NationStates Jolt Archive

Seriously... it's getting pretty boring looking into General. There are always at least two threads on the top page, and usually it's either a non-Christian baiting, or a professed Christian whining.

Can't we all just shut up about this for a while?

(Yes, I know... the irony, it burns.... ;))

It must be a slow news week.

We could go back to baiting and bashing USAmericans, if you want us to ;)

Seriously... it's getting pretty boring looking into General. There are always at least two threads on the top page, and usually it's either a non-Christian baiting, or a professed Christian whining.

Can't we all just shut up about this for a while?

(Yes, I know... the irony, it burns.... ;))

Can't help it that you're all obsessed with my religion :)

Seriously... it's getting pretty boring looking into General. There are always at least two threads on the top page, and usually it's either a non-Christian baiting, or a professed Christian whining.

Can't we all just shut up about this for a while?

(Yes, I know... the irony, it burns.... ;))
*gets burned with the irony*

Do you have your moddy hat on when you're saying this (ie are you saying that they have to stop?)?

I do agree there are too many threads on the same thing. But then this is NSG.

We could go back to baiting and bashing USAmericans, if you want us to ;)

I'll never get tired of that!

Quite happy to start a Falun Gong bashing thread if you crave some variety :p

Can't help it that you're all obsessed with my religion :)

It's my religion too, but it's getting ridiculous. There is seriously no need to shove our beliefs down others' throats, nor is there a need to poke us with proverbial sticks to get us going.

Do you have your moddy hat on when you're saying this (ie are you saying that they have to stop?)?

I do agree there are too many threads on the same thing. But then this is NSG.

No, if it was a Moddy action I would have slapped a bunch of locks on the threads and told everyone politely (more or less) to STFU, they're banned.

This is more a plea for, "Isn't there anything ELSE that interests people, or do we need to rehash the same old shit every five minutes?"

Here, I can summarize:

CHRISTIANS SUCK!
ATHEISTS SUCK!
MUSLIMS SUCK!
SAYS YOU!
NO, YOU!
Well, can't we be reasonable and talk about the shared origins?
ALL CHRISTIANS ARE TEH SUCK!
NUH UH!
YUH HUH!
Could you possibly clarify this point I have been wondering about....?
MORMONS AREN'T REAL CHRISTIANS!
YES THEY ARE!
YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF COPYCATS ANYHOW!
But, really, I'm interested in....
A CHRISTIAN BIT MY SISTER ONCE!
CHRISTIAN BITES CAN BE QUITE NASTY!

:D

It's my religion too, but it's getting ridiculous. There is seriously no need to shove our beliefs down others' throats, nor is there a need to poke us with proverbial sticks to get us going.

I like christianity threads. I like being able to share my point of view on the matter, because most people don't know what real christianity is.
And I think its a good thing that NSG seems to find christianity so interesting. Its here all the time. People are obviously thinking about it. :)

No, if it was a Moddy action I would have slapped a bunch of locks on the threads and told everyone politely (more or less) to STFU, they're banned.

This is more a plea for, "Isn't there anything ELSE that interests people, or do we need to rehash the same old shit every five minutes?"
You want me to create a thread?

It's my religion too, but it's getting ridiculous. There is seriously no need to shove our beliefs down others' throats, nor is there a need to poke us with proverbial sticks to get us going.And I think its a good thing that NSG seems to find christianity so interesting. Its here all the time. People are obviously thinking about it. :)
LOL
I like christianity threads. I like being able to share my point of view on the matter, because most people don't know what real christianity is.
*shakes head*

You want me to create a thread?

LOL, why not? You're a pretty good debater.

LOL

Yeah, guess all these threads are an indicator that people aren't interested in talking about christianity at all. :) *shakes head*

SNIP
:D

"A Christian bit my sister" is a great name for a band.

Yeah, guess all these threads are an indicator that people aren't interested in talking about christianity at all. :) *shakes head*

I wouldn't call it "interested" ... "harrassed" might be the better word. You just need a place where you can voice frustration.

I wouldn't call it "interested" ... "harrassed" might be the better word. You just need a place where you can voice frustration.

You feel harassed by christians? Or have I misunderstood

"A Christian bit my sister" is a great name for a band.

Go ahead, have a blast with it! :D:D:D

Yeah, guess all these threads are an indicator that people aren't interested in talking about christianity at all. :) *shakes head*

I was pointing out a reason why a lot of us are interested in talking about christianity: Because those of us who are not christian tend to have your religion forced at us on a daily basis (at least in the U.S. anyways).

You feel harassed by christians? Or have I misunderstood

Most definitely. Not by the whole bunch of them, but there are quite enough who insist on being a daily pain in the arse, and then run and hide behind the old "I'm allowed to do that, my god told me so!"

LOL, why not? You're a pretty good debater.
Thanks, but no, not debate threads. :eek: I'm tired of them... everybody is always fighting and arguing :(. *sighs* Why can't we all just get along together? :(

Rather, I'd like to see something that revolves around this:
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/790/shellsfood005mm2.th.jpg

:D

Thanks, but no, not debate threads. :eek: I'm tired of them... everybody is always fighting and arguing :(. *sighs* Why can't we all just get along together? :(

Rather, I'd like to see something that revolves around this:
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/790/shellsfood005mm2.th.jpg

:D

Fish fingers?

Fish fingers?
Looks like it, but they're not fish fingers. It could be human fingers, but no, unfortunately it isn't.

You can still try. :)

"A Christian bit my sister" is a great name for a band.

When werewolves bite people, they then become werewolves. Do you suppose if a Christian bites someone that someone then becomes a wereChristian - only coming out at the full moon?

Seriously... it's getting pretty boring looking into General. There are always at least two threads on the top page, and usually it's either a non-Christian baiting, or a professed Christian whining.

Can't we all just shut up about this for a while?

(Yes, I know... the irony, it burns.... ;))

If people were not interested wouldn't they just not post or read a particular thread? Of course I have realized the real discussion is only after 10 pages of flaming by non-Christians who could care less anyway. But I do for the most part enjoy the theology parts I can find when wading through threads.

The only way I can see that it is shoved down anyone's throat is for someone who doesn't care about Christianity to hang out in a Christianity thread. Sounds self inflicted to me.

Seriously... it's getting pretty boring looking into General. There are always at least two threads on the top page, and usually it's either a non-Christian baiting, or a professed Christian whining.

Can't we all just shut up about this for a while?

(Yes, I know... the irony, it burns.... ;))

Find another forum, then, if this one bothers you so much. So long as the conduct doesn't get out of hand, I don't see why you should complain... especially making a whole thread to complain about a trend in everyone elses posting... seems like an enormous waste of time and effort... but what do I know?

When werewolves bite people, they then become werewolves. Do you suppose if a Christian bites someone that someone then becomes a wereChristian - only coming out at the full moon?

No... in an effort to do some "evangelism" I tried that (with the same idea in mind) it didn't work... so it's back to slipping Holy Water in their soda's three times a day....

:p

I was pointing out a reason why a lot of us are interested in talking about christianity: Because those of us who are not christian tend to have your religion forced at us on a daily basis (at least in the U.S. anyways).

Most definitely. Not by the whole bunch of them, but there are quite enough who insist on being a daily pain in the arse, and then run and hide behind the old "I'm allowed to do that, my god told me so!"

I'd like to know, and not being rude here, how you consider christianity is forced on you daily? and how we're pains in the arse and cop outs? Maybe it is a US thing. No-one's ever told me I'm a bugging them or being a pain in the butt (in regards to religion) well, except on NSG....I'm told i'm an idiot nearly every time i post.

When werewolves bite people, they then become werewolves. Do you suppose if a Christian bites someone that someone then becomes a wereChristian - only coming out at the full moon?

Maybe they get the urge to go to Church once a week

Maybe they get the urge to go to Church once a week

"Hmm, my bite mark is glowing, and it itches... it must be Sunday...."

"Hmm, my bite mark is glowing, and it itches... it must be Sunday...."

That would depend on whether they were bitten by a Seventh-Day Adventist or a Seventh-Day Baptist or not.

I'd like to know, and not being rude here, how you consider christianity is forced on you daily? and how we're pains in the arse and cop outs? Maybe it is a US thing. No-one's ever told me I'm a bugging them or being a pain in the butt (in regards to religion) well, except on NSG....I'm told i'm an idiot nearly every time i post.

http://www.munic.state.ct.us/BURLINGTON/us_one_dollar_bill/us_dollar_back.gif

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

And don't forget door-to-door god salesmen; i.e. JW's and Mormons.


Edit: and in case it hasn't happen yet today...
You're an idiot!!!!!
j/k

I'd like to know, and not being rude here, how you consider christianity is forced on you daily? and how we're pains in the arse and cop outs? Maybe it is a US thing. No-one's ever told me I'm a bugging them or being a pain in the butt (in regards to religion) well, except on NSG....I'm told i'm an idiot nearly every time i post.

In Ireland, Christianity has some serious and unfortunate influence on general legislation. They initiated and maintain legislation as to when alcohol can be sold, for instance, practically outlawed prostitution, and are trying to reduce the availability of contraception.
Christians have previously tried to prevent me from shopping at Ann Summers.
People have tried to convert me in the street, on busses, on my doorstep and on occasion at the cinema.
Christians back in Germany have told my mother that it's her duty to stay with my abusive father if she doesn't want to go to hell (and yes, my mother was stupid and brainwashed enough to believe that).

And they are constantly trying to gain more influence, and curtail my hard-won liberties again.

In Ireland, Christianity has some serious and unfortunate influence on general legislation. They initiated and maintain legislation as to when alcohol can be sold, for instance, practically outlawed prostitution, and are trying to reduce the availability of contraception.
Christians have previously tried to prevent me from shopping at Ann Summers.
People have tried to convert me in the street, on busses, on my doorstep and on occasion at the cinema.
Christians back in Germany have told my mother that it's her duty to stay with my abusive father if she doesn't want to go to hell (and yes, my mother was stupid and brainwashed enough to believe that).

And they are constantly trying to gain more influence, and curtail my hard-won liberties again.

Well, I dunno whether I'd be gunning for prostitution. But I can see how the other 2 examples would get on your nerves.
I've never heard of Ann Summers....sorry! Is it a clothing store?
Best way to get rid of a christian, is to tell them you're already saved. I do that with the jehovah's when they come knocking. They lose interest when they find out I won't be able to help them with their 'converted' or 'witnessed to' quotas. (Which I find ridiculous).
And I don't know what those christians were thinking with your mum :( Christianity does allow for divorce. And why those christians weren't giving your mum a safe place is beyond me. I think people run away from issues like that. Its easy to give a general answer and put your head in the sand. People did it to me when I became very sick. I was told I was a terrible christian. It probably doesn't mean much. But I'm sorry about your mum.

Well, I dunno whether I'd be gunning for prostitution.

Illegal prostitution allows for greater exploitation of women, while allowing some men far greater profits from it. It's work like any other, and ought to be provided with legislation regarding workplace safety, health care, pension, social security and normal police protection. Anything else is just putting your head in the sand and allowing women to be exploited.


