NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/05/30/space.solar/index.html

"It will take a great deal of effort, a great deal of thought and unfortunately a great deal of money," said Keuter. "But it is certainly possible."

And Miller of the Space Power Association said he thinks it will be possible sometime in the next ten years.

"We could see the first operational power satellite in about the 2020 time frame if we act now," he said.


Nope. Solar power will never work. :)

Something wont be done until a Republican is out of the White House. They are too chummy with oil companies. Wouldnt want to hurt daddy's friend's profits, would we?


By the way, the title of this thread is win LG.

Technically solar power isn't renewable per se. It's a limited resource, just limited to a massively long lifespan that is compared to the typical human lifetime infinite for all practical purposes.

How are they going to get it down? Microwaves?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/05/30/space.solar/index.html



Nope. Solar power will never work. :)

LMAO if i had a nickel for every time a scientist said efficient solar power was only ten years away starting from 1970 id be able to afford a giant SUV and not even care how much gas was a gallon.

LMAO if i had a nickel for every time a scientist said efficient solar power was only ten years away starting from 1970 id be able to afford a giant SUV and not even care how much gas was a gallon.

It's already cheaper than coal. (http://www.celsias.com/2007/11/23/nanosolars-breakthrough-technology-solar-now-cheaper-than-coal/)

It's already cheaper than coal. (http://www.celsias.com/2007/11/23/nanosolars-breakthrough-technology-solar-now-cheaper-than-coal/)

Your source is a blog ive never heard of and authored by god knows who. I call BS. Reading up a bit on the technology itself its all just hype as they havnt actually produced anything yet let alone done it for less then coal. We have been hearing hype about the next "new thing" for fourty years now. Lets let them build this thing (its not even built yet) and see if they can keep it running for 5 years without the company going bankrupt then maybe its worth attention.

By the way, the title of this thread is win LG.

True that.

Something wont be done until a Republican is out of the White House. They are too chummy with oil companies. Wouldnt want to hurt daddy's friend's profits, would we?


By the way, the title of this thread is win LG.
I hate to say this, but I agree with you KOL (Unless the GOP goes through a total transformation). *End of the world comes*

In space, no one can hear OPEC scream.

I say we test this. I propose we put the heads and seconds-in-command of OPEC in the next space shuttle and send them up into space to see if we truely can or cannot hear them scream in space.

I say we test this. I propose we put the heads and seconds-in-command of OPEC in the next space shuttle and send them up into space to see if we truely can or cannot hear them scream in space.

The problem is they will just replace them and the price of gas will still suck.

The problem is they will just replace them and the price of gas will still suck.

ah but then the replacements would change the core makeup of OPEC. thus providing a variable that could prove the statement wrong. thus must be tested again to make sure that the changed variable would have no effect on the previous results.

Technically solar power isn't renewable per se. It's a limited resource, just limited to a massively long lifespan that is compared to the typical human lifetime infinite for all practical purposes.

Of course, that's also true of geothermal power. However, if by the time the sun and Earth begin to cool down we have not yet expanded well beyond this solar system, we deserve to go extinct. That would be a fuck-up of truly ungodly proportions that requires suitable punishment.

How are they going to get it down? Microwaves?

I'd assume some kind of wireless transmission.

Interesting technology idea

The satellites would electromagnetically beam gigawatts of solar energy back to ground-based receivers, where it would then be converted to electricity and transferred to power grids

What they don't tell you is if you stand in front of the beam, you get fried. Also, they don't tell you where the beam is.

Technically solar power isn't renewable per se. It's a limited resource, just limited to a massively long lifespan that is compared to the typical human lifetime infinite for all practical purposes.

How are they going to get it down? Microwaves?
When you pull the definition out that far assuming a possible heat death universe nothing is actually infinitively renewable

Wind is limited to solar input of energy
Hydroeletric also limited by heat input to cause evaporation along with gravity

All of them really depend on input to the system

Solar power can work. In space. Getting it to the ground requires a huge extension cord or a giant microwave beam. And there is still the problem of getting all that equipment into space. Fear-monger hippies killed nuclear research and with it the most advanced and powerful sub-light propulsion technologies ever concieved.

My dad was promised flying cars when he was my age and while there are a few today we're still going on 4 wheels. I'll believe it when I see it.

Of course this is just moving in the wrong direction. You don't go to space and start building solar stations to beam power planet-side, you add a grav ring and start colonizing space, slowly building a Dyson Sphere to completely tap the sun.

Solar power can work. In space. Getting it to the ground requires a huge extension cord or a giant microwave beam. And there is still the problem of getting all that equipment into space. Fear-monger hippies killed nuclear research and with it the most advanced and powerful sub-light propulsion technologies ever concieved.

