NationStates Jolt Archive

My time in this world is short, as Straughn's autoimmune system has finally identified me as a dissociative entity...I've slipped in status from stowaway to intruder, and his mind will kill me now, and turn the paltry engine of my sentience to a better purpose, perhaps the regulation of some minor organ, or learning how to speak Esperanto.

Before I depart, I shall say a prayer to Whom It May Concern, that anonymous recipient of doctor's notes and letter's of recommendation, that reincarnation is a governing principal of all life, even those faux and small as mine, but also, I'll post one more thread.

When this thread dies, whether unviewed, or merely spammed, or carried to a dozen pages, Jhahannam ends with it, and I will leave it to fall from system like those old soldiers that, I'm told, fade away...

So, my last thread idea: SOCRATES SHOOTS POOL WITH GOD.

Here are the rules, to be ignored or adhered upon...

Socrates is dead, and finds himself at The Lazy Eightball, the pool joint halfway between heaven and hell.

God is playing 9 ball, and is pleased to see so well regarded a thinker come. The Lord of All Creation offers a game, a friendly such, but as in Laches, "whoever comes into contact with Socrates and talks with face to face, is certain to be drawn into a discussion with him. And no matter where the discussion begins, he is carried round and cannot stop until he is led to give an account of himself...."

So take any role you like in this dialogue, God or Socrates, and as many hands stem and prune it, there might be many branches, some fruitful, others withered, and here in nationstates, many thorned...

I'll begin:

God (chalking his cue): Socrates, Protagoras preceded you, came though here...he bore a taint of anger, not entirely spent. Your doing?

Socrates: You pay me kindness, lord, to let me speak my own, and not render your all knowing gaze upon me...words, then, not prophecy? You will scabbard your omniscience, your omnipotence, for this dialogue?

God: I will, and I will not send the angels to sweep the felt to my favor, but I promise this only so long as you are winning...

Socrates: Very well, then....my first question is...

(Socrates fires a clean break, splitting the balls, sinking the 9...as they rack for the next game, the dialogue begins...)

'...want to put some money on this?'

God pondered for a while, desperately trying to remember his current account balance and whether he'd go through that awful moment of forgetting his PIN number just before he wanted to tap it out, he'd surely be pretty drunk by the time he finished but then the thought struck him - this guy drinks hemlock for Christ's sake, I'm sure to beat him.

'Sure?', he said, adding jokingly, 'you know what a penny's worth to me though?'

'I sure got the time', said Socrates, 'so my second questions is...'

Socrates, feeling cocky, took aim by watching his shadow on the wall.

'...want to put some money on this?'

God pondered for a while, desperately trying to remember his current account balance and whether he'd go through that awful moment of forgetting his PIN number just before he wanted to tap it out, he'd surely be pretty drunk by the time he finished but then the thought struck him - this guy drinks hemlock for Christ's sake, I'm sure to beat him.

'Sure?', he said, adding jokingly, 'you know what a penny's worth to me though?'

'I sure got the time', said Socrates, 'so my second questions is...'

Socrates, feeling cocky, took aim by watching his shadow on the wall.

Socrates: You spoke of anger, before, when I arrived...tell me about anger?

God: I know you are accustomed to the role of teacher, but please don't lead me by the hand...shall we quibble now with words? I speak all languages, and tongues of angels. Babel was evicted from the root of its own tower by my preference, and language thus shattered into its many shards, both jagged and dull.

Socrates: Yes, if what I'm told is true, you are mighty. But we agreed to words, here, and I wish no confusion. You said Protagoras was angry. What does that mean to be angry? Have you ever been angry?

God (slowly bending to his shot, but surely only for care of the game, and not at real trepidation at this old Greek): Well...

God: There was this one time when I was angry at Jhahannam for leaving NSG...


In other words, DON'T LEAVE US JHAHANNAM!!

God (continues): I do know Anger. Anger [he shoots] serves me.

<the balls all remain stationary, but the Nine which is somehow plucked from their midst and kills the barmaid>

Socrates: And is this anger a faithful servant?

God: All my servants are faithful. And expendable.

<God passes the cue ball to Socrates without further comment. The second barmaid places the bloodied Nine on the table and goes to check the kegs>

SOCRATES SHOOTS POOL WITH GOD.

Just so we're clear: This Socrates is the Greek philosopher, the great teacher, not the Portuguese Prime Minister, the bastard, right? :p

God: There was this one time when I was angry at Jhahannam for leaving NSG...

In other words, DON'T LEAVE US JHAHANNAM!!

Socrates: Jhahannam, was he not merely a tumorous mass in the brain tissue of Straughn? When he passes, will he not merely be rejoined with the hosted flesh of our friend Straughn?

God: Be plain, Socrates, for my conservative morality is being kind.

Socrates: Very well...if a rain drop falls into the ocean, and rejoins something larger than itself, has it really left you?

God (continues): I do know Anger. Anger [he shoots] serves me.

<the balls all remain stationary, but the Nine which is somehow plucked from their midst and kills the barmaid>

Socrates: And is this anger a faithful servant?

God: All my servants are faithful. And expendable.

<God passes the cue ball to Socrates without further comment. The second barmaid places the bloodied Nine on the table and goes to check the kegs>

Socrates (taking cue ball in hand, in accordance with the rules pertaining to the rules of a foul): May I not know shoot as I please, as you have jumped the ball? You make a fine point, a demonstrate your power. But how many questions does that raise? You give and you take away. But what is the real merit of something that can kill? Consider what kills...carelessness, sloth, hate, fear...

God: I made all life. I can take it.

Socrates: You created life, and so you can take it, at will?

God: Entirely.

Socrates: Do you have no duty to your creation? Once created, has it no self-evident rights, even that might be inviolable to you?

God: I give rights. Rights are endowed by me, the creator.

Socrates: But amongst those rights, there are none that might stay even your hand?

God: I give you all free will.

Socrates: And you can't take it away?

God: No.

Socrates: So, then, it is possible you may give a thing, but not have the right to take it away?

God: I have said as much.

Socrates: Then why can you take life with the sole justification that you gave it?

God: I have my reasons. It is not given to you to know them.

Socrates: Well, let me place my cue and take my shot, and we'll see...

Just so we're clear: This Socrates is the Greek philosopher, the great teacher, not the Portuguese Prime Minister, the bastard, right? :p

The Lazy Eight pool hall is a strange place, by human measure....the tables alone conform to Euclidean models, unlike the Universe, as space-time curvature would throw the games off at the speeds and scales angels are accustomed to...

So, there are Z doors, Z being an element of the integer set, and R Gods, R being an element of the real set...so let us say there are I Socrates', I being the complex set, and play any role you like.

For saints and bastards both shoot pool, and the best and least of either must keep one foot to the floor...

Socrates (taking cue ball in hand, in accordance with the rules pertaining to the rules of a foul): May I not know shoot as I please, as you have jumped the ball? You make a fine point, a demonstrate your power. But how many questions does that raise? You give and you take away. But what is the real merit of something that can kill? Consider what kills...carelessness, sloth, hate, fear...

God: I made all life. I can take it.

Socrates: You created life, and so you can take it, at will?

God: Entirely.

Socrates: Do you have no duty to your creation? Once created, has it no self-evident rights, even that might be inviolable to you?

God: I give rights. Rights are endowed by me, the creator.

Socrates: But amongst those rights, there are none that might stay even your hand?

God: I give you all free will.

Socrates: And you can't take it away?

God: No.

Socrates: So, then, it is possible you may give a thing, but not have the right to take it away?

God: I have said as much.

Socrates: Then why can you take life with the sole justification that you gave it?

God: I have my reasons. It is not given to you to know them.

Socrates: Well, let me place my cue and take my shot, and we'll see...

God: Two shots is the house rule. The second contingent on the first not being foul.

<Socrates looks around, catching the nod of the second barmaid who has gingerly returned from the cellar>

Socrates: Am I then a man? And endowed with this "free will" you allow to men?

God: I grant it for now.

Socrates: Then may I will the outcome of this [he lines up the cue] ... MY shot ?

God: Yes, I grant you that.

Socrates: And my second shot? Will I have that freedom yet?

God: [after a puzzled pause] ... Yes? If your will is so defective ...

Socrates: And if I foul, do you grant that I may have done so by will, and yet grant me my second ?

<God looks to the remaining barmaid, who is smiling to herself as she wipes down the bar>

is it the hand of god that is removing jhahan from the game of (nsg) life or has mrs straughn finally insisted on the consistent use of prescription medications?

is it the hand of god that is removing jhahan from the game of (nsg) life or has mrs straughn finally insisted on the consistent use of prescription medications?

Socrates: Anti-psychotic pharmaceuticals are intended to save lives, are they not? So, if there should be some losses, not unlike firemen who die in the line of duty, or rather even some minds, or even parasitic souls leeching Straughn's blood and his wireless, should we mourn? Were all things meant to last long?

Socrates: Anti-psychotic pharmaceuticals are intended to save lives, are they not? So, if there should be some losses, not unlike firemen who die in the line of duty, or rather even some minds, or even parasitic souls leeching Straughn's blood and his wireless, should we mourn? Were all things meant to last long?

God: I made thee mortal for a reason. No, you may not ask the reason, for you I respect and would not lie to.

Socrates: Anti-psychotic pharmaceuticals are intended to save lives, are they not? So, if there should be some losses, not unlike firemen who die in the line of duty, or rather even some minds, or even parasitic souls leeching Straughn's blood and his wireless, should we mourn? Were all things meant to last long?

God: all life comes to an end. the means to that end are irrelevant. the brief life of a psychotically induced alter ego which is destroyed by the proper application of psychoactive drugs is as valuable as that of any of my children. you may see him again in the eternal life that proceeds this one.

or i may allow his re-incarnation. many of my children prefer to live again and again until they perfect the experience. many also weary of the attempt and end the quest well before perfection.

Socrates: Well, let me place my cue and take my shot, and we'll see...
Socrates: (Examining the table) It would appear that we have yet to break.

God: This is so. For in my first shot, I removed only the ball that disrupted our original game so that we might continue where we left off.

Socrates: Methodical and logical, perhaps, but given that the ball yet returns, and that in addition, I now have the advantage, was this not wasted effort?

God: The point I wished to make - namely, that I can, indeed, be frustrated when my engagement with those whom I love is interfered with - was one which I felt better exemplified than stated.

Socrates: (Placing his ball on the table) Perhaps so, but when it is possible that you might have stated so without affecting play, it seems as though I have simply been granted charity for the sake of argument.

God: Socrates, where in dialogue you encourage a refinement of argument by starting from basic ignorance, I must use demonstration and allegory to increase the level of knowledge of those with whom I converse. Although I can take human form, I cannot so easily work as you do from the purest principles, because to me, the distinction between that which is known and that which is perceived does not exist. Thus, if I am to relate, I must first act in a visible and perceivable way, even if that puts me at a disadvantage.

Socrates: You cover a bad shot well, lord.

God: Just break already.

Socrates: I do so. (Does so. The break scatters the balls across the table, leaving a second shot on the number 3 quite clear)

God: all life comes to an end. the means to that end are irrelevant. the brief life of a psychotically induced alter ego which is destroyed by the proper application of psychoactive drugs is as valuable as that of any of my children. you may see him again in the eternal life that proceeds this one.

Socrates: That I may see myself is a blessing indeed. Yet ... you said "may"

God: Of course. By My grace.

Socrates: And this grace may be withdrawn? That is, I might by your Grace or the lack of same, not see myself, yet live in this eternal life?

God: This I reserve as punishment. But for now, let your punishment be meted out on this felt.

<God places the cue ball for yet another break>

<The remaining barmaid bends down to wipe the floor behind the bar>

Socrates: You cover a bad shot well, lord.