But I can see how the other 2 examples would get on your nerves.
I've never heard of Ann Summers....sorry! Is it a clothing store?
Best way to get rid of a christian, is to tell them you're already saved. I do that with the jehovah's when they come knocking. They lose interest when they find out I won't be able to help them with their 'converted' or 'witnessed to' quotas. (Which I find ridiculous).
And I don't know what those christians were thinking with your mum :( Christianity does allow for divorce. And why those christians weren't giving your mum a safe place is beyond me. I think people run away from issues like that. Its easy to give a general answer and put your head in the sand. People did it to me when I became very sick. I was told I was a terrible christian. It probably doesn't mean much. But I'm sorry about your mum.

Ann Summers (http://annsummersireland.ie/) Please tell me that was a joke that you've never heard of it... every woman should own a Rampant Rabbit. Seriously.

And no, I won't stoop to lying just cause it's the only way to get rid of Christian missionaries.

Christianity has this little "what god brought together" bit in its marriage ceremony. Which makes it a serious sin in the eyes of some to try and get out of a very bad situation. And they tend not to hesitate telling others.

Ann Summers (http://annsummersireland.ie/) Please tell me that was a joke that you've never heard of it... every woman should own a Rampant Rabbit. Seriously.

Quick break for an anecdote: Some friends and I were doing a word association thing as part of a drinking game. The only girl there said 'rabbit' in response to 'masturbation', and nobody got it except me. Crazy stuff.

For a thread that was intended to be about not talking about Christians you've all done a wonderful job on it! :D So are we or arent we discussing Christianity? Oh it's all so confusing.

For a thread that was intended to be about not talking about Christians you've all done a wonderful job on it! :D So are we or arent we discussing Christianity? Oh it's all so confusing.

This is a threadjack. It's a popular sport on NS. There are no rules.

Find another forum, then, if this one bothers you so much.

I so don't think so. Besides, why so aggressive? Why do you feel the need to show me the door because I've said I think people are making too many threads and all for the purpose of either bitching or evangelizing? Feeling threatened?

Please tell me that was a joke that you've never heard of it... every woman should own a Rampant Rabbit. Seriously.

Sorry, it's the first I'm hearing of it as well. Looks a bit like our Pink Pussycat in NYC, though.

This is a threadjack. It's a popular sport on NS. There are no rules.

Ah-huh. I see.
What a barbaric sport!

I'll never get tired of that!

Me either and I'm an American! :eek:

Sorry, it's the first I'm hearing of it as well. Looks a bit like our Pink Pussycat in NYC, though.

I thought is was an international chain... maybe it's just UK and Ireland, though.
I can highly recommend those rabbits, though. :D

For a thread that was intended to be about not talking about Christians you've all done a wonderful job on it! :D So are we or arent we discussing Christianity? yes

Oh it's all so confusing.yes

glad that got cleared up. :cool:

Seriously... it's getting pretty boring looking into General. There are always at least two threads on the top page, and usually it's either a non-Christian baiting, or a professed Christian whining.

Can't we all just shut up about this for a while?

(Yes, I know... the irony, it burns.... ;))
So you find it necessary to make a thread specifically to whine about whiners...okay.

In Ireland, Christianity has some serious and unfortunate influence on general legislation. They initiated and maintain legislation as to when alcohol can be sold, for instance, practically outlawed prostitution, and are trying to reduce the availability of contraception.
Christians have previously tried to prevent me from shopping at Ann Summers.
People have tried to convert me in the street, on busses, on my doorstep and on occasion at the cinema.
Christians back in Germany have told my mother that it's her duty to stay with my abusive father if she doesn't want to go to hell (and yes, my mother was stupid and brainwashed enough to believe that).
And they are constantly trying to gain more influence, and curtail my hard-won liberties again.
Well seeing as the general population of Ireland is Catholic (right?) I believe you would naturally see Christian beliefs in politicians and voters. After all whats the real difference in belief in a political theory such as standardized health care and a Christian belief such as anti-prostitution. Its just a more conservative atmosphere, make Christians the scapegoats if you wish.

Illegal prostitution allows for greater exploitation of women, while allowing some men far greater profits from it. It's work like any other, and ought to be provided with legislation regarding workplace safety, health care, pension, social security and normal police protection

Are you serious? I think the police have better things to do that protect whores all night long, especially in cities where prostitution and crime are a problem.

http://www.munic.state.ct.us/BURLINGTON/us_one_dollar_bill/us_dollar_back.gif



And don't forget door-to-door god salesmen; i.e. JW's and Mormons.

But, isn't that all part of your nation's history? Wouldn't you be proud of your roots? ---This coming from an Aussie, who's history revolves around crime and convicts. You know why the english part of my famly came here? Someone stole pig fat, and escaped with it down his trousers....I'm sure he would have made it out the gate, except the squishing and the smell gave him away........go the gene pool.
But still I'm proud of them. They still made the best of the situation and carved a life out of a very very hard land.

But yeah, the door to door christianity is annoying. Does it happen often?
[/QUOTE]
Edit: and in case it hasn't happen yet today...
You're an idiot!!!!!
j/k[/QUOTE]

Ta! lol :P Everything is now as it should be..

Well seeing as the general population of Ireland is Catholic (right?) I believe you would naturally see Christian beliefs in politicians and voters. After all whats the real difference in belief in a political theory such as standardized health care and a Christian belief such as anti-prostitution. Its just a more conservative atmosphere, make Christians the scapegoats if you wish.

One is based in rational thinking (even though the conclusions of that process can vary), the other is based on blind belief in a book of dubious origins, and discourages most kinds of rationality.


Are you serious? I think the police have better things to do that protect whores all night long, especially in cities where prostitution and crime are a problem.

Yes, I am. Whores do pay taxes, and are therefore entitled to the same protection by police as anybody else.

Illegal prostitution allows for greater exploitation of women, while allowing some men far greater profits from it. It's work like any other, and ought to be provided with legislation regarding workplace safety, health care, pension, social security and normal police protection. Anything else is just putting your head in the sand and allowing women to be exploited..

I agree that there should be OHS standards in legalised brothels. In fact, most already do here. And they are entitled to all of those things. I would still never be gunning for prostitution...it is the exploitation of women and men, regardless of the working conditions.



Ann Summers (http://annsummersireland.ie/) Please tell me that was a joke that you've never heard of it... every woman should own a Rampant Rabbit. Seriously.

And no, I won't stoop to lying just cause it's the only way to get rid of Christian missionaries.

Christianity has this little "what god brought together" bit in its marriage ceremony. Which makes it a serious sin in the eyes of some to try and get out of a very bad situation. And they tend not to hesitate telling others.

Nup no joke! had never heard of it. But I have seen it before. Why are there christians hanging around outside this store?

What God brought together, let know man seperate. But its like any contract. If you read the bible, which outlines the exact role of husband and wife, abuse and adultery are deal breakers. But I get what you're saying.

I agree that there should be OHS standards in legalised brothels. In fact, most already do here. And they are entitled to all of those things. I would still never be gunning for prostitution...it is the exploitation of women and men, regardless of the working conditions.

It's business. One could argue that all work contracts are exploitation, but that would be idealistic with complete disregard for realities.



Nup no joke! had never heard of it. But I have seen it before. Why are there christians hanging around outside this store?

Apparently, masturbation is bad. And lingerie is the devil's curtains or something.


What God brought together, let know man seperate. But its like any contract. If you read the bible, which outlines the exact role of husband and wife, abuse and adultery are deal breakers. But I get what you're saying.

I understand the whole book tends to say one thing at one point and something very different at another. And the rest is up for interpretation or has to be seen in historical context. *shrugs*
I honestly don't mind what people do with their lives, but once they start using their religion as an excuse to try and mess up other people's lives, I tend to react agressively.

Katganistan, I've never thought much of you as a poster, but this thread takes you down another notch.

You "look into" the General forum, see something like this:
(Yes, I know it will have changed in the hours since you started this, but not much)

Sexiest Man/Woman alive?
Poll: Irish school takes step towards tolerance, Catholic Church says it won't follow
America's building a border fence. But not like you think.
Christianity: Advanced Paganism??
What is it with pussies?
Curious: How do other countries view Australia?
Things you've picked up from horror movies
Ever feel like...
How Many Times?
Christian Discussions
Sorry.
New Election THread: Congress
Am i not funny enough?
Christianity vs. The World
Abortion and Your Morals
How do you NOT want to die?
Tim Russert DEAD!!!!
World News: Friday, June 13, 2008
What to learn?
Why Green Annoys Me
Democracy down the drain in the U.K.
Only Britain Soldiers On!
UEFA Euro 2008
Obama's half-brother "smears" him

You post to ONE of those, to lock it. You're just not interested in the others apparently.

... no, what gets your goat is that "there always seem to be two threads about Christianity"... and you start another one. Presumably as an ordinary poster, without the mod hat on, but with you it is often hard to tell.

You absolutely deserve to see the thread turn into an argument about Christianity. Why not lock this thread, just as a big shiny bow on your hypocrisy?

Irony? No, it's hypocrisy. As a real mod would say: if you don't like it, ignore it. Grow a thicker skin.

Lol, another funny thread, it's amazing what folks will post.
I'm beginning to think Lurking is more fun than posting.

Anywho (or is it anyhow, anyhoo?) it would be nice if there were less Christian threads and more on different religions instead, then again it would also be nice if certain people who think the earth is flat to go to the moon. Alas it probably won't happen for a while.

One is based in rational thinking (even though the conclusions of that process can vary), the other is based on blind belief in a book of dubious origins, and discourages most kinds of rationality.

Rationality isn't black and white you can't call one thing irrational and another rational just because you don't agree with it, which is exactly what you are doing.

Yes, I am. Whores do pay taxes, and are therefore entitled to the same protection by police as anybody else.

I'm not exactly sure what you want here, police standing with prostitutes or what?

It's business. One could argue that all work contracts are exploitation, but that would be idealistic with complete disregard for realities..

But the realities about prostitution are quite clear. It is based on objectifying the body, based on demeaning the person who does the selling and the person who does the buying. There is nothing glamourous about it. And people who come out of the sex trade are hugely scarred. I certainly think there are other jobs which exploit its workers. But the sex trade does it so thoroughly, because sex effects every part of a person. And I won't discuss the moral views, because that will piss you right off. But even with all the legalities you mentioned around workers rights, it will always exploit people. It cannot exist without doing that. So no, I wouldn't ever be fighting for a profession which is based on exploitation.


Apparently, masturbation is bad. And lingerie is the devil's curtains or something..
Masturbation isn't bad from a christian perspective. But the thought pattern which can accompany it, is.
If only the devil's pantie's weren't so pretty...


I understand the whole book tends to say one thing at one point and something very different at another. And the rest is up for interpretation or has to be seen in historical context. *shrugs*
I honestly don't mind what people do with their lives, but once they start using their religion as an excuse to try and mess up other people's lives, I tend to react agressively.
The bible never actually states those vows though. The contract which I referred to is the role of husband and wife set out in the bible. The man is to love his wife and cherish her, just as Jesus loves the church. And the wife is to submit to the husband (submit isn't a dirty word btw) and they are to be seen as one. But it also outlines the things which would justify a divorce. Those vows are the invention of man, to sound religious.
But at the same time, we could say the same thing about your views. We're not given the option of voicing an opinion, without being called backward or a bigot or racist or homophobic...or whatever other title we're given because we don't agree.

