NationStates Jolt Archive

Original post: A cut-and-paste spam by Andaras of an earlier thread on the same article, which can be found here: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5609.

MODEDIT 1: Please read this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13762526&postcount=77) before replying.

MODEDIT 2: Here's what the debate is about now:Meh well, we're sort of going back and forth about the execution of Ochoa Sanchez, and I've brought up some pros and cons to the Cuban system, while mostly other people have been going 'OMG CUBA SUCKS'. I'm sort of waiting for some people to actually discuss what's good about Cuba and could hopefully be salvaged in the context of much needed democratic reform/creation.

-Snip-
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5609

I'm not saying you're wrong, but come on, give credit properly.

Not this shit again.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5609

I'm not saying you're wrong, but come on, give credit properly.
The sad part is that he's already done this before!

I cannot believe I wasted my time reading that.

Oh well.

:sniper:

you mean the system where Arnaldo T. Ochoa Sánchez was arrested and executed with in one month? On trumped up charges, jsut because he said he liked Gorbachev's reforms.

Andaras, you've posted this exact same crap before (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=537960). I'd have left it at a "Oh no, not this shit again" if it had been a different poster, but just repeating one's own threads without any further input whatsoever is just too obnoxious to pass up on. You've had 158 replies telling you just how stupid this was last time around already, so you can't say "The debate never went off the ground, so I wanted to try again", either.

At least you posted the source last time.

That would have been a good use of my time... if it was true... which evidently it is not.

Andaras, you've posted this exact same crap before (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=537960). I'd have left it at a "Oh no, not this shit again" if it had been a different poster, but just repeating one's own threads without any further input whatsoever is just too obnoxious to pass up on.

At least you posted the source last time.

DAMMIT! You beat me to it. If I'd been able to find the original thread sooner, .... :p

Honestly Andaras, you could've provided a link to the original thread, so people wouldn't have to go through the effort of re-making the same arguments. :p

Heard this mental masturbation before: ignorance is strength, 2 + 2 = 5, and we have always been at war with Eastasia.

I am sure this Commie believes himself to be the height of intelligence and insight. I wonder if he has bought his ticket to Cuba yet? Considering the huge influx of immigration to such a democratic paradise it must be hard for the Cuban government to handle all the requests. Of course room was made in Cuba since more than a million Cubans left to come to the repressive enivornment of the US.

Considering how democratic Cuba is I find it amazing that they needed to resort to this:

http://www.floatingcubans.com/

Doesn't Uncle Fidel, elected by a democratic process of course, allow Cubans to come and go as they wish?

Err... when did Cuba become not part of America?

I would be happy to start a collection to liberate him from the US's closest ally so he can escape to enlightened Cuba and experience freedom and equality first-hand.

I would be happy to start a collection to liberate him from the US so he can escape to enlightened Cuba and experience freedom and equality first-hand.

If you are referring to Andaras, he's Australian.

I wonder if blatant plagiarism is illegal in Cuba?

I wonder if blatant plagiarism is illegal in Cuba?

yes and he was executed 5 minutes ago for it.
as he was being taken away he was screaming how great Cuba was and the Cuban police kept telling him he is only making it worse for himself.

I wonder if blatant plagiarism is illegal in Cuba?

Its not. Property is theft, remember.

Andaras, If you are going to make a post about how a certain country lacks political freedom, atleast make it a country where the people are not able to make the point (if they chose to) themselves.

Go and use your awesome liberatory powers to free Myanmar.

The sad part is that he's already done this before!

Why don't we just classify Andaras as a commie flavored bot and have done? I'm sure spam like this is grounds for mod action anyway.

I guess this must be why Cubans keep emigrating from Florida to Cuba...

ohh... wait.

A little bit of me died when I read that horrible piece of crap.:(

Andaras Returns!

In Style!

:p

tl, stopped reading at the part about war.

The POTUS cannot declare war. Only congress can do so.

edit: I lied. Up to the part about Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico does NOT pay taxes. They are citizens of the US, but no, cannot vote for president (as they don't pay taxes), and do have representation in Congress...their rep just cannot vote (again, no taxes, no vote).


Check back for more of Sarky's continuing masochism!

you mean the system where Arnaldo T. Ochoa Sánchez was arrested and executed with in one month? On trumped up charges, jsut because he said he liked Gorbachev's reforms.

Yeah...cuz it's not like people in the US don't get put to death on trumped up charges.

Yeah...cuz it's not like people in the US don't get put to death on trumped up charges.

Please provide a list of political dissidents put to death on trumped up charges in the US.

You're right. It's so much better to target the black, and poor, who overwhelmingly represent those on death row in the US and who overwhelmingly receive harsher sentences for crimes similar to those committed by their white brothers. I mean, not target! No! That would be bad! We're not saying that blacks are inherently more violent or criminal, because that would be racist! No, it's just that um...well...blacks are more violent and criminal than whites. Yes. That's it!

Proof positive of USian superiority. My job here is done.

Don't forget that they also love their nose candy.

Please provide a list of political dissidents put to death on trumped up charges in the US.

You're right. It's so much better to target the black, and poor, who overwhelmingly represent those on death row in the US and who overwhelmingly receive harsher sentences for crimes similar to those committed by their white brothers. I mean, not target! No! That would be bad! We're not saying that blacks are inherently more violent or criminal, because that would be racist! No, it's just that um...well...blacks are more violent and criminal than whites. Yes. That's it!

Proof positive of USian superiority. My job here is done.

Edit: please also completely ignore Amnesty International's scathing report (http://thereport.amnesty.org/regions/americas)of the USA's war on terror and in particular it's detention of political prisoners in Guantanamo. Because that's old news. And boring. And we should ignore things that make us uncomfortable.

tl, stopped reading at the part about war.

The POTUS cannot declare war. Only congress can do so.

I also find it amusing that not only does the article make this mistake, but the complaint it was making - that the executive has too great a power over the legislature - is ironic, considering that the Cuban executive (the Executive Committee) is unelected unlike the President of the US and the Cuban executive wields complete power over the Cuban National Assembly - I'm not aware of any incident where the National Assembly has opposed a decision made by the executive.

You're right. It's so much better to target the black, and poor, who overwhelmingly represent those on death row in the US and who overwhelmingly receive harsher sentences for crimes similar to those committed by their white brothers. I mean, not target! No! That would be bad! We're not saying that blacks are inherently more violent or criminal, because that would be racist! No, it's just that um...well...blacks are more violent and criminal than whites. Yes. That's it!

Proof positive of USian superiority. My job here is done.

Edit: please also completely ignore Amnesty International's scathing report (http://thereport.amnesty.org/regions/americas)of the USA's war on terror and in particular it's detention of political prisoners in Guantanamo. Because that's old news. And boring. And we should ignore things that make us uncomfortable.

Consider Amnesty International's report ignored. That would be the proper response considering their classification of Gitmo detainees as political prisoners. But that is an argument for another time...

As for your other stupidity, where exactly are the examples of people executed for being political dissidents? Ochoa broke with the dogma of the party in Cuba and was executed. Your initial post, the one I commented on, eluded to the idea that the same thing happens here.

I asked for examples. What I got was an ignorant and simplistic view of the US judicial system. For your next post, stay focused and provide the examples I requested.

http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/4/4f/Madred%2C_four_lights.jpg

How many lights are there?

Consider Amnesty International's report ignored. That would be the proper response considering their classification of Gitmo detainees as political prisoners. But that is an argument for another time... So you reject Amnesty International's reports in regards to Cuba then? Or are they to be trusted only when not pointing the cannon at you?

Your babble about Ochoa, where are you getting your information about his political persecution? I certainly hope it's not from the highly suspect Amnesty International!


I asked for examples. What I got was an ignorant and simplistic view of the US judicial system. For your next post, stay focused and provide the examples I requested.Much like the bulk of anything a yank says about Cuba. Tit for tat. You give ignorant and simplistic, you get back in kind.

The majority of you have been so indoctrinated against Cuba, that you can't possibly take a balanced view. I mock this inability in you. When all you can say is 'Cuba bad!' (or on the other side, 'Cuba is all good!'), delving into complicated political analysis with you is completely a waste of my precious time.

...[D]elving into complicated political analysis with you is completely a waste of my precious time.

Ah, the tried and true "I could prove my point, but you wouldn't understand anyway so I'm not going to bother." Classic.

Ah, the tried and true "I could prove my point, but you wouldn't understand anyway so I'm not going to bother." Classic.

Bah, shut it Sdaerijikolas. I've engaged in the Cuba debate in depth a number of times, I certainly don't feel beholden to do it again at this point...I'm more interested in the egalitarianism in same-sex couples thread, and I like tugging on the beards of frothy anti-Cubaists. Not to be confused with anti-Cubists.

*tug*

Besides, most of the people in this thread, including the absent OP don't want a debate, they just want a screaming match.

Bah, shut it Sdaerijikolas. I've engaged in the Cuba debate in depth a number of times, I certainly don't feel beholden to do it again at this point...I'm more interested in the egalitarianism in same-sex couples thread, and I like tugging on the beards of frothy anti-Cubaists. Not to be confused with anti-Cubists.

*tug*

Besides, most of the people in this thread, including the absent OP don't want a debate, they just want a screaming match.

If you're not interested in the Cuba debate, then why are you even here? To troll "anti-Cubaists"?

Bah, shut it Sdaerijikolas. I've engaged in the Cuba debate in depth a number of times, I certainly don't feel beholden to do it again at this point...I'm more interested in the egalitarianism in same-sex couples thread, and I like tugging on the beards of frothy anti-Cubaists. Not to be confused with anti-Cubists.

*tug*

Besides, most of the people in this thread, including the absent OP don't want a debate, they just want a screaming match.

I thought the usual Andaras post was "Communism is teh shizzle..." if he starts the thread, with most people saying, "No, it sucks" and a few people saying, "it's never been tried."

Of course, if you point out to Andaras that state Communism (which Cuba is, and the Soviet Union was) is a failure on the world stage, then he'll get with the people who say, "it's not Communism".

Andaras needs to vary his post topics - I mean, I have more variation than he does...

Yeah...cuz it's not like people in the US don't get put to death on trumped up charges.

When is the last time someone went from arrest to trail to execution with in one month in the US ?

Cuba, on the other hand, has never invaded another country. It has only used its defense forces to defend its own people or to support others under attack, such as defending the Angolan and Namibian people from the apartheid South African army, in the 1980s.

.

Was that the same cuban army that sent 5000 troops to help and support the MPLA in Angola thus lengthening the civil war between Unita and the MPLA from about 4 months to 20 yea.......

..
.

hold on................... we've done this before ..........

If you're not interested in the Cuba debate, then why are you even here? To troll "anti-Cubaists"?

To mock a thread that began with a pathetic, repeated premise, and has been limping along ever since, yes.

Don't let me rain on your serious parade, go on, go on.

Andaras needs to vary his post topics - I mean, I have more variation than he does...

Apparently even this thread is actually a repeat.

....I'm more interested in the egalitarianism in same-sex couples thread, and I like tugging on the beards of frothy anti-Cubaists. Not to be confused with anti-Cubists.

I don't like bumping this thread but I wanted to point out that a debate between Cubists and anti-Cubists would be more interesting than this thread. Plus there's probably overlap between the Cubaists and the anti-Cubists so they could form a Grand Alliance of Socialist Realists and politics would be worked in somehow...

Agreed TFA.

Also, what was the point of your participation in this thread, Sdaeriji? Are you the topic police? Other than ranting at me, you have contributed jack shit, and I'm calling you on your jackshittiness. Apparently doing so is and end in and of itself, and more worthy than mocking a thread.

Agreed TFA.

Also, what was the point of your participation in this thread, Sdaeriji? Are you the topic police? Other than ranting at me, you have contributed jack shit, and I'm calling you on your jackshittiness. Apparently doing so is and end in and of itself, and more worthy than mocking a thread.

To call you on your bullshit debating technique. I was content to read this thread without posting until you came in spouting your crap and refusing to back it up because you're too good to do so.

To call you on your bullshit debating technique. I was content to read this thread without posting until you came in spouting your crap and refusing to back it up because you're too good to do so.

And I made it clear I'm not going to attempt to debate it, especially in a thread begun so poorly and abandoned so quickly. Your little crap interjection is as worthless as mine...you're just too arrogant to admit it.

http://mirror.servut.us/kuvat/copypasta.jpg

Alternative names for this thread:

Why water is not wet.
Why black is really white.
Why up is actually down.

Cuba is only more of a democracy than the U.S. to college sophomores tired of contemplating the tiny worlds that exist on their own belly button lint.

So you reject Amnesty International's reports in regards to Cuba then? Or are they to be trusted only when not pointing the cannon at you?

They are not to be trusted at all.

Your babble about Ochoa, where are you getting your information about his political persecution? I certainly hope it's not from the highly suspect Amnesty International!

Nope. Not AI. I would classify speaking your mind and being shot for it to be "political persecution". Perhaps you have a secret history to share? Please, tell of his crimes.

Much like the bulk of anything a yank says about Cuba. Tit for tat. You give ignorant and simplistic, you get back in kind.

Your the idiot speaking of American persecution of dissidents. I am sorry to have dared to show that to everyone by asking for names. Please excuse me.

The majority of you have been so indoctrinated against Cuba, that you can't possibly take a balanced view. I mock this inability in you. When all you can say is 'Cuba bad!' (or on the other side, 'Cuba is all good!'), delving into complicated political analysis with you is completely a waste of my precious time.

It is quite complicated to call tyranny by its name. It takes enlightened nuance to avoid seeing anything that resembles the political reality of Cuba. Police states CAN be good things if you look at them the right way. Right?

Mock if you will but at least you understand your point of view is a waste of time. It certainly is a ray of hope for your sense of right and wrong. I wish it a healthy recovery.

i don't know how much of a democracy you can have when everybody must ascribe to the same political philosophy.

It is quite complicated to call tyranny by its name. It takes enlightened nuance to avoid seeing anything that resembles the political reality of Cuba. Police states CAN be good things if you look at them the right way. Right?

Considering that the socio-economic wellbeing of Cubans is miles ahead of their Latin American neighbours, there absolutely can be good things.

You see, I've actually been to Cuba, and to many other Latin American nations, and have been able to compare the living conditions first hand. You are forbidden to do so.

Cubans are emphatic in their political views and certainly don't go around talking in hushed whisphers when criticising their government. Shockingly enough, they don't even hate yanks.

Everyone gets a quality education, everyone has access to health care that by far surpasses what is available in most neighbouring Carribbean nations. No one is living in a slum such as you see lining the hills in Lima or Managua, not even to mention the horrors you'll find in the DR and Haiti.

When all you do is villify a country, and refuse to see anything good about it, you remain willfully blind. Which is what you, and your ilk absolutely thrive on. Which is why I mock you. Don't talk to me about 'waste of time' when you aren't here for a debate, just a self-righteous shit-flinging festival.

Canada has an excellent relationship with Cuba, and can still manage to criticise certain policies without making that nation out to be Satan's stronghold. The USian penchant for hyperbole in that regard is an international source of great amusement.

Neesika, share that stuff you're taking. That shit's got to be damn strong.

Neesika, share that stuff you're taking. That shit's got to be damn strong.

Hilarious.

Life expectancy/infant mortality rates

WHO stats (http://www.who.int/countries/cub/en/)
Life expectancy: 76 for males, 80 for females.
Infant mortality rate: 7/10,000

Compare that to Haiti:
59/63
80/10,000

Nicaragua:
68/74
36/10,000

Dominican Republic:
66/74
29/10,000

the United States of America:
75/80
8/10,000

Comparable rates to the USA, much higher than that for other nations in the region.


Education:

link (http://fcis.oise.utoronto.ca/~daniel_schugurensky/assignment1/1998cuba.html)

This year [actually 1998], a report published by UNESCO released the data from a study on educational achievement in Latin America conducted the previous year. The study was coordinated by the Unesco's Regional Office for Education in Latin America and the Caribbean (UNESCO-OREALC). It consisted of a comparative evaluation of achievement in mathematics and language in 13 Latin American countries: Argentina, Bolivia, Brasil, Bolivia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Chile, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Mexico, Paraguay, Peru, and Venezuela.

This comparative study on Latin American educational achievement was particularly important because it was the first one in which the indicators and procedures were agreed upon by the representatives of all the participant countries. The tests were conducted with students in grade 3 and grade 4. Overall, Cuban students showed the highest level of achievement, well above the students from other Latin American countries.

Once again, compared to other Latin American countries, the Cubans are far ahead in terms of education, even when compared to relatively wealthy Latin American nations like Chile. They also receive universal, and excellent health care.

However, when comparing caloric intake to other nations in the region, Cuba ranks fairly low, so the picture is not all rosy. Nonetheless the food issue is quite complicated (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FE483), involving factors such as rationing, the US embargo, shifts in domestic production, variable subsidies for foodstuffs and so forth. Also, you need to take into account that the caloric intake in Cuba is going to be fairly egalitarian because of subsidised staples compared to other nations where the variation between high and extremely low rates of caloric intake must be evened out to an average. Meaning, while no one starves in Cuba, no one is pigging out on opulent feasts either, which cannot be said for the other countries surveyed.

LATIN AMERICA
PER CAPITA FOOD CONSUMPTION (ttp://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/cuba/wwwh0013.htm)
(CALORIES PER DAY)

LATEST
DATA
1954-57 1995

MEXICO 2420 3135
ARGENTINA 3100 3110
BRAZIL 2540 2834
URUGUAY 2960 2826
CHILE 2330 2769
COLOMBIA 2050 2758
PARAGUAY 2690 2560
VENEZUELA 1960 2442
ECUADOR 2130 2436
HONDURAS 2260 2359
CUBA 2730 2291


SOURCE: UN FAO FOOD BALANCE SHEETS


The 'good stuff' I'm on is a lack of complete blindness to the Cuban reality in favour of dogmatic out-and-out villification or support. I suggest you try it.

I cannot wait for future threads started by Andaras. Perhaps we can find such thought-provoking discussions as "White is Actually Black", or "Drinking Water Causes Dehydration" or "Brushing Teeth Causes Plaque Accumulation".

[QUOTE=Neesika;13761792]SNIP!QUOTE]

Satan's stronghold? Yup, it's the Americans who have a penchant for hyperbole. You are right, it is quite amusing. I am glad you are happy that your government endorses a government that oppresses its people. Looking at these forums I thought only America did that.

If you look back, my highly strung friend, you will see that all I requested from you is a list of names of those who have been executed for their political views in America.

I can find many instances of persecution of freedom of speech, freedom of the media, and political executions for the sake of political executions in Cuba.

But never have I spoken with disdain for the Cuban people who have had to live under the tyranny of Castro. You accuse me of trolling when it is you that has, admittedly, been playing that part. I was interested in why you would compare Cuba's suppression of free speech and executions of dissidents to America. I have yet to see name #1.

You have wasted a lot of space telling me why you are too good to answer when you could have just shut me up with some valid names. My guess is that you got nothin'.

So keep up the bluster sister. I am sure someone here is impressed.

Neesika, do you know why I would never listen to people who say a communist country can ever work well? Because I see what "socialist" government did in mine. And it will take decades to undo all the harm.

Neesika, do you know why I would never listen to people who say a communist country can ever work well? Because I see what "socialist" government did in mine. And it will take decades to undo all the harm.

You would never listen. Good to know. Why are you in this thread then?

You have wasted a lot of space telling me why you are too good to answer when you could have just shut me up with some valid names. My guess is that you got nothin'.

So keep up the bluster sister. I am sure someone here is impressed.

The execution of so many black prisoners compared to whites is absolutely political in nature.

You see...the term 'political prisoner' is bound to be coloured by the lense you are viewing the situation through. What is a crime in one country is not in another...what is a freedom in one country is not in another. Much of what the US does in terms of foreign policy would be illegal in Canada, but is perfectly legitimate in your own nation.

No state admits to holding political prisoners. Always there is some other justification.

Some of the prisoners in the US considered 'political' are Leonard Peltier, Mumia Abu-Jamal, Sherman Austin, and Sami Al-Arian. Let's not forget the shameful incident involving the US and Canada, where Maher Arar was intentionally sent to Syria to be tortured.

But of course, you will not admit to any of this, despite international pressure...just like Castro will not admit to the illegitimacy of the charges brought against political prisoners in Cuba.

To pretend that such does not exist in your country, and only in others, is a hallmark of every nation.

Neesika, do you know why I would never listen to people who say a communist country can ever work well? Because I see what "socialist" government did in mine. And it will take decades to undo all the harm.
Many governments that have called themselves 'Communist' have wreaked havoc upon their citizenry, sure. But denying the fact that one particular 'Communist' government provides decent levels of education and healthcare is just silly.

Just a small point here - this discussion is taking place over the internet. Cuban citizens don't have the internet. They weren't apparently even allowed to own computers until Castro kicked the bucket and Raul took over (without a democratic vote, I might add....)

I'm notr saying the US is perfect, and the government has gone downhill for the past century, but please don't say a dictatorship is more democratic than a republic.

As a side note: We're screwed here no matter which scumbag is elected. Democracy is overrated when you only get to choose between two evils. Vote third party! A vote is only "thrown away" if you vote for someone you don't really want. The lesser of two evils is still evil!

Many governments that have called themselves 'Communist' have wreaked havoc upon their citizenry, sure. But denying the fact that one particular 'Communist' government provides decent levels of education and healthcare is just silly.

Exactly.

And I believe it hurts any calls for more democratic freedom to completely villfy a nation, and ignore all these positives. What we do not need in Cuba is the shock treatment...the dismantling of one system and the rapid introduction of another, letting the country spiral downwards into chaos, poverty and inequality to match its neighbours.

Canada puts a fair amount of pressure on Cuba for reform, and we make more headway because we aren't acting like Castro is Stalin.

We should be hoping to maintain the high level of education, health care, and basic economic equality (though with an eye to increasing it, not keeping it static) AND improving the political situation...but you can't do that if you pretend out of blind hatred of communism, that everyone Castro has done is bad.

Just a small point here - this discussion is taking place over the internet. Cuban citizens don't have the internet. They weren't apparently even allowed to own computers until Castro kicked the bucket and Raul took over (without a democratic vote, I might add....)

Um...

1) Castro is alive.
2) Cubans have had access to computer cafes for a long time. You're talking about the ban on personal computers that was recently lifted (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7381646.stm).

Keep in mind...a pair of Levi's costs a Cuba a month's pay. Imagine how hard it would be to afford a computer.

Also keep in mind the extreme censorship of the internet in other nations, and that Cuba has yet to construct the infrastructure needed for widespread access.

I'm notr saying the US is perfect, and the government has gone downhill for the past century, but please don't say a dictatorship is more democratic than a republic.
The OP is tripe.

Nonetheless, Cuba is not completely bereft of any form of democracy. It is not a fully-functioning democracy by any means. The electoral process (http://library.thinkquest.org/18355/democracy_in_cuba.html) is extremely different than you'll find in the US, Canada, or elsewhere. There are many valid criticisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Cuba) to the various processes, but there is at least something to work with there, something to expand upon. Cuba does not have to follow in the footsteps of the US to achieve democracy however, nor does it have to compromise it's dedication to socio-economic rights. Democracy does not HAVE to mean unfettered capitalism.


As a side note: We're screwed here no matter which scumbag is elected. Democracy is overrated when you only get to choose between two evils. Vote third party! A vote is only "thrown away" if you vote for someone you don't really want. The lesser of two evils is still evil!
Ditto here. The only two parties to actually govern Canada are basically the same shit in slightly different smelling piles, and voter apathy is legendary. Direct democratic control is made impossible through tangled bureaucratic bullshit, candidates cannot represent their constitutents...they must represent only the party line.

I think we could all use a little democratic reform.

Dear God, Cuba is a Democracy? I can agree that America is not, but f***ing Cuba?:eek:

The truth is, there is no purely democratic nation and its not likely there ever will be. But I'm pretty sure Cuba's not at the top of the scale. This topic is either the product of a breach with reality or just pure flame bait.

Dear God, Cuba is a Democracy? I can agree that America is not, but f***ing Cuba?:eek:

The truth is, there is no purely democratic nation and its not likely there ever will be. But I'm pretty sure Cuba's not at the top of the scale. This topic is either the product of a breach with reality or just pure flame bait.

It's cut and paste spam, and regurgitated spam at that.

We're hoping something can be salvaged from the partially-digested chunks spewn about the forum, but I'm not holding my breath.

For the same reasons that...

Why USA is an island and Cuba is not...

Also crabs have their teeth IN their stomachs

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: ...*reloads* :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

*sings*
We don't need no education,
We don't need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the classroom...

Sure, perhaps the commies got them electricity and some education system. But now why is the average pay so low? You did mention the cost of a pair of jeans after all.

And indeed, Cuba was a true democracy. One Person, One Vote.

Castro was the Person and he had the Vote.

Bear in mind that education and healthcare aren't enough if someone can be arrested just like that. I'm not defending the United Statesian form of government. The whole region simply has problems with organising itself, leading to dictatorships. Even the most totalitarian states have hints of democracy.

But yes, Cuba is more developed than, say, Burkina Faso. But I don't think that's why we should just pat their heads and smile.

*sings*
We don't need no education,
We don't need no thought control.
No dark sarcasm in the classroom...

Sure, perhaps the commies got them electricity and some education system. But now why is the average pay so low? You did mention the cost of a pair of jeans after all.

And indeed, Cuba was a true democracy. One Person, One Vote.

Castro was the Person and he had the Vote.

Bear in mind that education and healthcare aren't enough if someone can be arrested just like that. I'm not defending the United Statesian form of government. The whole region simply has problems with organising itself, leading to dictatorships. Even the most totalitarian states have hints of democracy.

But yes, Cuba is more developed than, say, Burkina Faso. But I don't think that's why we should just pat their heads and smile.

No, no need to pat their heads... but I dont think that the blockade is helping at all.

Sure, perhaps the commies got them electricity and some education system. But now why is the average pay so low? You did mention the cost of a pair of jeans after all. Wage parity. Doctors make about the same as a tailor, for example. In our countries, we find this unacceptable, because we value doctors more than tailors, right?

However, the focus in Cuba is on ensuring everyone has the necessities of life. Not the luxuries. Everyone gets a set of rations per month, guaranteed, which would provide you with the bare minimum to survive on. Free. Now if this is all you had, you woudn't be in great shape, but you wouldn't starve.

Other foodstuffs are subsidised...a pound of tomatoes for example is about 2 cents Canadian. Not much red meat there, they most have chicken and pork. You get a subsidised price (over the ration amount) up to a certain point, and then you have to pay the higher market value. So you need to husband your resources.

Other material goods are not considered necessities, so things like tvs, washers, driers etc are regular market prices, but extremely expensive when you're making about $20/US a month.

It's about priorities. We might not agree with them (well, I do, to some extent), but we can't just say it's inherently bad that everyone has enough to live on rather than the more common situation where some have most, and most have hardly anything. Compared to the absolute grinding poverty I've seen elswhere in Latin America, against the backdrop of gluttony and excess, I know where I'd rather be a poor person. And it ain't freaking Peru.


Bear in mind that education and healthcare aren't enough if someone can be arrested just like that. I'm not defending the United Statesian form of government. The whole region simply has problems with organising itself, leading to dictatorships. Even the most totalitarian states have hints of democracy. You know, you hear so much about how people can be arrested in Cuba at the drop of a hat...but I heard people speaking very stridently and critically of Cuba, openly and without fear, and they are still not imprisoned. I've seen people much more careful with their words in 'democracies' like El Salvador and Honduras. And I was certainly more afraid for my safety in those countries...in ANY Latin American country I've been to, compared to Cuba.

Now, in the US and Canada we talk a lot about sacrificing freedom for security, and I don't support that. But if Cuba could have more freedom without sacrificing the security it has too much, I could really get behind that.

But yes, Cuba is more developed than, say, Burkina Faso. But I don't think that's why we should just pat their heads and smile.
No, Cuba is more developed than many of it's Latin American neighbours, which frankly should be the pool of comparison. Not the US, not the West, not subsaharan Africa...Latin America.

While we shouldn't be going 'oh that's that then', neither should we be complete fucking idiots spouting 'ZOMG COMMUNISM ARGH!:sniper::headbang:'

Which is too often all you hear in this place.

Point taken. The US of A aren't all good and clean either, the thing is they just outgun everyone else. There's not much that can be done about it, if they're big they WILL abuse it. It's hardly the best example of freedom - I'd probably point Europe as a real show of it. Call the EU semi-commies, but there certainly is a fair bit of freedom there. Ironically, it was the United States that started it.

(that's in reference to the beginning of the topic)

Now... Latin America. That's a whole different story. I find it even more confusing than my own country's politcs. The question is: how can one solve the problem? That's not easy, remember that they do have a different mindset as well. Each nation is different and so is each person.

Point taken. The US of A aren't all good and clean either, the thing is they just outgun everyone else. There's not much that can be done about it, if they're big they WILL abuse it. It's hardly the best example of freedom - I'd probably point Europe as a real show of it. Call the EU semi-commies, but there certainly is a fair bit of freedom there. Ironically, it was the United States that started it.

Based on principles of the French Revolution :p
Edit: The smiley above is meant to indicate a joke, but I'm worried that will be missed, so let me say the above is as tongue in cheek as we could wish the OP were.

It's always going to be a struggle between political and economic freedom, and between conflicting priorities. I think we can learn a few things from Cuba, just as they can learn a few things from us. And you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar...the embargo is a perfect political scapegoat to keep Cuban public opinion firmly against the US, even as they yearn for the economic opportunities available in the US. I think the most dangerous threat to the Cuban status quo would be an end to that embargo.

And on that, I think I've wasted enough time on the internet for one day...*feels guilty*

I wasn't exactly sure which of them were first. But then yes, they did use the French idea that got originally squished in Europe. But hey, how many American families actually, ya know... came from America? Makes sense. Perhaps that's the idea. They might be keeping the embargo to just lift it one day.

That would be in a perfect world where politicians do not need immediate help of a psychiatrist.

Well, I haven't trolled or posted for a bit so it feels refreshing ;)

I dont think that the blockade is helping at all.
As I keep explaining to Andaras every time he posts this or the like: we have an "embargo", not a "blockade". We had a "blockade" for a few days in October 1962, but since then we have not prevented other nations sending ships there, just not sent our own trade-ships. Words make a difference.

The execution of so many black prisoners compared to whites is absolutely political in nature.

You see...the term 'political prisoner' is bound to be coloured by the lense you are viewing the situation through. What is a crime in one country is not in another...what is a freedom in one country is not in another. Much of what the US does in terms of foreign policy would be illegal in Canada, but is perfectly legitimate in your own nation.

No state admits to holding political prisoners. Always there is some other justification.

Some of the prisoners in the US considered 'political' are Leonard Peltier, Mumia Abu-Jamal, Sherman Austin, and Sami Al-Arian. Let's not forget the shameful incident involving the US and Canada, where Maher Arar was intentionally sent to Syria to be tortured.

But of course, you will not admit to any of this, despite international pressure...just like Castro will not admit to the illegitimacy of the charges brought against political prisoners in Cuba.

To pretend that such does not exist in your country, and only in others, is a hallmark of every nation.

Ahhhh... now I see. It is all about how you define "political prisoner". Let's see... killed two FBI agents, killed a police officer,... here we go!

Sherman Austin! This guy was put in jail for a year, over the recommendations of the FBI and the Justice Department, for posting directions on how to produce explosives. Strangely enough, he was prosecuted under Diane Finestien's legislation! I assume she thought it would target white dudes with guns.

Sami Al-Arian is a convicted criminal who was funneling money to terrorists.

Maher Arar had terrorist ties, was a citizen of Syria, as well as Canada, and has offered no proof of actual torture. Strange that turning over a citizen of a country to that country is now a crime. I am sure the Syrians were working very closely with US authorities considering our close relationship.

But this is not political execution of dissidents is it? None of these are. According to you a guy who knocks over a gas station and shoots the guy behind the counter has some validity as a political prisoner. What crap.

Show me the execution of a political dissident without trying to be a little worm about it. Or just say that your knee-jerk reaction to my inquiry was wrong-headed. I have no doubt you will squirm some more.

Yeah...cuz it's not like people in the US don't get put to death on trumped up charges.

Just so you remember my exact words 'little worm'.

Trumped up charges. Things like, 'what? You didn't know cops were going to bust down your door, and not identify themselves? You shot out of self-defence? MONSTROUS! YOU KILLED A COP! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye)"

Serious abortions of justice happen in the US all the time, in particular when it comes to African-Americans.

Now, on to Arnaldo Ochoa Sanchez. Convicted of serious acts of corruption, dishonest use of economic resources, and drug trafficking. The latter being one of the most serious charges still in Cuba. Political prisoner? Political execution? PROVE IT. I'm not going to take your word on it. And since you've discounted Amnesty International as a source, provide another.

You can make idiotic statements about 'executions' all you want. The man was tried and found guilty. A travesty of justice? Quit possible. For a man from a country who is notorious for changing the definition of the term 'torture', who sends Canadian citizens to a nation that is known internationally as a user of torture and who then justifies said actions...your ranting about political deaths while completely ignoring the own miscarriages of justice in your country...is laughable. Worm out of that.

Just so you remember my exact words 'little worm'.

Trumped up charges. Things like, 'what? You didn't know cops were going to bust down your door, and not identify themselves? You shot out of self-defence? MONSTROUS! YOU KILLED A COP! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye)"

Serious abortions of justice happen in the US all the time, in particular when it comes to African-Americans.

Now, on to Arnaldo Ochoa Sanchez. Convicted of serious acts of corruption, dishonest use of economic resources, and drug trafficking. The latter being one of the most serious charges still in Cuba. Political prisoner? Political execution? PROVE IT. I'm not going to take your word on it. And since you've discounted Amnesty International as a source, provide another.

You can make idiotic statements about 'executions' all you want. The man was tried and found guilty. A travesty of justice? Quit possible. For a man from a country who is notorious for changing the definition of the term 'torture', who sends Canadian citizens to a nation that is known internationally as a user of torture and who then justifies said actions...your ranting about political deaths while completely ignoring the own miscarriages of justice in your country...is laughable. Worm out of that.

Now, I don't want to seem like I'm coming in as another mouth-breathing OMG COMMIES poster, Neesika, as I'm not (I'm not sure if we've ever interacted, I think we have, but that's besides the point), but I would like to hear how you view the political situation in Cuba.

Yes, it has a wonderful health system and such and so forth, but to me Cuba is a dictatorship, and no matter how wonderful a country it is, it is still a dictatorship. Without seeming demanding, I wonder if you A) agree that it is a dictatorship, and B) if you do not agree, how you defend the political situation.

Now, on to Arnaldo Ochoa Sanchez. Convicted of serious acts of corruption, dishonest use of economic resources, and drug trafficking. The latter being one of the most serious charges still in Cuba. Political prisoner? Political execution? PROVE IT. I'm not going to take your word on it. And since you've discounted Amnesty International as a source, provide another.

You can make idiotic statements about 'executions' all you want. The man was tried and found guilty. A travesty of justice? Quit possible.

From Cuban military records. arrested June 12th 1989
Executed July 12th 1989.
How do you legitimately investigate take to trail then execute in the course of 1 month ??
Where was the appeals process???
A quick time frame here from arrest to trail is 6 months. In the cases where the death penalty is involved there would be years for the appeals process and the hope more evidence comes to light.

From Cuban military records. arrested June 12th 1989
Executed July 12th 1989.
How do you legitimately investigate take to trail then execute in the course of 1 month ??
Where was the appeals process???
A quick time frame here from arrest to trail is 6 months. In the cases where the death penalty is involved there would be years for the appeals process and the hope more evidence comes to light.
First, let me point out that I think comparing atrocities in other nations to ones committed in your own as a way to say 'well those guys are WORSE, so what we do isn't is bad' is intellectually dishonest, and I want no part of it.

Let me put it this way.

I oppose the death penalty, regardless of where it is meted out.

I don't believe the trial of Ochoa Sanchez was particularly fair. "Justice" is a loose term for his trial. Nonetheless, his death was not extrajudicial, he was afforded a trial, and however laughable that process is, without further proof, the Smiling Frogs can not legitimately claim that 'a political prisoner was executed'.

The position being taken is one of moral superiority which is frankly laughable considering the source. Corrupt justice is not a hallmark of Cuba alone, but is rife within the West as well. Shall I pull up old history in the US? Shall I drum out the names of the Kent State 4 as examples of true extrajudicial killings? Shall I condemn the US as inherently corrupt, and claim it's the fault of capitalism? Well sure, I could, but I'd be oversimplifying the issue to a stupid degree.

Right now in the US, extraordinary measure are being taken to curtail the freedom of terror suspects. Trumped up charges, indefinite detentions without charges, sweeping powers that have influenced legislative changes in Canada, Britain and in other nations. It's disgusting, no matter who is doing it, but you can bet were Cuba doing what the US currently is, the frothing from the anti-Casto crowd would be legendary. Focusing such vitrol on Cuba, ignoring its security concerns while supporting the security concerns of the US and other nations is also intellectually dishonest.

Now, I don't want to seem like I'm coming in as another mouth-breathing OMG COMMIES poster, Neesika, as I'm not (I'm not sure if we've ever interacted, I think we have, but that's besides the point), but I would like to hear how you view the political situation in Cuba.

Yes, it has a wonderful health system and such and so forth, but to me Cuba is a dictatorship, and no matter how wonderful a country it is, it is still a dictatorship. Without seeming demanding, I wonder if you A) agree that it is a dictatorship, and B) if you do not agree, how you defend the political situation.

Cuba is a dictatorship.

Peru is not.

I'd rather live in Cuba.

The term 'dictatorship' doesn't tell the whole story. Cuba is not Burma. Then again, it's not Switzerland either.

You need to weigh the pros and cons of the Cuban system honestly, and few people seem willing to do so.

Andaras, you've posted this exact same crap before (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=537960). I'd have left it at a "Oh no, not this shit again" if it had been a different poster, but just repeating one's own threads without any further input whatsoever is just too obnoxious to pass up on. You've had 158 replies telling you just how stupid this was last time around already, so you can't say "The debate never went off the ground, so I wanted to try again", either.

At least you posted the source last time.

AP used to post sources?? Now I really have heard everything.

I am most amused by how ardently he supports Cuba's "democracy", "free speech" and "human rights" record, when he has time and again sworn that he is against all three.

First, let me point out that I think comparing atrocities in other nations to ones committed in your own as a way to say 'well those guys are WORSE, so what we do isn't is bad' is intellectually dishonest, and I want no part of it.

Let me put it this way.

I oppose the death penalty, regardless of where it is meted out.

I don't believe the trial of Ochoa Sanchez was particularly fair. "Justice" is a loose term for his trial. Nonetheless, his death was not extrajudicial, he was afforded a trial, and however laughable that process is, without further proof, the Smiling Frogs can not legitimately claim that 'a political prisoner was executed'.

The position being taken is one of moral superiority which is frankly laughable considering the source. Corrupt justice is not a hallmark of Cuba alone, but is rife within the West as well. Shall I pull up old history in the US? Shall I drum out the names of the Kent State 4 as examples of true extrajudicial killings? Shall I condemn the US as inherently corrupt, and claim it's the fault of capitalism? Well sure, I could, but I'd be oversimplifying the issue to a stupid degree.

the shooting at Kent state was not extra judicial there was no order from the goverment to shoot college kids.
Some kids in the national guard panicked when some spoiled rich kids in college threw rocks at them. It is an over reaction by individuals.

Right now in the US, extraordinary measure are being taken to curtail the freedom of terror suspects. Trumped up charges, indefinite detentions without charges, sweeping powers that have influenced legislative changes in Canada, Britain and in other nations. It's disgusting, no matter who is doing it, but you can bet were Cuba doing what the US currently is, the frothing from the anti-Casto crowd would be legendary. Focusing such vitrol on Cuba, ignoring its security concerns while supporting the security concerns of the US and other nations is also intellectually dishonest.

Likewise if the US doing to its own citizens what the Cuban goverment did to Ochoa Sanchez there would have been an armed uprising here. Even once would have evoked massive street protest. My concern is what we do to our own citizens not what happens to others.

The OP is purest copy/paste spam, not to mention repetitive. I was about to lock the thread when I saw a decent debate had developed.

Please keep it that way -- ie, no need to tell Andaras your opinion of his post, or to go off (the new) topic by further comment on the idiocy of the original.

Believe me, I'll do that quite adequately by TG.

You have fallen into Castroian propaganda hook line and sinker; Cuba is as much a democracy as Iraq was, as Iran, Venezeula, Zimbabwe, et cetera.

MODEDIT: Repetition deleted. You missed this bit:no need to tell Andaras your opinion of his post

Venezeula

I'm not sure that example helps your case much.

Awww man, I come back to a mere handful of posts? You see? There's little point in going into the effort on this topic when people want only to scream slogans. Sheesh.

the shooting at Kent state was not extra judicial there was no order from the goverment to shoot college kids.
Some kids in the national guard panicked when some spoiled rich kids in college threw rocks at them. It is an over reaction by individuals.

Merriam-webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/extra-judicial)

1 a: not forming a valid part of regular legal proceedings <an extrajudicial investigation> b: delivered without legal authority : private 2a(2) <the judge's extrajudicial statements>
2: done in contravention of due process of law <an extrajudicial execution>

Agents of the state (members of the national guard) acting outside of the law is the definition of extra-judicial. You don't get to have 'individual' reactions when you are in a position of government mandated authority, acting in an official capacity. If you honestly want to cling to your narrow definition of 'only under government orders' then you will be hard pressed to prove nearly ANY extra-judicial killing in any country.

The blinding hypcrisy that too many seem willing to engage in is what outrages me the most...and should outrage you, were you even willing to see it. That you will allow your government, or yourselves to go to extraordinary lengths to justify the unjust, while raining criticism down on the injustices of others, greatly weakens your position. There is no weakness in admitting the faults of your own government while also recognising its strengths, and doing so shows that you have the capacity for a balanced view.


Likewise if the US doing to its own citizens what the Cuban goverment did to Ochoa Sanchez there would have been an armed uprising here. Even once would have evoked massive street protest. My concern is what we do to our own citizens not what happens to others. You have absolutely no proof to back up your hypothesis, as you've had no situation remotely comparable, nor is this even remotely relevant to whatever argument you are trying to make. Massive riots in the US over decidedly racist, and unfair verdicts have happened. So what? Does that make the injustice better?

You should absolutely be concerned with what your government does to its own citizens, but I don't see the point of stating how little you care for anyone else, when engaged in a debate about Cuba. So, do you care, or don't you? It's not a hard position to decide on.

The execution of so many black prisoners compared to whites is absolutely political in nature.

So, it would never be possible that more than half of the murders in the US are committed by members of a minority of our population?

Latest Department of Justice stats show this to be true.

Has been for years.

Are you saying that's political? Because you're high if you believe that. They're mostly killing each other.

It's not the government, or "whitey" killing them, out there on the streets, or forcing them to murder one another.

People who kill cops and FBI agents always have the right to do so. Noted.

Now, on to Arnaldo Ochoa Sanchez. Convicted of serious acts of corruption, dishonest use of economic resources, and drug trafficking. The latter being one of the most serious charges still in Cuba. Political prisoner? Political execution? PROVE IT. I'm not going to take your word on it. And since you've discounted Amnesty International as a source, provide another.

I see, Cuba had a perfect right to kill Arnaldo. I am sure he was found guilty in a court of law. But your little rogues gallery were all innocent victims of the US government. Please tell me about the wonders of the Cuban judiciary.

You can make idiotic statements about 'executions' all you want.

The only one doing that is you. Your the one claiming all black criminals are the victims of whitey and his attempt to stifle the black man's political progress. Sorry if that idea is bullshit but it is YOUR bullshit.

The man was tried and found guilty. A travesty of justice? Quit possible. For a man from a country who is notorious for changing the definition of the term 'torture', who sends Canadian citizens to a nation that is known internationally as a user of torture and who then justifies said actions...your ranting about political deaths while completely ignoring the own miscarriages of justice in your country...is laughable. Worm out of that.

We have miscarriages of justice. I never said we didn't. We do not, however, executed people based on their political views. A claim you made and you still can't prove.

The worm is in your court.

So, it would never be possible that more than half of the murders in the US are committed by members of a minority of our population?

Latest Department of Justice stats show this to be true.

Has been for years.

Are you saying that's political? Because you're high if you believe that. They're mostly killing each other.

It's not the government, or "whitey" killing them, out there on the streets, or forcing them to murder one another.

Ok, I'll go into this a bit, but I'm not willing to completely sidetrack this thread completely.

I'll compare the situation in the US to the situation in Canada, recognising the disparity in population, and the fact that our 'target group' are aboriginals, not African-Americans.

From the US Department of Justice (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/pjim02.htm).

What we're talking about is the difference in sentencing. Blacks make up 12.32% of the population in the US according to the census of 2000, yet represent 43.91% of all federal and state inmates. In particular, the disparity (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/dtdata.htm) in convictions for drug use and possession bear remarkeable racial tones.

Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/incarceration/) (I've linked to the data they've used above, so you can peruse it at your leisure, rather than have it regurgitated completely to you from a source I'm sure you won't trust)
For example, although the proportion of all drug users who are black is generally in the range of 13 to 15 percent, blacks constitute 36 percent of arrests for drug possession. Blacks constitute 63 percent of all drug offenders admitted to state prisons. In at least fifteen states, black men were sent to prison on drug charges at rates ranging from twenty to fifty-seven times those of white men

Now, to go specifically into the sentencing issue (which is also a huge, federally researched and acknowledged problem here for aboriginals).

One example of sentencing differences for drug offenses is the different way cocaine and crack cocaine are treated. Most defendents getting a crack cocaine conviction end up doing 3 - 8 times the time as someone charged with cocaine possession.1

In 1993, Whites account for 30.8 percent of all convicted federal drug offenders, Blacks 33.9 percent, and Hispanics 33.8 percent.

Sentencing patterns for some drugs show high concentrations of a particular racial or ethnic group. Most strikingly, crack cocaine offenders are 88.3 percent Black. Conversely, methamphetamine offenders are 84.2 percent White. Powder cocaine cases involve sizeable proportions of Whites (32.0%), Blacks (27.4%), and Hispanics (39.3%).

Again, this is significant since it shows that whites are basically on par with blacks when it comes to actual total drug offenses, but because of sentencing differences, will do less time than their black counterparts.

As in Canada, the 'target' group in question tends to commit more specific crimes, not more crimes overall. In Canada, aboriginals commit more property crimes and assaults. In the US, you have a rising percentage of African-Americans committing intraracial violence (murder, rape, assault). Whites are disproportionately more likely to commit non-violent crimes, 'white collar crimes'. Yet, most convicted child molestors are white 2 (70%), and receive shorter sentences (an average of 6 years, and only 43% of their full sentence) than black males convicted for crack cocaine possession (11 years and 80% of full sentence). In fact, from the same source, "white inmates were nearly 3 times more likely than black inmates to have had a child victim."

The overall sentences for offenders with child victims are shorter than for offenders with adult victims other than murder and kidnapping (the rape of a child gets the median sentence 180 months compared to 240 months for adult victims). Blacks commit more violent sexual offenses against adults, and receive longer jail times than whites commiting violent sexual offenses against children. You can say apples to oranges, but there is definitely racial disparity both in the sexual offenders, their victims, and their sentences.

In the literature 3four reasons are often cited for the disparity in sentencing between African Americans and whites in the US, prosecutorial discretion (especially in regards to seeking the death penalty), ineffective assistance of council and procedural bars, venue and jury selection and racism by jurors. The difference in treatment between street crime and 'white collar' crime (ha, ha) is of course based on a particular ideology, and view of the impact of both sorts of crimes, and can't be blamed on choosing sentences 'after the fact' depending on which race the defendant belongs to. Nonetheless, that ideology IS political, and does have serious racial ramifications. So yes, I'm saying it's political. When assault with a weapon gets you a more serious term than defrauding employees of their pensions, that decision is absolutely political in nature.

1. http://www.ussc.gov/crack/CHAP7.HTM
2. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/cvvoatv.txt

I'm talking about actual murders committed, and who they are committed against.

As a percentage of the population blacks are a minority. Yet they consistently commit half the murders. And 94% of the time, their victims are black.

Are you saying they are actually innocent black people rounded up by the police, and railroaded through the courts, and that actually white people are secretly murdering black people?

You're moving the goalposts. There are more death penalty murder cases because blacks commit more egregious murders far more often than any other ethnic group in America.

People who kill cops and FBI agents always have the right to do so. Noted. If that's the argument you want to make...I certainly haven't. Nonetheless, many international organisations consider the people I have named political prisoners in your country. By your reckoning, when someone from outside your country says such a thing, they are right. They do not have to provide proof, they just have to show enough moral outrage to be convincing. At least...that's all you've done in regards to your accusations against Cuba.

Tit for tat.



I see, Cuba had a perfect right to kill Arnaldo. I am sure he was found guilty in a court of law. But your little rogues gallery were all innocent victims of the US government. Please tell me about the wonders of the Cuban judiciary. You made the assertion that his killing was that of a political prisoner. The onus on you is to show me this in fact. Just as you rightfully shouldn't be taking my word for the 'political prisoner' tag slapped on Mumia et al, there is no way in hell I'm going to simply take your word when it comes to Ochoa Sanchez's military trial and execution. Do you see how this works?



The only one doing that is you. Your the one claiming all black criminals are the victims of whitey and his attempt to stifle the black man's political progress. Sorry if that idea is bullshit but it is YOUR bullshit. I've seen ample evidence of your struggle with reading comprehension, so I'll forgive your mangled version of my position. I've provided a post which I have high hopes will make things clearer, but as I see you are loaded with vitrol rather than facts, or any actual arguments, I don't really expect you to get it right.



We have miscarriages of justice. I never said we didn't. We do not, however, executed people based on their political views. A claim you made and you still can't prove. I never made that claim. I even quoted myself for your benefit so you could be reminded of that. I said 'trumped up charges (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=109&scid)'. The reasons for wrongful convictions are many...it can involve complicity in the judiciary, or simple mistakes on the part of investigators....it can also involve racism. My point from the beginning is that your high moral ground shakes like a latina's ass during a reggaeton competition.

The worm is in your court.
When you've done no work, provided no sources, or backed yourself up in any way?

Hardly. You missed your serve.

I'm talking about actual murders committed, and who they are committed against. I really don't care. You don't get to take my statement, and then interpose your agenda over it. I've given you the facts to back up my assertion of racial inequality in the justice system of the US, which again, was the point I originally made.

As a percentage of the population blacks are a minority. Yet they consistently commit half the murders. And 94% of the time, their victims are black.

Are you saying they are actually innocent black people rounded up by the police, and railroaded through the courts, and that actually white people are secretly murdering black people?

You're moving the goalposts. There are more death penalty murder cases because blacks commit more egregious murders far more often than any other ethnic group in America. The only one moving the goalposts is yourself. You make ridiculous statements and attribute them to me...I refuse to accept them. I spoke of the entire system, not simply murder, and that entire system is rife with racial sentencing inequality.

So DK, play this little game of yours with a poster who isn't familiar with your tactics. I suggest starting a new thread, instead of continuing to hijack this one.

I really don't care. You don't get to take my statement, and then interpose your agenda over it. I've given you the facts to back up my assertion of racial inequality in the justice system of the US, which again, was the point I originally made.
The only one moving the goalposts is yourself. You make ridiculous statements and attribute them to me...I refuse to accept them. I spoke of the entire system, not simply murder, and that entire system is rife with racial sentencing inequality.

So DK, play this little game of yours with a poster who isn't familiar with your tactics. I suggest starting a new thread, instead of continuing to hijack this one.

I'm not hijacking it.

You said murder.

Well, they're being sentenced out of proportion because they actually commit the murders out of proportion.

Period.

You have no proof that it's because whitey is keeping them down.

The only logical alternative you would have is to assert that they aren't committing that many murders - in which case, you would have to answer who is killing all those black people? Well, Obama would say, "Whitey", because that's what his church says.

Any country that censors opposition and forces opposing parties underground, as well as outlawing independent journalism, is not democratic but practically the polar opposite of democratic.

I'm not hijacking it.

You said murder.

*snip bizarre rant that ends up implicating me as part of Obama's church or something*
The execution of so many black prisoners compared to whites is absolutely political in nature.

Actually, I didn't say murder, I said 'executions'.

Furman v. Georgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furman_v._Georgia), even back in '72, Supreme Court justices made note of the extreme racial bias in regards to the death penalty.

But what did they know, stupid judges, no familiarity with the legal system.

In 1990, the U.S. General Accounting Office report (http://archive.gao.gov/t2pbat11/140845.pdf) revealed "a pattern of evidence indicating racial disparities in charging, sentencing and imposition of the death penalty. But they must be wrong, and you'll provide the evidence as to how.

In 1997, the American Bar Association called for a moratorium (http://www.abanet.org/abanet/media/release/news_release.cfm?releaseid=209) on executions, concluding that "racial discrimination remain[s] in courts across the country."

But what do they know. I mean, probably the ABA only contains slimy defence attorneys, not prosecutors.

Now the ball is in your court, DK, in ANOTHER THREAD DEALING WITH THIS ISSUE, to refute these sources with sources of your own. Not regurgitated stats, not unsourced claims, but actual facts, actual studies. Get on it.

Any country that censors opposition and forces opposing parties underground, as well as outlawing independent journalism, is not democratic but practically the polar opposite of democratic.

I really wish we could change the OP...I don't think the debate about 'democracy' has actually been the focus since then.

You're right. It's so much better to target the black, and poor, who overwhelmingly represent those on death row in the US and who overwhelmingly receive harsher sentences for crimes similar to those committed by their white brothers. I mean, not target! No! That would be bad! We're not saying that blacks are inherently more violent or criminal, because that would be racist! No, it's just that um...well...blacks are more violent and criminal than whites. Yes. That's it!

Yes, black people receive harsher sentences in some areas of the country depending on the judge/jury at the trial. But at least they're imprisoned, more often than not, for committing a real crime as opposed to... speaking out against the ever so democratic CCP.


Edit: please also completely ignore Amnesty International's scathing report (http://thereport.amnesty.org/regions/americas)of the USA's war on terror and in particular it's detention of political prisoners in Guantanamo. Because that's old news. And boring. And we should ignore things that make us uncomfortable.

No. These prisoners are prisoners of foreign engagements and they are not U.S citizens, therefore they are not subject to US civil rights, and we don't have to protect them from anything quite frankly. So yeah, I'll ignore A.I's reports, and I'll accept that Gitmo prisoners might be poorly treated. But there's a big difference between being hit over the head a few times for being a suspected associate of international terrorism, and being a pen pusher in Havanna who just got shot because he's not too fond of Uncle Castro's policies.

Neesika, do you know why I would never listen to people who say a communist country can ever work well? Because I see what "socialist" government did in mine. And it will take decades to undo all the harm.
You would never listen. Good to know. Why are you in this thread then?

And there you have it. I think we're going to take the stance of one who lived in a socialist country over one who merely 'visited' one. I'll take my laptop which I proudly use to criticize my government over Cuba any day, thank you.

Some of the prisoners in the US considered 'political' are Leonard Peltier, Mumia Abu-Jamal, Sherman Austin, and Sami Al-Arian. Let's not forget the shameful incident involving the US and Canada, where Maher Arar was intentionally sent to Syria to be tortured.

Mumia Abu-Jamal is inside on charges for the murder of a police officer. He was not imprisoned on charges of being a political dissident, and though his affiliation with the Black Panthers may not have done him any good on trial, it was certainly not for this reason that he was sentenced to death row.

Arar, though his case was an absolute blunder and sign of America's faulty intelligence, was arrested for suspicion of terrorist connections. I do not consider this being a political prisoner.

I really wish we could change the OP...I don't think the debate about 'democracy' has actually been the focus since then.

I see, damn me, I always miss the beginning of major threads. So what is the debate about now?

Yes, black people receive harsher sentences in some areas of the country depending on the judge/jury at the trial. But at least they're imprisoned, more often than not, for committing a real crime as opposed to... speaking out against the ever so democratic CCP.
Talk to the missing OP about 'democratic'.

The point has always been that while low down dirty shit happens in Cuba, it happens in your own back yard as well, and if you're going to ignore all the positives about Cuba simply because you find their judicial 'irregularities' too much to bear, I have to question your ability to live with so much hypocrisy. There are plenty of good things about the US that outweigh the negatives of a racist judicial system. It doesn't mean you shouldn't be fighting for change, just as Cubans must in their own country.

The only reason I joined this debate was because I'm sick of the lowbrow trashing of Cuba...the absolute lack of a balanced view...criticisms without depth. There is plenty to criticize, but it needs to be done in context, with an eye to actual improvements, not just condemnation. That so few of the posters in this thread have spared the effort to engage in this suggests to me once again that a debate is not desired...just a mud-flinging match.

The only consolation I've had is that AP is not here to answer back with moronic propaganda.


No. These prisoners are prisoners of foreign engagements and they are not U.S citizens, therefore they are not subject to US civil rights, and we don't have to protect them from anything quite frankly.
Yeah, blah blah blah. Point being, what you do in your country (or in your country's name) is generally going to be justifiable to you as a citizen on some level, else it probably wouldn't continue. Every nation on earth justifies injustice...finds some reason for its necessity, whether that be security concerns, or something else. Cuba does the same thing, and believes as firmly as you do (in the rightness of Gitmo), about ITS right to execute those who are a danger to the safety and stability of its state.

It's easy for a person from one country, to discount the safety and security concerns of another country....but that you can do so while completely failing to analyse the validity of your own nation's same concerns is problematic to me. How can you possibly claim to come at this from a balanced point of view with such a blind spot?


So yeah, I'll ignore A.I's reports, and I'll accept that Gitmo prisoners might be poorly treated. But there's a big difference between being hit over the head a few times for being a suspected associate of international terrorism, and being a pen pusher in Havanna who just got shot because he's not too fond of Uncle Castro's policies.

Again, prove it. He was convicted of some very serious crimes. As I noted, drug-trafficking in Cuba is an offense punishable by death...they take it VERY seriously there. If you believe that these are trumped up charges, well...hey, I'm not dead set against that distinct possibility. But unless you can actually prove that, I simply am not going to accept your word on the matter. Just as you would not accept my word on the matter of detainees in Gitmo...the qualitative difference between indefinate detention without charges, or a trial, and the ridiculously quick trial and execution of Ochoa Sanchez not being extreme, in my view.


And there you have it. I think we're going to take the stance of one who lived in a socialist country over one who merely 'visited' one. I'll take my laptop which I proudly use to criticize my government over Cuba any day, thank you.
Yes, because a complete stranger on the internet who has provided no sources or information on said 'socialist country', and has merely made vague statements about its badness is certainly more compelling than actual facts and figures.

OMG, you know what!? I lived in Albania under communism and let me tell you...communism is BAD!

Oh wait no, I lived in Chile under Pinochet's dictatorship when the free market was kept 'free' by harsh political repression, and let me tell you, unfettered capitalism is horrible!

Your 'critique' of Cuba is shallow, biased, and unsourced. I'm disappointed in you. Many others have managed to do a fantastic job at what you only claim to do.



Mumia Abu-Jamal is inside on charges for the murder of a police officer. He was not imprisoned on charges of being a political dissident, and though his affiliation with the Black Panthers may not have done him any good on trial, it was certainly not for this reason that he was sentenced to death row.

Seriously, how much more do I have to lay it out for you? Do I need to explain this point by point? I suppose I must.


Vague, unsubstantiated labelling of people as 'political prisoners' by those outside a nation are worthy of dismissal.
When people on the international stage label Mumia et al. 'political prisoners' and fail to make a convincing argument with sources, this is worthy of dismissal.
When people on the international stage label the execution of Ochoa Sanchez as a 'political murder' without a convincing argument and sources, this is worthy of dismissal.
I have been attempting to make clear to you that just because one person says 'political prisoner', it doesn't make it true. People do this in relation to your nation, and you reject it...but you are doing the same thing in relation to Cuba.
Welcome to your hypocrisy. I've never attempted to prove Mumia et al. are political prisoners because I don't really buy into that...I have been trying to show you why labels alone do not an argument make.


But by all means, get completely sidetracked, ignore my calls for proof, for balance, or for hell, even an actual argument.


Arar, though his case was an absolute blunder and sign of America's faulty intelligence, was arrested for suspicion of terrorist connections. I do not consider this being a political prisoner.
He was a Muslim. There was no proof on either side (the Canuks fucked up as badly if not more than you guys on this one, but at least have had the balls to admit it) of any terrorist activity on his part. Barring any actual evidence to support the charges of terrorism, it seems that Arar was indeed a victim of politics...racial politics which targets Muslims and feels that even unproven threats are justification for sending a man to torture.

Now that's a deal your people have made. Loss of political freedoms in return for 'security'. A political decision, and one that every single nation on earth needs to grapple with at one point or another. One that Cuba grapples with.

Why you honestly believe your vague, unsubstantiated security concerns are worth the brutal torture of a human being while unflinchingly accusing Cuba of taking their security concerns too far...without proof, without evidence of such...is baffling, to be honest. The only conclusion I can come to is that your security concerns are closer to home, and therefore more important to you, which is perfectly understandable. It does not, however, make you right.

I see, damn me, I always miss the beginning of major threads. So what is the debate about now?

Meh well, we're sort of going back and forth about the execution of Ochoa Sanchez, and I've brought up some pros and cons to the Cuban system, while mostly other people have been going 'OMG CUBA SUCKS'. I'm sort of waiting for some people to actually discuss what's good about Cuba and could hopefully be salvaged in the context of much needed democratic reform/creation.

When you've done no work, provided no sources, or backed yourself up in any way?

Hardly. You missed your serve.

Sure baby, you make the wild accussations of political executions, never back them up, and I am the one not doing the homework.

If you feel the need to gloat over this fantastic victory please do so now as I now find you, in regards to your circular argument, boring. You have an excellent day.

Sure baby, you make the wild accussations of political executions, never back them up, and I am the one not doing the homework. Muahahahaha....that's delightfully ironic considering you repeated failure to provide a shred of proof in regards to the Ochoa Sanchez issue. My unsubstantiated accusations were specifically intended to get you to admit how silly it is to make unsubstantiated accusations. I'm sorry you were unable to grasp the lesson, or back yourself up the next time you unsubstantiatedly accused once more.

My god man, you didn't even provide a link ONCE. That's lame.

If you feel the need to gloat over this fantastic victory please do so now as I now find you, in regards to your circular argument, boring. You have an excellent day.

I've provided facts, sources, reports, studies, statistics. I've laid out my argument step by step. All you've managed to do is repeat yourself, and ignore my requests for an actual discussion on your part involving facts, sources, reports, studies, statistics...or an argument, at the very least.

When I rightfully declare myself the 'victor' it's not with the belief that I've won any sort of debate. You were never engaged in one to begin with, and one cannot debate oneself.

Enjoy the rest of your day...may you expend as little energy as you have here.

*the crowd lifts Neesika up on their shoulders*

Neesika Neesika Neesika!


hip hip hoorah!


She is teh win!

I've provided facts, sources, reports, studies, statistics. I've laid out my argument step by step.

Yet I never received an actual answer. What American has been executed for political statements against the government?

But I have indeed learned your lesson: you are a terrible teacher.

Enjoy the victory parade. Your public is waiting.

Enjoy the victory parade. Your public is waiting.
Yup, and we see how you crashed and burned.

I really wish we could change the OP...I don't think the debate about 'democracy' has actually been the focus since then.

Done (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13760800&postcount=1).

Lol.

Done (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13760800&postcount=1).

You rock, thanks!

Yeah...cuz it's not like people in the US don't get put to death on trumped up charges.

Please provide a list of political dissidents put to death on trumped up charges in the US.

Why should I? I said 'trumped up charges' across the board, not merely political. And you'll find, if you actually research the issue, there is pretty much zilch evidence that Ochoa Sanchez was a 'political' anything. Let's not compare apples to oranges here, we're talking about wrongful executions, because you have failed to in any way back up your claim that he was a political prisoner.

After this list, you are on the hook, as you have always been, for providing a source for your claims about Ochoa-Sanchez. Get off your ass. There are certainly better arguments to be made for political repression in Cuba, and I can't believe you'd gnaw pointlessly at this bone for so long if you were actually interested in the subject.

Jesse Tafero (http://www.ejusa.org/grip/reasonabledoubt/Jesse%20J.%20Tafero.html)
Wayne Felker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellis_Wayne_Felker)
Cameron Willingham (http://www.chicagotribune.com/technology/chi-060502willingham,1,67945.story)
Carlos DeLuna (http://www.naacpldf.org/issues.aspx?subcontext=69)
Ruben Cantu (http://www.truthinjustice.org/cantu.htm)
Joseph O'Dell (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/case/cases/)
David Spence (http://archive.salon.com/politics2000/feature/2000/05/11/bush/index1.html)
Leo Jones (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-001218deathp,0,7889566.story?page=3)
Lena Baker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Baker)

This is not even to mention the long list (http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/Browse-Profiles.php) of people convicted for non-capital crimes who have been exonerated by groups like the Innocence Project (http://www.innocenceproject.org/) for 'trumped up charges'.

Now I know what you're going to say. Oh, well there's no absolute proof any of these people were innocent, despite the expert evidence suggesting otherwise. True. No absolutes. You don't get a retrial once you're dead. Nonetheless, what is important about these cases are the 'trumped up charges' which deliberately ignored or hid material facts about the possible innocence of the people sentenced to death.

Now, unless you can show me absolute proof of Ochoa Sanchez' innocence (not that I even believe you'll bother to provide any links or information at all, given your history), then we're pretty much on the same footing. Strong suspicions, but ultimately, legal executions carried out within the legal system. Whatever the grounds for the 'trumping up', be they a political falling out, out-and-out racial discrimination (already sourced), no matter which country is engaged in such egregious violations of fundamental justice, it should be taken to task for it.

Pretending that you alone are 'innocent' and all others you disagree with politically are guilty, is oddly familiar...

Your 'high' ground is non-existant.

Wiki background (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution)
Death Penalty Information Centre (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?&did=2238#also)