NationStates Jolt Archive

http://i25.tinypic.com/bf5bo9.jpg

Norway just had to beat its bigger brother to the punch (http://365gay.com/Newscon08/06/061108no.htm)! :)

It's all in merriment, since Sweden is following after the seasonal plenary recess, and after that Denmark, Finland and Iceland are just dominoes waiting to fall. There is no stopping it now. Norway rules in many other ways, of course, so they do deserve an appreciation thread.

http://i25.tinypic.com/bf5bo9.jpg

Norway just had to beat its bigger brother to the punch (http://365gay.com/Newscon08/06/061108no.htm)! :)

It's all in merriment, since Sweden is following after the seasonal plenary recess, and after that Denmark, Finland and Iceland are just dominoes waiting to fall. There is no stopping it now.

Took 'em long enough. I didn't relieze that there was a Church of Norway, and apparently the government has some control over it :confused:

But, yeah, good decision.

Took 'em long enough. I didn't relieze that there was a Church of Norway, and apparently the government has some control over it :confused:

Yeah, in some other ways they are behind us - they still haven't divorced church and state, unfortunately, but the Church of Norway is almost as irrelevant as the Church of Sweden was prior to the separation, so it's not un-overseeable.

I still can't believe that Spain of all countries beat Northern Europe to the punch.

Jesus wept..

.

Don't be crazy, figments of the imagination can't weep. They don't have lacrimal glands or the proper innervation.

I thought you were a Swede Fass.

Regardless a major issue I have with this new law is that the article states that it "gives lesbian couples the same access to medically assisted reproduction"

Why are not male couples allowed to access this or was it already allowed?

I still can't believe that Spain of all countries beat Northern Europe to the punch.

Zapatero's feat was amazing, there's no denying that. He's just what that country needed.

Don't be crazy, figments of the imagination can't weep. They don't have lacrimal glands or the proper innervation.

My imaginary friend weeps sometimes, when I hit him for scaring off the girls.

I thought you were a Swede Fass.

I am. So?

Why are not male couples allowed to access this or was it already allowed?

Male couples don't have uteri, if you didn't know, so you'd see that insemination would be quite wasted on them.

My imaginary friend weeps sometimes, when I hit him for scaring off the girls.

It isn't him, so that's quite unfair of you.

I am. So?

Misread your post I thought it implied you were Norwegian.

Male couples don't have uteri, if you didn't know, so you'd see that insemination would be quite wasted on them.

Hence why they would need medically assisted reproduction. I didn't realize that the article was only referring to insemination

It isn't him, so that's quite unfair of you.

No it is because when I introduce them to him they run off, its cause he looks at them funny.

BTW it is only a joke mate

Hence why they would need medically assisted reproduction.

Once you manage to invent an artificial uterus, sure. Until then, life's just not quite fair.

Once you manage to invent an artificial uterus, sure. Until then, life's just not quite fair.

*Invents artificial uterus. Lets men experience the pain of childbirth. Is happy that he is not a woman or a man who has to give birth*

Once you manage to invent an artificial uterus, sure. Until then, life's just not quite fair.

What about IVF? And I know it is placed inside a uterus later, but some countries don't allow gay male couples to do this, hence my question was this already allowed by law in Norway?

What about IVF? And I know it is placed inside a uterus later, but some countries don't allow gay male couples to do this, hence my question was this already allowed by law in Norway?

I have no idea what you're trying to say or ask. Male gay couples do not have access to IVF because you still need a uterus and those can't be supplied like semen can be.

Right, then: we can all agree that Fass can't actually have babies, not having a womb, which is nobody's fault, not even the Romans, but he can have the RIGHT to have babies.

Male couples don't have uteri, if you didn't know, so you'd see that insemination would be quite wasted on them.
But what about homosexual men who feel that they should be given a chance to try the fertility of insemination for them? I could quite imagine one or the other liking the idea.

http://i25.tinypic.com/bf5bo9.jpg

Norway just had to beat its bigger brother to the punch (http://365gay.com/Newscon08/06/061108no.htm)! :)

It's all in merriment, since Sweden is following after the seasonal plenary recess, and after that Denmark, Finland and Iceland are just dominoes waiting to fall. There is no stopping it now. Norway rules in many other ways, of course, so they do deserve an appreciation thread.