God: Just break already.

Nice one. :D

Nice one. :D

Other slackjawed yokel: "What he said."

For some reason God and Socrates seemed to think they were alone in the Lazy Eightball.

How typical of men these days, thought Kali, Mother of Destruction, sitting at the bar and sipping an indifferently mixed Cosmopolitan. For a short while, she listened to the conversation of the Great Mind and the Universal Mind, but it was just the same pedantic nonsense. She'd heard it all before, every meaningless word of it. Bored, the Dark One went back to leafing through the newspaper on the bar. It was boring, too, but at least it had department store sale ads.

How many times are these two going to play this game before they catch on?, she wondered. For of all the illusions of existence, the Lazy Eightball was the most false. It was nothing but the dream of a dying brain, helplessly shuffling through its collection of pet theories until it completed its inevitable dissolution.

Indeed, it was just as God said -- that which died would simply be reabsorbed into the universe, swallowed and digested by infinite, inexorable Time, to become once again with the body of the Destroyer, the Devourer, the Mother who would, eventually, give birth to it again. In one end and out the other, round and round, rinse and repeat, that was the sum total and entire "to do" list of manifest existence. Always had been, always would be, and that is what rendered conversations such as the one at the pool table utterly pointless.

If anyone could explain that to God and Socrates, it would be Kali, the personification of the eternal cycle of creation and destruction, but of all the beings that have ever manifested, only one ever even bothered to ask her opinion, let alone make the effort to understand it -- and she'd married him. She was only present in the Lazy Eightball to enjoy a bevvie while she waited for Jhahannam to stop talking, so she could feast upon his warm, delicious blood and flesh, tear him apart with her bare hands, add his torn hands to her belt, maybe make a new salad bowl out of his skull. That would be nice. It was a good sized skull. Eventually, she'd squeeze the chatty little darling out into the world again, with a new skull and a newish name but the exact same behavioral patterns, to do it all again with the exact same cast of characters in the exact same way, possibly with the exact same lack of awareness.

"Another?", asked the bartender, seeing that her glass was empty.

"Yes," said the Beloved Mother, "but a little more cranberry this time, please."

"Yes," said the Beloved Mother, "but a little more cranberry this time, please."

Bartender: "Man trouble?"

Kali: "Not exactly"

Bartender: "They call me a maid, but I've been around. It's man trouble, right?"

Bartender: "Man trouble?"

Kali: "Not exactly"

Bartender: "They call me a maid, but I've been around. It's man trouble, right?"

"Well, I suppose. I mean, it usually is, isn't it?", said Kali with a little wink. "But this time, it's not one who matters," she added, mentally comparing God and Socrates to her beloved Shiva sitting in profound meditation back home.

Bartender: "Man trouble?"

Kali: "Not exactly"

Bartender: "They call me a maid, but I've been around. It's man trouble, right?"
Kali: It concerns me more that we deviate from the pattern of Socratic Dialogue. Also, it is notable that there is perhaps too much deconstruction of the fourth wall.

Bartender: Do not jest at such things! I have only finished rebuilding this tavern, following the devastation wrought upon it by the Spartans.

Kali: Some of my finer creations, they were.

Kali: It concerns me more that we deviate from the pattern of Socratic Dialogue. Also, it is notable that there is perhaps too much deconstruction of the fourth wall.

Bartender: Do not jest at such things! I have only finished rebuilding this tavern, following the devastation wrought upon it by the Spartans.

Kali: Some of my finer creations, they were.
Kali: On the other hand, what am I saying? I don't give a crap about the pattern of the Socratic Method. I am the manifestation of the life principle of the tantric path, which means that, to me, all patterns are but the illusions that bind beings in samsara -- i.e. misery-generating nonsense from which beings seek liberation. By all means, let us deconstruct the fourth wall, if it will destroy the fiction that walls matter. Ooh, look (*points at newspaper*), they're having a semi-annual shoe sale at Bloomingdale's.

Anyway, I have no more interest in interfering with the boys' chat than I have in its content. :p

Socrates paused and looked up, with a nod of his head he asked:

'Here's another question, what are the women jabbering about now?'

'Shopping', replied God.

((*munches on popcorn* I love soap operas. Is Osiris still cheating on Isis with Mother Teresa? Stay tuned! ))

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40551000/jpg/_40551905_socrates1986.jpg


Mongooses do bad?

Socrates paused and looked up, with a nod of his head he asked:

'Here's another question, what are the women jabbering about now?'

'Shopping', replied God.
Stealing this. :D

((*munches on popcorn* I love soap operas. Is Osiris still cheating on Isis with Mother Teresa? Stay tuned! ))

((*sticks her hand into LG's pop corn bucket and shushs him* Zip it, mate! I'm just wondering if Jhahannam will makes his apperance on the Lazy Eight as soon as Straughn's system eliminates him...))

"Now then," Socrates posed in a bemusing tone, "suppose that it is Thy shot, and yet I, mortal that I am, will to take a shot out of turn? Hast Thou not affirmed that free will is given to me, and not to be taken away?"

God ponders this for a second.

Socrates takes advantage of his pause to cheat.

"Now then," Socrates posed in a bemusing tone, "suppose that it is Thy shot, and yet I, mortal that I am, will to take a shot out of turn? Hast Thou not affirmed that free will is given to me, and not to be taken away?"

God ponders this for a second.

Socrates takes advantage of his pause to cheat.
God: (After brief contemplation) Indeed, I cannot stop you from doing as you will. I can, however, pre-emptively facilitate the consequences of your agency as I see fit. You will find that, although you have presently taken an extra shot, that shot was yours to take, as I had previously lifted the 9 from the table in lieu of my original break. Does that detract from the fact that you were free to take the shot, or not, as you wished?

God: (After brief contemplation) Indeed, I cannot stop you from doing as you will. I can, however, pre-emptively facilitate the consequences of your agency as I see fit. You will find that, although you have presently taken an extra shot, that shot was yours to take, as I had previously lifted the 9 from the table in lieu of my original break. Does that detract from the fact that you were free to take the shot, or not, as you wished?
Socrates promptly takes another shot.

God says, "Hey! Wait a minute..."

Other slackjawed yokel: "What he said."

Huh?

Huh?

Dionysus: He's just joking. Have a drink!

<pours Lenin some wine>

Kali: On the other hand, what am I saying? I don't give a crap about the pattern of the Socratic Method. I am the manifestation of the life principle of the tantric path, which means that, to me, all patterns are but the illusions that bind beings in samsara -- i.e. misery-generating nonsense from which beings seek liberation. By all means, let us deconstruct the fourth wall, if it will destroy the fiction that walls matter. Ooh, look (*points at newspaper*), they're having a semi-annual shoe sale at Bloomingdale's.

Anyway, I have no more interest in interfering with the boys' chat than I have in its content. :p

[How did I KNOW that the Goddess in this little play was going to be sweet on shoes?]

Socrates promptly takes another shot.

God says, "Hey! Wait a minute..."

Socrates: I wouldn't have imagined that God would use phrases like that -- or is your interjection a nod to my existence within the perception of time as linear?

has mrs straughn finally insisted on the consistent use of prescription medications?The burrito so hot even god couldn't eat it.
That dog won't hunt, Monsignor.

for you I respect and would not lie to.
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/516.gif

My time in this world is short, as Straughn's autoimmune system has finally identified me as a dissociative entity...
... you were itchy.
*sheepish look*

Guess # 2
Jhahannam is a young adult who you have imprisoned since birth. It (for it is unaware of its gender) is granted the use of the internet when it is particularly nice to daddy.

Socrates: I wouldn't have imagined that God would use phrases like that -- or is your interjection a nod to my existence within the perception of time as linear?

"Perhaps", said God, "I work in mysterious ways, your greater mistake is to assume there might be only one reason for what I say or do, it's a common error of your kind to propose a single purpose as rationale or cause for any event. The reality is that along with multiple, if not infinite, purpose and cause, the answer to any question is always yes and no, while remaining free of any contradictions your own 'Socratic' method might seek to dismiss, truth is not merely non-linear, it is also infinite and has no boundaries. I believe your fellow man once called this 'relativity'.

You asked earlier if I am angry, or know anger, the answer is yes and no, I am anger, I am all things, yet I do not act upon anger nor does it have any more bearing on my actions than any other, it is merely one more key to understanding".

Socrates thought for a moment, "So am I going to pot this next ball?"

"Perhaps", said God, "I work in mysterious ways, your greater mistake is to assume there might be only one reason for what I say or do, it's a common error of your kind to propose a single purpose as rationale or cause for any event. The reality is that along with multiple, if not infinite, purpose and cause, the answer to any question is always yes and no, while remaining free of any contradictions your own 'Socratic' method might seek to dismiss, truth is not merely non-linear, it is also infinite and has no boundaries. I believe your fellow man once called this 'relativity'.

You asked earlier if I am angry, or know anger, the answer is yes and no, I am anger, I am all things, yet I do not act upon anger nor does it have any more bearing on my actions than any other, it is merely one more key to understanding".

Socrates thought for a moment, "So am I going to pot this next ball?"

God: Yes and no. Probability or alternate realities, as you might see them, are merely there for me.

Socrates: So when You destroyed Sodom & Gamorrah -- was that You being angry, or a manifestation of anger (which IS You...) that was coincidental to that particular location?

God: Yes and no. Probability or alternate realities, as you might see them, are merely there for me.

Socrates: So when You destroyed Sodom & Gamorrah -- was that You being angry, or a manifestation of anger (which IS You...) that was coincidental to that particular location?

"I did what now when?", replied God, "Although I am certainly responsible for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, in that by creating this reality, which as you say includes both Sodom and Gomorrah and anger, I am therefore responsible for all things within, and indeed without. However, I am not responsible for its destruction either. I played no part in it.

We're at yes and no again."

Socrates potted the 3, 4 & 5 and then considered his next shot.

"In an infinite universe there must be an absolute then, there must be a 'yes' devoid of 'no'?"

God: Two shots is the house rule. The second contingent on the first not being foul.

<Socrates looks around, catching the nod of the second barmaid who has gingerly returned from the cellar>

Socrates: Am I then a man? And endowed with this "free will" you allow to men?

God: I grant it for now.

Socrates: Then may I will the outcome of this [he lines up the cue] ... MY shot ?

God: Yes, I grant you that.

Socrates: And my second shot? Will I have that freedom yet?

God: [after a puzzled pause] ... Yes? If your will is so defective ...

Socrates: And if I foul, do you grant that I may have done so by will, and yet grant me my second ?

<God looks to the remaining barmaid, who is smiling to herself as she wipes down the bar>

God: Well, your will must have consequence...

Socrates: Mine alone? Or yours as well?

God: If you foul, I take ball in hand. That's the rule.

(At a nearby booth, Bachus, enjoying a Pinot Noir vintage 2035 that has yet to be bottled, and yet was always bottled, laughs heartily with his pink eyes and veined nose, and mutters "Heh...God takes his ball in hand...")

Socrates: So, then, my will, or even my mistake, is a factor in the available exercise of your will?

God: I suppose we all are subject to the consequences of another's action, at least I am so long as I have left my omniscience and omnipotence with the barman. I hope he doesn't misuse it...

Socrates: So, then, you allow me my will, but assess consequence?

God: Even if I don't assess it, the ability to act is made potent only by the chance for consequence. An action of no consequence has no power.

Socrates: Can it not be telling?

God: As in, hypotheticals?

Socrates: As in, can the intent of even the impotent reveal something of them?

God: Hrm...have I ever experienced, in a real sense...impotence? I mean, it would only be true impotence if I could not withdraw it at will...

Bacchus: No, see, impotence is when you can't stick it in....

Socrates: Oh, dear....

Socrates: (Examining the table) It would appear that we have yet to break.