My dad was promised flying cars when he was my age and while there are a few today we're still going on 4 wheels. I'll believe it when I see it.

Of course this is just moving in the wrong direction. You don't go to space and start building solar stations to beam power planet-side, you add a grav ring and start colonizing space, slowly building a Dyson Sphere to completely tap the sun.

I can't imagine them firing a multi-gigawatt microwave beam at the planet is going to make anyone feel real comfortable. Particularly when you consider that such a system is essentially a massive energy weapon. Think about it, instead of pointing your microwave beam at a receiver to turn it into power you just point it at your enemy's capital city.

Dyson sphere is impressive, but not really that practical. Think Matroishka brain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrioshka_brain). A computer built out of every ounce of the solar system's planetary bodies. The sheer computational power would be enough to solve any problem infinitely fast.

I can't imagine them firing a multi-gigawatt microwave beam at the planet is going to make anyone feel real comfortable. Particularly when you consider that such a system is essentially a massive energy weapon. Think about it, instead of pointing your microwave beam at a receiver to turn it into power you just point it at your enemy's capital city.
Not very efficient either. Using a laser would kill well over half of your power collected power right there. Throw in the inefficiency of the collectors, your reciever and power conditioning, and what gets lost in the atmosphere and suddenly you're getting only something in the ballpark of 5% of what's hitting the satellite to the ground. Why bother with that mess for such slim pickings? Put people on the satellite and make enough to encapsulate the sun.

Dyson sphere is impressive, but not really that practical. Think Matroishka brain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrioshka_brain). A computer built out of every ounce of the solar system's planetary bodies. The sheer computational power would be enough to solve any problem infinitely fast.
Great idea! Waste an entire system on a computer.

Great idea! Waste an entire system on a computer.

I'm sure people said something similar when they saw the price tag of the ENIAC. In either case, a planetary sized computer would be able to do things we probably can't even dream of. Solving all the equations needed to produce viable interstellar engines for one. A matroishka brain could easily be a technological singularity that would propel the society that owns it thousands of years ahead in a matter of days.

I'm sure people said something similar when they saw the price tag of the ENIAC. In either case, a planetary sized computer would be able to do things we probably can't even dream of. Solving all the equations needed to produce viable interstellar engines for one. A matroishka brain could easily be a technological singularity that would propel the society that owns it thousands of years ahead in a matter of days.

Maybe earth is a computer designed by another computer to find the ultimate question...

Maybe earth is a computer designed by another computer to find the ultimate question...

In which case... *grabs towel*

In which case... *grabs towel*

The good news is that the Cosmic AC does find the answer to the last question.

Remember the microwave power plants from Sim City 2000? I loved those things! Starting fires with an improperly aimed beam was fun. :D

Remember the microwave power plants from Sim City 2000? I loved those things! Starting fires with an improperly aimed beam was fun. :D
Indeed, human suffering is quite enjoyable. It also makes you a monster. But look on the bright side, none of us are as cruel as all of us.

Indeed, human suffering is quite enjoyable. It also makes you a monster. But look on the bright side, none of us are as cruel as all of us.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but have you ever played a Sim City game? Everyone unleashes a disaster or two on their cities every now and then. Of course, you don't save afterwards, so everything's fine in the end. ;)

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to this space solar power.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but have you ever played a Sim City game? Everyone unleashes a disaster or two on their cities every now and then. Of course, you don't save afterwards, so everything's fine in the end. ;)

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to this space solar power.

It's too inefficient. You'd be better off just covering the Sahara or some ocean with solar panels. Microwave transmissions are a bitch.

Indeed, human suffering is quite enjoyable. It also makes you a monster. But look on the bright side, none of us are as cruel as all of us.

I am. :)

So the Sim City Microwave powerplants may actually become a reality?

Cool.

Indeed, human suffering is quite enjoyable. It also makes you a monster. But look on the bright side, none of us are as cruel as all of us.

"It's an idea that many people seem to latch on to that if we were created by some kind of god, then obviously he did it because he loves us so huggy-muggy much. Never are the holes in this theory more obvious than while playing god games, because it seems that when you place most people in the position of a god and give them responsibility over many tiny lesser beings then their attitude towards them is usually less about beloved children and more about target practice." - Yahtzee (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/25-Sim-City-Societies)

I'm sure people said something similar when they saw the price tag of the ENIAC. In either case, a planetary sized computer would be able to do things we probably can't even dream of. Solving all the equations needed to produce viable interstellar engines for one. A matroishka brain could easily be a technological singularity that would propel the society that owns it thousands of years ahead in a matter of days.

Except that it's not the size of the computer that matters, but rather, what technologies it's using. Even a really big vac-tube computer isn't as powerful as a smaller microchip computer, and those aren't as powerful as computers based around quantum mechanics and exotic physics, and even THEY will probably never be able to do what you are suggesting.

