NationStates Jolt Archive

My friends and I have been debating the merits of various types of common insulation. I wanted to see if anyone on NSG could provide some insight or meaningful data on the subject. Debating the merits of current technology is an important way to improve our society and protect the environment. I hope many of you will do as I have done and take the time to write your local congressman or similar representative to express your opinion on this important matter.

These insulations were compared because they have similar R-values (insulation properties) between 3.5 and 3.9 (except asbestos which is notably higher), and are all available on the market today (except Asbestos). The only one that I have used before is High Density Fiberglass, so please expect a little bias from me on the subject.

Here are the main contenders:

High Density Fiberglass: High density fiberglass insulation batting, is made from molten glass just like normal fiberglass insulation. The advantages of high density fiberglass insulation over most other insulations is its compact size, making it ideal for insulating applications where a thicker insulation could not suffice such as Cathedral ceilings or thermal pipes in tight places. HDF absorbs water like a sponge, although it is not a source of food for hazardous mold. Removal and installation are are as easy as cutting and placing it. HDF is a skin, eye and respiratory irritant, although, when properly installed behind a wall or dense fabric, HDF will not dissociate into air. Fiberglass insulation is the most common insulation used in North America. Normal fiberglass is cheaper than mineral wool and has a lower R-value but HDF is slightly more expensive than mineral wool in some areas, but similarly priced in others. HDF is fire-proof.

http://www.taunton.com/CMS/uploadedImages/Images/Homebuilding/122++/h00128_14_lg.jpg

Icynene Foam: This is a carbon-dioxide water based foam. It generally forms tight seals if the spray-on version is used as the foam will expand into cracks and crevices. IF is mold and water resistant, although, it does not form a true water seal. IF does not burn but can be consumed in fires up to 240 degrees Fahrenheit. Its smoke releases mostly benign particulates along with CO2 and trace amounts of Carbon Monoxide. Icynene is however recommended by the Heart and Lung Association of America. Icynene is more expensive that fiberglass, mineral wool, and asbestos and the spray-on product requires preparation time and special equipment. IF has very little structural integrity and cannot be bent or shaped upon hardening. The spray-on version can insulate small pipes and spaces like HDF but is usually not cost effective for small applications.

http://sanmarcosinsulation.com/images/icynene-foam-insulation-system.jpg

Mineral Wool: Mineral Wool is made from natural slag or rock deposits. Typical Mineral Wool is made from 75% recycled materials. MW is fire-resistant. It absorbs water and, although it is not food for bacteria, it can harbor mold more readily than HDF because it is thicker and more pourous. MW is a mild skin irritant and is not known to dissociate into air. It cannot fit into tight spaces without compromising its insulating ability. In most cases, MW is a little cheaper than HDF. Mineral Wool is the most common insulation used in Europe.

http://images.asia.ru/img/alibaba/img/product/11/86/44/11864430.jpg

Encapsulated Asbestos: Asbestos is made from a thin fibrous mineral. Asbestos insulation has been outlawed in America and Europe because it is known to cause severe respiratory illness. Although, China and India still use Asbestos insulation. Asbestos is still used in America and Europe in flooring, roofing, automotive parts such as clutch facings and brake linings and various appliances because of its singular fire-proofing and thermal insulation abilities. Note:I have personally discovered plastic sealed asbestos in lamps and a soldering iron that I took apart. Health Canada states that the asbestos content of a product does not indicate its health risk, and encapsulated or sealed asbestos can be used safely. However, no sealed asbestos insulation products have been legalized since the misuse discovered a few decades ago. Critics of modern asbestos insulation say it is still too dangerous to be used as insulation while proponents believe modern asbestos products are completely safe. Finally, Asbestos can be recycled into low quality glass.

http://shijiazhuang-qinye-trading-co.tradenote.net/images/users/000/018/964/products_images/560556.jpg

Denial.

Denial.

Alcohol helps as well

Vacuum (dead air).

Pie






or
Mud

Vacuum (dead air).

That does work very well, but its very hard to install behind dry wall.

About ten hot women. The more the better :D.

Pie






or
Mud

yeah, mud does work pretty well from what I hear. I should research the insulating properties of adobe or various clays.

That does work very well, but its very hard to install behind dry wall.