God: This is so. For in my first shot, I removed only the ball that disrupted our original game so that we might continue where we left off.

Socrates: Methodical and logical, perhaps, but given that the ball yet returns, and that in addition, I now have the advantage, was this not wasted effort?

God: The point I wished to make - namely, that I can, indeed, be frustrated when my engagement with those whom I love is interfered with - was one which I felt better exemplified than stated.

Socrates: (Placing his ball on the table) Perhaps so, but when it is possible that you might have stated so without affecting play, it seems as though I have simply been granted charity for the sake of argument.

God: Socrates, where in dialogue you encourage a refinement of argument by starting from basic ignorance, I must use demonstration and allegory to increase the level of knowledge of those with whom I converse. Although I can take human form, I cannot so easily work as you do from the purest principles, because to me, the distinction between that which is known and that which is perceived does not exist. Thus, if I am to relate, I must first act in a visible and perceivable way, even if that puts me at a disadvantage.

Socrates: You cover a bad shot well, lord.

God: Just break already.

Socrates: I do so. (Does so. The break scatters the balls across the table, leaving a second shot on the number 3 quite clear)

Socrates: So, if you are to relate, you must first act in a visible and perceivable way...perceived only that an action is take, or that YOU, that is to say God, is the actor?

God: Well, I'm known for mysterious ways...

Socrates: Yes, but to relate, to convey, you must act perceivably....some say they see your hand in everything, others in nothing. If you must act to teach, how can the perceiver's be assured of your signature?

God: Ah, well...

God: all life comes to an end. the means to that end are irrelevant. the brief life of a psychotically induced alter ego which is destroyed by the proper application of psychoactive drugs is as valuable as that of any of my children. you may see him again in the eternal life that proceeds this one.

or i may allow his re-incarnation. many of my children prefer to live again and again until they perfect the experience. many also weary of the attempt and end the quest well before perfection.

Socrates: Well, I found some peer-reviewed journals of psychiatry in the waiting room of the Korean manicurist next door...it seems the drugs have a rate of success somewhat less than even my success at the table tonight...

God: Again, all things die...they try hard to preserve their lives, and on another, at least I'm glad for the times when they do. But even you, Socrates, came to your end.

Socrates: Yes, this I will take as practical fact. But if I reincarnate, I think I should enjoy being reborn in the East...who's shot is it?

For some reason God and Socrates seemed to think they were alone in the Lazy Eightball.

How typical of men these days, thought Kali, Mother of Destruction, sitting at the bar and sipping an indifferently mixed Cosmopolitan. For a short while, she listened to the conversation of the Great Mind and the Universal Mind, but it was just the same pedantic nonsense. She'd heard it all before, every meaningless word of it. Bored, the Dark One went back to leafing through the newspaper on the bar. It was boring, too, but at least it had department store sale ads.

How many times are these two going to play this game before they catch on?, she wondered. For of all the illusions of existence, the Lazy Eightball was the most false. It was nothing but the dream of a dying brain, helplessly shuffling through its collection of pet theories until it completed its inevitable dissolution.

Indeed, it was just as God said -- that which died would simply be reabsorbed into the universe, swallowed and digested by infinite, inexorable Time, to become once again with the body of the Destroyer, the Devourer, the Mother who would, eventually, give birth to it again. In one end and out the other, round and round, rinse and repeat, that was the sum total and entire "to do" list of manifest existence. Always had been, always would be, and that is what rendered conversations such as the one at the pool table utterly pointless.

If anyone could explain that to God and Socrates, it would be Kali, the personification of the eternal cycle of creation and destruction, but of all the beings that have ever manifested, only one ever even bothered to ask her opinion, let alone make the effort to understand it -- and she'd married him. She was only present in the Lazy Eightball to enjoy a bevvie while she waited for Jhahannam to stop talking, so she could feast upon his warm, delicious blood and flesh, tear him apart with her bare hands, add his torn hands to her belt, maybe make a new salad bowl out of his skull. That would be nice. It was a good sized skull. Eventually, she'd squeeze the chatty little darling out into the world again, with a new skull and a newish name but the exact same behavioral patterns, to do it all again with the exact same cast of characters in the exact same way, possibly with the exact same lack of awareness.

"Another?", asked the bartender, seeing that her glass was empty.

"Yes," said the Beloved Mother, "but a little more cranberry this time, please."

God: You seem distracted, Socrates...

Socrates: The fierce woman at the bar, do you think she'd like to play?

God: She has little use for dialogue, talk is not her preferred fashion experience things. Besides, there would be three of us.

Socrates: We could play cut-throat. You take 1-5, she'll be 6-10, and so on...

God: Cut-throat...I believe she favors strangulation, but by all means, invite her...

Socrates (to Kali): Pardon...I am Greek and more accustomed to male conversation, but, may I pose a question. Two actually. One, would you care to play pool with us, and to follow, is there an indivisible unit of sentience? If, after finishing our game, I am rejoined to an ocean or Atman of sorts, is it possible that I will be divided, and separated again as multiple other things, or that I will become gestalt with another and reborn comined with something? I'll buy you a cranberry juice, if you'll play...

((*munches on popcorn* I love soap operas. Is Osiris still cheating on Isis with Mother Teresa? Stay tuned! ))

God: Loki, I have asked you to limit your trickstering to cold climes and dark centuries...

Socrates: Loki? The Bartender?

God: No, Loki is....wait, that was the bartender...

Socrates: The one you left your omnipotence and omniscience with?

God: Shit.

Socrates: Its your shot.

((*sticks her hand into LG's pop corn bucket and shushs him* Zip it, mate! I'm just wondering if Jhahannam will makes his apperance on the Lazy Eight as soon as Straughn's system eliminates him...))

Jhahannam will cease to exist when this thread ends, and if he's lucky, the place he goes to will have a pool table....

"Now then," Socrates posed in a bemusing tone, "suppose that it is Thy shot, and yet I, mortal that I am, will to take a shot out of turn? Hast Thou not affirmed that free will is given to me, and not to be taken away?"

God ponders this for a second.

Socrates takes advantage of his pause to cheat.

God: You demonstrate that the will can be used to cheat.

Socrates: Is will alone sufficient to cheat, or merely necessary?

God: You ask of mens rhea? Are we not past this?

Socrates: I won't have long with you, God, but I don't wish to leave the foundation unlaid.

God: Very well...

... you were itchy.
*sheepish look*

Make no apology, friend...in every incarnation of mine, from Saint Curie to Jhahannam, you have always been a fine host and a good gent.

I will miss you most of all, scarecrow.

God: You demonstrate that the will can be used to cheat.

Socrates: Is will alone sufficient to cheat, or merely necessary?

God: You ask of mens rhea? Are we not past this?

Socrates: I won't have long with you, God, but I don't wish to leave the foundation unlaid.

God: Very well...
Socrates: So tell me then, am I about to cheat once again? And if, having heard Thy infallible pronouncement that yes, I shall cheat, or no, I shall not, have I still the free will to do the opposite?

Socrates: Well, I found some peer-reviewed journals of psychiatry in the waiting room of the Korean manicurist next door...it seems the drugs have a rate of success somewhat less than even my success at the table tonight...

God: Again, all things die...they try hard to preserve their lives, and on another, at least I'm glad for the times when they do. But even you, Socrates, came to your end.

Socrates: Yes, this I will take as practical fact. But if I reincarnate, I think I should enjoy being reborn in the East...who's shot is it?

since this is your last thread....

whats up with the law school thing?

God: You seem distracted, Socrates...

Socrates: The fierce woman at the bar, do you think she'd like to play?

God: She has little use for dialogue, talk is not her preferred fashion experience things. Besides, there would be three of us.

Socrates: We could play cut-throat. You take 1-5, she'll be 6-10, and so on...

God: Cut-throat...I believe she favors strangulation, but by all means, invite her...

Socrates (to Kali): Pardon...I am Greek and more accustomed to male conversation, but, may I pose a question. Two actually. One, would you care to play pool with us, and to follow, is there an indivisible unit of sentience? If, after finishing our game, I am rejoined to an ocean or Atman of sorts, is it possible that I will be divided, and separated again as multiple other things, or that I will become gestalt with another and reborn comined with something? I'll buy you a cranberry juice, if you'll play...
With a long look, Kali took the measure of the stoop-shouldered, bald, little Greek in the old dress -- sorry, toga.

Kali: I will answer both your questions.

No, I would not like to play pool. I'm only into extreme sports, and I notice the ends of those cues are dull and chalky, and unless one of you accidentally swallows one of those balls, I doubt either of you will make that adorable bug-eyed, blue-cheeked, tongue-lolling face that makes me laugh every time I see it. Actually, considering that you're dead and he's a god, I suppose that wouldn't happen even if one of you did choke on a ball. But thanks for asking. *she smiles beatifically* Too bad you're not shooting craps. I'd blow on your dice for you, for luck. ;)

As for what will happen when you finally let go of this image you have created of yourself for yourself, there will be no dividing or rejoining or combining. In nothingness you will be nothing. In something-ness you will be something, and that something will be you, whatever illusion of a form it may take. And you will keep being those things -- nothing and something, alternatingly -- until you finally get it that there is no difference between the two. And then you won't care what you are anymore and will stop obsessing over every little thing. My husband calls that Nirvana. What do the Greeks call it?

This whole thing reads like a Neil Gaiman novel..

This whole thing reads like a Neil Gaiman novel..
Don't it just? [OFF TOPIC] By the way, you should have gone to that lecture last Friday. It was da bomb. :) Thanks for the spare ticket. :fluffle:[/OFF TOPIC]

The Lady had heard someone mention her name, and there she was. Or perhaps she had been there all along - it was always rather hard to tell where she was, or how long she would stay. She sat alone in a dark corner, eyes glimmering green, sipping an apple martini. She had been a friend and an enemy of many there before, and would be again, but for now, she watched the table, and smiled inscrutably as the eight ball just happened to stop ever so slightly short of the corner pocket.

This whole thing reads like a Neil Gaiman novel..

Seriously. It's like what would happen if one put Neil Gaiman, Terry Pratchett, the reincarnated spirit of Douglas Adams, and a bunch of philosophy grad students in a bar together with a bunch of banana daiquiris and let them chat. :)

[OFF TOPIC] By the way, you should have gone to that lecture last Friday. It was da bomb. :) Thanks for the spare ticket. :fluffle:[/OFF TOPIC]

Yeah, ya know, thanks for reminding me I missed that one. I appreciate it, really.

And, on a totally unrelated note, totally not connected to what you said, I hope you die in a fire.

Yeah, ya know, thanks for reminding me I missed that one. I appreciate it, really.

And, on a totally unrelated note, totally not connected to what you said, I hope you die in a fire.
Heeheehee. :p

EDIT: MIT's putting out a DVD of it. They'll probably only charge $50-60 for it. You know, college money. :)

My husband calls that Nirvana. What do the Greeks call it?
Socrates almost answered, and then remembered that Kali was female, and should therefore be ignored. He returned to his attempt to "will" the eight-ball to fall into the pocket by exerting body English.

Unfortunately, he did not speak English. Not even body English.

With a long look, Kali took the measure of the stoop-shouldered, bald, little Greek in the old dress -- sorry, toga.

Kali: I will answer both your questions.

No, I would not like to play pool. I'm only into extreme sports, and I notice the ends of those cues are dull and chalky, and unless one of you accidentally swallows one of those balls, I doubt either of you will make that adorable bug-eyed, blue-cheeked, tongue-lolling face that makes me laugh every time I see it. Actually, considering that you're dead and he's a god, I suppose that wouldn't happen even if one of you did choke on a ball. But thanks for asking. *she smiles beatifically* Too bad you're not shooting craps. I'd blow on your dice for you, for luck. ;)

As for what will happen when you finally let go of this image you have created of yourself for yourself, there will be no dividing or rejoining or combining. In nothingness you will be nothing. In something-ness you will be something, and that something will be you, whatever illusion of a form it may take. And you will keep being those things -- nothing and something, alternatingly -- until you finally get it that there is no difference between the two. And then you won't care what you are anymore and will stop obsessing over every little thing. My husband calls that Nirvana. What do the Greeks call it?