They didn't legalize gay marriage!! :eek:



They just made marriage gender neutral :D

.
Silly boy. Jesus never condemned gay people -_-

Zapatero's feat was amazing, there's no denying that. He's just what that country needed.
Zarkozy, on the other hand...

Poor France :(

Why are not male couples allowed to access this or was it already allowed?
Male couples are given the right to adoption.

No biology for artificial inseminating males :p

They didn't legalize gay marriage!! :eek:



They just made marriage gender neutral :D

Oh, of course, you would quibble over a detail like that. :D

Either way, good going for Norway.

Oh, of course, you would quibble over a detail like that. :D

Either way, good going for Norway.

Of course I would! It's a subtle but important difference :)
Total equality baby!



Go Norway! ...and Spain, and The Netherlands, and Canada, and South Africa... and.. um, one more country.

Yay number six! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/gen055.gif
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/happy057.gif

Is anyone familiar with Norway's legal system? Is this now fairly set in stone, or are there avenues for the opposition (mentioned in the article) to challenge this law?

Norway rules in many other ways, of course, so they do deserve an appreciation thread.

Viva la Norvegia!

from wiki, other reasons to like Norway:
Norway was ranked highest of all countries in human development from 2001 to 2006, and came second in 2007 (to fellow Nordic country Iceland). It also rated the most peaceful country in the world in a 2007 survey by Global Peace Index.

and a plea:
please, Norwegians... do join the EU, we need you!

They didn't legalize gay marriage!! :eek:

They just made marriage gender neutral :D

Here in Italy, the anti-gay-marriage groups like to claim that they protect the "traditional family defined by the Constitution as based on marriage of man and woman"... to bad that the constitution states:


Article 3 [Equality]

(1) All citizens have equal social status and are equal before the law, without regard to their sex, race, language, religion, political opinions, and personal or social conditions.

Article 29 [Marriage]

(1) The familty is recognized by the republic as a natural association founded on marriage.
(2) Marriage entails moral and legal equality of the spouses within legally defined limits to protect the unity of the family.

Article 31 [Family]

(1) The republic furthers family formation and the fulfillment of related tasks by means of economic and other provisions with special regard to large families.
(2) The republic protects maternity, infancy, and youth; it supports and encourages institutions needed for this purpose.


Nowhere in the Constitution of the Italian Republic it is said that marriage can occur only between a man and a woman - nor it is said that it can occur between just two people! The definition of marriage is left to ordinary law... and, because of Article 3 of the Constitution, same-sex marriage cannot be forbidden explicitly by law: it is simply not recognised by law and State, YET (very italian-style, isn't it?).

I like to delude the self-appointed "defenders of family and traditional values". :D

its been a bad year for Kenya :(

SNIP

of course Italy is going to drag this kicking and screaming its not like you guys try and stick out :p

Is anyone familiar with Norway's legal system? Is this now fairly set in stone, or are there avenues for the opposition (mentioned in the article) to challenge this law?

It's passed through parliment, so it's final. Opposition have said what it could, but the ones for the law were in majority. There's no way to challenge it now, though a future parliment could always vote it out again, but I don't think there's any risk of that happening.

And while we do have a state church in Norway, it is still a secular society, and the current administration have even stated that it would be up to each faith to decide if they wanted to wed gay couples (yes, including the state church). It's quite possible to wed non-religiously though, so, if people want to get married they can. But priests, imans, rabbis etc can say that they don't want to. Though they can do that in general anyway.

Yeah, was time. I'm glad it went through :)

I have no idea what you're trying to say or ask. Male gay couples do not have access to IVF because you still need a uterus and those can't be supplied like semen can be.

I think it is called a surrogate, Fass. But what would I know, so since I am obviously wrong tell me Dr. Fass how can two males by themselves naturally reproduce with each other?

