NationStates Jolt Archive

What do you think about fur? It's not helping us eat, as the animals are not edible, so for people to adorn themselves with fur, what do you think?

(Don't know if this has been here 2000 times, haven't seen it yet)

What do you think about fur? It's not helping us eat, as the animals are not edible, so for people to adorn themselves with fur, what do you think?

(Don't know if this has been here 2000 times, haven't seen it yet)

I like throwing ketchup and paint onto people. I really have no opinion about fur. :)

I find it odd on 1 part, but normal on the other. Humans have used animal hides since the dawn of man for clothing, why would it by itself (READ: What I mean with that, is wearing fur itself, I am NOT saying anything then about the source of it.) suddenly be bad now?

Don't care either way. I don't wear fur, since I'm not a rich chick or a rapper. I don't oppose furs, either. If I'm gonna wear critter parts, It'll be deerskin trapper-style gear. It'll go well with that muzzleloader I want.

See, to me personally, there's a difference between the wearing of fur by, for example, eskimos. They hunt what they wear, and they eat what they don't wear, in general. And as a general rule, I don't have a major problem with leather, as I feel that if we kill animals for meat (i.e. leather, cows, etc.), we should use everything we possibly can of the animal.

I prefer shaved (http://pussyloversparadise.com/cats/shaved_pussy_2.jpg).

i love fur.

but i have no need of a fur coat and i think that fur trimming on clothing is stupid.

oh well.

From an ethical point of view I don't really have aproblem with it provided the animals used to manufacture the fur suffer no unnecessary cruelty and are not endangered.

From a style point of view I consider it a crime.

Fur is soft and keeps me warm. I like to sleep nekkid in a fur-lined sleeping bag :fluffle:

From an ethical point of view I don't really have aproblem with it provided the animals used to manufacture the fur suffer no unnecessary cruelty and are not endangered.

From a style point of view I consider it a crime.

See, I checked this, and there is no way, unless you're talking fur off of wildlife (in which case they generally fall into your second category), that fur comes from animals that aren't suffering unnecessarily. It's kinda in the way they do it. If the animal lives in a cage the size of itself, and it's eating it's own paws, but the manufacturer doesn't care much, because he dosn't use the paws, is that unethical?

See, I checked this, and there is no way, unless you're talking fur off of wildlife (in which case they generally fall into your second category), that fur comes from animals that aren't suffering unnecessarily. It's kinda in the way they do it. If the animal lives in a cage the size of itself, and it's eating it's own paws, but the manufacturer doesn't care much, because he dosn't use the paws, is that unethical?

If people can raise animals for meat, egg or milk consumption in a cruelty free manner I fail to see how they cannot do the same with animals raised for making fur.

What do you think about fur? It's not helping us eat, as the animals are not edible, so for people to adorn themselves with fur, what do you think?

(Don't know if this has been here 2000 times, haven't seen it yet)
I'm wearing rabbit skin slippers, I've eaten rabbit before..it's chewy.

What's your point?

I like to have fur things, I have no problem killing animals for my own comfort.

I collect many furs and I plan to cobble something out of them one day.

However, each one of them came from an animal that I legally killed and was eaten and used afterwards. Why not use the fur if the rest of the creature is used for nutritional subsistance?

I cannot condone animal farms that only use the furs though, that is simply insane and cruel

I collect many furs and I plan to cobble something out of them one day.

However, each one of them came from an animal that I legally killed and was eaten and used afterwards. Why not use the fur if the rest of the creature is used for nutritional subsistance?

I cannot condone animal farms that only use the furs though, that is simply insane and cruel

That's what I'm talking about, apparently I wasn't as clear as I tried to be. I have eaten rabbit, I'm likely to do it again.

I don't mind fur as long as if the entire animal is use. I don't agree with it when the animal is killed ONLY for it's fur.

what a waste of meat and other materials...

If people can raise animals for meat, egg or milk consumption in a cruelty free manner I fail to see how they cannot do the same with animals raised for making fur.

Because fur is on the outside of the animal, so to keep it at "sellable" quality, the animals need to be kept in a very inhumane way.

Because fur is on the outside of the animal, so to keep it at "sellable" quality, the animals need to be kept in a very inhumane way.

Why is this neccessarily so? What are the specific barriers to humanely raising animals for their fur? Sheep can certainly be raised solely for their wool . .

Because fur is on the outside of the animal, so to keep it at "sellable" quality, the animals need to be kept in a very inhumane way.

Do you have evidence that it is necessary to do so, or that all fur farms operate in a cruel manner?

What do you think about fur? It's not helping us eat, as the animals are not edible, so for people to adorn themselves with fur, what do you think?

(Don't know if this has been here 2000 times, haven't seen it yet)

Fur was a very useful commodity back when it was one of the few ways to get clothes(and warm clothes at that.) Nowadays though it's really become not too useful.

But I generally don't have a problem with it so long as it's not the fur of an endangered animal, like a tiger. (In fact, I kindly ask that hunters who kill deer and the like use the fur for something, along with the rest of the entire animal.) I doubt I'd ever wear furs myself, but eh, it's no biggie.

Why is this neccessarily so? What are the specific barriers to humanely raising animals for their fur? Sheep can certainly be raised solely for their wool . .

Actually, whool is sheared from the sheeps body, so right there it's being "damaged" as it were, if we're talking about a full skin thing.

Actually, whool is sheared from the sheeps body, so right there it's being "damaged" as it were, if we're talking about a full skin thing.

