't agree with prejudice against muslims and I don't support the spirit, I just see that their arguement has a point.

Indonesia is kind of the only significant omission. Most other nations with a significant islamic population is there. In fact, Indonesia is really all that stands in the way of this being a compelling arguement.

Excuse me for asking why it's wrong, I'm a bit high and want someone else to do my thinking for me, hehehe

actually that graph doesn't really at all "counter" the "pacman" one, because that graph represents worldwide figures, not domestic ones, and the "pacman" graph is typically used in response to complaints about christian persecution domestically. And while christianity only makes up about 33% of the globe, it makes up about 80% of the United States

The problem is:

1)Those using that graph rarely, if ever, qualify it in any way and
2)This is an International forum, thus a worldwide graph is more appropriate anyway.

actually that graph doesn't really at all "counter" the "pacman" one, because that graph represents worldwide figures, not domestic ones, and the "pacman" graph is typically used in response to complaints about christian persecution domestically. And while christianity only makes up about 33% of the globe, it makes up about 80% of the United States

I think that that graph was actually originally used for ethnics vs whites, where the large part of the pie chart were ethnic people, so its premise becomes suspect.

Snip.

Then, by all means, answer my post.

Oh, and yes, when I say "I don't agree but it's right" I mean I don't agree with prejudice against muslims and I don't support the spirit, I just see that their arguement has a point.

Indonesia is kind of the only significant omission. Most other nations with a significant islamic population is there. In fact, Indonesia is really all that stands in the way of this being a compelling arguement.

Excuse me for asking why it's wrong, I'm a bit high and want someone else to do my thinking for me, hehehe

Don't worry I understand what you mean. I think the statistics given are significant, Islam IS clearly a problem in the middle east just like (as pretty most people agree on this forum) Christianity WAS and still is a problem in Europe and the Americas. Islam is comparatively still a young religion, and its going through somewhat of a radicalised reactionary period, just like Christianity went through a few hundred years ago, things like this always cause problems. You can't boil EVERYTHING down to socio-economics.

Devil's Advocate

"Causes of death" and theirs in turn.

Handpicked evidence does nothing to help it;

The evidence, while skewed, is nevertheless enough to justify the claims, be they true. The examples given still demonstrate reason enough to fear islam.

Selective exclusion of counter-evidence harms it;

This is much the same as above. The arguement does not have to be universally true, given enough examples. There are more examples than omissions. Kinda like not all communist nations have civil right's problems, but most communist nations did.

False and unverifiable claims harm it;

The claims are neither false nor unverifiable. A small amount of research will show the claims made to be relatively true. The social standing of muslims in the named countries is well documented, as are the racial tensions caused by large Islamic minorities.

False extrapolation from these claims kills it.

It is not an extrapolation, it's suggesting a pattern that might continue. It does not explicitly state that as muslim percentage increases, the state of muslim domination increases. The extrapolation is merely our own interpretation.

Don't worry I understand what you mean. I think the statistics given are significant, Islam IS clearly a problem in the middle east just like (as pretty most people agree on this forum) Christianity WAS and still is a problem in Europe and the Americas. Islam is comparatively still a young religion, and its going through somewhat of a radicalised reactionary period, just like Christianity went through a few hundred years ago, things like this always cause problems. You can't boil EVERYTHING down to socio-economics.

I suppose given Islam's age, Christianity is like a bigger brother. However, that just means Islam and Sharia law is going to leave a blazing trail across Christendom.
History repeating itself?

Isn't that a bad thing?

I believe that the more Muslims are in a country, the higher the chance that there are radicals among them. I forget who said it, but someone on here mentioned Islam as being in their "Angsty teen stage" or something like that, like Christians during the crusades.

Erm... surely, the greater the population of anything the greater the chances of radicals being amongst them?

I suppose given Islam's age, Christianity is like a bigger brother. However, that just means Islam and Sharia law is going to leave a blazing trail across Christendom.

