NationStates Jolt Archive

Really, I think that Christianity is an evolved paganism. When the Christians moved in, almost every single one of their holidays is a pagan ceremony. Valentine's Day: a monk marries people despite the evil ruler NO. Lupercalia Festival for Aphrodite (this is during time of Caesar, before was devoted to a wolf-god.) Christmas: birth of christ NO. Pagan festival celebrating rebirth of the sun. I dare any christian to find an aspect of their religion that is not borrowed from another religion.

I would like to say that I do like Christianity. I support it, if not believe in it. The people who do not become fanatics often end up doing good in the world for their god, even if it does close their minds.

Please do not insult any religion without evidence. I do not want this thread to be closed down for ppl mindlessly insulting Christians.

Really, I think that Christianity is an evolved paganism. When the Christians moved in, almost every single one of their holidays is a pagan ceremony. Valentine's Day: a monk marries people despite the evil ruler NO. Lupercal Festival for Aphrodite Christmas: birth of christ NO. Pagan festival celebrating rebirth of the sun. I dare any christian to find an aspect of their religion that is not borrowed from another religion.

Not to mention all the ¨pagan¨ deities that all of a sudden, became saints all over Europe with the spread of Christianity. Saint Brigid, for example, is none other that the Goddess Bríde, from Celtic lore.

Not to mention all the ¨pagan¨ deities that all of a sudden, became saints all over Europe with the spread of Christianity. Saint Brigid, for example, is none other that the Goddess Bríde, from Celtic lore.

I think that the history of Christianity is fascinating. Twisted, but fascinating. Really, it is amazing that the christians ate it.

True fact:

The Pope officially baptized coffee, seen as an Islamic drink, in order to make it acceptable for Christian consumption.

Oh, there's definitely a bond between christianity and paganism, but it isn't evolutionary. Christianity adopted pagan holidays into christian ones to absorb, assimilate and destroy paganism. Let's be more specific: Catholicism assimilated paganism. They've been assimilating religions and cultures since the end of the Roman Empire...which they assimilated. :p

I think that the history of Christianity is fascinating. Twisted, but fascinating. Really, it is amazing that the christians ate it.

Yes, it is. Twisted, but it sort of explains the horrible nature of us, human beings.

Blind faith, mate, blind faith is what´s for Christian dinner.

Take care not to confuse Christianity with Catholicism. Just because the Catholic church declares someone a "Saint", that doesn't mean all Christians do.

True fact:

The Pope officially baptized coffee, seen as an Islamic drink, in order to make it acceptable for Christian consumption.

He did what?:eek:

Now that´s one of the silliest things the Popes have done. Baptize coffee.

Oh, there's definitely a bond between christianity and paganism, but it isn't evolutionary. Christianity adopted pagan holidays into christian ones to absorb, assimilate and destroy paganism. Let's be more specific: Catholicism assimilated paganism. They've been assimilating religions and cultures since the end of the Roman Empire...which they assimilated. :p

When Christianity absorbed paganism in an attempt to destroy it... wait a minute. I thought that they did it so that Pagans would convert. Okay, yeah I see, that would destroy paganism. However, in the process, the only really big difference between pagans and christians became the one god bit. This one god can be broken intto different categories, but that is really the only difference that I can see (not including the strange practices of each denomination.)

Really, I think that Christianity is an evolved paganism. When the Christians moved in, almost every single one of their holidays is a pagan ceremony. Valentine's Day: a monk marries people despite the evil ruler NO. Lupercalia Festival for Aphrodite (this is during time of Caesar, before was devoted to a wolf-god.) Christmas: birth of christ NO. Pagan festival celebrating rebirth of the sun. I dare any christian to find an aspect of their religion that is not borrowed from another religion.

I would like to say that I do like Christianity. I support it, if not believe in it. The people who do not become fanatics often end up doing good in the world for their god, even if it does close their minds.

Transsubstantiation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsubstantiation)

Even the Greeks from whom the concept of formal essences was derived would barely have understood transsubstantiation.

But beyond me pointing to particular practices, I would say that "influenced by" and "derived from" are distinct terms, but may not be distinguishable on the basis of available evidence. If people decided to match the date of celebrating Christmas with the winter Solstice (which they largely did), that doesn't mean that Christmas itself is a pagan holiday, only that it's placement on the calendar is good p.r. for competing against pagans. But I may not be able to prove either one is the case given the evidence. So I think you may be asking for more than the data can provide.

Take care not to confuse Christianity with Catholicism. Just because the Catholic church declares someone a "Saint", that doesn't mean all Christians do.

Typical, I assume you´re Protestant or the like, but do you know a Christian is anyone who believes in Christ? Catholics do too, believe it or not.

And up until the late 1500s early 1600s, every Christian on the face of the earth believe what the Catholic Church believed. Luther came later, darling.

Just because you don´t follow the precepts of the Pope and Peter´s Church doesn´t mean that historically, Christianity hasn´t assimilated other religions in order to survive and adapt because it has. Declaring pagan gods and goddesses was one of those survival and adaptation tactics. Same as taking pagan holidays for their calendar. Learn your stuff.

i won't deny that we borrowed holiday ideas from other people (although there were actually a couple Saint Valentines, and Jesus' birthday is important). We also took time periods: once the people took up a new faith, why not use our old holiday season for a new god? It's not like we forcefully stole it or anything- look up the persecution of Christians in Rome, we couldn't have. it just happened as of itself.

And our theology itself is original (certain themes do mirror each other, but the human condition and the makings we believe God put in us are universal). Who else has a God who is all about forgiveness? Everyone else's gods killed people quite actively. And whose God was humiliatingly executed by his own free will? no on can compare (except for those who came after, because our ideas were out there). I know Christians often don't act like this themselves. that's because, although we worship God, we are human and imperfect ourselves, and we do wrong/stupid things. (as you can tell, I'm not a Midwestern protestant Fundamentalist- thank God for modern Catholicism, much more tolerant now that we're disentangled from the Middle Ages and the Holy Roman Empire).

And please, nobody bring up Wicca. A religion invented off the top of some huy's head in the 1800s honestly doesn't count for much. You can't disprove the starts of the Abrahimic faiths or the Dharmic faiths (I may not be a Hindu and i think they're rather crazy, but I love them), but you can dissect wicca in minutes.

He did what?:eek:

Now that´s one of the silliest things the Popes have done. Baptize coffee.

I think it's pretty awesome. It shows that he doesn't give a shit.

Transsubstantiation. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsubstantiation)

Even the Greeks from whom the concept of formal essences was derived would barely have understood transsubstantiation.

But beyond me pointing to particular practices, I would say that "influenced by" and "derived from" are distinct terms, but may not be distinguishable on the basis of available evidence. If people decided to match the date of celebrating Christmas with the winter Solstice (which they largely did), that doesn't mean that Christmas itself is a pagan holiday, only that it's placement on the calendar is good p.r. for competing against pagans. But I may not be able to prove either one is the case given the evidence. So I think you may be asking for more than the data can provide.

What are you getting at here?

i won't deny that we borrowed holiday ideas from other people (although there were actually a couple Saint Valentines, and Jesus' birthday is important). We also took time periods: once the people took up a new faith, why not use our old holiday season for a new god? It's not like we forcefully stole it or anything- look up the persecution of Christians in Rome, we couldn't have. it just happened as of itself.

And our theology itself is original (certain themes do mirror each other, but the human condition and the makings we believe God put in us are universal). Who else has a God who is all about forgiveness? Everyone else's gods killed people quite actively. And whose God was humiliatingly executed by his own free will? no on can compare (except for those who came after, because our ideas were out there). I know Christians often don't act like this themselves. that's because, although we worship God, we are human and imperfect ourselves, and we do wrong/stupid things. (as you can tell, I'm not a Midwestern protestant Fundamentalist- thank God for modern Catholicism, much more tolerant now that we're disentangled from the Middle Ages and the Holy Roman Empire).

And please, nobody bring up Wicca. A religion invented off the top of some huy's head in the 1800s honestly doesn't count for much. You can't disprove the starts of the Abrahimic faiths or the Dharmic faiths (I may not be a Hindu and i think they're rather crazy, but I love them), but you can dissect wicca in minutes.

You were not the first monotheistic religion, and you were not the first religion with a forgiving god. Do your homework before you defend your religion, makes Christians look stupider as a group than ever.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_were_the_first_people_to_practice_monotheism

first monotheistic god at link above.

yes, the papacy in the Middle Ages was honestly pretty cracked, and several of the earlier saints are a little suspect. all the later saints, though, actually existed, for one thing, and now the pope is not involved in the Holy roman Empire and European politics, so now the church can actually teach Christianity and not the opinion of 5 different kings, 12 nobles, and 8 politicians.

When Christianity absorbed paganism in an attempt to destroy it... wait a minute. I thought that they did it so that Pagans would convert. Okay, yeah I see, that would destroy paganism. However, in the process, the only really big difference between pagans and christians became the one god bit. This one god can be broken intto different categories, but that is really the only difference that I can see (not including the strange practices of each denomination.)

Even more so then than now, faith equaled power for the Catholic Chuch. Enough following and therefore enough power made them kingmakers. Adopting a few silly holidays was a small price to pay for extending their influence with aristocracy by controlling the masses.

Even more so then than now, faith equaled power for the Catholic Chuch. Enough following and therefore enough power made them kingmakers. Adopting a few silly holidays was a small price to pay for extending their influence with aristocracy by controlling the masses.