I honestly don't mind what people do with their lives, but once they start using their religion as an excuse to try and mess up other people's lives, I tend to react agressively.
No one is trying to use religion to mess up your life by what you've posted, and that statement makes you sound ignorant and very paranoid. Using politics and using religion to mess with people gets the same end result, so why are the two even differentiated here?

It's my religion too, but it's getting ridiculous. There is seriously no need to shove our beliefs down others' throats, nor is there a need to poke us with proverbial sticks to get us going.

No, if it was a Moddy action I would have slapped a bunch of locks on the threads and told everyone politely (more or less) to STFU, they're banned.

This is more a plea for, "Isn't there anything ELSE that interests people, or do we need to rehash the same old shit every five minutes?"

Here, I can summarize:

:D
This is the Internet, and porn is banned on the sight... QED

So you find it necessary to make a thread specifically to whine about whiners...okay.

Apparently your powers of reading comprehension have failed you. I made a thread asking us all to lay off because of the whiners and the baiters.

Katganistan, I've never thought much of you as a poster, but this thread takes you down another notch.

You "look into" the General forum, see something like this:
(Yes, I know it will have changed in the hours since you started this, but not much)

Sexiest Man/Woman alive?
Poll: Irish school takes step towards tolerance, Catholic Church says it won't follow
America's building a border fence. But not like you think.
Christianity: Advanced Paganism??
What is it with pussies?
Curious: How do other countries view Australia?
Things you've picked up from horror movies
Ever feel like...
How Many Times?
Christian Discussions
Sorry.
New Election THread: Congress
Am i not funny enough?
Christianity vs. The World
Abortion and Your Morals
How do you NOT want to die?
Tim Russert DEAD!!!!
World News: Friday, June 13, 2008
What to learn?
Why Green Annoys Me
Democracy down the drain in the U.K.
Only Britain Soldiers On!
UEFA Euro 2008
Obama's half-brother "smears" him

You post to ONE of those, to lock it. You're just not interested in the others apparently.

... no, what gets your goat is that "there always seem to be two threads about Christianity"... and you start another one. Presumably as an ordinary poster, without the mod hat on, but with you it is often hard to tell.

You absolutely deserve to see the thread turn into an argument about Christianity. Why not lock this thread, just as a big shiny bow on your hypocrisy?

Irony? No, it's hypocrisy. As a real mod would say: if you don't like it, ignore it. Grow a thicker skin.

Nobel Hobos, I honestly don't understand why it is that you feel the need to single me out for your love, but it's creepy. And considering that I actually am an actual mod here and you are not, your remark is both creepy and deluded.

Get a grip and go harass someone else. The pulling the pigtails bit is not amusing.
By the way, you fail at counting -- I posted to at least three of those. But don't let it get in the way of your post.

Let's ask Cheesus for guidance!

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/cheesus.jpg

He says to get the crackers!

Let's ask Cheesus for guidance!

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/cheesus.jpg

He says to get the crackers!

And this is why I love you, LG. :)

No one is trying to use religion to mess up your life by what you've posted, and that statement makes you sound ignorant and very paranoid. Using politics and using religion to mess with people gets the same end result, so why are the two even differentiated here?

No, nobody ever used religion to try and make my mother stay with my abusive father, and no that certainly hasn't messed up decades of my life.

Funnily enough, nobody ever used politics to meddle with my family or personal affairs. I wonder why that might be?

But the realities about prostitution are quite clear. It is based on objectifying the body, based on demeaning the person who does the selling and the person who does the buying. There is nothing glamourous about it. And people who come out of the sex trade are hugely scarred. I certainly think there are other jobs which exploit its workers. But the sex trade does it so thoroughly, because sex effects every part of a person. And I won't discuss the moral views, because that will piss you right off. But even with all the legalities you mentioned around workers rights, it will always exploit people. It cannot exist without doing that. So no, I wouldn't ever be fighting for a profession which is based on exploitation.

How does it objectify anything? I've heard that argument about porn and prostitution so many times now, but I can't say I see anybody being objectified. Victimised, yes. That does happen, and that is the reason why it has to be a legal profession, to provide the transparency needed and the full legal spectrum to assist the victims.

I still don't see who exploits anybody... it's business. One party provides a service, and the other party pays for it. Pretty straight forward. Exploitation comes into the picture only where no legal protection for the women is available, and pimps can make full use of the vulnerability.


Masturbation isn't bad from a christian perspective. But the thought pattern which can accompany it, is.
If only the devil's pantie's weren't so pretty...

You might want to check that again. It wasn't so long ago the Catholic church ranked masturbation as a worse sin than rape.


The bible never actually states those vows though. The contract which I referred to is the role of husband and wife set out in the bible. The man is to love his wife and cherish her, just as Jesus loves the church. And the wife is to submit to the husband (submit isn't a dirty word btw) and they are to be seen as one. But it also outlines the things which would justify a divorce. Those vows are the invention of man, to sound religious.
But at the same time, we could say the same thing about your views. We're not given the option of voicing an opinion, without being called backward or a bigot or racist or homophobic...or whatever other title we're given because we don't agree.

Oh, I remember that one. The priest told my mother that the problems in her marriage stemmed from her not submitting to the will of her husband. By that, she virtually forced him to act as he did, to ensure that his wife behaved as she should...

You can voice any view that you like. But I am arrogant enough to ask for a reason for any opinion I hear, and if all that can be brought forward is a single ancient book and nothing beyond that, I will have the cheek to dismiss the opinion as meaningless.

Sadly, Cabra, there are abusive assholes who justify being abusive assholes by virtue of the religion, and more sadly, they get other abusive assholes to support them by shifting blame onto the victim.

The point being, there are abusive assholes. They'd be assholes with or without religion.

Seriously... it's getting pretty boring looking into General. There are always at least two threads on the top page, and usually it's either a non-Christian baiting, or a professed Christian whining.

Can't we all just shut up about this for a while?

(Yes, I know... the irony, it burns.... ;)) Dunno, Kat. I posted a thread about political history, with a catchy title and amazing (amazing!) poll . . . sank like a rock. Not even 50 posts. This thread's done better than mine did :p

I thought of a way to recycle my poll, tho. And, ironically, in a post about "green" LOL!

Sadly, Cabra, there are abusive assholes who justify being abusive assholes by virtue of the religion, and more sadly, they get other abusive assholes to support them by shifting blame onto the victim.

The point being, there are abusive assholes. They'd be assholes with or without religion.

The point of dispute is whether political reasons are just as much used as religious reasons for these (I agree) bad, assholish aims.

And that, I think, comes down to community acceptance. Though the term is usually applied to teenagers, I will cite peer-group pressure.

Is a political "peer-group" like a religious "peer-group" in asserting principles at the expense of individuals? In urging individuals to make decisions against their own interests, because of what is "right" ?

I incline to Cabra's belief (not as strongly though). Politics always has factions, even among the party faithful it is expected that they will differ and dispute. Even a small "peer group" has factions, politics is divisive by nature.

Never having been part of a bible study group or a church congregation, I will reserve judgement on whether they handle individual decisions that way.

Maybe I should just start flooding the forum with Satanic threads.:p

Maybe I should just start flooding the forum with Satanic threads.:p

OMG, think of the children! ;)

Perhaps replying to Katganistan has cast my opinion into a needlessly disputative light.

I am really interested in the debate between Piu alla vita and Cabra West. It is quite profound.

Should we talk about religion as a force over the unbelievers life? Would it not make equal sense to speak of politics as a force over the life of an unbeliever-in-politics?

Can we opt out of one, and live our lives free of it, but not the other?

I would say not. We cannot opt out of politics (that is, we can opt out of the doing of it, but not of the effects, unless we somehow create a nation with no politics and live only in that nation.)

We should, however be able to opt out of the effects of religion.

*starts mocking Hare Krishnas*

Perhaps replying to Katganistan has cast my opinion into a needlessly disputative light.

I am really interested in the debate between Piu alla vita and Cabra West. It is quite profound.

Should we talk about religion as a force over the unbelievers life? Would it not make equal sense to speak of politics as a force over the life of an unbeliever-in-politics?

Can we opt out of one, and live our lives free of it, but not the other?

I would say not. We cannot opt out of politics (that is, we can opt out of the doing of it, but not of the effects, unless we somehow create a nation with no politics and live only in that nation.)

We should, however be able to opt out of the effects of religion.

Is it more of a sin to eat a piece of Cheesus if you're a christian, or if you're not a christian?

Perhaps replying to Katganistan has cast my opinion into a needlessly disputative light.

I am really interested in the debate between Piu alla vita and Cabra West. It is quite profound.

Should we talk about religion as a force over the unbelievers life? Would it not make equal sense to speak of politics as a force over the life of an unbeliever-in-politics?

Can we opt out of one, and live our lives free of it, but not the other?

I would say not. We cannot opt out of politics (that is, we can opt out of the doing of it, but not of the effects, unless we somehow create a nation with no politics and live only in that nation.)

We should, however be able to opt out of the effects of religion.

I would wholeheartedly agree on that statement.
Society will always lead to politics, as politics is nothing but the day-to-day decisions about what a society wants to do or not to do.
Religion starts as belief of the individual, and some would have it take the leap to determine the decisions of society. I personally do not want that. I think religion is personal, and should remain so. A religious society is dangerous to live in for people who like thinking for themselves, and living their lives the way they want.

Is it more of a sin to eat a piece of Cheesus if you're a christian, or if you're not a christian?

It's a terrible sin if you're not Catholic, if I remember correctly.

Quite happy to start a Falun Gong bashing thread if you crave some variety :p
Hear, hear!

I was pointing out a reason why a lot of us are interested in talking about christianity: Because those of us who are not christian tend to have your religion forced at us on a daily basis (at least in the U.S. anyways).
And today, in the next couple minutes, i happily and proudly wear my Puscifer shirt out in public ... the Revelation 22:20 shirt. Thanks be to Cobbleism.

Is it more of a sin to eat a piece of Cheesus if you're a christian, or if you're not a christian?

I'd say it's a sin not to partake in the nourishing deliciousness that is Cheesus.

Perhaps replying to Katganistan has cast my opinion into a needlessly disputative light.

It would be more accurate to have said, "Perhaps my utterly uncalled for personal attack on Katganistan, my inability to tell mere discussion from a moderator ruling, and my disappointment that she refuses to act the way I think she should, think the way I think she should, and write the way I think she should, might have made others a little uncomfortable with having rational discussion with me."

Is it more of a sin to eat a piece of Cheesus if you're a christian, or if you're not a christian?

It can't be a sin if you're Christian. Isn't part of the service, "Take this, all of you, and eat it? This is my body... do this in remembrance of me."

And it's got to be pretty cheesy to the non-Christians.

No, nobody ever used religion to try and make my mother stay with my abusive father, and no that certainly hasn't messed up decades of my life.