Well, I was responding to the question as it was asked. I don't recall reading "ease of installation" as a criterion. You are, of course, quite correct.

That does work very well, but its very hard to install behind dry wall.

You'd be surprised. (http://www.glacierbay.com/vacpanelinfo.asp)

Well, I was responding to the question as it was asked. I don't recall reading "ease of installation" as a criterion. You are, of course, quite correct.

Sorry, brevity does not always suit my intentions. Let me reiterate. Considering all things, what is the best insulation?

You'd be surprised. (http://www.glacierbay.com/vacpanelinfo.asp)

woaw, that is badass. Although, its really only as good an insulator as the support material that it is made out of. And carbon/silica aerogel does not sound cheap. Still, thats is very cool.:cool:

Dammit, Khadgar! I was gonna say vacuum. :(

And somebody already said mud too. :(

I guess I'll go with Fox News. :p

Dammit, Khadgar! I was gonna say vacuum. :(

And somebody already said mud too. :(

I guess I'll go with Fox News. :p

Khad's post contained the excellent example, but I mentioned vacuum first.

Whoa. Childish much? Sorry!

I hear manure piles are always warmish in the center, even in the middle of winter and exposed to the elements.

Maybe manure?

I've had to go with my own delicious fecal matter.

Khad's post contained the excellent example, but I mentioned vacuum first.

Whoa. Childish much? Sorry!

Mea Culpa. *mails you tacos*

My friends and I have been debating the merits of various types of common insulation.
Fun times.

Cocks.

Ground, vacuum formed solidified cocks. Mix with a Polyethylene base, add 2 ppm of carbon tetrachloride, and sandwich between 2-3 inches of calcium sulfate.

An R factor of over 9000.

Fun times.

Pretty much. But we can't debate and drink caffeine at the same time anymore. It gets too violent. Tommy, asbestos isn't safe, Tommy, put down the knife, put down the knife! Oh god, that memory still haunts me.

Dammit, Khadgar! I was gonna say vacuum. :(

And somebody already said mud too. :(

I guess I'll go with Fox News. :p

Somebody LG! I'll 'Somebody' you, you young whippersnapper you.

Bear, reindeer/deer/moose/other ugulate from northern location pelts.

people

people

I always knew the space between the wall paneling was a good place to store the bodies, but I never before thought about the potentially insulating properties..

Definitely people. Particularly the fat ones. Babies also work, if you can get them in bulk. Door-to-door salesmen and Jehova's witnesses are the most cost-effective.

It's also particularly helpful if they're still alive. They consume oxygen and produce carbon dioxide, which I believe improves insulation.

Mea Culpa. *mails you tacos*

Fish tacos! How did you know?!?

foam!

also, I saw a TV show once where they had like recycled plastic insulation or something.......maybe it was old tires? I don't know but it was cheap and like good and stuff.

Fiberglass insulation SUCKS and it makes me itchy *itches*

foam!

also, I saw a TV show once where they had like recycled plastic insulation or something.......maybe it was old tires? I don't know but it was cheap and like good and stuff.

Fiberglass insulation SUCKS and it makes me itchy *itches*

"A thousand tiny cuts...."

Actually, I've discovered a form of insulation that is even superior to people:

Living in Florida.

Fish tacos! How did you know?!?

Tacolepathy. *nod*

Actually, I've discovered a form of insulation that is even superior to people:

Living in Florida.

Perth is better. Just as warm, not on Hurricane paths.

Vermiculite.

Pie






or
Mud

I was expecting this kind of behaviour from LG!

Scratch that last comment.

I was expecting LG to say 'my own fecal matter'.

*shrugs* never mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel
It has remarkable thermal insulative properties, having an extremely low thermal conductivity: from 0.03 W/m·K down to 0.004 W/m·K, which correspond to R-factors of 14 to 105 for 3.5 inch thickness. For comparison, typical wall insulation is 13 for 3.5 inch thickness. Its melting point is 1,473 K (1,200 °C or 2,192 °F).

Scratch that last comment.

I was expecting LG to say 'my own fecal matter'.

*shrugs* never mind.

Actually, my poo conducts heat very efficiently.

<.<

>.>

Of course, how would I know that?

...