I don't think it will have a bad effect on the west, but it is already having a bad effect on the east.


History repeating itself?

Isn't that a bad thing?

Well yeah, but it's difficult to stop.

Devil's Advocate

You see, skewed evidence DOES NOT prove anything. And many of the claims ARE unverifiable. Are there any Muslim issues in Trinidad Tobago? Really? Plus the extrapolation does NOT work like that. At all. Finally, the counter-evidence that's conveniently left out is important.

You see, skewed evidence DOES NOT prove anything. And many of the claims ARE unverifiable. Are there any Muslim issues in Trinidad Tobago? Really? Plus the extrapolation does NOT work like that. At all. Finally, the counter-evidence that's conveniently left out is important.

It might be a counter to the idea that Islam is universally a problem where-ever you are, but that not be the only point you could get out of the statistics. Plus Trinidad and Tobago only have a Muslim population of 5%.

I suppose I could use a similar style of argument to show that larger atheists population show more suicide rates (I beleive I saw a statistics in Time magazine or something that showed that suicide is indeed higher in nations like Sweden, Russia, China, etc. where there are more atheists. Unfortunately, I'm not going to bother to look for the issue, so you're going to have to take me for my word :p) but does that necessarily mean that their athiesm is directly related to the suicide rates? Not necessarily.

I mean, unless you haven't been paying attention, the Middle East has been racked by political radicalism since the turn of the century, because of the rather unsatisfactory state of affairs for the populations there. It's not Islam, it's the age we live in.

Furthermore, in a more world-wide look, predominantly Muslim countries are poorer. Stability and poverty usually aren't a natural combination, so there's another factor.

Thirdly, minorities in any country are almost always in conflict with majority to some extent. It doesn't have to be overt racism or anything, but there's definitely a sense of anger towards Muslims in a lot of countries nowadays (again, in light of recent events.

I love you for not using that idiotic pacman graph. I already respected you, but that's just gone up a notch. May I steal this graph as a counter to the pacman nonsense?

Steal it! I stole it from Wiki.:D

Quit being an idiot. How about applying some of that oh so scathing wit into something productive.

Apply that to yourself, darling.

I discuss what I think is interesting, I would not find discussing other topics interesting on these forums. I do not do all my social interaction on these forums. I only really discuss religion and would politics here. These forums aren't THAT good for anything else.

Funny. That means that religion is the only thing that interests you and that you're underqualified to discuss any other topic. I never see you in any other debates.

As for what I have to say being flamebait,... It is an interesting topic. I am clearly not merely trolling or out to offend. I understand that there are muslims here, I got no beef. To avoid an issue because it might offend some? No.

But you are trolling, anyway.

Stop deliberately attacking me. I don't care really, it's just a recommendation. Your pityful vendetta is immature.

Vendetta? You really have a high opinion of yourself. Who are you to me that I must have a vendetta against you? Let me tell you: No One.:rolleyes:

To expand on Heikoku's point, the statistics in the OP are selected and presented in such a manner as to imply two points which couldn't be defended as easily if they were stated outright. These points, and their following conclusion, are:

1) Muslims everywhere are the same, or similar enough that it's reasonable to treat Muslims worldwide as a single, unified group.

2) The conflict between Muslim and non-Muslim populations in the countries listed is ahistorical: it is an ideology-driven conflict arising out of the essence of Islam, without being influenced by other conflicts over ethnicity, resources, pressures from neighboring countries, etc.

And therefore:

3) It's reasonable to treat Muslims (human beings like [most of] the rest of us,) not as individuals but as agents of an invading body, and to describe the influence of Islam on societies in a way that mirrors the description of an infection and its symptoms.

If the argument is laid out this way, a couple of problems with it become apparent -- nothing directly in the argument itself, but simply a "guilt by association" problem: it's depressingly similar to the anti-Jewish arguments circulated in Europe in the first half of the 20th century, and it essentially accepts Osama bin Laden's et al.'s monolithic view of Islam.