Your mother has just as much free will as you to, and staying with an abusive spouse IS NOT Christian at all, stop passing off the blame on others for your problems.

It can't be a sin if you're Christian. Isn't part of the service, "Take this, all of you, and eat it? This is my body... do this in remembrance of me."

"And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me." 8/10 for you

Your mother has just as much free will as you to, and staying with an abusive spouse IS NOT Christian at all, stop passing off the blame on others for your problems.

Oh, trust me, I blame my mom for believing this bullshit just as much as I blame those Christians who voiced it.

Oh, trust me, I blame my mom for believing this bullshit just as much as I blame those Christians who voiced it.
If they forced your mother to remain married whilst being abused, thats not Christian.

If they forced your mother to remain married whilst being abused, thats not Christian.

"No true Scotsman", eh?
Not going to cut it, I'm afraid.
The argument the priest used was that my mother, as the wife, ought to submit to her husband. So if her husband had to abuse her to get her to submit to his will, then being abused was clearly my mom's fault for not doing her Christian duty to him. I won't bother looking for te exact place of that statement in the bible, but I'm sure you will know about it anyway.

If they forced your mother to remain married whilst being abused, thats not Christian.

I hate to break it to you, but there is such a thing as a 'bad Christian'. You know, like the kind who think the sacrament of marriage is more important that the well being of an abused spouse.

"No true Scotsman", eh?
I won't bother looking for te exact place of that statement in the bible, but I'm sure you will know about it anyway.
The bible allows divorce for marital unfaithfulness, which includes breaking wedding vows, that easily allows divorce for abuse.

Is it more of a sin to eat a piece of Cheesus if you're a christian, or if you're not a christian?

I'm sorry, LG. If that's a clever analogy I'm not getting it.

If it's an invitation to joke about Jesus, I'm afraid I'm not in the mood.

Is a political "peer-group" like a religious "peer-group" in asserting principles at the expense of individuals? In urging individuals to make decisions against their own interests, because of what is "right" ?

I incline to Cabra's belief (not as strongly though). Politics always has factions, even among the party faithful it is expected that they will differ and dispute. Even a small "peer group" has factions, politics is divisive by nature.

Never having been part of a bible study group or a church congregation, I will reserve judgement on whether they handle individual decisions that way.
All I can really say to this is Majority and Minority Whips. If you don't think that they try to override individual feelings for the good of the party's platform, I have a nice bridge to sell you in New York, excellent view of Brooklyn.

As for the religious side, given the large plethora of not only religions, but sects, and denominations within them, not to mention the arguments between various churches/temples/shines/mosques within those denominations AND within the various churches/etc..., they come off just as factious as a political party.

I would wholeheartedly agree on that statement.
Society will always lead to politics, as politics is nothing but the day-to-day decisions about what a society wants to do or not to do.
Religion starts as belief of the individual, and some would have it take the leap to determine the decisions of society. I personally do not want that. I think religion is personal, and should remain so. A religious society is dangerous to live in for people who like thinking for themselves, and living their lives the way they want.
Really? Tell me then, what is the difference between individuals of like mind banning together to create enough of a majority (In the case of a democracy/representative republic) to force society to do things it's way and a religion doing the same?

CHRISTIAN BITES CAN BE QUITE NASTY!

Yes I agree with that ! I need a tetanus shot and a rabies shot last time a christian bit me.

I'm sorry, LG. If that's a clever analogy I'm not getting it.

If it's an invitation to joke about Jesus, I'm afraid I'm not in the mood.

Maybe He is.

As for clever analogies, I suppose I could be making an attempt to suggest that Jesus is not as two-dimensional in His thinking as some organized faith-peddlers would have us believe.

On the other hand, I could simply be trying to deflect the conversation into lighter friendlier banter. I have a habit of doing that.

On the other-other hand, I could just be playing with your head. I have a habit of doing that too.

:)

Maybe He is.

As for clever analogies, I suppose I could be making an attempt to suggest that Jesus is not as two-dimensional in His thinking as some organized faith-peddlers would have us believe.

As someone who thinks that Jesus is dead, I'm afraid I'd have to opt for his thinking being nought-dimensional.

On the other hand, I could simply be trying to deflect the conversation into lighter friendlier banter. I have a habit of doing that.

On the other-other hand, I could just be playing with your head. I have a habit of doing that too.

:)

I just spent an hour in the dentists chair. Don't talk to me about people playing with my head. :eek:

I just spent an hour in the dentists chair. Don't talk to me about people playing with my head. :eek:

My condolences.

Really? Tell me then, what is the difference between individuals of like mind banning together to create enough of a majority (In the case of a democracy/representative republic) to force society to do things it's way and a religion doing the same?

As my 3yr old daughter says. GOTCHA! :p

My condolences.

Why, thankyou. :) I think I might log out now anyway, because I can't read the same word twice. LG's signature looks like "Distill the consequences" ... I look at it again and it says "Distrust the comparable" and my screen keeps changing shape. I also ran a kilometre just because I felt like it (and yes, I myself was surprised I didn't die.)

A local anaesthetic isn't supposed to do that. But my nervous system has extensive custom wiring ... or is just fubar-ed ... depending on whether it's judged recreationally or psychiatriatricaly.

I'll come back in a few hours and reply to Nervun. I really need to straighten out first.

I just spent an hour in the dentists chair. Don't talk to me about people playing with my head. :eek:
Didn't they at least give you the giggle gas? :(

Didn't they at least give you the giggle gas? :(

No, just the one injection in the back of the jaw.

If I had a blog, I'd be posting up some weird shit right now. But I'm going to play it safe and get offline.

No, just the one injection in the back of the jaw.

If I had a blog, I'd be posting up some weird shit right now. But I'm going to play it safe and get offline.
Ouch dude... Well, rest up and we'll be here when you get your head back on straight.

Regarding the politics v religion comparison, I think there is a difference in liberal democracies where minority views are allowed so long as they don't impinge upon the rights of other people.

Some religions have a similar tolerance of opposing views but others believe that you cannot lead a proper life unless the society conforms to the same religion. For example, at a local swimming pool, people of a particular religion line the pool and abuse women wearing bathing suits they don't approve of. They genuinely believe that they cannot live a holy life under those circumstances.

Democracies sometimes do the same - just think of McCarthyism.

I can fix it for ye, but it won't be easy...

I'll need an elastic band, an empty coke bottle, an alpaca and 2 AA batteries though...

*strokes beard*

I can fix it for ye, but it won't be easy...

I'll need an elastic band, an empty coke bottle, an alpaca and 2 AA batteries though...

*strokes beard*
Hey, don't forget the trusty Champion knife and the gravitational pull of the moon.

Hey, don't forget the trusty Champion knife and the gravitational pull of the moon.

Are ye trying to tell me how to do my job Sonny?!

Are ye trying to tell me how to do my job Sonny?!Always keeping mind on the options. :)

Always keeping mind on the options. :)

Ye be living in some mystical world they young man! back in my day we used our teeth instead of knives, and if we needed a gravitational field, we had to make it ourselves!

bah, what's this world coming to! *grumble*

if we needed a gravitational field, we had to make it ourselves!Yeah, ask my wife about that.

bah, what's this world coming to! *grumble*Good question indeed. I suspect this forum has an answer ... and many more questions.

Christians have previously tried to prevent me from shopping at Ann Summers.

The serious: how did they try to stop you? Trying to ban the shop, picketing the shop, or just people who are Christians trying to talk you out of it?

The other: I saw the site, I have no prob with it ... though as a celibate person who doesn't really like to stimulate his own libido, and as an ideological Hobo who doesn't like to pay for anything he can have for free ... sex shops aren't really my thing.

The really weird thing is that Ann Summers is a well-known Australian feminist. Feminist in the best sense: erudite, practical, and not all talk. (I also dig Germaine Greer, but there's a bit of "crazy like me" in my affection.) The moment I saw the AnnSummersIreland site I knew we were talking a different person. Pink? Uh-uh.

============

NERVUN:
Really? Tell me then, what is the difference between individuals of like mind banning together to create enough of a majority (In the case of a democracy/representative republic) to force society to do things it's way and a religion doing the same?
As my 3yr old daughter says. GOTCHA! :p

Not really. I'm still not in any shape for strong debate, but let me register my disagreement with Nervun's assertion that both religion and politics can be portrayed as Tyranny of the Majority.

This is more of a "Howzat?" than a "Gotcha!"

If you want to do this a little later, I'd like a bit more detail so I know how many opponents I have. Do you endorse the post you quoted completely? WIll you defend it as if the words were your own?

==========

Hmm. Test post reveals that I'm still pretty stoned.

I'm very very very pleased with my dentist. He did three fillings in an hour (said he'd do two, snuck in another one because it went well -- didn't even TELL me!), they're fine work, and for my quarter-grand I got a high I'd probably pay fifty bucks for on the black market. Plus the other thing I am not sure

I've got plenty more teeth that need fixing. I'll be spending less time on here while I go earn some money for next monday's session.

OK, I got watch Top Gear (http://www.topgear.com/) now. It's on, it's free, I like it an all my video cassettes are moldy so I can't record it.

The serious: how did they try to stop you? Trying to ban the shop, picketing the shop, or just people who are Christians trying to talk you out of it?

All of the above. Plus verbally and in one case physically abusing people who tried to get into the shop despite the picketing.


The other: I saw the site, I have no prob with it ... though as a celibate person who doesn't really like to stimulate his own libido, and as an ideological Hobo who doesn't like to pay for anything he can have for free ... sex shops aren't really my thing.

The really weird thing is that Ann Summers is a well-known Australian feminist. Feminist in the best sense: erudite, practical, and not all talk. (I also dig Germaine Greer, but there's a bit of "crazy like me" in my affection.) The moment I saw the AnnSummersIreland site I knew we were talking a different person. Pink? Uh-uh.

What's wrong with being a feminist and liking sex? :D
And I just like toys, I can't help it...

And I just like toys, I can't help it...
Toys be an area where my inner geek is in a constant fight with my inner woodsman. The geek says toys are fun and the more toys you have, especially complex ones, the better. The inner woodsman always counters with how good it is to be good with your hands and what are you supposed to do when the batteries run out? ;)

The bible allows divorce for marital unfaithfulness, which includes breaking wedding vows, that easily allows divorce for abuse.

Yes, it would most certainly have been possible for my father to get a divorce. After all, it was my mother who broke the vows by not being submissive enough...

After all, it was my mother who broke the vows by not being submissive enough...

:eek: Did living with her influence leave you permanently twisted?

Really? Tell me then, what is the difference between individuals of like mind banning together to create enough of a majority (In the case of a democracy/representative republic) to force society to do things it's way and a religion doing the same?

The areas of life targeted by political groups and religious groups, mostly.

:eek: Did living with her influence leave you permanently twisted?

Not permanently, but for a few decades most certainly. My father wasn't much help there, either.

The areas of life targeted by political groups and religious groups, mostly.
Haven't noticed too much of a difference, and that's from both the US AND Japan!

No, just the one injection in the back of the jaw.

If I had a blog, I'd be posting up some weird shit right now. But I'm going to play it safe and get offline.

Is it wrong of me to like you better this way?

