NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7429638.stm

Got to love our Great British spirit. Londoners were certainly enjoying it this evening. Good to see people sticking an early two fingers up at Boris and the introduction of this ridiculous and unenforcable law.

Haha. There was a rumour that a bomb had gone off at King's Cross, that's why everybody was crowding the streets. But what I distinctively heard from outside the window were cheers and chatter, not "ZOMG! A BOMB!"

My freakiest trip on the Tube was alcohol-related. Therefore I'm really happy for it to be banned.

So do you not have laws against public intoxication there, or is this law in addition to public intoxication laws?

So do you not have laws against public intoxication there, or is this law in addition to public intoxication laws?
You can be arrested for being 'drunk and disorderly', but government, councils and possibly other public bodies can make drinking in certain areas an offence.

So do you not have laws against public intoxication there, or is this law in addition to public intoxication laws?

Additionally. There are laws against being drunk, this is against drinking.

Boris Johnson is an idiot, the fact that london elcted him as mayour tells me that many people in this country clearly know nothing about politics. Honestly people now vote for the "funniest" candidate rather than the one with the best policies.

Boris Johnson is an idiot, the fact that london elcted him as mayour tells me that many people in this country clearly know nothing about politics. Honestly people now vote for the "funniest" candidate rather than the one with the best policies.

Colbert for President '08.

Hero's every last one of them!

So do you not have laws against public intoxication there, or is this law in addition to public intoxication laws?

do your police arrest every drunk on the street?

Heh. Pretty cool. Still, call me a square, but:

Peter Moore, 35, a sailor from Brighton, described his night as: "Drunken, I just downed a can of beer in 10 seconds. It's sweaty on there but I'm going round and round until I vomit."

...is that actually enjoyable? I've tipped a few glasses in my time, but never to the point of vomiting. That always seemed like something to avoid... no?

do your police arrest every drunk on the street?

Some places, yeah. Drunk and disorderly arrests are usually well represented in the police blotter. Although in L.A., pedestrianism is considered gauche. :p

As long as we are on trains in UK, I might as well get this cleared.

How much time it would take for me to travel from Kent to Edinburgh or Dundee? I actually have to go to Dundee. I am completely lost on what trains to board, where to buy tickets etc. Apparently there are many service providers and I am clueless on who services what sectors and I am sorry I don't have time to research myself. Help !

As long as we are on trains in UK, I might as well get this cleared.

How much time it would take for me to travel from Kent to Edinburgh or Dundee? I actually have to go to Dundee. I am completely lost on what trains to board, where to buy tickets etc. Apparently there are many service providers and I am clueless on who services what sectors and I am sorry I don't have time to research myself. Help !

www.thetrainline.com

Put in the station you're leaving from, the station you're going to, and the date(s) you want to travel. It figures out specific times, changes needed, ticket to buy, etc.

Boris Johnson is an idiot, the fact that london elcted him as mayour tells me that many people in this country clearly know nothing about politics. Honestly people now vote for the "funniest" candidate rather than the one with the best policies.

I don't think people voted for Boris because they liked him so much. I think it's more like either a) a time of change from Ken and b) because nationally, New Labour was sunk.

I think it's a great idea to ban the booze. Being stuck in a carriage with a drunken tramp is amusing at best, but downright frightening at worst.

And anyone who thinks that this is appalling because they can't go the ten minutes they spend on the tube without booze should probably seek professional help.

This is disgusting elitism. I can drink, even purchase alcohol on planes and trains, but once I arrive in the city I have to ditch my drink?

This is disgusting elitism. I can drink, even purchase alcohol on planes and trains, but once I arrive in the city I have to ditch my drink?

*Raises eyebrow*

You can keep your drink, just put it away while you're on public transport. That's hardly elitism...

*Raises eyebrow*

You can keep your drink, just put it away while you're on public transport. That's hardly elitism...It is elitism. It means people who can't afford to travel between cities but can enter the tube without paying at Finsbury Park can't enjoy a nice drink in comfort as they travel.

It is elitism. It means people who can't afford to travel between cities but can enter the tube without paying at Finsbury Park can't enjoy a nice drink in comfort as they travel.