However, this isn't necessarily an argument-killer, as there are plenty of folks around who think that Hitler and bin Laden have some valid points (even if they went a bit far with the follow-through.) So maybe it's best simply to point out that history shows us that cultures aren't static and don't exist apart from the human beings who participate in those cultures; that every conflict has roots both global and local; and to claim that modern Islam, or modern Islamic culture, is the exception to both of these cases is to make an extraordinary claim for which the statistics do not begin to provide ordinary (let alone extraordinary) evidence.



Or I could have just said "epic fail", but I like thinking things out out loud.

Notice there was no link in the OP so we could read the article from its source.

Notice there was no link in the OP so we could read the article from its source.

That's why I see this as a deliberate act of trolling and flamebating on Cuxil's part. As expected, he wants to stir shyte up. There are more interesting ways to approach the subject of religion, and an article that's clearly link-less... Come the fuck on.

Snip.

Wow. A battle between us would be EPIC! :eek:

That's why I see this as a deliberate act of trolling and flamebating on Cuxil's part. As expected, he wants to stir shyte up. There are more interesting ways to approach the subject of religion, and an article that's clearly link-less... Come the fuck on.

He did actually post a link, its on the very first page! And it's not like your helping to cool the shit stirring, by coming in here calling everything he says crap whilst having a complete lack of any sort of argument.

He did actually post a link, its on the very first page! And it's not like your helping to cool the shit stirring, by coming in here calling everything he says crap whilst having a complete lack of any sort of argument.

Read his last post to me. He accepts his flamebaiting and trolling.

Read his last post to me. He accepts his flamebaiting and trolling.

Erm... no he doesn't. He says "I am clearly not merely trolling or out to offend", how could that be accepting that he does?

Notice there was no link in the OP so we could read the article from its source.

Cuxil did provide a link farther down the page to a blog that referenced the stats. Deo Vindice blog (http://americancivilization.net/index.php?itemid=528)

The blog pretty much cuts & pastes from a FrontPage Magazine article here (http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4DE15EF9-A76C-4DD4-81E2-75683AEED74D).

FrontPage's editorial stance should be blindingly obvious to anyone who takes 5 seconds to look at the homepage.

Wow. A battle between us would be EPIC! :eek:

:D Thanks! I don't think there's a lot on which we disagree, though.

Erm... no he doesn't. He says "I am clearly not merely trolling or out to offend", how could that be accepting that he does?

Not merely trolling or out to offend.

Read that statement again.

Not merely trolling or out to offend.

Read that statement again.

Right: "not merely trolling" which means he's not merely trolling. "or out to offend": granted it's bad English but he clearly meant "nor out to offend", which means he's not out to offend.

Right: "not merely trolling" which means he's not merely trolling. "or out to offend": granted it's bad English but he clearly meant "nor out to offend", which means he's not out to offend.

From past experience with one of his religion OPs, I'm not so sure what's Cuxil's reason behind posting this (be that bad English or not). That first OP of his I read turned out to be a way of his to inflame NSgers. And he admitted to it farther down the debate so...

Cuxil did provide a link farther down the page to a blog that referenced the stats. Deo Vindice blog (http://americancivilization.net/index.php?itemid=528)

The blog pretty much cuts & pastes from a FrontPage Magazine article here (http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4DE15EF9-A76C-4DD4-81E2-75683AEED74D).

FrontPage's editorial stance should be blindingly obvious to anyone who takes 5 seconds to look at the homepage.

That is one seriously f---ed up site. When I checked the article, one of the first things I noticed was that on the same page as this anti-Muslim rant was an ad for a Muslim dating service.

That is one seriously f---ed up site. When I checked the article, one of the first things I noticed was that on the same page as this anti-Muslim rant was an ad for a Muslim dating service.

