NationStates Jolt Archive

Both on NSG and the real world I have seen people calling for education to teach "critical thinking," or encouraging children to think for themselves. I don't see how this is possible.
My understanding of education, or any sort of teaching, is that it teaches children facts and new ways to process information, ways that may not be intuitive. I don't see how someone could ever teach anyone to think for himself, as the very act of teaching forces him to think in a way he would not naturally do. That doesn't mean independent thought is impossible, it just occurs without outside interference.
What are NSGers' thoughts? Can you teach independent intelligence, a phrase I just created which refers to what I've been talking about in the rest of this post but feel sounds more official because of the alliteration?

Both on NSG and the real world I have seen people calling for education to teach "critical thinking," or encouraging children to think for themselves. I don't see how this is possible.
My understanding of education, or any sort of teaching, is that it teaches children facts and new ways to process information, ways that may not be intuitive. I don't see how someone could ever teach anyone to think for himself, as the very act of teaching forces him to think in a way he would not naturally do. That doesn't mean independent thought is impossible, it just occurs without outside interference.
What are NSGers thoughts? Can you teach independent intelligence, a phrase I just created which refers to what I've been talking about in the rest of this post but feel sounds more official because of the alliteration?
No, you cannot teach independant intelligence for reasons you have pointed out. Oftentimes, the public school system CLAIMS to teach critical thinking, but in reality, teaches them to think how the school system wants them to. :(

I don't think you can 'teach' it persay, but can give someone the resources (facts, uhm, etc..) to do so.

I think the method is similar to beating the crap out of someone to teach them to fight.

Chuck Norris can teach someone to think for themselves.

So could Socrates.

Teachers can help students get used to thinking for themselves and think critically and beyond what they're taught by encouraging conversations and debates and explanations of ideas and stuff, I think.

Teachers can help students get used to thinking for themselves and think critically and beyond what they're taught by encouraging conversations and debates and explanations of ideas and stuff, I think.

I think teachers can teach new ways to analyze material. For example, I would probably need a teacher in order to learn how to weed out logical fallacies in an argument, or find the theme in a novel, or perform an experiment to test a hypothesis. I also think teachers can allow students to think for themselves, that requires nothing more than leaving kids alone. But even when you tell children to discuss their ideas, you are imparting your own beliefs on how decisions should be made. Not that it's a bad thing.

Nobody can teach how to think by themselves.... but, the teachers can provide all the means so the stutent discovers more easily how to think by himself

drop the sex ed and sports, replace with logic, rhetoric, and latin or greek.

drop the sex ed and sports, replace with logic, rhetoric, and latin or greek.

Mathematics after a point become impractical and useless depending on what you plan on doing in life. English/Literature classes also outlive their use shortly.

Latin and greek are just languages. Why would they somehow be more important?

drop the sex ed and sports, replace with logic, rhetoric, and latin or greek.

Why Latin and Greek? None of the people I knew in high school who took Latin were more independently minded than the rest of us. They could speak Latin a whole lot better, but that was about it.

yes you can teach a student to think for himself.

as with all subjects, he has to want to learn it.

But even when you tell children to discuss their ideas, you are imparting your own beliefs on how decisions should be made.

How so?

Both on NSG and the real world I have seen people calling for education to teach "critical thinking," or encouraging children to think for themselves. I don't see how this is possible.
My understanding of education, or any sort of teaching, is that it teaches children facts and new ways to process information, ways that may not be intuitive. I don't see how someone could ever teach anyone to think for himself, as the very act of teaching forces him to think in a way he would not naturally do. That doesn't mean independent thought is impossible, it just occurs without outside interference.
What are NSGers' thoughts? Can you teach independent intelligence, a phrase I just created which refers to what I've been talking about in the rest of this post but feel sounds more official because of the alliteration?

Isn't that what deprogramming and exit counseling are?

Just because a teacher encourages students to question different sides of an argument and search for answers on their own does not mean that the teacher is imposing some form of learning on his or her pupils. Rather, such a scenario entails training students to make their own judgements about subjects based on facts and their own personal beliefs.

Teaching critical thinking is really quite simple, and it only requires encouragement to develop. Teachers implore students to examine the various aspects of an issue, make their own judgements about it, and then examine other arguments related to it. Thus, students do really think for themselves, and don't accept pre-formulated arguments and "facts" as being true without making their own opinions first.