Socrates: We Greeks, at least in my time, were after a different goal, and our sometimes obsessive and rigorously detailed methodology would leave us well short of this nirvana you describe. Instead, we (or rather some) were after Eudaimonia, a sort of blending of virtue and knowledge, that we thought may be the ultimate good. If your model is correct, we simply spin our wheels, making skidmarks across many geometries...so, you won't play then? I'm sorry at that, but someone who has transcended "winning" and "losing", as you seem to have, would likely be too hardy a foe for us...

since this is your last thread....

whats up with the law school thing?

Kind of you to ask. I'm slated to start in Fall, and I suppose I will...

Education has great value, but Jhahannam's mind is dying, and he finds it, now only at the end, no great loss.

There are enough mediocre minds polluting the law, its practice, and unbalancing its inexorable weight on the world. I will attend for one year, as I received some money for the study that I can't really turn down, but I've already realized I don't have the mind to be extraordinary in Law.

I'll see what happens, but much for the same reasons I left Physics, I think I'll just let myself fade away.

The Lady had heard someone mention her name, and there she was. Or perhaps she had been there all along - it was always rather hard to tell where she was, or how long she would stay. She sat alone in a dark corner, eyes glimmering green, sipping an apple martini. She had been a friend and an enemy of many there before, and would be again, but for now, she watched the table, and smiled inscrutably as the eight ball just happened to stop ever so slightly short of the corner pocket.

Bacchus (staggering over to the Lady): I'm sorry to ask, but not sorry enough to not ask...are you a whore?

Lady: No, my blurry eyed sot, I'm a slut. Whore's can be bought, I dally with whom I please...the coin of other's dances to my whim, but I heed not its tune in return.

Bacchus: I'm asking if you'll fuck me for money...

Lady: Do you find this approach often works with women?

Bacchus (clumsily pawing through his wallet): I got....17 dollars....

Lady: I doubt, in your present state, you'd last long enough to be worth my time.

Bacchus: HAHAHAHHhhahahh...hehe....heh...wait, what?

Socrates: So tell me then, am I about to cheat once again? And if, having heard Thy infallible pronouncement that yes, I shall cheat, or no, I shall not, have I still the free will to do the opposite?

God: I'm not telling, besides, I left my Prescience with the bartender...where is he?

Socrates: Said something about the OTB...so, if you've forseen that I'll foul, I must, and if you haven't, I can't?

God: Do as you will...when I set my foot into the wading pool of linear time, I can no longer do the Moonwalk.

Socrates: Are you taking this seriously?

God: Just shoot.

Socrates almost answered, and then remembered that Kali was female, and should therefore be ignored. He returned to his attempt to "will" the eight-ball to fall into the pocket by exerting body English.

Unfortunately, he did not speak English. Not even body English.

God: You do know that leaning your body won't tilt the ball's path?

Socrates: Human sacrifice won't make them love you.

God: Oh, now we're getting personal? Sacrifice is necessary.

Socrates: Why? Who makes that rule?

God: I do, I suppose. I make all rules.

Socrates: Then why are both your feet off the floor?

God: I am Everywhere, always. Therefore my feet are always-

Socrates: My shot.

Kind of you to ask. I'm slated to start in Fall, and I suppose I will...

Education has great value, but Jhahannam's mind is dying, and he finds it, now only at the end, no great loss.

There are enough mediocre minds polluting the law, its practice, and unbalancing its inexorable weight on the world. I will attend for one year, as I received some money for the study that I can't really turn down, but I've already realized I don't have the mind to be extraordinary in Law.

I'll see what happens, but much for the same reasons I left Physics, I think I'll just let myself fade away.

you dont need to be extraordinary in law. you just need to know the law and serve your clients well. if you continue to the end dont go for the boring corporate law route. instead choose some kind of advocacy law in an area that means something to you. the hard work will make up for your lack of greatness.

good luck.

Socrates: We Greeks, at least in my time, were after a different goal, and our sometimes obsessive and rigorously detailed methodology would leave us well short of this nirvana you describe. Instead, we (or rather some) were after Eudaimonia, a sort of blending of virtue and knowledge, that we thought may be the ultimate good. If your model is correct, we simply spin our wheels, making skidmarks across many geometries...so, you won't play then? I'm sorry at that, but someone who has transcended "winning" and "losing", as you seem to have, would likely be too hardy a foe for us...
Kali: I'll just watch you two and decide who I like better, the winner or the loser. ;) *sips her cocktail*

you dont need to be extraordinary in law. you just need to know the law and serve your clients well. if you continue to the end dont go for the boring corporate law route. instead choose some kind of advocacy law in an area that means something to you. the hard work will make up for your lack of [money].

good luck.
Fixed. ;)

Fixed. ;)

yeah that too.

you dont need to be extraordinary in law. you just need to know the law and serve your clients well. if you continue to the end dont go for the boring corporate law route. instead choose some kind of advocacy law in an area that means something to you. the hard work will make up for your lack of greatness.

good luck.

Thank you for the kind wishes. Unfortunately, I don't think I could live with myself as one more tepid fellow doing the job. I am beset upon, almost by the every moment, with my own mediocrity. If Straughn's superior personality wasn't already killing me to preserve its own cognitive integrity, I'd probably just join the French Foreign Legion and disappear.

I do think your advice is good. If its not out of line to ask, have you found the opportunity to work in some area that allows you to pursue something important to you?

Thank you for the kind wishes. Unfortunately, I don't think I could live with myself as one more tepid fellow doing the job. I am beset upon, almost by the every moment, with my own mediocrity. If Straughn's superior personality wasn't already killing me to preserve its own cognitive integrity, I'd probably just join the French Foreign Legion and disappear.

I do think your advice is good. If its not out of line to ask, have you found the opportunity to work in some area that allows you to pursue something important to you?

no. but it seems like a good idea doesnt it?


you are far too tied up in the idea of being the best. DOING the best is a better goal.
-

no. but it seems like a good idea doesnt it?


you are far too tied up in the idea of being the best. DOING the best is a better goal.
-

It does seem like a good idea, it would at least make daily life more bearable, to be engaged in work that satisfies one's own inclination.

Heh, I only wish I'd been sufficiently chained to the need for superlative talent that I had actually manifested it...

I find your views practical and wise, but I would still be little more than a hard working, passable hack. There are mirrors everywhere, even in the eyes of strangers, and I just can't look at myself as banal as I am.

Do you ever think about changing careers, to find something that would be more compelling to you? I'm hesitant to speculate at your age, since you sound experienced but still open-minded, at least in the posts I've read.

It does seem like a good idea, it would at least make daily life more bearable, to be engaged in work that satisfies one's own inclination.

Heh, I only wish I'd been sufficiently chained to the need for superlative talent that I had actually manifested it...

I find your views practical and wise, but I would still be little more than a hard working, passable hack. There are mirrors everywhere, even in the eyes of strangers, and I just can't look at myself as banal as I am.

Do you ever think about changing careers, to find something that would be more compelling to you? I'm hesitant to speculate at your age, since you sound experienced but still open-minded, at least in the posts I've read.


im 51 in june. im not looking for compelling. i could use a challenge i suppose but right now im pretty much drifting.

where are you thinking you will end up? if you have such a need to be the best but have nothing that you want to be the best at, where does that leave you? it seems like a very bad spot.

It does seem like a good idea, it would at least make daily life more bearable, to be engaged in work that satisfies one's own inclination.

I am engaged in work as such, and as you know I'm still widely regarded as an ass. It doesn't change you. If you are the type of person that must love their work, then you shall. If you are not, then you shall not. You aren't searching for work that rewards you, you are seeking to discover exactly what it is that you want to find rewarding.

God: You do know that leaning your body won't tilt the ball's path?

Socrates: Human sacrifice won't make them love you.

God: Oh, now we're getting personal? Sacrifice is necessary.

Socrates: Why? Who makes that rule?

God: I do, I suppose. I make all rules.

Socrates: Then why are both your feet off the floor?

God: I am Everywhere, always. Therefore my feet are always-

Socrates: My shot.

God: As much as it necessary, I do sometimes regret, if it would appropriate to use such a word, given the circumstances, if one were to describe them that way, that you, meaning the entirety of humanity, have so much trouble, meaning difficulty not problems, ...

Socrates: Is it a common problem for you that you must explain every word you use? You interrupted yourself 7 times.

God: Yes. It was not in your time, but you should see mine interpret my "word".

I am engaged in work as such, and as you know I'm still widely regarded as an ass. It doesn't change you. If you are the type of person that must love their work, then you shall. If you are not, then you shall not. You aren't searching for work that rewards you, you are seeking to discover exactly what it is that you want to find rewarding.

We've had our schisms, Joc, and I've seen you on occasion more acerbic then my oversensitive nature might prefer, but I'll wager my McDermott that you are not an ass.

The only person I've ever see even suggest so is a person on this board that I consider the most puerile, disingenuous hypocrite I've seen on the internet, and they have so little credibility as to actually insult a position by endorsing it.

In fact, before encountering you, I often generalized the religious in a less than complimenting light, but after even our disagreements, I find myself more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt until more is known.

As to your closing observation, it would be nice to find something that rewards me; right now, I am very captured by the premise that the only thing worth rewarding is brilliance, and that premise leaves me fucked.

God: As much as it necessary, I do sometimes regret, if it would appropriate to use such a word, given the circumstances, if one were to describe them that way, that you, meaning the entirety of humanity, have so much trouble, meaning difficulty not problems, ...

Socrates: Is it a common problem for you that you must explain every word you use? You interrupted yourself 7 times.

God: Yes. It was not in your time, but you should see mine interpret my "word".

Socrates: I admit to being swayed by your appeal to a precision of language...you've promised not to merely read my mind, and in return I should accommodate you here.

God: Maybe we should speak in German?

Socrates: I speak no German.

God: I could teach you.

Socrates: Your previous suggestion, to well sketch our terms, will suffice.

God: Your question, then?

Socrates: Can one love, without sacrifice? Let us say, paternal love, that of a father to children. Forgive my sexism, I'm greek.

God: Don't worry, the Mormons say I have a cock and balls, or at least did.

Socrates: So then, can one love, as a parent, without blood sacrifice?

im 51 in june. im not looking for compelling. i could use a challenge i suppose but right now im pretty much drifting.

where are you thinking you will end up? if you have such a need to be the best but have nothing that you want to be the best at, where does that leave you? it seems like a very bad spot.

Drifting as in subsistence jobs lacking the coherence of a planned career, or drifting as in moving from town to town in a black conversion van with racing stripes and assault rifles in the back, with a band of ex-army buddies who take on small town corruption while causing the sedans of the evil to be rolled over stacked bails of hay?

Also, I should explain. Its not that I have nothing that I want to be the best at. I would like to be the best at almost anything, whether physics, law, writing, or billiards. I yearn, painfully so, to be the best, or even among the best, perhaps even affably tolerated to compete with the best...but I haven't the Gift in any field to do so.

Yes, its a very bad spot. I'm honestly considering using my off time in the new few years to train for the French Foreign Legion, if only to hope that their crucible of training can make me into something exceptional.

May I ask, what is your preferred pursuit, whether professional, artistic, etc?

We've had our schisms, Joc, and I've seen you on occasion more acerbic then my oversensitive nature might prefer, but I'll wager my McDermott that you are not an ass.