You just got to love google ads:

"How to Convert to Islam
How to convert and become a Muslim with Live Help by chat
www.IslamReligion.com"

That's when you get when you rant about muslims all the time.

I stand corrected. But according to this pie chart (who's the NSGer who likes the pie charts again? I can't seem to recall.), it's not too far behind in following:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png/400px-Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png

More then 10% more. That's quite a bit.

More then 10% more. That's quite a bit.

10%, but according to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion), Islam it's the second in religious following growth.

10%, but according to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion), Islam it's the second in religious following growth.

Ah, but:
Christianity

* The U.S. Center for World Mission claimed a growth rate of 2.3% for the period 1970 to 1996, (slightly higher than the world population growth rate at the time). This increased the percentage of Christians from 33.7% to 33.9%.[4]
* The US Department of State estimates that Protestant Christianity may have grown 600% over the last decade in Vietnam.[5]

and
Islam

Data for Islam reveal that the growing number of Muslims is due primarily to immigration (in the West) and higher birth rates (worldwide).[9]

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. France -- Muslim 8% Philippines -- Muslim 5% Sweden -- Muslim 5% Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3% The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5% Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

I live in the Netherlands; the food stuff is true, in that supermarkets are introducing halal food into their shelves, this because this makes people come to their stores who previously only went to Halal butchers for their meat. As far as I know, muslims in my country do not push this through themselves, and they don't have to, since there are already things like Islamic butcher stores and stuff (also, I'd think it logical for them to expect this Halal food, just as Jewish people want their food to be Kosher, and vegetarians don't want meat, and so on). As far as I know, no one is trying to introduce Sharia here (there was a rumor of a new 'sharia-party', but that turned out to be a joke: a few people had taken the foundations of the SGP, a Dutch reformed political party that wishes some sort of Christian theocracy, and replaced 'God' with 'Allah' and 'bible' with 'Qur'an').

As far as I know, young members of the Muslim population do cause problems (particularly if they are from Marocco or Turkey, if I believe the newspapers), but mostly in the sense of small crime and not speaking Dutch very well. This is mostly caused by the way their parents and grandparents were treated when they first came here; the idea was that they would only work here for a little while and then leave, so they were told they didn't need to learn Dutch or understand our society. But they never left, and now people are complaining that they don't speak much Dutch or understand our society. Apart from that, most of their parents and grandparents came from rural places where everyone in the village looked after eachother's children. Here they assume the same will happen, but Dutch people don't watch eachother's children, so the kids become badly raised and do bad things. The same problems arise with other, non-Muslim second- or third-generation immigrants.

But it's evident that Islam is growing in following. We can't deny that. Christianity is the top religion, worldwide, but Islam is right behind.

But by no means tailgating! :p
Also:
Within the world's four largest religions, Christianity currently has the greatest growth by numbers and Islam has the fastest growth by percentage.
Edit: Timewarp in three...Two....One....

<snip>

But it's evident that Islam is growing in following. We can't deny that. Christianity is the top religion, worldwide, but Islam is right behind.

But by no means tailgating! :p

Oh, agreed. But we can't deny it's growth.

Edit: Timewarp in three...Two....One....

LAUNCH!

I thought the warps were a thing of the past.:(

I believe that the more Muslims are in a country, the higher the chance that there are radicals among them. I forget who said it, but someone on here mentioned Islam as being in their "Angsty teen stage" or something like that, like Christians during the crusades.
Yo. That was me.

And aye, yer article is pish, the OP.

Snip.

A first post without gun smilies, upyours smilies or flames? And riddled with great points and coherent analysis of true facts?

:eek: THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END!!! :eek:

Yo. That was me.

And aye, yer article is pish, the OP.
Many thanks for imparting such wisdom upon us. We are not worthy of your presence. *Bows head, scrapes ground before Yootopia* :p
A first post without gun smilies, upyours smilies or flames? And riddled with great points and coherent analysis of true facts?