Actually, it is to the rancher's advantage to not damage the animal, as that would impair its ability to regrow the wool and be shorn repeatedly. Of course, this is different than the case of fur, where the skin is removed, but again, why can such animals not be at least raised and euthanised humanely?

Do you have evidence that it is necessary to do so, or that all fur farms operate in a cruel manner?

See my answer to the post above yours, also, animals that are kept SOLELY for their fur are carnivores, and they will damage eachother if you keep them together. Hence, they are kept in small cages, where the only damage they can do is eating themselves.

As to there whether there IS another way, I don't know. Basing this on what I've been told by 3 different fur farms, and they say no.

See my answer to the post above yours, also, animals that are kept SOLELY for their fur are carnivores, and they will damage eachother if you keep them together. Hence, they are kept in small cages, where the only damage they can do is eating themselves.

As to there whether there IS another way, I don't know. Basing this on what I've been told by 3 different fur farms, and they say no.

I'm not denying that the animals need to be kept separate, I am disputing that doing so is necessarily cruel. The animals are certainly kept healthy (at least at reputable fur farms) due to the effect the animals health has on the qaulity of fur produced.

Fur is sexy. People are sexy in fur. I don't see the problem.

What do you think about fur? It's not helping us eat, as the animals are not edible, so for people to adorn themselves with fur, what do you think?

(Don't know if this has been here 2000 times, haven't seen it yet)

I wear sheepskin and wool because I eat lamb and mutton
I wear deer leather and cow leather and pig leather because I eat them too.
I would not mind about something trimmed with rabbit fur because rabbit's a food animal too.

I personally would not wear fox or mink or leopard because they're not raised for anything but fur.

I think if you wanna wear the fur, you should hunt the animal yourself -- and let it have as good a chance at killing you as you do it. ;)

Why is eating the animal so often treated as a necessary prerequisite of wearing it as well? I'm no fan of inefficiency or deliberate wastefulness but I don't understand why people consider it so necessary.

I think if you wanna wear the fur, you should hunt the animal yourself -- and let it have as good a chance at killing you as you do it. ;)

ahh... but will that poor sap suck.... er... fur hunter be armed with a weapon or just with what God (or Nature) gave him from birth? :p

not only is the methods used to make fur cruel and just a tad weird (though wearing skin is presumably not?) but it is also a fashion crime of the highest order!

furthermore (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cj1wcs7SZj0)

Don't know if this has been here 2000 times, haven't seen it yet

actually it hasn't, NS seems to be rather inner city in its topics *gangbangs a rival street gang*

If people can raise animals for meat, egg or milk consumption in a cruelty free manner I fail to see how they cannot do the same with animals raised for making fur.

Zoologists at Oxford University who studied captive mink found that, despite generations of being bred for fur, minks have not been domesticated and suffer greatly in captivity, especially if they are not given the opportunity to swim.[14] Foxes, raccoons, and other animals suffer equally and have been found to cannibalize each other as a reaction to their crowded confinement.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fur_farming

What do you think about fur? It's not helping us eat, as the animals are not edible, so for people to adorn themselves with fur, what do you think?
They're edible, just rarely eaten - Though, the carcasses probably have other use beyond waste even now (eg. fodder or fertilizer).

There are exeptions, like reindeer & bears, where the animal itself is usually eaten - even as an expensive delicacy - along with using the skin as clothing and other parts, like horns, for decoration/utility items.


On topic, I don't mind fur products if the fur came from an animal who lived a life without suffering, whose death was swift(er than in nature) and whose 'body' doesn't go to waste.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fur_farming
Wikipedia is hardly a trustworthy source in an issue like this.

It's probably written and sourced by someone who thinks hotly about the topic - That is (most likely) highly negatively about the topic.

edit:
The source for that: minks have not been domesticated and suffer greatly in captivity, especially if they are not given the opportunity to swim. comes from an organization which states this in their mission statement:
Simply put, animal abuse and the destruction of our environment has an ultimate consequence - the degradation of the human species

And has these listed as significant achievements:
GAN has already achieved significant victories for animals. In 1998, we cancelled plans to stage a cruel bullfight in Montreal. The following year, we obtained three municipal bylaws prohibiting animal acts in entertainment.

not only is the methods used to make fur cruel and just a tad weird (though wearing skin is presumably not?) but it is also a fashion crime of the highest order!
furthermore (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cj1wcs7SZj0)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fur_farming

Even given that fur animals may not be raised humanely does not preclude that they could be. Free-range mink, or what have you. Imagine the premium one could charge for certified guilt-free fur . . .

Standards can be put in place to make fur farming more humane - such as room for the animals to swim - but does tend to make the farming uneconomically viable. However, before we right off farming completely consider the danger posed to wild animal populations by not farming. Demand for fur isn't going to disappear with fur farming encouraging illegal poaching of fur animals that could drive them to extinction.

Fur? No!
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/8/84/Furryroundup.jpg

Standards can be put in place to make fur farming more humane - such as room for the animals to swim - but does tend to make the farming uneconomically viable. However, before we right off farming completely consider the danger posed to wild animal populations by not farming. Demand for fur isn't going to disappear with fur farming encouraging illegal poaching of fur animals that could drive them to extinction.

Very similar to an argument made by an economics professor when I was at uni, that if we really wanted to save the whales, we should let one person own them all. They would then ensure that some always survived, as that would be their means of future income. Not sure if I agree, but an intriguing argument nonetheless.

Standards can be put in place to make fur farming more humane - such as room for the animals to swim - but does tend to make the farming uneconomically viable.
Fur is already a luxury good.

If it was priced higher then it would gain even more status, hence supporting green fur.

Fur is already a luxury good.