Think P.E. You don't actually teach kids how to run, do you?

How so?
Two ways: first, it's difficult to be completely objective about anything when dealing with people, and teachers are no different. As for discussion specifically, by saying that discussion leads to "good" ideas, you are causing children to think in a way they may not if they were left to frolic in the fields.

What are NSGers' thoughts? Can you teach independent intelligence, a phrase I just created which refers to what I've been talking about in the rest of this post but feel sounds more official because of the alliteration?
I think people can learn it, and I think that the material to learn it can be provided by a skilled teacher, but I don't think it can be taught, as such. A more accurate term, perhaps, would be that you can train it.

Machines, to an extent, can learn about how to do critical thinking in the sense that we think of it as meta-hypothesis-learning. The idea is, you provide a series of problem solving methods, a series of problems annotated by category and some source of feedback on how well the methods have been applied, and the machine uses a reinforcement learning system to determine how to best link the techniques used to the category of problem in the future.

Obviously, there are subtleties to the machine implementation of this, such as how the problems might be automatically annotated, what kinds of problem-solving techniques to use, what to use as feedback ("have you made the teacher doubt his own correctness?") and so on. But the basic idea of "learning" critical thought through example can still be applied. You get set problems, the teacher analyses what you get out of your technique and if you do well, you tend to repeat what you did this time in the future, while if you didn't, you will try something different next time. As long as your mode of feedback is sufficient (beating your teacher in an argument is still a win! high grades may not necessarily be the reinforcement you're looking for) this'll generate critical thinking skills over time.

Teaching critical thinking is really quite simple, and it only requires encouragement to develop. Teachers implore students to examine the various aspects of an issue, make their own judgements about it, and then examine other arguments related to it. Thus, students do really think for themselves, and don't accept pre-formulated arguments and "facts" as being true without making their own opinions first.

Maybe, but I think that by teaching a specific method of forming opinions, a teacher is almost by necessity shaping what these opinions will be. I don't think is a bad thing, like I've said before. It's better for society and academia if everyone has the same way of finding out stuff.

Two ways: first, it's difficult to be completely objective about anything when dealing with people, and teachers are no different. As for discussion specifically, by saying that discussion leads to "good" ideas, you are causing children to think in a way they may not if they were left to frolic in the fields.

Discussion doesn't cause good ideas, it just leads them to analyze their own thoughts. And I find that asking, "How so?" or, "please elaborate" is a good way to objectively get people to expand upon and think critically about their ideas. *nod*

I feel as if I have had teachers who have helped teach me to think for myself by asking me why I felt a certain way, or telling me to explain or clarify my ideas. *shrug* They were an outside force that guided me, but the conclusions I developed from some of their classes were ideas that I thought of in my own mind, whether they were looking to direct me in that direction or not.

Think P.E. You don't actually teach kids how to run, do you?

well

yes you do.

consider learning how to run a 100 meter dash or the high hurdles.

you have to be taught how to do it most efficiently, eh?

same with critical thinking. everyone knows how to think but can be trained to think better.

drop the sex ed and sports, replace with logic, rhetoric, and latin or greek.
Awesome, a nation full of pretentious fatarses with the ability to speak a dead language and a language of very dubious use. Just what the world needs now, right?

Awesome, a nation full of pretentious fatarses with the ability to speak a dead language and a language of very dubious use. Just what the world needs now, right?
'least they won't invade anywhere. >_>;

Awesome, a nation full of pretentious fatarses with the ability to speak a dead language and a language of very dubious use. Just what the world needs now, right?

Oh, and there'll be a couple billion of them.

And they're hungry. So very hungry.

well

yes you do.

consider learning how to run a 100 meter dash or the high hurdles.

you have to be taught how to do it most efficiently, eh?

same with critical thinking. everyone knows how to think but can be trained to think better.

Thank you for clarifying precisely what I meant, yes.

Thank you for clarifying precisely what I meant, yes.

glad we're on the same page!

I don't think you can 'teach' it persay, but can give someone the resources (facts, uhm, etc..) to do so.

I think the method is similar to beating the crap out of someone to teach them to fight.

Please forgive me, but you've hit one of my pet peeves.

