NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7429238.stm
Troops 'must back Mugabe or quit'

Zimbabwe's army chief has told soldiers they must leave the military if they do not vote for incumbent President Robert Mugabe in next month's run-off poll.

Chief-of-staff Maj Gen Martin Chedondo said soldiers had signed up to protect Mr Mugabe's principles of defending the revolution, state media reported.

"If you have other thoughts, then you should remove that uniform," he said.

Gen Chedondo was speaking at a target-shooting competition outside Harare, the Herald newspaper reported.

Zimbabwe's generals have in the past vowed never to support the main opposition candidate, Morgan Tsvangirai, if he is elected in the 27 June run-off election.

'Imperialist influence'

"Soldiers are not apolitical; only mercenaries are apolitical," said the general. "We should therefore stand behind our commander-in-chief."

He said the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) was being supported by Britain and its Western allies in a bid to regain "imperialist" influence in Zimbabwe.

Earlier, Justice Minister Patrick Chinamasa accused the intelligence services of the UK and the US of acting as a sinister third force to undermine the ruling party's revolution.

He said an opposition victory in the run-off vote would reverse the gains of the revolution and destabilise the country.

Conflict veterans

Gen Chedondo said troops were being deployed across the nation to help police control political violence before the presidential election second round.

The army denies reports by human rights groups that soldiers have been involved in instigating attacks on government opponents since the first round of voting on 29 March, which saw no overall winner emerge.

The MDC says more than 50 of its members have been killed and thousands more forced to flee their homes since the first round.

Most of Zimbabwe's generals are veterans of the conflict that led to independence in 1980.

This stuff just keeps getting worse and worse, and frankly, I think it's heading in the direction of civil war. It'd be nice if Mugabe would recognize that and step down, but since when did a dictator listen to that kind of reason?

I think things are going to get a lot worse before they get any better.

they have no oil best to let them fight it out.

for feck sake why do we always have to be the bad guys? :mad:

for feck sake why do we always have to be the bad guys? :mad:Because it would be unfair to let the Americans take all the flak for the world's ills.

I don't know about civil war though. For civil there tends to need to be a fairly equal split in terms of support amongst those who hold arms. And I haven't heard much support amongst the military for the MDC, but I could be wrong.

for feck sake why do we always have to be the bad guys? :mad:

'Cause we don't exactly have a record of being much BUT the bad guys. This isn't to say that we never do any good, but we sure do have a bad habit of having rulers we don't like killed or deposed. Mossadegh, Arbenz, Korean and Vietnamese juntas, the Contras etc. There's plenty of evidence for any tin-pot despot to believe that OMG!!!11!!TEH US HATEZ MOI!

for feck sake why do we always have to be the bad guys? :mad:
Because we owned it until 1965, and then the Rhodesian government laid claim to our support until it died a death in May 1980, despite the Queen basically telling them to fuck off.

So there we go.

*edits* As to a civil war - maybe. The army did have a coup attempt a couple of years back which failed, after all.

Mossadegh, Arbenz, Korean and Vietnamese juntas, the Contras etc. There's plenty of evidence for any tin-pot despot to believe that OMG!!!11!!TEH US HATEZ MOI!
...

Eh wut?

That was mainly the Yanks, esp regarding the Contras. As to Vietnam - we stayed the hell away from that, too.

for feck sake why do we always have to be the bad guys? :mad:

Something to do with haphazardly dividing the continent up with out regard for tribal, ethnic lines, or religious lines.
Same deal in the mid east.

But hey at least you didn't do what the Germans and Belgians did. Randomly create another ethnic group and put them in charge as overseers so of course when the Germans and Belgians left they hate each other.

Could just make this the title:

Is Civil War on the Horizon for (Insert African Nation here)?

Because we owned it until 1965, and then the Rhodesian government laid claim to our support until it died a death in May 1980, despite the Queen basically telling them to fuck off.

I think their just jealous of the pound

Something to do with haphazardly dividing the continent up with out regard for tribal, ethnic lines, or religious lines.
Same deal in the mid east.

