NationStates Jolt Archive

Why do you think it is that suicide rates are higher in wealthier, more industrialised countries? Is there something in our(and I use the term loosely) culture that can change to reduce this or is this simply an unfortunate side effect to our society?

For prospective: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Suicide_rates_map.svg

Even looking at the map, I'm not sure that's the correlation.

I'm not sure I'm going to put the right effort into explaining this but cultural attitudes to suicide are probably the main factor, the second being culture of expectations in terms of homogeneity, 'fitting in' or pressure to conform. These two factors can exaggerate or cancel each other out, making the entire issue very complicated and not subject to easy answers.

If you look at data, you can see spikes, or trends, of suicide in any area. Where a suicide is reported, there will be copycat suicides, although copycat is not the right word really, it's more that the idea is lent some credence to those on the verge.

Anyway, the idea that the wealthier a nation becomes, the more suicides occur is not really correct.

Most western cultures have poor community support for mental illness (in my opinion).

Is it any better in second and third-world countries?

Poorer countries tend to be more religious.

Religions tend to say that suicide is the worst thing you can do.

Poorer countries tend to be more religious.

Religions tend to say that suicide is the worst thing you can do.

The US is more religious on average than most countries on Europe. I don't think it has significantly lower suicide rates.

Edit: Shit, I was wrong.

Even looking at the map, I'm not sure that's the correlation.

I'm not sure I'm going to put the right effort into explaining this but cultural attitudes to suicide are probably the main factor, the second being culture of expectations in terms of homogeneity, 'fitting in' or pressure to conform. These two factors can exaggerate or cancel each other out, making the entire issue very complicated and not subject to easy answers.

If you look at data, you can see spikes, or trends, of suicide in any area. Where a suicide is reported, there will be copycat suicides, although copycat is not the right word really, it's more that the idea is lent some credence to those on the verge.

Anyway, the idea that the wealthier a nation becomes, the more suicides occur is not really correct.

A homeless undocumented Swiss fellow who told me to call him Wizard, behind a Starbucks two blocks of the strip in Vegas, once told me that the profession with the highest suicide rate was Philosophy professors, followed by medical doctors. He didn't have any peer-reviewed data on him at the time, even though I offered to trade him some grape swisher sweet cigars in exchange.

Anyway, although the varied impeti for suicide might trend differently in wealthier nations, I've never seen anything to indicate that the resultant incidences are disproportionately high.

I'd say that to overcome the deeply hardwired urge to preserve one's own life, negative stimuli has to have become so intense that the maladaptive response of self-injury is sufficiently desperate.

That, or you just can't handle what you are anymore, so, you know, fuck it, bail. Whether that happens more in places with valet parking, I don't know.

Is it any better in second and third-world countries?

Well we don't know, do we? Africa is completely unknown. As for the blue countries on the map, I don't trust that information. I don't believe that any of those countries (with the probable exception of Portugal) have the infrastructure to accurately find that information. I would say that the numbers they give are the numbers they know, which I would not say are accurate. So honestly, I would think rates would be about the same in most places, third-world or otherwise. But, I don't know, since apparently no one has tried to find out in those places.

A homeless undocumented Swiss fellow who told me to call him Wizard, behind a Starbucks two blocks of the strip in Vegas, once told me that the profession with the highest suicide rate was Philosophy professors, followed by medical doctors. He didn't have any peer-reviewed data on him at the time, even though I offered to trade him some grape swisher sweet cigars in exchange.

I heard it was dentists, because they're always a bit down in the mouth.

No, seriously, it's a serious subject.

Wizard wasn't Swiss, he meant 'swish' when he said it, it wasn't just a silly accent. When you offered grape swisher sweet cigars, he probably thought you were taking the piss.

He couldn't know what a sombre chap you really are.

May I suggest a correspondence between leisure time, which increases as a nation becomes generally more wealthy, and time to contemplate suicide?

It may also be that poorer people, struggling just to survive, may be less inclined to throw away those efforts.

Then, there is also the higher potential for isolation in a more wealthy society. Poverty often requires sharing quarters, providing less opportunity and inclination to end one's own life.

Just a few random ideas . . .