You can enjoy a nice drink of refreshing orange juice. :)

You can enjoy a nice drink of refreshing orange juice. :)And if I keep a hip flask on my person then no one need ever know the difference.

To be fair I don't even ride the tube that much. I find it too expensive and use the bus if I can.

And if I keep a hip flask on my person then no one need ever know the difference.

Well, clearly, staff on the trains will be given high-tech chemical analysers that can determine the precise nature of your drink. And obviously extra staff, trained to deal with potential conflict situations, will be employed purely for the purpose of ensuring that people are not drinking. Because Boris surely couldn't have attempted a headline-grabbing policy that is ludicrous and simply won't work :p

You can be arrested for being 'drunk and disorderly', but government, councils and possibly other public bodies can make drinking in certain areas an offence.That makes sense.

Additionally. There are laws against being drunk, this is against drinking.Ah, I see.

I'm not sure how I feel about this, but to arrest someone merely for drinking seems to be a bit excessive.

Its a case of the minority ruining things for the majority. Because a few people cannot handle their alcohol without dishing out a helping of anti-social behaviour, then everyone has to have the option of being able to drink alcohol on public transport taken away from them.

Its not as ridiculous as the smoking ban however. The government have really cracked down on smokers, and it seems that a second wave of anti-smoking regulations are about to hit. I know it is off topic, but I think the smoking laws have had a great deal to do with the lack of faith in 'New Labour'..... as well as all that war stuff.

As for people voting Boris as mayor... I think we have been affected by America and decided to follow suit by voting for a performing monkey. At least with this one, we all know he is an idiot before he starts so he cannot disappoint us.

As long as we are on trains in UK, I might as well get this cleared.

How much time it would take for me to travel from Kent to Edinburgh or Dundee?


A very long time, longer still if the route you are on is suffering delays, diversions that may include being shoved on a coach or two because one section of the railway is closed for upgrading, and the rail companies don't bother to inform each other, let alone you, when you are buying the ticket until it's too late.

I actually have to go to Dundee.

From Kent? Prepare to have the patient of a saint then. It may be quicker just to get a plane from the US to a Scottish airport and then get a Taxi. More expensive certainly, but less complicated.


I am completely lost on what trains to board, where to buy tickets etc. Apparently there are many service providers and I am clueless on who services what sectors and I am sorry I don't have time to research myself. Help !


Well, no offence, but you should truly research the railways and companies in the UK if you're travelling on them. They are sadly not a hop-on, hop-off business anymore, and the state of them is partly the reason why passengers have been driven to drink on them.


But who knows? You may travel on a good day.


Best of luck to you, you'll need it.

Now I enjoy a tipple. In fact, I enjoy nothing more than watching everything spin as I grope my way home on a wintry English night. I drink to moderation and in excess of moderation. But I think the idea of banning drink on the tube is COMPLETELY fair, and I have only really developed that opinion since seeing the video posted by the originator of this thread as some sort of inscrutable evidence against the ban. The fact that people are willing to disrupt public transport, make the lives of countless TFL workers much harder and strew rubbish over what is already a rather filthy part of the world-- and to PRESERVE their right to a "good piss-up", is a damning motivation to prevent them from being able to do so. You can still be DRUNK on the tube, and you can still use the tube on your way to HAVE a drink. What is so vitally important about being able to drink ON the tube? Nothing in particular. People that DO drink on the tube can be troublesome or just generally twats. If you can't live without drinking in a specific place, maybe you should address the reasons behind that instead of flying off the handle, or declaring a disruptive boozefest. I am not saying "Long Live Boris", and I am not an elitist throwing stones at you from my "Ivory Tower". I support the policy, and I do not believe prohibiting the consumption of alcohol on public transport "discriminates" against any particular section of society. Except compulsive alcoholics.

My freakiest trip on the Tube was alcohol-related. Therefore I'm really happy for it to be banned.

Seconded. same story here. I think the same scheme should be applied nationwide. Drinking on mainline trains is every bit as problematic as drinking on TfL. The amount of drinks on transport makes me really fearful about travelling at night, paticularly friday and saturday nights. Plus, it encourages chav "culture".

I think this is just sensationalism since Boris passed this law (even though it was almost certain that Ken was eventually going to pass a law like this as well). I'd hardly call it ridiculous, drunk people on public transport is a massive, massive problem and to think that you actually have the same rights on public property as you do in the privacy of your own home is absurd.

This is disgusting elitism. I can drink, even purchase alcohol on planes and trains, but once I arrive in the city I have to ditch my drink?

Personally I don't think alcohol should be on public transit of any kind, full stop. That includes rail, road, river, sea and air. Confined spaces with large numbers of people and alcohol do not make for a pleasant cocktail. Not that the "elitist" label bothers me, but this isn't elitist, it's a sensible attempt to reduce the number of beer swilling yobs that slobber all over you, and try to grope you or chat you up on the DLR.

separately, I don't think dear Boris introduced this law for above reasons, he did it to grab headlines. It just happens to be a good law, but wasn't enacted for that reason.

I'd hardly call it ridiculous, drunk people on public transport is a massive, massive problem

How many of them actually get drunk on public transport?

How many of them actually get drunk on public transport?

From my experience, too much.

Seriously from an emotive angle this law really sucks, whenever I go to an away game for instance in London, a large portion of the drinks consumed will be on public transport because it makes life so much easier, so I can understand why people will find this law a pain in the ass. From a pragmatic point of view, it will probably make public transport in London slightly more pleasant and may reduce crime, I've had so many bad experiences with chavs drinking at the back of the bus at night believe me.

As long as we are on trains in UK, I might as well get this cleared.

How much time it would take for me to travel from Kent to Edinburgh or Dundee? I actually have to go to Dundee. I am completely lost on what trains to board, where to buy tickets etc. Apparently there are many service providers and I am clueless on who services what sectors and I am sorry I don't have time to research myself. Help !

it would be cheaper and easier to fly. Intercity trains in the UK are hopeless. Air France Cityjet have a flights from City Airport (London) to Dundee. From kent just get a commuter train or National Express into London, DLR to City Airport, then fly. Dundee airport is right on the waterside, very near town.

To do the entire journey by train is slow, expensive and unreliable. By bus it's just slow and expensive.

Personally I don't think alcohol should be on public transit of any kind, full stop. That includes rail, road, river, sea and air. Confined spaces with large numbers of people and alcohol do not make for a pleasant cocktail. Not that the "elitist" label bothers me, but this isn't elitist, it's a sensible attempt to reduce the number of beer swilling yobs that slobber all over you, and try to grope you or chat you up on the DLR.No, that isn't elitist, but the present situation does, if you wish to drink whilst in transit, favour those with more money.

separately, I don't think dear Boris introduced this law for above reasons, he did it to grab headlines. It just happens to be a good law, but wasn't enacted for that reason.Well yes, I suppose this 'protest' was more about people being disgruntled with Boris' election than being annoyed at not being able to drink on the tube. Though the majority were probably just there for a piss up that seemed like it might be fun.

As long as we are on trains in UK, I might as well get this cleared.

How much time it would take for me to travel from Kent to Edinburgh or Dundee? I actually have to go to Dundee. I am completely lost on what trains to board, where to buy tickets etc. Apparently there are many service providers and I am clueless on who services what sectors and I am sorry I don't have time to research myself. Help !

A very long time

iIntercity trains in the UK are hopeless.

Jeez, you two are ridiculously cynical. The trains aren't that bad.

You can travel to Scotland from Kent in about 5-6 hours. You should start with this website (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/), which will give you train times, routes and fares, and also let you book some tickets (at least I think it does now).

Don't worry about different operating companies - it's a one ticket covers all system.

Boris Johnson is an idiot, the fact that london elcted him as mayour tells me that many people in this country clearly know nothing about politics. Honestly people now vote for the "funniest" candidate rather than the one with the best policies.

I suspect they elected him because they KNEW he was an idiot. Maybe that was their way of saying 'Pi$$ off' to ALL stupid, grasping, corrupt, lying, self important politicians - that covers most of them. :upyours:

Well played to all involved. I wasn't able to go, regrettably, despite being home from university.

I shouldn't endorse this, what with my being a Boris-ite, however, such civil disobedience does strike a tone.

Its a case of the minority ruining things for the majority. Because a few people cannot handle their alcohol without dishing out a helping of anti-social behaviour, then everyone has to have the option of being able to drink alcohol on public transport taken away from them.
That's what I would have thought prior to this event, but actually, I'm kinda swinging back the other way now. The original idea behind the meet was to show that "people can have a good time while drinking without being socially disruptive", and if they'd shown that then they'd have my full support, but actually, once the drinks started flowing, members of the crowd turned on its ideals and started being socially disruptive. If people meeting to drink with peaceful civil disobedience in mind can't help causing damage, then maybe their stance isn't exactly justified?

Anyone who is so disagreeable and in such need of a drink, that they can't spend the time it takes to travel on the tube, are exactly the people who shouldn't be drinking.

Get over it. It's not prohibition. It's just on the tube.

And now there's more 'anti-drink' policies proposed:

Charities and opposition MPs have criticised ministers' proposals to tackle underage drinking in England.

Parents who allow children to drink in public could be prosecuted, and it could become illegal for under-18s to be regularly found with alcohol.

But the Tories and Lib Dems said legislation would not solve the problem, while charity Addaction said the price of drink should rise instead.

Justice Secretary Jack Straw insisted the law could change behaviour.

(Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7430132.stm).)

England (and Wales?) only, so the teenagers of Scotland still get to drink White Lightning till sun-up.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1450/112b8cbe3ca211d9b7bfb32ie6.jpg

Jeez, you two are ridiculously cynical. The trains aren't that bad.

You can travel to Scotland from Kent in about 5-6 hours. You should start with this website (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/), which will give you train times, routes and fares, and also let you book some tickets (at least I think it does now).

Don't worry about different operating companies - it's a one ticket covers all system.

I have to travel intercity two or three times a month so the cynicism sets in pretty quickly. as for the one ticket does it all system, this does only apply to the more expensive tickets. if you need to travel cheaply the restrictions build up pretty quickly, so I can see how people can give up in frustration. It can be very confusing with AP fares. I would fly, but there is no flights on the route I use.

It seems kind of ironic that a demonstration against a law to reduce alcohol-related problems on public transport turns into a great example of alcohol-related problems on public transport.

Sounds like a nice party, but the amount of arrests and disorder just seems to justify why the law has been made.

Jeez, you two are ridiculously cynical. The trains aren't that bad.

You can travel to Scotland from Kent in about 5-6 hours. You should start with this website (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/), which will give you train times, routes and fares, and also let you book some tickets (at least I think it does now).

Don't worry about different operating companies - it's a one ticket covers all system.

Quite. Just don't travel on a Sunday (and be prepared to sell a kidney) and everything will probably be all right.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1450/112b8cbe3ca211d9b7bfb32ie6.jpg

Aah, White Lightning, the drink that bespeaks class. Best enjoyed in the salubrious environs of the local municipal open area.

Or bus shelter.

Thanks for all the responses.

I am looking at http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk and I am seeing duration varying around 10 hrs with 2 or 3 changes and fare about 125 GBP.

Taking a flight is not that easier either...I am looking at 2 hrs to LHR another 3 hrs to get through the plane and land at either Glasgow or Edinburgh and take a car from there and realistically that's about 8 hrs at least in total. Plus the train ride and flight charges and car charges would run into more than 300 GBP, I guess.

Driving there is tempting...its only 500 miles..the car gives 35 mpg..I have to convert the thing into litres for the cost..

just landed and still jet lagged...I will do the math tomorrow and see....unless somebody has a bright idea :p

I have to travel intercity two or three times a month so the cynicism sets in pretty quickly. as for the one ticket does it all system, this does only apply to the more expensive tickets. if you need to travel cheaply the restrictions build up pretty quickly, so I can see how people can give up in frustration. It can be very confusing with AP fares. I would fly, but there is no flights on the route I use.
I travel from Reading to Bristol and back fairly regularly as I'm at uni there, and I've never had any trouble from the railways. Admittedly, I'm on what is essentially the main line in the country, but even so, I've found the trains to be nothing but convenient, prompt and fast. The price can be a bit steep if you buy it the same day, but it's fairly cheap if you do it in advance. The only minor troubles I've had is the person who's served me mucking up my seating preferences.

And Boris Johnson's a tit. I don't think he's as much an idiot as people think he is. I don't like him (primarily because he's Tory), but he could do OK. Plus, I don't care about London that much and am fairly happy when the whinging Londoners have a valid reason to complain, rather than the usual bollocks.

Aah, White Lightning, the drink that bespeaks class. Best enjoyed in the salubrious environs of the local municipal open area.

Or bus shelter.
Any drink made from fermented onions must be good!

Driving there is tempting...its only 500 miles..the car gives 35 mpg..I have to convert the thing into litres for the cost..

just landed and still jet lagged...I will do the math tomorrow and see....unless somebody has a bright idea :p
Going by car isn't a terrible idea at all; it gives you the freedom to have a little explore on the way up.

Going by car isn't a terrible idea at all; it gives you the freedom to have a little explore on the way up.

If you can afford the petrol, that is.

Now my problem with this ban is twofold. Firstly, I don't like most "bans" unless it can be proved that by banning me from doing something someone else will be benefitting. Hence my agreement with the smoking ban. Stopping me from drinking on the tube has no benefit to anyone else as I am not a drunken psychotic.

Secondly, the ban is effectively unenforcable. I work on the overground trains where we have a blanket ban on smoking on all railway property. Now at 11pm on a saturday night when a bunch of rowdy drunks are smoking on the platform there is no way i am going out there to tell them to pack it in. The same will happen on the tube - this ban will create more confrontational situations for staff who get more than enough confrontation as it is. The only people who can effectively enforce this ban is the police - and how often do you ever see them on the transport network?

The only people who can effectively enforce this ban is the police - and how often do you ever see them on the transport network?

are you suggesting we sabotage police vehicles forcing them to take high speed chases onto buses?

this would amuse me greatly

Thanks for all the responses.

I am looking at http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk and I am seeing duration varying around 10 hrs with 2 or 3 changes and fare about 125 GBP.

Taking a flight is not that easier either...I am looking at 2 hrs to LHR another 3 hrs to get through the plane and land at either Glasgow or Edinburgh and take a car from there and realistically that's about 8 hrs at least in total. Plus the train ride and flight charges and car charges would run into more than 300 GBP, I guess.

Driving there is tempting...its only 500 miles..the car gives 35 mpg..I have to convert the thing into litres for the cost..

just landed and still jet lagged...I will do the math tomorrow and see....unless somebody has a bright idea :pDon't forget to factor in UK petrol prices though. Current rates are one bodily organ per litre.

Don't forget to factor in UK petrol prices though. Current rates are one bodily organ per litre.

It's interesting that cost doesn't translate into expensive flying miles and cheap rail travel though...

England (and Wales?) only, so the teenagers of Scotland still get to drink White Lightning till sun-up.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/1450/112b8cbe3ca211d9b7bfb32ie6.jpg
I thought the Neds were into bucky? :p

I thought the Neds were into bucky? :p
Who said anything about neds?

Buckfast (the drink of the gods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckfast_Tonic_Wine), to those not in the know) is a fine accompaniment to any night's revelries.

Why, even certain pubs in Glasgow now have Bucky on draught.

Who said anything about neds?
They're the only people north of the border who'd drink White Lightning :p
Buckfast (the drink of the gods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckfast_Tonic_Wine), to those not in the know) is a fine accompaniment to any night's revelries.

Why, even certain pubs in Glasgow now have Bucky on draught.
Aye, it's excellent stuff, but I was under the impression that it was mainly drunk by Neds.

They're the only people north of the border who'd drink White Lightning :p
I'm more of a Strongbow or Frosty Jack's ("You ain't tasted Jack, till you've had Frosty's!") man myself.

Aye, it's excellent stuff, but I was under the impression that it was mainly drunk by Neds.
It's got a big following among students, especially here in the West End. Often, a bottle of Bucky will start the night off.

I'm more of a Strongbow or Frosty Jack's ("You ain't tasted Jack, till you've had Frosty's!") man myself.
And I just drink spirits, red wine or white beer :p
It's got a big following among students, especially here in the West End. Often, a bottle of Bucky will start the night off.
Noice.

And I just drink spirits, red wine or white beer :p
To be honest, I'm an ale or whisky man at heart (read: ponce). But at the end of the night, when the beer has been finished, a 2 litre bottle of cheap-as-shit cider looks strangely alluring.

Noice.
Is it big down York way?

To be honest, I'm an ale or whisky man at heart (read: ponce). But at the end of the night, when the beer has been finished, a 2 litre bottle of cheap-as-shit cider looks strangely alluring.
S'true.
Is it big down York way?
Not really, and unbelievably difficult to get :p

Not really, and unbelievably difficult to get :p
Yeah, I heard that.

I know a guy who moved to Manchester, and went in to his local offie to ask if the guy could get some Bucky in specially. My friend was having a party, so the shop owner agreed to order in a crate, and leave it at that. However, there were a couple of bottles in the crate that my friend didn't buy, and they flew off the shelves. Last I heard, the shop stocks it regularly.

And while I'm on a roll... another friend went on an extended trip to Oz. Got his Mum to send, by airmail, a bottle of Bucky and a glass bottle of Irn Bru.

Ahh, the comforts of home. :p

It's got a big following among students, especially here in the West End. Often, a bottle of Bucky will start the night off.

A bottle and a rendition (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ04QVBDhKQ&feature=related) if you know what's good for you (doubtful, considering the topic)

Now my problem with this ban is twofold. Firstly, I don't like most "bans" unless it can be proved that by banning me from doing something someone else will be benefitting. Hence my agreement with the smoking ban. Stopping me from drinking on the tube has no benefit to anyone else as I am not a drunken psychotic.
It's a ban, not a specific attack directed at you just to ruin your day(s)(and/or nights).
And that goes for the rest of you whiners as well.

A bit off topic but does anybody find it interesting that whilst there has been some attention paid to the Standard's campaign against Ken, the main reason that Boris won the election has been largely ignored.

Murdoch came out for Boris and people blindly followed. Say yay for undue influence.

The Brits sure do admire George Orwell.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7429638.stm

Got to love our Great British spirit. Londoners were certainly enjoying it this evening. Good to see people sticking an early two fingers up at Boris and the introduction of this ridiculous and unenforcable law.What's so great about people beating hardworking people up and destroying trains?
Those bastards should be shot.

It's interesting that cost doesn't translate into expensive flying miles and cheap rail travel though...That's because both industries are heavily subsidised. Air doesn't have to pay fuel duty on the fuel it uses and rail justs receives cold hard cash from the government to run the trains late.

That's because both industries are heavily subsidised. Air doesn't have to pay fuel duty on the fuel it uses and rail justs receives cold hard cash from the government to run the trains late.

Rail also benefits from coal generated electricity and even the diesel lines would use cheaper/less specific fuel (more efficient engine and less refining needed).

The Brits sure do admire George Orwell.
... evidently we don't, or there wouldn't have been thousands of people getting pissed on the underground to prove a point.

What's so great about people beating hardworking people up and destroying trains?
Not that annoying minority, the thousands of people merely getting sloshed.

Those bastards should be shot.
Or deported to Australia? Perhaps sent to the Continent to fight Napoleon?

I was on the tube on Saturday night. It was full of idiots who decided that THEY had the right to make everyone elses journies miserable.
What the f**k is wrong with the vast majority of tube users having journies not ruined by a bunch of tossers drinking and swearing.
I loved their justification that they were 'peacefully exerting their rights' just before they started fighting with the cops. I also wish they were dragged out of their beds the next day with steaming hangovers to clean up the mess

I was on the tube on Saturday night. It was full of idiots who decided that THEY had the right to make everyone elses journies miserable.
What the f**k is wrong with the vast majority of tube users having journies not ruined by a bunch of tossers drinking and swearing.
I loved their justification that they were 'peacefully exerting their rights' just before they started fighting with the cops. I also wish they were dragged out of their beds the next day with steaming hangovers to clean up the mess

Yeah I agree.

Or deported to Australia? Perhaps sent to the Continent to fight Napoleon?

To Scotland is good enough. :p

... evidently we don't, or there wouldn't have been thousands of people getting pissed on the underground to prove a point.

They weren't proving a point, they just found an excuse to have an unusual party.

They weren't proving a point, they just found an excuse to have an unusual party.
I think the two went hand-in-hand nicely.

To Scotland is good enough. :p
Only if you can't handle heart disease.

Or rain.

They weren't proving a point, they just found an excuse to have an unusual party.
A little from column A, a little from column B.