I'll stop talking now. :p

Encapsulated Asbestos: Asbestos is made from a thin fibrous mineral. Asbestos insulation has been outlawed in America and Europe because it is known to cause severe respiratory illness. Although, China and India still use Asbestos insulation. Asbestos is still used in America and Europe in flooring, roofing, automotive parts such as clutch facings and brake linings and various appliances because of its singular fire-proofing and thermal insulation abilities. Note:I have personally discovered plastic sealed asbestos in lamps and a soldering iron that I took apart. Health Canada states that the asbestos content of a product does not indicate its health risk, and encapsulated or sealed asbestos can be used safely. However, no sealed asbestos insulation products have been legalized since the misuse discovered a few decades ago. Critics of modern asbestos insulation say it is still too dangerous to be used as insulation while proponents believe modern asbestos products are completely safe. Finally, Asbestos can be recycled into low quality glass.

Asbestos is harmless unless it is released into the air as fibers.

Asbestos that can be turned into fibers is called "friable".

It is also important to note that asbestos has many forms, some of which are less harmful, and some of which are downright lethal.

http://www.oehha.org/air/toxic_contaminants/Asbes_F.html

Asbestos is the common name for a group of naturally occurring fibrous silicate minerals that can separate into thin but strong and durable fibers. The principal forms of asbestos include chrysotile, crocidolite, amosite, tremolite, actinolite, and anthophyllite. All but chrysotile are classified as amphiboles, which tend to have a thin, needle-like appearance. Chrysotile breaks into curly fibers.

It's also orders of magnitude more lethal if you inhale certain types of asbestos fibers, and smoke tobacco - they really get that cancer going more than they would separately.

Many uses of asbestos today (such as on cars, etc) involve embedding the asbestos fibers in a matrix of resin. As such, no matter how much you grind it down, it never forms the bare fibers that are the problem - you get little beads of resin with fiber in them.

It's the nature of the bare fibers that causes the problems - the asbestos itself is inert in the body.

yeah, mud does work pretty well from what I hear. I should research the insulating properties of adobe or various clays.

Mud, sod, earth, adobe and other materials made from dirt do not have good insulating properties. What they have is a high thermal mass. That means they can store a lot of heat inside them. Concrete, steel and water also have high thermal masses. They also have very little thermal insulation capacity. In hot climates, the adobe mass will absorb heat throughout the day, creating a coooling effect indoors, and then when it gets colder at night, the adobe would then shed the heat into the surrounding air, warming the interior. Please note that this would actually make houses colder in cold climates.

foam!

also, I saw a TV show once where they had like recycled plastic insulation or something.......maybe it was old tires? I don't know but it was cheap and like good and stuff.

Fiberglass insulation SUCKS and it makes me itchy *itches*

There are several different types of spray insulation. The one in the OP is one of the more benign ones, but it doesn't work as well as the more common ones. Polyisocyanurate spray insulation has an r-value of about 8 per inch, which is quite high for common insulations. You can also get one made from old plastic bags and soy. The main trouble with spary insulations is that they release toxic gases during installation, shortly thereafter, and if they burn. They do make a good air barrier and vapour barrier, though.

Vermiculite.

Vermiculite often contains friable asbestos particulates. If you have it your house, do not touch it. It is harmless if undisturbed. If you have to do work around it, call a professional.

Different types of insulation have different properties. Each is good within a specific usage or context. What do you need it for?

Blubber

Ummm kittens?

Newspaper up the jacket *nods*

Mud, sod, earth, adobe and other materials made from dirt do not have good insulating properties. What they have is a high thermal mass. That means they can store a lot of heat inside them. Concrete, steel and water also have high thermal masses. They also have very little thermal insulation capacity. In hot climates, the adobe mass will absorb heat throughout the day, creating a cooling effect indoors, and then when it gets colder at night, the adobe would then shed the heat into the surrounding air, warming the interior. Please note that this would actually make houses colder in cold climates.

I did not know that about mud. Thermal mass? I think its also called specific heat. At least, thats what I know it as.

There are several different types of spray insulation. The one in the OP is one of the more benign ones, but it doesn't work as well as the more common ones. Polyisocyanurate spray insulation has an r-value of about 8 per inch, which is quite high for common insulations. You can also get one made from old plastic bags and soy. The main trouble with spary insulations is that they release toxic gases during installation, shortly thereafter, and if they burn. They do make a good air barrier and vapour barrier, though.