Interesting technology idea

I certainly wouldn't like to see any individual, country or corporation in control of those GIGAWATT LASERS.

They would have to be under multinational control, otherwise you'd end up with a country/corporation/lunatic dictator with SPACE WEAPONS in their arsenal. :D

Something wont be done until a Republican is out of the White House. They are too chummy with oil companies. Wouldnt want to hurt daddy's friend's profits, would we?


By the way, the title of this thread is win LG.

The Democrats haven't been big on really developing space either. We would need to develop a real heavy lift booster to do this, and neither party has ever recommended doing much in space except the useless space station and the space shuttle (which is almost as old as I am).

Now we're getting ready to put some clown on the moon again.

What we need for a viable space presence is an industry that drives us to be there.

Solar power would be perfect.

Of course, you're going to get environmentalists who say that beaming the power back to the ground (which is done by microwaves to rectenna farms on the ground) is unsafe...

Except that it's not the size of the computer that matters, but rather, what technologies it's using. Even a really big vac-tube computer isn't as powerful as a smaller microchip computer, and those aren't as powerful as computers based around quantum mechanics and exotic physics, and even THEY will probably never be able to do what you are suggesting.

A Matroishka brain isn't a single computer. Not like ENIAC. It would be a grid computer. Billions of computing units linked together to produce calculative capabilities far in excess to anything to any single unit. And it doesn't even have to rely on any specific generation of computing technology. You could make it out of vac-tubes or even quantum computers.

Of course, you're going to get environmentalists who say that beaming the power back to the ground (which is done by microwaves to rectenna farms on the ground) is unsafe...

Because having an orbital high output microwave emitter that might be pointed at, oh, say Washington DC by accident, is perfectly safe...

Scratch that, it might be a perfectly legitimate use of it.

Because having an orbital high output microwave emitter that might be pointed at, oh, say Washington DC by accident, is perfectly safe...

Scratch that, it might be a perfectly legitimate use of it.

Usually efficient, high energy power sources make great weapons.

Usually efficient, high energy power sources make great weapons.

So how is it safe again exactly?

So how is it safe again exactly?

For commercial use, the beam is over too wide of an area. The rectenna farm is over hundreds of square killometers, and the energy density is less than what you would receive standing near a radar emitter on the ground.

That said the emitter at the satellite would be a phased array. It could be easily steered (a necessary feature) so that any movement of the satellite could be compensated for.

That also means you could focus the beam to a very small area, and fry, say a single square kilometer, and move that hot spot over anything you like.

Hmm...

Well, one thing we could do for helping us with space is launch a mission to an NEO asteroid and tow it into Earth orbit. (By tow, I mean deflect it's orbit just enough so it's captured by Earth's gravity into a stable orbit. That shouldn't be too hard, right?)

We do that with a couple of different asteroids--high emphasis on at least one made of silicates and water and whatnot, as well as at least one metal-rich asteroid--and we'll pretty much give ourselves far easier access to space than we'd have otherwise, because we'll have huge amounts of resources sitting right there to be used for fuel and spaceship construction.

I certainly wouldn't like to see any individual, country or corporation in control of those GIGAWATT LASERS.

They would have to be under multinational control, otherwise you'd end up with a country/corporation/lunatic dictator with SPACE WEAPONS in their arsenal. :D

Screw multinational control. it needs to be in US hands only. and any other such satellite needs to be shot down for world security reasons.
Well maybe let some NATO countries have them.

I certainly wouldn't like to see any individual, country or corporation in control of those GIGAWATT LASERS.

They would have to be under multinational control, otherwise you'd end up with a country/corporation/lunatic dictator with SPACE WEAPONS in their arsenal. :D

Couldn't use a laser for power transmission, it'd be diffused somewhat by the atmosphere and cause "blooming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon#Blooming)" a distinctly unappealing effect.

For commercial use, the beam is over too wide of an area. The rectenna farm is over hundreds of square killometers, and the energy density is less than what you would receive standing near a radar emitter on the ground.

That said the emitter at the satellite would be a phased array. It could be easily steered (a necessary feature) so that any movement of the satellite could be compensated for.

That also means you could focus the beam to a very small area, and fry, say a single square kilometer, and move that hot spot over anything you like.

You're not making it sound any safer. Any easily steerable microwave emitter of such output would easily be able to knock down any attempts to shoot it down, and the opportunities for abuse would be immense.