We are not talking about borrowing a few of your religious holidays. We are talking about every single one of your holidays.

i never said we were the first monotheists (and Judaism is not the oldest surviving religion). and find some other god who killed himself to redeem the world, preached constant nonviolence, healed the damn ear of someone arresting him to lead him to a bloody, painful, and humiliating death, and said openly that weapons only led to death ("those who live by the sword shall perish by the sword"). prove to me your "forgiving god" bit. you're the one looking stupid here, my friend.

we adopted the dates and celebrations of holidays, but our own theology is in it, not theirs.

we adopted the dates and celebrations of holidays, but our own theology is in it, not theirs.

name a random Christian holiday please.

name a random Christian holiday please.

What can you dig up about these holidays:

Dormition of the Theotokos
Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy

I think it's pretty awesome. It shows that he doesn't give a shit.

Either that, or he´s just a ridiculous fop.

good friday.

look, i agree w/ what you're trying to say, but we're simply using the same time of the year. What matters is not whether we're opening presents in winter, it matters why we're doing it. I'm not doing his for some random lesser deity, I'm doing this for my god. Many cultures clap, sing, and make statues, but that doesn't devalue their doing it, does it?

good friday.

look, i agree w/ what you're trying to say, but we're simply using the same time of the year. What matters is not whether we're opening presents in winter, it matters why we're doing it. I'm not doing his for some random lesser deity, I'm doing this for my god. Many cultures clap, sing, and make statues, but that doesn't devalue their doing it, does it?

Good Friday, also called Holy Friday or Great Friday, is the Friday immediately preceding Easter Sunday. It commemorates the crucifixion and death of Jesus at Calvary.

Nothing pagan about it...totally a Christian observance. Sorry to disappoint you!


Although I would like to know how we got from Jesus dieing on a cross to a bunny passing an egg.

Nice. I like you.

i won't deny that we borrowed holiday ideas from other people (although there were actually a couple Saint Valentines, and Jesus' birthday is important). We also took time periods: once the people took up a new faith, why not use our old holiday season for a new god? It's not like we forcefully stole it or anything- look up the persecution of Christians in Rome, we couldn't have. it just happened as of itself.

And our theology itself is original (certain themes do mirror each other, but the human condition and the makings we believe God put in us are universal). Who else has a God who is all about forgiveness? Everyone else's gods killed people quite actively. And whose God was humiliatingly executed by his own free will? no on can compare (except for those who came after, because our ideas were out there). I know Christians often don't act like this themselves. that's because, although we worship God, we are human and imperfect ourselves, and we do wrong/stupid things. (as you can tell, I'm not a Midwestern protestant Fundamentalist- thank God for modern Catholicism, much more tolerant now that we're disentangled from the Middle Ages and the Holy Roman Empire).

And please, nobody bring up Wicca. A religion invented off the top of some huy's head in the 1800s honestly doesn't count for much. You can't disprove the starts of the Abrahimic faiths or the Dharmic faiths (I may not be a Hindu and i think they're rather crazy, but I love them), but you can dissect wicca in minutes.

Wrong in all counts. Christ dying in the cross, the god of the tree of Greek mythology. Story of the Great Flood, check Sumerian mythology. Christianity is a borrowing of a borrowing.

Know your stuff before posting.

you have proven me wrong in that not every christian holiday has been copied from other religion. that was the point of this thread. let us see if we can find 2 lol:D

you have proven me wrong in that not every christian holiday has been copied from other religion. that was the point of this thread. let us see if we can find 2 lol:D

Isn´t Good Friday a Christianization of Freya´s Day?

*runs off to check if she´s right in that*

Not of Freya, no. But the calculation for Good Friday is as follows:

This common tradition only allows one day and two nights. If you count parts of Friday and Sunday as whole days, you still only have three days and two nights. The math does not work! There are only two nights! Of course, once Constantine and the religious compromisers at the council of Nicea in AD325 had subscribed to sun and moon worship for setting the date, it was not difficult to further reject the words of Jesus Christ and create their Good Friday - Easter Sunday combination. They know Jesus was buried Wednesday night and rose Saturday night, just as He had declared would be the proof of His identity.
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/holidays/easter-problems.htm

Erroneous.

We are not talking about borrowing a few of your religious holidays. We are talking about every single one of your holidays.
Er... WHICH holidays? The Catholic Church celebrates hundreds of them. Other denominations have different calendars that they use or recognize one day instead of another, or one holiday, but not another. Honestly, there's a Christian holiday just about every single day of the year. Pretty sure that Pagans didn't originally invent all of them.

busy doing my homework for this thread and now we have Nordic, Skandian, Egyptian, and Sumerian in with the Paganism. Liked paganism most out of all of those. Vikings had pretty cool gods though.

Isn´t Good Friday a Christianization of Freya´s Day?

*runs off to check if she´s right in that*

got anything for us? our 1 holiday may be at 0 again lol

you have proven me wrong in that not every christian holiday has been copied from other religion. that was the point of this thread. let us see if we can find 2 lol:D
Off the top of my head?
Ash Wednesday, Lent, and Advent. Oh, Palm Sunday too.

Off the top of my head?
Ash Wednesday, Lent, and Advent. Oh, Palm Sunday too.

quite a list. will give answers on each. but can somebody else help with this other than guy researching freya's day?

Off the top of my head?
Ash Wednesday, Lent, and Advent. Oh, Palm Sunday too.

http://www.ukapologetics.net/LENT.html here is ash wendesday, lent and easter's pagan origins.

Off the top of my head?
Ash Wednesday, Lent, and Advent. Oh, Palm Sunday too.

wow, talk about dirt on palm wendesday
http://ancienthistory.about.com/b/2004/03/21/pagan-origins-of-palm-sunday.htm

you have proven me wrong in that not every christian holiday has been copied from other religion. that was the point of this thread. let us see if we can find 2 lol:D

Pentecost
Transfiguration
Annunciation
Exaltation of the Holy Cross
Nativity of the Theotokos
Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy

There are actually a lot of "original" Christian holidays. Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy is my personal favorite Christian holiday. (And I'm not even Christian)

Of course, Christians didn't invent the very concept of "holiday" or "deity" but they have themselves covered when it comes to producing holidays.

http://www.ukapologetics.net/LENT.html here is ash wendesday, lent and easter's pagan origins.

Easter, celebrated by Christians, and a very important period of the Christian calendar, isn´t even in the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter#Easter_controversy

Now it's a common fact (historically speaking, not in a mythological sense (not that mythology and cold harsh empirical facts have very much in common, but that can't be helped... )) that Christianity as a system is a fascinating hybrid consisting of the basic assumptions of an originally rather obscure, yet uncannily successfull Jewish sect (Yeah, it's tempting to put the cryptic will of God in the equation here, I guess) and the assimilation of quite a few pagan religious/cultural practices. Frankly, I don't see what's all the hubbub's about.

http://www.ukapologetics.net/LENT.html here is ash wendesday, lent and easter's pagan origins.
Did you bother to read that before you posted it, or did you just Google and hope like hell it said what you wanted it to say?

Except for mentioning that many Easter symbols are Pagan in origin, it noted the Biblical sources of each, how it is celebrated, and why. It didn't note any Pagan sources for the above.

Easter, celebrated by Christians, and a very important period of the Christian calendar, isn´t even in the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter#Easter_controversy

Only Protestants believe the Bible is the sole legitimate authority of what Christianity is about. Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox also believe the Bible is accompanied by the so called "Holy Tradition", a collection of writings and practices (which do indeed incorporate many pagan beliefs and rituals)

wow, talk about dirt on palm wendesday
http://ancienthistory.about.com/b/2004/03/21/pagan-origins-of-palm-sunday.htm
Nice try, except that Palm Sunday isn't a fixed date and I would need to see more than a paragraph to see a connection.

Now it's a common fact (historically speaking, not in a mythological sense (not that mythology and cold harsh empirical facts have very much in common, but that can't be helped... )) that Christianity as a system is a fascinating hybrid consisting of the basic assumptions of an originally rather obscure, yet uncannily successfull Jewish sect (Yeah, it's tempting to put the cryptic will of God in the equation here, I guess) and the assimilation of quite a few pagan religious/cultural practices. Frankly, I don't see what's all the hubbub's about.

I think the hubbub´s in the intent of the OP to pit us all against each other on the subject of how unoriginal Christianity´s being for the past 2 millennia.

Only Protestants believe the Bible is the sole legitimate authority of what Christianity is about. Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox also believe the Bible is accompanied by the so called "Holy Tradition", a collection of writings and practices (which do indeed incorporate many pagan beliefs and rituals)

Are you referring to the ¨Hidden books¨ of the canon?

Easter, celebrated by Christians, and a very important period of the Christian calendar, isn´t even in the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter#Easter_controversy
Nanatsu, you're quite off. Easter, the resurrection of Jesus is indeed in the Bible, the DATE of Easter however is not. Or rather, it was tied into Passover and then moved to a Sunday.

Are you referring to the ¨Hidden books¨ of the canon?

No , the Apocrypha or so called "Hidden books" are fully considered part of the Bible (by Orthodox/Catholics).

I'm referring to things like Canon Laws, Pedalions, transcripts of the Ecumenical councils, writings and sayings of the Saints, and other such written and orrally transmitted matter.

and find some other god who killed himself to redeem the world,
Dionysus and Mithra.

preached constant nonviolence,
Hestia.

healed the damn ear of someone arresting him to lead him to a bloody, painful, and humiliating death,
Ridiculously overly specific. You might as well ask for another god that was named YHWH.

and said openly that weapons only led to death ("those who live by the sword shall perish by the sword").
Hestia said something similar, I believe.

I think the hubbub´s in the intent of the OP to pit us all against each other on the subject of how unoriginal Christianity´s being for the past 2 millennia.
Christianity has been rather crafty when it comes to reinventing itself. Hell, ever heard from the rise of the Protestant movement? The Vatican really tried to put a stop to it, but the Protestants actually fought back. Hence the Eighty Year War in the Netherlands and the particularly devastating Thirty Year War in the German territories. It was horrifying carnage and political trickery in one blood-drenched package.