Haven't noticed too much of a difference, and that's from both the US AND Japan!

I have. Politics targets social life. Religion doesn't stop there, but goes right on targeting private life as well.

I have. Politics targets social life. Religion doesn't stop there, but goes right on targeting private life as well.
I've seen politics that targets both. And not just on religious grounds either.

I've seen politics that targets both. And not just on religious grounds either.

I haven't to be honest... care to name an example?

I haven't to be honest... care to name an example?
Sure, cigarette taxes. The idea being to tax people out of smoking for their health. (US and various other countries)

One child policy, in order to prevent overpopulation, married couples are not allowed to have more than one child (China)

The family registration system, in order to properly document citizens of Japan, every child must be registered under the family registration system. In order to promote the family, children born out of wedlock where their fathers will not recognize them cannot be registered. (Japan)

Various drug laws around the world.

Various drinking laws around the world.

Age of majority laws around the world (No, neither age 18 or 21 happens to be in the Bible).

And so on and so forth. All of those laws effect someone personally, all of which are designed to control a person's choices and abilities.

Edit: Oh, and seatbelt and helmet laws around the world.

Again, what's the difference?

Edit 2: And with that, I'm off to bed. I'm sure it's close to noon where you are, Cabra m'dear lady, but it's after 11 pm here in the land of the rising sun and I have to play Angry Gorilla with a bunch of over active 5th graders who just had a three day weekend so I bid you oyasuminasai.

I haven't to be honest... care to name an example?

The war on drugs?

Sure, cigarette taxes. The idea being to tax people out of smoking for their health. (US and various other countries)

You might note that smoking isn't outlawed. The motivation for the high taxation is to discourage the individual from being a burden on society by inflicting the cost of his/her health care on others unnecessarily.


One child policy, in order to prevent overpopulation, married couples are not allowed to have more than one child (China)

I was going to mention communist regimes as the only secular regimes that ever came close to religion where intrusiveness is concerned, but I realise that this now will look like bad form.
Anyway, I do think the reason behind the one-child policy is to prevent further overpopulation, which is very much a social issue indeed.


The family registration system, in order to properly document citizens of Japan, every child must be registered under the family registration system. In order to promote the family, children born out of wedlock where their fathers will not recognize them cannot be registered. (Japan)

I have to admit that I don't know enough about the reasoning and background of this legislation, but I'll be sure to read up on it.


Various drug laws around the world.

Various drinking laws around the world.

Again, their aim is protection of public safety and health care funds...


Age of majority laws around the world (No, neither age 18 or 21 happens to be in the Bible).

Again, those laws affect the individual in a social environment. Not allowing kids to drive cars is as much for public safety as it is for their own protection.


And so on and so forth. All of those laws effect someone personally, all of which are designed to control a person's choices and abilities.

Edit: Oh, and seatbelt and helmet laws around the world.

Again, what's the difference?

I disagree. They were created for clear and obvious public benefit.
Please let me know what you think the public benefit of outlawing contraception, outlawing divorce and punishing homosexuality would be?


Edit 2: And with that, I'm off to bed. I'm sure it's close to noon where you are, Cabra m'dear lady, but it's after 11 pm here in the land of the rising sun and I have to play Angry Gorilla with a bunch of over active 5th graders who just had a three day weekend so I bid you oyasuminasai.

Nightnight!

Yes, it would most certainly have been possible for my father to get a divorce. After all, it was my mother who broke the vows by not being submissive enough...Are you serious? Thats not what I said at all.

Seriously... it's getting pretty boring looking into General. There are always at least two threads on the top page, and usually it's either a non-Christian baiting, or a professed Christian whining.

Can't we all just shut up about this for a while?

(Yes, I know... the irony, it burns.... ;))

Frankly, I'm shocked..... shocked to find that the same forum topics come up over and over and over and over and over and over and over again....

Frankly, I'm shocked..... shocked to find that the same forum topics come up over and over and over and over and over and over and over again....

Why? You didn't expect this place to be a faunt of knowledge and where people actualy progress did you?

Why? You didn't expect this place to be a faunt of knowledge and where people actualy progress did you?

It never has been....

My biggest entertainment moments on NS are when people argue, and insist that this is a place of learning and sage arguments amongst intellectuals...

Why? You didn't expect this place to be a faunt of knowledge and where people actualy progress did you?

Oh, they do. Slowly, but they do. Only there's an endless supply of uninformed n00bs. ;)

Why? You didn't expect this place to be a faunt of knowledge and where people actualy progress did you?

Oh, they do. Slowly, but they do. Only there's an endless supply of uninformed n00bs. ;)

I agree.

Some posters start out trying to read what is offered to them in support of arguments, then decide that trolling is easier. Some just keep trying to refight the same battles, even if they always lose and do nothing to improve their arguments. And plenty (me included) don't really debate at all.

But you need a very jaundiced view not to notice that some posters educate themselves and improve their method of argument.

At one end, there's the influx of uninformed n00bs. And at the other, something like "graduation" where they either go elsewhere to debate, only post when there's a chance to persuade a poster they respect ... or perhaps they go wrangle the real world.

Actually, I welcome that. If all the best debaters I've seen on here were on at once, I'd have to keep my mouth shut and just lurk. There's enough mediocrity or outright stupidity that I can get by ... ;)

Is it wrong of me to like you better this way?

Really? Please send cash!

*drills new cavities with power drill*

Really? Please send cash!

*drills new cavities with power drill*

I have something better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOtMizMQ6oM&hl=en

:)

*Le snip*
I disagree. They were created for clear and obvious public benefit.
However Cabra, the goal you set for me was to provide political laws that went after the private lives of people. Whether it is for some moral or social reason isn't the point, the point is that yes, all those laws infringe upon the private lives and choices of people. Agree with them or no, they do so.

Please let me know what you think the public benefit of outlawing contraception, outlawing divorce and punishing homosexuality would be?
Don't look at me, I strongly disagree with those laws and see no public benefit.

Again though, politics do indeed meddle in people's private lives, they just cloak it in "for the public good" instead of "for the public morals" (Which, BTW, look up Japan's pornography laws, those are also for the public morals and not religious based [Very much NOT religious based given Shinto]).

How does it objectify anything? I've heard that argument about porn and prostitution so many times now, but I can't say I see anybody being objectified. Victimised, yes. That does happen, and that is the reason why it has to be a legal profession, to provide the transparency needed and the full legal spectrum to assist the victims.

I still don't see who exploits anybody... it's business. One party provides a service, and the other party pays for it. Pretty straight forward. Exploitation comes into the picture only where no legal protection for the women is available, and pimps can make full use of the vulnerability..

It's great to see it as a one person buys, another person sells. But we're talking about selling a person. That is like saying that buying a woman would be the social equivalent of buying toilet paper.
How is seeing the woman as mere object to satisfy the lust of a man (or whatever the roles might be) not objectifying them? She no longer has an identity. For that one hour or night or whatever, she is a sex slave. And not all men play nice. Not all men go to hookers to have cosy, initimate, safe sex. They go there because they cannot release primal urges on anyone, other than the poor prostitute.

Prostitutes do not have a range of educational or job options. Majority end up in the sex industry because there are no other options. They don't have stable housing, limited to no education, substance and alcohol abuse problems, they often have dependants and need money to support them. There is nothing clear cut about this industry.
Majority of the women in the sex industry were sexually abused as children. They have next to no self-esteem. Prostitution is simply an extension of the abuse they suffered at home...except now they have the mentality, well, at least now I'm getting paid to be abused. Or they believe they aren't worth the ground they walk on. They came from poor families. Many came from NESB. These are not women who had good lives, opportunities for good jobs, high level education...and then chose to sell themselves. These are women who had no real choice. Prostitution is not labor, it is paid sexual exploitation. It is intrinsically harmful and traumatic. Majority of women don't want it to be legalised, they don't want workers rights...they just want to get the hell out of it. And I'm not even going to go into the pyschological effects of it, but PTSD, major depression, gender confusion, fear.

You don't see how the sex industry exploits people?
http://http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Unequal.pdf

http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/MichLawJourI.html

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/FarleyVAW.pdf

And there is research from Germany and the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal and all those workers rights are enforced...that women are still suffering. Rape, disease, psychological damage. The only difference is that now they pay tax.

I worked in a women's shelter in Kings Cross in Sydney. Which is where a lot of street work happens, lots of drugs, lots of homelessness. I would look at these women, and there was zero freedom in their lives. And most of them wanted a way out, others were too far gone to hope for any better. I met one woman, who's mum worked in a legal brothel...but who also had a drug addiction. She needed more money, so she prostituted out my client...at age 7. Because people pay more for kids. She ran away when she was 14. No education. No home. No prospects. She works in brothels and on the street. Working in a legal institution doesn't mean that these women will have homes. There are bigger social issues surrounding this. And I would go so far as to say prostitution is violence against women.



You might want to check that again. It wasn't so long ago the Catholic church ranked masturbation as a worse sin than rape..

I am not a Catholic, so I can't speak on their behalf. I am a Pentecostal Christian, I would only feel comfortable commenting on my own doctrine.
Having said that, I've already said what I believe so there's no need to say it again. I would like to see this 'sin ranking' which you've spoken about though...



Oh, I remember that one. The priest told my mother that the problems in her marriage stemmed from her not submitting to the will of her husband. By that, she virtually forced him to act as he did, to ensure that his wife behaved as she should... .

Again I'm not Catholic. But the priest should also have known that the husbands role is to Love the woman, as Christ loves his church. That means selfish love, cherishing her, sacrificing for her, acting in her best interest, listening to her, giving himself to her completely.
It is extremely easy to submit to someone who loves you so completely like that. Because they are not forcing you to do anything. You trust them because they have loved you in a way that they have earned your trust.
And submission doesn't mean being subservient.
I would say that priest needs a good kick up the arse.



You can voice any view that you like. But I am arrogant enough to ask for a reason for any opinion I hear, and if all that can be brought forward is a single ancient book and nothing beyond that, I will have the cheek to dismiss the opinion as meaningless.

okay, well....why are we debating this then? Are you actually interested in what I'm saying? Or is this just a stepping board for you to tell me how justified you are in being angry. I do think you're justified in being really pissed off, you don't need to convince me.
But I'm concerned about who you're pissed off with exactly. A christian priest made a terrible call, which cost your family. The church context they were in, sided with your father and the priest, instead of your mum. But they did not apply the bible to that situation. They did not practice christianity in that situation.
So why lump us all in the same basket? I'm a christian. I've been hurt by christians more than anyone else. But my anger is directed at the people who hurt me, not at the general christian population.

It's great to see it as a one person buys, another person sells. But we're talking about selling a person. That is like saying that buying a woman would be the social equivalent of buying toilet paper.
How is seeing the woman as mere object to satisfy the lust of a man (or whatever the roles might be) not objectifying them? She no longer has an identity. For that one hour or night or whatever, she is a sex slave. And not all men play nice. Not all men go to hookers to have cosy, initimate, safe sex. They go there because they cannot release primal urges on anyone, other than the poor prostitute.

You're not buying or selling a person. You're buying or selling a service.
Or would you say that any time you take a taxi or a bus, you buy the driver? Or anytime you eat in a restaurant you're buying the waiter?
Why pretend that sex is so different?