You're not making it sound any safer. Any easily steerable microwave emitter of such output would easily be able to knock down any attempts to shoot it down, and the opportunities for abuse would be immense.

it is pretty easy to shoot it down.
fire the missile to knock it down, from the other side of the world, have it orbit the earth and attack the satellite form the back.
Also fire a second missile from the side of the earth it faces having ti timed so that even if it turned around to deal with the first missile it will still get hit by the second missile.
Jees you people think in such 2 dimensional thought processes.

in b4 muslims will crash planes into it.

Wouldn't it be easier to just carpet an area of Earth with solar panels and then use super conductors as a highly efficient distribution network?

You're not making it sound any safer. Any easily steerable microwave emitter of such output would easily be able to knock down any attempts to shoot it down, and the opportunities for abuse would be immense.

I'm advocating its use by sensible nations, in a sensible world.

Obviously, there are no sensible nations, and the world isn't remotely sensible.

Otherwise it would be a great solution to the energy crisis.

For the cost of lofting tons of material into orbit, you get free energy for decades.

All you have to do to get this energy is put up a rectenna and receive it.

In the typical "obscene world scenario" of NS General, the US puts up a few of these, and declares the New World Empire. Resistance would be futile.

1. No more OPEC.
2. Any attempt at resistance would be met by selected cities being torched out of existence.
3. No need to station US troops anywhere.
4. Oh, the first places to get torched would be launch facilities outside of the US.

Yeah, I know, it doesn't make it seem any safer. But see the first line in this particular post - the world is not sensible.

I'm advocating its use by sensible nations, in a sensible world.

Obviously, there are no sensible nations, and the world isn't remotely sensible.

Otherwise it would be a great solution to the energy crisis.

For the cost of lofting tons of material into orbit, you get free energy for decades.

All you have to do to get this energy is put up a rectenna and receive it.

In the typical "obscene world scenario" of NS General, the US puts up a few of these, and declares the New World Empire. Resistance would be futile.

1. No more OPEC.
2. Any attempt at resistance would be met by selected cities being torched out of existence.
3. No need to station US troops anywhere.
4. Oh, the first places to get torched would be launch facilities outside of the US.

Yeah, I know, it doesn't make it seem any safer. But see the first line in this particular post - the world is not sensible.
that would be such a perfect world.
Seriously the rest of the world should help fund these US controlled power supplies.

Wouldn't it be easier to just carpet an area of Earth with solar panels and then use super conductors as a highly efficient distribution network?
It would be even easier for everyone who isn't me to just die, and then for me to turn out the lights before I go. But no, for some reason no one is interested in that energy solution, they all want to "live," as if their existences were all that great to begin with.

it is pretty easy to shoot it down.
fire the missile to knock it down, from the other side of the world, have it orbit the earth and attack the satellite form the back.
Also fire a second missile from the side of the earth it faces having ti timed so that even if it turned around to deal with the first missile it will still get hit by the second missile.
Jees you people think in such 2 dimensional thought processes.

To date, there are no known orbit capable ASAT weapons.

Phased array emitters means that the time it takes to point the beam at something can be measured in seconds, if not less. And given the output, it can fry the missile the moment it launches. You will need a great many missiles.

It would be even easier for everyone who isn't me to just die, and then for me to turn out the lights before I go. But no, for some reason no one is interested in that energy solution, they all want to "live," as if their existences were all that great to begin with.Damn, that IS a good idea. However, I'd imagine the logistics would be problematic. I mean you wouldn't want dead bodies littering the area and festering. I could bring up the Nazis and how even they weren't all that efficient, but that could be interpreted as bad taste.

Whats the paultry sum of 1 Billion Dollars to the United States Government? We can just divert a very small chunk of the money we are spending on keeping Iraq a shithole and get things underway, hell lets double that and see if we can get it done in 5 years? We're willing to spend more money than that on rediculous persuits so why not spend some of that one something worth while?

Whats the paultry sum of 1 Billion Dollars to the United States Government? We can just divert a very small chunk of the money we are spending on keeping Iraq a shithole and get things underway, hell lets double that and see if we can get it done in 5 years? We're willing to spend more money than that on rediculous persuits so why not spend some of that one something worth while?

The oil execs would make a lot of noise and whine about the expense, killing it in congress until someone repackages it as an orbital death ray.

Couldn't use a laser for power transmission, it'd be diffused somewhat by the atmosphere and cause "blooming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon#Blooming)" a distinctly unappealing effect.

When you're supposed to beam down gigawatts of energy I surely hope it will be concentrated when it's going to be 'beamed down electromagnetically'.

Regardless of the transmission frequency chosen it will have to be laser based - be it maser or visible light laser.

You can affect the losses because of blooming by keeping the energy density low enough, ie. effectively a wide area reciever on Earth end.


The alternative to a laser system would be a huge mirror setup which would be highly inefficient and damn expensive to haul into space (and no less dangerous in the wrong hands).