Pentecost
Transfiguration
Annunciation
Exaltation of the Holy Cross
Nativity of the Theotokos
Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy

There are actually a lot of "original" Christian holidays. Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy is my personal favorite Christian holiday. (And I'm not even Christian)

Of course, Christians didn't invent the very concept of "holiday" or "deity" but they have themselves covered when it comes to producing holidays.

Sunday of Orthodox... sorta gave birth to another branch... is it in Bible?

http://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/2007/03/10/black-christs-found-all-over-the-world/
this site has to do with the story of Jesus and its pagan beginnings.

what is nativity of theokotos? cannot find anything about it.

No , the Apocrypha or so called "Hidden books" are fully considered part of the Bible (by Orthodox/Catholics).

On the issue of Apocrypha, how many books are there (of the ones not necessarily contained in the Bible)? I´m aware of the Book of Enoch, and I know of another one, but I can´t recall it´s name.

I'm referring to things like Canon Laws, Pedalions, transcripts of the Ecumenical councils, writings and sayings of the Saints, and other such written and orrally transmitted matter.

Ah, wait, now I´m following you. Like the edicts of Saint Agustine or Saint Teresa. Sorry, I´m slowly coming on, it´s been 10 years that I have set foot on a church, let alone hear Mass.

Dionysus and Mithra.


Hestia.


Ridiculously overly specific. You might as well ask for another god that was named YHWH.


Hestia said something similar, I believe.

I love you.

Nanatsu, you're quite off. Easter, the resurrection of Jesus is indeed in the Bible, the DATE of Easter however is not. Or rather, it was tied into Passover and then moved to a Sunday.

Yes, I´m aware that I´m off on this subject. I apologize.

Has anyone been watching closely enough for a while to see if there are any Christian holidays without copying another source (I do not want this to include things not in the Bible such as movements that created the denominations.)

Has anyone been watching closely enough for a while to see if there are any Christian holidays without copying another source (I do not want this to include things not in the Bible such as movements that created the denominations.)
Well, all that I mentioned are indeed in the Bible and you haven't found a Pagan source for them.

Yes, I´m aware that I´m off on this subject. I apologize.
'Tis ok. I understood what you were getting at, but the wording was a bit off.

Sunday of Orthodox... sorta gave birth to another branch... is it in Bible?

Sunday of Triumph of Orthodoxy celebrates the end of the iconoclasm controversy in the 8th century. It did not "give birth to another branch". You don't seem to be familiar with the history of Christianity.

It is not in the Bible because as I said this holiday was invented in the 8th century, hundreds of years after the Bible was written and hundreds of years after the Roman Empire became Christian.

http://yeyeolade.wordpress.com/2007/03/10/black-christs-found-all-over-the-world/
this site has to do with the story of Jesus and its pagan beginnings.

what is nativity of theokotos? cannot find anything about it.

Nativity of Theotokos celebrates the birth of Virgin Mary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_the_Theotokos

The Exaltation of the Holy Cross is another interesting holiday celebrated by Anglican, Catholic, and Orthodox Christians. It celebrates two things: the supposed finding of the True Cross in the 4th century, and the recovery of the True Cross from the Persians in the 7th century (The Persians had captured Jerusalem and carried off the True Cross back to Susa) Whether the True Cross was the actual cross of the crucifixion can be debated, but the historical events celebrated by this holiday certainly were not derived from pre-existing pagan festivals, and instead marks actual historical events in the history of Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_of_the_Holy_Cross

On the issue of Apocrypha, how many books are there (of the ones not necessarily contained in the Bible)? I´m aware of the Book of Enoch, and I know of another one, but I can´t recall it´s name.
I'm not sure off the top of my head but Wikipedia should have a detailed description of the Apocrypha. Also, different churches have different Apocryphas.

Did you bother to read that before you posted it, or did you just Google and hope like hell it said what you wanted it to say?

Except for mentioning that many Easter symbols are Pagan in origin, it noted the Biblical sources of each, how it is celebrated, and why. It didn't note any Pagan sources for the above.

True, I knew that there were pagan origins and figured that the page would include them. http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html lol, bothered to read this one. You said I had not disproved your holidays, are these the ones you were referring?

Oh, there's definitely a bond between christianity and paganism, but it isn't evolutionary. Christianity adopted pagan holidays into christian ones to absorb, assimilate and destroy paganism. Let's be more specific: Catholicism assimilated paganism. They've been assimilating religions and cultures since the end of the Roman Empire...which they assimilated. :p

ZOMG! Christians are the Zerg!!!!

Sunday of Triumph of Orthodoxy celebrates the end of the iconoclasm controversy in the 8th century. It did not "give birth to another branch". You don't seem to be familiar with the history of Christianity.

It is not in the Bible because as I said this holiday was invented in the 8th century, hundreds of years after the Bible was written and hundreds of years after the Roman Empire became Christian.



Nativity of Theotokos celebrates the birth of Virgin Mary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_the_Theotokos

The Exaltation of the Holy Cross is another interesting holiday celebrated by Anglican, Catholic, and Orthodox Christians. It celebrates two things: the supposed finding of the True Cross in the 4th century, and the recovery of the True Cross from the Persians in the 7th century (The Persians had captured Jerusalem and carried off the True Cross back to Susa) Whether the True Cross was the actual cross of the crucifixion can be debated, but the historical events celebrated by this holiday certainly were not derived from pre-existing pagan festivals, and instead marks actual historical events in the history of Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_of_the_Holy_Cross


I'm not sure off the top of my head but Wikipedia should have a detailed description of the Apocrypha. Also, different churches have different Apocryphas.

To explain to those who aren´t very familiar with some of the Greek terms Antebellum´s using, Theotokos means Lord-bearer, in Greek. Same as Panthokrator (and I´m think I´m a bit off in the spelling, am I Antebellum?) means Throned Christ (again, I have forgotten a lot of this stuff).

As for the Apocrypha, I´ll check it out later on. Thanks.

Sunday of Triumph of Orthodoxy celebrates the end of the iconoclasm controversy in the 8th century. It did not "give birth to another branch". You don't seem to be familiar with the history of Christianity.

It is not in the Bible because as I said this holiday was invented in the 8th century, hundreds of years after the Bible was written and hundreds of years after the Roman Empire became Christian.



Nativity of Theotokos celebrates the birth of Virgin Mary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_the_Theotokos

The Exaltation of the Holy Cross is another interesting holiday celebrated by Anglican, Catholic, and Orthodox Christians. It celebrates two things: the supposed finding of the True Cross in the 4th century, and the recovery of the True Cross from the Persians in the 7th century (The Persians had captured Jerusalem and carried off the True Cross back to Susa) Whether the True Cross was the actual cross of the crucifixion can be debated, but the historical events celebrated by this holiday certainly were not derived from pre-existing pagan festivals, and instead marks actual historical events in the history of Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_of_the_Holy_Cross


I'm not sure off the top of my head but Wikipedia should have a detailed description of the Apocrypha. Also, different churches have different Apocryphas.

Sorry, I am weak in some points in the bible, know the majority of stories, but have to do a lot of research. Read a lot of articles on it, however. When I challenged someone to find a holiday that was not copied, it is because I did not know where to start lol :D

ZOMG! Christians are the Zerg!!!!

lol, are u the cabbage patch girl I asked how you got it? i like you a lot. Love Star Craft

Typical, I assume you´re Protestant or the like, but do you know a Christian is anyone who believes in Christ? Catholics do too, believe it or not.

And up until the late 1500s early 1600s, every Christian on the face of the earth believe what the Catholic Church believed. Luther came later, darling.

Just because you don´t follow the precepts of the Pope and Peter´s Church doesn´t mean that historically, Christianity hasn´t assimilated other religions in order to survive and adapt because it has. Declaring pagan gods and goddesses was one of those survival and adaptation tactics. Same as taking pagan holidays for their calendar. Learn your stuff.

Umm... Never heard of the Eastern Orthodox Churches? Or the people that predated Luther that were also branded as heretics? What you're doing is taking a really really basic understanding of something remotely historical, and applying it to all things Christian.

And no, many people dissented from the Catholic Church, I'd have thought that you being from Europe, you'd have known that. The Catholic Church was nothing more than a Christian Political Party claiming to have the inside seat with Peter (from whom it doesn't really extend, I've never seen anything in Catholicism that suggests it really was based off of Peter) until after 300 A.D.

To make such sweeping claims that aren't accurate is not a good idea.

True, I knew that there were pagan origins and figured that the page would include them. http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html lol, bothered to read this one. You said I had not disproved your holidays, are these the ones you were referring?
It's a start, except that you didn't answer Advent, or Palm Sunday and I challenge the hell out of your source as there's no sources there and Last Trumpet Ministries is, well... a fringe of a fringe group IIRC.

Sorry, STILL haven't shown anything.

To explain to those who aren´t very familiar with some of the Greek terms Antebellum´s using, Theotokos means Lord-bearer, in Greek. Same as Panthokrator (and I´m think I´m a bit off in the spelling, am I Antebellum?) means Throned Christ (again, I have forgotten a lot of this stuff).

As for the Apocrypha, I´ll check it out later on. Thanks.

Well, the "true" spelling is in Greek so a Latin-alphabet spelling like Pantokrator or Pantocrator would suffice if it conveys the phonetics correctly.