Prostitutes do not have a range of educational or job options. Majority end up in the sex industry because there are no other options. They don't have stable housing, limited to no education, substance and alcohol abuse problems, they often have dependants and need money to support them. There is nothing clear cut about this industry.
Majority of the women in the sex industry were sexually abused as children. They have next to no self-esteem. Prostitution is simply an extension of the abuse they suffered at home...except now they have the mentality, well, at least now I'm getting paid to be abused. Or they believe they aren't worth the ground they walk on. They came from poor families. Many came from NESB. These are not women who had good lives, opportunities for good jobs, high level education...and then chose to sell themselves. These are women who had no real choice. Prostitution is not labor, it is paid sexual exploitation. It is intrinsically harmful and traumatic. Majority of women don't want it to be legalised, they don't want workers rights...they just want to get the hell out of it. And I'm not even going to go into the pyschological effects of it, but PTSD, major depression, gender confusion, fear.

You don't see how the sex industry exploits people?
http://http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Unequal.pdf

http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/MichLawJourI.html

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/FarleyVAW.pdf

And there is research from Germany and the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal and all those workers rights are enforced...that women are still suffering. Rape, disease, psychological damage. The only difference is that now they pay tax.

First off, they were paying tax even before the trade got legal protection. That's nothing new.

Secondly, I'm in no doubt that the most part of the sex industry is rather dirty business indeed, it has been existing on the brink of illegality for far to long to be anything else. But do you honestly think that outlawing it is helping anybody involved, apart from the pimps? Seriously?
The fact that it can be exploitation, that there is human trafficing, that there is violence against women is the very reason it needs to be a legal business. How else would you dam in those negative aspects?


I worked in a women's shelter in Kings Cross in Sydney. Which is where a lot of street work happens, lots of drugs, lots of homelessness. I would look at these women, and there was zero freedom in their lives. And most of them wanted a way out, others were too far gone to hope for any better. I met one woman, who's mum worked in a legal brothel...but who also had a drug addiction. She needed more money, so she prostituted out my client...at age 7. Because people pay more for kids. She ran away when she was 14. No education. No home. No prospects. She works in brothels and on the street. Working in a legal institution doesn't mean that these women will have homes. There are bigger social issues surrounding this. And I would go so far as to say prostitution is violence against women.

Who do you think is more likely to seek help and a way out from social and state organisations? A woman who knows what she did was legal, and what was done to her wasn't, or a woman who knows that contacting these organisations might put herself in jail?


Again I'm not Catholic. But the priest should also have known that the husbands role is to Love the woman, as Christ loves his church. That means selfish love, cherishing her, sacrificing for her, acting in her best interest, listening to her, giving himself to her completely.
It is extremely easy to submit to someone who loves you so completely like that. Because they are not forcing you to do anything. You trust them because they have loved you in a way that they have earned your trust.
And submission doesn't mean being subservient.
I would say that priest needs a good kick up the arse.

Well, both in the eyes of my father and in the eyes of the priest, my father's behaviour was in her best interest.

See, that's the thing with submission : It can work nicely for some. I'm pretty sure that there were a few slaves throughout history who loved their masters, as they were treated well. But that doesn't justify slavery, nor does it justify demanding that any adult submits to any other in any other relationship. They should be free to do it, if that's what gets them off, but having a religion demand it is very damaging.



okay, well....why are we debating this then? Are you actually interested in what I'm saying? Or is this just a stepping board for you to tell me how justified you are in being angry. I do think you're justified in being really pissed off, you don't need to convince me.
But I'm concerned about who you're pissed off with exactly. A christian priest made a terrible call, which cost your family. The church context they were in, sided with your father and the priest, instead of your mum. But they did not apply the bible to that situation. They did not practice christianity in that situation.
So why lump us all in the same basket? I'm a christian. I've been hurt by christians more than anyone else. But my anger is directed at the people who hurt me, not at the general christian population.

If I remember correctly, you asked why I thought that Christianity intruded on my life so much...

And, yes, they did apply the bible. Maybe not the way you would INTERPRET it, but they sure followed what it said...

I'm not exactly sure what you want here, police standing with prostitutes or what?

Don't act stupid. You know as well as I do that prostitutes in a locale in which their trade is illegal can't really rely on the cops if they are abused by a customer or a pimp because they will be arrested for prostitution.

You're not buying or selling a person. You're buying or selling a service.
Or would you say that any time you take a taxi or a bus, you buy the driver? Or anytime you eat in a restaurant you're buying the waiter?
Why pretend that sex is so different?...

Because a person is not a taxi perhaps? And the 'service' which you're talking about requires a person to be exploited and objectified....and I don't ever recall getting HIV from riding in a taxi, or huge numbers of taxi drivers ending up with PTSD or any other number of pyschological conditions...from driving the damn taxi.
Every time I ask the taxi driver to take me somewhere, I am still providing him with respect. I am not asking him to give me anything which will be of cost to him.
We are talking about PEOPLE. And yes, we are sexual beings. But sex is not purely biological. There are emotional, and as much as you may hate me saying it spiritual aspects of sex. If sex were purely biological, then rape would mean nothing. Incest would mean nothing. But there are many other complicated aspects to it. It is not black and white. And people can be and are damaged by it. Especially in prostitution.
Claiming that you can seperate a person from sex and their sexuality, is absolute bullshit.




Secondly, I'm in no doubt that the most part of the sex industry is rather dirty business indeed, it has been existing on the brink of illegality for far to long to be anything else. But do you honestly think that outlawing it is helping anybody involved, apart from the pimps? Seriously?
The fact that it can be exploitation, that there is human trafficing, that there is violence against women is the very reason it needs to be a legal business. How else would you dam in those negative aspects??...

I never said anything about outlawing it. I said that I did not support it. Do I support the people involved....obviously. I work in welfare. Do I support the concept of prostitution. Hell no. Do I support it more when it is legal? No. Because the evidence to date says that it doesn't make a scrap of difference to the women who are being exploited.
If you actually read the papers which I linked (unless the link didn't work, in which case I'll try again) they don't just speak about human trafficking. They speak about legalising and decriminalising prostitution. And it takes into account countries like the Netherlands, where there is no huge stigma around it...and guess what, its still ugly. It doesn't fix anything.




Who do you think is more likely to seek help and a way out from social and state organisations? A woman who knows what she did was legal, and what was done to her wasn't, or a woman who knows that contacting these organisations might put herself in jail?.

If you're talking about police protection, the studies say that it makes no difference. In fact, then there is debate about whether a prostitute can even accuse someone of rape.
These women are desperate BEFORE prostitution. The only solution to making it safer for women, is to get supports in place BEFORE they end up in the sex trade. Providing women with housing, social supports, decent education and vocational training. This is the only way to stop the exploitation in this area.
Legal does not equal safe in this type of work.



Well, both in the eyes of my father and in the eyes of the priest, my father's behaviour was in her best interest.

See, that's the thing with submission : It can work nicely for some. I'm pretty sure that there were a few slaves throughout history who loved their masters, as they were treated well. But that doesn't justify slavery, nor does it justify demanding that any adult submits to any other in any other relationship. They should be free to do it, if that's what gets them off, but having a religion demand it is very damaging.

Then be angry at your father and at the priest.
You could equally draw the conclusion that men are arseholes, as much as you could conclude that christians are arseholes. But you wouldn't discount all men based on that, it'd be stupid. So why dump on religion based on the same thing?
You are comparing a harmoneous marriage to slavery? Didn't you read what I posted before about the man's role as a husband? He submits too! Because the idea of marriage is that two people become one.
You cannot have a good relationship without submission. And I do not mean submission in the way you obviously mean it. You mean slavery. But how do you make a decision together, if neither one can compromise? If they are too busy demanding their own way to think about the other person? If both of them are demanding to have things their way all the time, the relationship will not work. Sorry, but thats just the way it is.
But someone submitting in a loving relationship, does not make them a slave. It does not make them stupid, or backwards. It means that they are adult enough not to think about themselves all the time. It does not mean that the women stands behind the man. That she has to dumb herself down or that she has no say, no rights, no voice.
What happened with your parents, it was not submission. That was your dad forcing his will on your mum. That is not in any way shape or form what the bible is outlining for a marriage.




If I remember correctly, you asked why I thought that Christianity intruded on my life so much...

And, yes, they did apply the bible. Maybe not the way you would INTERPRET it, but they sure followed what it said...

No, I do not agree with that last statement. Because it outlines the role of the husband BEFORE the role of the wife. So your father and the priest decided, because it was in their best interest not to follow what was in the bible, and manipulate the role of the woman which is outlined. It is not a matter of interpretation. It is ignoring what is plain in front of you.
Thats like ignoring a step in a recipe and adding your own, and then wondering why your cupcakes are salty and burned.

Yes, you're right, I asked you why.....Sorry about that. I am just frustrated.

Surely this a political game, not a religious one?

Surely this a political game, not a religious one?
Welcome to General.

Welcome to General.

Sage, yo.

i have always held the belief that religions are an out moded system of explaining things to pesents who dont understand the world around them
i cant under stand why people need to beileve in a system that promotes submision to a thing that we have no proof of existing sure it could exist but in how many millions of years have we had to find out and not a single shred of proof and yes i have heard the "but god will only reveal its self if you have faith" bull crap answer
nd if there realy was a god wouldnt there only be 1 religion or dirivitives of 1 religion instead of greater then 1000 diffrent ones with diffrent beliefs all causing strife and wars most wars have something to do with religion i have found
yes religions have good points to them but no those good points dont stop the wakos nut jobs infact all the nutters i have encountered have had some form of religion or have had something against religion and gone out and killed people of their own faith to prove their point

now on the question of prostitution no it will never go away you cant stop it no matter how many crusades you go on better to bring it out in the open and tax it and regulate it than send it under ground where it just causes problems
also ponography is essentally the same thing yet in most countries prostitution which is sex behiend closed doors for money is illeagle and porn which is sex in front of a camera for money is not tell me that and i will show you a green dog

basically i reckon that religions provide nothing you cant get out of a diffrent system with less draw backs

now before you crawl up my arse saying i havent experienced religions yet i must warn you i have a degree in theology and it was the biggest crock of bull shit i ever saw

there im done with my rant you can carry on now

Seriously... it's getting pretty boring looking into General. There are always at least two threads on the top page, and usually it's either a non-Christian baiting, or a professed Christian whining.

Can't we all just shut up about this for a while?

