NationStates Jolt Archive

Next Saturday the show starts. Warm-up games have begun, team forms are starting to become apparent, players have been selected, others stupidly hurt themselves. What is clear is that this is one of the most open and closely-contested tournaments for some time.

I made a fantasy league for people to join, send me a TG for the code you need to get in. The website is http://en.fantasy.euro2008.uefa.com/, the group's name is "NSG". It was good fun when Alien Born organised one for the World Cup 2 years ago, so I encourage everyone to have a go.

Let's keep things updated with news, comments, thoughts and bets.

And as a question to kick things off: do you think Cannavaro's injury hurts Italy's chances of winning?

EDIT: Results so far

Group Stages

Group A

Czech Republic 1:0 Switzerland
Portugal 2:0 Turkey
Czech Republic 1:3 Portugal
Switzerland 1:2 Turkey
Switzerland 2:0 Portugal
Turkey 3:2 Czech Republic

1. Portugal
2. Turkey
3. Czech Republic
4. Switzerland

Group B

Austria 0:1 Croatia
Germany 2:0 Poland
Croatia 2:1 Germany
Austria 1:1 Poland
Poland 0:1 Croatia
Austria 0:1 Germany

1. Croatia
2. Germany
3. Austria
4. Poland

Group C

France 0:0 Romania
Holland 3:0 Italy
Italy 1:1 Romania
Holland 4:1 France
Holland 2:0 Romania
France 0:2 Italy

1. Holland
2. Italy
3. Romania
4. France

Group D

Greece 0:2 Sweden
Spain 4:1 Russia
Sweden 1:2 Spain
Greece 0:1 Russia
Greece 1:2 Spain
Russia 2:0 Sweden

1. Spain
2. Russia
3. Sweden
4. Greece

Quarter Finals

Portugal 2:3 Germany
Croatia 1:1 Turkey - 2:4 after penalties
Holland 1:3 Russia
Spain 0:0 Italy - 4:2 after penalties

Semi Finals

Germany 3:2 Turkey
Russia 0:3 Spain

Final

Germany 0:1 Spain

Spain
wins
Euro2008

I can't wait for this even though England are not in the finals. I'm backing Portugal this year.

Onto Cannavaro's injury, it will hurt the Italian side because he is such an influential player however the Italians have more than enough talent to cover for him.

Holland for teh winz.

Holland for teh winz.
It's a bit of a tough ask though. I assume France is going to come out of the group, which leaves it between Italy and Holland.

It's hard to say, but you'd have to admit that the odds are in favour of the former.

I'm backing Spain. Much like Holland or Portugal, I daresay they won't actually win, however, hope springs eternal.

It hasnt even started yet, and im already completely fed up with the anoying orange flags, commercials, advertisements, etc etc.

Next EK: undisclosed time, undisclosed location !

And as a question to kick things off: do you think Cannavaro's injury hurts Italy's chances of winning?I don't know; would losing the captain and most important player on a team be detrimental?

I'm backing Spain. Much like Holland or Portugal, I daresay they won't actually win, however, hope springs eternal.Greece, man, Greece.

Greece, man, Greece.

Dull, man, dull. I could have cried when Greece won; what they term "limited attack" was in fact crude long ball football.

Do you support Greece or Rehhagel?:p
Well, me too.

But it's more likely that Italy,France or Germany will win this one.
Well maybe Spain or Netherlands too.
Or Portugal or Chech Republic:p

Well maybe Greece too, but chances are too thin, for a second euro in a row.
Personally, I'll be happy if Greece makes it to the finals.

crude long ball football

Hehee yeah, but it worked :rolleyes:

Dull, man, dull. I could have cried when Greece won; what they term "limited attack" was in fact crude long ball football.I cheered, along with the rest of Munich =D
Do you support Greece or Rehhagel?:p
Well, me too.Actually, I probably won't be fully supporting Greece until Germany is out of the race, which might not happen this time.

Actually, I probably won't be fully supporting Greece until Germany is out of the race, which might not happen this time.

Sounds fair.

I cheered, along with the rest of Munich =D


Wonderful. Unfortunately, football at large considered Greece an abomination.

Wonderful. Unfortunately, football at large considered Greece an abomination.Probably still does, only "football" constitutes a minority of fandom.

lol, I'm gonna go for Romania...

...nothing's better than backing the underdog

...or Croatia...

Wonderful. Unfortunately, football at large considered Greece an abomination.

Nah, the team merely applied pragmatism to football:rolleyes:

Hehee yeah, but it worked :rolleyes:

It did, although I confess to hoping a genuine football team replete with talent hammered you. As, I daresay, one will this time.

It did, although I confess to hoping a genuine football team replete with talent hammered you. As, I daresay, one will this time.

What can I say?
May the best team win.

Where are you from btw?

Probably still does, only "football" constitutes a minority of fandom.

More a consensus of journalists, the more admired coaches and players, and erudite fans. It is disturbingly easy to tribalistically support a team on the grounds that one has a hereditary or geographical association with it, or simply because they are an "underdog".

Nah, the team merely applied pragmatism to football:rolleyes:

A pragmatic desire to win, however such a victory is acquired, over beauty or anything more abstract. How delightful.

What can I say?
May the best team win.

Where are you from btw?

Which isn't Greece. You are little short of an embaressment.

Suffice to say I'm a United fan.

Which isn't Greece. You are little short of an embaressment.

Suffice to say I'm a United fan.

Have no objection on that. Who said I have?

A pragmatic desire to win, however such a victory is acquired, over beauty or anything more abstract. How delightful.

If you think that the players are playing for the beaty of football, you are obviously deluted.

More a consensus of journalists, the more admired coaches and players, and erudite fans. Ah, yeah, the "Soccer Experts". Their opinions don't really matter though.
It is disturbingly easy to tribalistically support a team on the grounds that one has a hereditary or geographical association with it, or simply because they are an "underdog".You should try. It's fun! =D

Ah, yeah, the "Soccer Experts". Their opinions don't really matter though.
You should try. It's fun! =D

Specialist opinions are of far greater significance than the drink sodden, emotionally incontinent oaf proclaiming his support for "Engerland" or the underdog.

A pragmatic desire to win, however such a victory is acquired, over beauty or anything more abstract. How delightful.
Only the result matters.


Somehow I've come to prefer winning tactics over personal artistry, especially as in football the latter tends to include extreme amounts of bad balance, co-ordination and reffing if someone gets near you. :p

If you think that the players are playing for the beaty of football, you are obviously deluted.

They play for money, and the worthwhile players take pleasure in the football they produce; take Messi, Kaka or Ronaldinho as an example.

They play for money, and the worthwhile players take pleasure in the football they produce; take Messi, Kaka or Ronaldinho as an example.

Agreed. But if they had to choose between winning and playing artistically, what would they choose?

Specialist opinions are of far greater significance than the drink sodden, emotionally incontinent oaf proclaiming his support for "Engerland" or the underdog.Nope.

Huh? They were playing against Portugal. And Portugal fielded Christiano Ronaldo, who belongs on a stage, not a soccer field.

Ronaldo is a good player, but is arrogant and inexperienced. He's very young though.

OMG I'm warping again:o

A pragmatic desire to win, however such a victory is acquired, over beauty or anything more abstract. How delightful.Huh? They were playing against Portugal. And Portugal fielded Christiano Ronaldo, who belongs on a stage, not a soccer field.

Yeah but you note that Ronaldo wasn't so globally noticed as he is now...

Personally I'm backing Germany, you seen what they did in the World Cup under Klinsmann, now Löw has come in and continued what Klinsmann left off, they have an excellent chance.

Lahm on the wing, if he can score like the first one in the WC, then should make an interesting EC this year.

Underdog wise, however, I think Croatia can do something, and Romania might give them a scare.

The France/Holland/Italy thing... It's tough, but I can see Holland and Italy coming through

I am having a blond moment - i have registered on the predictor site but haven't found the page to actually select the team:(

Anyone help me??

Huh? They were playing against Portugal. And Portugal fielded Christiano Ronaldo, who belongs on a stage, not a soccer field.

Best player in the world, bar Messi. In any case, Portugal are far more than merely Ronaldo; Deco, Nani, Miguel Veloso, Joao Moutinho, Jose Bosingwa, Carvalho, Maniche etc.

Best player in the world, bar Messi.He lacks the sportsmanship aspect, making him an utter failure as a player.

He lacks the sportsmanship aspect, making him an utter failure as a player.

I wouldn't call 40 goals a failure myself, and I think, behind Russia, Portugal have the best chance of winning :D

Ronaldo is a good player, but is arrogant and inexperienced. He's very young though.

OMG I'm warping again:o

Inexperianced? How?

He may only be 23, however, he has been playing first tier football for 6 years.

Also, arrogance is good. No great sportsman does not have a certain arrogance about them.

He lacks the sportsmanship aspect, making him an utter failure as a player.

Most sportsmen are far from the gentlemanly paragons we would aspire to.

I wouldn't call 40 goals a failure myself, and I think, behind Russia, Portugal have the best chance of winning :DThere's more to being a player than shooting goals.
Most sportsmen are far from the gentlemanly paragons we would aspire to.Oh, sure. Continuously throwing yourself on the ground to get an undeserved penalty is a low that most of them won't stoop to, though.

The only way Italy is going to win it is if they cheat like they did in the World Cup.

Inexperianced? How?

He may only be 23, however, he has been playing first tier football for 6 years.

Also, arrogance is good. No great sportsman does not have a certain arrogance about them.

True, I guess, but he has the arrogance of someone who has accomplished waaay more than he has.

Also, arrogance is good. No great sportsman does not have a certain arrogance about them.Pride. Arrogance is a bad thing. But I've noticed you revel in that vice as well, so I can see why you'd want to justify it.

Even though I'm a Liverpool supporter, I still like Ronaldo for some reason, he brightens up the Premiership somewhat, why couldn't he play for the Reds. :(

It's a toughie this one but I think it will be a fairly predictable Germany-France final.

I think Italy will go out in the group.

The Dutch don't have a great defense, Portugal have a good chance but I don't think they have the mentality, I'd love Spain to finally win something but don't hold out much hope.

In overall team strength, France and Germany are the most complete teams.

Oh, sure. Continuously throwing yourself on the ground to get an undeserved penalty is a low that most of them won't stoop to, though.

While he still appeals to the referee far too much for my liking instead of playing to the referee, Ronaldo doesn't dive anywhere as much as he used to. Maybe he goes down easily if he is fouled, but I don't see how that is a problem, you don't want him to win a free kick, then don't foul him. (obviously not you personally....unless you're really a preimership player in disguise :p ).

Being N.irish and hence not having team in the tournament, I'm going for Portugal, Cech Republic and Turkey.

The only way Italy is going to win it is if they cheat like they did in the World Cup.

:confused:
What match you are referring to?

If you think that the players are playing for the beaty of football, you are obviously deluted.We do.

Well, we try it.

At least that's what we say.

Pride. Arrogance is a bad thing. But I've noticed you revel in that vice as well, so I can see why you'd want to justify it.