Fire is the main reason I chose Icynene foam. I does not burn, but when it is consumed by flame, the are no CFCs of HCFCs, only CO2, which, incidentally, can suffocate or poison you.


Vermiculite often contains friable asbestos particulates. If you have it your house, do not touch it. It is harmless if undisturbed. If you have to do work around it, call a professional.

Different types of insulation have different properties. Each is good within a specific usage or context. What do you need it for?

Nothing really, we were just debating the merits of each. It may sound silly, but insulation is one of those very important over-looked things. Most people don't know it exists or don't care, but modern society couldn't function without proper insulation.

I did use High Density Fiberglass to make some acoustic panels for my Hi-Fi sound system in my bedroom. Turns out HDF absorbs like 90% of all sound that hits it. Very easy to work with. If you wear gloves, its not itchy at all.

My friends and I have been debating the merits of various types of common insulation. I wanted to see if anyone on NSG could provide some insight or meaningful data on the subject. Debating the merits of current technology is an important way to improve our society and protect the environment. I hope many of you will do as I have done and take the time to write your local congressman or similar representative to express your opinion on this important matter.

-snip-

Tauntaun blubber.

(Pulls out lightsaber)

Asbestos is harmless unless it is released into the air as fibers.

Asbestos that can be turned into fibers is called "friable".

It is also important to note that asbestos has many forms, some of which are less harmful, and some of which are downright lethal.

http://www.oehha.org/air/toxic_contaminants/Asbes_F.html



It's also orders of magnitude more lethal if you inhale certain types of asbestos fibers, and smoke tobacco - they really get that cancer going more than they would separately.

Many uses of asbestos today (such as on cars, etc) involve embedding the asbestos fibers in a matrix of resin. As such, no matter how much you grind it down, it never forms the bare fibers that are the problem - you get little beads of resin with fiber in them.

It's the nature of the bare fibers that causes the problems - the asbestos itself is inert in the body.

Gosh you sure do know alot about this. Do you know what kind of asbestos is used to insulate electrical wires near hot objects? Like those short asbestos straws that I find in lamps and resistive heating elements like soldering irons? It looks like asbestos hose but it feels like plastic. Do you know what that stuff is exactly?

The idea of insulation to not conduct heat (obvious, I know, but I have to state it for the rest to make sense). Heat is conducted by atoms bumping into each other. Things of higher density (Like solids) have atoms that are closer together, so they bump into each other very often. Therefore, in order for insulation to work, it must contain low density stuff (like air), because such things have a lot of room between the atoms, so collisions happen very rarely. So, the absolute best insulator is a vacuum (no atoms to hit each other, so no heat transfer). However, vacuums are hard to create, and very difficult to maintain in places where insulation is common (air pressure would crush dry wall thats containing a vacuum like nothing), so the next best thing is gas. Also, convections hinder insulation. If there is an area of warm air, and an area of cool air, mixing them makes it so that it is more likely that a hot molecule will hit a cool molecule. to insulate, Hot molecules should only hit other hot molecules, and cold molecules should only be hit by other cold molecules. So air pockets in insulation help because they stop circulation. Therefore, foams and fibers work well. The idea is to have as many and as small bubbles as possible. So, the type doesn't really matter, but the air concentration of whatever it is does.

Also, fecal matter isn't really that great of an insulator. Compost pile are inherently warm, but that's not insulation at work. They're being decomposed, and that gives off heat. So once its completely decomposed, it cools off, and then its like insulating like with straight dirt, which doesn't contain that much air, so it doesn't insulate that well.

Nothing really, we were just debating the merits of each. It may sound silly, but insulation is one of those very important over-looked things. Most people don't know it exists or don't care, but modern society couldn't function without proper insulation.

I like the roxul line of mineral wools. Unlike most batt insulations, they retain their thermal resistance properties even when wet. This makes them ideal for exterior building envelopes in non-temperate and humid climates. Living in Quebec, I am very partial to water-resistant insulations. Like fiberglass, it is easy to work with, has good acoustic properties, and is not flammable. Though it has a lower r-value than the spray insulations, it is far less damaging to the environment.