If it was priced higher then it would gain even more status, hence supporting green fur.

But not real green fur, that's cruel! *tip o' the cap to BNL*

Wikipedia is hardly a trustworthy source in an issue like this.

It's probably written and sourced by someone who thinks hotly about the topic - That is (most likely) highly negatively about the topic.

did you just imply that research from zoologists at Oxford university are biased?

how about Reuters? note: PETA are complete gits who make searching for things impossible

I don't believe animals have souls, and therefore are not moral agents, so I have no ethical problem with the fur industry.

ahh... but will that poor sap suck.... er... fur hunter be armed with a weapon or just with what God (or Nature) gave him from birth? :p

Bring on the bear!!!! I have my . . .fists . . .uh oh
*crunching noises*
. . . . .I think the bear won

Very similar to an argument made by an economics professor when I was at uni, that if we really wanted to save the whales, we should let one person own them all. They would then ensure that some always survived, as that would be their means of future income. Not sure if I agree, but an intriguing argument nonetheless.

I'm sure its not a coincidence that I'm an economics student.

I find that its an argument that makes sense for conservation of both animals and their habitats - when someone is economically dependent (or at least better off) on their continued existence it makes conservation much easier.

Even given that fur animals may not be raised humanely does not preclude that they could be. Free-range mink, or what have you. Imagine the premium one could charge for certified guilt-free fur . . .

well erm...the wiki article I listed had a video...nevermind but like with Canada and its baby seals its almost impossible to insure regulations are followed

However, before we right off farming completely consider the danger posed to wild animal populations by not farming. Demand for fur isn't going to disappear with fur farming encouraging illegal poaching of fur animals that could drive them to extinction.

its already been banned in Britain IIRC and things are going swimmingly because this isn't the 17th century

I don't believe animals have souls, and therefore are not moral agents, so I have no ethical problem with the fur industry.

I sold my soul when I was 10 :(

ahh... but will that poor sap suck.... er... fur hunter be armed with a weapon or just with what God (or Nature) gave him from birth? :p

A knife, a bow maybe.

;) Will make that bearskin rug a REALLY interesting story.

did you just imply that research from zoologists at Oxford university are biased?

how about Reuters?

The wiki source for that particular bit I quoted came from obviously biased site conveniently quoting a source that's hard to verify (Reuters London 2/28/01) and if that bit was verified and universally accepted I'm sure there would be other studies that could be linked, aside from an arcane news agency report.

I looked up that source based on your quote and didn't really bother going through the rest of the article or its sources.

For that matter this bit in your quote:
Foxes, raccoons, and other animals suffer equally and have been found to cannibalize each other as a reaction to their crowded confinement.

Is sourced to PETA Media Center.

I don't believe animals have souls, and therefore are not moral agents, so I have no ethical problem with the fur industry.

aren't the only prerequisites for a soul flesh and blood (if you are Christian anyway) . . . .*goes to look for quote from bible*

A knife, a bow maybe.

;) Will make that bearskin rug a REALLY interesting story.

lol nope but the Human skin rug on the bears floor might be kinda cool lmao

On Fur-Free Friday, back in the dawn of time when I had my first job outta college, I had a PETArd get in my face in Manhattan and yell at me, "Fur is Murder! Don't wear fur!"

What was I wearing?
Canvas sneakers, cotton socks, blue jeans, and a big fluffy sweatshirt with a cute widdle kitty on it, and rhinestones. (VERY '80s) and a denim jacket.

I looked down at myself, then back at them, and said, "What fur do you think I'm wearing? Cottontail?"

I have no problem with people wearing fur products. Also, PETA is a terrible, ignorant organization.

On Fur-Free Friday, back in the dawn of time when I had my first job outta college, I had a PETArd get in my face in Manhattan and yell at me, "Fur is Murder! Don't wear fur!"

What was I wearing?
Canvas sneakers, cotton socks, blue jeans, and a big fluffy sweatshirt with a cute widdle kitty on it, and rhinestones. (VERY '80s) and a denim jacket.

I looked down at myself, then back at them, and said, "What fur do you think I'm wearing? Cottontail?"that's what confused em. :p

A knife, a bow maybe.

;) Will make that bearskin rug a REALLY interesting story.

it would make the person telling it REALLY interesting...
"oh, these scars... let me tell you about how I got that nice Bearskin rug you're lying on..."

I sold my soul when I was 10 :(


Hmm, well... I suppose I can let you have it back at a slight profit to me...

;)

it would make the person telling it REALLY interesting...
"oh, these scars... let me tell you about how I got that nice Bearskin rug you're lying on..."

prezactly.

aren't the only prerequisites for a soul flesh and blood (if you are Christian anyway) . . . .*goes to look for quote from bible*

No, the soul is the breath of God, which only humans have.

What was I wearing?
Canvas sneakers, cotton socks, blue jeans, and a big fluffy sweatshirt with a cute widdle kitty on it, and rhinestones. (VERY '80s) and a denim jacket.

pics or it didn't happen! (also you are so a teacher :p)

Hmm, well... I suppose I can let you have it back at a slight profit to me...

I seem to remember that when ones soul is owned it comes under slavery thus you have broken the law ;)

No, the soul is the breath of God, which only humans have.

I'll find that quote for you in a second

A knife, a bow maybe.

;) Will make that bearskin rug a REALLY interesting story.
Too bad the bears don't have monster trucks to hang their "trophies" from ;)

pics or it didn't happen! (also you are so a teacher :p)



I seem to remember that when ones soul is owned it comes under slavery thus you have broken the law ;)

Good lord, if I showed pics of me in the 80s you would see me with big hair. No way!