No biology for artificial inseminating males :p

Funny today aren't we, well how about you answer the above question directed to Fass as well, smart arse.

I think it is called a surrogate, Fass. But what would I know, so since I am obviously wrong tell me Dr. Fass how can two males by themselves naturally reproduce with each other?

A surrogate eh? Wouldn't that have to be a woman? How should a government go about procuring and dispensing women to men who want to reproduce?

I think it is called a surrogate.
Yes, and I think it has already been mentioned that surrogate mothers have to be regular, living human females, and can therefore not be technically supplied by an uninvolved third party. Well, not in Norway, anyway.

A surrogate eh? Wouldn't that have to be a woman? How should a government go about procuring and dispensing women to men who want to reproduce?

Easy enough. You just take all the women who apply for insemination, and drag the off to those men applying for surrogates.. or something?

Yes, and I think it has already been mentioned that surrogate mothers have to be regular, living human females, and can therefore not be technically supplied by an uninvolved third party. Well, not in Norway, anyway.



Easy enough. You just take all the women who apply for insemination, and drag the off to those men applying for surrogates.. or something?

could work... Roll a dice for which couple gets the baby?

You guys are all funny aren't you, instead of going for the worst attempt at comedy of the month award, you could answer my question.

First up some countries do not allow male gay couples to have children. Now if they are allowed and besides adopting what option is there for them to have a child with at least one of the fathers genes? Is it IVF and what is IVF is it not medically assisted reproduction? If IVF isn't medically assisted reproduction then you guys have been right all along. But I know that it is medically assisted reproduction so now then, yes it requries a uterus but for a woman to also have IVF it requires sperm does it not? Yes I know there are sperm banks but if a male couple finds a willing women to be a surrogate then would that not also work? And is this then not medically assisted reproduction something which according to the article linked in the OP the law is open to lesiban couples. So my question is were male gay couples already allwed to do this or not, and hs the law only given this to lesbian couples? As I said some countries do not allow gay couples to have children adopted or otherwise.

You guys are all funny aren't you, instead of going for the worst attempt at comedy of the month award, you could answer my question.

First up some countries do not allow male gay couples to have children. Now if they are allowed and besides adopting what option is there for them to have a child with at least one of the fathers genes? Is it IVF and what is IVF is it not medically assisted reproduction? If IVF isn't medically assisted reproduction then you guys have been right all along. But I know that it is medically assisted reproduction so now then, yes it requries a uterus but for a woman to also have IVF it requires sperm does it not? Yes I know there are sperm banks but if a male couple finds a willing women to be a surrogate then would that not also work? And is this then not medically assisted reproduction something which according to the article linked in the OP the law is open to lesiban couples. So my question is were male gay couples already allwed to do this or not, and hs the law only given this to lesbian couples? As I said some countries do not allow gay couples to have children adopted or otherwise.

Assuming the surrogate is in working order, IVF would be unnecessary, and if she were not, the law already allows for her to get medical help. IVF cannot be performed on men, gay or otherwise.

The question of whether gay men are allowed to parent is separate to the availability of medically assisted reproduction. The OP is telling us that Norway has legalised marriage for all its citizens and marriage comes with the implicit recognition of parenting rights and responsibilities (as i understand it, this is one of the major differences between marriage and civil partnerships). Gravlen mentioned that gay men are allowed to adopt.

Some men have fertility problems but any treatment for these is given regardless of your sexuality or your relationship status. Again, the treatment specifically mentioned as being available to lesbians can only be performed on women.

of course Italy is going to drag this kicking and screaming its not like you guys try and stick out :p

During the last Prodi (centre-left) cabinet, when christian democrat minister Rosy Bindi tried to prompt the parliament with a proposal for official recognition of civil partnership, regardless of sex (a very mild proposal), she faced a firing squad composed of most of the (then) centre-right minority and of some parts of the centre-left majority (mostly from current members of the Partito Democratico like Bindi herself) crying "defend family! defend traditions! defend christian values!".
The strongest voices claiming to be defending "christian values and traditions" and "the sanctity of marriage" were:
MP Casini, leader of catholic centre-right party UDC. Divorced from former wife - divorced! didn't obtain invalidation of his religious catholic marriage from the Church! - and married a younger woman.
MP Berlusconi, then leader of right-wing party Forza Italia, divorced from first wife (after having had child with her) and married another woman - and Berlusconi is still known as a womanizer.
MP Fini, then leader of postfascist party Alleanza Nazionale, divorced from first wife after cheating on her and married his former paramour.