Sorry, I am weak in some points in the bible, know the majority of stories, but have to do a lot of research. Read a lot of articles on it, however. When I challenged someone to find a holiday that was not copied, it is because I did not know where to start lol :D

That's alright, Christianity, just like any religion that's been around a long time, accumulates a lot of history, and wherever there's history there are commemorative holidays. Much of Christian history people may not be aware of. Beyond the easy-to-remember holidays like Easter or Christmas, there are other holidays celebrating very important events in the development of the religion.

As I said before, my personal favorite Christian holiday is the Sunday of the Triumph of Orthodoxy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_of_Orthodoxy

This holiday celebrates the fact that the Iconoclasts were defeated. The Iconoclasts of course were a Christian sect that were influenced by Islam and believed it is a sin to depict the human form in art. Just like these days, the Iconoclast controversy produced violence and bloodshed, and both sides in the controversy resorted to killings, executions, even wars, since many Byzantine Emperors were themselves hardcore Iconoclasts and therefore could send their armies against their people-painting enemies. But in the end the Iconoclasts were defeated by the mainstream Christians who believed that it was OK to depict human figures. I'm not Christian myself but I think the defeat of the Iconoclast movement had positive consequences in the course of civilization.

I think the hubbub´s in the intent of the OP to pit us all against each other on the subject of how unoriginal Christianity´s being for the past 2 millennia.

"Oh no, they have a holiday on the same day!" or "Oh no, they have similar thoughts as us, and also want to celebrate good things, they must only be copycats!"

Yep, Christianity is all unoriginality and stealing.

"Oh no, they have a holiday on the same day!" or "Oh no, they have similar thoughts as us, and also want to celebrate good things, they must only be copycats!"

Yep, Christianity is all unoriginality and stealing.

Silly Teuton, he hasn´t read through the thread.:rolleyes:

And yes, Christianity is all unoriginality and stealing. Holy days taken from pagan lore, deities turned into saints, borrowed stories from ancient religions, the church even immitates Roman political hierarchy. If that isn´t copycat, then I don´t know what is.

Since the beginning Christianity has always been about adapting the message of the gospel to a language the 'natives' will understand.

Even today it is the same. The Sunday service in Jamaica does not look like the service in Massachusetts, the Mass in Frankfurt does not look like the mass in Abuja, the choir in the Philippines does not sound like the choir in Rio de Janeiro... And yet they are all praying to the same God now, and they are all Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and they all share in the common Eucharist that makes them all of one, the body of Christ.

Adopting the language and customs of the natives does not hinder or change Christianity, it makes it more understandable to the people. Paul did it first, when he went to Greece...

Acts 17
So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for

"'In him we live and move and have our being';

as even some of your own poets have said,

"'For we are indeed his offspring.'

Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

And thus, Paul showed that taking the natives altar and religion and customs and re-expressing it back to the natives in the light of Jesus is how the Gospel should be spread to every corner of the Earth. A Greek to the Greeks, as Roman to the Romans, as God revealed himself to the gentile before the Gospel is brought to them, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him, God preordained the holidays and customs you think the Christians stole...

Since the beginning Christianity has always been about adapting the message of the gospel to a language the 'natives' will understand.

Even today it is the same. The Sunday service in Jamaica does not look like the service in Massachusetts, the Mass in Frankfurt does not look like the mass in Abuja, the choir in the Philippines does not sound like the choir in Rio de Janeiro... And yet they are all praying to the same God now, and they are all Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and they all share in the common Eucharist that makes them all of one, the body of Christ.

Adopting the language and customs of the natives does not hinder or change Christianity, it makes it more understandable to the people. Paul did it first, when he went to Greece...

Acts 17
So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To the unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for

"'In him we live and move and have our being';

as even some of your own poets have said,

"'For we are indeed his offspring.'

Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

And thus, Paul showed that taking the natives altar and religion and customs and re-expressing it back to the natives in the light of Jesus is how the Gospel should be spread to every corner of the Earth. A Greek to the Greeks, as Roman to the Romans, as God revealed himself to the gentile before the Gospel is brought to them, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him, God preordained the holidays and customs you think the Christians stole...

The Demiurge may have preordained the holidays of his religion, but not the ones of the religions that came before.

But now you´re here, and you´re one of those Christians with whom to debate about a topic ling this becomes ¨I´m Christian, you´re not, therefore I´m right and you´re wrong¨ sorta issue.

So, guys, I´ll retire for now and, provided Balderdash leaves the argument, I may come back. If this sounds mean of me, tell the mods. I´m past caring.;)

It's a start, except that you didn't answer Advent, or Palm Sunday and I challenge the hell out of your source as there's no sources there and Last Trumpet Ministries is, well... a fringe of a fringe group IIRC.

Sorry, STILL haven't shown anything.

answer to palm sunday is on page 2 i think, will answer advent soon

"Pagan Origins of Advent
In Rome, Christmas was used to cover up the ancient festivities of Saturnalia, a celebration of the Winter Solstice and homage to the god Saturnus (a deity related to sowing and agriculture).
In ancient Rome, it was a time of merry-making, feasting, gift-giving, costumes and general licentiousness. Thus, the Roman Catholic festival of ‘Christmas’ maintained this festival character.
In the 5th Century, Advent began on 11 November (St. Martin's Day) and took the form of a six week fast leading to Christmas. During the 6th century, Advent was reduced to its current length and later the fasting was dropped. "
-http://ars.userfriendly.org/users/read.cgi?id=19377&tid=122334

busy doing my homework for this thread and now we have Nordic, Skandian, Egyptian, and Sumerian in with the Paganism. Liked paganism most out of all of those. Vikings had pretty cool gods though.

Actually, the Vikings were what we now call 'heathen' and not 'pagan'. For an interesting discussion on the difference please see: http://heathenblog.wordpress.com/2007/01/09/heathen-pagan-the-difference/.

Really, I think that Christianity is an evolved paganism. When the Christians moved in, almost every single one of their holidays is a pagan ceremony. Valentine's Day: a monk marries people despite the evil ruler NO. Lupercalia Festival for Aphrodite (this is during time of Caesar, before was devoted to a wolf-god.) Christmas: birth of christ NO. Pagan festival celebrating rebirth of the sun. I dare any christian to find an aspect of their religion that is not borrowed from another religion.

I would like to say that I do like Christianity. I support it, if not believe in it. The people who do not become fanatics often end up doing good in the world for their god, even if it does close their minds.

Please do not insult any religion without evidence. I do not want this thread to be closed down for ppl mindlessly insulting Christians.

You are grossly generalizing, you talk about evidence but generalizing will earn you a big fat F in an academic setting, especially if the teacher grades like I do. Despite that, I give you credit for not wanting this to turn into an anti-Christian hate fest.

Yes, the Church borrows many things from pagans, considering early Christians lived in a predominately pagan world, it really makes sense. All the things above are more tradition established by the Roman Catholic Church rather than doctrine set down by the Bible (considering that the Bible mostly gives off the connotation that Christ was born in the summer, shepherds wouldn't be outside tending to their flocks at night in the middle of the winter). Considering the Roman Catholic Church was founded in ROME, it makes sense that some of the pagan traditions would rub off on it... It's not unheard of.

Where Christianity really sets itself apart from other religions is its basic theology. Most religions are about how we humans can appease a certain deity or deities. Christianity, in its truest form, is not what we do to appease God, rather, its what God does for us. Most religions agree that mankind is full of sin, but most say that we have to do something to receive redemption. True Christianity states that we can do nothing by ourselves to appease God's justice so God took on human flesh to pay the price for our sins so we can receive salvation. Any Church that will tell you otherwise I'll go out on a limb and tell you that they're totally in error. As a graduate student, that's not something I say very often.

answer to palm sunday is on page 2 i think,
There is no page two, and the source still sucks, badly.

will answer advent soon

"Pagan Origins of Advent
In Rome, Christmas was used to cover up the ancient festivities of Saturnalia, a celebration of the Winter Solstice and homage to the god Saturnus (a deity related to sowing and agriculture).
In ancient Rome, it was a time of merry-making, feasting, gift-giving, costumes and general licentiousness. Thus, the Roman Catholic festival of ‘Christmas’ maintained this festival character.
In the 5th Century, Advent began on 11 November (St. Martin's Day) and took the form of a six week fast leading to Christmas. During the 6th century, Advent was reduced to its current length and later the fasting was dropped. "
-http://ars.userfriendly.org/users/read.cgi?id=19377&tid=122334
Talks about Christmas, not Advent. Reading isn't a strong point for you, is it?

And why on earth did you post a comment entry from User Friendly? If you're attempting to prove your point, you are failing, badly. Very badly. Embarrassingly badly.

And up until the late 1500s early 1600s, every Christian on the face of the earth believe what the Catholic Church believed. Luther came later, darling.

Well until about 1492, most people believed that the world was flat, but did that make it right?

Aside from that, you really need a lesson in Church history bud. Luther began the reformation with the nailing of the 95 Theses to the church door on October 31st, 1517. I wouldn't call that late 1500's... While most people stayed Catholic during Luther's lifetime, not everyone did... That in and of itself invalidates your argument. Take it from a Lutheran in grad school for history. Between confirmation and my undergraduate studies in history and theology at a Lutheran college, I think I have a pretty good background in studying Martin Luther.

Not to mention you neglect to bring up the Great Schism in circa 1054... Long time before the late 1500's and 1600's bud.

Regardless, a quick history lesson totally neutered your argument like it was a household pet... I suggest you read for yourself and you don't just take your priest's word for it.

ZOMG! Christians are the Zerg!!!!

or the borg possibly lol. "Prepare to be assimilated"

btw. for people mentioning "original Christian holidays" these should be holidays that were created around the time that Christianity was no? Because were looking here at the fact that Christianity was created as basically a number of other religions pieced together under a different name. The fact that Christianity is now a separate entity is kind of a given.