:eek: THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END!!! :eek:

Already happened, haven't you been listening to the news? :D

Yo. That was me.


Err.. I thought that was me? We probably both said it.

Err.. I thought that was me? We probably both said it.

False messiah! *Stones*:D

False messiah! *Stones*:D

Whoever is without sin, cast the first pie!

Whoever is without sin, cast the first pie!

*Pies Nanatsu* I have no sin! I took bought a penance yesterday:D

Err.. I thought that was me? We probably both said it.
Sounds likely, our worldview is pretty similar-ish. I'm still adamant it was me first, mind :p

I'm not sure if this has already been posted at one stage, but it is curious.
Just to outline; I'm not endorsing this material, and I did not write it. It is strictly Cut and Paste. No one wants to get banned here.
That said, it is sorta right.

So what do you all make of the following analysis.

Muslims Demographics

When Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone: United States -- Muslim 1.0% Australia -- Muslim 1.5% Canada -- Muslim 1.9%...
After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide...

The author is Peter Hammond (http://www.frontline.org.za/about_director.htm), an evangelical missionary.

Here is an example of his objectivity when it comes to reporting the facts:

Biblical Examples of Balanced Reporting

We can find good examples of complete news coverage in the Bible. The report on the parting of the Red Sea in Exodus takes into account both the physical events and the Spiritual dimensions. The battles and conflicts against the Philistines in Judges reports factually the interaction of Spiritual and material forces.

The conquest of Canaan by Joshua and the Israelites not only includes military and sociological details, but is clearly shown to be God’s Judgment upon wicked and immoral people, even as His mercy, guidance and protection is bestowed upon the Hebrews.

Link:
http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles/Battle_For_Mind_In_News_Media.htm

I would suggest taking Mr. Hammond's analysis with a large grain of salt.

*Pies Nanatsu* I have no sin! I took bought a penance yesterday:D

How dare you pie the Spanish Inquisition?! Blasph... oh, you bought penance. Ok. You're pardoned.:D

How dare you pie the Spanish Inquisition?! Blasph... oh, you bought penance. Ok. You're pardoned.:D
You forgot your red robe Nanatsu!:eek::p

The author is Peter Hammond (http://www.frontline.org.za/about_director.htm), an evangelical missionary.

Here is an example of his objectivity when it comes to reporting the facts:



Link:
http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles/Battle_For_Mind_In_News_Media.htm

I would suggest taking Mr. Hammond's analysis with a large grain of salt.
*takes entire salt shaker* Yeaaah...... Ya might want to take a little more salt then THAT when reading that pile of monkey crud...

You forgot your red robe Nanatsu!:eek::p

:eek:
OMG! I forgot!
*runs to get her robes*

Cherry picked evidence isn't worth the electrons it's printed on.

The fuck? Isn't this a bit like saying "I don't believe your mother's a whore, but if someone were to call her a whore, it would be an accurate statement"

QFWIN.

O NOES!111!!!!!!! TeH EBILMzlims r coming!!!!


You forgot that part. Its very important.

*nods*

:eek:
OMG! I forgot!
*runs to get her robes*

*gives Nanatsu his robe* Use this one Goddess Nanatsu!

*gives Nanatsu his robe* Use this one Goddess Nanatsu!

Why, thank you.

Not that anyone would give it a rat's posterior but I've been gone a couple of months, kept away from forums, read, occasionally posted but kept usually away.

Disclaimer: I live in Turkiye. I am a Turk. My whole family are Muslims. I am an atheist and I'm fairly open about it. I don't go around telling people I'm an atheist at every opportunity especially if they are believers and we are doing business with them but if I'm asked I can say that I am an atheist without fear of getting killed - despite what people seem to believe.

The reason was, as can be guessed at this point, mindless Islam bashing by people who doesn't have the slightest idea what Islam teaches and what those countries they talk about look like.