May I suggest a correspondence between leisure time, which increases as a nation becomes generally more wealthy, and time to contemplate suicide?

It may also be that poorer people, struggling just to survive, may be less inclined to throw away those efforts.

Then, there is also the higher potential for isolation in a more wealthy society. Poverty often requires sharing quarters, providing less opportunity and inclination to end one's own life.

Just a few random ideas . . .

Wealth cant relate to suicide much. Look at Russia.

I don't think the map supports your supposition very well. I think the propensity for suicide depends on a blend of economic conditions, societal expectations, religion, and having a sense of control over one's destiny. How these factors combine to create the trends we see in different countries I don't entirely know.

I do know that in the United States, the group with the highest suicide rate by far is Native boys and men between about 15 and 30 years of age. This is certainly not an affluent group, but it is one that, sadly, makes sense.

Why do you think it is that suicide rates are higher in wealthier, more industrialised countries? Is there something in our(and I use the term loosely) culture that can change to reduce this or is this simply an unfortunate side effect to our society?

Yes. We have time to think about things.

First of all, I think establishing a correlation either way would be hard work, considering the significantly poorer data available from poor countries on even as basic a thing as how many people died, let alone what they died from.

Secondly, if such a correlation were to exist, it would probably have to do with people in wealthy countries having fewer people that rely on them for survival. If you're part of a 20 head family and barely scraping by, you know that killing yourself will cause all sorts of hardships for everyone around you, so you might decide not to do it.

And then there's the whole "I'm in charge of my own destiny" thing in wealthy countries, which is probably less common in subsistence farming. I've just finished reading "100 years of Solitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Years_of_Solitude)", and for some reason it gave me a great insight into how people like that might see their lives.[/unrelated]

Honestly, I think it is impossible to really tell, since many countries do not recognize mental illness as existing, and culturally it is not for one to admit that a family member committed suicide. Thus, reports can easily be skewed.

For instance, I come from a Bulgarian family, a culture in which suicide is absolutely unacceptable to speak about or have occur in your family... so anyone who commits suicide is "forgotten" from the family... basically never mentioned again. My grandma had three siblings that no one ever spoke of, and I didn't know they existed until I was doing a genealogy of my family... they died in adulthood when my grandma was a teenager, so it's not like she never knew them. Speculation among my immediate family is that they were suicides... Another family member confirmed that one of the siblings had been buried outside the cemetery... another sign of a suicide. I don't know where the others were buried; no one has ever mentioned anything.

Thus, whenever I see mental illness and suicide statistics, I realize that these only exist in countries that admit these things as happening. If there were a way to accurately figure out the suicide rates of every country, I think it would be quite different.

Maybe wealthier nations have a higher suicide rate because the wealthier can afford to work less. They don't have to work constantly just to eat. They take more time off, which means they have more time to really think about stuff. When you're worried about your survival, you don't really have time to worry about much else.

longer working week --> more free time --> more time to have existential angst and think about topping oneself --> more suicides --> ??? --> profit!

That was just an idea that popped into my head and I have no intention of backing it up. But I did notice that the US and UK have a longer working week than Europe and tend to have lower suicide rates as well.

More money for ropes and/or sleeping pills. Obv.

longer working week --> more free time --> more time to have existential angst and think about topping oneself --> more suicides --> ??? --> profit!

That was just an idea that popped into my head and I have no intention of backing it up. But I did notice that the US and UK have a longer working week than Europe and tend to have lower suicide rates as well.

Who was it that said something to the effect of "The most sure guard against sorrow is employment"?

I want to say Franklin, but I have no idea.

I've found that my my own melancholy was held off (for as long as it could be) by whoring, pool, and being unconscious. In that order.

behind a Starbucks two blocks of the strip in Vegas
Behind a Starbucks, eh?
*ponders*

Easy. Future vs. present time orientation.

Not that I have any evidence to that effect, but as far as wild-ass guesses go, it sounds plausible enough. :p

Differences in reporting, I'd guess.

Interestingly, though, there are vast differences among the more industrialized countries, too--the top is Lithuania, with a suicide rate of 40.2, and further down we find countries like Israel, with 6.2. That's a pretty drastic difference--and Israel definitely has a higher GDP per capita and probably a shorter work week than Lithuania.

See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_rates).

Poorer countries tend to be more religious.

Religions tend to say that suicide is the worst thing you can do.
Yep. This one.

I live in a blue country on that map, from a "third world" country with a very religious population... a suicide will get TV coverage in the evening news or coverage in a tabloid... perhaps that is a deterrent to suicide too :p. I do not like to see a picture of my dead body hanging from a noose in the ceiling beside a picture of a scantily-clad female at the front page of some tabloid...

Not all suicide is alike.

Suicide is sometimes the right option. Perhaps it is a rational means of population control ... perhaps it is a part of the urge to self-sacrifice of soldiers, ambulance officers and itinerant nutbags.

Perhaps more affluent citizens suicide more often because they aren't fighting for individual survival, don't see their own existence as vital to others, and aren't bound by moral proscriptions. In fact, are doing what is rationally best for their genes and for society as a whole ... killing themselves.

Differences in reporting, I'd guess.

Interestingly, though, there are vast differences among the more industrialized countries, too--the top is Lithuania, with a suicide rate of 40.2, and further down we find countries like Israel, with 6.2. That's a pretty drastic difference--and Israel definitely has a higher GDP per capita and probably a shorter work week than Lithuania.

See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_rates).
Keep in mind that the Lithunians have serious issues with police corruption with the mafia and such, and a lot of those supposed suicides will probably be murders written off as something else.

Why do you think it is that suicide rates are higher in wealthier, more industrialised countries? Is there something in our(and I use the term loosely) culture that can change to reduce this or is this simply an unfortunate side effect to our society?

For prospective: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Suicide_rates_map.svg

I'd imagine it's probably a combination of pressure (not wealth or industrialisation, per se) of life in certain countries, and the safety net that is available in those same nations.

That safety net might be religious, social, cultural, governmental, familial... some combination.

Religion is probably an important factor... you can make people suffer through some pretty horrible shit, if you let them think it will eventually get better.

Maybe wealthier nations have a higher suicide rate because the wealthier can afford to work less. They don't have to work constantly just to eat. They take more time off, which means they have more time to really think about stuff. When you're worried about your survival, you don't really have time to worry about much else.

Hardly true. Citizens in poorer countries work considerably less than wealthier nations. They have much less stress in their day to day lives. I would suggest travelling to some third world nations and see for yourself. If anything the Western life style creates a higher rate due to higher expectations and stress.

If wealth = suicide, Bill Gates would be dead already. :p

It looks like the highest suicide rate is in Europe, but not the US and Canada. *Ponders*

I wonder what Iraq's, Afghanistan's and the Palestinian Authority's suicide rates are like. I imagine that they would be pretty high, since almost everyone is blowing themselves up to get rid of the American Oppressor™ in the first two, and the Israeli Oppressor™ in the last one.

I wonder what Iraq's, Afghanistan's and the Palestinian Authority's suicide rates are like. I imagine that they would be pretty high, since almost everyone is blowing themselves up to get rid of the American Oppressor™ in the first two, and the Israeli Oppressor™ in the last one.
:p


If I had enough space, I'd sig that!

It looks like the highest suicide rate is in Europe, but not the US and Canada. *Ponders*
Aye, in the north that's due to Seasonally Affected Depression, in the south that's due to poverty.

The Canucks properly up north have tons of money to go on holiday somewhere nice, and I'd reckon that a lot of Americans avoid suicide due to their religious convictions.

In fact, I'm sure you'd probably get a decent correlation between Atheism and suicide. Can't be arsed to compile that at past midnight, though.

Why do you think it is that suicide rates are higher in wealthier, more industrialised countries? Is there something in our(and I use the term loosely) culture that can change to reduce this or is this simply an unfortunate side effect to our society?

For prospective: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Suicide_rates_map.svg

I don't think it's wealth, because otherwise China, Russia, and India wouldn't be on par with Europe/ the US. I really hate to say it, but the countries with the lowest suicide rates (Latin America and the Middle East) are the most religious, while the highest (Russia, China, Europe) are the least religious. Of course, religion probably isn't the only, and possibly isn't the largest reason for suicide rates. But it's one correlation I see.