(Yes, I know... the irony, it burns.... ;))

As should be clear by now, about 70% of the "posters" here on General are simply bots with AI put in by Jolt to attract more real players. Unfortunately, Jolt put so much into getting the Internet pettiness factor right that they didn't have enough memory to include more than four or five stale topics, with about three opinions for each. These topics are:
Christianity, with the opinions being FOR and AGAINST
Sex, with opinions being FOR, AGAINST, and DEPENDS
Current events, with opinions being FOR and AGAINST
Music, with opinions being FOR, AGAINST, and EARLY LED ZEP
and maybe Photography, with opinions being FOR, AGAINST, and NANATSU

Because a person is not a taxi perhaps? And the 'service' which you're talking about requires a person to be exploited and objectified....and I don't ever recall getting HIV from riding in a taxi, or huge numbers of taxi drivers ending up with PTSD or any other number of pyschological conditions...from driving the damn taxi.
Every time I ask the taxi driver to take me somewhere, I am still providing him with respect. I am not asking him to give me anything which will be of cost to him.
We are talking about PEOPLE. And yes, we are sexual beings. But sex is not purely biological. There are emotional, and as much as you may hate me saying it spiritual aspects of sex. If sex were purely biological, then rape would mean nothing. Incest would mean nothing. But there are many other complicated aspects to it. It is not black and white. And people can be and are damaged by it. Especially in prostitution.
Claiming that you can seperate a person from sex and their sexuality, is absolute bullshit.


I never asked if you bought the taxi, I asked if you bought the driver. You don't. All you buy is his time and driving skill, as well as renting his car for a limited period.
Taxi drivers put themselves at risk of car accidents on a daily basis (most of them not very harmful, but still) , as well as being robbed and murdered by passengers (oh yes, that does happen).

Rape is a form of serious bodily harm, which is why it is a crime. Incest doesn't mean anything, it's a purely social construct.


I never said anything about outlawing it. I said that I did not support it. Do I support the people involved....obviously. I work in welfare. Do I support the concept of prostitution. Hell no. Do I support it more when it is legal? No. Because the evidence to date says that it doesn't make a scrap of difference to the women who are being exploited.
If you actually read the papers which I linked (unless the link didn't work, in which case I'll try again) they don't just speak about human trafficking. They speak about legalising and decriminalising prostitution. And it takes into account countries like the Netherlands, where there is no huge stigma around it...and guess what, its still ugly. It doesn't fix anything.


Oh dear... and where did I say I supported prostitution?
I said I support legalising it, in order to stop victimising women. No, it's not nice. No, I don't think prostitute is a great career choice? No, I most certainly don't think it's totally without problems.
But I also don't think that those problems will ever go away, so they need to be dealt with. And that is simply impossible as long as it's illegal.


If you're talking about police protection, the studies say that it makes no difference. In fact, then there is debate about whether a prostitute can even accuse someone of rape.
These women are desperate BEFORE prostitution. The only solution to making it safer for women, is to get supports in place BEFORE they end up in the sex trade. Providing women with housing, social supports, decent education and vocational training. This is the only way to stop the exploitation in this area.
Legal does not equal safe in this type of work.

Police protection is only part of the deal. And no, there should be NO discussion if prostitutes can be raped.
German prostitutes have founded a union and are providing information, money and legal support to prostitutes.
Yes, it would be better to catch them before they prostitute themselves, forced or otherwise. But realistically, I very much doubt that's possible. There's too much demand, it's a simple as that.


Then be angry at your father and at the priest.
You could equally draw the conclusion that men are arseholes, as much as you could conclude that christians are arseholes. But you wouldn't discount all men based on that, it'd be stupid. So why dump on religion based on the same thing?

I'm not angry at any religion. I just had a long, hard look at its message, and decided it's not compatible with my personal morals.


You are comparing a harmoneous marriage to slavery? Didn't you read what I posted before about the man's role as a husband? He submits too! Because the idea of marriage is that two people become one.
You cannot have a good relationship without submission. And I do not mean submission in the way you obviously mean it. You mean slavery. But how do you make a decision together, if neither one can compromise? If they are too busy demanding their own way to think about the other person? If both of them are demanding to have things their way all the time, the relationship will not work. Sorry, but thats just the way it is.
But someone submitting in a loving relationship, does not make them a slave. It does not make them stupid, or backwards. It means that they are adult enough not to think about themselves all the time. It does not mean that the women stands behind the man. That she has to dumb herself down or that she has no say, no rights, no voice.
What happened with your parents, it was not submission. That was your dad forcing his will on your mum. That is not in any way shape or form what the bible is outlining for a marriage.

A compromise is not a submission. And yes, you can have a very good relationship without submission. It's called tolerance and compromise.

Also, please do show me where the bible says the husband should submit to his wife? I remember well a bit about him being her head, implying she should be subject and not think for herself....


No, I do not agree with that last statement. Because it outlines the role of the husband BEFORE the role of the wife. So your father and the priest decided, because it was in their best interest not to follow what was in the bible, and manipulate the role of the woman which is outlined. It is not a matter of interpretation. It is ignoring what is plain in front of you.
Thats like ignoring a step in a recipe and adding your own, and then wondering why your cupcakes are salty and burned.

Yes, you're right, I asked you why.....Sorry about that. I am just frustrated.

Sure, and the role of the husband is loving her (which I've no doubt he did), and doing what's best for her (again, he no doubt thought it was). Your point being?

I never asked if you bought the taxi, I asked if you bought the driver. You don't. All you buy is his time and driving skill, as well as renting his car for a limited period.
Taxi drivers put themselves at risk of car accidents on a daily basis (most of them not very harmful, but still) , as well as being robbed and murdered by passengers (oh yes, that does happen).

Rape is a form of serious bodily harm, which is why it is a crime. Incest doesn't mean anything, it's a purely social construct.



Oh dear... and where did I say I supported prostitution?
I said I support legalising it, in order to stop victimising women. No, it's not nice. No, I don't think prostitute is a great career choice? No, I most certainly don't think it's totally without problems.
But I also don't think that those problems will ever go away, so they need to be dealt with. And that is simply impossible as long as it's illegal.



Police protection is only part of the deal. And no, there should be NO discussion if prostitutes can be raped.
German prostitutes have founded a union and are providing information, money and legal support to prostitutes.
Yes, it would be better to catch them before they prostitute themselves, forced or otherwise. But realistically, I very much doubt that's possible. There's too much demand, it's a simple as that.



I'm not angry at any religion. I just had a long, hard look at its message, and decided it's not compatible with my personal morals.



A compromise is not a submission. And yes, you can have a very good relationship without submission. It's called tolerance and compromise.

Also, please do show me where the bible says the husband should submit to his wife? I remember well a bit about him being her head, implying she should be subject and not think for herself....



Sure, and the role of the husband is loving her (which I've no doubt he did), and doing what's best for her (again, he no doubt thought it was). Your point being?

Lawd, General is like the final boss of tl;dr

Lawd, General is like the final boss of tl;dr

If you don't care to read it, why bother to post?

In all honesty, Kat, I think you should close them all, or at least the ones that sprung after you posted this. They´re getting more vitriolic and vicious as we speak. Besides, it´s boring.

My biggest entertainment moments on NS are when people argue, and insist that this is a place of learning and sage arguments amongst intellectuals...
And yet there are so, so many incarnations surrounding the exact same kernel. Over and over again.

I never asked if you bought the taxi, I asked if you bought the driver. You don't. All you buy is his time and driving skill, as well as renting his car for a limited period.
Taxi drivers put themselves at risk of car accidents on a daily basis (most of them not very harmful, but still) , as well as being robbed and murdered by passengers (oh yes, that does happen).

Rape is a form of serious bodily harm, which is why it is a crime. Incest doesn't mean anything, it's a purely social construct.

So when you buy a person for sex, you are only buying their time and their sexual skill? Except, you cannot seperate a person from their sexuality. Not to mention the overwhelming proof that prostitution is harmful to the 'selling' party. Oh yes, taxi drivers put themselves at risk when they drive a car, can get robbed, be murdered (rarely though)...much like the risk I take when I walk out onto the street. However, there is a huge difference between daily risk and the risks taken in the sex trade, which are not reduced by legalisation.
Rape is a form of serious bodily harm...yeah... my point was that even when legal, police have a very difficult job protecting them. How do you prove that a prostitute has been raped? It is more difficult because of her profession. That was my only point bringing up rape. That legalising it, doesn't protect the people you would like to be protected.
And as for incest...yeah its a social construct...and maybe would be irrelevant, if not for the huge number of prostitutes who were sexually abused as children. The sex trade takes advantaged of people who were disadvantaged, and those who went without help.

And if you bother to read the links i provided. You will see that they are not just 'purchased' for a limited time. Then everyone gets to go home and its finished. The effects of 'selling' are long standing.

Until you actually read up on the effects of prostitution on women and their families, the issues surrounding legalisation, the giant flop legalisation has been, the psychological issues, the diseases etc. Then there really is no point in continuing this discussion.
And I've seen you become very passionate about women's rights in other threads...to have you label prostitution as a simple purchase/selling of goods...is a little baffling. I've seen you kick up a stink about abortion, and a woman's choice to her own body. And its completely contradicted if you read up on what prostitution actually entails. Legal or not.



Oh dear... and where did I say I supported prostitution?
I said I support legalising it, in order to stop victimising women. No, it's not nice. No, I don't think prostitute is a great career choice? No, I most certainly don't think it's totally without problems.
But I also don't think that those problems will ever go away, so they need to be dealt with. And that is simply impossible as long as it's illegal.

German prostitutes have founded a union and are providing information, money and legal support to prostitutes.
Yes, it would be better to catch them before they prostitute themselves, forced or otherwise. But realistically, I very much doubt that's possible. There's too much demand, it's a simple as that.

Except, legalising it doesn't stop the victimising of women. In most of the literature I've read...it doesn't even help a little bit! Anyway, I've already given you the literature. I'm not reading it for you.

Hey, we know it victimises women, we know that legalising it doesn't make it any better, we know that it exploits the weakest members of society....but there's too much demand. Simple as that.
Let's legalise it so at least it looks like we're concerned with whats happening to these women. The bandaid solution always works so well. Especially when we can't be arsed to get the funding to prevent it in the first place.

Anyway, I will discuss christianity with you if you want. But I'm not willing to speak on this subject anymore.

The question of prostitution has become something of a hijack, it's true.

I believe this is how it started (I've left the posts intact lest I be accused of ignoring the context that prostitution was in) :

In Ireland, Christianity has some serious and unfortunate influence on general legislation. They initiated and maintain legislation as to when alcohol can be sold, for instance, practically outlawed prostitution, and are trying to reduce the availability of contraception.

Christians have previously tried to prevent me from shopping at Ann Summers.
People have tried to convert me in the street, on busses, on my doorstep and on occasion at the cinema.
Christians back in Germany have told my mother that it's her duty to stay with my abusive father if she doesn't want to go to hell (and yes, my mother was stupid and brainwashed enough to believe that).

And they are constantly trying to gain more influence, and curtail my hard-won liberties again.

Well, I dunno whether I'd be gunning for prostitution. But I can see how the other 2 examples would get on your nerves.

I've never heard of Ann Summers....sorry! Is it a clothing store?
Best way to get rid of a christian, is to tell them you're already saved. I do that with the jehovah's when they come knocking. They lose interest when they find out I won't be able to help them with their 'converted' or 'witnessed to' quotas. (Which I find ridiculous).
And I don't know what those christians were thinking with your mum :( Christianity does allow for divorce. And why those christians weren't giving your mum a safe place is beyond me. I think people run away from issues like that. Its easy to give a general answer and put your head in the sand. People did it to me when I became very sick. I was told I was a terrible christian. It probably doesn't mean much. But I'm sorry about your mum.