Anyhow, I picked up your soul at a flea market -- a little battered, but generally in good condition. Nothing a little soap and water and maybe a little touch up paint couldn't resolve....

Fur's a non-issue in my book. I don't own any fur, but I can see why you would - it's nice in cold weather, and leather/pigskin is great for a thousand other applications (gloves, shoes, belts, upholstery, etc.). With the usual caveats (don't waste good meat, don't torture, etc.) there's no reason not to use fur or skins.

I tan my own. I have rabbits, three breeds, Rex, which are a short velveteen style fur breed, Std Chinchilla, which have a thick long and lustrous fur with the same banding and shade as the little rodents called chinchillas, hence the name of the breed, and some rather crossbred Mutt Flemish Giants with a cross of Giant Chinchilla and Satin.

The Rex and the Standard Chinchilla are fur breeds, and have long been bred so, I'm currently breeding my numbers up to a true commercial operation. It's actually quite easy to confine rabbits humanely in cages, as they are colony animals which in the wild live for a majority of their time in warrens with less room than a cage to manoeuvre in.

the flemish mutts i just have for cheap meat.

I also hunt, goats, deer, wild pigs, wild rabbits, hares, possums, anything that moves that I won't be sued for shooting...

Frankly I include PETA members in the list of "vermin to be destroyed on sight" along with rats and ferrets.

Given PETAs own Kitty collection operation has been charged and convicted on animals cruelty charges, I don't see them as being anything more than a noisy mob of certinous assholes.

I tan my own. I have rabbits, three breeds, Rex, which are a short velveteen style fur breed, Std Chinchilla, which have a thick long and lustrous fur with the same banding and shade as the little rodents called chinchillas, hence the name of the breed, and some rather crossbred Mutt Flemish Giants with a cross of Giant Chinchilla and Satin.

The Rex and the Standard Chinchilla are fur breeds, and have long been bred so, I'm currently breeding my numbers up to a true commercial operation. It's actually quite easy to confine rabbits humanely in cages, as they are colony animals which in the wild live for a majority of their time in warrens with less room than a cage to manoeuvre in.

the flemish mutts i just have for cheap meat.


*Jealous* :p Sounds like a nice collection. I had a friend who has chinchillas -softest fur I've ever felt, that's for sure. A guy down the road from me breeds Netherland Dwarf rabbits for sale as pets, but also for fur and meat. Very interesting business.

I have absolutely no opposition to fur. It's all natural. :)

I have no problem with people wearing fur products. Also, PETA is a terrible, ignorant organization.

second.

Good lord, if I showed pics of me in the 80s you would see me with big hair. No way!

did the outfit come with bell bottoms? :p

Anyhow, I picked up your soul at a flea market -- a little battered, but generally in good condition. Nothing a little soap and water and maybe a little touch up paint couldn't resolve....

make sure you tie it to something physical otherwise you will have a soul bashing up against the lights all night;)

the list of "vermin to be destroyed on sight" along with rats and ferrets.

:(

I have absolutely no opposition to fur. It's all natural. :)

I can assure you if the fur was truly all natural people would not be wearing it with such enthusiasm

:(




I take it you like rats and ferrets?

I'll just give a bit of background.

NZ split off from australia and Gondwanaland back before mammals had gotten off their hairy arses and moved in, so the only native mammals around were a couple of species of bats that must have flown in sometime later. as such all the bird and reptile life evolved (or were created if you take the bible literally) without major land predators. all there was to fear was a few hawks and so on. as such a lot of species lay their eggs in places that rats and ferrets find to damn easy to raid, and as such, are critically endangering the native species by snacking on them to possible extinction.

other lands where mammals evolved, evolved mechanisims to deal with such predators. Rapid breeding, concealed nests, poisonous skins, glads or bites, mimicing something inedible... all things NZ natives don't do.

As such, rats and ferrets and other introduced species have far more of an impact than in many other places. In the Uk or elsewhere, if a pet ferret decides to move out and go wild, they just become one more predator in an ecosystem already filled with them, here it becomes a killing machine reaping a trail of destruction through the native ecosystem.

What do you think about fur? It's not helping us eat, as the animals are not edible, so for people to adorn themselves with fur, what do you think?

(Don't know if this has been here 2000 times, haven't seen it yet)

I don't mind a fur industry where the animal is already being used for other things such as meat, but that rather limits the sources.

I don't like fur that comes from animals that are specifically farmed for the purpose, but while I find it distasteful I'm not going to burn at the stake anyone who wears it. Ultimately, killing animals for any purpose is pointless - we don't need to eat them, so it would be somewhat hypocritical for me to say what kind of unnecessary killing is right and what is wrong.

As such, rats and ferrets and other introduced species have far more of an impact than in many other places. In the Uk or elsewhere, if a pet ferret decides to move out and go wild, they just become one more predator in an ecosystem already filled with them, here it becomes a killing machine reaping a trail of destruction through the native ecosystem.

They are the Furminator.

*Jealous* :p Sounds like a nice collection. I had a friend who has chinchillas -softest fur I've ever felt, that's for sure. A guy down the road from me breeds Netherland Dwarf rabbits for sale as pets, but also for fur and meat. Very interesting business.

You ought to try Rex fur :D

ND's? for meat? hmm... thats like raising sparrows for KFC :D it would take a lot of ND's to make a Kg of meat :D

SNIP

But! But! they wuv you!

in a blanket after a shower (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Frettchen_in_blanket.jpg)
I hope there not blind... (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Rat_siamese.JPG)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fur_farming

CtP, the wiki paragraphs you cited uses PETA pages as its reference. You know PETA has a tendency to make rubbish out of thin air to support their claims.