Really, I think that Christianity is an evolved paganism.

Don't you mean a devolved paganism. The devolution of all aspects of society will be the end of "civilization" within a very few years (2012?) or ... well is there really any or.:eek::eek:

You are grossly generalizing, you talk about evidence but generalizing will earn you a big fat F in an academic setting, especially if the teacher grades like I do. Despite that, I give you credit for not wanting this to turn into an anti-Christian hate fest.

Yes, the Church borrows many things from pagans, considering early Christians lived in a predominately pagan world, it really makes sense. All the things above are more tradition established by the Roman Catholic Church rather than doctrine set down by the Bible (considering that the Bible mostly gives off the connotation that Christ was born in the summer, shepherds wouldn't be outside tending to their flocks at night in the middle of the winter). Considering the Roman Catholic Church was founded in ROME, it makes sense that some of the pagan traditions would rub off on it... It's not unheard of.

Where Christianity really sets itself apart from other religions is its basic theology. Most religions are about how we humans can appease a certain deity or deities. Christianity, in its truest form, is not what we do to appease God, rather, its what God does for us. Most religions agree that mankind is full of sin, but most say that we have to do something to receive redemption. True Christianity states that we can do nothing by ourselves to appease God's justice so God took on human flesh to pay the price for our sins so we can receive salvation. Any Church that will tell you otherwise I'll go out on a limb and tell you that they're totally in error. As a graduate student, that's not something I say very often.
Paragraph One:
ok . . . . .so you bashed him but didn't actually say anything of value there.

Paragraph 2:Some of the Religions from which Christianity borrows include the Egyptians and the Sumerians. How would being in Rome make that the case unless Christianity was a compromise to include the other areas near Rome in order to solidify and expand Rome's influence. Were talking about shepherds in the middle east here right? So even in winter you'd probably have shepherds out tending their flocks (and correct me if I'm wrong).

Paragraph 3:
I'm sorry but frankly thats bull. First off Christianity is NOT all about what god can do for you, its about you doing certain thing for god (such as . . . .well killing Islamics in the early versions(Read crusades) but now more about behaving in certain ways and following god edicts) so that you get rewarded later on(read Heaven). Second What is Christianity in its truest form? Because I'm betting the way you see Christianity is probably unique to you (as it is for everyone of every religion). You do do something for redemption! You go to confession, You say Hail Marys you do whatever your sect does but its Still For Redemption.

Really, I think that Christianity is an evolved paganism. When the Christians moved in, almost every single one of their holidays is a pagan ceremony. Valentine's Day: a monk marries people despite the evil ruler NO. Lupercalia Festival for Aphrodite (this is during time of Caesar, before was devoted to a wolf-god.) Christmas: birth of christ NO. Pagan festival celebrating rebirth of the sun. I dare any christian to find an aspect of their religion that is not borrowed from another religion.

I would like to say that I do like Christianity. I support it, if not believe in it. The people who do not become fanatics often end up doing good in the world for their god, even if it does close their minds.

Please do not insult any religion without evidence. I do not want this thread to be closed down for ppl mindlessly insulting Christians.

I'm sorry, but I have a completely different view to majority in this thread.

I don't think Christianity 'borrowed' holidays from the already well established pagans and it certainly wasn't to convert people and invade the pagan religion.
It was the opposite. Paganism borrowed from Christianity, in order to destroy it. And it worked very very well.....and I can hear mad typing of keyboards ready to tell me what a dick I am.
Christianity is based on Judaism. Same God. Different Messiah. But not different holidays, and not a different calender. Christians celebrate passover (which by the way was when christ was actually cruxified...which is different from Easter), they used to worship on the sabbath day in the temple with Jews, they celebrate pentecost (christians celebrate the coming of the Holy Spirit...but it was originally a Jewish festival). They still obeyed Jewish law, however they now believed in a different kind of relationship with God.
Christianity was the fastest growing religion that the roman world had ever seen. They were affluent and growing in numbers.
They were growing in numbers before paganism merged with it. There was no logical reason for christianity to merge its ideas with paganism for conversions....it was doing pretty bloody well all by itself. In spite of the fact that they were persecuted so severely. Fed to lions, used as spearing practice, burned alive etc etc.
But the growing numbers were very threatening to the stability of the empire. And constantine sought a way to control it. He was not a christian during majority of his life. There is no proof of his conversion, but some claim that when he became ill he converted on his deathbed. But he was smart and diplomatic. The easiest way to kill of christianity was to change it from the inside. So he convinced the christians that he was a believer. He had his army's baptised. Then, he changed the calender from hebrew to roman. And he formed the basis of what became the catholic church. Which follows the pagan heirarchy, incorporated saints, made the pope infalliable etc etc.
So what we have today, is a very mixed up christianity and a lot of it isn't actually christianity. E.g. Like the rule you can't eat meat on friday, which was actually the pope's sneaky way of promoting the failing fish market. Or easter, which is not when Christ actually died, but the celebration of the fertility god, or worshipping on sunday, which is actually the celebration of the sun god (hence sun-day).
Maybe it doesn't really matter...but I would say it did. Because christianity lost its power. And by that I mean its connection to God...sometimes I look at what some christians believe...and i'm at a loss for words. Like going to church on sunday will get you into heaven. Or being a good person will get you to heaven. Or saying hail mary 3 times is enough to pardon a sin, like you can earn forgiveness. Or telling someone that God hates Homos..I wonder if we actually believe in the same God...
Its a watered down version of the truth. And thats why most people now have no time for it.

I'm sorry, but I have a completely different view to majority in this thread.

I don't think Christianity 'borrowed' holidays from the already well established pagans and it certainly wasn't to convert people and invade the pagan religion.
It was the opposite. Paganism borrowed from Christianity, in order to destroy it. And it worked very very well.....and I can hear mad typing of keyboards ready to tell me what a dick I am.
Christianity is based on Judaism. Same God. Different Messiah. But not different holidays, and not a different calender. Christians celebrate passover (which by the way was when christ was actually cruxified...which is different from Easter), they used to worship on the sabbath day in the temple with Jews, they celebrate pentecost (christians celebrate the coming of the Holy Spirit...but it was originally a Jewish festival). They still obeyed Jewish law, however they now believed in a different kind of relationship with God.
Christianity was the fastest growing religion that the roman world had ever seen. They were affluent and growing in numbers.
They were growing in numbers before paganism merged with it. There was no logical reason for christianity to merge its ideas with paganism for conversions....it was doing pretty bloody well all by itself. In spite of the fact that they were persecuted so severely. Fed to lions, used as spearing practice, burned alive etc etc.
But the growing numbers were very threatening to the stability of the empire. And constantine sought a way to control it. He was not a christian during majority of his life. There is no proof of his conversion, but some claim that when he became ill he converted on his deathbed. But he was smart and diplomatic. The easiest way to kill of christianity was to change it from the inside. So he convinced the christians that he was a believer. He had his army's baptised. Then, he changed the calender from hebrew to roman. And he formed the basis of what became the catholic church. Which follows the pagan heirarchy, incorporated saints, made the pope infalliable etc etc.
So what we have today, is a very mixed up christianity and a lot of it isn't actually christianity. E.g. Like the rule you can't eat meat on friday, which was actually the pope's sneaky way of promoting the failing fish market. Or easter, which is not when Christ actually died, but the celebration of the fertility god, or worshipping on sunday, which is actually the celebration of the sun god (hence sun-day).
Maybe it doesn't really matter...but I would say it did. Because christianity lost its power. And by that I mean its connection to God...sometimes I look at what some christians believe...and i'm at a loss for words. Like going to church on sunday will get you into heaven. Or being a good person will get you to heaven. Or saying hail mary 3 times is enough to pardon a sin, like you can earn forgiveness. Or telling someone that God hates Homos..I wonder if we actually believe in the same God...
Its a watered down version of the truth. And thats why most people now have no time for it.

The how do you account for Christian holidays that are mentioned earlier in history as purely pagan ones?
Christmas, All Saint's Day, Easter (and no, it's not the Jewish Passover.. if you look closely, you'll notice that they are on two different days, although both are calculated by the lunar calendar), Michaelmas, etc?

The how do you account for Christian holidays that are mentioned earlier in history as purely pagan ones?
Christmas, All Saint's Day, Easter (and no, it's not the Jewish Passover.. if you look closely, you'll notice that they are on two different days, although both are calculated by the lunar calendar), Michaelmas, etc?

I didn't say that Passover and Easter were the same. I said that Passover was when Christ actually died.

Were christian holidays celebrated in conjunction with pagan holidays pre-constantine? They ran on the Jewish calender. Christians were essentially still Jews.
But they were much easier to control if they merged the holidays together. Christianity was actually weakened. And it is very significant to switch a religious holiday. Like you said passover and easter are on different days. Its devastating to a culture/religion, to have your holy day stolen.
Pre-constantine, christianity was governed by the apostles. Afterwards, Constantine, being the most powerful man in the world, took up position as head priest. Combining both religions, so that any new converts where now christian/pagans....which would be controlled (Constantine was not a christian, nor was he especially concerned with keeping paganism pure. He wanted power). With the hope that the 'true' christians, would die out. And they essentially did. Christianity was devastated...and is still recovering from what happened.
Did that explain it any better?

I didn't say that Passover and Easter were the same. I said that Passover was when Christ actually died.

Were christian holidays celebrated in conjunction with pagan holidays pre-constantine? They ran on the Jewish calender. Christians were essentially still Jews.
But they were much easier to control if they merged the holidays together. Christianity was actually weakened. And it is very significant to switch a religious holiday. Like you said passover and easter are on different days. Its devastating to a culture/religion, to have your holy day stolen.
Pre-constantine, christianity was governed by the apostles. Afterwards, Constantine, being the most powerful man in the world, took up position as head priest. Combining both religions, so that any new converts where now christian/pagans....which would be controlled (Constantine was not a christian, nor was he especially concerned with keeping paganism pure. He wanted power). With the hope that the 'true' christians, would die out. And they essentially did. Christianity was devastated...and is still recovering from what happened.
Did that explain it any better?