Although it is pleasing to see people who strongly oppose mindless *anything* bashing and that's probably why I haven't deleted my account months ago - not that anyone would care.

But, come on, I may be an atheist but I know and don't hate the Islamic culture and I love my country - so, how do you think I feel when I see "After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide: Muslim 90% Turkey --" ? Which is totally baseless and I know I'm being troll bait but I resent this ridiculous so called research.



Thank you for your patience.

Cheerio!

Not that anyone would give it a rat's posterior but I've been gone a couple of months, kept away from forums, read, occasionally posted but kept usually away.

Disclaimer: I live in Turkiye. I am a Turk. My whole family are Muslims. I am an atheist and I'm fairly open about it. I don't go around telling people I'm an atheist at every opportunity especially if they are believers and we are doing business with them but if I'm asked I can say that I am an atheist without fear of getting killed - despite what people seem to believe.

The reason was, as can be guessed at this point, mindless Islam bashing by people who doesn't have the slightest idea what Islam teaches and what those countries they talk about look like.

Although it is pleasing to see people who strongly oppose mindless *anything* bashing and that's probably why I haven't deleted my account months ago - not that anyone would care.

But, come on, I may be an atheist but I know and don't hate the Islamic culture and I love my country - so, how do you think I feel when I see "After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide: Muslim 90% Turkey --" ? Which is totally baseless and I know I'm being troll bait but I resent this ridiculous so called research.



Thank you for your patience.

Cheerio!

You didn't spend any of my patience. The morons that act like Muslims are evil do. Yours was a thoughtful, detailed, thorough and factual post, from an Atheist that truly KNOWS Islam. And you're not troll-bait. You're also right to resent this research, because I, an occultist, do it too. As should anyone with half a brain.

I, for one, think you should post more. The Deep Kimchis around here need someone to deliver them a sound and thorough humiliation once in a while, and I can't always bother to prove my superiority in relation to them (not that said superiority is a merit).

You're good. Come here often and do post! ;)

Not that anyone would give it a rat's posterior but I've been gone a couple of months, kept away from forums, read, occasionally posted but kept usually away.

Disclaimer: I live in Turkiye. I am a Turk. My whole family are Muslims. I am an atheist and I'm fairly open about it. I don't go around telling people I'm an atheist at every opportunity especially if they are believers and we are doing business with them but if I'm asked I can say that I am an atheist without fear of getting killed - despite what people seem to believe.

The reason was, as can be guessed at this point, mindless Islam bashing by people who doesn't have the slightest idea what Islam teaches and what those countries they talk about look like.

Although it is pleasing to see people who strongly oppose mindless *anything* bashing and that's probably why I haven't deleted my account months ago - not that anyone would care.

But, come on, I may be an atheist but I know and don't hate the Islamic culture and I love my country - so, how do you think I feel when I see "After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide: Muslim 90% Turkey --" ? Which is totally baseless and I know I'm being troll bait but I resent this ridiculous so called research.



Thank you for your patience.

Cheerio!

I don´t consider this post troll bait. You know what you´re talking about. You live in a Muslim country, you know what it´s really like. Your opinion is factual and not biased like the OP, who still insists he isn´t posting this with an intention to flame.

I was raised a Catholic and I´m from Spain, despite the history of friction between Spanish and Moors (and forgive my use of that term), I cannot hate Islam or the Arabs in general. Your people influenced my country in more than one aspect, enriching our culture, music, art and general life.

One thing we thank the Moorish settlers of Spain for is that they never begrudged us our customs or our religion. Despite what happened with Isabella and Fernando, I, personally, have no quarrel with Muslims and Islam.

I too hate senseless bashing, more so by people who have no idea about what they´re talking. True, there are extremists, in both sides. But that´s not reason enough to judge. And even when I´m known for lashing out, for sometimes bashing Christians, I do so when I think there´s a reason to. In this case, there was reason to start a thread to bash Islam, nor to bash any other creed for that matter.