There is no word "persay". There is a latin phrase, "per se", which means "by itself" or "by themselves".

(I don't think I've taught Bann-ed how to think, but I have added a new piece of information to his bank of Stuff Bann-ed Knows. ;) )

'least they won't invade anywhere. >_>;
You sure? Can always just hire mercenaries, after all.
Oh, and there'll be a couple billion of them.

And they're hungry. So very hungry.
Aye, now here's something they should teach people in school : how to plant food crops, also how to cook. Because I seem to be one of the few people who can do these, of my age.

":eek: You actually made an omlette"
"Aye, is unbelievably easy"
":eek: And salad dressing?"
"Yes... the real thing is not grey and out of a bottle, incredibly"

You sure? Can always just hire mercenaries, after all.

Aye, now here's something they should teach people in school : how to plant food crops, also how to cook. Because I seem to be one of the few people who can do these, of my age.

":eek: You actually made an omlette"
"Aye, is unbelievably easy"
":eek: And salad dressing?"
"Yes... the real thing is not grey and out of a bottle, incredibly"

Hehe. A friend of mine went into a panic because she was serving dinner to our friends and forgot about salad dressing. She had oil and vinegar, but wanted something creamy, too.

She was shocked when I whipped up some Thousand Island by mixing mayo, ketchup, mustard and chopped pickles.

I think people can learn it, and I think that the material to learn it can be provided by a skilled teacher, but I don't think it can be taught, as such. A more accurate term, perhaps, would be that you can train it.

K-M's example referred to machines, but I think that teaching someone to think for himself might also be more like training. Parents teach basic skills (like, say, putting on pants) by example, by encouraging the kid's natural desire to mimic, and by reward. That same strategy should work for teaching independent thought: showing a kid that there are reasons behind your actions, e.g. "Don't play in the street because you could get hit by a car," better than "Don't play in the street because I don't want you to," posing questions that encourage him to come up with answers ("What do you think will happen next in the story?") and praising him when he demonstrates thinking for himself ("Wow, that's really creative!")

OK, that's a long run-on sentence, but I hope y'all get the idea. I think one of the benefits of arts education is that it can give people a forum for exercising their powers of independent thinking where there's less fear of coming up with the wrong answer. It's obvious to most five-year-olds that there's only one right answer to a subtraction problem, so it's hard to teach them the value of independent thinking through arithmetic, but it's easy to teach them that there are hundreds of "right" ways to illustrate a story.

I believe in making any person uncomfortable and forcing them to act.

Otherwise I follow the saying," A man chooses, a slave obeys."

I follow the saying," A man chooses, a slave obeys."
Oh the ironing :p

Please forgive me, but you've hit one of my pet peeves.

There is no word "persay". There is a latin phrase, "per se", which means "by itself" or "by themselves".

(I don't think I've taught Bann-ed how to think, but I have added a new piece of information to his bank of Stuff Bann-ed Knows. ;) )

Gah. Not only did I use a word that doesn't exist, but I am not sure I used it correctly.
Now I know.

However, I might be like Shakespeare and just make up my own words as I go.

Thus far telling someone to think for yourself is sort of like saying Hey think like I think.

Both on NSG and the real world I have seen people calling for education to teach "critical thinking," or encouraging children to think for themselves. I don't see how this is possible.
My understanding of education, or any sort of teaching, is that it teaches children facts and new ways to process information, ways that may not be intuitive. I don't see how someone could ever teach anyone to think for himself, as the very act of teaching forces him to think in a way he would not naturally do. That doesn't mean independent thought is impossible, it just occurs without outside interference.
What are NSGers' thoughts? Can you teach independent intelligence, a phrase I just created which refers to what I've been talking about in the rest of this post but feel sounds more official because of the alliteration?

You can teach them to think for themselves, yes. That's fairly easy, actually. Asking questions, getting all sides of the story, no straight-out acceptance of authority, scepticism, empathy, all that sort of thing. That can be taught an practiced at school.

The tricky part is to MAKE them think for themselves when they should....

Thus far telling someone to think for yourself is sort of like saying Hey think like I think.

Nah, not really. It's just saying "I don't get how you can think/believe that. I need an explanation why you would."