Illegal prostitution allows for greater exploitation of women, while allowing some men far greater profits from it. It's work like any other, and ought to be provided with legislation regarding workplace safety, health care, pension, social security and normal police protection. Anything else is just putting your head in the sand and allowing women to be exploited.


Ann Summers (http://annsummersireland.ie/) Please tell me that was a joke that you've never heard of it... every woman should own a Rampant Rabbit. Seriously.

And no, I won't stoop to lying just cause it's the only way to get rid of Christian missionaries.

Christianity has this little "what god brought together" bit in its marriage ceremony. Which makes it a serious sin in the eyes of some to try and get out of a very bad situation. And they tend not to hesitate telling others.

The context is more important than the example.

Piu alla vita, there is an enormous middle ground between "discussing Christianity" and "discussing prostitution" which it is not clear if you are willing to discuss.

I'd say "let's get back on topic" except that I'm not sure there IS a topic. But I'm interested in the question of whether a religion and a political ideology can really be compared with each other.

Can we even define what is political? Or what is religious?

So when you buy a person for sex, you are only buying their time and their sexual skill? Except, you cannot seperate a person from their sexuality.
Are you suggesting that when I hire a maid for her cleaning and organizing skill, she is my SLAVE and we cannot separate her personhood from her job? That's a pretty horrid attitude.


Not to mention the overwhelming proof that prostitution is harmful to the 'selling' party. Oh yes, taxi drivers put themselves at risk when they drive a car, can get robbed, be murdered (rarely though)...much like the risk I take when I walk out onto the street. However, there is a huge difference between daily risk and the risks taken in the sex trade, which are not reduced by legalisation.
Certainly they are reduced by legalization -- in places like Nevada that have laws regarding sexual trade, there are regular physicals and medical care for women working at legal brothels, and legal recourse under the law. It's the sex trade workers who work illegally who have a more dangerous time -- but just so, they choose it.

Rape is a form of serious bodily harm...yeah... my point was that even when legal, police have a very difficult job protecting them. How do you prove that a prostitute has been raped? It is more difficult because of her profession. That was my only point bringing up rape. That legalising it, doesn't protect the people you would like to be protected.
I would imagine that if she's been forced, there is physical proof of having force used (bruises, cuts, etc.) and she's screaming, "No" it's as easy to tell if she's being raped as for a pure and good girl -- aka a non prostitute. :rolleyes: Or do you merely discount her allegation because she's a whore and probably wasn't REALLY raped?

And as for incest...yeah its a social construct...and maybe would be irrelevant, if not for the huge number of prostitutes who were sexually abused as children. The sex trade takes advantaged of people who were disadvantaged, and those who went without help.
And that's EVERY prostitute? Every single one? People don't decide to do it for other reasons -- just because they were sexually abused?

And if you bother to read the links i provided. You will see that they are not just 'purchased' for a limited time. Then everyone gets to go home and its finished. The effects of 'selling' are long standing.
The effects of being a teacher are longstanding, despite my being able to go home after 3:00pm... your point?

Until you actually read up on the effects of prostitution on women and their families, the issues surrounding legalisation, the giant flop legalisation has been, the psychological issues, the diseases etc. Then there really is no point in continuing this discussion.
Unless you decide to think of them as people who make decisions -- flawed, perhaps, but then who makes 100% correct decisions all of the time -- rather than pets or children who must be protected from themselves, there is no point in discussing this -- because seriously, that's what this sounds like: condescension. Neither we nor the sex trade worker could POSSIBLY understand the choice they are making.

And I've seen you become very passionate about women's rights in other threads...to have you label prostitution as a simple purchase/selling of goods...is a little baffling. I've seen you kick up a stink about abortion, and a woman's choice to her own body. And its completely contradicted if you read up on what prostitution actually entails. Legal or not.The complete irony is that you are categorically denying these women the right to choose what to do with their body, exactly as some people want to deny women the right to not have a child she doesn't want to have, or god forbid have a job, choose her own husband, and not be slave to the whims of the men in her life who know better.

Except, legalising it doesn't stop the victimising of women. In most of the literature I've read...it doesn't even help a little bit! Anyway, I've already given you the literature. I'm not reading it for you.
People choose to drink knowing that abusing drink is harmful. Do we deny them the choice?

People choose to smoke knowing that it's harmful. Do we deny them the choice?

People choose to play sports, knowing that eventually they are GOING to get hurt. Do we prevent them playing sports?

Do we act like they are mentally incapable of understanding the risks?

Hey, we know it victimises women, we know that legalising it doesn't make it any better, we know that it exploits the weakest members of society....but there's too much demand. Simple as that.
Let's legalise it so at least it looks like we're concerned with whats happening to these women. The bandaid solution always works so well. Especially when we can't be arsed to get the funding to prevent it in the first place.
We don't know that, it's your opinion. And for Christ's sake, they call it the world's oldest profession for a reason. You think that because you don't like their choices, you're going to change anything? If anything, making it illegal is what victimizes women, because they can't come forward to report their mistreatment without risking punishment and condescension. But yes, let's throw money at it anyway because it's easier to objectify women as too stupid to handle their own personhood, because it offends morals, and because then we don't actually have to treat them as thinking humanbeings who deserve the same protections as others. No, as long as we pat them paternally on the head and call them victims, it's easier to convince ourselves that we're BETTER than they are.

Anyway, I will discuss christianity with you if you want. But I'm not willing to speak on this subject anymore.
Given that Christ was closely associated with a prostitute and told people who judged her that they might want to consider their own morality....

If you don't care to read it, why bother to post?

I'm expressing my opinion. =D

I'm expressing my opinion. =D

and a fine one at that.

I'm expressing my opinion. =D

of the post. Not of the content.

Surely you can see the downward spiral toward /b/dom in that?

and a fine one at that.

You agree with Vakirauta then? I am free to attack you as though you had posted that yourself?

I only ask, because it would be rude to attack Vak on the subject of the first post of theirs I have seen. Whereas I know you relatively well.

(ALL THAT FOLLOWS IS THE EDIT): I realize this might seem needlessly combative. MHiJ is a mild poster, not unlike Thumbless Pete Crabbe. Few would consider MHiJ deserving of displaced hostility. But it really isn't like that: I am instead stating a standard I hope to impose upon myself: "to approve an opinion without reservation is to undertake to defend that opinion oneself."

I think this would be a really good way forward in this forum: to form TEAMS in debate, to have debaters declare themselves to a particular side, then to adopt and augment the opinions of their team-mates. As in an old-fashioned debate, they would take turns but have equal standing, equal time ... and their case would be judged on the merit of the arguments of the entire team.

I realize that this would not be simple to achieve here, where any poster can make a new account at their pleasure, and endorse an opinion only to later discredit it. But I have not yet given up on devising a method for it, TG's on this subject (as on any other!) are welcome.

Simply, I play the game. But I want to change the rules.
Katganistan: there must be better ways to leave than "Mad Mod DOS by the Mob"
(I play the game by asking only for TG's, rather than making my deliberations out of sight of the NS moderators using private messaging. I have never, in my two years posting here, and within my knowledge, communicated with any NSG-er by any method but in-forum, or by TG. Both are visible to mods. I won't play the game except by the rules, and I have played by further rules of my own: I haven't pursued invitations to off-site communications like IM or Facebook. {Well, I went to Smunkeeville's site and played a game of Mafia, I think this is the only exception.} I am entirely public to the Mods, and almost entirely public to the forum. I'm playing fair as best I know how. Until recently, I never looked at pictures NSGers posted of themselves, nor followed links to their personal pages. I tried to form my image of them only by their words. I was right in that, and deeply regret seeing their faces. Kyronea was the first I saw, and that early in my posterhood, and I learnt by how my opinion changed in his favour that a poster with a face is harder to judge by their words. My respect for Kyronea persists, I must add. I resisted the urge to find the poster behind the post for more than a year, but I have recently fallen from that. Now I am prejudiced, and patchily.)

Was it Gravlen whose signature once did read: "I am genderless IRC crew, fear me!" ? Oh, I wish we could just go back and do this all again!

The trajectory of the self-aware in the universe of random is cruel: from fool in a world of wonderful opportunity, to lost opportunity in a world of foolishness.

To live on NSG is to live a little life. Birth may be painful, and death also ... but the ascent, the youth of posterdom, is the prime of it.

Take this tooth, fellow posters. Bite what you will.

"to approve an opinion without reservation is to undertake to defend that opinion oneself."*bows*
I may have just enough room at the bottom (after Sumamba Buwhan's response a little bit back to Neesika) "Invoking Nobel Hobos' hostility since 6/18/08"
Maybe a colour too, if there's room. :)

Are you suggesting that when I hire a maid for her cleaning and organizing skill, she is my SLAVE and we cannot separate her personhood from her job? That's a pretty horrid attitude.



And that's EVERY prostitute? Every single one? People don't decide to do it for other reasons -- just because they were sexually abused?


The effects of being a teacher are longstanding, despite my being able to go home after 3:00pm... your point?

The complete irony is that you are categorically denying these women the right to choose what to do with their body, exactly as some people want to deny women the right to not have a child she doesn't want to have, or god forbid have a job, choose her own husband, and not be slave to the whims of the men in her life who know better.


People choose to drink knowing that abusing drink is harmful. Do we deny them the choice?

People choose to smoke knowing that it's harmful. Do we deny them the choice?

People choose to play sports, knowing that eventually they are GOING to get hurt. Do we prevent them playing sports?

Do we act like they are mentally incapable of understanding the risks?


We don't know that, it's your opinion. And for Christ's sake, they call it the world's oldest profession for a reason. You think that because you don't like their choices, you're going to change anything? If anything, making it illegal is what victimizes women, because they can't come forward to report their mistreatment without risking punishment and condescension. But yes, let's throw money at it anyway because it's easier to objectify women as too stupid to handle their own personhood, because it offends morals, and because then we don't actually have to treat them as thinking humanbeings who deserve the same protections as others. No, as long as we pat them paternally on the head and call them victims, it's easier to convince ourselves that we're BETTER than they are.


Given that Christ was closely associated with a prostitute and told people who judged her that they might want to consider their own morality....

I've already said that I am not debating this topic anymore with Cabra. And I will point you to the same response, and add that even if I were going to debate it with you....I would ask you to re-read my posts and maybe work on your comprehension skills...because you have either completely ignored previous points I have made, taken my words out of context and drawn your own conclusions about what I'm saying based on the above mentioned reasons.
And before you pull out the 'consider your own morality, you judgemental christian'...you may want to read what it is I actually do for a living. Because I work with street workers and other women and their families involved in the sex industry. And I have seen it all. I do not judge the women, I do see them as capable of making good decisions....however, I do not see them given the opportunity to express their own capability very often. There is a cycle of harm. And the literature supports that. It also supports that legalisation is like a drop in the ocean, and that it does not help the women involved. I have earned the right to be pissed off about the subject. These women are not numbers for me, they are not some moral debate or political subject. And I didn't think it would strike such a nerve in me...so I am ending it now. But don't ever question my morality again.
We can all go back to the original topic....which was...something or other..