On another note ppl: Stop it already with the Christianity/Religious threads. It´s boring.

"After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide: Muslim 90% Turkey --" ? Which is totally baseless and I know I'm being troll bait but I resent this ridiculous so called research.

must be something to do with the Kurds *runs from the imminent explosions*

On another note ppl: Stop it already with the Christianity/Religious threads. It´s boring.
Indeed. Just out of curiosity, are you still catholic?

Indeed. Just out of curiosity, are you still catholic?

Nope. I was until I was 18 though. Why?

London is different in the fact that it is essentially rich white people land for the most part these days (hence why I mentioned Manchester :p)

Wait, whaaaaaaat? Even if London wasn't the most multicultural city in the UK, with areas of huge poverty, rich people are definitely not in the BNP demographic - white or not.

Wait, whaaaaaaat? Even if London wasn't the most multicultural city in the UK, with areas of huge poverty, rich people are definitely not in the BNP demographic - white or not.

when the majority is isolated from the minority they got hostile to them duh

must be something to do with the Kurds *runs from the imminent explosions*
Or the Armenians, for that matter.

Anyways, whoever wrote that OP needs to do a basic statistics course. They'd teach you something like "correlation does not imply causation", which would encourage you to go and look for the actual causes of these various events.

Nope. I was until I was 18 though. Why?

*Throws hands up in air* Sheesh, can't I ask a question? Don't get no respect 'round here! *Cries in corner*

http://nmallory.exit-23.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/curiosity.jpg

I believe that the more Muslims are in a country, the higher the chance that there are radicals among them. I forget who said it, but someone on here mentioned Islam as being in their "Angsty teen stage" or something like that, like Christians during the crusades.

Except Christianity never called for that angsty teen stage, as you say. Islam has been that way since the 7th century.

*Throws hands up in air* Sheesh, can't I ask a question? Don't get no respect 'round here! *Cries in corner*

<image snip>

Incidentally...
http://www.3gnmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/curiosity.jpg

Except Christianity never called for that angsty teen stage, as you say. Islam has been that way since the 7th century.

Considering Christianity never had any real threats to it since the days of the Roman Empire, they really didn't need an angsty teen state.

Considering Christianity never had any real threats to it since the days of the Roman Empire, they really didn't need an angsty teen state.

I´m not disagreeing with your statement, but I do consider that Christianity did had an angsty teen state:

Paleochristianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleochristian)
:)

I'm not sure if this has already been posted at one stage, but it is curious.
Just to outline; I'm not endorsing this material, and I did not write it. It is strictly Cut and Paste. No one wants to get banned here.
That said, it is sorta right.


I was going to say something sarcastic, but my thoughts and fingers cannot seem to connect, so let me just write...

What a crock of shit...

I believe that the more Muslims are in a country, the higher the chance that there are radicals among them. I forget who said it, but someone on here mentioned Islam as being in their "Angsty teen stage" or something like that, like Christians during the crusades.

No, Islam has already been far better/more mature than Christianity. Try 1500 until the enlightenment, they were far ahead of us and helped in shaping/influencing our renaissance. Unfortunately after the first/second world war we cut them up and caused the social, political and economic instability that causes trouble it the middle east today.
People see the problems in the middle east on the TV and since 9/11 the reaction is "oh the ebil moslems!!!11!" . Then when Muslims come to other countries there are a few nutters, as there are in Christianity and people get this image of them, that they are going through their "angsty teen stage".

I'm not sure if this has already been posted at one stage, but it is curious.
Just to outline; I'm not endorsing this material, and I did not write it. It is strictly Cut and Paste. No one wants to get banned here.
That said, it is sorta right.

So what do you all make of the following analysis.