The only person I've ever see even suggest so is a person on this board that I consider the most puerile, disingenuous hypocrite I've seen on the internet, and they have so little credibility as to actually insult a position by endorsing it.

In fact, before encountering you, I often generalized the religious in a less than complimenting light, but after even our disagreements, I find myself more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt until more is known.

As to your closing observation, it would be nice to find something that rewards me; right now, I am very captured by the premise that the only thing worth rewarding is brilliance, and that premise leaves me fucked.

I'm less of an asshole, than I am so obsessive that I forget that people don't read things the way they play in my head, which is more sarcastic and playful than it reads. I'm often expecting someone to laugh when they come back freaking out. Some here have seen me truly take the gloves off and as much as those people dislike me for it, I'm sure if you checked you'd find out that there is no comparison between that and what goes on here.

As to your closing reply to my closing observation, I strongly suspect you underestimate yourself. Writing would certainly be something where you'd be rewarded with brilliance among other things. It's rare for someone to have to kind of wit you have and no skills of value.

Socrates: I admit to being swayed by your appeal to a precision of language...you've promised not to merely read my mind, and in return I should accommodate you here.

God: Maybe we should speak in German?

Socrates: I speak no German.

God: I could teach you.

Socrates: Your previous suggestion, to well sketch our terms, will suffice.

God: Your question, then?

Socrates: Can one love, without sacrifice? Let us say, paternal love, that of a father to children. Forgive my sexism, I'm greek.

God: Don't worry, the Mormons say I have a cock and balls, or at least did.

Socrates: So then, can one love, as a parent, without blood sacrifice?

God: Of course. Your assumption is already apparent. You assume that it is I that require sacrifice. Has it occurred to you that it is humans that find the sacrifice necessary to forgive?

God: Of course. Your assumption is already apparent. You assume that it is I that require sacrifice. Has it occurred to you that it is humans that find the sacrifice necessary to forgive?

Socrates: So, Love can be accomplished without sacrifice then, and you can forgive without sacrifice. So, have you ever called for sacrifice, or Planned for sacrifice, of human or animal life, and if so, why? Do you teach that one is forgiven by blood, or is this a misinterpretation held by some?

Socrates: So, Love can be accomplished without sacrifice then, and you can forgive without sacrifice. So, have you ever called for sacrifice, or Planned for sacrifice, of human or animal life, and if so, why? Do you teach that one is forgiven by blood, or is this a misinterpretation held by some?

God: The answer to your question is in the answer to my question which you seem to have ignored. You are making an assumption that what I've given to humans is about what I need rather than what they need.

(As an aside, this actually very much hits on the topic of my book.)

God: The answer to your question is in the answer to my question which you seem to have ignored. You are making an assumption that what I've given to humans is about what I need rather than what they need.

(As an aside, this actually very much hits on the topic of my book.)

Socrates: Well, as to your question, " could it not be humans that require sacrifice in order to forgive"...I've seen many humans that can forgive others without blood sacrifice.

Can you, God (and I ask this as a question, not to make a point), forgive without blood sacrifice? Can you forgive humans for sin (if there is such a thing) without any blood sacrifice?

That is to say, since at least some humans can forgive others without blood sacrifice, can you do the same?

Or do we suppose that humans need to feel that some sacrifice has been made in order for them to feel forgiven, even though its not really necessary for forgiveness?

Or yet something else?

You are making an assumption that what I've given to humans is about what I need rather than what they need.


Socrates: Let me refine my question then. Do humans need some sort of blood sacrifice in order to be forgiven, to whom is that sacrifice made, have you, God, ever called for sacrifice of animal or other life to be made to you?

Do you suggest that you don't to need receive sacrifice, rather humans need to be made to make sacrifice, of animal blood or a Lamb?

To make it plain, lord, again, have you ever called for sacrifice of human, messiah, or animal, and if so, what need of humanity was satisfied by you calling for this sacrifice?

And to whom is sacrifice, of animal blood, lamb, messiah, made?

Socrates: Well, as to your question, " could it not be humans that require sacrifice in order to forgive"...I've seen many humans that can forgive others without blood sacrifice.

Can you, God (and I ask this as a question, not to make a point), forgive without blood sacrifice? Can you forgive humans for sin (if there is such a thing) without any blood sacrifice?

That is to say, since at least some humans can forgive others without blood sacrifice, can you do the same?

Or do we suppose that humans need to feel that some sacrifice has been made in order for them to feel forgiven, even though its not really necessary for forgiveness?

Or yet something else?

God: Seems you're on to something there. If only someone had thought of it first. Over time there was one thing they didn't quite get right. I said, I give to you as you give to yourself. They wrote, God helps those who help themselves. That translates much more narrow than what they were told.

You've met humans who could forgive without blood sacrifice of course, but how many have you met who could not forgive themselves without feeling like they've paid for their transgression?

Socrates: Let me refine my question then. Do humans need some sort of blood sacrifice in order to be forgiven, to whom is that sacrifice made, have you, God, ever called for sacrifice of animal or other life to be made to you?

Do you suggest that you don't to need receive sacrifice, rather humans need to be made to make sacrifice, of animal blood or a Lamb?

To make it plain, lord, again, have you ever called for sacrifice of human, messiah, or animal, and if so, what need of humanity was satisfied by you calling for this sacrifice?

And to whom is sacrifice, of animal blood, lamb, messiah, made?

OOC: Heh, you answered twice to the same post.

God: Seems you're on to something there. If only someone had thought of it first. Over time there was one thing they didn't quite get right. I said, I give to you as you give to yourself. They wrote, God helps those who help themselves. That translates much more narrow than what they were told.

You've met humans who could forgive without blood sacrifice of course, but how many have you met who could not forgive themselves without feeling like they've paid for their transgression?

Socrates: Must payment be made in blood, on a cross, or with a crown of thorns? Or is that merely imagery, meant to convey stark punishment but not the real shedding of blood as being necessary?

Can one not pay for one's own transgression without blood sacrifice, through some other act of contrition, unaided by the example some innocent messiah being torture executed?

And if the impetus is to "pay for their transgression", having another take their place on the sacrificial altar satisfies?

OOC: Heh, you answered twice to the same post.

Yes, mea culpa...I had more questions to explore the idea, and thought they might branch, so I thought I'd ask the other questions as a separate response, in hopes that following both would be useful, perhaps even cross pollinate.

Yes, mea culpa...I had more questions to explore the idea, and thought they might branch, so I thought I'd ask the other questions as a separate response, in hopes that following both would be useful, perhaps even cross pollinate.

The problem is I think the answer to both is the same. I like the writing and you've done an excellent job of capturing the style of Socrates (at least as we know it). I do think though that you're making a rather obvious effort to trap God, but your showing your assumptions. I think Socrates would give God more credit as an opponent, no? Socrates was beautiful in how well he laid the trap and how effortlessly he concealed it in the deep grass they tread upon. It's a thing of beauty. You pay him tribute in your ability to parody him. I've seen you debate, or anti-debate, and you lay the trap as well as any. Bring your A game. This is your last thread.

Socrates: Must payment be made in blood, on a cross, or with a crown of thorns? Or is that merely imagery, meant to convey stark punishment but not the real shedding of blood as being necessary?

Can one not pay for one's own transgression without blood sacrifice, through some other act of contrition, unaided by the example some innocent messiah being torture executed?

And if the impetus is to "pay for their transgression", having another take their place on the sacrificial altar satisfies?

God: I think you're as likely as I to offer an answer you'll accept, being that you're human and all. Humans have free will. I don't determine what they need to forgive themselves any more than I determine what color shirt they find most pleasing.

The problem is I think the answer to both is the same. I like the writing and you've done an excellent job of capturing the style of Socrates (at least as we know it). I do think though that you're making a rather obvious effort to trap God, but your showing your assumptions. I think Socrates would give God more credit as an opponent, no?

Any assumption made is easily dispelled by direct, straightforward answers to these question, even if that answer takes the form of "Your question assume such and so, and I do/don't such such and so".

Socrates (as I render him here) is more trying to determine which God he is talking to, and answers to questions like "Have you ever called for blood sacrifice?", "To whom is sacrifice made?" and so forth are straight forward and guileless.

God, as an opponent, should have no problem answering these questions if He/She is unashamed of the answer.

Any assumption made is easily dispelled by direct, straightforward answers to these question, even if that answer takes the form of "Your question assume such and so, and I do/don't such such and so".

Socrates (as I render him here) is more trying to determine which God he is talking to, and answers to questions like "Have you ever called for blood sacrifice?", "To whom is sacrifice made?" and so forth are straight forward and guileless.

God, as an opponent, should have no problem answering these questions if He/She is unashamed of the answer.

Read my edit. (sorry, didn't realize you were replying.) You told God you're playing a game with the conversation. If you challenge someone to a game, do you expect them not to play? It's not about shame. That said, the answers are rather obvious in the responses. They simply don't lead you by the nose away from your assumptions. It's to God's benefit that you make invalid assumptions.

God: I think you're as likely as I to offer an answer you'll accept, being that you're human and all. Humans have free will. I don't determine what they need to forgive themselves any more than I determine what color shirt they find most pleasing.

I'd make a distinction between need and preference, between being pleased and having what one needs, but that is trifle. If you don't determine their needs, they choose their own needs? May they choose to have none? Or to not need blood sacrifice?

If a human says "I don't need Christ, on any level", you do not determine that to be false?

And earlier, you said:


God: You are making an assumption that what I've given to humans is about what I need rather than what they need.]

This implies, clearly that you've given something to humans to address what they need, and that "giving" was in relation to sacrifice (if I follow, please correct if it referred to something else).

So, if you do not determine these needs, how are needs determined?

And however they are determined, do humans need sacrifice in order to be forgiven (that is to say, to be the subject of forgiveness)?

The underlined need, what was its origin, what is the consequence if it is not met, and what is the need explicitly?

Read my edit. (sorry, didn't realize you were replying.) You told God you're playing a game with the conversation. If you challenge someone to a game, do you expect them not to play? It's not about shame. That said, the answers are rather obvious in the responses. They simply don't lead you by the nose away from your assumptions. It's to God's benefit that you make invalid assumptions.

Sorry, the game was pool. The conservation, at least at this stage, is to clearly understand God's (as rendered here) position.

If an assumption is invalid, simply challenge it with countermanding information.

Suppose I say "What kind of car do you own?"

and you reply "You assume I own a car."

I then follow with "Do you own a car?"

I seek to trim the invalid assumptions away by direct questions regarding them.

So:

Socrates: I am not averse to being led by the nose. If we will arrive more quickly at your position, lead me by the hand, in the most peripatetic way. And once I have a better understanding of your idea, I will have better questions and fewer assumptions, will I not?

I'd make a distinction between need and preference, between being pleased and having what one needs, but that is trifle. If you don't determine their needs, they choose their own needs? May they choose to have none? Or to not need blood sacrifice?

If a human says "I don't need Christ, on any level", you do not determine that to be false?

And earlier, you said:



This implies, clearly that you've given something to humans to address what they need, and that "giving" was in relation to sacrifice (if I follow, please correct if it referred to something else).

So, if you do not determine these needs, how are needs determined?

And however they are determined, do humans need sacrifice in order to be forgiven (that is to say, to be the subject of forgiveness)?

The underlined need, what was its origin, what is the consequence if it is not met, and what is the need explicitly?

God: Well, if that's not a complicated question then Cameron Diaz wasn't some of my best work. I don't think people choose their own needs so to speak. Some of your needs are a basic function of your place in the universe and some are combination of your frialties and your experiences.

I'll answer your question with a question. Do you need love? Certainly you could survive without it. However to say that humans don't need love would be as valid as the human need for forgiveness. I cannot force them to forgive themselves.

