NationStates Jolt Archive

Hints of 'time before Big Bang'

A team of physicists has claimed that our view of the early Universe may contain the signature of a time before the Big Bang.

The discovery comes from studying the cosmic microwave background (CMB), light emitted when the Universe was just 400,000 years old.

Their model may help explain why we experience time moving in a straight line from yesterday into tomorrow.

Details of the work have been submitted to the journal Physical Review Letters.

The CMB is relic radiation that fills the entire Universe and is regarded as the most conclusive evidence for the Big Bang.

Although this microwave background is mostly smooth, the Cobe satellite in 1992 discovered small fluctuations that were believed to be the seeds from which the galaxy clusters we see in today's Universe grew.

Dr Adrienne Erickcek, and colleagues from the California Institute for Technology (Caltech), now believes these fluctuations contain hints that our Universe "bubbled off" from a previous one.

Their data comes from Nasa's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), which has been studying the CMB since its launch in 2001.

Their model suggests that new universes could be created spontaneously from apparently empty space. From inside the parent universe, the event would be surprisingly unspectacular.

Arrow of time

Describing the team's work at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society (AAS) in St Louis, Missouri, co-author Professor Sean Carroll explained that "a universe could form inside this room and we’d never know".

The inspiration for their theory isn't just an explanation for the Big Bang our Universe experienced 13.7 billion years ago, but lies in an attempt to explain one of the largest mysteries in physics - why time seems to move in one direction.

The laws that govern physics on a microscopic scale are completely reversible, and yet, as Professor Carroll commented, "no one gets confused about which is yesterday and which is tomorrow". (I do:( )

Physicists have long blamed this one-way movement, known as the "arrow of time" on a physical rule known as the second law of thermodynamics, which insists that systems move over time from order to disorder.

This rule is so fundamental to physics that pioneering astronomer Arthur Eddington insisted that "if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation".

The second law cannot be escaped, but Professor Carroll pointed out that it depends on a major assumption - that the Universe began its life in an ordered state.

This makes understanding the roots of this most fundamental of laws a job for cosmologists.

"Every time you break an egg or spill a glass of water you're learning about the Big Bang," Professor Carroll explained.

Before the bang

In his presentation, the Caltech astronomer explained that by creating a Big Bang from the cold space of a previous universe, the new universe begins its life in just such an ordered state.

The apparent direction of time - and the fact that it's hard to put a broken egg back together - is the consequence.

Much work remains to be done on the theory: the researchers' first priority will be to calculate the odds of a new universe appearing from a previous one.

In the meantime, the team have turned to the results from WMAP.

Detailed measurements made by the satellite have shown that the fluctuations in the microwave background are about 10% stronger on one side of the sky than those on the other.

Sean Carroll conceded that this might just be a coincidence, but pointed out that a natural explanation for this discrepancy would be if it represented a structure inherited from our universe's parent.

Meanwhile, Professor Carroll urged cosmologists to broaden their horizons: "We're trained to say there was no time before the Big Bang, when we should say that we don't know whether there was anything - or if there was, what it was."

If the Caltech team's work is correct, we may already have the first information about what came before our own Universe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7440217.stm

Science has yet again decided that we aren't insignificant enough as it is and the creation of everything is now nothing more than a silent fart that doesn't even smell

comments? slander? accusation of where parent universe has been all these years? lynching of scientists and the burning of all technical information involving physics?

Lynching of scientists and the burning of all technical information involving physics?
I hate physics. :mad:

Somehow, this proves and disproves God's existence.

Let the arguing begin....NOW:

That's pretty damn cool. Especially the bit about universe creation being something that would be unspetacular in the parent universe.

I LOVE science! This is fantastic stuff. I eagerly await more on this.

Zilam: Well, conceivably if our universe was forcibly created in the parent universe by some sentient species, then that species would technically be God...

But on the other hand it's just as possible our universe simply budded off at random. Since we obviously don't know enough about this yet this is all just speculation.

Science has yet again decided that we aren't insignificant enough as it is and the creation of everything is now nothing more than a silent fart that doesn't even smell


If I'm not mistaken this theory isn't all that new. I didn't bother to read much of the article so I don't know what new evidence has arisen to suggest it but I have been suspecting this one to be right for quite some time.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, some guy is actually trying to create a universe in his basement...

Anyway, this is great news. It may make you feel insignificant, however, it suggests there may be a way to avoid our inevitable destruction as the universe goes stone cold.

(the article probably said all of that, punishment for my laziness I guess)

I hate physics. :mad:

the universe used to be so much fun before some thugs from the maths department decided that life wasn't complicated enough :mad:

Somehow, this proves and disproves God's existence.

if God does exist it means hes a fat bastard :D

That's pretty damn cool. Especially the bit about universe creation being something that would be unspetacular in the parent universe.

it seems rather predictable if you ask me

If I'm not mistaken this theory isn't all that new. I didn't bother to read much of the article so I don't know what new evidence has arisen to suggest it but I have been suspecting this one to be right for quite some time.


Not exactly what the same though. What you're talking about is speculation, whereas the article is simply pointing out the first evidence that could support such a hypothesis.

There is a universe in my pants!

Not exactly what the same though. What you're talking about is speculation, whereas the article is simply pointing out the first evidence that could support such a hypothesis.

Right, that's what I suspected. It just turns out I probably made a lucky guess with this one a little while ago. It was just one of those theory's that just "sounds right" to me.

All that I was saying is that the theory itself isn't new, just to clarify.

It is interesting to see where this research will lead. If there is anyway to create and harvest energy from or go into these universes then we get a free ride past a cold miserable existence in the degenerate era.

There is a universe in my pants!

*Activates Large Hadron Collider* ;)

*Activates Large Hadron Collider* ;)

*Looks for the higgs boson*

I read Carroll's article in Scientific American, which was basically a more in-depth retelling of this article. It was interesting; I had always assumed the single direction of time was an intrinsic part of what time was, but apparently that's not necessarily so.

It's curious how physicists can get so much information out of the CMB map. (WMAP, I believe it's called.) I'm secretly hoping all we know about the beginnings and shape of the universe are really just the result of one scientist reheating his soup a little too close to the radio telescope.

Somehow, this proves and disproves God's existence.

Let the arguing begin....NOW:

Did I miss the first round?

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/forum/popcorn.gif

I read Carroll's article in Scientific American, which was basically a more in-depth retelling of this article. It was interesting; I had always assumed the single direction of time was an intrinsic part of what time was, but apparently that's not necessarily so.

It's curious how physicists can get so much information out of the CMB map. (WMAP, I believe it's called.) I'm secretly hoping all we know about the beginnings and shape of the universe are really just the result of one scientist reheating his soup a little too close to the radio telescope.

WMAP is the mapping system, it's a satellite based telescope. I realize (or at least I hope) that you're mostly kidding, but that scientist would have to be heating his soup...in space.

WMAP is the mapping system, it's a satellite based telescope. I realize (or at least I hope) that you're mostly kidding, but that scientist would have to be heating his soup...in space.

Those tricky astronauts!

Those tricky astronauts!

Hehe

Those tricky astronauts!

maybe it wasn't a toilet after all :eek:

Did I miss the first round?

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/forum/popcorn.gif
The universe wasn't big enough for protagonist AND antagonist .... if you came looking for annihilation, you've not found it. Curious, no?

Science has yet again decided that we aren't insignificant enough as it is and the creation of everything is now nothing more than a silent fart that doesn't even smell

As long as there are happy people in the world, the point hasn't quite gotten across :p

There is a universe in my pants!

And here I thought you were just happy to see us.

*Activates Large Hadron Collider* ;)

I think you reversed two letters there.

damn this forums lack of a "shifty eyed guy" smiley.

And here I thought you were just happy to see us.The initial expansion rate was COLOSSAL, but the rest kinda petered away into oblivion. :(

damn this forums lack of a "shifty eyed guy" smiley.
Ohnoyoudin't. Actually entitled "shifty-eyed smilie" on my fav's
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/1370.gif

It's the quasi-chrono tachyal bosons, I tell ya!

"Their model suggests that new universes could be created spontaneously from apparently empty space. "

Matter spontaneously arising from nothing. Doesn't sound very scientific, no matter how many 25-dollar words are used to explain it.

Somehow, this proves and disproves God's existence.

Indeed. We already knew that the Biblical Creation story is complete and utter bullshit* - but at least God can still be behind it ;)

*It is saddening that so many Creationists cannot accept the very simple "if the basis of your belief has been shown to be wrong, maybe you should find another belief" concept.

So our observable Universe accounts for only 5% of all matter, whereas dark Matter accounts for 95%. Is there a possibility that this 95% forms the much larger Universe, which maybe has features that are beyond our imagination? Perhaps the Multiverse theory is the reason why our Universe is becoming more and more insignificant.

Clearly since I proceed from order to disorder, I must be the universe in Ifreann's pants. *nod*

Clearly since I proceed from order to disorder, I must be the universe in Ifreann's pants. *nod*

That's why they're so itchy.

"Their model suggests that new universes could be created spontaneously from apparently empty space. "

Matter spontaneously arising from nothing. Doesn't sound very scientific, no matter how many 25-dollar words are used to explain it.

Well, I imagine that's why they used the word "apparently", no?

Matter spontaneously arising from nothing. Doesn't sound very scientific, no matter how many 25-dollar words are used to explain it.

Happens all the time, actually, just in much smaller amounts. When you get down into the subatomic particle range and smaller, the laws of physics get a little wacky. Which is probably why I like it so much. :)

Zilam: Well, conceivably if our universe was forcibly created in the parent universe by some sentient species, then that species would technically be God...


What if the parent universe is actually a Kardashev scale IV species, and our entire universe is just a big battery for them? :eek:

What if the parent universe is actually a Kardashev scale IV species, and our entire universe is just a big battery for them? :eek:

Somewhere, someone or something just went, 'Shit! They're onto us!'

I guess this still means that, from the perspective of our universe, there is no such thing as "before the big bang"...

Time does not exist anyway :P

I guess this still means that, from the perspective of our universe, there is no such thing as "before the big bang"...

Time does not exist anyway :P

Of course it does. It just isn't linear. *nod*

What if the parent universe is actually a Kardashev scale IV species, and our entire universe is just a big battery for them? :eek:

To me the Bible lays out the notion that God is an alien race. One single leader with a bunch of "angels". Sounds very suspicious. We could have been a experiment gone awry or as you say a big battery. Reminds me of MIB where at the end the alien is playing marbles with our universe.

I wonder if it's possible for this universe to split into two.

Clearly since I proceed from order to disorder, I must be the universe in Ifreann's pants. *nod*How come you get to get into Ifreann's pants and I don't?

Now I'm fearful about where I walk.....I could be stomping thousands of bubbling infant universes to death. That could explain that weird popping noise I've been hearing lately

Man, got to like the second paragraph before...

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/nickclaw/HeadExplode.gif

At least from the article in the OP, it seems they're basing a lot of this idea upon the concept of entropy, order to disorder, etc. I have to say, I still don't really get that. It seems to me there is no specific order - > disorder or disorder -> order trend; we went from singularity (ordered) to a gigantic spread (disordered uniformity) to gathered clumps (not uniform but still orderly). Perhaps the concept of orderliness is different in physics, which wouldn't surprise me, but I fail to see how, say, the move from an asteroid/gas cloud surrounding a star to properly orbiting planets is a move away from order.

The universe is stranger than we can imagine...

The universe wasn't big enough for protagonist AND antagonist .... if you came looking for annihilation, you've not found it. Curious, no?

I wasn't looking for annihilation... Butt kicking on a cosmic scale? yes. Annihilation? no.

not into the whole 'to the death and beyond' type of sport.

The universe is stranger than we can imagine...

True.

http://www.boomspeed.com/looonatic/kleinbottle.jpg

True.

<snip img>

Where do you get these pictures?

Where do you get these pictures?

Family reunions?

That article put a big smile on my face. And not a sarcastic one, either.

Family reunions?

The guy's name is DR. I.M. Goofballs III. I suspect an uncle.

Where do you get these pictures?

I am drawn to silliness. It's my gift. :)

The universe is stranger than we can imagine...

or rather (as science is discovering) horrifyingly mundane and most likely the Ned Flanders of everything :(

or rather (as science is discovering) horrifyingly mundane and most likely the Ned Flanders of everything :(

It's both stranger than anything you can possibly imagine and more horribly mundane than even Ned Flanders at the same time. These strange and wonderful things happen in and around us, but we're never able to notice them.

And just think, a universe could be well on its way to completion in your penis!

It's both stranger than anything you can possibly imagine and more horribly mundane than even Ned Flanders at the same time. These strange and wonderful things happen in and around us, but we're never able to notice them.

honestly knowing science in about 20-30 years everything we currently think will be a load of bollocks anyway:p

And just think, a universe could be well on its way to completion in your penis!

she said she was clean! :mad:

Somewhere, someone or something just went, 'Shit! They're onto us!'
Now you're assuming that a bunch of primates on a silly little planet could be a threat to Type IV civilization according to the Kardashev scale. Maybe we could file a formal complaint, but that's probably about it.

or rather (as science is discovering) horrifyingly mundane and most likely the Ned Flanders of everything :(

Mundane would be the Newtonian physical model...this is something else.

Happens all the time, actually, just in much smaller amounts. When you get down into the subatomic particle range and smaller, the laws of physics get a little wacky. Which is probably why I like it so much. :)

Sometime, I think it was around 1920, a group of physicist got together and said, "You know what? Atoms are really small. Let's just all get drunk, write down the first ideas that pop into our heads, and base subatomic physics on that." And lo, there was quantum mechanics. You can still see the napkin where Schrödinger scribbled his famous equations and then promptly vomited on in the Copenhagen Science Museum.

Mundane would be the Newtonian physical model...this is something else.

the whole "its so large you could never comprehend it" and "its so small you could never comprehend it" seems like something you would tell to a child who keeps asking awkward questions if you ask me ;)

I love this subject. It is so interisting.:)

I love this subject. It is so interisting.:)

well many people love it when the big bang gets proved wrong, for starters maybe it can kill off the poor joke about it. (just think about it for a while big bang and anything else which has a big bang in it, yes it's that bad)
and that's 'interesting' to you buddy and yes it is.;)

Science has yet again decided that we aren't insignificant enough as it is and the creation of everything is now nothing more than a silent fart that doesn't even smell
At least we live in a polite Universe, then, and not one of those boorish ones that let off like a fog horn in the middle of dinner and then spend five minutes laughing and telling everyone what they ate for lunch.

Manners matter, even for galaxies!