The Icynene one sounds interesting too. I like the fact that it has no VOCs. And it doesn't burn.

I find that just yelling at the heat to stay inside/outside is most effective.

My friends and I have been debating the merits of various types of common insulation. I wanted to see if anyone on NSG could provide some insight or meaningful data on the subject. Debating the merits of current technology is an important way to improve our society and protect the environment. I hope many of you will do as I have done and take the time to write your local congressman or similar representative to express your opinion on this important matter.

These insulations were compared because they have similar R-values (insulation properties) between 3.5 and 3.9 (except asbestos which is notably higher), and are all available on the market today (except Asbestos). The only one that I have used before is High Density Fiberglass, so please expect a little bias from me on the subject.

Here are the main contenders:

High Density Fiberglass: High density fiberglass insulation batting, is made from molten glass just like normal fiberglass insulation. The advantages of high density fiberglass insulation over most other insulations is its compact size, making it ideal for insulating applications where a thicker insulation could not suffice such as Cathedral ceilings or thermal pipes in tight places. HDF absorbs water like a sponge, although it is not a source of food for hazardous mold. Removal and installation are are as easy as cutting and placing it. HDF is a skin, eye and respiratory irritant, although, when properly installed behind a wall or dense fabric, HDF will not dissociate into air. Fiberglass insulation is the most common insulation used in North America. Normal fiberglass is cheaper than mineral wool and has a lower R-value but HDF is slightly more expensive than mineral wool in some areas, but similarly priced in others. HDF is fire-proof.

http://www.taunton.com/CMS/uploadedImages/Images/Homebuilding/122++/h00128_14_lg.jpg

Icynene Foam: This is a carbon-dioxide water based foam. It generally forms tight seals if the spray-on version is used as the foam will expand into cracks and crevices. IF is mold and water resistant, although, it does not form a true water seal. IF does not burn but can be consumed in fires up to 240 degrees Fahrenheit. Its smoke releases mostly benign particulates along with CO2 and trace amounts of Carbon Monoxide. Icynene is however recommended by the Heart and Lung Association of America. Icynene is more expensive that fiberglass, mineral wool, and asbestos and the spray-on product requires preparation time and special equipment. IF has very little structural integrity and cannot be bent or shaped upon hardening. The spray-on version can insulate small pipes and spaces like HDF but is usually not cost effective for small applications.

http://sanmarcosinsulation.com/images/icynene-foam-insulation-system.jpg

Mineral Wool: Mineral Wool is made from natural slag or rock deposits. Typical Mineral Wool is made from 75% recycled materials. MW is fire-resistant. It absorbs water and, although it is not food for bacteria, it can harbor mold more readily than HDF because it is thicker and more pourous. MW is a mild skin irritant and is not known to dissociate into air. It cannot fit into tight spaces without compromising its insulating ability. In most cases, MW is a little cheaper than HDF. Mineral Wool is the most common insulation used in Europe.

http://images.asia.ru/img/alibaba/img/product/11/86/44/11864430.jpg

Encapsulated Asbestos: Asbestos is made from a thin fibrous mineral. Asbestos insulation has been outlawed in America and Europe because it is known to cause severe respiratory illness. Although, China and India still use Asbestos insulation. Asbestos is still used in America and Europe in flooring, roofing, automotive parts such as clutch facings and brake linings and various appliances because of its singular fire-proofing and thermal insulation abilities. Note:I have personally discovered plastic sealed asbestos in lamps and a soldering iron that I took apart. Health Canada states that the asbestos content of a product does not indicate its health risk, and encapsulated or sealed asbestos can be used safely. However, no sealed asbestos insulation products have been legalized since the misuse discovered a few decades ago. Critics of modern asbestos insulation say it is still too dangerous to be used as insulation while proponents believe modern asbestos products are completely safe. Finally, Asbestos can be recycled into low quality glass.

http://shijiazhuang-qinye-trading-co.tradenote.net/images/users/000/018/964/products_images/560556.jpg

If I were going to build a structure, it would be a monolithic dome. It's made up of approximately 4" of polyurethane foam, and several inches of steel reinforced concrete. That's plenty of insulation, and due to its construction, it's already pretty energy efficient.

If I were renovating a structure, I'd probably get several opinions from professionals in the field, then make a decision.

Raw wool.