So there is no simple answer to your question. To be explicit, some need a symbolic sacrifice. As such, they are saved by the sacrifice of Christ. I offered of myself when they no longer got what they needed of lambs and other creatures.

And since you'll almost certainly ask, I say some because some do not need a symbolic sacrifice.

It was my preference that man be perfect, but it was not theirs. It has always been amazing to me that man would believe that I am perfect and yet I would make the mistake of designing a flawed creature and then punish them for their flaws. It is for you that you were made flawed and it was equally for you that you are forgiven based on your need for forgiveness.

EDiT: But I am not so perfect that I would not choose a flawed creature to play me who makes both spelling and grammar mistakes.

God: Of course. Your assumption is already apparent. You assume that it is I that require sacrifice. Has it occurred to you that it is humans that find the sacrifice necessary to forgive?

Read this again. Some questions are not open questions. It's an answer. He doesn't say, has it occurred to you that it's POSSIBLE. He says, has it occurred to you that it IS. No "might", no "could", no "possible". The form of a question is important.

God: Well, if that's not a complicated question then Cameron Diaz wasn't some of my best work. I don't think people choose their own needs so to speak. Some of your needs are a basic function of your place in the universe and some are combination of your frialties and your experiences.

Is there any need that is universal to humans, that all humans have?

Do humans need to be forgiven through the human blood sacrifice of a Christ in order to be "saved" from any sort of hell or eternal punishment (if such exists, if it doesn't exist, I can accept that), etc?


I'll answer your question with a question. Do you need love? Certainly you could survive without it. However to say that humans don't need love would be as valid as the human need for forgiveness. I cannot force them to forgive themselves.

Well, some may say that living without love is being "damned" in a sense, some claim that without the forgiveness related to the blood human sacrifice , they are "damned" in the original sense. Is this actually true, or another assumption?

Some claim that humans can't "Live" eternally without the forgiveness offered through blood sacrifice and the associated premise and interpretation of forgiveness.

Do humans need only to be forgiven by themselves, or must they be forgiven in some way dependent on the human blood sacrifice of a Christ figure?


So there is no simple answer to your question. To be explicit, some need a symbolic sacrifice. As such, they are saved by the sacrifice of Christ.

So, you state explicitly here that the sacrifice of Christ was symbolic? Was he literally killed and sacrificed, and if it is symbolic, would it need to be done literally to accomplish the task?

Are there some humans who don't need that sacrifice to be "saved"? That is to say, who are just as "saved" as those who need the sacrifice?

Can one receive access to "Heaven" or "Eternal Life" or "Salvation" without the need for blood human sacrifice? Do these things exist? Is access to them dependent on blood human sacrifice?


I offered of myself when they no longer got what they needed of lambs and other creatures.

And since you'll almost certainly ask, I say some because some do not need a symbolic sacrifice.

So, was the sacrifice of the animals called for by humans, or by you? Was the sacrifice commanded by you? If you did call for it, was it because you saw the humans needed it? Was the sacrifice made to humans, or made to you?

Also, you've said here that Christ was symbolic sacrifice, and that some do not need symbolic sacrifice. May it follow that some people do not need Christ, and can be just as forgiven without Christ?



It was my preference that man be perfect, but it was not theirs. It has always been amazing to me that man would believe that I am perfect and yet I would make the mistake of designing a flawed creature and then punish them for their flaws. It is for you that you were made flawed and it was equally for you that you are forgiven based on your need for forgiveness.

Can and could that forgiveness be accomplished, for at least some, without any sacrifice, bloody, symbolic or otherwise?

Could a person who forgives themselves (without any Christ) be just as forgiven, in your eyes, as one who forgives themselves through symbolic blood sacrifice?

Read this again. Some questions are not open questions. It's an answer. He doesn't say, has it occurred to you that it's POSSIBLE. He says, has it occurred to you that it IS. No "might", no "could", no "possible". The form of a question is important.

Socrates: The answer is simple. It occurs to me that some humans want to feel "forgiven", but many of the ones I've met can forgive without blood sacrifice, animal or otherwise.

Therefore, my answer to you is that some humans can forgive without sacrifice. Can you forgive without sacrifice?

You've intimated that the sacrifice is for the humans benefit, so that they can feel as if they've "paid" for their transgressions. For clarity, is this your position?

Suppose a human said (sincerely): I don't accept or need the blood of Christ. I am honestly sorry for those I've hurt, and I'll try to correct my actions, but I need no blood sacrifice to be forgiven.

Is such a person forgiven in your eyes, if they mean it?

Read this again. Some questions are not open questions. It's an answer. He doesn't say, has it occurred to you that it's POSSIBLE. He says, has it occurred to you that it IS. No "might", no "could", no "possible". The form of a question is important.

Socrates: If we are to adhere so strictly to form, which is fair, my response is "Yes it occurs to me that some humans demand that sacrifice be made to them before they are willing to forgive others".

A person could demand anything before they are willing to forgive others, and some presumably demand sacrifice.

So, now that we've asked the question of humans, may we ask it of you?

Now, since the form of questions is important, and you chided me earlier for ignoring your question, I hope you won't ignore this direct one:

Do you, God, requires sacrifice before you will forgive humans?

This question assumes nothing about whether humans forgive themselves, or what they need to forgive themselves or others. I am asking, do YOU require blood sacrifice in order to forgive?

If you answer is "Has it occurred to you that it is the humans that need the sacrifice to forgive", I reiterate that I have addressed that some humans demand sacrifice to forgive and some don't.

But do you require sacrifice in order to forgive?

Do you feel that mankind has transgressed against you in such a way that they need forgiveness from you?

Or do you they need forgiveness only from themselves, for themselves, and not from you?

Drifting as in subsistence jobs lacking the coherence of a planned career, or drifting as in moving from town to town in a black conversion van with racing stripes and assault rifles in the back, with a band of ex-army buddies who take on small town corruption while causing the sedans of the evil to be rolled over stacked bails of hay?

Also, I should explain. Its not that I have nothing that I want to be the best at. I would like to be the best at almost anything, whether physics, law, writing, or billiards. I yearn, painfully so, to be the best, or even among the best, perhaps even affably tolerated to compete with the best...but I haven't the Gift in any field to do so.

you make yourself sound like a coward who is unwilling to try in case he might fail. its disturbing to me as you seem to be a pretty cool guy who could do so much if he dared to.



May I ask, what is your preferred pursuit, whether professional, artistic, etc?

did you still want an answer to this?

Interestingly enough, Jhahannam, I am in a very similar position to yourself. Except, from what I've seen of your posts, you are far brighter than I am by a long shot. Your lucky to be as talented as you are, imagine how bad you would feel if you were a complete screw up.

Also, when i finally meet someone with whom I might be able to relate to, they happen to be leaving.

Well, it seems my chronic pessimism isn't going away anytime soon. :p

you make yourself sound like a coward who is unwilling to try in case he might fail. its disturbing to me as you seem to be a pretty cool guy who could do so much if he dared to.

did you still want an answer to this?

I did try, many things. I was (or rather am) lacking, and my confession of having no Gift comes only after trying very hard to manifest one in several fields. I have taken that step of bravery, or dive of hubris as it seems in retrospect, of trying very hard at things. I am living proof that sincere effort will not substitute for talent.

And yes, if you are so inclined to discuss it, I'd be pleased to hear. But if I am prying unduly, my apologies.

Interestingly enough, Jhahannam, I am in a very similar position to yourself. Except, from what I've seen of your posts, you are far brighter than I am by a long shot. Your lucky to be as talented as you are, imagine how bad you would feel if you were a complete screw up.

Also, when i finally meet someone with whom I might be able to relate to, they happen to be leaving.

Well, it seems my chronic pessimism isn't going away anytime soon. :p

Its easy to posture myself as bright, since swift and voluminous typing makes one appear to be a quick thinker on the internet. But when the crucible of real intellectual challenge is brought to its working heat, the pretentious impurities of my mind melt away to leave no usable sample of precious insight.

If I may ask, what of your history brands you (and be as vague as you prefer, privacy being prudent policy) as a screw up?

Jhaha - this really delves into the material of my book. I'm not sure I'm ready to do that. TG me. I'd like to talk to you about this.

As a final thread for you, I think my effort was misplaced. This is fast becoming a debate between you and I and not the adventure it was when I arrived. I apologize for pressing you so hard earlier. I was testing you and it was rather arrogant of me to do so. It's certainly not worth messing up your thread over. This is evidenced by the fact that you're breaking up my posts and instead of it reading like every other part of the thread, it reads like a casual debate on religion.

Jhaha - this really delves into the material of my book. I'm not sure I'm ready to do that. TG me. I'd like to talk to you about this.

As a final thread for you, I think my effort was misplaced. This is fast becoming a debate between you and I and not the adventure it was when I arrived. I apologize for pressing you so hard earlier. I was testing you and it was rather arrogant of me to do so. It's certainly not worth messing up your thread over. This is evidenced by the fact that you're breaking up my posts and instead of it reading like every other part of the thread, it reads like a casual debate on religion.

Well, if there is any reason that I'd respect for not wanting to get deeper into it here, a pending working on the subject is a good one.

Honestly, I was really enjoying it, although I think you think I was trying to trap you when I was really just trying to understand your position...(but maybe to better trap you once I understood it? I hope not...)

I don't think you pressed too hard, and you never told me to go fuck myself, as some would.

In a thread about Socrates, testing is not arrogant, its warranted, invited, beloved. Its elenchus, the whole point, to test each other ourselves, to examine in the most piercing way, what we believe.

I had worried you were merely being evasive, but your book, especially if its still in progress, should and must take priority.

You weren't messing up my thread, you were keeping it on life support. If I weren't about to be reabsorbed into Straughn's brain, my uniqueness disappearing from the world forever, I'd say that I'll never forget your kindness.

You whoremonger.

Its easy to posture myself as bright, since swift and voluminous typing makes one appear to be a quick thinker on the internet. But when the crucible of real intellectual challenge is brought to its working heat, the pretentious impurities of my mind melt away to leave no usable sample of precious insight.

If I may ask, what of your history brands you (and be as vague as you prefer, privacy being prudent policy) as a screw up?

Well, the only thing history does is show some of my more...ustable moments. However I don't need history to brand me when I can look in the mirror and see what I am at present.

There are mirrors everywhere, even in the eyes of strangers, and I just can't look at myself as banal as I am.

This does well to sum up my point...

Edit:

Its easy to posture myself as bright, since swift and voluminous typing makes one appear to be a quick thinker on the internet. But when the crucible of real intellectual challenge is brought to its working heat, the pretentious impurities of my mind melt away to leave no usable sample of precious insight.

I would also like to reinforce this statement with some personal experience. When I was little, I would always BS people into thinking I was smart by simply making stuff up and adding enough big words for it to sound authentic, playing to people's intuition to make them think I was smarter than I am.

Ever since then I have always been pretty critical of myself, simply because I used to be so good with the purple prose that I could use it to get people to believe almost anything. I try to avoid that kind of behavior these days but it still seems that whenever I speak people always seem to think I'm so smart (in real life mostly, a lot of that wears off over the Internet for some reason, I guess it's just not my medium), and it really pisses me off that people are so easily impressed.

Well, the only thing history does is show some of my more...ustable moments. However I don't need history to brand me when I can look in the mirror and see what I am at present.

This does well to sum up my point...

Edit:

I would also like to reinforce this statement with some personal experience. When I was little, I would always BS people into thinking I was smart by simply making stuff up and adding enough big words for it to sound authentic, playing to people's intuition to make them think I was smarter than I am.

Ever since then I have always been pretty critical of myself, simply because I used to be so good with the purple prose that I could use it to get people to believe almost anything. I try to avoid that kind of behavior these days but it still seems that whenever I speak people always seem to think I'm so smart, and it really pisses me off that people are so easily impressed.

