NationStates Jolt Archive

Something I've noticed recently is that many of the current rising economies of the world practice totalitarian government, or at least severely restrict political rights. The UAE is a sheikdom and hardly a democracy, PR China is a one-party dictatorship, Iran and Saudi Arabia are a theocracy and a monarchy respectively, and Russia is a republic, but it's democratic values are fading fast. All of these countries are some of the fastest rising global economies, yet not only are they not democratic, they don't have strong democratic movements. China, I read recently in one article, rules no longer based on communism, but on the twin mandates of economic growth and a resurgent Chinese nationalism. In Iran, I've read, they have people go out onto their roofs once a year and cheer at the same time "Allah Akbar!", supposedly to generate support for their government (which rules in the name of Islam). The people in these countries seem very satisfied with the way their government is doing things, particularly in regards to the economy. Is it possible that instead of democracy spreading along with globalization, a new, fascist-like government spreads instead, one bent on economic growth to satisfy their people to keep them from uprising, while simultaneously promoting nationalist sentiment? Is it possible that instead of seeing Western style democracies spreading, we see governments that more closely resembles China's? What would happen in a world like that?

I don't think that a really undemocratic government guarantees economic success. I do think that multinational corporations already hold more sway than most governments, and that governments will do anything to favor those corporations.

Try taking too much in tax, or enact too restrictive legislation on how they do business, and they'll leave. You'll be left holding the bag of widespread unemployment - which bodes poorly for your government surviving.

Mugabe, for instance, doesn't understand business and economics. Which means that he has to resort to really terrible methods to keep people in line.

Robert Mugabe Militia Hacks, Burns Alive Opposition Leader's Wife
Wednesday, June 11, 2008
http://www.foxnews.com/images/service_times_36.gif

The men who pulled up in three white pickup trucks were looking for Patson Chipiro, head of the Zimbabwean opposition party in Mhondoro district. His wife, Dadirai, told them he was in Harare but would be back later in the day, and the men departed.

An hour later they were back. They grabbed Dadirai Chipiro and chopped off one of her hands and both her feet. Then they threw her into her hut, locked the door and threw a petrol bomb through the window.

The killing last Friday — one of the most grotesque atrocities committed by Robert Mugabe’s regime since independence in 1980 — was carried out on a wave of worsening brutality before the run-off presidential elections in just over two weeks. It echoed the activities of Foday Sankoh, the rebel leader in the Sierra Leone civil war that ended in 2002, whose trade-mark was to chop off hands and feet.

About 70 local supporters of the Movement for Democratic Change supporters gathered Wednesday in Patson Chipiro’s small yard in Mhondoro to protect him.

Inside the hut where his wife of 29 years died, women sang softly to a subdued drum beat next to the cheap wooden coffin. The thatched roof had been destroyed in the fire so they sat under the open sky. The lid could not be closed because Dadirai Chipiro’s outstretched arm had burnt rigid. Her charred hand was found as women swept the hut.

To every action, there's a reaction.

The past century, most countries on the planet have seen at least one dramatic change in the form they are governed, most of those changes heading away from the traditional totalitarian forms of governments to some form or shape of republic, some more democratic than others.
So now some countries are moving actively away from this again. *shrugs* There's very little can be done but to wait and see, really.

Possibly. According to some historians, in the wake of the Great Depression a great many people in Europe lost faith in both democracy and classical economics - hence not just Germany and Italy but Poland and other semi-authoritarian states as well, and the easy acceptance of Keynes over classical liberal economics. Obviously this is contested but, if there is to be a huge economic slowdown and depression as a result of oil prices and a shortage of most staple goods, then it could happen, I suppose. However, the established democracies (UK, France, USA) stayed put, so if you subscribe to that theory, then there's something to be positive about.

Possibly. According to some historians, in the wake of the Great Depression a great many people in Europe lost faith in both democracy and classical economics - hence not just Germany and Italy but Poland and other semi-authoritarian states as well, and the easy acceptance of Keynes over classical liberal economics. Obviously this is contested but, if there is to be a huge economic slowdown and depression as a result of oil prices and a shortage of most staple goods, then it could happen, I suppose. However, the established democracies (UK, France, USA) stayed put, so if you subscribe to that theory, then there's something to be positive about.

I think it might be a generational thing.
Italy, Germany, Poland etc had only recently become democratic republics, and not really entirely of their own initiative. It was and easy step to blame the new system for the problems and become nostalgic about the good old days when they had a strong man leading the country.

The UK, France and the USA had created their own democracies, and had lived in them for so long that the thought of going back to totalitarianism was alien to most of the populations there.

I don't think that a really undemocratic government guarantees economic success. I do think that multinational corporations already hold more sway than most governments, and that governments will do anything to favor those corporations.

Try taking too much in tax, or enact too restrictive legislation on how they do business, and they'll leave. You'll be left holding the bag of widespread unemployment - which bodes poorly for your government surviving.