Don't like fur. Makes me sneeze. Or at least the sheepskin rug my parents used to have did.

I like throwing ketchup and paint onto people. I really have no opinion about fur. :)

I nominate thee for the first NSG Mario Capanna award.

(sadly, both the english and the italian wiki articles about Mario Capanna fail to remember him leading the protest at the season opening of La Scala theatre, when the crème de la crème of Milan, complete with fur-clad ladies, was paint- and egg-bombed by the left-wing students, back in 1969 iirc.)

I don't believe animals have souls, and therefore are not moral agents, so I have no ethical problem with the fur industry.

I don't believe you have a soul, therefore you are not a moral agent. Think I might make some mittens out of you.

I find it amusing that the anti fur people never throw things at the bikers in leather.

I find it amusing that the anti fur people never throw things at the bikers in leather.

That's probably because leather isn't fur.

What do you think about fur? It's not helping us eat, as the animals are not edible, so for people to adorn themselves with fur, what do you think?

(Don't know if this has been here 2000 times, haven't seen it yet)

I side with Hugh Fernly-Witingstall on this one. It's almost disrespectful to the animal to kill it and not use as much of it as possible. Animals just for fur, nope not I.

That's probably because leather isn't fur.

true... the few times theres been a mob howling on the screen of the idiot box, I've seen recognisably leather objects including shoes and belts on some of the hypocritical protesters.

Some were even eating burgers :P

I think fur is tacky looking just like animal prints.

do moths eat fur :confused:

Don't like fur. Makes me sneeze. Or at least the sheepskin rug my parents used to have did.

maybe your allergic to your parents?

I find it amusing that the anti fur people never throw things at the bikers in leather.

well it would be rude to disrupt a gay pride rally...

I think fur is tacky looking just like animal prints.

this is the vital part of the issue I think, what kind of sociaty would we live in if you could wonder around covered in animal hair and think you look good?

this is the vital part of the issue I think, what kind of sociaty would we live in if you could wonder around covered in animal hair and think you look good?
Hmmm one wich covers himself with animal hair and animal skin as long as the species exists? That's why I'm not anti-fur, it's normal, why would it suddenly be bad now?

Hmmm one wich covers himself with animal hair and animal skin as long as the species exists? That's why I'm not anti-fur, it's normal, why would it suddenly be bad now?Because civilization has moved on?
A lot of once 'normal' things are bad now. Or do you still go raiding the neighboring city (tribe) to steal their women?

Because civilization has moved on?
A lot of once 'normal' things are bad now. Or do you still go raiding the neighboring city (tribe) to steal their women?

The bolded just got bigger in scope and more organized. Nationstates go raiding the neighboring, sometimes even further than that, country to steal their resources.

As a civilization in terms of ethics and the like, humans haven't really moved all that much.

Hmmm one wich covers himself with animal hair and animal skin as long as the species exists? That's why I'm not anti-fur, it's normal, why would it suddenly be bad now?

because you look terrible wearing it? don't get me wrong Ray Mears might come in handy if I ever wake up naked in the dessert but would you let him do wild things to you?

Or do you still go raiding the neighboring city (tribe) to steal their women?

I'm not sure you can raid Milton Keynes for women :eek:

I'm not sure you can raid Milton Keynes for women :eek:


Now thats not fair, you can of course raid Milton Keynes for women, ugly women, but still women.

its already been banned in Britain IIRC and things are going swimmingly because this isn't the 17th century

Yeah, but its not illegal in most other areas that the famred furs can be imported from including the EU and the USA. If there was a blanket ban I think you'd find things becoming far worse. Don't really understand the 17th century bit though.

if I ever wake up naked in the dessert

Don't play with your food.

Now thats not fair, you can of course raid Milton Keynes for women, ugly women, but still women.

In service station Milton Keynes women raid you!

In service station Milton Keynes women raid you!

I have heard rumours that each roundabout is home to seperate tribes?

I hate it. I think its disgusting and wrong and anyone who wears fur should be ashamed of themselves.

Now i am prepared for the arguements that may follow regarding PETA but i believe 100% in what they stand for and what they do. Anti-whaling, seal clubbing, fur wearing, whatever it is. That may be because i'm an animal rights activist and i couldnt think of anything worse then the above but still, fur is just ugly!!

The following is taken from the PETA website:

Inside the Fur Industry: Animal Factories

Painful and Short Lives
The most commonly farmed fur-bearing animals are minks, followed by foxes. Chinchillas, lynxes, and even hamsters are also farmed for their fur.(2) Seventy-three percent of fur farms are in Europe, 12 percent are in North America, and the rest are dispersed throughout the world, in countries such as Argentina, China, and Russia.(3) Mink farmers usually breed female minks once a year. There are about three or four surviving kittens in each litter, and they are killed when they are about 6 months old, depending on what country they are in, after the first hard freeze. Minks used for breeding are kept for four to five years.(4) The animals—who are housed in unbearably small cages—live with fear, stress, disease, parasites, and other physical and psychological hardships, all for the sake of an unnecessary global industry that makes billions of dollars annually.