Quite the opposite. Arrogance is a belief, bordering on conviction, that one can do something, however difficult or outrageous; much like the "magic ball" Warne bowled Gatting, or Zidane's volley in the 2002 Champions Legaue final.

There's more to being a player than shooting goals.
Oh, sure. Continuously throwing yourself on the ground to get an undeserved penalty is a low that most of them won't stoop to, though.

Like appealing for a wicket you know full well isn't out, or not walking when one has nicked the ball, or claiming a try you know was in touch? Can't think of any great sportsmen to have done that....

Quite the opposite. Arrogance is a belief, bordering on conviction, that one can do something, however difficult or outrageous; much like the "magic ball" Warne bowled Gatting, or Zidane's volley in the 2002 Champions Legaue final.Nah, what you're talking about is conviction. Arrogance is about carrying it too far and being a jackass to other people about it.
Like appealing for a wicket you know full well isn't out, or not walking when one has nicked the ball, or claiming a try you know was in touch? Can't think of any great sportsmen to have done that....Continuously? And these are as likely to generate goals as a penalty kick?

While he still appeals to the referee far too much for my liking instead of playing to the referee, Ronaldo doesn't dive anywhere as much as he used to. Quite honestly, it shouldn't be done at all. I remember him doing plenty during the world cup.

Being arrogant, apart from the obvious dislike that brings, affects his performance on the field. When he is over-confident and underestimates his opponent and wants to do a fancy trick, than choose the easy way of passing which most likely will have a better result, and then he loses the ball, then apparently being that confident has a bad effect on his playing.

Maybe he'll grow out of it eventually, but I don't think so.

Check it...Poland :P

The English should back us up too, I mean we'll take over when another wave of plumbers comes.

I do not like that Donadoni did not call Montolivo, he took an extra forward for no reason...Borriello is never gonna play...at least Montolivo could have offered fantasy off the bench (solid back-up to Pirlo). as far as Cannavaro goes, it sucks b/c I suspect Donadoni will play Panucci in the middle, and Panucci is garbage. I'd much ratehr see Gamberini get the nod...he had an outstanding season with Fiorentina this year.

I'm worried about Romania...my guess will be Italy (b/c I'm a fan) and Romania. I think France will flop b/c Domenech is a moron (no Trezeguet? Frey 2nd string goalie?). Should be Holland advancing imo, but I'm a Fiorentina fan, and I can't but hope to see Adrian Mutu do well.

:confused:
What match you are referring to?

Australia vs. Italy quarter final. They won the match because one of their players (name escapes me it dosen't matter because most Italians are cheats, which we see in all sports they participate in) took a dive in the penalty box at the end of the game, the stupid referee gave a penalty kick which one them the game and allowed them to proceed to the finals. I am not saying Australia should be in the final instead but Italy should never have won the World Cup and the only way they did was because they cheated.

Australia vs. Italy quarter final. They won the match because one of their players (name escapes me it dosen't matter because most Italians are cheats, which we see in all sports they participate in) took a dive in the penalty box at the end of the game, the stupid referee gave a penalty kick which one them the game and allowed them to proceed to the finals. I am not saying Australia should be in the final instead but Italy should never have won the World Cup and the only way they did was because they cheated.
He didn't dive. He didn't do everything he possibly could have done to stay on his legs, but in the position he was in there isn't a professional footballer in the world who would.

Fact of the matter is that it was a bad tackle in a bad place and at a bad time. Lucas Neill should have known better than that, and I'm not saying this because I have great love for Italian football.

He didn't dive. He didn't do everything he possibly could have done to stay on his legs, but in the position he was in there isn't a professional footballer in the world who would.

Fact of the matter is that it was a bad tackle in a bad place and at a bad time. Lucas Neill should have known better than that, and I'm not saying this because I have great love for Italian football.

Neill hardly touched him, and yes he could have stayed on his feet he may have stumbled but he didn't have to go down and you could tell that he didn't even try to stay up, and that my friend is a dive. It was hardly a bad tackle, perhaps you should watch the game again traitor:)

Neill hardly touched him, and yes he could have stayed on his feet he may have stumbled but he didn't have to go down and you could tell that he didn't even try to stay up, and that my friend is a dive. It was hardly a bad tackle, perhaps you should watch the game again traitor:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS6Wqt00gTc&NR=1

This one has a few angles on it. Fact of the matter is that Neill made a mistake and that it was a bad tackle. He shouldn't have gone down if he wasn't sure he was going to get the ball. As for whether or not he would have been able to stay on his feet...well, it would have been hard. I don't think Neill intentionally used his hand, but fact of the matter is that Grosso would not have been able to stay on his feet and go after the ball. Yes, it wasn't a 100% clear-cut penalty, but I don't blame the ref for giving it.

As for the Italians, after they kicked out Australia, they beat Germany in the semis in similarly heart-breaking circumstances, which meant they ended the campaigns of both my teams. Nonetheless, in both games they were clearly the better side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS6Wqt00gTc&NR=1

This one has a few angles on it. Fact of the matter is that Neill made a mistake and that it was a bad tackle. He shouldn't have gone down if he wasn't sure he was going to get the ball. As for whether or not he would have been able to stay on his feet...well, it would have been hard. I don't think Neill intentionally used his hand, but fact of the matter is that Grosso would not have been able to stay on his feet and go after the ball. Yes, it wasn't a 100% clear-cut penalty, but I don't blame the ref for giving it.

As for the Italians, after they kicked out Australia, they beat Germany in the semis in similarly heart-breaking circumstances, which meant they ended the campaigns of both my teams. Nonetheless, in both games they were clearly the better side.

No he did go for the ball Grosso was already going down before any contact was made. You can see that from the link that he posted regardless of what the Italian wrote. And you can see before he is even down he has his hand up signialling to the ref and when he is down he has this big smile on his face because he knows that he has successfully been able to cheat Italy into getting a free shot on goal. The referee was sent home by FIFA after that appaling game.

And same here Italy knocked out my two teams as well, and I think Germany should have played in the final as they would have beaten Australia.

No he did go for the ball Grosso was already going down before any contact was made.
He wasn't going down, he was changing direction while simultaneously finding that there was something in front of his feet that he had to somehow get around.

And you can see before he is even down he has his hand up signialling to the ref and when he is down he has this big smile on his face because he knows that he has successfully been able to cheat Italy into getting a free shot on goal.
I don't think anybody claims it was a particularly painful foul or that there was any risk of injury. You also find that sometimes people smile sarcastically.

I don't know what he was thinking at the time, but I'm fairly sure a penalty wasn't what he set out to get when he had the ball and that he was nonetheless happy to accept it when the opportunity came along.

The referee was sent home by FIFA after that appaling game.
That's not actually true. He was one of 12 that went on, he officiated the Brazil v France quarterfinal and was the fourth official in the final (being the only ref who saw Zidane lose his cool).

That's not to say he is a great ref, but I stand by my statement that it was perfectly givable and the Italians would have been very, very unlucky not to get the penalty.

Onto Cannavaro's injury, it will hurt the Italian side because he is such an influential player however the Italians have more than enough talent to cover for him.

...looks like we're fielding "Matrix" Materazzi in Cannavaro's place. Great choice. if he can manage to avoid red cards. The other central defender will be Barzagli, and Chiellini as second choice.

I do hope that coach Donadoni will let Del Piero play more than he did in the last two years. He's the best scorer of the italian league (the "capocannoniere", literally "chief gunner"), and that's something, being 34 and beating people like Trezeguet, Totti (although he was injured in the last matches)...

EN-GER-LAND, EN-GER-LAND, EN-GER-

...er...

I'll get my coat.

Actually, I'm delighted they didn't qualify. It means we won't have to put up with months of 'we're going to win the cup', followed by being knocked out by San Marino Under 5's B team, followed by months of the normal complaints, sackings etc.

it dosen't matter because most Italians are cheats, which we see in all sports they participate in

About cheating in sports:

from wiki: list of doping in sports,

usa 142
france 44
uk total above 30 iirc
italy 29 iirc
australia 26 iirc

put it in proportion with the population, let's see who the cheats are.

guess what I think you can do with your comment about italians being cheats... :p

...looks like we're fielding "Matrix" Materazzi in Cannavaro's place. Great choice. if he can manage to avoid red cards. The other central defender will be Barzagli, and Chiellini as second choice.

I do hope that coach Donadoni will let Del Piero play more than he did in the last two years. He's the best scorer of the italian league (the "capocannoniere", literally "chief gunner"), and that's something, being 34 and beating people like Trezeguet, Totti (although he was injured in the last matches)...

I don't like Barzagli one bit...Palermo's defense was far from a guarantee this year.

About cheating in sports:

from wiki: list of doping in sports,

usa 142
france 44
uk total above 30 iirc
italy 29 iirc
australia 26 iirc

put it in proportion with the population, let's see who the cheats are.

guess what I think you can do with your comment about italians being cheats... :p

There is more to cheating than just doping, thank you very much. And I could list countless times where one Italian team has cheated in just one sport, so how bout you take back my comment on those cheating latin bastards and do it to your self.

He wasn't going down, he was changing direction while simultaneously finding that there was something in front of his feet that he had to somehow get around.


I don't think anybody claims it was a particularly painful foul or that there was any risk of injury. You also find that sometimes people smile sarcastically.

I don't know what he was thinking at the time, but I'm fairly sure a penalty wasn't what he set out to get when he had the ball and that he was nonetheless happy to accept it when the opportunity came along.


That's not actually true. He was one of 12 that went on, he officiated the Brazil v France quarterfinal and was the fourth official in the final (being the only ref who saw Zidane lose his cool).

That's not to say he is a great ref, but I stand by my statement that it was perfectly givable and the Italians would have been very, very unlucky not to get the penalty.

You can give me all these bullshit reasons you want, you can tell his body was heading down, and if he wasn't of Latin descent he would have jumped over the player recovered the ball and had a shot on goal. The fact of the matter is is that he saw an opportunity to dive and he took it knowing full well that he would get the penalty and more than likely the win. You know it I know it most people know it and he knows what that he took a dive, which won them the world cup in the end.

I have seen footage of Italian teams practicing their dives during training, to say that they don't dive is ridiculous. And no I can't be bothered to go look for it and show it to you, I am sure you would come up with some excuse anyway.

The slur against Latin types while is generally true, is not a racist comment but an observation because that is their style, to cheat they would argue bend the rules but it is still cheating and not in the spirit of the game, just like they do in plenty of other sports they compete in.

There is more to cheating than just doping, thank you very much. And I could list countless times where one Italian team has cheated in just one sport, so how bout you take back my comment on those cheating latin bastards and do it to your self.


Please keep your temper... Someone could be offended by your wording.

Please make this list. I'd really like to read it.


Anyways...
Lol, in Italy they used to say that Pavel Nedved had long hair because it looked more dramatic when he "dived".

I don't think the Italians are any worse than any other nationality. I've seen the replys, it doesn't matter is Grosso was Italian, English, French or Japanese, he would still probably have gone to ground to get the penalty.

I don't think the Italians are any worse than any other nationality. I've seen the replys, it doesn't matter is Grosso was Italian, English, French or Japanese, he would still probably have gone to ground to get the penalty.Italians are the poster boys for exaggerating when fouled. They're skilled soccer players, but unfortunately have the tendency to introduce a particular element that has the potential to ruin the fun for people watching.

Italians are the poster boys for exaggerating when fouled. They're skilled soccer players, but unfortunately have the tendency to introduce a particular element that has the potential to ruin the fun for people watching.

Every nation has the same reputation - Klinsmann, Ronaldo, Drogba etc. Remember Rivaldo at the World Cup who fell and clutched his face when the ball hit his knee:)

Us Brits are getting better at it too

Nah, what you're talking about is conviction. Arrogance is about carrying it too far and being a jackass to other people about it.
Continuously? And these are as likely to generate goals as a penalty kick?

Arrogance is precisely what I detailed, and nothing more.

And yes, most great cricketers perpetually cheat; give one can only really cheat in regard to wickets, this is just as likely to result in an advantage as a penalty. As, for that matter, is claiming a try.

Italians are the poster boys for exaggerating when fouled. They're skilled soccer players, but unfortunately have the tendency to introduce a particular element that has the potential to ruin the fun for people watching.

Every nation is; Klinnsman was a prime exponent, as was Rivaldo, Deco, Simeone and countless others. Only the naive expect anything else.

I've joined the league with the Magnificent 11. Fear Smitty Werbermanjensen. :p

Diving is an offense that is punished by a yellow card, much like many fouls. Is fouling considereded cheating?

We all hate to see diving just like we hate to see fouls, but its part of the game and it is up to the referee to see it and punish it. Hardly cheating. Doping is cheating, paying the refs is cheating. Fouls are part of the game. Diving, unfortunately, is part of the game.

Get over it.

The slur against Latin types while is generally true, is not a racist comment but an observation because that is their style, to cheat they would argue bend the rules but it is still cheating and not in the spirit of the game, just like they do in plenty of other sports they compete in.

You're rather naive to think that only 'Latin types' bend the rules, there are people from every nation that are willing to do anything to win.

And define the 'spirit of the game'.

Arrogance is precisely what I detailed, and nothing more.

And yes, most great cricketers perpetually cheat; give one can only really cheat in regard to wickets, this is just as likely to result in an advantage as a penalty. As, for that matter, is claiming a try.Contradiction in terms =P

Every nation is; Klinnsman was a prime exponent, as was Rivaldo, Deco, Simeone and countless others. Only the naive expect anything else.Every nation is? The phrase "Italian soccer star" never crossed your path?

Diving is an offense that is punished by a yellow card, much like many fouls. Is fouling considereded cheating?

We all hate to see diving just like we hate to see fouls, but its part of the game and it is up to the referee to see it and punish it. Hardly cheating. Doping is cheating, paying the refs is cheating. Fouls are part of the game. Diving, unfortunately, is part of the game.

Get over it.Is stopping a ball with your hand when you're not a goalie considered cheating or is it considered dangerous?

Is stopping a ball with your hand when you're not a goalie considered cheating or is it considered dangerous?

Dangerous?

It's a foul. It's the referee's job to punish it. I'd get pissed at the referee if he misses it.

I am cheering for Italy and Romania; between those two, I think the former's more likely to go somewhere. (And actually, I'm thinking Italy and the Netherlands will take their group, so that'll end Romania right there, but we'll see.)

Otherwise, Russia is my other random preference. :p But it's really Italy that I'm hoping will carry through to the finals.

Quite honestly, it shouldn't be done at all. I remember him doing plenty during the world cup.

I agree, I don't like diving either but the only ones that gets called on it in the preimership is Ronaldo and Drogba. It's not fair on Ronaldo because there loads of players who dive a lot more than he does. Steven Gerrad has dived a lot more than Ronaldo this season.

Also can I point out how pleased I am that Larsson is going to the euros with sweeden. I stayed out of the whole Celtic-Rangers thing because it's a bit messy over here but I loved larsson. I was so happy when united got him on a loan deal.

Dangerous?

It's a foul. It's the referee's job to punish it. I'd get pissed at the referee if he misses it.Yeah, but is it foul play because it's cheating or is it foul play because it's dangerous behavior?

I agree, I don't like diving either but the only ones that gets called on it in the preimership is Ronaldo and Drogba. It's not fair on Ronaldo because there loads of players who dive a lot more than he does. Steven Gerrad has dived a lot more than Ronaldo this season.Could be, could be. I don't watch Premiere League for obvious reasons =P
Most of what I see is in the Cups, and from the Euro Cup in Portugal til the World Cup in Germany Ronaldo was the primary offender.

Yeah, but is it foul play because it's cheating or is it foul play because it's dangerous behavior?

How is it dangerous?

In any case, I feel wholly entitled to disregard your opinions apropos Ronaldo given that you base them on what amounts to 6 games of football, whereas I have watched European football at large for over 5 years. Ignorant speculation based on limited evidence, and nothing more.

How is it dangerous?What, a dive? You think a dive is dangerous and not cheating?
<snip>I ignore your opinions based on your generally faulty judgement :)

I think I made my distinction clear. If it's sanctionable by a ref, it isn't cheating. If a higher power needs to get involved, it's cheating.

Same in any sport.

Diving, as an intentional hand ball, or as a last man foul from behind, may be unsportsman-like but not cheating. They are penalties that may occur in the heat of the moment and that do not involve any planning ahead.

I think I made my distinction clear. If it's sanctionable by a ref, it isn't cheating. If a higher power needs to get involved, it's cheating.

Same in any sport.If you get caught cheating by a ref, its not cheating? What do you call it then?

The reason stuff gets punished is so that players don't do it. With reckless tackles it's because they're likely to cause serious injury. With things like dives and hand play it's because it's an attempt to manipulate the game in ways it shouldn't, i.e. cheating. Both types are considered foul play, but for different reasons.

Fine its cheating. Italy should be stripped of their 4th star for a questionable penalty call. Grosso was obviously diving. There was 0 contact.

If you are done derailing the thread, tell us who you root for.

Germany?

Fine its cheating. Italy should be stripped of their 4th star for a questionable penalty call. Grosso was obviously diving. There was 0 contact.http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/ulteriormotives/Drama20Queen.jpg
If you are done derailing the thread, tell us who you root for.

Germany?Of course! :D
Also Greece, as a secondary choice.

But I don't see how a discussion on soccer is derailing a thread on soccer...

I'm sure that we can both agree that Italy has never had the need to cheat when defeating Germany in countless occasions throughout history. ;)

Could be, could be. I don't watch Premiere League for obvious reasons =P
Most of what I see is in the Cups, and from the Euro Cup in Portugal til the World Cup in Germany Ronaldo was the primary offender.

Yeah, World Cup 06, he would still have been diving a lot. It's only the last 2 seasons that he's cleaned up his act. Coincidently that when he started scoring for fun :p.

BRAZIL!!!1!!1111!!!1one1!!!

Just wait and see!

I'm sure that we can both agree that Italy has never had the need to cheat when defeating Germany in countless occasions throughout history. ;)
Thank you.

Fact of the matter is that Italy was totally dominating the game against Australia, and it never looked like the Socceroos were going to win it. We can argue about the circumstances, and did, but ultimately it wasn't an undeserved win, just like the semi against Germany wasn't.

And now let's get back to the current issues. I noticed in the warm-up games that not a whole lot of goals were being scored. France v Ecuador and Spain v US were both 1:0 just recently. I hope that doesn't continue into the tournament...Italy won the WC by being very defensive early on, there might be a chance that many coaches will have taken a similar stance this time round.

most Italians are cheats

those cheating latin bastards

:rolleyes:


Someone could be offended by your wording.

Thanks, VM. Actually, I am a bit offended by the petty racism that guy is spitting. Envy of pizza, I guess.

Italy won the WC by being very defensive early on, there might be a chance that many coaches will have taken a similar stance this time round.

Well, about defensive play, it might be interesting to note that this year, too, the italian league was won by the team with the best defense (Inter this year), and, as usual, not by the team who scored the most goals (Juventus this year).

Like the grand jedi master Trapattoni uses to say, "Primo: Non prenderle" (First rule: do not take 'em). Ich habe fertig!

Thanks, VM. Actually, I am a bit offended by the petty racism that guy is spitting. Envy of pizza, I guess.

Calling someone a cheat for cheating is not racism, however, while it may be viewed as racism I was mearly pointing out the way those of Latin descent play, as opposed to those further North. It is the same as saying that the culture of Middle Eastern nations is to accept money in exchange of support, which some may see as bribes (example FIA and the recent vote on Mosley) is not a racist comment but a observation on how they act.

Please keep your temper... Someone could be offended by your wording.

Please make this list. I'd really like to read it.


Anyways...
Lol, in Italy they used to say that Pavel Nedved had long hair because it looked more dramatic when he "dived".

Have a look at Ferrari in regards to F1, over many years they have cheated in order to get what they want but because they have the FIA marshalls in the hand they get away with a lot of it.

You're rather naive to think that only 'Latin types' bend the rules, there are people from every nation that are willing to do anything to win.

And define the 'spirit of the game'.

Yes but the 'Latin types' where it occurs more often and it is easier to see and no there are plenty others including the Indian Cricket team, which do cheat.

Fact of the matter is that Italy was totally dominating the game against Australia, and it never looked like the Socceroos were going to win it. We can argue about the circumstances, and did, but ultimately it wasn't an undeserved win, just like the semi against Germany wasn't.

Which is entirely beside the point, they still cheated to win, and just goes to show how far the Italian team will go to ensure they win a game when they have all the play. It is just like a team I played on the weekend, Budapest FC, they are in Div two we had a hell of a lot of injuries so we brought upa bunch of Div 5 players, there was no way we could win this game yet the amount of dives, handballs and reckless tackles showed that they would still cheat even when they were 3 goals up they continued to do this. Thankfully the referee was of good standard (a rare thing to see in our league) and dealt with them quite often handing out 1 red and four yellows.

Have a look at Ferrari in regards to F1, over many years they have cheated in order to get what they want but because they have the FIA marshalls in the hand they get away with a lot of it.
Ferrari in F1 doesn't actually cheat. They exloit loopholes in the rules where they notice them, but they don't break the rules. McLaren did.

Yes but the 'Latin types' where it occurs more often and it is easier to see and no there are plenty others including the Indian Cricket team, which do cheat.
Everyone does whatever they can to win. There is big money and pride at stake. There is only one cricketer I can think of who will walk, and he's a special sort and very different from his team.

Which is entirely beside the point, they still cheated to win, and just goes to show how far the Italian team will go to ensure they win a game when they have all the play.
Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

All professional football players will fall easily in the box.

That is because in most cases the expected return of doing so is greater than the expected return of trying to go after a ball. In Grosso's case, there was a positive probability he'd get a penalty, and since there was actual contact and Neill had missed the tackle by some margin (so that he couldn't claim as convincingly that he went for the ball), that probability was quite high. The alternative would have been to somehow jump over Neill while the ball was already rolling towards another Australian defender. Chances are that Grosso would not have been able to get the ball, which meant that Neill's mistimed tackle would have served to physically stop Grosso from continuing his run by making a barrier of his body, which we could also call "cheating" if we wanted to. It is the job of the defender to time the tackle properly to make sure that the risk of a penalty is as low as possible.

All this holds true for all players, everywhere. There is no correlation between this and the player's descent. The footage you say you saw of people practicing diving under their manager's instruction came from Arsenal, not Italy.

It is just like a team I played on the weekend, Budapest FC...
1) Romania =/= Latin.
2) Anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything.

Italy won the tournament because they had a brilliant coach, who was able to train his team to play tournament football. They got through by not conceding goals, and at the right moment they suddenly added the sort of forward momentum that they sometimes didn't have before when they needed it, namely in the game against Germany. And that's the last I will say on this matter. There's a another tournament starting soon I'm very much looking forward to, and there'll be enough controversy to moan about then.

Ferrari in F1 doesn't actually cheat. They exloit loopholes in the rules where they notice them, but they don't break the rules. McLaren did.

1997? But exploiting loopholes is near enough to cheating you can come up with some reason, it is still not playing in the spirit of the sport or of the rules. And the only reason Mclaren was fined was because they did it against Ferrari had it been any other team the punishment would not have been anywhere near as harsh as it was, Mclaren didn't cheat a member of the organisation was given information by a former Ferrari employee yet that information was not used in the cars, they were punished because Ferrari has the FIA in their hands. Brazil 2007 is a prime example, two cars were found to have used illegal fuel yet because it didn't hinder a Ferrari and actually helped them they were not penalised.

Everyone does whatever they can to win. There is big money and pride at stake. There is only one cricketer I can think of who will walk, and he's a special sort and very different from his team.

Its still cheating. Which cricketer is that?

Why is this so difficult for you to understand?

All professional football players will fall easily in the box.

That is because in most cases the expected return of doing so is greater than the expected return of trying to go after a ball. In Grosso's case, there was a positive probability he'd get a penalty, and since there was actual contact and Neill had missed the tackle by some margin (so that he couldn't claim as convincingly that he went for the ball), that probability was quite high. The alternative would have been to somehow jump over Neill while the ball was already rolling towards another Australian defender. Chances are that Grosso would not have been able to get the ball, which meant that Neill's mistimed tackle would have served to physically stop Grosso from continuing his run by making a barrier of his body, which we could also call "cheating" if we wanted to. It is the job of the defender to time the tackle properly to make sure that the risk of a penalty is as low as possible.

All this holds true for all players, everywhere. There is no correlation between this and the player's descent. The footage you say you saw of people practicing diving under their manager's instruction came from Arsenal, not Italy.

Neill actually went for the ball, that is not cheating, just because there is a greater chance of getting a goal from diving in the box then not dosen't mean it is alright

1) Romania =/= Latin.
2) Anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything.

Italy won the tournament because they had a brilliant coach, who was able to train his team to play tournament football. They got through by not conceding goals, and at the right moment they suddenly added the sort of forward momentum that they sometimes didn't have before when they needed it, namely in the game against Germany. And that's the last I will say on this matter. There's a another tournament starting soon I'm very much looking forward to, and there'll be enough controversy to moan about then.

1) No it doesn't but those people from around that area posses the same sort of traits.
2) No it doesn't

Yes they won the tournament for those reason, and may have done any way there was no need to cheat to win it, as it was a knockout game and in they won it off a back of a dive because if he wanted to he didn't have to fall he fell because he wanted to, because he wanted to ensure the win, but playing outside the spirit of the game and of the rules is not noble and should be considered cheating.


You are right there is another tournament coimng up. GO GERMANY.

What, a dive? You think a dive is dangerous and not cheating?
I ignore your opinions based on your generally faulty judgement :)

So, the fact you're a bland, condescending and homogenously "nice" NSGer notwithstanding, do you have anything worthwhile to add?

Oh good. Another tournament, another chance to be depressed for two years when my team bombs out pathetically.

Oh good. Another tournament, another chance to be depressed for two years when my team bombs out pathetically.

You got further than Northern Ireland anyway :(

So, the fact you're a bland, condescending and homogenously "nice" NSGer notwithstanding, do you have anything worthwhile to add?

'Bland' is your word of the moment, isn't it?

I would say that you seem to be getting out of bed on the wrong side recently, but you seem to have fallen out of bed, through the floor, into a pot of boiling water in the kitchen below, before rolling outside into the path of a passing elephant pride parade.

I would say that you seem to be getting out of bed on the wrong side recently, but you seem to have fallen out of bed, through the floor, into a pot of boiling water in the kitchen below, before rolling outside into the path of a passing elephant pride parade.
While desperately clutching a thesaurus.

I vote Portugal. Best coach and best player. A great team too :)

I vote Portugal. Best coach and best player. A great team too :)

I still think Italy-Cannavaro are better. Or Spain. Casilias has been briliant this year and so had Fernando Torres

I still think Italy-Cannavaro are better. Or Spain. Casilias has been briliant this year and so had Fernando Torres

I don't believe in Spain. Every time they are favourites and every time they get nowhere.

I don't believe in Spain. Every time they are favourites and every time they get nowhere.

It is an unfortunate thing for Spain, they have a good team, however, they lack discipline to be able to compete as a team and that seems to let them down. I think it may be a culture thing, for the team not the country for anyone who was ready to jump down my throat again.

The BBC is really backing Spain this time. On paper, they're right, Spain has one of the strongest teams there, and certainly the best they've had for some time.

But just like when they looked brilliant in the group stage of the World Cup and then collapsed in the knock-outs, that seems to be a poor indicator of Spanish performance. I mean, eventually surely a team that good has to win something, but I'm not putting my money on it.

I'll still enjoy watching them though.

Brazilian press always says that the Spanish problem is that they have so much foreigners playing in their home league that they don't have enough good Spanish players.

But once this is also true in almost every European league, I guess it's just lack of focus.

I love their uniform, though :)

The BBC is really backing Spain this time. On paper, they're right, Spain has one of the strongest teams there, and certainly the best they've had for some time.

But just like when they looked brilliant in the group stage of the World Cup and then collapsed in the knock-outs, that seems to be a poor indicator of Spanish performance. I mean, eventually surely a team that good has to win something, but I'm not putting my money on it.

I'll still enjoy watching them though.

Neither Fabregas nor Torres bring the excellence to the national team that they do for clubs. Added to that, Spain's defense, aside from Casillas, isn't too hot. This is a problem for Holland as well, great attack, great midfield but on paper only and defense for both is questionable.

I still say Germany and France are the likely finalists, anything can happen but consistency, on average, tells.

Italy have a great chance but they're pretty old, my gut feeling is that they don't make it out of the group of death.

On a fairly sick note, someone pointed out that the real group of death is Poland, Germany, Austria and Croatia.

:eek:

It is an unfortunate thing for Spain, they have a good team, however, they lack discipline to be able to compete as a team and that seems to let them down. I think it may be a culture thing, for the team not the country for anyone who was ready to jump down my throat again.

spain had the same problem as the another loser, england. their leagues are good but dominated by foriegn players. also, the media is over estimated their players.
every time we heard how great they are and how this time they will go all the way, but still both countries together had two titles (england 66's world cup and spain 60's euro), anothe euro final for spain at 1984, and 3 semi finals for england.
they aren't closed to any good team combined.

I think germany will take that one.

The BBC is really backing Spain this time. On paper, they're right, Spain has one of the strongest teams there, and certainly the best they've had for some time.

But just like when they looked brilliant in the group stage of the World Cup and then collapsed in the knock-outs, that seems to be a poor indicator of Spanish performance. I mean, eventually surely a team that good has to win something, but I'm not putting my money on it.

I'll still enjoy watching them though.
I'm not all that knowledgeable on the Spanish team but I think Fabegras is a little overrated and I'm wondering how good a tournament Torres is going to have. He can be fairly quiet when he's playing against the top teams. That said they still have Villa. (Although I'm gutted Bojan didn't make the squad).

Neither Fabregas nor Torres bring the excellence to the national team that they do for clubs. Added to that, Spain's defense, aside from Casillas, isn't too hot. This is a problem for Holland as well, great attack, great midfield but on paper only and defense for both is questionable.

I still say Germany and France are the likely finalists, anything can happen but consistency, on average, tells.

Italy have a great chance but they're pretty old, my gut feeling is that they don't make it out of the group of death.

On a fairly sick note, someone pointed out that the real group of death is Poland, Germany, Austria and Croatia.

:eek:

I hope that Italy don't make it out of the group. They bored me to death in the world cup.
I think France have a good chance, although like Italy, they have quite an old team. I'm glad trezegut didn't make the squad for them.
I don't think they'll win it but I'm wondering how Sweden are going to do. I think they could be surprise quater or semi-finalists.

... This is a problem for Holland as well, great attack, great midfield but on paper only and defense for both is questionable.

I still say Germany and France are the likely finalists...

I can see France ok....

but how can you see Germany there with such a weak goalie - yet stressing that a solid defense is key? How can you call the Netherlands defense weak when van der Saar (and his defense) allowed only 0.25 goals per match in the qualifiers - by far the lowest value of all teams?

While desperately clutching a thesaurus.
Let's be honest here, the only reason the thesaurus hasn't permanently bound itself to his skin is because he has to keep flicking through the pages.

I'll be supporting Spain and the Netherlands, just because. And they'll probably meet in the quarter-finals where Spain will convincingly win (and promptly lose in the semis) or lose in heartbreaking fashion. If the Dutch go through they'll then play whichever of Italy or France they lost to in the group, and will lose again, probably on penalties.

It'll be like England are there! :)

@ NL: I've TG'd you for the password.

Hmmm, I wonder whether this all counts as a good thing...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,557983,00.html
...Siegenthaler is the Swiss chief scout for the German national team. He initiated this match analysis project ahead of the 2006 World Cup. At that time, the students were able to find out, among other things, how Argentinean strikers prefer to take penalty shootouts.

Now the 36 students under football lecturer Jürgen Buschmann have analyzed the 15 other teams participating in the Euro 2008. In addition to counting how many times each player has possession of the ball, they have also evaluated the situations based on Siegenthaler's criteria. They have put together a roughly 80-page handbook for each team, providing German national team trainer Joachim Löw with information about their strengths and weaknesses. DVDs with match scenes are included.

The dossiers also include information about which injuries Poland's center forward had, whether an Austrian defender will be keen to shine at Euro 2008 because he is on the lookout for a new club, and what expectations Croatians have of their national side.

The goal is to discover what the German team can expect in this European Championship. Which players can it expect to be matched up against? Which playing systems are preferred? And who is playing offensively or defensively?

Based on their research, the Cologne analysts can also make predictions about what audiences can expect at this year's championship. "Most of the teams are so strong that they are focusing on their own capabilities," says Buschmann. In other words, they will not attempt to disrupt their opponents' games, but instead will concentrate on their own game...

Anyways, the article is interesting.

This is a problem for Holland as well, great attack, great midfield but on paper only and defense for both is questionable.

I seem to recall hearing from a top international coach that the Netherlands don't have a great team spirit they always sit in their own little groups, if it is true then there is one one of their biggest problems.

I seem to recall hearing from a top international coach that the Netherlands don't have a great team spirit they always sit in their own little groups, if it is true then there is one one of their biggest problems.

Actually, apparently this year this isn't a problem. You're right, they mostly go into competitions at each other's throats but they're oddly pretty content so time.

Great. I just found out that most of the games will only be shown in Australia on a special channel on pay-TV that you have to buy additionally. That means that the person I had planned to go to to see some of the games will probably not be able to see them either.

So now the only thing I can think of is the "German club" on the other side of town. In other words, if I want to see the games I'll have to drive all the way through the city in the middle of the night.

Goddammit SBS, just pay the man and buy the damn rights already! :(

Great. I just found out that most of the games will only be shown in Australia on a special channel on pay-TV that you have to buy additionally. That means that the person I had planned to go to to see some of the games will probably not be able to see them either.

So now the only thing I can think of is the "German club" on the other side of town. In other words, if I want to see the games I'll have to drive all the way through the city in the middle of the night.

Goddammit SBS, just pay the man and buy the damn rights already! :(

At least you've got cricket on terrestrial television.

Why would you want cricket?

Why would you want cricket?

Because, oddly enough, I like it. It's an opinion derived from subjective personal tastes.:rolleyes:

Great. I just found out that most of the games will only be shown in Australia on a special channel on pay-TV that you have to buy additionally. That means that the person I had planned to go to to see some of the games will probably not be able to see them either.

So now the only thing I can think of is the "German club" on the other side of town. In other words, if I want to see the games I'll have to drive all the way through the city in the middle of the night.

Goddammit SBS, just pay the man and buy the damn rights already! :(

I feel for you. I'm missing the Cech Republic-Switzerland game and the Portugal-Turkey match today and I'm gutted. Plus I have exams for the next 2 weeks.

Because, oddly enough, I like it. It's an opinion derived from subjective personal tastes.:rolleyes:

Nobody likes cricket. It's quite dreadful.

Nobody likes cricket. It's quite dreadful.

Really? Odd, but a billion Indians, the rest of the commonwealth notwithstanding, would disagree.

Really? Odd, but a billion Indians, the rest of the commonwealth notwithstanding, would disagree.

Indians are nutters, though. They needed their own beer, that better IPA crap.

Well, looks like the Czechs should win this one. Better attacking play + a packed midfield when the Swiss get the ball means that they won't concede and are likely to score eventually. Not that they've had any particularly noteworthy chances so far.

I've noticed that most of Switzerland's good build-up play has come down their right, so Frei being injured shouldn't really affect that too much. Still fancy the Czechs to win it - Baros can come off the bench and bag a couple seeing as he's in my fantasy team. :p

I've noticed that most of Switzerland's good build-up play has come down their right, so Frei being injured shouldn't really affect that too much.
They're having a Swiss ex-referee co-commentate on TV here and he was very despondent about Frei being injured. He said he's practically irreplaceable because he's so important for the team in all kinds of respects.
And another commentator guy said it looked like it's most likely some tendon thing that'll keep him out of commission for at least 6-8 weeks.
Poor Frei and poor Swiss, that just sucks incredibly much. Championship in your country, first game...

Indians are nutters, though.
So's everyone in the commonwealth.
They needed their own beer, that better IPA crap.
Pfft. IPA is excellent when very chilled.

The Swiss had some great chances, but that one fuck up defensively deflated their balloon. The young kid they brought on for Frei was doing well too, I thought they had a shot.

Pfft. IPA is excellent when very chilled.
So it's like Magners - lovely when you can't taste it.

The Swiss had some great chances, but that one fuck up defensively deflated their balloon. The young kid they brought on for Frei was doing well too, I thought they had a shot.
Hakan Yakim is not a young kid. :p

Anyways, I stayed up until bloody 4am in the morning to watch the Czechs force themselves through 90 minutes of what amounted to not very much at all. I could've gone to bed and I wouldn't have missed a thing. And of course, they didn't show the Portugal game. Worse, it doesn't look like even the German club will be showing the Germany games. It looks like there is actually no way for me to watch the matches. :headbang:

Anyways, the Czechs didn't look like they're contenders at all.

Hakan Yakim is not a young kid. :p

Compared to Jan Koller he is. :p All I remember them saying was he was up and coming, I guessed he was young. How old is he?

Anyways, the Czechs didn't look like they're contenders at all.

They looked very reticent. Content to play the Swiss game, not theirs, it seemed. Maybe if they become more comfortable with themselves and the tournament, they might have a shot.

How old is he?
31.

They looked very reticent. Content to play the Swiss game, not theirs, it seemed. Maybe if they become more comfortable with themselves and the tournament, they might have a shot.
I think it was because they were missing Rosicky, and therefore had no one to set up play. The Swiss on the other hand were doing quite well in midfield.

And on a positive note, I may be able to watch the Germany match tonight over the internet.

Yay, internet!

Specialist opinions are of far greater significance than the drink sodden, emotionally incontinent oaf proclaiming his support for "Engerland" or the underdog.

This is true.

I actually agree with a dirty manc...the worlds coming to an end....

Well, that was allright. Should've been 4:0 at least, but hey.

I think the German defense was still not decisive enough for my liking sometimes, but I really like Podolski in midfield.

Not a bad day for my fantasy team either.

Well, that was allright. Should've been 4:0 at least, but hey.

I think the German defense was still not decisive enough for my liking sometimes, but I really like Podolski in midfield.

Not a bad day for my fantasy team either.
It could easily have been four - a pretty comfortable win though. I thought Portugal were unlucky not to get more than two yesterday, too, since they also looked pretty comfortable.

I'm looking forward to the next couple of days' games, so I can see how the rest of the field are playing (and also because the vast majority of my fantasy team has yet to play :p)

Well, that was allright. Should've been 4:0 at least, but hey.

I wanted to shoot Gomez then and there after that early miss, but I realized it was a difficult shot on the replay. :p

I think the German defense was still not decisive enough for my liking sometimes, but I really like Podolski in midfield.

I was surprised at how well Podolski played from midfield. I also was surprised by his second goal because the satellite for ESPN must have gone out right as they had a chance. :p First I see a Polish free kick, two minutes of black, and celebrating Germans. Happy and angry at the same time. :D

I was surprised at how well Podolski played from midfield.
Back when he first started he played in midfield. When Schweinsteiger wasn't doing anything and Ballack was injured, Löw just tried it, and everybody was happy with the result. Basically, expect him to be a midfielder now rather than a striker.

Back when he first started he played in midfield. When Schweinsteiger wasn't doing anything and Ballack was injured, Löw just tried it, and everybody was happy with the result. Basically, expect him to be a midfielder now rather than a striker.

Good to know. I never can follow German football properly form here in the States. . .

Great. I just found out that most of the games will only be shown in Australia on a special channel on pay-TV that you have to buy additionally. That means that the person I had planned to go to to see some of the games will probably not be able to see them either.

So now the only thing I can think of is the "German club" on the other side of town. In other words, if I want to see the games I'll have to drive all the way through the city in the middle of the night.

Goddammit SBS, just pay the man and buy the damn rights already! :(

Tell me about it, at least my local has Sentana on TV, surely there must be some pubs near by that have it Leon.

This had better not happen for the World Cup, Rudd better place it on the Free to air register.

So's everyone in the commonwealth.

Pfft. IPA is excellent when very chilled.

I fear I am taking this thread away from Football for a minute but please let me clear a few things up.
Firstly Cricket is brilliant. Millions round the world watch it fervently and those that don't only don't because they do not understand the intricacies and endeavour that it takes to become a cricket player.

Secondly IPA is so called because when beer was brewed in the UK it was off by the time the boat reached India or the alcohol had dissipated to such an extent the beer was insipid.
IPA was developed to be brewed stronger so that by the time it reached the Subcontinent it had indeed weakened, but due to it having started out stronger it was more drinkable. That is why most IPA's with the exception of Deuchars and that horrendous Greene King sludge tend to be stronger beers. A tradition that the Aussies (Little Creatures) and Americans (Can't think of a name) have continued to this day, but being the alcy bastards that they are, they drink it fresh at the higher ABV.

Back to football, Deutschland Uber Alles.

AMK
xxx

Thus far, I'm happy with Portugal. They looked ominously good against Turkey, as, much to my delight, did Ronaldo.

as, much to my delight, did Ronaldo.

he's really quite good isn't he?

AMK
xxx

he's really quite good isn't he?

AMK
xxx

Oh yes. Best player I've seen for United.

Oh yes. Best player I've seen for United.

he played for United? I thought he was an England player... it would be easy to think that the way the Beeb and ITV go on.

AMK
xxx

Holland leads Italy 2:0 at half time.

The first goal was offside if you ask me, but hey. The Dutch deserved it, because the Italians basically had no posession and were doing nothing in midfield.

Which just goes to show how unappreciated Andrea Pirlo is. One only notices him when he's not doing anything.

Holland leads Italy 2:0 at half time.

The first goal was offside if you ask me, but hey. The Dutch deserved it, because the Italians basically had no posession and were doing nothing in midfield.

Which just goes to show how unappreciated Andrea Pirlo is. One only notices him when he's not doing anything.
Meh. I wrote off Italy's chances once Cannavaro got crocked. The Dutch are good value for their lead though, and I fancy more goals in the second half. Their second is goal of the tournament so far (that'd be out of the seven goals scored...).

The first goal was offside if you ask me, but hey. The Dutch deserved it, because the Italians basically had no posession and were doing nothing in midfield.

As I have learnt: Any opposing player can neutralize an offside. He doesn't have to be inbounds the field. Such as the one italian player who was knocked down by Buffon in the attack just before. (The reason is of course that a player could choose to leave the field to put a player into offside and this would be unsportsmanlike).

I love that Toni saw yellow for complaining about this rule.

As I have learnt: Any opposing player can neutralize an offside. He doesn't have to be inbounds the field. Such as the one italian player who was knocked down by Buffon in the attack just before. (The reason is of course that a player could choose to leave the field to put a player into offside and this would be unsportsmanlike).

I love that Toni saw yellow for complaining about this rule.
Yes, he does, considering the rule states that

A player is in an offside position if:
• he is nearer to his opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the
second last opponent

unless you're going to argue that this counts both sides of the goal line (which would be interesting as technically a player is not active if they are not within the boundaries of the pitch, so would be disregarded in any offside decision).

Being out of bounds makes the goalie the second last popponent.
That's very important, there is no word about what positional is doing what, only the "second last opponent" (could be two strikers who decide whether it's offside or not, when the goalie decides to take a stroll :) )

Edit: wording

Well, that was...interesting. Holland looked like probably the best team so far, and they've got depth too. I might have to change my tune about them.

So here we go:

Group A
Portugal
Czech Republic
Turkey
Switzerland

Group B
Germany
Croatia
Poland
Austria

Group C
Holland
France (just because they tend to start slow I'm gonna give them the nod)
Italy
Romania

Group D
Spain
Russia
Sweden
Greece

Quarter Finals

Portugal v Croatia
Germany v Czech Republic
Holland v Russia
Spain v France

Semi Finals

Portugal v Germany
Holland v France

Finals

Germany v Holland

I think that Germany will lose against Portugal, but else I think along Neu Leonstein's bet (well, not so much with the third and fourth in the groups, but with the rest).

Holland leads Italy 2:0 at half time.

The first goal was offside if you ask me, but hey. The Dutch deserved it, because the Italians basically had no posession and were doing nothing in midfield.

Which just goes to show how unappreciated Andrea Pirlo is. One only notices him when he's not doing anything.

In the end it was a good win for Holland. They're counterattacking was excellent, probably the best way to beat italy because unless you catch them on the break, they're going to retain their shape pretty well and it will be hard to play through them.
I think Italy loosing and France drawing as blown the group wide open. Holland obviously stand the best chance to go through but the 2nd spot that could be intresting. I think Romania have a chance to get through but it would depend on the other results in their group.

I'm sure that we can both agree that Italy has never had the need to cheat when defeating Germany in countless occasions throughout history. ;)

We can agree that out of the four times that Italy won the WC, only one time they didn't have a fascist goalie (or absolut idiot goalie if he really didn't know that the "88" he requested as a number is iconic for Nazis)

ORANJE BOVEN !!! ORANJE BOVEN !!!!!!

I think that Germany will lose against Portugal, but else I think along Neu Leonstein's bet (well, not so much with the third and fourth in the groups, but with the rest).
Well, it's hard to really extrapolate from that particular setting, but the last time the two teams met was in the game for third place at the World Cup, and Germany won it convincingly. Granted, the Portugese team is better now, but so are the Germans.

As for Group C, the French already have an extra point over the Italians, which is gonna make a big difference. But it'll ultimately come down to who wins the match between the two now. The Dutch seem too strong to me to give up any points.

As for Group D, I'm just going with the theory that there's always an "underdog" making it out of the group stages, and Hiddink is as good a coach as any to provide it.

I think Hiddink is *the* coach to make underdogs advance (South Korea: Semifinal - although they cheated out Italy, Australia: cheated out by Italy in return)

Now, be forewarned, these are from the Yankee who hasn't watched international soccer since the World Cup (though I did see Man U vs. Chelsea a month or so ago). I just read some previews and went with my hunches.

In 2006 I had Portugal over Germany (both got to the semis...decent picks).

Well, here goes...

Group A

1. Portugal – 7 points - A tie against the Czechs.
2. Czech Republic – 5 points - A tie against Portugal and the home Swiss.
3. Switzerland – 4 points
4. Turkey – 0 points

Group B

1. Germany – 7 points - Pretty easy pick...a tie against the Croats.
2. Croatia – 5 points - A tie against Poland and Germany.
3. Poland – 4 points - Not as good as they looked.
4. Austria – 0 points - So much for home field advantage.

Group C

1. Holland – 9 points - As good as they looked...blazing through the Group stage.
2. France – 6 points - Wins against the falling Azurri and the Romanians.
3. Italy – 3 points - Ouch
4. Romania – 0 points

Group D

1. Spain – 9 points - This won't be their year, but they can easily win this group.
2. Greece – 6 points - Enough momentum from their easy quals and 2004...
3. Sweden – 3 points - Just an unlucky draw for the Swedes.
4. Russia – 0 points

Quarterfinals

Portugal over Croatia 1-1 (5-4 PK) - I really like Croatia (for some reason), but Portugal is better.
Germany over Czech Republic 3-2 - The Germans push past the Czechs.
Greece over Holland 2-1 - Upset special...the Greeks try to push their defense as far as possible, toppling the high-flying Dutch.
Spain over France 2-0 - So much for Les Bleus.

Semifinals

Portugal over Germany 3-1 - Should have been the World Cup 2006 final...
Spain over Greece 2-2 (4-2 PK) - The Greeks come close to another Final berth, but fall just short.

UEFA Euro 2008 Final

Portugal over Spain 1-0 - Cristiano Ronaldo scores the only goal for the Portuguese, as they finally break through against their neighbors.

Group A

1. Portugal – 7 points - A tie against the Czechs.
2. Czech Republic – 5 points - A tie against Portugal and the home Swiss.
<snip>
The Czechs beat the Swiss on Saturday, so your predictions look a little iffy from that point on ;)

Well, it's hard to really extrapolate from that particular setting, but the last time the two teams met was in the game for third place at the World Cup, and Germany won it convincingly. Granted, the Portugese team is better now, but so are the Germans.

As for Group C, the French already have an extra point over the Italians, which is gonna make a big difference. But it'll ultimately come down to who wins the match between the two now. The Dutch seem too strong to me to give up any points.

.

Romania beat Holland 2-0 in the qualifiers. It's possilbe that the dutch might drop points there although its unlikely. I could see Romania beating Italy though. They play pretty well on the counter-attack and they looked dangerous at points against France. (Although I am desperately hoping for an upset and that might be colouring my interpretation :p ).

In the end it was a good win for Holland. They're counterattacking was excellent,

This is the thing that pisses me off... Italy is supposed to be the master at defense and counterattack... and gets flattened by "total play" NL who use defense and counterattack this time.

Ironic, I'd say.

btw Donadoni is a moron... he fucked the whole match up for Italy. chose the wrong formation (Abrosini? AMBROSINI instead of De Rossi?), let Del Piero in too late in the second half - while he should have let him in after the 2-0... well... too bad.

Holland were looking hot tonight based on the BBC replays (though the first goal was offside clearly), and France looked terrible in every final pass/shot.

The first goal was no offside, please see the top of the page (11)

I was not expecting Holland to win 3-0, maybe 2-1. Best match of the euros so far. Things have started getting exciting.

unless you're going to argue that this counts both sides of the goal line (which would be interesting as technically a player is not active if they are not within the boundaries of the pitch, so would be disregarded in any offside decision).

actually, the italian TV journalists remembered that a similar thing happened in the italian championship a couple of years ago, and the situation was judged by the ref as offside; a subsequent ruling by the italian referees' committee, though, changed interpretation, judging that the defender outside the pitch was to be counted as last defender. The thing is that, that time, the defender out of the pitch was standing and active, and not, like in this case, knocked down, hence inactive, so another ruling might be useful.

(anyway NL won fair and square, I might add).

I was not expecting Holland to win 3-0, maybe 2-1. Best match of the euros so far. Things have started getting exciting.

Very true. The Dutch look quite good actually, not that I'm changing my Portugal prediction.

Finals

Germany v Holland
Oh dear. *is glad this isn't last year's WC, in that case*

Oh dear. *is glad this isn't last year's WC, in that case*
I reckon it's about time another chapter gets added to that particular epic.

Overall, I support:
1. Russia
2. Czech Republic
3. France

Group A:
Czech Republic

Group B:
Croatia

Group C:
France

Group D:
Russia

My Predictions:
Group A:
Czech Republic
Portugal

Group B:
Germany
Croatia

Group C:
Italy
France

Group D:
Spain
Russia

Quarters:
Czech Republic vs Croatia
Germany vs. Portugal
Italy vs. Russia
Spain vs. France

Semis:
Czech Republic vs. Portugal
Italy vs. France

Final:
France vs. Czech Republic

Netherlands beating Italy made my day! :D

Group C:
Italy
France
That's a brave bet. It'll look impressive if it works out, but it seems the odds are stacked against it.

Overall, I support:
1. Russia
2. Czech Republic
3. France

Group A:
Czech Republic

Group B:
Croatia

Group C:
France

Group D:
Russia

My Predictions:
Group A:
Czech Republic
Portugal

Group B:
Germany
Croatia

Group C:
Italy
France

Group D:
Spain
Russia

Quarters:
Czech Republic vs Croatia
Germany vs. Portugal
Italy vs. Russia
Spain vs. France

Semis:
Czech Republic vs. Portugal
Italy vs. France

Final:
France vs. Czech Republic

Netherlands beating Italy made my day! :D

I like your prediction on the final match :fluffle:

As far as I've heard van Nistelrooy wasn't offside. This is a quote from here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/jun/09/euro2008.euro2008groupc2)

Yet more Fifa rulebook fun Eric Calhoun cites law 11.11 in the rulebook - under advice to referees. "A defender who leaves the field during the course of play and does not immediately return must still be considered in determining where the second to last defender is for the purpose of judging which attackers are in an offside position," he says. "Such a defender is considered to be on the touch line or goal line closest to his or her off-field position. A defender who leaves the field with the referee's permission (and who thus requires the referee's permission to return) is not included in determining offside position." To be fair, that does seem pretty categorical. Either way you can be absolutely certain that this story's going to run and run in Italy ...

As far as I've heard van Nistelrooy wasn't offside.
And I'm happy with that. Ultimately it's unfortunate, because the Italian defense probably thought he was - but it was a goal that was justified given the way the game was going...and the other two were all the fault of the Italian defense. Cannavaro missing hurt them a lot in that game, if you ask me.

Well done Holland. :p
You made my day.

Christ, the Dutch win one game and everyone thinks they're off to the finals, it's not as if the Dutch are known for playing some great football and then blowing it in either the quarters or semis.

I think France better make sure they at least draw with Holland, really dumb not to have scored against Romania. Italy are still breathing.

Christ, the Dutch win one game and everyone thinks they're off to the finals, it's not as if the Dutch are known for playing some great football and then blowing it in either the quarters or semis.
It's the way they won the game that matters. In the first half, they were basically in charge of midfield and the Italians didn't get a look in. Once they'd scored the Italians needed to come out, which allowed the counter, but only on the basis of a solid defense. And that is considering that Robben for example didn't even play. Hence why I said that their depth is so impressive: they have an incredibly strong bench.

If they blow it, they've got only themselves to blame, because they've basically shown that they have what it takes to go all the way. So yeah, I have to put them on the short list based on that. They won the game against Italy convincingly, and France had a traditionally slow start and didn't take the easiest points their group has to offer, which means that Holland will be holding all the trump cards for the match between the two.

And from then on if the Dutch finish first in their group they won't face anyone as strong in the quarters, and even the semis will likely be against number two of their group (assuming the usual Spanish collapse). So basically in this match Holland built an excellent foundation by playing excellent football. You can understand people's sentiment.

...Ultimately it's unfortunate, because the Italian defense probably thought he was...
This sort of thing -- players not understanding the rules and decisions made under the rules during a match -- seems to happen surprisingly often in football matches. I must admit that my gut reaction when I saw the first goal was that it was offside, but then I'm neither a referee nor a professional footballer.

The Italian defence, on the other hand, are professional footballers and, as such, it is their job to know the rules of the game that they are paid huge amounts of money to play. I don't mean to single out the Italian defence on this since, as I said above, situations like this seem to happen all the time. It just seems a little odd that nobody ever seems to criticise football players for not knowing the rules and regulations affecting their job - in any other field of employment (in this country, at least), they'd face disciplinary measures for lack of competency.

...assuming the usual Spanish collapse...
Ah yes, Spain and their regular collapse :p

I don't know if it's just because I've been affected by the BBC's relentless hyping of them, but I think Spain will do a lot better than this thread has been predicting so far. We shall see :)

The Italian defence, on the other hand, are professional footballers and, as such, it is their job to know the rules of the game that they are paid huge amounts of money to play.

At least this time the italian team is behaving more professionally than usually: in the after-match interviews, no one is blaming the ref for the defeat. (anyway Donadoni is a moron, I like to repeat. moron moron moron)

At least this time the italian team is behaving more professionally than usually: in the after-match interviews, no one is blaming the ref for the defeat
That's true, and may well be because they realised, after seeing replays, that the goal was legal. Sorry for picking on the Italian team for that little tangential rant of mine- they were just the most topical example for what I wanted to say :)

actually, the italian TV journalists remembered that a similar thing happened in the italian championship a couple of years ago, and the situation was judged by the ref as offside; a subsequent ruling by the italian referees' committee, though, changed interpretation, judging that the defender outside the pitch was to be counted as last defender. The thing is that, that time, the defender out of the pitch was standing and active, and not, like in this case, knocked down, hence inactive, so another ruling might be useful.

(anyway NL won fair and square, I might add).

Would not matter. According to the rules that I have laying around here, he was still the last defender be it active or not.

The ESPN soccer reporter needs to learn his rules:

The Dutch were lucky to take a 26th-minute lead after Ruud van Nistelrooy turned in Giovanni van Bronckhorst's effort despite being clearly offside.

...

Holland were lucky to break the deadlock, with Van Nistelrooy in an offside position before tapping the ball past Buffon.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/report?id=232261&league=UEFA.EURO&&cc=5901

Apparently this bozo thought he was offside when any person with any knowledge of the Offsides rule knows that he wasn't.

Spain really are refreshing to watch. Not only are they playing a reasonably offensive formation, but they also lack in the physically impressive, technically limited oafs in vogue in club football (Essien, Drogba, Bouba Diop et al.).

Provided they neither collapse, nor suffer from the usual bout of stupid refereeing, they should at least reach the semis.

Spain really are refreshing to watch.
3-0.

But there's plenty of time in the tournament for Spain to fluff it.

Apparently this bozo thought he was offside when any person with any knowledge of the Offsides rule knows that he wasn't.

Seeing as its impossible to give a full defination of the term offside and this is one of more obscure examples of "offside" than it I don't think its all that obvious.
While I agree that it was offside, if the referee had judged it offside, I think he would have been able to justy that decision.

It's not as open and shut a case as you seem to think that it is.

Seeing as its impossible to give a full defination of the term offside and this is one of more obscure examples of "offside" than it I don't think its all that obvious.
While I agree that it was offside, if the referee had judged it offside, I think he would have been able to justy that decision.

But the Dutch were not offside. That's the point.

It's not as open and shut a case as you seem to think that it is.

I'll stand by the rule book.

But the Dutch were not offside. That's the point.



I'll stand by the rule book.

I'm not saying that weren't offisde. What I'm saying that the rules for offside are very open to interpretation and therefore it is understandable that epsn or whatever news source would (in my opinion, incorrectly) label it as offside.I know that the bbc and itv both did the same thing.
There is a lot of subjectivity in deciding as what counts as offside. There would be a couple of arguments for saying that it is offisde:
1.)The player was removed from the pitch involuntarily and therefore does not keep the player onside.
2.) Even if you accept that the player was technically keeping the player onside, and hence the decision was following the letter of the law, it was not within the spirit of the law. The rule was put in place to put in place to prevent defenders jumping off the pitch and playing a attacker offside.
3.)The linesman was not considering these particular naunces of the offside rule and randomly called van nisteroy onside by accident.

Seeing as there are much discussion of the incident and both uefea and the austria federation of referees have had to come out in support of the decision, I don't think it's as obvious non-controversial decision as you make it out to be.

I'm not saying that weren't offisde. What I'm saying that the rules for offside are very open to interpretation and therefore it is understandable that epsn or whatever news source would (in my opinion, incorrectly) label it as offside.I know that the bbc and itv both did the same thing.

The rule for offsides is that a defender cannot be closer to their opponet's goalline than at least two defenders. The Goalie and the player that was laying out of bounds are two defenders. That ain't no interpretation.

Hmm, in the first minutes the Russians looked like a Hiddink-side: not too overawed, happy to use physical aggression to compensate for a lack in technical skill, and a ultimately a bit unlucky to concede the first goal. The Spanish have two excellent strikers, but to start with I thought they were being too slow to get the ball to them...I suppose that's what you get with a midfield that full of stars.

Anyways, after they conceded the Russian players changed completely. Hiddink was right to take that guy off again after having brought him on only at half time, but it wasn't enough in the end. Spain wins deservedly, but I'm not entirely sure we can glimpse their true form from this: their opposition just wasn't very good.

And the Greeks got what they deserved. Something like five defenders and two defensive midfield players should warrant sending the coach off the pitch.

BASEL, June 10 (Reuters) - Netherlands' controversial first goal in Monday's 3-0 Group C victory over world champions Italy at Euro 2008 was correctly awarded despite many observers believing it was offside, organisers UEFA said on Tuesday.

And now the controversy is over!

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=544855&cc=5901

Gotta love the rulebook :D

And now the controversy is over!
Realistically, there really was no controversy. I said it was offside originally because I didn't see the Italian defender lying there, and because I didn't know that particular rule. Now I've seen the replay and the explanation and I, alongside with everyone else, have changed my original judgement accordingly.

After the defeat of Italy (my least liked team) I am happy to see the Russians ready to pack their things as well. Though I like Hiddinck (just as I like Cannavaro) I think the Russians, who have taken the Song Contest, won ice hockey and have Europe in their pocket with their gas, shouldn't win anything more for the next years. They would become even more .... say convinced with themselves ... to a ....say uncomfortable ... amount.

Go Portugal (One of my two favs) ....
and Turkey just eqalized with a great goal.... wow, what a rainy and very close and emotional match

The rule for offsides is that a defender cannot be closer to their opponet's goalline than at least two defenders. The Goalie and the player that was laying out of bounds are two defenders. That ain't no interpretation.

The interpretation comes in to the intention. The referee is also meant to consider intention behind the player's action. That why if a tackle is obviously cynical it gets a harsher punishment if it was merely a late tackle. If the defender has fallen over injured, then there is obviously no intention to jump off the pitch and play the attacker offside.
There is an argument that it should be treated like there are 10 defending players, not 11 because the other player is injured and not involved in play. If a person is sent off for treatment, then he does not figure in offside decisions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/euro2008/2008/06/you_are_the_ref_special.html
There you go. Thats got a couple of the arguments for and against the decision.
The refree agrees with the decision and so do I. I'm just attempting to point out that it isn't that obvious a decision.

Hmm, in the first minutes the Russians looked like a Hiddink-side: not too overawed, happy to use physical aggression to compensate for a lack in technical skill, and a ultimately a bit unlucky to concede the first goal. The Spanish have two excellent strikers, but to start with I thought they were being too slow to get the ball to them...I suppose that's what you get with a midfield that full of stars.

Anyways, after they conceded the Russian players changed completely. Hiddink was right to take that guy off again after having brought him on only at half time, but it wasn't enough in the end. Spain wins deservedly, but I'm not entirely sure we can glimpse their true form from this: their opposition just wasn't very good.

And the Greeks got what they deserved. Something like five defenders and two defensive midfield players should warrant sending the coach off the pitch.

I loved sweeden's 2nd goal. I think it hit the hansen's right knee, bounced off the post into the back of one of the greek players back onto the other knee of the hansen and then through the legs of the keepers.

Thats a classic!!

The refree agrees with the decision and so do I. I'm just attempting to point out that it isn't that obvious a decision.
Oh, give it a rest. Corny's father has played in a Euro Footie tourny before, no doubt, so he is right. He and the rulebook 11.4.2.
No use saying 'if the rule had gone the otherway, it had been condoned by the UEFA officials also'.
You are talking to a wall.

Oh, give it a rest. Corny's father has played in a Euro Footie tourny before, no doubt, so he is right. He and the rulebook 11.4.2.
No use saying 'if the rule had gone the otherway, it had been condoned by the UEFA officials also'.
You are talking to a wall.

I've made my point, the decision was the correct one so I'll just drop it....wow I'm not being thran...:eek:...and reasonable...:eek:...this is a new experience.

The interpretation comes in to the intention. The referee is also meant to consider intention behind the player's action. That why if a tackle is obviously cynical it gets a harsher punishment if it was merely a late tackle. If the defender has fallen over injured, then there is obviously no intention to jump off the pitch and play the attacker offside.

Except for the fact that his momentum carried him off the pitch.

There is an argument that it should be treated like there are 10 defending players, not 11 because the other player is injured and not involved in play. If a person is sent off for treatment, then he does not figure in offside decisions.

The organization disagreed and stated that the ref in question applied law 11 correctly. Which anyone with knowledge of what constitutes being offsides would agree with.

On this...I can speak with authority.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/euro2008/2008/06/you_are_the_ref_special.html
There you go. Thats got a couple of the arguments for and against the decision.
The refree agrees with the decision and so do I. I'm just attempting to point out that it isn't that obvious a decision.

I'll stay with the rulebook. He left the field of play via momentum and as such constitutes a defender thus rendering the goal scorer onsides.

Oh, give it a rest. Corny's father has played in a Euro Footie tourny before, no doubt, so he is right. He and the rulebook 11.4.2.

My dad has never been an official as far as I know though he did play lacross and baseball.

No use saying 'if the rule had gone the otherway, it had been condoned by the UEFA officials also'.
You are talking to a wall.

:rolleyes:

*grumbles*

We had a pool at work, all got to draw one team out of a hat, winner gets £20.

I pulled out Switzerland.

I officially don't care who wins anymore :p

Croatia is beating Germany 1-0 at the moment? WOW!!!

Croatia is beating Germany 1-0 at the moment? WOW!!!
Two reasons: the Croatians are essentially playing five midfielders most of the time and are leaving the Germans no space to build anything or get the ball where they want it.

Even more importantly, the German defense looks shaky and whenever the Croatians get forward things are dangerous. It could easily have been 3:0 already.

Unless the Germans change their tune, the Croatians fall back a little more and a German chance is converted, this isn't looking good.

GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2-0 in the 62nd minute by Croatia.

GGGGGGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Germany gets on the boardin 79th minute to make it a 2-1 game.

Aw, man, our defense is almost painful to watch.

And that's it!

Croatia Defeats Germany 2-1.

That red for Schweinsteiger was a tad much.

Someone educate me on the rules, pls - will he have to sit out the next game?

That red for Schweinsteiger was a tad much.

Technically I agree it was a bit much but it was in retaliation so I can see the Ref's point on that one but with less than 2 minutes to go in injury time or whatever its called these days? I'm not so sure he should have ejected him.

Someone educate me on the rules, pls - will he have to sit out the next game?

Yes!

Okay, that was odd. I mean, Croatia was obviously the biggest threat in that group, but there was no reason to play that badly. Lehmann was being an idiot, the defense was really weak, the midfield was shut down at will by the Croatians and the strikers couldn't combine and overcome the defense.

Hurts to say this, but the Croatians deserved this one. Germany should still go through by beating Austria fairly easily, but chances are they'll be facing Portugal in the quarters. And after seeing this, I'm gonna have to say that may well be the end of that. :(

Portugal will slay Germany on that form...awful...

Question to our German members...who is there to replace Lehmann long term?

Question to our German members...who is there to replace Lehmann long term?
Enke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Enke), Adler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rene_Adler) and Hildebrand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timo_Hildebrand).

Enke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Enke), Adler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rene_Adler) and Hildebrand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timo_Hildebrand).

Thanks! Enke I remember...and Hildebrand...

But this Adler fellow sounds quite tasty...

Austria is playing a good game but right now, Poland has the lead.

Its going crazy here LOLOL

Fireworks ....omfg!!!

Holland 4 France 1....stunning game...

Its going crazy here LOLOL

Fireworks ....omfg!!!

Holland 4 France 1....stunning game...

They were incredibly impressive. That third goal after Henry scored was just crazy. And a seven to one goal differential against Italy and France. Must be an exciting time to be there. :P

Howard Webb should be hanged in front of Polish fans, and punched a couple times in the face.

I am happy for the Netherlands. France and Italy aren't playing as expected, I think its going to be Romania, and Netherlands out of the group. How are they determining if there would be a tie in the groups so if it ends up 6 Croatia, 4 Germany, 4 Poland, and 4 Austria?

I am happy for the Netherlands. France and Italy aren't playing as expected, I think its going to be Romania, and Netherlands out of the group. How are they determining if there would be a tie in the groups so if it ends up 6 Croatia, 4 Germany, 4 Poland, and 4 Austria?

That would go down to Goal Difference. Two of the best games of Football played today. Romania are playing a lot better than expected while France and Italy, well ouch. I honestly think Romania deserve to go through to the Quarters.

Its going crazy here LOLOL

Fireworks ....omfg!!!

Holland 4 France 1....stunning game...

I was supporting Holland for that game but I felt for the French players to have pulled it back to 2-1 and then to ship a goal so quickly.

Dutch fans are awesome...

And seeing as N.Ireland have had nothing to do with the finals (again!!) can I just take the oppotunity to say:
1-0!! 1-0!! 1-0!!
3-2!! 3-2!! 3-2!!

I was supporting Holland for that game but I felt for the French players to have pulled it back to 2-1 and then to ship a goal so quickly.
Yeah, that must have hurt.

Yeah, that must have hurt.

I'm a Manchester United fan, and even though we won in the penalty shootout in the CL final I felt so bad for John Terry when he missed on the very last penalty that would have seen the trophy going to chealsea for the 1st time ever.

Not that that stopped me from jumping around the room like a madman and terrifying my dog...

Spain-Sweden game seems to be warming up nicely. I didn't see Torres's goal but Zatlan seems to have got into scoring form, having not scored since 2005 for sweeden. I really hope that Sweden wins this one, especially if Larson scores.

Another reason to say "Go Norway!": honesty.

Norwegian ref of Italy-Romania match, after much speculations by sports journalists about his decision to invalidate a goal scored by Toni when the match was still 0-0, and after some UEFA officer's attempt at saying that it was Del Piero in offside, simply says: "I was wrong. It was no offside."

Most referees would simply have sticked to their own original version and taken any chance not to admit an error.

Spain - Sweden 2-1 as I write... to bad for Ibracadabra.

So Spain win with a long ball...Swedes did a pretty good job of containing the Spaniards...shame.

Still it was a well taken winner.

Been some good goals so far in the tournament...

Howard Webb should be hanged in front of Polish fans, and punched a couple times in the face.

Conjectural penalty. Ignorant though you unwashed, eastern bloc masses may be, I daresay had an Austrain hauled a Polack down in injury time in the same fashion, you'd all have been hurling turnips at teh referee had he not given a penalty.

I'm a Manchester United fan, and even though we won in the penalty shootout in the CL final I felt so bad for John Terry when he missed on the very last penalty that would have seen the trophy going to chealsea for the 1st time ever.

Not that that stopped me from jumping around the room like a madman and terrifying my dog...

I didn't. At all.

I didn't. At all.

I've been on the end of a couple of very close races (switching the subject from football to rowing for a minute), I know what it's like to just be pipped tothe winning post and its incredibly painful. I wouldn't wish it on anyone and I can't help but emphaise with people who experience it.

I've been on the end of a couple of very close races (switching the subject from football to rowing for a minute), I know what it's like to just be pipped tothe winning post and its incredibly painful. I wouldn't wish it on anyone and I can't help but emphaise with people who experience it.

Agreed. I have upwards of 10 silver medals from my teenage athletics "career", many of which saw my being pipped on the line. However, John Terry is a special case, as would be Steven Gerrard or Jamie Carragher.;)

Agreed. I have upwards of 10 silver medals from my teenage athletics "career", many of which saw my being pipped on the line. However, John Terry is a special case, as would be Steven Gerrard or Jamie Carragher.;)

I used to really like Jamie Carragher. He's become a bit a prat though. Wrestling with people in the box and whatnot. He's now become ridicously overrated as the "underrated" defender.

His sprinting about the place diving into challenges isnt a sign of his heart and comittment, its a sign of his poor sense of positioning and lack of pace.

Taking a strop about not making it onto the england team over better players was a the straw that broke the camel's back.

I used to really like Jamie Carragher. He's become a bit a prat though. Wrestling with people in the box and whatnot. He's now become ridicously overrated as the "underrated" defender.

His sprinting about the place diving into challenges isnt a sign of his heart and comittment, its a sign of his poor sense of positioning and lack of pace.

Taking a strop about not making it onto the england team over better players was a the straw that broke the camel's back.

Bloody true. It's much the same with Gerrard; whenever yet more encomium pours in concerning the ground he covers and his "passion", my only thought is that it's energy expended because he lacks the intelligence and tactical awareness of Paul Scholes.

So.. what do people think about Netherlands-Romania.. will the Netherlands let Romania win, which would get rid of both France and Italy ?

What do people think of the swiss game?

HOLY SHIT!!!!

Turkey is beating the Czech Republic 3-2

Ha, let's hope the Turkish field players have practiced keeper duties. :p

Crazy game in the last half hour.

Didn't even need him anymore. Good thing, too - as our commentator pointed out: imagine the Czechs even the score and they'll have to do penalty kicks without the Turkish keeper. :p

Why would it be penalty kicks?

Why would it be penalty kicks?
Because both teams came into the game with the exact same number of points and either goal difference or goals (I didn't really pay attention). An even score would have sent the game into penalty kicks. Would it still have been even after that, the UEFA has a whole list of things that would have decided who gets to go on in the tournament, including things like "fairplay" and, eventually, luck of the draw.

Penalty kicks in this round would have been a first in championship history.

God knows what the Turkish keeper was thinking, pushing someone to the ground in full view of the referee, with only two minutes to go before they won. Idiot.

I just got home for the last few minutes of that game... Holy crap, that was intense.

The comeback by Turkey was one of the best comebacks I've seen. A fantastic match.

Poor Swiss, too little too late ... but then the Portugese were playing a "seconds" team

So.. what do people think about Netherlands-Romania.. will the Netherlands let Romania win, which would get rid of both France and Italy ?

I sincerely hope not. I am firmly against strategic losing as a means to escape facing decent teams again in the future; if you want to be the best, you bring your best game forward every single match, and you face the best teams out there. You want to *earn* that cup, don't you? You let Romania win, eliminate France and Italy, breath a little easier... and honestly, don't deserve to win, in my opinion. And I say this as a fan of Romania.

Bloody true. It's much the same with Gerrard; whenever yet more encomium pours in concerning the ground he covers and his "passion", my only thought is that it's energy expended because he lacks the intelligence and tactical awareness of Paul Scholes.
I think Gerard is still a slightly more ..sophisticated..player than Caragher, while he doesnt have anything close to the intelligence and awareness of Scholes (but then again there aren't too many people in the PL that do), his drive is better suited for his role and does give a bit of an extra attacking threat. While he is best suited for the centre midfield role at Liverpool, where the team is set up around him, he's probably better suited for the left wing role with England, if only because he seems to have shown signs with developing a good link with Rooney and that is something that England dearly needs.

God knows what the Turkish keeper was thinking, pushing someone to the ground in full view of the referee, with only two minutes to go before they won. Idiot.

That was the craziest finish to a match I have ever seen I think. Tuncay looked terrified in the goalkeeper's shirt. I think he must have been praying the whole time. Everytime the camera cut back to him, his arms were outstreched and he was looking up to the sky.

Imagine if it had gone to penalties....

I sincerely hope not. I am firmly against strategic losing as a means to escape facing decent teams again in the future; if you want to be the best, you bring your best game forward every single match, and you face the best teams out there. You want to *earn* that cup, don't you? You let Romania win, eliminate France and Italy, breath a little easier... and honestly, don't deserve to win, in my opinion. And I say this as a fan of Romania.

Why would one want to "*earn* that cup" when, simply by playing weakened team, one gives oneself a better chance later in the competition? In any case, having already won the group, there is no logic behind van Basten risking injury to his starting players in a largely irrelevant match.

Why would one want to "*earn* that cup" when, simply by playing weakened team, one gives oneself a better chance later in the competition? In any case, having already won the group, there is no logic behind van Basten risking injury to his starting players in a largely irrelevant match.

I agree. Last thing you want is your best players picking up yellow cards or injury in a game you can afford to lose. It's good to give the "seconds" a bit game time on the field in case they need them to play later.

Why would one want to "*earn* that cup" when, simply by playing weakened team, one gives oneself a better chance later in the competition? In any case, having already won the group, there is no logic behind van Basten risking injury to his starting players in a largely irrelevant match.

To sum it up, "biscotto" against Italy (and against France this time), like 4 years ago (Swe-Den 2-2 iirc...). I do hope that Van Basten has better standards and will have his side play for the victory.

Man, what a tense game between Austria and Germany.

I don't think I've ever seen the coaches being sent to sit up on the bleachers for bickering before. o_O

I don't think I've ever seen the coaches being sent to sit up on the bleachers for bickering before. o_O

huh so it just don't happen in the movies

Man, what a tense game between Austria and Germany.

I don't think I've ever seen the coaches being sent to sit up on the bleachers for bickering before. o_O

There weren't even fisticuffs. :p Germany is looking too hesitant offensively, and too content to let Austria work when they have the ball. Bad signs IMHO. :(

There weren't even fisticuffs. :p Germany is looking too hesitant offensively, and too content to let Austria work when they have the ball. Bad signs IMHO. :(

It's something that keeps annoying me about the German team... they never do more than absolutely necessary, and end up in situations like in the worldcup semi-final against Italy 2 years ago...