Well, I was able to quickly cure myself of making stuff up when I worked as a research assistant at a national laboratory in the US. I knew I was surrounded by authentic well trained minds, so I learned to only say what I could reasonably support. Naturally, I spoke little, and only ended up as a co-author on one paper...

Have you ever tried, for a period of, say, one year, to make a deep, focused study of a particular field? If so, which field, why did you choose it, and what was the result? If not, why have you not yet? (If it is for pragmatic reasons, be it youth, money, etc, that is understandable).

Well, if there is any reason that I'd respect for not wanting to get deeper into it here, a pending working on the subject is a good one.

Honestly, I was really enjoying it, although I think you think I was trying to trap you when I was really just trying to understand your position...(but maybe to better trap you once I understood it? I hope not...)

I don't think you pressed too hard, and you never told me to go fuck myself, as some would.

In a thread about Socrates, testing is not arrogant, its warranted, invited, beloved. Its elenchus, the whole point, to test each other ourselves, to examine in the most piercing way, what we believe.

I had worried you were merely being evasive, but your book, especially if its still in progress, should and must take priority.

You weren't messing up my thread, you were keeping it on life support. If I weren't about to be reabsorbed into Straughn's brain, my uniqueness disappearing from the world forever, I'd say that I'll never forget your kindness.

You whoremonger.

Actually, I wasn't being evasive. I was playing with my food. I'm ending it because I have a work in progress, but frankly part of the problem we're encountering is that we're not able to stay in character and actually fully explore this subject without making the thread impossible to follow. If you want life support in this thread, long explorations by me on the subject of potential reasons for the God of Christianity to have created the world in this way are not going to save it.

I've never understand that stigma on monging whores.

Actually, I wasn't being evasive. I was playing with my food. I'm ending it because I have a work in progress, but frankly part of the problem we're encountering is that we're not able to stay in character and actually fully explore this subject without making the thread impossible to follow. If you want life support in this thread, long explorations by me on the subject of potential reasons for the God of Christianity to have created the world in this way are not going to save it.

I've never understand that stigma on monging whores.

Impossible for who to follow? Also, I wasn't really getting into creating the world (or if I was, I strayed there by accident), but rather wanting to get into the idea of sacrifice, who commands it, who requires it, to whom is it made, must it be blood, etc.

Anyway, I'm sorry I wasn't a compelling dish and you resorted to playing with me. I honestly did just want to explore the idea, but straight answers will evidently have to wait until publication of your book, which I can accept.

And dammit, I hate that I'm leaving when I could've sigged "Jocabia: I've never understood that stigma on monging whores."

Have you ever tried, for a period of, say, one year, to make a deep, focused study of a particular field? If so, which field, why did you choose it, and what was the result? If not, why have you not yet? (If it is for pragmatic reasons, be it youth, money, etc, that is understandable).

Well, I lack focus, I am interested in so many different things that I have trouble keeping on track. Also, I have an overactive imagination, so I always end up daydreaming about the implications of what I have just learned rather than keep learning stuff. (this makes me very "book dumb", and led to many bad grades in school, well that and my opinions of the education system in general, and my unstable personality, can't forget that)

I have tried photography, quantum mechanics, anatomy and physics but I always get stuck at road blocks because of my lack of enough general knowledge (particularly in the mathematical parts) to understand large portions of what I read. So my mind ends up wandering and I never get anything done...

I would love to have a good teacher to help me stay focused but that kind of thing takes money and more patients than I generally give people. Plus, I get too defensive and emotionally attached to my misconceptions and people usually don't have enough patients for me either...

Edit:

It's a cycle really, I am too emotionally unbalanced to learn from the world I am currently in because I lack the power (in this case knowledge) to actually do anything about it (thus causing me to be emotionally unbalanced). I despise the wasteland that I see the world as so much that I refuse to function in it and therefore can not change it to suit my tastes.

So I end up just sitting around, existing. I'm helpless because of the prison I create for myself, witch is why I am a piece of useless trash.

And dammit, I hate that I'm leaving when I could've sigged "Jocabia: I've never understood that stigma on monging whores."

So don't leave. Problem solved! :p

Well, I lack focus, I am interested in so many different things that I have trouble keeping on track. Also, I have an overactive imagination, so I always end up daydreaming about the implications of what I have just learned rather than keep learning stuff. (this makes me very "book dumb", and led to many bad grades in school, well that and my opinions of the education system in general, and my unstable personality, can't forget that)

I have tried photography, quantum mechanics, anatomy and physics but I always get stuck at road blocks because of my lack of enough general knowledge (particularly in the mathematical parts) to understand large portions of what I read. So my mind ends up wandering and I never get anything done...

I would love to have a good teacher to help me stay focused but that kind of thing takes money and more patients than I generally give people. Plus, I get too defensive and emotionally attached to my misconceptions and people usually don't have enough patients for me either...

I very much enjoyed differential equations (albeit not as much as I liked Discrete Math), but I knew early on that, although math would be a fine tool, I would not be one to add anything original to its repertoire. Had I greater affinity for the higher mathematics, I also would have gone farther than mere low level researcher in physics.

Are there techniques, methods of practice that would allow you to develop more focus, patience, and so forth?

If you hear of any that demonstrate great efficacy, by all means, post them, as I begin Law in fall, and my own tendencies hinder me much as you describe in yourself.

Too bad one can't simply opt for a career as "idle neurotic wealthy dilettante". I'd be half qualified...

I did try, many things. I was (or rather am) lacking, and my confession of having no Gift comes only after trying very hard to manifest one in several fields. I have taken that step of bravery, or dive of hubris as it seems in retrospect, of trying very hard at things. I am living proof that sincere effort will not substitute for talent.


i dont believe you. i believe that you have started many things but that the fear of being less than the best has left you too scared to continue. its that sticking to it that seperates you from those who are at the top of their fields. no one starts out great. they become great as they develop their skills over time.

i was in barcelona last week. they have a museum there dedicated to picasso. it has many of his earliest works. stuff from when he was a kid, from his time in art school and things he did with his friends at the very beginning of his career.

you know picasso--great artistic genius of the 20th century.

his early work is CRAP. boring, derivative, amateurish, LAME. you would never guess that the creator of such horrible stuff became the great master of modern art. how did such a talentless hack do it?

he stuck to it. he developed his artistic vision. he followed his own ideas of art. he kept at it. after many years he was PICASSO the genius.

perhaps you are over estimating the genius of those you work with and want to emulate. you see them at the top and have no idea how hard they have had to work to become geniuses.



And yes, if you are so inclined to discuss it, I'd be pleased to hear. But if I am prying unduly, my apologies.

im interested in photography. i have certain types of pictures i like to take--wild life, landscapes and candid photos of people who dont know their pictures are being taken. i have a couple of projects that i have considered on and off for a while. its not the photography that keeps me from jumping in but the attendant business stuff that is necessary in order to bring it to the public.

It's a cycle really, I am too emotionally unbalanced to learn from the world I am currently in because I lack the power (in this case knowledge) to actually do anything about it (thus causing me to be emotionally unbalanced). I despise the wasteland that I see the world as so much that I refuse to function in it and therefore can not change it to suit my tastes.

So I end up just sitting around, existing. I'm helpless because of the prison I create for myself, witch is why I am a piece of useless trash.

The feeling of being trash may be associated with those unbalanced emotional responses (my own are probably the only aspect of myself that shows persistence).

You've at least progressed to the point where you know the prison is of your own making; I know many who are still at the stage where they blame everyone else. Some never get past that.

I had always rather hoped that I would find a field that I would become obsessed with, so much so that I would chase its secrets, compulsively so, and be unperturbed by any failures because the exercise itself was what possessed me, not the triumph or loss.

Have you ever found anything that you would do, or rather must do, for that sheer, inexorable, maddening urge, that will not be quieted by fatigue, not dissuaded by failure, but rather sweeps you along with it, unheeding of fear or inadequacy?

I would trade all my remaining days save one, if I could spend that last day so in terrifying love with a subject.

you know picasso--great artistic genius of the 20th century.

his early work is CRAP. boring, derivative, amateurish, LAME. you would never guess that the creator of such horrible stuff became the great master of modern art. how did such a talentless hack do it?

he stuck to it. he developed his artistic vision. he followed his own ideas of art. he kept at it. after many years he was PICASSO the genius.

perhaps you are over estimating the genius of those you work with and want to emulate. you see them at the top and have no idea how hard they have had to work to become geniuses.


That may be true, he became a great artist, but what if you want to be a great everything? People only live so long...

The feeling of being trash may be associated with those unbalanced emotional responses (my own are probably the only aspect of myself that shows persistence).

You've at least progressed to the point where you know the prison is of your own making; I know many who are still at the stage where they blame everyone else. Some never get past that.

Thats the worst part, knowing the prison is of my own making yet being to weak to escape from it makes me feel even more inadequate.


I had always rather hoped that I would find a field that I would become obsessed with, so much so that I would chase its secrets, compulsively so, and be unperturbed by any failures because the exercise itself was what possessed me, not the triumph or loss.

Have you ever found anything that you would do, or rather must do, for that sheer, inexorable, maddening urge, that will not be quieted by fatigue, not dissuaded by failure, but rather sweeps you along with it, unheeding of fear or inadequacy?

I would trade all my remaining days save one, if I could spend that last day so in terrifying love with a subject.

I have always felt that if I could see a clear path to my goal that I could easily not feel the fatigue. I know what I want, I just have no idea of how to get there. So I just wander around, lost.

If I could know exactly what I could get from doing something before I did it I would gladly dive in, however I become too afraid that I will just waste the little time I have alive on a petty and useless effort.

i dont believe you. i believe that you have started many things but that the fear of being less than the best has left you too scared to continue. its that sticking to it that seperates you from those who are at the top of their fields. no one starts out great. they become great as they develop their skills over time.

i was in barcelona last week. they have a museum there dedicated to picasso. it has many of his earliest works. stuff from when he was a kid, from his time in art school and things he did with his friends at the very beginning of his career.

you know picasso--great artistic genius of the 20th century.

He probably spent most of his time in art school trying to mix weed with music to create inspiration, only to find himself smelling like piss and patchouli oil, awakening face down in half a pizza in some strange dorm room and hoping that itch is the kind that goes away with a bath...you know, art school.

Honestly, though, my fear is that for every one dame or gent whose persistence was a road to greatness, there are thousands or more whose persistence is just obstinacy. Dedication might be necessary for brilliance, but I don't think its by itself sufficient. And if I had that missing piece of aptitude, it would surely have at least hinted at its own presence after a year, even if many more years would have been needed to polish it.


his early work is CRAP. boring, derivative, amateurish, LAME. you would never guess that the creator of such horrible stuff became the great master of modern art. how did such a talentless hack do it?

he stuck to it. he developed his artistic vision. he followed his own ideas of art. he kept at it. after many years he was PICASSO the genius.

perhaps you are over estimating the genius of those you work with and want to emulate. you see them at the top and have no idea how hard they have had to work to become geniuses.

My boss in physics discovered a now well regarded effect whilst still an undergraduate. Although he did work very hard after that, and continues to do so, his mind's merit and potential was at least anticipatable by his twenties. My mentors in mathematics tell me that, in their field, the truly extraordinary are usually (not always, but typically) detected while still children. The same, I'm told, in music.

You make a salient point, though, that many of the greats take a lifetime to hone their Gift, and I imagine many take more than their lifetime for their Gift to be appreciated. But at least, at some point, that Gift showed its glimmer in them. In me, well....not so much.


im interested in photography. i have certain types of pictures i like to take--wild life, landscapes and candid photos of people who dont know their pictures are being taken. i have a couple of projects that i have considered on and off for a while. its not the photography that keeps me from jumping in but the attendant business stuff that is necessary in order to bring it to the public.