Rabbits are slaughtered by the millions for meat, particularly in China, Italy, and Spain. Once considered a mere byproduct of this consumption, the rabbit-fur industry demands the thicker pelt of an older animal (rabbits raised for meat are killed at the age of 10 to 12 weeks).(5) The United Nations reports that countries such as France are killing as many as 70 million rabbits a year for fur, which is used in clothing, as lures in flyfishing, and for trim on craft items.(6)

Environmental Destruction
Contrary to fur-industry propaganda, fur production destroys the environment. The amount of energy needed to produce a real fur coat from ranch-raised animal skins is approximately 15 times that needed to produce a fake fur garment.(11) Nor is fur biodegradable, thanks to the chemical treatment applied to stop the fur from rotting. The process of using these chemicals is also dangerous because it can cause water contamination.

Each mink skinned by fur farmers produces about 44 pounds of feces.(12) Based on the total number of minks skinned in the United States in 2004, which was 2.56 million, mink factory farms generate tens of thousands of tons of manure annually.(13) One result is nearly 1,000 tons of phosphorus, which wreaks havoc on water ecosystems.(14)


I could go on for days!!! DONT WEAR FUR. ITS WRONG AND YOU LOOK HORRIBLE IN IT.

I can't really decide which I like less, fur or PETA..

I can't really decide which I like less, fur or PETA..

I knew there would be a stupid comment somewhere after what i said.
At least the members of PETA have the balls to stand up and do something about animal cruelty. Because thats what they are about. So you dont like PETA? Why? Because they believe we should respect and not harm animals?
Is that wrong?

Because civilization has moved on?
A lot of once 'normal' things are bad now. Or do you still go raiding the neighboring city (tribe) to steal their women?
You realize that is still done right?

You realize that is still done right?

We haven't had the fun of pillaging women that you have had.

I knew there would be a stupid comment somewhere after what i said.
At least the members of PETA have the balls to stand up and do something about animal cruelty. Because thats what they are about. So you dont like PETA? Why? Because they believe we should respect and not harm animals?
Is that wrong?
Who says PETA is all honest and not manipulating there info?
PS: Saying "fur is ugly!!!" is highly subjective, sure I think it looks ugly as well, but that's not universal.
Because civilization has moved on?
That doesn't answer the question: why would it suddenly be wrong now?

Fur looks shit.
But Crocodile skin and leather look good. I don't want to like Crocodile skin, but it's pretty.

Fur looks shit.
But Crocodile skin and leather look good. I don't want to like Crocodile skin, but it's pretty.

'cept on shoes that is.

'cept on shoes that is.

Which on shoes? Leather shoes are nice. I was thinking Crocodile bags.

At least the members of PETA have the balls to stand up and do something about animal cruelty. Because thats what they are about. So you dont like PETA? Why? Because they believe we should respect and not harm animals?
Is that wrong?
Yes.

PETA believes that even using the creatures for our own benefit at all is wrong, and that's an entirely baseless position.

Plus, they protested the Torrington Gopher Museum, and that's one of my favourite weird landmarks.

Which on shoes? Leather shoes are nice. I was thinking Crocodile bags.

Croc skin shoes are less pretty and more, well pimpy!

Gahhh not handbags the bane of my life, ohh and shoes come to think of it, and fuckin' diamonds gahhhh!

I like to have fur things, I have no problem killing animals for my own comfort.
This is why people like you.

I knew there would be a stupid comment somewhere after what i said.Yeah, well, stupid begets stupid.

So you dont like PETA? Why?Because they're a bunch of lying (http://www.nokillnow.com/PETAPart1HorribleSecrets.htm) hypocritical (http://journals.aol.com/drforlw/journals.aol.comdrforlwthetrut/entries/2006/10/06/the-hypocrites-of-p.e.t.a./1018) ecoterrorists (http://www.furcommission.com/news/newsF04k.htm).

I'm all for treating animals ethically, but people are animals too.

You realize that is still done right?In the western world? By force? Like it used to happen in tribal times?
Where?

That doesn't answer the question: why would it suddenly be wrong now?Because what is right and wrong changes with the conditions one lives in. Once we can do better, we should do better.

That's probably because leather isn't fur.

whats the difference from Peta's animal cruelty point of view? both are aniaml skins.
to me it just seems like divide and conquer mentality. say fur is bad but ignore leather. sort of like how the prohibition movement first out lawed hard liquor then outlawed beer and wine.

Because what is right and wrong changes with the conditions one lives in. Once we can do better, we should do better.
I know, I know, but that wasn't the question. The question is why it would suddenly be bad.

well everyone says "we have used fur since the beginning" but what they dont see is we didnt use to torture animals for their fur "in the beginning", back then they killed the animal and made sure it was dead, now days they just stun the animal and rip is skin off while its still alive and they let them sit there and die, i recently watched a video of a female wolverine(i think it was something else but i cant remember) getting skinned and then sitting in its blood twitching and screaming for mercy

I shoot animals for fur.

So far, they've all died instantly. Shooting small animals in the head is a pretty painless procedure.

When I skin them, they're dead and can't feel anything.

The fur looks and works great - a better winter hat can't be made.

well everyone says "we have used fur since the beginning" but what they dont see is we didnt use to torture animals for their fur "in the beginning", back then they killed the animal and made sure it was dead, now days they just stun the animal and rip is skin off while its still alive and they let them sit there and die, i recently watched a video of a female wolverine(i think it was something else but i cant remember) getting skinned and then sitting in its blood twitching and screaming for mercy

:rolleyes:

I've seen wolverines killed. They die first, get skinned second. If some fucking weirdos are doing it as you've described, they deserve a hard kick to the balls.

What do you think about fur? It's not helping us eat, as the animals are not edible, so for people to adorn themselves with fur, what do you think?

(Don't know if this has been here 2000 times, haven't seen it yet)
Fur is a necessity in the Arctic, and extremely useful in northern areas less extreme. I have no problem wearing fur there. Wearing it in warmer climes is stupid...it's too fucking hot to bother with.