Mugabe, for instance, doesn't understand business and economics. Which means that he has to resort to really terrible methods to keep people in line.

Robert Mugabe Militia Hacks, Burns Alive Opposition Leader's Wife
Wednesday, June 11, 2008
http://www.foxnews.com/images/service_times_36.gif

The men who pulled up in three white pickup trucks were looking for Patson Chipiro, head of the Zimbabwean opposition party in Mhondoro district. His wife, Dadirai, told them he was in Harare but would be back later in the day, and the men departed.

An hour later they were back. They grabbed Dadirai Chipiro and chopped off one of her hands and both her feet. Then they threw her into her hut, locked the door and threw a petrol bomb through the window.

The killing last Friday — one of the most grotesque atrocities committed by Robert Mugabe’s regime since independence in 1980 — was carried out on a wave of worsening brutality before the run-off presidential elections in just over two weeks. It echoed the activities of Foday Sankoh, the rebel leader in the Sierra Leone civil war that ended in 2002, whose trade-mark was to chop off hands and feet.

About 70 local supporters of the Movement for Democratic Change supporters gathered Wednesday in Patson Chipiro’s small yard in Mhondoro to protect him.

Inside the hut where his wife of 29 years died, women sang softly to a subdued drum beat next to the cheap wooden coffin. The thatched roof had been destroyed in the fire so they sat under the open sky. The lid could not be closed because Dadirai Chipiro’s outstretched arm had burnt rigid. Her charred hand was found as women swept the hut.

Oh yes, but what about a totalitarian government that allows for wide economic freedoms, particularly for corporations, but suppresses political and social freedoms? As it was once said, "give the people bread and circuses" and you'll keep them under your sway. Totalitarian governments seem to be realising that they can keep their power as long as they provide strong economies for their people and rule in the name of nationalist (or in the case of Iran, revolutionist) sentiment. My fear is that this could become the norm for global governments.

As long as the economy is great, and the nation prosperous, and the bad things happen only to a minority, most people will go along with anything the government does.

Whiners can be imprisoned or shot, and no one of consequence will care.

*The OP*
Err aye, in Europe most countries became rich and then as wealth got more distributed, then they become more democratic. Might not be the case everywhere, but there we go.

Err aye, in Europe most countries became rich and then as wealth got more distributed, then they become more democratic. Might not be the case everywhere, but there we go.

It's possible, but Europe goes to extensive measures to protect their democracy. If these totalitarian governments redistribute the wealth in such a way as to keep the people sedated, while maintaining their own authority, then I don't see how a democracy can develop.

It's possible, but Europe goes to extensive measures to protect their democracy. If these totalitarian governments redistribute the wealth in such a way as to keep the people sedated, while maintaining their own authority, then I don't see how a democracy can develop.

That just reminded me of the saying "Wenn's dem Esel zu gut geht, geht er auf's Eis" :D
Germany had one of it's most massive democratic shifts in the late 1960s, when the country was very well off indeed. But suddenly there were a lot of people with access to education, no money worries and a lot of time on their hands. And they found that their country could do with more democracy (as there was a great coalition in power at the time, with no effective opposition party), and more social equality. The movement back then is still significantly shaping Germany and German politics.

That just reminded me of the saying "Wenn's dem Esel zu gut geht, geht er auf's Eis" :D
Germany had one of it's most massive democratic shifts in the late 1960s, when the country was very well off indeed. But suddenly there were a lot of people with access to education, no money worries and a lot of time on their hands. And they found that their country could do with more democracy (as there was a great coalition in power at the time, with no effective opposition party), and more social equality. The movement back then is still significantly shaping Germany and German politics.

Sehr gut. I actually had to do a report on that for German class (the RAF specifically). I'd say it's more likely that democracy develops, but this was a disturbing trend I noticed in modernizing nations.

Consider political self expression as being of rather high on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Once people are fat and happy, with time to spare, they start demanding a say in the politics of their nation. So long as they are impoverished, they are too focused on day-to-day existence to care much about political debate (unless they perceive the state doing significant direct harm to themselves).

One of the important factors in a functioning democracy is an educated electorate. If you look at China, you see the bulk of the population being very uneducated with little understanding of politics and government, hence full democracy in China would be rather harmful. Without an informed and educated electorate, democracy is probably a less effective form of government than oligarchy.

Oh, yeah: as far as them being the fastest growing economies right now, that is not due to the superiority of their governments, merely a combination of factors such as high oil prices (a boon to oil producing nations) and/or having spent so much time under communist rule that they have a long way to catch up. Economic growth will fall back toward the mean soon enough with diminishing returns in development.

pfft yes the usual suspect are making money but we still have: Brazil, India, Azerbaijan etc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(real)_growth_rate)

Russia is Russian, China is Chinese, Iran is Persian and the UAE is Arabic