Zimbabwe's a bit different in that respect

Is Civil War on the Horizon for (Insert African Nation here)?

no because Somalia would sue

Zimbabwe's a bit different in that respect



your right I forgot Zimbabwe's problem was that all the people who knew how to farm were white, and when the black population wanted their land back the farmers said screw this and left. But for some reason I think the people there before the British came knew how to farm.

no because Somalia would sue

Damn.

your right I forgot Zimbabwe's problem was that all the people who knew how to farm were white, and when the black population wanted their land back the farmers said screw this and left. But for some reason I think the people there before the British came knew how to farm.

If I remember correctly, when the black population wanted their land back Mugabe's army went and massacred the white farmers, their wives, and their children to get it

If I remember correctly, when the black population wanted their land back Mugabe's army went and massacred the white farmers, their wives, and their children to get it

Here's a funny little detail. Bob actually didn't even give a shit about the white farmers until he watched a CNN story showing how those white farmers were funding the opposition parties. That's when he went paranoid apeshit and started the confiscation program that turned Zimbabwe into the world's most beloved shithole.

Here's a funny little detail. Bob actually didn't even give a shit about the white farmers until he watched a CNN story showing how those white farmers were funding the opposition parties. That's when he went paranoid apeshit and started the confiscation program that turned Zimbabwe into the world's most beloved shithole.

Not totally true - Mugabe originally came to power on the promise of distribution of land, and initially had the support of the British, who promised funding but never actually followed through.

As shallow as it sounds, his growing resentment at being disrespected boiled over in the early 90's when he was snubbed on a visit to Britain. From there he went into overdrive on distribution and commenced allowing intimidation to force white farmers out of Zimbabwe.

Like so many changes in power, those who lead it feel entitled to that power and never step down when their position is no longer tenable. Some people are fantastic at initiating change but not following through.

Power corrupts.

Not totally true - Mugabe originally came to power on the promise of distribution of land, and initially had the support of the British, who promised funding but never actually followed through.
Unsurprisingly, seeing as he used a great deal of violence in the first set of actually fair elections which we told them to have.
As shallow as it sounds, his growing resentment at being disrespected boiled over in the early 90's when he was snubbed on a visit to Britain. From there he went into overdrive on distribution and commenced allowing intimidation to force white farmers out of Zimbabwe.
The problems really started in the mid-1990s when he got involved in the war in the Congo. Caused a great deal of inflation for what was essentially a waste of time. After that, he started attacking white farmers as the reason for the problems in his country, and since then it's been a terrible, terrible mess.
Like so many changes in power, those who lead it feel entitled to that power and never step down when their position is no longer tenable.
Quite, although his work in getting rid of the Smith government was pretty important, even if the actual consequences of the Bush War were terrible on the population and the economy.
Some people are fantastic at initiating change but not following through.
The problem with Mugabe is that he got old and senile, as well as surrounding himself with cronies and yes-men, the former of which simply happens at a certain age, and the latter happens after being in any kind of power for more than about eight years.

If I remember correctly, when the black population wanted their land back Mugabe's army went and massacred the white farmers, their wives, and their children to get it

How did the whites acquire the land to begin with?
for some reason I don't see the natives giving it as a gift.
And violence only erupted after the decade long failure of encouraged willing seller willing buyer tog et any of the white farmers to turn over the land.

How did the whites acquire the land to begin with?
for some reason I don't see the natives giving it as a gift.
And violence only erupted after the decade long failure of encouraged willing seller willing buyer tog et any of the white farmers to turn over the land.

The farmers inherited their land for the most part. And they quite reasonably didn't want to sell productive, profit-making farms.

So, Mugabe and company decided to steal them. From the native born owners.

The farmers inherited their land for the most part. And they quite reasonably didn't want to sell productive, profit-making farms.

So, Mugabe and company decided to steal them. From the native born owners.

Heaven forbid I be forced to sell something my great grandfather stole.

The forcing only came when the vast majority of farmers refused to sell, and used their ties with the UK to get the funding that was supposed to be provided for the purchase of the land cut off.
when 1% of the population owns 70% of all arable land there tend to be issues, especially when that 1 % is a ethnic group.

Not that Mugabe is an angel. He should have given that land to the farm workers who might have actually be able to grow something, instead of his friends form the city who had no clue.

Heaven forbid I be forced to sell something my great grandfather stole.

Yes, heaven forbid. Because you didn't do anything wrong, and came by that thing legally and legitimately.

No one that land was stolen from is now alive. No one living did the stealing. And Guilt and Debt are both settled by death.

The forcing only came when the vast majority of farmers refused to sell, and used their ties with the UK to get the funding that was supposed to be provided for the purchase of the land cut off.
when 1% of the population owns 70% of all arable land there tend to be issues, especially when that 1 % is a ethnic group.

Not that Mugabe is an angel. He should have given that land to the farm workers who might have actually be able to grow something, instead of his friends form the city who had no clue.

Or, he should have simply have set up an inheritance tax system that would have forced the sale of those farms over time.

A legitimate government protects the rights of ALL of it's citizens. Mugabe's treatment of his white citizens proves him nothng more than a tyrant.

Yes, heaven forbid. Because you didn't do anything wrong, and came by that thing legally and legitimately.

No one that land was stolen from is now alive. No one living did the stealing. And Guilt and Debt are both settled by death.


I steal a car, just because I don't get caught doesn't mean I get to will it to my Son. Also the son of the person who actually owned the car is still entitled to that car.


Or, he should have simply have set up an inheritance tax system that would have forced the sale of those farms over time.

A legitimate government protects the rights of ALL of it's citizens. Mugabe's treatment of his white citizens proves him nothng more than a tyrant.
The people of Zimbabwe wished for a more faster acting land reform then an inheritance tax system. And you leaving out that the UK treatment of its African citizens is what caused this mess in Zimbabwe in the first place.

The people of Zimbabwe wished for a more faster acting land reform then an inheritance tax system. And you leaving out that the UK treatment of its African citizens is what caused this mess in Zimbabwe in the first place.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Did the UK screw up in Rhodesia? Certainly. But when they left, they left a thriving economy, functional government, and up-to-date infrastructure.

That was more or less still the case fifteen years later when Mugabe came to power. And what damage had been done by the war was easily fixable.

When Mugabe leaves, his successor will get a country with no economy, no infrastructure, and a government apparently designed to make it that way.

You can't blame the Empire for their squandering of everything the Empire left them.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Did the UK screw up in Rhodesia? Certainly. But when they left, they left a thriving economy, based upon white run farms leaving the majority of the people economically disenfranchise functional government again ran by white people disenfranchising 99% of the population(your referring to the Smith goverment right?) , and up-to-date infrastructure.

That was more or less still the case fifteen years later when Mugabe came to power. And what damage had been done by the war was easily fixable.
He also spent the better part of the first two decades with a decent economy and trying to bribe the farmers(with UK money) into land reform.

When Mugabe leaves, his successor will get a country with no economy, no infrastructure, and a government apparently designed to make it that way.

You can't blame the Empire for their squandering of everything the Empire left them.
I hold the empire accountable for failing to live up to their agreements. The Uk had agreed to finance land reform, on the condition that during the first 10 years of such reform that the sellers be willing. Mugabe upheld his end of the bargain, it was the UK the welched when after 10 years had pasted he had elected to purchase land regardless if the seller was willing or not.
Until the UK cut funding for the land reform.
It was after the Uk ceased funding land reform that you see the squatters seizing land. and the farms being taken over by people who have no business running a farm(due to lack of knowledge) which caused the national income drop. Mugabe was elected on the platform of land reform.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7429238.stm


This stuff just keeps getting worse and worse, and frankly, I think it's heading in the direction of civil war. It'd be nice if Mugabe would recognize that and step down, but since when did a dictator listen to that kind of reason?

Mugabe probably does realize the consequences of his actions; he just doesn't care. He's betting he'll win any civil war, and there's a good chance he's right. He's also betting the rest of the world won't lift a finger to stop him, and in that he's almost certainly right. Sure, hundreds of thousands of people will very likely die, but what's it to him?

And you leaving out that the UK treatment of its African citizens is what caused this mess in Zimbabwe in the first place.
This was not us, this was the Rhodesians, who we refused to give independence because they wanted to keep the Africans out of power. Make sure you know what you're talking about before you open your mouth, squire ;)