I don't support fur farms, I think it's disgusting. I support aboriginal trappers, because despite your claim, in most of those cases, the meat is eaten. There are some few exceptions.

Don't approve of meat, so I don't approve of fur. Both demand totally unnecessary deaths for the sake of decadence.

Because civilization has moved on?


No man-made substance can beat wolverine fur for trim around sleeves and hood...it doesn't frost up. Ditto for gloves. Fur is lighter and more insulating than a synthetic parka. When you live in the North where the winters are freaking brutal, and you don't just hide inside for six months, fur is the best choice.

Don't approve of meat, so I don't approve of fur. Both demand totally unnecessary deaths for the sake of decadence.

Again, depends on where you live.

Wearing fur in California? Decadence.

Wearing fur in Inuvik? Necessity. The temperature can drop to -65 degrees Celcius with the wind. No parka in existence can insulate you against that the way fur can.

And as for your approval of 'meat'...you also need to look beyond your own living conditions.

Fur is a necessity in the Arctic, and extremely useful in northern areas less extreme. I have no problem wearing fur there. Wearing it in warmer climes is stupid...it's too fucking hot to bother with.

I don't support fur farms, I think it's disgusting. I support aboriginal trappers, because despite your claim, in most of those cases, the meat is eaten. There are some few exceptions.

I eat the deer, and tan the hides. I have a great buckskin outfit, that I use when hunting, fishing, or hiking outdoors.

Haven't shot a deer that I didn't make the most of.

I actually support the idea that aboriginals be given their own hunting rights, and that they should exercise control over who gets to hunt in their own hunting preserves.

Fur farms are disgusting, and hunting when you don't use as much of the animal as possible is stupid (well, unless you're hunting people).

The fur I meant earlier was stuff like mink and chinchilla etc. The majority of people who wear it don't need it, the way the fur came about is hideous. That they think they're big shit, simply wearing it for looks. Totally tacky, imo. I guess a good name for what I was speaking of is fashion fur.

Killing a wild animal because you need their skin and fur for rugged gear in harsh weather .. no problem and not at all tacky. I'd wear an entire bear as a jumpsuit if I needed to.



I'd probably have no problem with someone going out hunting chinchillas to make what they needed tho (if they are actually warm and good for harsh weather, but I have a feeling they aren't -- people like it cause it's all soft and furry).

It's the mass production part that bothers me most I guess. Entirely unnecessary, wasteful and bad living conditions for the animal. All for money.

But the food industry has bad conditions as well. Things like this should be local.. or small. It's the big mass production that screws everything and everyone up. It stops being about having high quality healthy happy animals to having as damn many as possible to get as big as possible as fast as possible to sell to as many people as possible for as much money as possible. sigh I got off topic a bit .. I'll separate this from my starting point.

I don't have an issue with fur at all. When I was younger I used to trap and dress out and sell hides. It's an industry like any other.

No I don't feel the need to eat the animal, but my dog does. So nothing is wasted. :p

I have much more issue with people who wear diamonds and are oblivious to the human rights violations that go with that. Not to mention a diamond doesn't keep you warm, at least fur and leather have a use. jmo

Not to mention a diamond doesn't keep you warm
Depends on who you give the diamond to ;)

I don't have an issue with fur at all. When I was younger I used to trap and dress out and sell hides. It's an industry like any other.

No I don't feel the need to eat the animal, but my dog does. So nothing is wasted. :p

I have much more issue with people who wear diamonds and are oblivious to the human rights violations that go with that. Not to mention a diamond doesn't keep you warm, at least fur and leather have a use. jmo

diamonds get you laid.

diamonds get you laid.

Oh if it took a diamond to get me laid, I would be finding new playmates.:p

Anyway a fur rug would be much more fun!

diamonds get you laid...
...with materialistic hoors.

...with materialistic hoors.

you mean all women.

yeah diamonds are only for those super hot girls who act like their legs are sewed shut.
but love Bling.

though if they are blond i can get away with a fake diamond most of the time.

you mean all women.
No.

yeah diamonds are only for those super hot girls who act like their legs are sewed shut.
but love Bling.

though if they are blond i can get away with a fake diamond most of the time.
Euch.

None of that high-school sexism, thank you very much.

You ought to try Rex fur :D

ND's? for meat? hmm... thats like raising sparrows for KFC :D it would take a lot of ND's to make a Kg of meat :D

Yeah, they're little guys. But he's got almost a thousand, and only about 20% wind up pure enough to breed, which leaves a *lot* of critters for cosumption, if they can't be given away free to the local kids. :p

...and I thought this was going to be a furry thread. So dissapointed <.<

Yeah, well, stupid begets stupid.

Because they're a bunch of lying (http://www.nokillnow.com/PETAPart1HorribleSecrets.htm) hypocritical (http://journals.aol.com/drforlw/journals.aol.comdrforlwthetrut/entries/2006/10/06/the-hypocrites-of-p.e.t.a./1018) ecoterrorists (http://www.furcommission.com/news/newsF04k.htm).



'Lying' first of all...anyone can write a story like that, they get paid money to talk about that kind of information. How do you know this person isnt lying? You dont do you. You just assume so because you dont liek PETA.
'Hypocrites' This guy is assuming that PETA arent getting these deers off the road therefore they must not care about them. Has he bothered to read the PETA website? Research them properly? Or have you for that matter?
Just because he is a redneck farmer who likes to shoot things he has the point of view that PETA is bad because they are ruining an 'American tradition'. Well thats ridiculous.