Not really... Easter today is celebrated in accordance with the festival of Eostre, not with Passover. True, the bible said he died at passover, however the church apparently found it beneficial to celebrate that on a pagan holiday instead.

Most of today's "Christian" holidays are Norther European in origin. By the time of Constantine, I don't believe Christianity had reached those areas yet, so the question is m00t, really.

Most of today's "Christian" holidays are Norther European in origin. By the time of Constantine, I don't believe Christianity had reached those areas yet, so the question is m00t, really.
Most? Cabra, you are as bad as the OP.

Most? Cabra, you are as bad as the OP.

Well, which ones aren't, then?
I admit I don't know all of them, but the ones I looked up seem to be mostly Celtic and Skandinavian, originally. With the exception of christmas, which has it's origin in Persia, that is.

Not really... Easter today is celebrated in accordance with the festival of Eostre, not with Passover. True, the bible said he died at passover, however the church apparently found it beneficial to celebrate that on a pagan holiday instead.

Most of today's "Christian" holidays are Norther European in origin. By the time of Constantine, I don't believe Christianity had reached those areas yet, so the question is m00t, really.

There was nothing beneficial for Christians to have their holy days stolen. I have said this before. They weren't changed for conversions, they were the fastest growing religion...even though they were persecuted. The festivals were converted to the pagan calender, because it made christianity much easier to control. New converts were then controlled in this amended christianity.
As for what happened after constantine, thats a different matter completely.
Pre-constantine, the christians and the pagans had very seperate religions.

Really, I think that Christianity is an evolved paganism. When the Christians moved in, almost every single one of their holidays is a pagan ceremony. Valentine's Day: a monk marries people despite the evil ruler NO. Lupercalia Festival for Aphrodite (this is during time of Caesar, before was devoted to a wolf-god.) Christmas: birth of christ NO. Pagan festival celebrating rebirth of the sun. I dare any christian to find an aspect of their religion that is not borrowed from another religion.

I would like to say that I do like Christianity. I support it, if not believe in it. The people who do not become fanatics often end up doing good in the world for their god, even if it does close their minds.

Please do not insult any religion without evidence. I do not want this thread to be closed down for ppl mindlessly insulting Christians.

I think you are an idiot to be quite honest. The only thing shared is the timing not the actual holiday. The early european christians timed the holidays with their olh holidays because they didn't always know when things happened.

True fact:

The Pope officially baptized coffee, seen as an Islamic drink, in order to make it acceptable for Christian consumption.

How does someone baptise coffee? Do you mean blessed the coffee?

Well, which ones aren't, then?
I admit I don't know all of them, but the ones I looked up seem to be mostly Celtic and Skandinavian, originally. With the exception of christmas, which has it's origin in Persia, that is.
Ok, one we need to agree on the idea of origins. Did Christianity assign some of its holy days to previous days, yes, it did. We have documented proof of this, and in doing so (Because as noted, tradition cannot be changed, just added to) a number of Pagan rituals and symbols also entered into the new Christian feasts; however, that does not make the said feast wholly Pagan in origin.

Easter may have indeed been the festival for Eostre (Maybe, there is apparently a rather large debate about this), but since her festival does not concern her death and resurrection, it would be hard to claim that makes Easter a Pagan festival originally any more then someone can claim since Japan celebrates its most important holiday on January 1 (Having moved the date when it adopted the Gregorian Calendar) that Oshougatsu therefore is Roman in origin.

Christmas traditions have the same issue, the trees, holly, Yule logs, etc. come from other Winter Solstice festivals, but I've yet to hear of any of them including the virgin birth, the stable, the star, 3 wise men, and the rest of that kit and kaboddle.

Two, which holidays are we looking at in any case? Honestly speaking, just about every day is some sort of saint's day or other holiday to one church or another, do you honestly propose to say that Christianity stole them all?

Finally, Advent, Ash Wednesday, Lent, Good Friday, and Palm Sunday. Those were the ones I previously mentioned that the OP has done some rather bad attempts to find Pagan origins for and instead quoted me pages from the comment section of User Friendly.

How does someone baptise coffee? Do you mean blessed the coffee?

Submerge the beans in some boiling holy water with a dash of cream.

Submerge the beans in some boiling holy water with a dash of cream.

LOL classic. Going to baptise me some coffee right now then..

man that sounds good!!!

Ok, one we need to agree on the idea of origins. Did Christianity assign some of its holy days to previous days, yes, it did. We have documented proof of this, and in doing so (Because as noted, tradition cannot be changed, just added to) a number of Pagan rituals and symbols also entered into the new Christian feasts; however, that does not make the said feast wholly Pagan in origin.

Easter may have indeed been the festival for Eostre (Maybe, there is apparently a rather large debate about this), but since her festival does not concern her death and resurrection, it would be hard to claim that makes Easter a Pagan festival originally any more then someone can claim since Japan celebrates its most important holiday on January 1 (Having moved the date when it adopted the Gregorian Calendar) that Oshougatsu therefore is Roman in origin.

I'll have to look this one up, but I remember Eostre being killed in autumn and resurrected in spring. It was a rather common theme in many pagan religions.


Christmas traditions have the same issue, the trees, holly, Yule logs, etc. come from other Winter Solstice festivals, but I've yet to hear of any of them including the virgin birth, the stable, the star, 3 wise men, and the rest of that kit and kaboddle.

Mithras was said to have been sent by a father-god to vanquish darkness and evil in the world. Born of a virgin (a birth witnessed only by shepherds), Mithras was described variously as the Way, the Truth, the Light, the Word, the Son of God, and the Good Shepherd and was often depicted carrying a lamb upon his shoulders. Followers of Mithras celebrated December 25th (the winter solstice) by ringing bells, singing hymns, lighting candles, giving gifts, and administering a sacrament of bread and water.

And it looks as if he wasn't the only one, either ... Linky (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/virgin_birth.html)

Ok, one we need to agree on the idea of origins. Did Christianity assign some of its holy days to previous days, yes, it did. We have documented proof of this, and in doing so (Because as noted, tradition cannot be changed, just added to) a number of Pagan rituals and symbols also entered into the new Christian feasts; however, that does not make the said feast wholly Pagan in origin.

Easter may have indeed been the festival for Eostre (Maybe, there is apparently a rather large debate about this), but since her festival does not concern her death and resurrection, it would be hard to claim that makes Easter a Pagan festival originally any more then someone can claim since Japan celebrates its most important holiday on January 1 (Having moved the date when it adopted the Gregorian Calendar) that Oshougatsu therefore is Roman in origin.

Christmas traditions have the same issue, the trees, holly, Yule logs, etc. come from other Winter Solstice festivals, but I've yet to hear of any of them including the virgin birth, the stable, the star, 3 wise men, and the rest of that kit and kaboddle.

Two, which holidays are we looking at in any case? Honestly speaking, just about every day is some sort of saint's day or other holiday to one church or another, do you honestly propose to say that Christianity stole them all?

Finally, Advent, Ash Wednesday, Lent, Good Friday, and Palm Sunday. Those were the ones I previously mentioned that the OP has done some rather bad attempts to find Pagan origins for and instead quoted me pages from the comment section of User Friendly.

So, you're argument that christianity didn't 'steal' pagan holidays is that they had their own traditions that they put over top? Are you really that much of an idiot?
Yes, there are plenty of christian holidays that do not have obvious pagan origins (I say obvious because they all very well might have them, they're just not readily apparent), however easter and christmas are certainly of 'pagan' origin.

...snip... Christianity is based on Judaism. Same God. Different Messiah. But not different holidays, and not a different calender. Christians celebrate passover (which by the way was when christ was actually cruxified...which is different from Easter), they used to worship on the sabbath day in the temple with Jews, they celebrate pentecost (christians celebrate the coming of the Holy Spirit...but it was originally a Jewish festival). They still obeyed Jewish law, however they now believed in a different kind of relationship with God

...snip...

So what we have today, is a very mixed up christianity and a lot of it isn't actually christianity. E.g. Like the rule you can't eat meat on friday, which was actually the pope's sneaky way of promoting the failing fish market. Or easter, which is not when Christ actually died, but the celebration of the fertility god, or worshipping on sunday, which is actually the celebration of the sun god (hence sun-day).
Maybe it doesn't really matter...but I would say it did. Because christianity lost its power. And by that I mean its connection to God...sometimes I look at what some christians believe...and i'm at a loss for words. Like going to church on sunday will get you into heaven. Or being a good person will get you to heaven. Or saying hail mary 3 times is enough to pardon a sin, like you can earn forgiveness. Or telling someone that God hates Homos..I wonder if we actually believe in the same God...
Its a watered down version of the truth. And thats why most people now have no time for it.

I have no hidden agenda or ulterior motive for asking this, I honestly don't know what you are going to say, but I can't seem to 'place' your theology source and the question peaked my interest...

At first I thought your theology appeared to be Seventh Day Adventist, or maybe Jehovah Witness, but then you kept talking about other stuff and you eliminated yourself from those groups. It shouldn't be Mormon, as they have services on Sunday, but maybe it could be an offshoot I suppose, but I think you would be outcast there too? You probably aren't a regular non-denomination protestant mega-church type either, or else you would have known that they celebrate both Saturday nights and Sundays and you likely wouldn't have dismissed those of your own church that attend the other service out of hand... even the Catholics have offered Saturday Mass for about 40 years now (following instructions of Vatican II).