Hypocrites!

WHY DIDN'T THE POPE STAYED IN AVIGNON? It's all St.Chiara da Siena's fault! :mad:

could work... Roll a dice for which couple gets the baby?

Nah, use hormone treatment to quasi-ensure multiple embryos to develop. We need to refine the method to guarantee an fail-safe twin-trigger, but that should be no problem, eh?

You guys are all funny aren't you?
Yes. Except for you, and of course Plum Duffs, who's proven to not be funny enough to successfully participate in NSG.

Now if they are allowed and besides adopting what option is there for them to have a child with at least one of the fathers genes?
It is not anybody's, let alone the government's, duty to provide every couple with "the right to a biological child". It's the government's duty to provide the same legal access to existing procedures to every couple who qualifies for parenting, but it is not their job to perform biologically impossible feats. If you insist on such things, please contact the deity of your choice, but not the law.

But I know that [IVF] is medically assisted reproduction so now then, yes it requries a uterus but for a woman to also have IVF it requires sperm does it not? Yes I know there are sperm banks but if a male couple finds a willing women to be a surrogate then would that not also work?

I believe you are confusing who is the recipient of the fertility treatment here. If a "willing woman" conceives a child via IVF, no matter whether the donor is an unknown man of unknown sexual preferences or a present homosexual man, then the treatment has been performed on her, not the man; this is therefore not a question of allowing assisted reproduction to a gay man or not because the matter we're dealing with is assisted reproduction for a woman.

Any assisted fertilization that ends up with an embryo in a woman's womb is, legally and practically, a treatment performed on the woman. Whether the sperm originator wants to be anonymous, a random friend, a part of a male homosexual couple, the woman's partner or whatever else is not relevant to the question of whether or not the treatment will be allowed. That's the woman's choice.



So yes, any homosexual man is allowed to inseminate, naturally or medically assisted, any woman who agrees to it. there never has been any limitation to the sperm donor's sexual orientation. Whether or not the homosexual sperm donor may take care of the ensuing child is not a question of reproduction technicalities, but of adoption laws.

Go Norway! ...and Spain, and The Netherlands, and Canada, and South Africa... and.. um, one more country.

Yay number six! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/gen055.gif
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/happy057.gif
Belgium.:p

Norway just had to beat its bigger brother to the punch (http://365gay.com/Newscon08/06/061108no.htm)! :)

It's all in merriment, since Sweden is following after the seasonal plenary recess, and after that Denmark, Finland and Iceland are just dominoes waiting to fall. There is no stopping it now. Norway rules in many other ways, of course, so they do deserve an appreciation thread.

Congrats. :)

They didn't legalize gay marriage!! :eek:

They just made marriage gender neutral :D

Even better.

I'm honestly surprised they didn't do this sooner.

/handclap4kudos.

I think it is called a surrogate, Fass. But what would I know, so since I am obviously wrong tell me Dr. Fass how can two males by themselves naturally reproduce with each other?

one was born a woman!

I <3 riddles

Belgium.:p

pretending they have a sovereign government again are they? :p

Belgium.:p

Watch your mouth! :eek:


;)

Funny today aren't we
Not "we" as much as "me". ;)

And a silly question deserves an answer in kind -_-

Is anyone familiar with Norway's legal system? Is this now fairly set in stone, or are there avenues for the opposition (mentioned in the article) to challenge this law?
It can be repealed like all laws, but there's no real way to challenge it besides that.

its been a bad year for Kenya :(
:p :( :fluffle:

Norway has good chocolate. :)

Norway has good chocolate. :)

Good chocolate makes for a liberal society.


Mmmm... Chocolate :fluffle: