NationStates Jolt Archive

If Christ died as the redeemer and saviour for all of humanity, it would then follow that the sins of every person future, past and present would be washed away as a result of his death. If no one then has sin, how can anyone go to hell?

Considering that this is the 888,000th thread on the logic of Christianity, the premise of this discussion is false. There definitely is a hell.

If Christ died as the redeemer and saviour for all of humanity, it would then follow that the sins of every person both future, past and present would be washed away as a result of his death. If no one then has sin, how can anyone go to hell?

If Jesus truly died for our sins, wouldn't it be ungrateful of us not to commit them?

Considering that this is the 888,000th thread on the logic of Christianity, the premise of this discussion is false. There definitely is a hell.

Wait, you reject the premise and therefore the conclusion simply because there have been other threads of the logical aspects of Christianity. And then simply state with certainty hell exist? really? :confused:

The idea is that one can avoid hell if one is truly sorry for committing the sins and seeks forgiveness, not to avoid punishment, but because they feel bad or guilty for committing the sins. Basically, if you aren't a complete asshole, you can avoid hell, or at least that's how the idea goes.

Wait, you reject the premise and therefore the conclusion simply because there have been other threads of the logical aspects of Christianity. And then simply state with certainty hell exist? really? :confused:

Boy oh boy... many levels of hell as well it seems.

If Christ died as the redeemer and saviour for all of humanity, it would then follow that the sins of every person both future, past and present would be washed away as a result of his death. If no one then has sin, how can anyone go to hell?

I think the idea is that man has the free will to choose between heaven and hell. Before Jesus came, there supposedly was no heaven, or so I was always told.

Boy oh boy... many levels of hell as well it seems.

:p

This thread made my day. :)

*Sigh*

Its really very very basic. C'mon.

Christ died for humanity. Just like soldiers died for America in Vietnam, for example.

But that doesn't mean everyone accepted Christ's sacrifice as the only way to get to heaven. Just like many Americans abused the Vietnam vets when they got home. (Ok, bad parallel but you get the point).

Two steps:

I. Christ died for you - so that you can have eternal life.
II. (And most important) You make the choice to believe that.

Those that choose not to believe, have chosen to reject God's gift, and have chosen not to be saved from hell.

Those that choose to believe, have chosen to accept God's free gift and heaven.

Thats the separation point.

Really, its not that hard to understand.

______________________
CoN Lord Chancellor
Delegate of The Council of Narnia

I think the idea is that man has the free will to choose between heaven and hell. Before Jesus came, there supposedly was no heaven, or so I was always told.The heavens as Jesus's money shot . . . no there's a theology!

*Sigh*

Its really very very basic. C'mon.

Christ died for humanity. Just like soldiers died for America in Vietnam, for example.

But that doesn't mean everyone accepted Christ's sacrifice as the only way to get to heaven. Just like many Americans abused the Vietnam vets when they got home. (Ok, bad parallel but you get the point).

Two steps:

I. Christ died for you - so that you can have eternal life.
II. (And most important) You make the choice to believe that.

Those that choose not to believe, have chosen to reject God's gift, and have condemned themselves to hell.

Those that choose to believe, have chosen to accept God's free gift and heaven.

Thats the separation point.

Really, its not that hard to understand.

______________________
CoN Lord Chancellor
Delegate of The Council of Narnia
It says so right on the label.

Wait, you reject the premise and therefore the conclusion simply because there have been other threads of the logical aspects of Christianity. And then simply state with certainty hell exist? really? :confused:

Well, the whole idea was that this was hell.

Well, the whole idea was that this was hell.

lol. Apparently when it's late I not only fail to spell correctly, but to think as well(I'm blaming it on lack of sleep regardless of what the evidence suggests). :p

If Christ died as the redeemer and saviour for all of humanity, it would then follow that the sins of every person future, past and present would be washed away as a result of his death. If no one then has sin, how can anyone go to hell?

Umm, Christ's Sacrifice has the ability to wash away every sin, but not all sin is immediately revoked. I suggest you read the Gospels, so that you actually can know what you're talking about, rather than making random guesses based off of some things you heard.

Jesus provides Salvation, but He is quite clear that He does not provide to 'just anyone'. There are so many qualifications that are listed so many times, how you can ask such a question is beyond me, really.

If Jesus truly died for our sins, wouldn't it be ungrateful of us not to commit them?

Paul states that idea himself, and refutes it, as we have sinned quite enough (and in overflowing abundance). More sin is not needed, and indeed, it does not show gratitude for Salvation, to revel in damnation.

The idea is that one can avoid hell if one is truly sorry for committing the sins and seeks forgiveness, not to avoid punishment, but because they feel bad or guilty for committing the sins. Basically, if you aren't a complete asshole, you can avoid hell, or at least that's how the idea goes.

Umm, also the faith in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and Saviour of humanity, the Bible is quite clear that being a 'good person' is no qualification for Heaven. Indeed, Paul, one of the foremost theologians of Christianity came from a background of hunting down, and persecuting Christians. One does not achieve Heaven by 'being good' but through Christ's sacrifice alone.

I think the idea is that man has the free will to choose between heaven and hell. Before Jesus came, there supposedly was no heaven, or so I was always told.

Nothing can be conclusively speculated about the pre-Christ afterlife. Christian Theology centers itself around the idea that those Jews who (living in the pre-Christ world) waited, and had faith on the forthcoming Messiah would achieve Heaven after Christ's sacrifice, almost like retroactive forgiveness, and it makes sense if you follow Christian Theology in general which seems rather centered around... wait for it... the Christ figure, lol.

If Christ died as the redeemer and saviour for all of humanity, it would then follow that the sins of every person future, past and present would be washed away as a result of his death. If no one then has sin, how can anyone go to hell?

Another meta-issue with the thread name, even if Jesus' pardon was universal, and unconditional, Hell would indeed still exist, after all a warehouse doesn't blink out of existence merely because it is empty. Additionally, as an add on, everyone has sin, it's not that Jesus revokes all sin completely, He can, however, carry your share of the load, as it were. When you die, and God asks why He should let someone imperfect into His Eternal Perfection, Jesus will speak up for a Christian, who believes on the death, and resurrection of Jesus as the Messiah of humanity, he will vouche for their perfection, after all, it was their sins he bore at Calvary.

Nothing can be conclusively speculated about the pre-Christ afterlife. Christian Theology centers itself around the idea that those Jews who (living in the pre-Christ world) waited, and had faith on the forthcoming Messiah would achieve Heaven after Christ's sacrifice, almost like retroactive forgiveness, and it makes sense if you follow Christian Theology in general which seems rather centered around... wait for it... the Christ figure, lol.

There actually is conclusive speculation, most of it revolving around Sheol. Most christian sects accept the idea that pre-Christ death meant waiting in Sheol for Christ's first coming, or else hell for those who did not participate in the sacrifice of sheep and such, which merely covered the sin, rather than cleansing it. Upon Christ's ascent from hell (after his decent upon his death, although this point is controversial among various sects), Christ is believed to have cleansed those in Sheol and brought them into heaven, which is supposed to have existed previous to Christ's coming (since that's where God lives, eh?). The two people in the old testament whose names I can't recall because I don't care enough who are described as not dying but merely disappearing off the earth are believed by many sects to have ascended into heaven because they were just that awesome[ly faithful].

How can you imply that there is no Hell, I have been to Hell and back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%2C_Michigan

And not to mention this Hell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%2C_California
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%2C_Grand_Cayman

And then there is this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%2C_Norway

Which proves that Hell does indeed freeze over.

http://www.yr.no/place/Norway/Nord-Tr%c3%b8ndelag/Stj%c3%b8rdal/Hell/

Another meta-issue with the thread name, even if Jesus' pardon was universal, and unconditional, Hell would indeed still exist, after all a warehouse doesn't blink out of existence merely because it is empty. Additionally, as an add on, everyone has sin, it's not that Jesus revokes all sin completely, He can, however, carry your share of the load, as it were. When you die, and God asks why He should let someone imperfect into His Eternal Perfection, Jesus will speak up for a Christian, who believes on the death, and resurrection of Jesus as the Messiah of humanity, he will vouche for their perfection, after all, it was their sins he bore at Calvary.
So, God is like, the bouncer of Heaven, and Jesus is our Buddy with a backstage pass?

Umm, also the faith in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and Saviour of humanity, the Bible is quite clear that being a 'good person' is no qualification for Heaven. Indeed, Paul, one of the foremost theologians of Christianity came from a background of hunting down, and persecuting Christians. One does not achieve Heaven by 'being good' but through Christ's sacrifice alone.

Seconded. I know that some people aren't going to like this example, but Eric Cartman from South Park states correctly many times that he doesn't need to be a good person in order to get into heaven, but instead needs to believe in the saving power of Christ/Christian theology (which he does). Morality is merely a cherry on top, and useful if you want to get canonized after you die.

Hell was not created for people, first and foremost.

God does not "want" to send anyone to hell. It wasn't intended for them.

Hell is intended for Satan, his angels, and his followers.

However, while the sins have been paid for, it requires accepting that gift in order to reap the benefits. A person is covered by that if he "trusts in the LORD" which involves repentance (which results in a whole new lifestyle!).

Since you must choose one way or another (Christ or Satan), you become either a Christ follower or a Satan follower. Anyone who is not the former is the latter because he hasn't done his part.

Salvation is a COVENANT - a promise between two parties that involves full cooperation between both parties involved.

Just because a debt has been paid doesn't mean that it's being handed out door-to-door. Say you were my bosom friend and we agreed to bail each other out if times got rough. I need $20 to finish paying my rent, and you agreed to help me out if I needed it. However, if I don't go over and talk to you about the problem and borrow the money, the money is not just going to appear in my hand when the bill collectors come. I can sit around being lazy all I want, but in the end, it's fruitless because there's no way you're going to keep coming over and being like, "Hey, are times hard? Are you in dire need of $20?"

That example doesn't fit mirror-image-style to the concept of Christianity (since I know you will try to take it apart syllable by syllable like what most people attempt to do with the Bible when it must be approached in chapters, but preferrably books... it all goes back to hermeunitics and exegesis, concepts that an anti-intellectual generation refuses to delve into for the most part [it takes too much time...]), but I'm trying to explain the main idea.


In the end, Jesus and the Bible state that Satan, his angels, and his followers (either outright followers or people who rejected Christ and therefore became passive followers) are those for whom hell was created.



I can answer a lot of your Bible questions (I'm no expert for sure, but I'm getting my minor in Biblical Studies and am well-versed in apologetics and intellectual/logical concerns with Christianity) if you are genuinely curious and want to have a conversation. I won't hit you with a Bible or anything (I don't do that... especially over the Internet... too hard! hahaha...), I just honestly like having intellectual conversations.

Hope that helps somehow.

Say you were my bosom friend and we agreed to bail each other out if times got rough. I need $20 to finish paying my rent, and you agreed to help me out if I needed it. However, if I don't go over and talk to you about the problem and borrow the money, the money is not just going to appear in my hand when the bill collectors come. I can sit around being lazy all I want, but in the end, it's fruitless because there's no way you're going to keep coming over and being like, "Hey, are times hard? Are you in dire need of $20?"

Okay, at what point do I get to accept this deal?

I mean, I'm not getting bailed out so much as being punished if I don't accept the deal. Either I pay the $20 or the mafia's coming over to break my legs.

It's protection money.

There actually is conclusive speculation, most of it revolving around Sheol. Most christian sects accept the idea that pre-Christ death meant waiting in Sheol for Christ's first coming, or else hell for those who did not participate in the sacrifice of sheep and such, which merely covered the sin, rather than cleansing it. Upon Christ's ascent from hell (after his decent upon his death, although this point is controversial among various sects), Christ is believed to have cleansed those in Sheol and brought them into heaven, which is supposed to have existed previous to Christ's coming (since that's where God lives, eh?). The two people in the old testament whose names I can't recall because I don't care enough who are described as not dying but merely disappearing off the earth are believed by many sects to have ascended into heaven because they were just that awesome[ly faithful].

Well, the first was definitely Elijah, who ascended into heaven in a chariot of fire, and the second is the speculation that Moses did not die but ascended to heaven directly as well... there is no exact Biblical evidence for this - just the fact that the end of Deutoronomy says that he disappeared into the hills and presumably died there - the exact details ae apparently unknown.

So I'm assuming you are discussing heaven/hell in Jewish terms... although fictional (and quite political at that), I find Dante's The Inferno interesting in that it describes the devout Yahweh-followers before Christ who had died as being in a state of limbo until Christ ascended into heaven and collected them with Him. I think that is an interesting image, and also exemplifies the lack of a need for hell since the Messiah had not yet come into the world, thus there was no condemnation yet. Actually, there is no condemnation right now either, since that's supposed to come at the "end of time."

Those who do not accept Christ's sacrifice as one that DOES wash away these sins inevitably ends up apart from God forever.

If you wanna live your life here completely apart from God, you can live in suffering and torment for eternity just the same.

One does not achieve Heaven by 'being good' but through Christ's sacrifice alone.

Too bad there is no afterlife.

And the Christian God is more tyrannical and evil than the Christian Devil as far as I'm concerned. Luckily this is like comparing Sauron to Darth Vader.

Those who do not accept Christ's sacrifice as one that DOES wash away these sins inevitably ends up apart from God forever.

If you wanna live your life here completely apart from God, you can live in suffering and torment for eternity just the same.

Wow thanks, ain't that the decision - either I pay my respects to Il Capo di Tutti Frutti or my testicles are placed in the blender.

The Mafia works much the same way.

Where's Eliott Ness when you need him cos I only got knives in a gun fight here.

Okay, at what point do I get to accept this deal?

I mean, I'm not getting bailed out so much as being punished if I don't accept the deal. Either I pay the $20 or the mafia's coming over to break my legs.

It's protection money.


In order to understand this, you have to understand that there are some absolutes. It's a prerequisite to even implementing the fundamentals.

There is a yes and a no. It's like when your computer gives you the option to delete a file or not delete it - you can't click the spot in between "yes" and "no" and expect an alternate answer.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes to the Father [Yahweh] except through Me."

Christ spoke in absolutes. There is ONE way and ONE truth - it's not a buffet! You don't choose, you are chosen for.

I don't know what happens after death for certain. I don't know if there is some other chance or not, but that's a risk I personally am not willing to make! (just saying...)

And so that I don't totally appear like I dance around your question... when was this covenant made? Long before you or I was born - at the point when sin became part of the vocab and part of the lifestyle - there was this problem because there was sin (which separates a person from Yahweh because of His inability to sin or be in the presence of sin) and good works don't take away sins. Why would they? They might cover up its presence for a while, but it's still there. Because sin is carnal, it requires a blood sacrifice, and not just any "offering" (as it is called), but a flawless first-born (lambs are good, but there are some other options, as presented in Leviticus). Yikes! Talk about guilt! Because Yahweh didn't have to present an option to us (He could've just smited the world and started over) is evidence of love and true sacrifice. Since love involves sacrifice, I must also assert that I believe that those who say they "love" God and are "saved" yet haven't sacrificed a thing nor repented from their sins are not, by definition, "saved." But that's a new topic all together!

So, at this point in history, it's not like you can expect to be at the beginning - just like you can't separate yourself completely from family past. And you have "yes" or "no" at this point (actually... everyone had "yes" or "no" now that I think about it...). So you've got a deal that's been passed down because it applies to humanity, of which you and I are both a part.

That answer your question?

Too bad there is no afterlife.

And the Christian God is more tyrannical and evil than the Christian Devil as far as I'm concerned. Luckily this is like comparing Sauron to Darth Vader.

Hm. I'm sure you heard that from someone and haven't investigated it yourself. I hear that a lot from people, and it turns out they've never actually looked into it.

No afterlife? I am so glad that you bring up such pivotal conversation boosters!

Honestly, there's not much to say, which is of course why you say what you do. It's one of those posts that could either turn into some bloody brawl that gets all cruddy and emotional or it's dead in the water.

Just thought I should bring up the "emotional" side, because, while I haven't seen much yet, I'm sure you're going to get someone in here screaming OMG I LOVE JESUS AND HE LOVES YOU AND YOU NEED TO JUST LOVE HIM!!!!!!!!1111

They aren't worth arguing with either. Or even talking to. They just don't make sense... lol.

Hm. I'm sure you heard that from someone and haven't investigated it yourself.

Unfortunately I have been studying world religions and history for quite some time. I have analyzed the arguments for and against God's existence from historical, theological and philosophical perspectives. God simply does not need to exist. Claiming that he/she/it *needs* to be real in order to explain all of existence only adds another link onto a chain of infinite regress. In other words, Aquinas was wrong in his Causality / First Mover argument.

But yes, I openly confess that I enjoy engaging religious fanatics in debate.

Those that choose not to believe, have chosen to reject God's gift, and have chosen not to be saved from hell.

No amount of 'choice' was ever present in me being atheistic.

Those that choose not to believe, have chosen to reject God's gift, and have chosen not to be saved from hell.

Those that choose to believe, have chosen to accept God's free gift and heaven.

That's a false depiction of the issue, because there are really two separate issues here.

First, is there really such an offer? Does God really exist? Was Jesus His son? Did Jesus really die for our sins? Is there really a heaven and a hell?

Second, assuming that traditional Christianity is true, should I accept the offer?

I can believe in God without accepting Jesus's offer of salvation. I can not believe in God while still thinking that, if traditional Christianity were true, I would accept the offer.

That's a false depiction of the issue, because there are really two separate issues here.

First, is there really such an offer? Does God really exist? Was Jesus His son? Did Jesus really die for our sins? Is there really a heaven and a hell?

Second, assuming that traditional Christianity is true, should I accept the offer?

I can believe in God without accepting Jesus's offer of salvation. I can not believe in God while still thinking that, if traditional Christianity were true, I would accept the offer.

Well put, Soheran. For myself, I haven't found a good reason to believe in the existence of the Judeo-Christian god.

Even if I did, I'd feel very uncomfortable 'accepting Christ's sacrifice' as it's usually portrayed. I don't think the whole business reflects well on the character of YHWH at all.

There really logically cannot be a hell consistent with a benevolent God. Assuming hell is a punishment, an omnibenevolent God could never give an infinite punishment for a finite crime. He could also not have being a sceptic a crime worthy of punishment, especially eternal punishment where you do not get a second chance.

Well put, Soheran. For myself, I haven't found a good reason to believe in the existence of the Judeo-Christian god.

Even if I did, I'd feel very uncomfortable 'accepting Christ's sacrifice' as it's usually portrayed. I don't think the whole business reflects well on the character of YHWH at all.
I second that as well.
I also find the idea "You're with us or against us." idea pretty Bush-like, and not worship-worthy. Should I, a skeptic, be punished for being skepic? What's the use of free-will, if the only choice you have is eternal damnation and suffering, or with God? I find that véry offensive.
That's also a difference, ofcourse I can accept if a god like that would exist, but if I would worship it would be a totally different matter.

If Christ died as the redeemer and saviour for all of humanity, it would then follow that the sins of every person future, past and present would be washed away as a result of his death. If no one then has sin, how can anyone go to hell?

I know why, I know why there's a Hell for Christrians. Because God likes a good drama. He's the de facto creator of A&E.:p

choose not to believe[/COLOR], have chosen to reject God's gift, and have chosen not to be saved from hell.

Those that choose to believe, have chosen to accept God's free gift and heaven.

Thats the separation point.

Really, its not that hard to understand.

______________________
CoN Lord Chancellor
Delegate of The Council of Narnia

What is hard to understand of course is how can it be a free gift if it comes with conditions?

There really logically cannot be a hell consistent with a benevolent God. Assuming hell is a punishment, an omnibenevolent God could never give an infinite punishment for a finite crime. He could also not have being a sceptic a crime worthy of punishment, especially eternal punishment where you do not get a second chance.

Yeah exactly, which is why God does not punish.

Yeah exactly, which is why God does not punish.

The Catholic Encyclopedia would disagree with you...
There is a hell, i.e. all those who die in personal mortal sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), as enemies of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), and unworthy of eternal (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm) life, will be severely punished by God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) after death. On the nature (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm) of mortal sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), see SIN (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm); on the immediate beginning of punishment after death, see PARTICULAR JUDGMENT (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm). As to the fate (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05793a.htm) of those who die free from personal mortal sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), but in original sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm), see LIMBO (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm) (limbus parvulorum).

The existence (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05543b.htm) of hell is, of course, denied by all those who deny the existence of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608b.htm)or the immortality (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm) of the soul (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm). Thus among the Jew (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08399a.htm) the Sadducees (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13323a.htm), among the Gnostics (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm), the Seleucians (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13688c.htm), and in our own time (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm) Materialists (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10041b.htm), Pantheists (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11447b.htm), etc., deny the existence (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05543b.htm) of hell. But apart from these, if we abstract from the eternity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm) of the pains of hell, the doctrine (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05075b.htm) has never met any opposition worthy of mention.
Link to rest of article (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm)

*snip*

Do you not have your own words? It speaks of your submissive nature.

The Catholic Encyclopedia would disagree with you...


Heh well that's not suppriseing really, written as it was by an unbiased source huh!


Ohh and also, where it say the existance of hell is always denied by those who deny the existance of God. Wrong I do not deny God, I do deny the existance of hell though. Which makes me wonder how much else they have wrong in this encyclopedia?

A friend of mine has this theory that Apocalipse ALREADY happened in the middle ages (AKA the Black Death), and all the chosen ones have ALREADY gone to Heaven, which means all of us are the NOT-chosen, condemned to live here in this purgatory-like Earth.

Cool, huh?

Do you not have your own words? It speaks of your submissive nature.

Thank you. It doesn't come naturally, but I try.

Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Submitting before the authority of the spirit is wise AND recognizing that over the last two thousand years, these arguments have been had over and over again, for me to dismiss their experience and expertise would be fool hardy. Like buying a football team and then deciding that I will coach it myself... Just because you can do something doesn't make it the wisest choice, hiring a professional coach with a proven track record would be a better option. Regarding the arguments of those who came before us is likewise a better choice, those that forget the past are bound to repeat it.

A friend of mine has this theory that Apocalipse ALREADY happened in the middle ages (AKA the Black Death), and all the chosen ones have ALREADY gone to Heaven, which means all of us are the NOT-chosen, condemned to live here in this purgatory-like Earth.

Cool, huh?

Man there is a roleplaying game like that called 'The end' bloody good game as well.

The Catholic Encyclopedia would disagree with you...
There is a hell, i.e. all those who die in personal mortal sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), as enemies of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), and unworthy of eternal (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm) life, will be severely punished by God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) after death. On the nature (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm) of mortal sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), see SIN (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm); on the immediate beginning of punishment after death, see PARTICULAR JUDGMENT (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm). As to the fate (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05793a.htm) of those who die free from personal mortal sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), but in original sin (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm), see LIMBO (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm) (limbus parvulorum).

The existence (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05543b.htm) of hell is, of course, denied by all those who deny the existence of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608b.htm)or the immortality (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07687a.htm) of the soul (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm). Thus among the Jew (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08399a.htm) the Sadducees (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13323a.htm), among the Gnostics (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm), the Seleucians (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13688c.htm), and in our own time (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm) Materialists (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10041b.htm), Pantheists (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11447b.htm), etc., deny the existence (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05543b.htm) of hell. But apart from these, if we abstract from the eternity (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05551b.htm) of the pains of hell, the doctrine (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05075b.htm) has never met any opposition worthy of mention.
Link to rest of article (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm)

Didn't the Cathars challenge the concept of hell? I seem to recall that they did. But just to be sure, I'll check.

EDIT: Yes, the Cathars challenged the belief of a Hell after we die. And I think that they're a group under the Catholic Church worthy of mentioning amongs those you cited.

Cathar Theology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathar#Theology)

Excerpt:
The God found in the Old Testament had nothing to do with the God of Love known to Cathars. The Old Testament God had created the world as a prison, and demanded from the "prisoners" fearful obedience and worship. This false god was in reality — claimed the Cathari — a blind usurper who under the most false pretexts, tormented and murdered those whom he called, all too possessively, "his children". The false god was, by the Cathari, called Rex Mundi, or The King of the World. This exegesis upon the Old Testament was not unique to the Cathars: it echoes views found in earlier Gnostic movements and foreshadows later critical voices. The dogma of the Trinity and the sacrament of the Eucharist, among others, were rejected as abominations. Belief in metempsychosis, or the transmigration of souls, resulted in the rejection of Hell and Purgatory, which were and are dogmas of the Catholic Faith. For the Cathars, this world was the only hell — there was nothing to fear after death, save perhaps rebirth.

A friend of mine has this theory that Apocalipse ALREADY happened in the middle ages (AKA the Black Death), and all the chosen ones have ALREADY gone to Heaven, which means all of us are the NOT-chosen, condemned to live here in this purgatory-like Earth.

Cool, huh?


Cool? Yes. Good theology? No.

Well, I for one don't believe any self respecting God who claimed to love man unconditionally enough to sacrifice his one and only son, and by proxy his own mortal form, for the Salvation of mankind to be willing to condemn his greatest creation to an eternity of acid rain, choking smoke, and burning flame. But then again I also find it difficult to believe that there is a perfect and holy invisible kingdom hidden somewhere beyond billions of frozen air molecules thousands of feet up in the sky. So maybe I'm already biased against the notion that there is an unholy imperfect kingdom underneath us where heathens like myself will suffer for all eternity.

PS: LOL @ taking the names and concepts of traditional European pagan folk lore and adapting them to fit your otherwise boring religion in order to frighten the skeptical populace of the European Dark Ages into submission.

Hell you say? I believe it's appropriately spelled Hel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_%28location%29), and we most certainly had first dibs on the title.

/bow

Thank you. It doesn't come naturally, but I try.

Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Submitting before the authority of the spirit is wise AND recognizing that over the last two thousand years, these arguments have been had over and over again, for me to dismiss their experience and expertise would be fool hardy. Like buying a football team and then deciding that I will coach it myself... Just because you can do something doesn't make it the wisest choice, hiring a professional coach with a proven track record would be a better option. Regarding the arguments of those who came before us is likewise a better choice, those that forget the past are bound to repeat it.

Submitting blindly and belife in ideas that defy logic though seems a waste of a God given mind.

God gave us minds capable of reasoning, why would God then require us to follow dogmatic rules that make no sense, and to belive without question?

Does God love us?

Why would a loving , offer a choice and then punish those that do not chose God? Why whould an all oving God only furnish each one of us with only one chance to reach God?

That makes no sense to me. This vision of God is more like a schoolyard bully, it is not the version of God I belive in.

Thank you. It doesn't come naturally, but I try.

Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Submitting before the authority of the spirit is wise AND recognizing that over the last two thousand years, these arguments have been had over and over again, for me to dismiss their experience and expertise would be fool hardy. Like buying a football team and then deciding that I will coach it myself... Just because you can do something doesn't make it the wisest choice, hiring a professional coach with a proven track record would be a better option. Regarding the arguments of those who came before us is likewise a better choice, those that forget the past are bound to repeat it.

Is this really your reason for belief, because others have believed for a long time.

Old beliefs are correct merely because they're old?

Odd that you're not more supportive of the slave trade given you're so apt to be a slave yourself. After all, it was believed for more than two thousand years that slavery was natural.

Render unto Caesar, for he too was a king and no one should rebel against supposed kings, no one should taste freedom.

I do hope you're not American.

DEDIT: Yes, the Cathars challenged the belief of a Hell after we die. And I think that they're a group under the Catholic Church worthy of mentioning amongs those you cited.? Weren't they methodically exterminated by the Catholic church in the 13th or 14th century?

? Weren't they methodically exterminated by the Catholic church in the 13th or 14th century?

Yes, they were. The only reason I brought them up was to add something to Balderdash's post. Balder mentioned groups that challeneged the Catholic belief in a Hell. The Cathars were among those.

i for one believe that only incredibly evil people (hitler, stalin, saddam) go to hell, unless they repent their sins.

Kylamus: Well, that's kinda like cake or death. Honestly, I would choose cake.


Even hell has doughnuts.

God does love you. This is HOW God loves you;
He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

The world is already condemned to hell-fire, and all of us with it, Jesus is God's rope to get out of it... God's love is why he sent the rope even though the rope gets burned while saving us.

We can choose the rope or not. It's big enough for everyone.

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes." (Luke 12:47)

Come on Balderdash, your Master condoned slavery, don't you?

I think the idea is that man has the free will to choose between heaven and hell. Before Jesus came, there supposedly was no heaven, or so I was always told.

Well, that's kinda like cake or death. Honestly, I would choose cake.

...
Does God love us?

Why would a loving , offer a choice and then punish those that do not chose God? Why whould an all oving God only furnish each one of us with only one chance to reach God?

That makes no sense to me. This vision of God is more like a schoolyard bully, it is not the version of God I belive in.


God does love you. This is HOW God loves you;
He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

The world is already condemned to hell-fire, and all of us with it, Jesus is God's rope to get out of it... God's love is why he sent the rope even though the rope gets burned while saving us.

We can choose the rope or not. It's big enough for everyone.

God does love you. This is HOW God loves you;
He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

The world is already condemned to hell-fire, and all of us with it, Jesus is God's rope to get out of it... God's love is why he sent the rope even though the rope gets burned while saving us.

We can choose the rope or not. It's big enough for everyone.

As far as I can tell, all that Jesus managed to do was create a religion and a bunch of wars along with it.

God does love you. This is HOW God loves you;
He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

The world is already condemned to hell-fire, and all of us with it, Jesus is God's rope to get out of it... God's love is why he sent the rope even though the rope gets burned while saving us.

We can choose the rope or not. It's big enough for everyone.
Why did God condemn all of us to hell? Is it all because of that Adam and Eve thing?? Do wé, complete innocent people who have no affilation with Adam or Eve have to suffer under thére actions?? Damn, talk about holding a grudge, that's completly idiotic. That's not love! You either have the choice to suffer for eternity, or you have to obey God and do what he says. It's either with him, or against him, that doesn't make any sense at all.
Heh well that's not suppriseing really, written as it was by an unbiased source huh!


Ohh and also, where it say the existance of hell is always denied by those who deny the existance of God. Wrong I do not deny God, I do deny the existance of hell though. Which makes me wonder how much else they have wrong in this encyclopedia?
Remember that YOU are a biased source as well, explain to me why that Encyclopedia would be wrong, or why you would be right.

Submitting blindly and belife in ideas that defy logic though seems a waste of a God given mind.

God gave us minds capable of reasoning, why would God then require us to follow dogmatic rules that make no sense, and to belive without question?

Does God love us?

Why would a loving , offer a choice and then punish those that do not chose God? Why whould an all oving God only furnish each one of us with only one chance to reach God?

That makes no sense to me. This vision of God is more like a schoolyard bully, it is not the version of God I belive in.

Blasphemy. God loves you. He sacrificed for you and made you with the free will to choose your own fate, and so you should be gracious enough that you choose the fate he wants for you in order to avoid eternal flame. This is despite the fact that an omniscient entity already knew what your choice would be long before your world existed and therefore chose where you going to go anyway. You have free will, but you're still part His divine plan. There are no contradictions here. Look, it's plain and simple, and everyone should blindly accept it if they are well in spirit and heart.

/sarcasm

God does love you. This is HOW God loves you.

..and if you dare not love God back...

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6)

Lovely!

God does love you.

*snip*

The world is already condemned to hell-fire, and all of us with itOh, the love.. I feel it, she burns.

Why not simply not condemn the world to hell, rather than a ridiculously convoluted scheme that would put tax evaders to shame?
"Hmm, let's condemn humanity to hell, then incarnate to earth and get killed so I can save them all from the hell I just condemned them to. But only if they recognize my brilliance without me providing enough evidence for them to base a decision on."
That's not love, that's playing games with people's mind and feelings. As an explanation that makes a lot more sense; it's what an eternity of boredom might bring me too as well.

The idea is that one can avoid hell if one is truly sorry for committing the sins and seeks forgiveness, not to avoid punishment, but because they feel bad or guilty for committing the sins.

So your saying that if someone doesn't believe in Christ, thinks about the bible logically( which rips it to shreds, parts of it) so he doesn't believe it, doesn't go to church, and sins, that he can go to heaven if he feels bad about it? I live in a very church based society and that is the opposite of what I've heard. I am agnostic and agree with Soviestan.

So god... is omnipotent and omni sapient...and omnivorous.

He created me, knowing I was not going to believe in him, and thus I was going to Hell...

So he created me to keep me all confused and ignorant and then punish me for all eternity....

Not cool... not cool at all.

How can he be all loving and benevolent when he created so many people to send them to hell?

God Is Satire Epitomized.

So god... is omnipotent and omni sapient...and omnivorous.

He created me, knowing I was not going to believe in him, and thus I was going to Hell...

So he created me to keep me all confused and ignorant and then punish me for all eternity....

Not cool... not cool at all.

How can he be all loving and benevolent when he created so many people to send them to hell?

Well, I for one don't believe any self respecting God who claimed to love man unconditionally enough to sacrifice his one and only son, and by proxy his own mortal form, for the Salvation of mankind to be willing to condemn his greatest creation to an eternity of acid rain, choking smoke, and burning flame. But then again I also find it difficult to believe that there is a perfect and holy invisible kingdom hidden somewhere beyond billions of frozen air molecules thousands of feet up in the sky. So maybe I'm already biased against the notion that there is an unholy imperfect kingdom underneath us where heathens like myself will suffer for all eternity.

PS: LOL @ taking the names and concepts of traditional European pagan folk lore and adapting them to fit your otherwise boring religion in order to frighten the skeptical populace of the European Dark Ages into submission.

Hell you say? I believe it's appropriately spelled Hel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_%28location%29), and we most certainly had first dibs on the title.

/bow

Congratulations I agree wholeheartedly!

"Hmm, let's condemn humanity to hell, then incarnate to earth and get killed so I can save them all from the hell I just condemned them to. But only if they recognize my brilliance without me providing enough evidence for them to base a decision on."
That, indeed, sounds incredibly wierd. But ofcourse, then the ye' ol' cop-out comes: "Don't worry, it's aaaaall just part of a plan wich logic we can never ever understand anyway!" wich comes with it's own logical inconcistencies wich lots of people simply ignore.

? Weren't they methodically exterminated by the Catholic church in the 13th or 14th century?

Yes and so were several thousand other people who refused the Christian religion and decided to comtinue their own religions underground, in the end getting stabbed, shot, persecuted, tortured, and mainly killed in the name of a forgiving and loving god? I have some questions about that.:confused:

God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising,
which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody],
to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark
room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules,
and who *smiles all the time*.
-- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)

Is this really your reason for belief, because others have believed for a long time.

I didn't say I believe because others have believed for a long time. I said I consider their arguments and positions.

Old beliefs are correct merely because they're old?

Most definitely not. And I never suggested otherwise.

Odd that you're not more supportive of the slave trade given you're so apt to be a slave yourself. After all, it was believed for more than two thousand years that slavery was natural.

Render unto Caesar, for he too was a king and no one should rebel against supposed kings, no one should taste freedom.

Straman much?


I do hope you're not American.

:rolleyes:

*snip*

Post 61 awaits.

:rolleyes:

There was a point - no taxation without representation.

Remember that YOU are a biased source as well, explain to me why that Encyclopedia would be wrong, or why you would be right.

Yes that is true, but I am not a religious body compling dogma myself to show how true the dogma of my church is.

The Catholic church would be better served getting non catholics writting such stuff about them.

As to right and wrong, we are talking about a thing for which there is not one shred of objective evidance, in which case every and all ideas are valid.

If Christ died as the redeemer and saviour for all of humanity, it would then follow that the sins of every person future, past and present would be washed away as a result of his death. If no one then has sin, how can anyone go to hell?

Oh shut up you tired old troll.

EDIT: Sorry about that, Soviestan. I was drunk.
Someone has to start the threads, and I'm keenly aware of how bad I am at that.

Talk to Christians about heaven. Most of them actually believe in it.

Heaven is something people want to believe in. An orgasm which lasts forever. A beautiful happy thing which doesn't make you feel inadequate. Dammit, I want to believe in heaven, but wanting is not enough. Decades of drug abuse have taught me that.

Hell is some kind of tacked-on rubbish invented to address dualism. It's an ad hoc antithesis to heaven, which wasn't necessary until people actually started living by the dictates of a religion which promised them heaven, and started questioning where their customer loyalty points were. It's pure politics, pure tactics, addressed to those who don't find Heaven plausible. Some at least of them are radical pessimists, who can believe in ultimate Evil but not ultimate Good.

And it is cruel, and brutal, and damns any who believe in it to my own personal hell: assholes who aren't worth talking to.

Yes that is true, but I am not a religious body compling dogma myself to show how true the dogma of my church is.

The Catholic church would be better served getting non catholics writting such stuff about them.

As to right and wrong, we are talking about a thing for which there is not one shred of objective evidance, in which case every and all ideas are valid.
True, and so are the ideas of the Catholic Church, or any other. Problem is as well, that we are talking about reality here. We're not talking about ideas and morals, but about a place that would exist outside someone's mind that exists or not exists whatever someone thinks. What I mean with that, is that opinions don't matter: it either exists, or it does not exist, no matter what someone thinks or beleives.

More succinctly: you can talk to me about your idea of heaven all you like. Talk to me about your idea of hell, and I want $300 an hour to listen to your problems. (Psychiatrists' rates.)

Oh, the love.. I feel it, she burns.

Why not simply not condemn the world to hell, rather than a ridiculously convoluted scheme that would put tax evaders to shame?
"Hmm, let's condemn humanity to hell, then incarnate to earth and get killed so I can save them all from the hell I just condemned them to. But only if they recognize my brilliance without me providing enough evidence for them to base a decision on."
That's not love, that's playing games with people's mind and feelings. As an explanation that makes a lot more sense; it's what an eternity of boredom might bring me too as well.

Convoluted scheme? Actually it's explicitly simple.

Let's say I have a child, if that child falls into a hole, I throw her rope to help her get out. If she's an adult and chooses to stay in the hole instead of climbing the rope, well that's what I get for giving her freewill. You would have God create a world with no holes, but the children are capable of digging the holes themselves, holes that waren't in the original plans. Thats the problem with freewill, those that came before us altered the world environment, the original creation is barely recognizable now.

Think what would happen if a MMORPG had a world environment that showed permanent damage and creeps that didn't respawn, those that start late won't have the same game play as those that came first, will they?

Convoluted scheme? Actually it's explicitly simple.

Let's say I have a child, if that child falls into a hole, I throw her rope to help her get out. If she's an adult and chooses to stay in the hole instead of climbing the rope, well that's what I get for giving her freewill. You would have God create a world with no holes, but the children are capable of digging the holes themselves, holes that waren't in the original plans. Thats the problem with freewill, those that came before us altered the world environment, the original creation is barely recognizable now.

Think what would happen if a MMORPG had a world environment that showed permanent damage and creeps that didn't respawn, those that start late won't have the same game play as those that came first, will they?

If god is all powerfull and all knowing he should had known we were going to dig holes. What an awful father lets his son fall in a hole if he KNOWS its going to happen and he is POWERFULL enough to prevent it?

True, and so are the ideas of the Catholic Church, or any other. Problem is as well, that we are talking about reality here. We're not talking about ideas and morals, but about a place that would exist outside someone's mind that exists or not exists whatever someone thinks. What I mean with that, is that opinions don't matter: it either exists, or it does not exist, no matter what someone thinks or beleives.

Also true. So if we have no objective evidance, then we are left with a kind of strange logic with which we must make up our own minds.

This logic suggests that a loving God would not create us with the free will to choose, and then punish us for our free choices. Sure you would punish your children for there transgressions, but you would not punish them eternaly, and you would offer them endless chances would you not?

It's like handing my son a lolly, and then saying, you can lick this if that is your will, but if you do you are grounded forever.(in fact hell is surly worse than a groundeing) That is not a free choice that is what we call a threat.

If god is all powerfull and all knowing he should had known we were going to dig holes. What an awful father lets his son fall in a hole if he KNOWS its going to happen and he is POWERFULL enough to prevent it?

You assume there is a hole.

There's a funny thing with nicotine addiction, one of the excuses for not quitting cigarettes is: I feel anxious without a cigarette. Yet it's the addiction to nicotine that makes you anxious, you'd likely be no more, and probably a lot less anxious without smoking.

Religion is the equivalent of your parents making you smoke at 4 years old, if they never did, you'd never miss it. Of course, your peers might smoke, might tell you how great it is.

Fact is, if you never knew of cigarettes, you'd never miss them.

Christian dogma assumes there is a hole...not me

If Christ died as the redeemer and saviour for all of humanity, it would then follow that the sins of every person future, past and present would be washed away as a result of his death. If no one then has sin, how can anyone go to hell?

If you read the bible, there are some things you have to do.
Acts 2:38: Then Peter said unto them repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and ye shall recieve the gift of the holyghost.

Quite simply you have to accpet Jesus and do what was alyed out in the bible and establish and keep a relationship with him. If you don't, the bible says that Jesus will say "I knew you not" and you don't get to go to heavan.

Also true. So if we have no objective evidance, then we are left with a kind of strange logic with which we must make up our own minds.

This logic suggests that a loving God would not create us with the free will to choose, and then punish us for our free choices. Sure you would punish your children for there transgressions, but you would not punish them eternaly, and you would offer them endless chances would you not?

It's like handing my son a lolly, and then saying, you can lick this if that is your will, but if you do you are grounded forever.(in fact hell is surly worse than a groundeing) That is not a free choice that is what we call a threat.
And that is indeed something wich I agree with ;)
Convoluted scheme? Actually it's explicitly simple.

Let's say I have a child, if that child falls into a hole, I throw her rope to help her get out. If she's an adult and chooses to stay in the hole instead of climbing the rope, well that's what I get for giving her freewill. You would have God create a world with no holes, but the children are capable of digging the holes themselves, holes that waren't in the original plans. Thats the problem with freewill, those that came before us altered the world environment, the original creation is barely recognizable now.

Think what would happen if a MMORPG had a world environment that showed permanent damage and creeps that didn't respawn, those that start late won't have the same game play as those that came first, will they?
If God is omni-potent, he would've known about aaall of that in the first place. The problem is that your analogy doesn't depict apperant reality. Apperantly the 2 first individuals made mistakes, and where punished for it, fine enough. But the problem is that aaaaaall other individuals who have nothing to do with the first 2 all suffer even wórse from those 2 mistakes, because they're by default codemned to eternal suffering and pain. We have free will, but dáre to choose something God doesn't approve of. That's not love, that's a sadistic game.

If Christ died as the redeemer and saviour for all of humanity, it would then follow that the sins of every person future, past and present would be washed away as a result of his death. If no one then has sin, how can anyone go to hell?

You have to admit blame and consciously not sin anymore to avoid hell. If you don't take responsibility for your actions and continue to do things which, if you examine them, really hurt others and society, then you go to hell.

That's Catholic doctrine in a nutshell, anyhow.

Some believe they're saved no matter what because of Christ's sacrifice.

The Calvinists whom I had encountered on here years back had basically said they're either Elect or not, and if they are Elect they can do whatever they want because they're saved no matter what. The one in particular I am thinking of took every opportunity to be a cruel, vicious, vice-riddled person to others and I only hope he was correct in his assumption he was one of the Elect.

Those that choose not to believe, have chosen to reject God's gift, and have chosen not to be saved from hell.


WOAH, ok I'm sorry, i dont mean to rain on your Christianity parade, i'm all for 'different people - different beliefs' But it's the age old arguement that Christians are suppose to be forgiving caring people? Yet youve basically just told us 'non believers' that we are going to hell. And its our choice.

Firstly i dont believe in Hell, or heaven for that matter although id like to believe in heaven but unfortunately i wont know til i get there.
Secondly, im not a bad person and never have done anything bad in my life, not intentionally anyway. So even if i didnt believe in God, why should i be told that ill be going to hell because of it? All these Christians who preach about not doing the wrong thing, but they have no problem telling other people how bad they are for not living their lifes as Christians think they should or else they will go to hell. No wonder im an Atheist.

Considering that this is the 888,000th thread on the logic of Christianity, the premise of this discussion is false. There definitely is a hell.

And as always, if you're not interested in the discussion, no one is bending you over the back of the couch and forcing you to participate in it.

This entire debate is stupid. Its stupid ridicule people for having faith. Its stupid to ridicule those that don't. Besides science is going prove everyone wrong...even those who think they follow it closely.

Post 61 awaits.


I had no intention of responding to post 61. What did you want me to say? You quoted the scripture, it says it for me. Obviously you don't like the conclusion, but it is the conclusion all the same.

But since you mention it, let’s put your quote into context for perspective.

John 15:1-11
I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

Clearly that confirms both the existence of Hell, AND that Jesus warns even Christians that they have to abide in him, but it also tells us that God doesn't want us to end up in Hell, he wants us to abide in his Son and in that way we may find Joy and that it may be full, Hell is not the objective of existence.

*Sigh*

Its really very very basic. C'mon.

Christ died for humanity. Just like soldiers died for America in Vietnam, for example.

But that doesn't mean everyone accepted Christ's sacrifice as the only way to get to heaven. Just like many Americans abused the Vietnam vets when they got home. (Ok, bad parallel but you get the point).

Two steps:

I. Christ died for you - so that you can have eternal life.
II. (And most important) You make the choice to believe that.

Those that choose not to believe, have chosen to reject God's gift, and have chosen not to be saved from hell.

Those that choose to believe, have chosen to accept God's free gift and heaven.

Thats the separation point.

Really, its not that hard to understand.

______________________
CoN Lord Chancellor
Delegate of The Council of Narnia

Exceeeeept, as I understand it, there is recognition that not everyone knows Christ and that that is no bar to heaven....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuous_pagan

From my understanding, to be barred from heaven for non-belief you had to be exposed to the Christian message, KNOW that it was true, and subsequently reject it.

I would imagine that atheists, agnostics, and practitioners of other religions do not KNOW that it is true and reject it -- by definition, they believe (and may be correct, for all we know) that Christianity is false, and therefore reject it.

WOAH, ok I'm sorry, i dont mean to rain on your Christianity parade, i'm all for 'different people - different beliefs' But it's the age old arguement that Christians are suppose to be forgiving caring people? Yet youve basically just told us 'non believers' that we are going to hell. And its our choice.

Firstly i dont believe in Hell, or heaven for that matter although id like to believe in heaven but unfortunately i wont know til i get there.
Secondly, im not a bad person and never have done anything bad in my life, not intentionally anyway. So even if i didnt believe in God, why should i be told that ill be going to hell because of it? All these Christians who preach about not doing the wrong thing, but they have no problem telling other people how bad they are for not living their lifes as Christians think they should or else they will go to hell. No wonder im an Atheist.

Woah!! That's not fair. Not all Christians damn everyone to hell. As a Christian I do not pretend to know God's thoughts. In fact I would not be surprised on who he decides to take into heaven. Since he is infallible then who am I to judge anyone? I hate it when all Christians get blamed for the "extreme", overbearing Christians that are always in everyone's face.

Since you must choose one way or another (Christ or Satan), you become either a Christ follower or a Satan follower. Anyone who is not the former is the latter because he hasn't done his part.

So, because im not a Christ follower then i must be a Satan follower?
That is insane!

And im sorry i dont want ot affend anyone, feel free to slaughter me for anything i say here, afterall, im not directing this at you, its purely just my beliefs liek these are yours and youre free to believe anything you like. But ive just never heard anyone say anything like this before because i dont have religious friends nor was a brought up in a religious environment.
But what you have just said has totally blown me away. How can someone think like that? I dont believe in God OR Satan. Is that allowed? Cant i just believe in what i want to believe in??? Or is freedom of choice against Christianity belief?

Woah!! That's not fair. Not all Christians damn everyone to hell. As a Christian I do not pretend to know God's thoughts. In fact I would not be surprised on who he decides to take into heaven. Since he is infallible then who am I to judge anyone? I hate it when all Christians get blamed for the "extreme", overbearing Christians that are always in everyone's face.
He says about himself that he's infallible, that's pretty biased and that's why I doubt it. Is there anything wrong with doubting what God would apperantly do? What's wrong with (healthy) skepticism?
Clearly that confirms both the existence of Hell, AND that Jesus warns even Christians that they have to abide in him, but it also tells us that God doesn't want us to end up in Hell, he wants us to abide in his Son and in that way we may find Joy and that it may be full, Hell is not the objective of existence.
So why doesn't he just keep us out of Hell instead of applying conditions?

I am currently an agnostic (sometimes atheist). I am unsure what I should believe (do NOT even think of trying to convert me right now, though) due to many scientific and biblical reasons (including the conflictions in the bible, but then again, all books have mistakes). I am curious though: If one was at one point an atheist but later becomes a Christian again, are they spared from hell provided the conversion is legitimate? I also have to ask another serious question: Whether or not you believe the bible is the word of god, let's say it's not for this scenario, how do you know there is a god and if Christianity is the right path?

Woah!! That's not fair. Not all Christians damn everyone to hell. As a Christian I do not pretend to know God's thoughts. In fact I would not be surprised on who he decides to take into heaven. Since he is infallible then who am I to judge anyone? I hate it when all Christians get blamed for the "extreme", overbearing Christians that are always in everyone's face.

Im sorry if i worded it wrong or harshly, but i was just commenting back on someones elses comment about 'people not believing in God go to hell'

I know not all Christians preach and not all are overbearing but the majority i have come across do. I may be an Atheist but im not an asshole, i believe if you want to have a God or not is up to you. No one else can tell you otherwise. But to be told im going to hell because im not a believer is also completely unfair. What ever happened to acceptance? I thought that Christians were all about that, but most of them dont accept anything but their own thoughts. *most of them, not all.

What is hard to understand of course is how can it be a free gift if it comes with conditions?

Anyone here ever get a car for their 16th birthday?

You must keep up the insurance
You must not drink and drive or I take it away
If you get bagged for speeding, I take it away...

:-D

If God is omni-potent, he would've known about aaall of that in the first place.
Yes, of course. And I'm sure he had Jesus in mind even then. The world was created by him.

The problem is that your analogy doesn't depict apperant reality. Apperantly the 2 first individuals made mistakes, and where punished for it, fine enough. But the problem is that aaaaaall other individuals who have nothing to do with the first 2 all suffer even wórse from those 2 mistakes, because they're by default codemned to eternal suffering and pain. We have free will, but dáre to choose something God doesn't approve of. That's not love, that's a sadistic game.

It's funny that you said it doesn't depict apparent reality. Because the exact opposite is more true. Your desire seems to be for a world that works like a video game, it is reset for every player, the world would never be permanently changed by the actions of individual players.

That is NOT observable in reality around us though is it. Reality is the world has scars of things done previously. Our forefathers scared it and we scare it for those that come after us. Existence for those that come after us will be permanently altered by the choices we make now. Reality says your desire for a non-changeable world is the fantasy, not the description the scripture makes of the world.

*snip*

1 Peter 2:13 - Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men.

1 Peter 2:18 - Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Come on Balderdash, slavery or what?

You'd have been a great tobacco farmer.

True, and so are the ideas of the Catholic Church, or any other. Problem is as well, that we are talking about reality here. We're not talking about ideas and morals, but about a place that would exist outside someone's mind that exists or not exists whatever someone thinks. What I mean with that, is that opinions don't matter: it either exists, or it does not exist, no matter what someone thinks or beleives.

Anti-solipsism. The object exists without the observer.

Er, it's a strong word, but ... isn't that rather moronic? Like, so existentially stupid that any rational criticism must fail for lack of agreed common terms?

1 Peter 2:13 - Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men.

1 Peter 2:18 - Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Come on Balderdash, slavery or what?

You'd have been a great tobacco farmer.

Quoting the Bible to believers is unchivalrous. Please restrain yourself from strangling the opposition with their own intestines.

Hey guys, first post ever but I found this topic quite interesting. For the hell question, I'm not going to bother so much but pretty much if you want to break it down into the roughest terms possible, you have a very simple equation.

Okay, lets say, Christianity is real, if you do the whole thing, and it turns out that it is, you are going to heaven. If you don't become a Christian or accept Jesus, and it is real, well your screwed and you are going to hell.

Situtation 2: Christianity is wrong, you do it, well you've lived a morally good life and I think thats good. Lets say you didn't, well you pretty much did everything in life without punishment, yay for you.

This is the roughest example that is commonly used, and its a terrible one but you kinda get the idea. Christians don't use this idea because many critics will say that Christians are forcing their religion upon them, and that is a big problem with society.


side note, I was reading in revelations and this came up in my bible youth group, maybe someone knows here?: Two judges are suppose to come when Jesus comes or did *side topic, don't want to get into it* and it says they were the only two people that did not die physically, but were taken up into heaven by God. Jesus is the only one to go to heaven without dying, but he isn't one of the Judges. Anyone have any ideas and some proof to look over to back it?

1 Peter 2:13 - Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men.

1 Peter 2:18 - Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Come on Balderdash, slavery or what?

You'd have been a great tobacco farmer.

Point of interest: it doesn't actually say that owning slaves is a good thing, just what you should do if you happen to be a slave owned by someone else.

Blasphemy. God loves you. He sacrificed for you and made you with the free will to choose your own fate, and so you should be gracious enough that you choose the fate he wants for you in order to avoid eternal flame. This is despite the fact that an omniscient entity already knew what your choice would be long before your world existed and therefore chose where you going to go anyway. You have free will, but you're still part His divine plan. There are no contradictions here. Look, it's plain and simple, and everyone should blindly accept it if they are well in spirit and heart.

/sarcasm

Well...
I can tell you that sticking your hand into a garbage disposal is a terrible idea, and describe how it will hurt you if you do so....

but if you choose to do it anyway, who's to blame for your mangled hand?

Anyone here ever get a car for their 16th birthday?

You must keep up the insurance
You must not drink and drive or I take it away
If you get bagged for speeding, I take it away...

:-D

Then that is not a free gift is it.

Quoting the Bible to believers is unchivalrous. Please restrain yourself from strangling the opposition with their own intestines.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn289/RhynoD2/ug0e6194-87c.gif

Not that anyone will get the reference, but I made it anyways.

Yes, of course. And I'm sure he had Jesus in mind even then. The world was created by him.
That's where the logical inconsistencies start.

It's funny that you said it doesn't depict apparent reality. Because the exact opposite is more true. Your desire seems to be for a world that works like a video game, it is reset for every player, the world would never be permanently changed by the actions of individual players.
Ofcourse the world is affected by every individual, but new individuals have NOTHING to do with the mistakes or errors made by previous individuals and should not be judged upon them. That wouldn't make sense now would it? Someone makes a mistake, a big one, gets a son, and then that son gets judged by the mistake from it's father even though he had 0.00 to do with that mistake. That does not make sense, and is incredibly cruel.
Anti-solipsism. The object exists without the observer.

Er, it's a strong word, but ... isn't that rather moronic? Like, so existentially stupid that any rational criticism must fail for lack of agreed common terms?
I don't understand what you're trying to say, for example the earth existed before I did, and will exist after I die. That would, apperantly, be the same with Hell then, it exists before I lived, that's obvious ofcourse because apperantly other people who lived long before me went there, and it will exist after me because more people live after I die.
Btw, thanks, I never knew a proper word to describe that, now I do :)

1 Peter 2:13 - Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men.

1 Peter 2:18 - Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Come on Balderdash, slavery or what?

You'd have been a great tobacco farmer.

No, I would have let all the slaves go free. Perhaps I would have been a great slave though, who knows. Thanks giving for that though, there but by the grace of God go I.

Point of interest: it doesn't actually say that owning slaves is a good thing, just what you should do if you happen to be a slave owned by someone else.

Indeed - we all know what we should do as slaves, it's ordained from on high.

Know our place, love our master, abide with thee.

I'm not really bothered with arguing over the existence of God, what I oppose is the idea that the only real point of my life is to love a God that placed me here for the sole purpose of loving him.

There's plenty of Mafia bosses who will offer me such protection.

I can't really see the difference except, aside from my weakness, I can choose to leave a Mafia Don's domain - I have no such choice under God, heaven or hell.

If Christ died as the redeemer and saviour for all of humanity, it would then follow that the sins of every person future, past and present would be washed away as a result of his death. If no one then has sin, how can anyone go to hell?

Hey moron, try actually reading the Bible in detail before you ask these questions... You will often times find the answer without having to make internet questions geared to attack Christianity.

But since I'm in a semi-indulgent mood, I'll give you a basic rundown. Yes, Christ died for the sins of the world and yes, it's for everyone. However, like any free gift, man can choose to reject it. The difference is, man cannot choose to accept it... Faith in Christ (which is what saves you) is a gift granted from Christ himself, the Bible states that quite clearly. If you reject Christ, you make him out to be a liar and therefore, you stand condemned before God... You have to have faith before your sins stand forgiven.

Any deeper is getting into real heavy theology and I prefer not to waste my time trying to explain that to someone who has no background in theology (I have a bachelors in it).

Then that is not a free gift is it.

Well I suppose it depends on what you mean by free.

Did you pay for said car?

Hey moron, try actually reading the Bible in detail before you ask these questions... .

Hey Rathanan, cut out the flaming. Questioning Christianity is NOT THE SAME THING as attacking Christianity... however, YOUR post is attacking the original poster for daring to question.

I think my fellow Christians should question their faith themselves once in a while...

If Christ died as the redeemer and saviour for all of humanity, it would then follow that the sins of every person future, past and present would be washed away as a result of his death. If no one then has sin, how can anyone go to hell?

The real issue is then "how can hell exist and be non empty?".

Btw iirc Christ is the saviour of "his people" - meaning all humanity who is willing to accept him as saviour.

Quoting the Bible to believers is unchivalrous. Please restrain yourself from strangling the opposition with their own intestines.

No, no. Quoting the bible is all right. It gives us a chance to refute your arguments based on something we (theoretically) know (reasonably) well.

For example: The people who wrote the Constitution of the United States owned slaves. Must we also throw out their life's work? They wrote laws which encouraged slaves to "submit to their masters". Furthermore, every government in the world asks that you "submit to authority". While slavery and submission is distasteful, using them as a reason to discredit an argument would also discredit any government that's been standing for oh, call it 200 years or more.

Besides that, there's an excellent reason for that verse... it's next to impossible to spread the gospel if you're leading a revolt against the very people you're supposed to be helping find their way into heaven through Jesus Christ. God, then, appears to values the salvation of one person over the freedom of one (or many) already saved. Which makes sense, seeing as eternal hell would be significantly more painful than a lifetime of slavery.

Hey moron, try actually reading the Bible in detail before you ask these questions... You will often times find the answer without having to make internet questions geared to attack Christianity.

But since I'm in a semi-indulgent mood, I'll give you a basic rundown. Yes, Christ died for the sins of the world and yes, it's for everyone. However, like any free gift, man can choose to reject it. The difference is, man cannot choose to accept it... Faith in Christ (which is what saves you) is a gift granted from Christ himself, the Bible states that quite clearly. If you reject Christ, you make him out to be a liar and therefore, you stand condemned before God... You have to have faith before your sins stand forgiven.

Any deeper is getting into real heavy theology and I prefer not to waste my time trying to explain that to someone who has no background in theology (I have a bachelors in it).
Again, that "You're either with us or against us." morality is the thing that many people find revolting. Sure, you're technically allowed to make your own choice, but you also have a choice to not open the safe as a bankemployee when a bankrobber holds a gun against your head. Isn't really nice now is it?

That's where the logical inconsistencies start.


Ofcourse the world is affected by every individual, but new individuals have NOTHING to do with the mistakes or errors made by previous individuals and should not be judged upon them. That wouldn't make sense now would it? Someone makes a mistake, a big one, gets a son, and then that son gets judged by the mistake from it's father even though he had 0.00 to do with that mistake. That does not make sense, and is incredibly cruel.

Nonsense. A man moves from Sweden to Egypt and takes his family with him, he dies there, his children have children, they are born in Egypt. No cruelty involved, the children are born outside of the place their great grandfather would have had them (Sweden) but they are not, now they are born in a different place/country because of their grandfathers choices.

God created one place, the first two moved to a different place (us here, created by them). God offers us a path back to the original place if we want to take it, through Jesus. No cruelty involved, love for lost ones is why God offers us the path back to where we were designed to be...

Nonsense. A man moves from Sweden to Egypt and takes his family with him, he dies there, his children have children, they are born in Egypt. No cruelty involved, the children are born outside of the place their great grandfather would have had them (Sweden) but they are not, now they are born in a different place/country because of their grandfathers choices.
False analogy. What it's about, is that they would be judged upon a choice they have nothing to do with. It doesn't make sense if a kid gets judged on the murder his father, or great-great-great-great grandfather commited because simply sad the kid has nothing to do with the mistake his forfathers made. The fact that someone's forfather was bad, doesn't make the kid bad, now does it?

God created one place, the first two moved to a different place (us here, created by them). God offers us a path back to the original place if we want to take it, through Jesus. No cruelty involved, love for lost ones is why God offers us the path back to where we were designed to be...
They didn't "move" there, they got kicked out. Problem is, is that I have nothing to do with the mistake they made, why would I suffer under a mistake they made? Why would there mistake make me a bad person as well? That's why it's cruel, I am judged upon mistakes I have nothing to do with.

Besides that, there's an excellent reason for that verse... it's next to impossible to spread the gospel if you're leading a revolt against the very people you're supposed to be helping find their way into heaven through Jesus Christ. God, then, appears to values the salvation of one person over the freedom of one (or many) already saved. Which makes sense, seeing as eternal hell would be significantly more painful than a lifetime of slavery.

In the Qu'ran, a sura explains much the same thing, that although Muhammad wanted equality for women, Allah explained that his cause would not stand against the prejudices of the time if he tried to enforce this, hence women were condemned to inequality for, well so far, 1, 300 years.

So a life of slavery is acceptable in God's view because otherwise his doctrine would fail?

Fantastic, as long as you pledge obeisance anything seems acceptable because He, no matter who, doesn't have the power to ensure his message is received unless people are condemned to sufferance.

As Balderdash says, 'there but for the grace of God go I'.

Well lucky me, I'm sure my reward lies in heaven...

...except oh no! I refuse to bow and scrape!

False analogy. What it's about, is that they would be judged upon a choice they have nothing to do with. It doesn't make sense if a kid gets judged on the murder his father, or great-great-great-great grandfather commited because simply sad the kid has nothing to do with the mistake his forfathers made. The fact that someone's forfather was bad, doesn't make the kid bad, now does it?

You don't like the analogy, but it's not a false analogy. I never said it made the kid bad, I said it made him to be born in a foreign land. Good or bad is irrelevant, God offers a ticket back home, good for anytime you want to accpet it and get on the ship, if you never accept it or never get on the boat, you will die in the foreign land and never receive the true life in the 'homeland'.


They didn't "move" there, they got kicked out. Problem is, is that I have nothing to do with the mistake they made, why would I suffer under a mistake they made? Why would there mistake make me a bad person as well? That's why it's cruel, I am judged upon mistakes I have nothing to do with.

Once upon a time English criminals were shipped to Australia. Many generations later children of English forefathers are still born in Australia, to no fault or choice of their own... In the case of God, he offers a ride back to 'England' to any that want to take it.

You don't like the analogy, but it's not a false analogy. I never said it made the kid bad, I said it made him to be born in a foreign land. Good or bad is irrelevant, God offers a ticket back home, good for anytime you want to accpet it and get on the ship, if you never accept it or never get on the boat, you will die in the foreign land and never receive the true life in the 'homeland'.
Problem is, if we don't accept that ticket, we're banished into Hell where we suffer forever. Thus, we're judged. Because of the mistake from 2 people we all are condemned to Hell by default.

Once upon a time English criminals were shipped to Australia. Many generations later children of English forefathers are still born in Australia, to no fault or choice of their own... In the case of God, he offers a ride back to 'England' to any that want to take it.
But there not getting thrown into fail for life (with all kinds of torture) for not accepting the ticket.

There's a lot of silly analogies here, from cars to countries to, dare I say it, cigarettes, especially when we're supposedly talking about an entity not analogous to our mortal selves, but the central issue remains.

Why should one bow to someone who's only real order is to love him/her/it or go to hell? The only reason I've seen is that the entity ordering said so when I've seen no evidence that such an entity exists.

Wouldn't you fight against that in life, even if you had proof of existence and someone said either bow to me or suffer eternal pain?

What sort of person are you bowing to?

Perhaps you would, perhaps, given the real choice then so would I - but would I love that person for forcing the choice?

I love big brother.

...

You forget, God is too busy promising Life, True Life and Joy, he's not threatening you with hell and death, you already have that.

You forget, God is too busy promising Life, True Life and Joy, he's not threatening you with hell and death, you already have that.
Why do I, as an individual, deserve eternal pain and damnation by default? What have I done wrong?

Why do I, as an individual, deserve eternal pain and damnation by default? What have I done wrong?

You were born. You live with the opportunity to improve your condition. Just like real life. Not everyone is born with the same opportunities as everyone else, not everyone will be successful. Being born brings with it the potential for true life, without being born there is no potential.

You were born. You live with the opportunity to improve your condition. Just like real life. Not everyone is born with the same opportunities as everyone else, not everyone will be successful. Being born brings with it the potential for true life, without being born there is no potential.
So because I was born, I'm bad and I deserve eternal suffering without even dóing something? Simply sad, WHAT THE HELL?? That doesn't even closely make sense, why the héll is coming into existance apperantly an act of such evil that you deserve to be punished for éver for it with eternal agony and suffering??
And by the way, lots of other religions claim there path leads to the "true life", so who says YOU are not the one who'll end up in hell?
Don't forget by the way, that lots of people do not get those oppertunity, for example kids who die before the age of 2 because they starve to death.

In the Qu'ran, a sura explains much the same thing, that although Muhammad wanted equality for women, Allah explained that his cause would not stand against the prejudices of the time if he tried to enforce this, hence women were condemned to inequality for, well so far, 1, 300 years.

So a life of slavery is acceptable in God's view because otherwise his doctrine would fail?

Fantastic, as long as you pledge obeisance anything seems acceptable because He, no matter who, doesn't have the power to ensure his message is received unless people are condemned to sufferance.

As Balderdash says, 'there but for the grace of God go I'.

Well lucky me, I'm sure my reward lies in heaven...

...except oh no! I refuse to bow and scrape!

Then, at the risk of sounding snarky, there probably isn't much I can do to convince you otherwise. Many of the points of Christianity depend on already believing in Christianity, which sounds paradoxical, but isn't. You can go find a thousand threads on reasons to believe. That's the central issue here.

Then, at the risk of sounding snarky, there probably isn't much I can do to convince you otherwise. Many of the points of Christianity depend on already believing in Christianity, which sounds paradoxical, but isn't. You can go find a thousand threads on reasons to believe. That's the central issue here.

It is paradoxical. As is evidanced by the way many Christians pick and choose which parts to go with and which parts sound too mad to be truely the word of God.

Thank you. It doesn't come naturally, but I try.

Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Submitting before the authority of the spirit is wise AND recognizing that over the last two thousand years, these arguments have been had over and over again, for me to dismiss their experience and expertise would be fool hardy. Like buying a football team and then deciding that I will coach it myself... Just because you can do something doesn't make it the wisest choice, hiring a professional coach with a proven track record would be a better option. Regarding the arguments of those who came before us is likewise a better choice, those that forget the past are bound to repeat it.

I always try to deny that Christianity is a cult, but when you make posts like these it becomes incredibly difficult.

Exceeeeept, as I understand it, there is recognition that not everyone knows Christ and that that is no bar to heaven....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtuous_pagan



According to Dante's Inferno, Virtuous Pagans are sent to Limbo, the first circle of Hell, along with un-baptized children and infants. Man....if this 'God' the Christians and Jews conjured up actually existed, then he wouldn't want to be the type of guy I would want to associate with. Apparently he thinks so highly of himself that unless a human, which is a relatively lowly form of life by comparison, doesn't actively worship him, then they are sent to a fiery abyss. Yet, we are told we were made in his image and given free will. So can any decision consciously made by a human be justified grounds for condemnation to hell? Why give us free will and then dictate our actions so greatly that we lose so much of this 'gift'?

I guess this is a good time to happily quote Rowan Atkinson's Hell Sketch, if only to entertain the hellfodder frequenting this forum:

Hello, nice to see you all again.

Now, as the more perceptive of you have probably realised by now, this is Hell, and I am the Devil. Good evening. You can call me Toby, if you like – we try and keep things informalhere, as well as infernal. That’s just a little joke.

Now, you’re all here for eternity, which I hardly need tell you is a sod of a long time, so you get to know everyone pretty well by the end, but for now I’m going to have to split you upinto groups. Are there any questions? Yes?

Um, no, I’m afraid we don’t have any toilets. If you’d read your Bible you would have seen that it was damnation without relief. So, if you didn’t go before you came then I’m afraid you’re not going to enjoy yourself very much… but then, I believe that’s the idea.

Right, let’s split you up then.
Can you all hear me still?
CAN YOU HEAR ME AT THE RACK?
All right, off we go…

Murderers, over here. Looters and pillagers – over there please, thieves if you could join them, and bank managers…

Fornicators, if you could step forward – my God there are a lot of you. Could I split you up into adulterers and the rest? Adulterers if you could just form a line in front of that small guillotine there.

Okay…
Americans, are you here? Look, I’m sorry about this, apparently God had some fracas with your founding fathers and damned the entire race into perpetuity. He sends particular condolences to the Mormons who He realises put in a lot of work. That’s the way the wafer crumbles. The Iranians, I’m afraid, can’t be with us – someone’s been holding them in purgatory for about nine months.

Sodomites, over there against the wall.

Atheists! Atheists? Over here please. You must be feeling a right bunch of charlies.

Okay, and Christians! Christians? Ah yes, I’m sorry, I’m afraid the Jews were right.

Okay, Moonies, maniacs, marmite eaters, male models, masochists, mass murderers and masseurs, if you could take a pew at the back - with the Methodists that is.

Now, you’re the lot who used to kill whales, is that right? Ah, yes, I must remember - I’ve got some strips to tear off you bastards later.

Everyone who saw Monty Python’s“Life of Brian”– I’m afraid He can’t take a joke after all.

Alright now, one final thing. We’re trying to implement some kind of exchange scheme with the Lord God Almighty, or Cliff as we know him. Some of you will travel up and have a decade in heaven and we’re having some angels down here. Now, I hardly need tell you that in heaven you will be expected to behave in an exemplary manner, so I hope you will do the exact opposite – tear off their wings, use their haloes for frisbee practice, that sort of thing.

Well, I have to go now, unfortunately, but Beelzebub here will show you the ropes... and the chains, and electrodes.

And I’d just like to leave you with a favourite joke of mine, if I may. Quite apt to the circumstances, I think, which goes something like:
“Knock, knock.
Who’s there?
Death.
Death wh…”

I guess this is a good time to happily quote Rowan Atkinson's Hell Sketch, if only to entertain the hellfodder frequenting this forum:
<snip>

In response:

Robot Devil: Cigar's are evil, you won't miss 'em. We'll find ways to simulate that smell. What a sorry fella! Rolled up and smoked like a collicella, here on level one of Robot Hell!

Gambling's wrong and so is cheating, so is forging phony I.O.U.s. Let's let Lady Luck decide what type of torture's justified, I'm pit boss here on level two!

Ooh, deep-fried robot!

Bender: Just tell me why!

Robot Devil: Just read this fifty-five page warrant.

Bender: There must be robots worse than I!

Robot Devil: We checked around, there really aren't.

Bender: Then please let me explain, my crimes were merely boyish pranks.

Robot Devil: You stole from boy scouts, nuns and banks!

Bender: Aw, don't blame me, blame my upbringing!

Robot Devil: Please stop sinning while I'm singing!

Selling bootleg tapes is wrong, musicians need that income to survive.

Beastie Boys: Hey, Bender gonna make some noise! With your hard drive scratched by the Beastie Boys!

(Record scratching sounds)

That's what-cha what-cha what-cha get on level five!

Fry: I don't feel well!

Leela: It's up to us to rescue him.

Fry: Maybe he likes it here in hell?

Leela: It's us who tempted him to sin.

Fry: Maybe he's back at the motel?

Leela: Come on, Fry, don't be scared! I'm sure at least one of us will be spared, so sit back and enjoy the ride.

Fry: My ass has blisters from the slide!

Robot Devil: Fencing diamonds, fixing cockfights, publishing indecent magazines. You'll pay for every crime! Knee-deep in electric slime! You'll suffer 'till the end of time, enduring tortures, most of which rhyme, trapped forever, here in Robot Hell!

I had no intention of responding to post 61. What did you want me to say? You quoted the scripture, it says it for me. Obviously you don't like the conclusion, but it is the conclusion all the same.

But since you mention it, let’s put your quote into context for perspective.

John 15:1-11
I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

Clearly that confirms both the existence of Hell, AND that Jesus warns even Christians that they have to abide in him, but it also tells us that God doesn't want us to end up in Hell, he wants us to abide in his Son and in that way we may find Joy and that it may be full, Hell is not the objective of existence.


what part of that confirms hell?

all i see is that some vines end up burned up. that does not imply an eternity of torment but a complete destruction.

Hell (whatever Hell) and damnation in the eyes of God (whatever God) are merely threats to force conformity, and submission to authority, within a given sub-set of humans. Secular governments now handle the job well enough and no longer need religion for the task.

In a related opinion: I would say that the only free, true Christians, are those with the courage to question their faith and their Lord. Thats how one learns.

what part of that confirms hell?

all i see is that some vines end up burned up. that does not imply an eternity of torment but a complete destruction.

Agreed. It confirms it's fiery existence, and that's all I meant with the confirming it statement. Like you said, it does not define it's eternal torment, or not.

Agreed. It confirms it's fiery existence, and that's all I meant with the confirming it statement. Like you said, it does not define it's eternal torment, or not.

the apocalypse of peter discusses the torments of hell and the wonders of heaven but that didnt make it into the bible.

the apocalypse of peter discusses the torments of hell and the wonders of heaven but that didnt make it into the bible.

The Apocalypse of Peter was included in the Muratorian Canon (c.200 C.E.) as well as the Codex Claramontanus (c.303-367), but we didn't get a complete copy of it for modern research until recently (last couple of hundred years or so, I think an English copy of it was done in the eighteenth century, but don't hold me to that). I've read that perhaps the book was associated with the heretical Gospel of Peter during the third century and lost favor thereafter by guilt of association of name only... (I'm guessing, not claiming scholastic knowledge on this)

The Apocalypse of Peter was included in the Muratorian Canon (c.200 C.E.) as well as the Codex Claramontanus (c.303-367), but we didn't get a complete copy of it for modern research until recently (last couple of hundred years or so, I think an English copy of it was done in the eighteenth century, but don't hold me to that). I've read that perhaps the book was associated with the heretical Gospel of Peter during the third century and lost favor thereafter by guilt of association of name only... (I'm guessing, not claiming scholastic knowledge on this)

i think its that it was obviously written too late to be authentically peters. the council of nicaea guys were pretty smart about that kind of thing.

its an interesting read though.

i think its that it was obviously written too late to be authentically peters. the council of nicaea guys were pretty smart about that kind of thing.

its an interesting read though.

Ninety nine percent of the time I say exactly what you've said here, about a non-canon gospel or book being written too late to be of Apostolic origin so it shouldn't be included anyway, etc., etc., etc. However, the Apocalypse of Peter does seem to be from before 125AD, that's pretty early (but still sixty years too late to be directly from Peter), but it was early for that kind of book. Additionally, you did it again, it wasn't the council of Nicea that picked the books ;)

This is a pretty good of what's in the NT and why and when summary ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

Ninety nine percent of the time I say exactly what you've said here, about a non-canon gospel or book being written too late to be of Apostolic origin so it shouldn't be included anyway, etc., etc., etc. However, the Apocalypse of Peter does seem to be from before 125AD, that's pretty early (but still sixty years too late to be directly from Peter), but it was early for that kind of book. Additionally, you did it again, it wasn't the council of Nicea that picked the books ;)

This is a pretty good of what's in the NT and why and when summary ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

thats what i get for not looking it up. i thought it was 3rd century.

maybe the NT didnt need a 2nd apocalypse?

but, unlike the apocalypse of john which has some chance of having been written by the actual apostle, the apocalypse of peter doesnt. or maybe some of it indicated heretical beliefs. some of those things are far too subtle for me to pick up on.

in any case it is an interesting read. it shows that no matter what is in the NT there was an early christian belief in a literal heaven of eternal reward and hell of eternal torment.

thats what i get for not looking it up. i thought it was 3rd century.

maybe the NT didnt need a 2nd apocalypse?

but, unlike the apocalypse of john which has some chance of having been written by the actual apostle, the apocalypse of peter doesnt. or maybe some of it indicated heretical beliefs. some of those things are far too subtle for me to pick up on.

in any case it is an interesting read. it shows that no matter what is in the NT there was an early christian belief in a literal heaven of eternal reward and hell of eternal torment.

I honestly don't know if I should just agree with everything you said here, or just simply say I think your analysis and insight are spot on... very thought provoking.

I think perhaps you've struck closest when you said that Peter couldn't have written it, worthy or not, that would be reason enough to leave it out. If it turns out that our copy is a second edition and Peter really did write it, maybe someday we'll rediscover that and put it back in it's proper context.

*snip*

I suppose it is the same way as the US calling themselves the land of the free, put the government puts so much restrictions on freedoms.

*snip*

Now you have done that I will have to give you what The Blackadder said about Hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWStgtLS9lQ&feature=related

It starts about 40 seconds in.

Considering that this is the 888,000th thread on the logic of Christianity, the premise of this discussion is false. There definitely is a hell.

Perhaps hell is NSG Christianity threads? :P

Considering that this is the 888,000th thread on the logic of Christianity, the premise of this discussion is false. There definitely is a hell.





*insert Ifreann's thread pic here*

In response:

Robot Devil: Cigar's are evil, you won't miss 'em. We'll find ways to simulate that smell. What a sorry fella! Rolled up and smoked like a collicella, here on level one of Robot Hell!

Gambling's wrong and so is cheating, so is forging phony I.O.U.s. Let's let Lady Luck decide what type of torture's justified, I'm pit boss here on level two!

Ooh, deep-fried robot!

Bender: Just tell me why!

Robot Devil: Just read this fifty-five page warrant.

Bender: There must be robots worse than I!

Robot Devil: We checked around, there really aren't.

Bender: Then please let me explain, my crimes were merely boyish pranks.

Robot Devil: You stole from boy scouts, nuns and banks!

Bender: Aw, don't blame me, blame my upbringing!

Robot Devil: Please stop sinning while I'm singing!

Selling bootleg tapes is wrong, musicians need that income to survive.

Beastie Boys: Hey, Bender gonna make some noise! With your hard drive scratched by the Beastie Boys!

(Record scratching sounds)

That's what-cha what-cha what-cha get on level five!

Fry: I don't feel well!

Leela: It's up to us to rescue him.

Fry: Maybe he likes it here in hell?

Leela: It's us who tempted him to sin.

Fry: Maybe he's back at the motel?

Leela: Come on, Fry, don't be scared! I'm sure at least one of us will be spared, so sit back and enjoy the ride.

Fry: My ass has blisters from the slide!

Robot Devil: Fencing diamonds, fixing cockfights, publishing indecent magazines. You'll pay for every crime! Knee-deep in electric slime! You'll suffer 'till the end of time, enduring tortures, most of which rhyme, trapped forever, here in Robot Hell!
Mega-*worship*
The 24th FTW!

Mega-*worship*
The 24th FTW!

I am pretty awesome, aren't I?

Unfortunately I have been studying world religions and history for quite some time. I have analyzed the arguments for and against God's existence from historical, theological and philosophical perspectives. God simply does not need to exist. Claiming that he/she/it *needs* to be real in order to explain all of existence only adds another link onto a chain of infinite regress. In other words, Aquinas was wrong in his Causality / First Mover argument.

But yes, I openly confess that I enjoy engaging religious fanatics in debate.

I can't help but notice that something need not be necessary to exist. Additionally, you replied that you looked into religion, to claim that you looked into the afterlife (re-read 'his' post).

I think the idea is that man has the free will to choose between heaven and hell. Before Jesus came, there supposedly was no heaven, or so I was always told.

there was a heaven before Christ. somewhere in Revelation (i have no idea where right now) it talks about those who believed in God (back then Judaism) but died before Christ were sent to some temple thing. IN Revelation it talks about them coming out during the end of the world