So honestly, what theology are you basing your 'Christianity' on? And where are you getting your perspective of the historical chruch from?

I have no hidden agenda or ulterior motive for asking this, I honestly don't know what you are going to say, but I can't seem to 'place' your theology source and the question peaked my interest...

At first I thought your theology appeared to be Seventh Day Adventist, or maybe Jehovah Witness, but then you kept talking about other stuff and you eliminated yourself from those groups. It shouldn't be Mormon, as they have services on Sunday, but maybe it could be an offshoot I suppose, but I think you would be outcast there too? You probably aren't a regular non-denomination protestant mega-church type either, or else you would have known that they celebrate both Saturday nights and Sundays and you likely wouldn't have dismissed those of your own church that attend the other service out of hand... even the Catholics have offered Saturday Mass for about 40 years now (following instructions of Vatican II).

So honestly, what theology are you basing your 'Christianity' on? And where are you getting your perspective of the historical chruch from?

I'm a pentecostal christian. And I guess you could say I attend a mega church, by Aussie standards anyway.
I didn't think I was dismissing anyone from any demonination based on which worship service they attend? I was just making a note of it.
The historical church perspective, is also pentecostal.

So, you're argument that christianity didn't 'steal' pagan holidays is that they had their own traditions that they put over top? Are you really that much of an idiot?
Yes, there are plenty of christian holidays that do not have obvious pagan origins (I say obvious because they all very well might have them, they're just not readily apparent), however easter and christmas are certainly of 'pagan' origin.

Wow, are you incapable of posting without insulting those that disagree with you? You didn't used to do that, but now you do it all the time. Calling him an idiot when clearly he is not looks like pure flame to me.

As to Christmas being celebrated on a European pagan holiday, you did notice that the entire planet works on seasons and solstices right? Special moments of the annual cycle of the year celebrated by nearly every culture since neolithic times. For you to pretend that Christians 'stole' that period for holding a holiday from the pagan European is simply naive racism or anti-Christian bias on your part. Did the Chinese and the South Americans steal theirs from the European too?

As to Easter, it falls on different days and is based on the lunar Hebrew Calender and Constantine through the council decided to give the job of announcing each years chosen Sunday for Easter to the Bishop of Alexandria so that Christians would celebrate on the same day and not scatterbrained like it had been before with everyone doing their own calculations for figuring out when it should be celebrated.

Bishop of Alexandria the privilege of announcing annually the date of Christian Passover to the Roman curia. Although the synod undertook the regulation of the dating of Christian Passover, it contented itself with communicating its decision to the different dioceses, instead of establishing a canon. Its exact words were not preserved, but from scattered notices the council ruled:

that Easter must be celebrated by all throughout the world on the same Sunday;
that this Sunday must follow the fourteenth day of the paschal moon;
that the moon was to be accounted the paschal moon whose fourteenth day followed the vernal equinox;
that some provision should be made, probably by the Church of Alexandria as best skilled in astronomical calculations, for determining the proper date of Easter and communicating it to the rest of the world.

Wiki Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter)

snip And up until the late 1500s early 1600s, every Christian on the face of the earth believe what the Catholic Church believed. Luther came later, darling. snip

Except the orthodox church, which split a thousand years before that. And the oriental church (Armenia and the Middle East, pretty much). And don't forget the Coptic Church. You're thinking of Western Europe.

I'm a pentecostal christian. And I guess you could say I attend a mega church, by Aussie standards anyway.
I didn't think I was dismissing anyone from any demonination based on which worship service they attend? I was just making a note of it.
The historical church perspective, is also pentecostal.

I think I read too much into your, "like going to Church on Sunday" and took it to mean you thought God only respected Saturday service. My bad.

Nice to meet you, thanks for responding. :)

Have a link to your church? I like reading stuff like that, mission statements and 'what we believe' papers.

Wow, are you incapable of posting without insulting those that disagree with you? You didn't used to do that, but now you do it all the time.
Once is all the time now?

Calling him an idiot when clearly he is not looks like pure flame to me.

He acknowledges the information showing evidence that christmas (for example) has pagan origins and then responds with: "but those didn't have the three wise men so christmas doesn't have pagan origins."

I would call that idiocy of the first order.

I think I read too much into your, "like going to Church on Sunday" and took it to mean you thought God only respected Saturday service. My bad.

Nice to meet you, thanks for responding. :)

Have a link to your church? I like reading stuff like that, mission statements and 'what we believe' papers.

Nice to meet you too. :) I think this is the link. I've never added one before. If it doesn't work, google Christian City Church http://www.ccc.org.au I went to their bible college last year.
I used to go to Hillsong, thats actually the church I decided to become a christian in. I'm not from a christian family. So when it came to church history, I had to ask a lot of people, and read a lot.

or the borg possibly lol. "Prepare to be assimilated"

btw. for people mentioning "original Christian holidays" these should be holidays that were created around the time that Christianity was no? Because were looking here at the fact that Christianity was created as basically a number of other religions pieced together under a different name. The fact that Christianity is now a separate entity is kind of a given.

Yeah...I've never watched Star Trek.

I dare any christian to find an aspect of their religion that is not borrowed from another religion.

1.The Trinity
2.Universality (in the meaning of "being directed towards all people independently of ethnicity, nationality, social position")

No way to save yourself because absolutely nothing you can do is good enough. In every other religion, what you do is what your "salvation" hinges on.

So, you're argument that christianity didn't 'steal' pagan holidays is that they had their own traditions that they put over top? Are you really that much of an idiot?
Wow, you missed the point completely and so you call me an idiot. That's really sad, Dyakovo.

Why don't you go and re-read what I wrote there and maybe you'll see that I DIDN'T say that Christianity didn't steal holidays, but that it is hard to claim that a holiday is wholly of Pagan origin because, yes, things were changed quite a bit in the holidays.

If you give me a car and I change out everything on that car except for the hub caps and part of the frame, is it still YOUR car?

Yes, there are plenty of christian holidays that do not have obvious pagan origins (I say obvious because they all very well might have them, they're just not readily apparent), however easter and christmas are certainly of 'pagan' origin.
Lord, spare me from those who do not read. :rolleyes:

Only Protestants believe the Bible is the sole legitimate authority of what Christianity is about. Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox also believe the Bible is accompanied by the so called "Holy Tradition", a collection of writings and practices (which do indeed incorporate many pagan beliefs and rituals)Well, unlike in Protestantism divine inspiration has not stopped with the writing of the NT for Catholics. Hence decisions reached through prayer and meditation by a group of Catholics (e.g. electing a pope or determining saints) are considered as divinely given as scripture.

Way to generalize over one third of the world's population. As someone mentioned earlier. If you would give the above in as a university thesis you'd get a pretty big F. To not sound like a generalizing one should take each denomination into separate account. Since each denomination respects different holidays. Here is a shortlist (I can't be assed to list all 38,000 Christian denominations):


Roman Catholic Church
Armenian Catholic Church
Belarusian Catholic Church
Bulgarian Catholic Church
Chaldean Catholic Church
Coptic Catholic Church
Croatian Greek Catholic Church
Ethiopian Catholic Church
Georgian Catholic Church
Greek Catholic Church
Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
Macedonian Catholic Church
Maronite Catholic Church
Melkite Catholic Church
Romanian Catholic Church
Russian Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Slovak Greek Catholic Church
Syrian Catholic Church
Syro-Malabar Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Febronianism
Gallicanism
African Orthodox Church
Anglican Catholic Church
Anglican Church in America
Anglican Mission in America
Anglican Orthodox Church
Anglican Province of America
Anglican Province of Christ the King
Charismatic Episcopal Church
Christian Episcopal Church
Church of England
Church of England in South Africa
Communion of Evangelical Episcopal Churches
Episcopal Missionary Church
Free Protestant Episcopal Church
Southern Episcopal Church
Greek Old Calendarists
Montenegrin Orthodox Church
Macedonian Orthodox Church
Russian Old Believers
Ukrainian Orthodox Church:
Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
Hussites
Moravian Church
Taborites
Unity of the Brethren
Utraquists
Waldensians
Waldensian-Methodist Union of Italy
Waldensian Church of the Rio de la Plata
Presbyterianism

etc...37,000+ more.



Some of the above do not celebrate lent. Others do. All celebrate Christmas. Some do in December, some as late as early March. Some have certain Saints, the other lack said Saints or lack Saints all together.

So please when you speak of Christianity. Which denomination do you mean? Since speaking generatively of a group that encompasses of over 2 billion people in 38,000 distinct groupings of faith. You'll have to be a bit more precise. Are you narrowing it down to purely Catholicism (excluding or including the Eastern Rites? Or the Copts?) or are you keeping it to Lutheranism? Or simply are you a bored West European/American kid who thinks Christianity simply means "oh those mainstream ones near me that are like claiming to be like christian and stuff lol?"

To cut it down. What you're doing is the equivalent of lumping Agnostics and Atheists into one bucket, simply by saying. They both don't necessarily believe in a God, so they're both the same and have the same roots. Which to put it straight. Is a very simplistic view of it and doesn't fit the realities of this world.

1.The Trinity
2.Universality (in the meaning of "being directed towards all people independently of ethnicity, nationality, social position")Trinity? In ancient Egyptian religion numerous gods were manifestations of other gods. The concept of one god being having many (personified) aspects, manifestations, avatars is not originally Christian.

Universality? wtf? all ancient religions are directed towards all people, except ethnocentric judaism, of course.

I'll have to look this one up, but I remember Eostre being killed in autumn and resurrected in spring. It was a rather common theme in many pagan religions.
Common, maybe, but can you prove a connection?