And 'ecoterrorists' i can do nothing but laugh at this

No.


Euch.

None of that high-school sexism, thank you very much.

seriously there are women who are not with materialistic hoors ??? really ???

Don't approve of meat, so I don't approve of fur. Both demand totally unnecessary deaths for the sake of decadence.

Yeah I agree, it is totaly decadent to use our meat tearing teeth to obtain protien from dead animals.:rolleyes:

Yeah I agree, it is totaly decadent to use our meat tearing teeth to obtain protien from dead animals.:rolleyes:

not to mention the only other way to get vitamin B12 is to eat feces.

not to mention the only other way to get vitamin B12 is to eat feces.

Thank goodness milk is not meat and has vitB12. I find Shining Y's POV to be completely ligit. Non-vegetarians generally eat more meat than they need to.

Thank goodness milk is not meat and has vitB12. I find Shining Y's POV to be completely ligit. Non-vegetarians generally eat more meat than they need to.

I don't find it particularly natural to drink the milk of another species.

I don't find it particularly natural to drink the milk of another species.Its not about doing whats natural, its about avoiding needless killing.

you mean all women. Shut the fuck up.

yeah diamonds are only for those super hot girls who act like their legs are sewed shut.
but love Bling.

though if they are blond i can get away with a fake diamond most of the time.
:rolleyes:

seriously there are women who are not with materialistic hoors ??? really ???

And men who are not childish, misogynist, impotent morons. Yes.

I'm of the opinion that now that humans have alternatives to fur (plant fibers, wool, synthetics), we no longer have any good reason to kill animals SOLELY for their skins. I don't have any problem with taking the skins of animals killed for meat. But as far as I'm concerned, selling fur should be a side job for farmers or hunters.

Wool, of course, doesn't count, as sheep don't die when we shear them.

And of course, I do not accept any excuses for inhumane treatment. We're supposed to be superior to animals, let's act like it. Treat them well over their lives, followed by a quick death. Kosher butchers slit the throat with a really sharp knife.

As for PETA, I view them as extremists. Fighting for animal rights is one thing. They practically subsume human rights in favor of animal rights.

I'm of the opinion that now that humans have alternatives to fur (plant fibers, wool, synthetics), we no longer have any good reason to kill animals SOLELY for their skins. I don't have any problem with taking the skins of animals killed for meat. But as far as I'm concerned, selling fur should be a side job for farmers or hunters.

Wool, of course, doesn't count, as sheep don't die when we shear them.

And of course, I do not accept any excuses for inhumane treatment. We're supposed to be superior to animals, let's act like it. Treat them well over their lives, followed by a quick death. Kosher butchers slit the throat with a really sharp knife.

We're supposed to be superior to animals, let's act like it.
We do. We exploit and subjugate them.

What does that make us if not superior?

What do you think about fur? It's not helping us eat, as the animals are not edible, so for people to adorn themselves with fur, what do you think?

(Don't know if this has been here 2000 times, haven't seen it yet)

Bunnies have fur, bunnies are edible. I only wear the skin/fur of animals that I would eat.

I hate it. I think its disgusting and wrong and anyone who wears fur should be ashamed of themselves.

Now i am prepared for the arguements that may follow regarding PETA but i believe 100% in what they stand for and what they do. Anti-whaling, seal clubbing, fur wearing, whatever it is. That may be because i'm an animal rights activist and i couldnt think of anything worse then the above but still, fur is just ugly!!

The following is taken from the PETA website:


Which means it should be ignored.

I take it you like rats and ferrets?

As such, rats and ferrets and other introduced species have far more of an impact than in many other places. In the Uk or elsewhere, if a pet ferret decides to move out and go wild, they just become one more predator in an ecosystem already filled with them, here it becomes a killing machine reaping a trail of destruction through the native ecosystem.


I love ferrets, they are my favourite animal, and I unfortunately just lost my almost ten year old Stella Polaris 3 months ago. That being said, I totally understand where you're coming from when it comes to introduced species, and I know Australia and NZ have major problems with species that should never have been in that environment to begin with. Which is why one persons favorite animal can be another persons vermin.

Its not about doing whats natural, its about avoiding needless killing.
pity about those lactose intolerant people to avoid killing we should force them to Die. things should be done naturally because it is what can serve the vast majority of the human race.

Possum fur here has passed the $115 a kg mark now, and that's just for the fur plucked off the furry vermins corpse. A pelt from a possum, if a good grade with no marks or discolourations, will sell for upwards of $30 as a green salted skin to a tannery :D

theres money in them there hills :D

not to mention the only other way to get vitamin B12 is to eat feces.

In the novel Oryx and Crake there is one character, Crake, who alters human genetics to create an improved human race. One thing they do is eat their own feces because that way they gain more nutrients, such as B12. Another one, Jimmy, objects to this on grounds of aesthetics.

In the novel Oryx and Crake there is one character, Crake, who alters human genetics to create an improved human race. One thing they do is eat their own feces because that way they gain more nutrients, such as B12. Another one, Jimmy, objects to this on grounds of aesthetics.

well have it then

In the novel Oryx and Crake there is one character, Crake, who alters human genetics to create an improved human race.

Surely a far better way, if you have the genetic skills to modify beings, is to run a fully internal bypass loop in the gut, extend the appendix and run it back to join to the start of the small intestine, and use it to run a portion of the faeces back through a second time, avoiding the mess of eating them, but still obtaining all the vitamin and mineral goodies. plus using the appendix for something useful, rather than just being a potential emergency surgery candidiate