Muslims Demographics

When Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone: United States -- Muslim 1.0% Australia -- Muslim 1.5% Canada -- Muslim 1.9% China -- Muslim 1%-2% Italy -- Muslim 1.5% Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs: Denmark -- Muslim 2% Germany -- Muslim 3.7% United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7% Spain -- Muslim 4% Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. France -- Muslim 8% Philippines -- Muslim 5% Sweden -- Muslim 5% Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3% The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5% Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris -- car-burnings) . Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam -- Mohammed cartoons). Guyana -- Muslim 10% India -- Muslim 13.4% Israel -- Muslim 16% Kenya -- Muslim 10% Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning: Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare: Bosnia -- Muslim 40% Chad -- Muslim 53.1% Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels: Albania -- Muslim 70% Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4% Qatar -- Muslim 77.5% Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide: Bangladesh -- Muslim 83% Egypt -- Muslim 90% Gaza -- Muslim 98.7% Iran -- Muslim 98% Iraq -- Muslim 97% Jordan -- Muslim 92% Morocco -- Muslim 98.7% Pakistan -- Muslim 97% Palestine -- Muslim 99% Syria -- Muslim 90% Tajikistan -- Muslim 90% Turkey -- Muslim 99.8% 100% will usher in the peace of "Dar-es-Salaam" -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim: Afghanistan -- Muslim 100% Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100% Somalia -- Muslim 100% Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%
Here's an unfortunately short reply.

Starting at the 2-3% group, where is the evidence? There's no support for the claim.

On the next one, why shouldn't they ask for halal food? In America one can get kosher food, yet Jews are not even 5% of the population. And really, it's not a problem (whatever group it is). You have no evidence that they use force. Furthermore, how many of the states listed have Sharia?

Generally when people don't have good living conditions, they complain. As well, most of the uprisings and threats that were announced did not come from Muslims in Denmark or the West, it was from other areas, where there are more extremists, mostly because the conditions there breed extremists.

On your 20% claim, I'd like to see some evidence on church and synagogue burning in Ethiopia.

40%, in Bosnia the conflict is an ethnic one, and all sides are essentially to blame (though most would agree the Serbs bear the most responsibility). In Chad the fighting is based on ethnic lines as well. And Lebanon (which I think actually has a higher amount of Muslims) has multiple reasons for violence as well. It was under foreign occupation for quite a few years, and has been attacked recently as well (many people died for the sake of two Israeli soldiers). Let's also not forget the fact that many people endured poverty in the streets while Western puppets lived lives of luxury.

60% is complete bullshit. Let's see some statistics on Jizya in those countries. By the way, how does one use Sharia as a weapon. Albania to my knowledge is a) not very involved in genocide, or b) part of the same trouble from the breaking of Yugoslavia. Malaysia, you really don't see much genocide. Same for Qatar. Sudan, again, ethnic conflict (Arabs vs. Africans or Africans vs. Africans)

Now this next part is 100% shit, I won't bother asking you for facts since you can't find any. Bangladesh, no genocide. Egypt, oppressive government, but not a lot fo genocide. Gaza, not a recognized government, embargoed totally by Israel, and under shitty economic conditions, still no "genocide". Iraq, well, we unleashed the genie from the fucking bottle. Iran, oppressive regime, no genocide. Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan Syria, Turkey, no fucking genocide. Afghanistan was fine before we armed rebels to attack the Soviets (and it was actually fine while the Soviets were there, it was when they left and the warlords were in control that things got bad). Saudi Arabia, no genocide, oppressive regime. Somalia, don't know enough to comment. And Yemen, well, no genocide, but from what I hear it's kind of like a trip to the Middle Ages.

Considering Christianity never had any real threats to it since the days of the Roman Empire, they really didn't need an angsty teen state.

Well to be honest, the Arabs, Turks, and Mongols all were pretty threatening at different times. The Arabs were reaching into the heart of Europe from Spain in the mid 700s, so that was a sort of crisis point. The Ottomans loomed over Europe for a couple hundred years as well, I think they reached the gates of Vienna twice. And the Mongols could have easily overrun Europe, but they decided they had better things to do...