Thus far telling someone to think for yourself is sort of like saying Hey think like I think.

what does "thus far" mean?

in the thread? in your life? in human history?

the "problem" with telling people to think for themselves (and why its not particularly popular in public schools) is that sometimes they DO. and when they do its hard to predict what those thoughts might be.

I don't think you can 'teach' it persay, but can give someone the resources (facts, uhm, etc..) to do so.

I think the method is similar to beating the crap out of someone to teach them to fight.

^This^

I do think it's possible. It requires a lot of work that most parents and teachers are neither willing nor able to put in, but it can be done. My father accomplished it by asking me questions and giving me provocative books (no, not that kind).

I'd come home from school and say "the teacher says..." and he'd say, "That's what the teacher says, what do you say?" Then he'd turn me loose in his Sci Fi magazines and books. When I questioned things, he answered as factually as possible. The most important thing he didn't do was to ridicule my ideas as long as I could support them with facts and rational arguments

Essentially, school is where I learned to get along (or not) with people, home is where I learned how to think.

My mother added to this by demanding that I learn standard English. She was a stickler for understanding what words meant and using them correctly. According to her, if you couldn't organize your language, you couldn't organize your thoughts.

I'm sorry but did children turn into automatons when I was asleep again?

its piffle "independent thinking" comes from having a vague idea of the situation which comes from wisdom which is something children are in short supply of

I'm sorry but did children turn into automatons when I was asleep again?

its piffle "independent thinking" comes from having a vague idea of the situation which comes from wisdom which is something children are in short supply of

Independent thinking usually involves informing oneself... which is what children ought to be taught. Wisdom, if relying on previous experiences, is overrated.

Independent thinking usually involves informing oneself... which is what children ought to be taught.

but there are plenty of kids who do apprenticeships these days :confused:

Wisdom, if relying on previous experiences, is overrated.

I'd like to see how far you would get if one day you woke up with no previous experiences to base things on :D

I'd like to see how far you would get if one day you woke up with no previous experiences to base things on :D

Not very far. But I try not to rely on it too much when trying to make up my mind about an entirely new situation :p

what does "thus far" mean?

in the thread? in your life? in human history?

the "problem" with telling people to think for themselves (and why its not particularly popular in public schools) is that sometimes they DO. and when they do its hard to predict what those thoughts might be.

the majority of human history. The say Hey think for your self. when you feel the other person's views disagree with yours. As though anyone who thought for themselves could disagree.

It seems to me that we're not defining "independent thinking," so we're all just running around trying to argue the merits or dismerits of something that everyone has a different conception of.

To me, it is possible to induce someone to "think independently," but not to "teach" someone to. That is because to me, "independent thinking" is dependent upon actually caring about the matter at hand, and having enough of a sense of self-worth that one doesn't define one's thoughts entirely upon external impositions (say, from others in positions of influence or from societal stereotypes).

the majority of human history. The say Hey think for your self. when you feel the other person's views disagree with yours. As though anyone who thought for themselves could disagree.

i assume that they dont mean it when they advocate independent thought. that they say it but hope that no one will do it. its far too dangerous for society to really want to be widespread.

i assume that they dont mean it when they advocate independent thought. that they say it but hope that no one will do it. its far too dangerous for society to really want to be widespread.

the vast majority of times people say think for yourself they are actually saying think like us, because if you don't it is obvious someone else is controlling how you think.

Both on NSG and the real world I have seen people calling for education to teach "critical thinking," or encouraging children to think for themselves. I don't see how this is possible.
My understanding of education, or any sort of teaching, is that it teaches children facts and new ways to process information, ways that may not be intuitive. I don't see how someone could ever teach anyone to think for himself, as the very act of teaching forces him to think in a way he would not naturally do. That doesn't mean independent thought is impossible, it just occurs without outside interference.
What are NSGers' thoughts? Can you teach independent intelligence, a phrase I just created which refers to what I've been talking about in the rest of this post but feel sounds more official because of the alliteration?

If you're thinking in a language of any sort, then you've already failed. Society has made its mark.

the vast majority of times people say think for yourself they are actually saying think like us, because if you don't it is obvious someone else is controlling how you think.

yes its a manipulative way of saying that youre an idiot and if you had half a brain you would agree with me.

If you're thinking in a language of any sort, then you've already failed. Society has made its mark.

AAAAAAAAA!

*sets self on fire and leaps off large building*

I'm in IB. I just finished my first semester of TOK (They have the first semester as the second semester of 11th grade.) We often talked about stuff like this.

I don't really know if you can honestly teach someone to think for themselves. That implies indoctrination = independent thought.

No, you cannot teach independant intelligence for reasons you have pointed out. Oftentimes, the public school system CLAIMS to teach critical thinking, but in reality, teaches them to think how the school system wants them to. :(

Quoted for truth

the question here is really about the mechanics of teaching and learning.

i don't believe you can stuff real understanding of how anything actually works into someone else's head.

but there IS a lot you can do, and a lot, that falls into the catigory of education, that you can.

teaching is only the facilitating of learning, accompanied by varyingly successful methods of inspiring it.

like everything else in the real universe, probability is involved, but is maliable, and by manipulating it, every bit as much as can be accomplished can, and as in most cases that is perhapse as much as can.

if i, or anyone, could force anyone to stop deceiving themselves, to stop being emotionally attatched to the assumptions they, and others arround them (and perhapse partially because of this) are, then i think we'd all be geniuses and imune to spin cycle brainwashing.

but again, there IS a lot that CAN be done, by those with the skill to both inspire and facilitate learning. presuming of course, they themselves are motivated to do so honestly and objectively.

which is of course the major obstical (which is to say, the cultural obstical) to ending the problem's self perpetuating nature.

=^^=
.../\...

I think most people here have this the wrong way around entirely, granted I haven't read each post thoroughly because they all seemed to be running off the same angle.

We actually teach children not to think for themselves. We punish non-conformity (mistakes) and free-thinking (opinion) and drive out independent thought from most kids.

Now, many subjects such as arithmetic do not really allow for imagination or opinion but, in general, we spend so much time looking to compare children against each other that we create a uniform means of assessing them across the spectrum rather than as individual subjects.

The fact is that children are extraordinarily open-minded, they simply have to be in order to properly process all the new information coming their way. Open-minded does not necessarily equal healthy of course, it's simply open. Yet education is a process of shutting down open minded thought to some extent. I've seen kids with wonderfully imaginative writing at 7 years old reduced to failing English by 13.

I'm not really ragging on teachers here, I think most teachers are very open to greater flexibility in teaching yet be it examinations, curricula or other, we conform children rather than 'teach them to think for themselves'.

Here's a wonderful speech on the subject, I've posted it before:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/66

The whole idea of teaching "critical thinking" to begin with is a paradox in itself since you will most likely be punished for thinking outside of the acceptable framework of what the teacher expects. It is more to create an image of choice while laying down all socially acceptable options for you to choose from, rather than actually letting people think what they want with no boundaries. It's like the concept of raising your hand, speak in a proper manner, use proper English, etc. Not saying it's a bad thing or anything since it's important to have some form of conformity in a stable society.

Besides, like every other arm race in this world, a global increase in critical thinking will most likely lead to a global advancement in bullshit and manipulation methods. With so much increase in college graduates and trained decision makers in the current generation, it seems to me that the advertisement industries have evolved just as much to keep up with those changes. So I don't anticipate the relationship between the manipulated and the manipulators to change.

Both on NSG and the real world I have seen people calling for education to teach "critical thinking," or encouraging children to think for themselves. I don't see how this is possible.
My understanding of education, or any sort of teaching, is that it teaches children facts and new ways to process information, ways that may not be intuitive. I don't see how someone could ever teach anyone to think for himself, as the very act of teaching forces him to think in a way he would not naturally do. That doesn't mean independent thought is impossible, it just occurs without outside interference.
What are NSGers' thoughts? Can you teach independent intelligence, a phrase I just created which refers to what I've been talking about in the rest of this post but feel sounds more official because of the alliteration?

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What, you've never solved a puzzle/ riddle/ question by yourself?

What needs to be taught is the scientific method. The real one, not the one that Al Gore and AGW alarmists use. Couple this with instruction as to how to properly research and investigate and this education would make the world a far better place.

Think P.E. You don't actually teach kids how to run, do you?

I agree with you. Critical thinking is innate. What you can do is stop people thinking critically by making them believe they always have to defer to some higher power like the Pope, Karl Marx, Bush etc...