Observe: In the Greek myth of Orpheus, one of the most famous stories is the death of his beloved Eurydice. Saddened, he managed to descend into Hades and soften the hearts of both Hades and Persephone. They allowed him to leave with Eurydice, provided that he walked in front of her and not look until they make it back to the upper world. Of course he looked and Eurydice disappeared forever.

Now hear the Japanese Shinto myth of Izanagi-no-mikoto (The Male who Invites) and Izanami-no-mikoto (The Woman who Invites). After a busy period of creating the world, figuring out how sex works, and giving birth to an island; Izanagi and Izanami get down to serious business and give birth to a whole range of gods for Japan. Sadly, the last god to be born, the fire god, Kagu-Tsuchi, burned her up coming out and she died.

Izanagi then descended into Yomi (The Shadowy Land of the Dead) to find his beloved Izanami. However, when he found her, she had already eaten the food of the dead and could not return. Begging her to do so, she agreed on the condition that he didn't look at her while she made ready to journey back to the surface. He looked of course.

So... did the Greeks go visit the Japanese, or did the Japanese visit the Greeks? And who told the Mayans who have a similar myth?

And it looks as if he wasn't the only one, either ... Linky (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/virgin_birth.html)
Interesting, except you missed this part: Before that time, Christianity and Mithraism coexisted and were undoubtedly influential upon each other.
Which came first then, I wonder.

<snip>

In reference to one of your last quotes:

I read somewhere while in college, if I find the source, I´ll link you all to it, that Mithraism and Judaism coexisted very well in Babylonian times. Actually, it wasn´t unheard of Hebrew families worshiping both Yaweh and Mithras.

*runs off to search for her source*

Once is all the time now?



He acknowledges the information showing evidence that christmas (for example) has pagan origins and then responds with: "but those didn't have the three wise men so christmas doesn't have pagan origins."

I would call that idiocy of the first order.
Except that I didn't say that at all. Jumping to conclusions that you want based on something that isn't there... now THAT'S idiocy!

In reference to one of your last quotes:

I read somewhere while in college, if I find the source, I´ll link you all to it, that Mithraism and Judaism coexisted very well in Babylonian times. Actually, it wasn´t unheard of Hebrew families worshiping both Yaweh and Mithras.

*runs off to search for her source*
I'd be interested as the current source provided by Cabra says that both Christianity and Mithraism began around the same time (Hmm, you might remember the orginal Persian god whose name was borrowed to the one that was being talked about).

I'd be interested as the current source provided by Cabra says that both Christianity and Mithraism began around the same time (Hmm, you might remember the orginal Persian god whose name was borrowed to the one that was being talked about).

Hm... it may be that. But I thought Mithraism had been the same from the time of the Babylonians (I did forget that other theology you mentioned). Then again, I could be mistaken, after all, I read about those Sumerian based religions close to 8 years ago. Still, I´ll check and get back to you.

EDIT:
Check this link (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/Topics/Religion/Mithraism/David_Fingrut**.html#per).
What stroke me as very interesting is that the author refers to Mithras as a ¨Pagan Christ¨.

Blind faith, mate, blind faith is what´s for Christian dinner.

Correct me if I am wrong, but faith is blind by definition.

Correct me if I am wrong, but faith is blind by definition.

Faith doesn´t necessarily have to be blind. You can believe and not lose your head.

...
EDIT:
Check this link (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/Topics/Religion/Mithraism/David_Fingrut**.html#per).
What stroke me as very interesting is that the author refers to Mithras as a ¨Pagan Christ¨.

The theory should be that the 3 wise men who saw the Star of Bethlehem and traveled to see the new born king (wise men who weren't Jews apparently) who when they went back home talked about the same event and person from a different perspective than the Jewish inspired gospel authors. Not a different Christ, the same Christ in the language of a different religion...

Faith doesn´t necessarily have to be blind. You can believe and not lose your head.

Belief/faith are vastly different from knowledge.

It seems to be the popular opinion around here that if you do not know something, but believe it, you are crazy. If you don't know something you should definitely have no faith in it.

Belief/faith are vastly different from knowledge.

It seems to be the popular opinion around here that if you do not know something, but believe it, you are crazy. If you don't know something you should definitely have no faith in it.

Funny that you mention that. Popular opinion aside, I wouldn´t put too much stuck in the Generalites, they disappoint constantly (myself included), you explained it quite clearly: belief and faith are vastly different. But neither requires you to lose your head.

I´m going to add something to this train of thought:
You can have faith, without being blind about it.

The theory should be that the 3 wise men who saw the Star of Bethlehem and traveled to see the new born king (wise men who weren't Jews apparently) who when they went back home talked about the same event and person from a different perspective than the Jewish inspired gospel authors. Not a different Christ, the same Christ in the language of a different religion...

Are you implying that all these faiths that preceeded Christianity or developed in tandem with it, are other forms of Christianity? I feel that you´re being a bit off in your grasp of Mithraism or pagan religions in general.

Hm... it may be that. But I thought Mithraism had been the same from the time of the Babylonians (I did forget that other theology you mentioned). Then again, I could be mistaken, after all, I read about those Sumerian based religions close to 8 years ago. Still, I´ll check and get back to you.
If I understand alright, Mithras was indeed an old god from Persia, but was changed a great deal with his introduction into the Greco-Roman world. Or rather, the similarities between him and Christ (And the religion both spawned) were around the same time, from the same place.

EDIT:
Check this link (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/Topics/Religion/Mithraism/David_Fingrut**.html#per).
What stroke me as very interesting is that the author refers to Mithras as a ¨Pagan Christ¨.
Indeed, very interesting. The author also notes that it is rather simplistic to say that Mithras was just the forerunner to Christ as there is a whole host of similar stories running around at that time and that place. Who then can say what was borrowed and what was a parallel development?

belief and faith are vastly different. But neither requires you to lose your head.
I´m going to add something to this train of thought:
You can have faith, without being blind about it.

I agree.

If I didn't I would have to rethink my beliefs(again). ;)

I´m going to add something to this train of thought:
You can have faith, without being blind about it.
Very much so; faith, like knowledge, is both useless and dangerous if you don't question the hell out of it constantly.

Are you implying that all these faiths that preceeded Christianity or developed in tandem with it, are other forms of Christianity? I feel that you´re being a bit off in your grasp of Mithraism or pagan religions in general.

Just the Mithraisms 'Pagan Christ.'

The Jews in Babylon and the mythric wise men in Babylon preceded Christ (for many hundreds of years), they shared more than just world flood stories though, they shared prophesies and hope for the future birth of the Messiah/Christ. The three wise men were not Jews, why then did they come to see the Christ born ruler of the Jews? Because he fulfilled their prophesies too, their star charts told them so. The wise men were magi wise men and they saw the birth of Christ as the fulfillment of their prophesies.

Just the Mithraisms 'Pagan Christ.'

The Jews in Babylon and the mythric wise men in Babylon preceded Christ (for many hundreds of years), they shared more than just world flood stories though, they shared prophesies and hope for the future birth of the Messiah/Christ. The three wise men were not Jews, why then did they come to see the Christ born ruler of the Jews? Because he fulfilled their prophesies too, their star charts told them so. The wise men were magi wise men and they saw the birth of Christ as the fulfillment of their prophesies.

There are a lot of similarities to both faiths, but still... I would be careful in coming to the conclusion that Christ fulfilled the prophesies of the Mithraic wise men. If anything, both religions came to be at the same time.

Then again, my grasp on this subject is limited and I forgot about a lot of what I covered in my Paleo-Christian and Ancient religions classes.:p

There are a lot of similarities to both faiths, but still... I would be careful in coming to the conclusion that Christ fulfilled the prophesies of the Mithraic wise men. If anything, both religions came to be at the same time.

Then again, my grasp on this subject is limited and I forgot about a lot of what I covered in my Paleo-Christian and Ancient religions classes.:p

I'll give you one more example of the parallel... Zoroastrian (which entered recorded history around 500BC, approximately the same time period that the Jews were brought in slavery to Babylon) When Cyrus was released the Jews from Babylonian slavery Zoroastrianism shared many prophesy with Jews, same kind of iconography of world beginnings etc., and after Christ was born and the 3 Magi came to visit, Zoroastrian religion diminished and Mythraism took its place, like the Christians came from the Jewish heritage in the west.

Same prophesies, same fulfillment, same Christ viewed through different religions and different cultures, but a singular event.

(this is the closest you will get me to come to talking about a tin-foil hat theology about Christianity instead of orthodox theology, but I think the evidence bears me out so I'm sharing it)

I'll give you one more example of the parallel... Zoroastrian (which began in the East around 500BC, approximately the same time period that the Jews were brought in slavery to Babylon) When Cyrus was released the Jews from Babylonian slavery Zoroastrianism shared many prophesy with Jews, same kind of iconography of world beginnings etc., and after Christ was born and the 3 Magi came to visit, Zoroastrian religion diminished and Mythraism took its place, like the Christians came from the Jewish heritage in the west.

Same prophesies, same fulfillment, same Christ viewed through different religions and different cultures, but a singular event.

(this is the closest you will get me to come to talking about a tin-foil hat theology about Christianity instead of orthodox theology, but I think the evidence bears me out so I'm sharing it)

Interesting, then again Judaism shared a lot of similarities (in iconography and tales) with many other religions. Same as Christianity later shared and assimilated the tales and several practices of the religions it encountered as it Christianized Europe.

To me, this is nothing more than the human intellect at work. You may say it´s all God given. I say it´s imagination at it´s best. But this is not what we´re really discussing in the end.

Interesting, then again Judaism shared a lot of similarities (in iconography and tales) with many other religions."shared" is putting it nicely. "stole" would be more to the point.