I don't remember who (maybe it was you?), but an artist here on nationstates was once kind enough to relate a lot of the difficulties percumbent to art as a profession. It must be a difficult line to straddle, having a natural proclivity for creation, yet still subject to the brutal and often inescapable laws of the business environment.

I have a sister who works as an art director in New York...tells me she knows a photographer who makes something like $20k for a day's work. Am I correct to assume that sort of position is akin to a "rock star" photographer (much like high end designers, engineers, consultants, etc)?

I would imagine most shutterbugs have to work weddings on occasion to pay the bills?

Thats the worst part, knowing the prison is of my own making yet being to weak to escape from it makes me feel even more inadequate.

I have always felt that if I could see a clear path to my goal that I could easily not feel the fatigue. I know what I want, I just have no idea of how to get there. So I just wander around, lost.

If I could know exactly what I could get from doing something before I did it I would gladly dive in, however I become too afraid that I will just waste the little time I have alive on a petty and useless effort.

Yes, I'm often bothered by the lack of guarantees at the outset. The very real possibility of failure vexes me. I'm told that my attitude in this regard is profoundly unrealistic, cripplingly so. It seems that you and I are data points that support the premise that it is not a helpful attitude.

Yet, I'm stubborn and want to be assured that effort will assure success, when in reality, it simply improves your chances. For the successful, though, that seems to be enough. I hate those fucking people, heh.

For a game, name three things that you haven't tried yet, but would like to try, and why you chose them. This is my last thread, and I want to make conversation.

That may be true, he became a great artist, but what if you want to be a great everything? People only live so long...

Great zombie jesus, your ambition surely dwarfs any of mine!

I would be happy, or at least content, to be a master of any one field...but to want to be great at all of them?

Still, it would be interesting, the prohibitive restraints of time aside, to see how, over the centuries, mastery in one field might hasten the learning of another, as the threads of excellence and insight from disparate disciplines could be woven together, lessons learned in one art translated to another...what a way to kill time that would be....

So don't leave. Problem solved! :p

Alas, even if Straughn's physiology wasn't adamant on ejecting me, I've exhausted my ability to contribute anything of worth. Time to return these few neurons to Muryavet's Kali's cycle...

Yes, I'm often bothered by the lack of guarantees at the outset. The very real possibility of failure vexes me. I'm told that my attitude in this regard is profoundly unrealistic, cripplingly so. It seems that you and I are data points that support the premise that it is not a helpful attitude.

Yet, I'm stubborn and want to be assured that effort will assure success, when in reality, it simply improves your chances. For the successful, though, that seems to be enough. I hate those fucking people, heh.

For a game, name three things that you haven't tried yet, but would like to try, and why you chose them. This is my last thread, and I want to make conversation.

Actually, I wouldn't mind so much if I just knew the probabilities. I am obsessed with being efficient and prepared and I fear dying without accomplishing anything so much that I flat out refuse to do anything that I think has a chance of being unproductive. It isn't the failure that bothers me as much as not knowing how the failures will lead my to my end goal.

For me it's like a fork in chess, I want to create a catch 22 for life so I win no matter what it throws at me. It just turns out that life is really good at screwing up your stragety...

For the game:

Humm, well, I would like to try le parkour, the efficiency philosophy seems really cool.

Traveling, I would like to go see the world, but doing that probably raises your chances of death, injury, sickness and there is no guarantee that you will gain anything of value from it. It just seems like it would be a good learning experience if none of that other stuff happened.

Learning to fight, I want to be able to beat people up for too many reasons to count.

Edit:

Great zombie jesus, your ambition surely dwarfs any of mine!

I would be happy, or at least content, to be a master of any one field...but to want to be great at all of them?

Still, it would be interesting, the prohibitive restraints of time aside, to see how, over the centuries, mastery in one field might hasten the learning of another, as the threads of excellence and insight from disparate disciplines could be woven together, lessons learned in one art translated to another...what a way to kill time that would be....

Exactly, not only would it be cool to watch, it would be pretty close to being a god.

Actually, I wouldn't mind so much if I just knew the probabilities. I am obsessed with being efficient and prepared and I fear dying without accomplishing anything so much that I flat out refuse to do anything that I think has a chance of being unproductive. It isn't the failure that bothers me as much as not knowing how the failures will lead my to my end goal.

For me it's like a fork in chess, I want to create a catch 22 for life so I win no matter what it throws at me. It just turns out that life is really good at screwing up your stragety...

For the game:

Humm, well, I would like to try le parkour, the efficiency philosophy seems really cool.

Traveling, I would like to go see the world, but doing that probably raises your chances of death, injury, sickness and there is no guarantee that you will gain anything of value from it. It just seems like it would be a good learning experience if none of that other stuff happened.

Learning to fight, I want to be able to beat people up for too many reasons to count.

Edit:

Exactly, not only would it be cool to watch, it would be pretty close to being a god.

I endorse travel. I was able to get a work visa to Japan to teach English, a great six months. Wonderful food, lovely women, horrid company, little money, but an immersing life experience. Even if you have to do bar work or backpack across country and live in hostels, I'd encourage it if circumstances allow. Even if they don't at first, see what you can do.

As for learning a martial art (or even street brawling), you and I both might benefit from balancing our emotional oscillations before taking up that sport.
Or they may be some sports where it can be done concurrently, like Aikido or something.

I endorse travel. I was able to get a work visa to Japan to teach English, a great six months. Wonderful food, lovely women, horrid company, little money, but an immersing life experience. Even if you have to do bar work or backpack across country and live in hostels, I'd encourage it if circumstances allow. Even if they don't at first, see what you can do.

As for learning a martial art (or even street brawling), you and I both might benefit from balancing our emotional oscillations before taking up that sport.
Or they may be some sports where it can be done concurrently, like Aikido or something.

Heh, the thing about learning a martial art for me is that I would probably critique it as I was learning it because I have enough knowledge of body movements to know that a lot of it really isn't efficient. I'm sure the instructor wouldn't take too kindly to this...

Also, although I am unstable, I have plenty of self control from physical violence. The only times I become violent are when I feel physically intimidated, learning a martial art would make me feel this intimidation a bit less and thus make me less unstable and violent. (most of my homicidal desires are sparked by fear of being physically attacked by the person my homicidal fantasies usually focus on)

Then again, I do seem like the type to go on a killing rampage so maybe you're right...

Heh, the thing about learning a martial art for me is that I would probably critique it as I was learning it because I have enough knowledge of body movements to know that a lot of it really isn't efficient. I'm sure the instructor wouldn't take too kindly to this...

Also, although I am unstable, I have plenty of self control from physical violence. The only times I become violent are when I feel physically intimidated, learning a martial art would make me feel this intimidation a bit less and thus make me less unstable and violent. (most of my homicidal desires are sparked by fear of being physically attacked by the person my homicidal fantasies usually focus on)

Then again, I do seem like the type to go on a killing rampage so maybe you're right...

Well, the rampage thing has been done to death. You should express your turmoil through something that will leave you with the cash to retire early, like becoming a viciously effective CPA or something.

Well, the rampage thing has been done to death. You should express your turmoil through something that will leave you with the cash to retire early, like becoming a viciously effective CPA or something.

See, I don't really think in the normal confines of society. The idea of retirement and money perplexes me. What perplexes and frustrates me even more is the idea of getting a dead end job that you hate while learning absolutely nothing of relevance to yourself. I just can't motivate myself to sell my labor to someone for small material gains. No creativity, no learning, not even happiness, nothing but useless pieces of paper.

I despise the paper because to me it represents the total lack of power and capital I really have, and the absolute stupidity and wastefulness I would have to indulge in to acquire even meager amounts of it when others with far less ambition get a free ride. It's disgusting...

Slaves to bits of tree pulp, bondage induced by trees and economic concepts. Ideas and tress, I just don't see how people can so easily chain themselves to such foolishness.

Alas, even if Straughn's physiology wasn't adamant on ejecting me, I've exhausted my ability to contribute anything of worth.

I doubt this very much.

But perhaps when Jhahannam is ejected, he could find a new home over at Generalite Mafia? They like crazy alternate personalities there. :)

See, I don't really think in the normal confines of society. The idea of retirement and money perplexes me. What perplexes and frustrates me even more is the idea of getting a dead end job that you hate while learning absolutely nothing of relevance to yourself. I just can't motivate myself to sell my labor to someone for small material gains. No creativity, no learning, not even happiness, nothing but useless pieces of paper.

I despise the paper because to me it represents the total lack of power and capital I really have, and the absolute stupidity and wastefulness I would have to indulge in to acquire even meager amounts of it when others with far less ambition get a free ride. It's disgusting...

Slaves to bits of tree pulp, bondage induced by trees and economic concepts. Ideas and tress, I just don't see how people can so easily chain themselves to such foolishness.

Oh, I dunno, I sometimes think ideas are one of the few things we can really create.

And cash is just a symbol, a medium of exchange...its a pragmatic thing, serve its purpose, and you can trade it for pool cues, and in Tijuana, a few hours of not being bothered by one's own failures.

But yes, I've worked my share of subsistence jobs...I wish I had the maturity to just take work as one of the facts of living, but since I don't enjoy life, and enjoy working even less, it does seem like a bad rate of exchange...

I doubt this very much.

But perhaps when Jhahannam is ejected, he could find a new home over at Generalite Mafia? They like crazy alternate personalities there. :)

This is a region of some kind?

Sadly, when my small mass of tissue is finally exterminated, there will be no remaining self awareness for me to even be a personality.

I'm told that personality comes from an ancient word meaning "mask"...kind of telling, I wonder if I was ever real, or just a mask, and when the mask is torn away, what will be underneath?

Probably just Straughn's weird dream about his Uncle Larry defeating Chuck Norris to the soundtrack from Big Lebowski...

Oh, I dunno, I sometimes think ideas are one of the few things we can really create.

And cash is just a symbol, a medium of exchange...its a pragmatic thing, serve its purpose, and you can trade it for pool cues, and in Tijuana, a few hours of not being bothered by one's own failures.

But yes, I've worked my share of subsistence jobs...I wish I had the maturity to just take work as one of the facts of living, but since I don't enjoy life, and enjoy working even less, it does seem like a bad rate of exchange...

Well, my rage isn't really directed at the paper itself or the concept of currency, it is the foolishness as to how it's distributed. I like ideas, I just think the ideas behind the society in which I live are utterly stupid.

What you call maturity I call slavery and acceptance of that bondage in the eyes of your masters. Letting society turn you into yet another unit of production rather than forging your own path...

Well, my rage isn't really directed at the paper itself or the concept of currency, it is the foolishness as to how it's distributed. I like ideas, I just think the ideas behind the society in which I live are utterly stupid.

What you call maturity I call slavery and acceptance of that bondage in the eyes of your masters. Letting society turn you into yet another unit of production rather than forging your own path...

You can make your own path, but you still have to buy your own gas...or boots, or machete, or whatever tools you want to bring along.

Frustration at society can be understandable at times, but you have to either move or work around it, and intense resentment, or rage, sometimes just make that harder.

I'm going to hit the sack. If you decide to learn the Kung Fu, let me know if it really focuses you, or gives you discipline.

Or yoga. Lots of hot women in yoga. Try yoga.

I'm going to try yoga.

You can make your own path, but you still have to buy your own gas...or boots, or machete, or whatever tools you want to bring along.

Frustration at society can be understandable at times, but you have to either move or work around it, and intense resentment, or rage, sometimes just make that harder.

I'm going to hit the sack. If you decide to learn the Kung Fu, let me know if it really focuses you, or gives you discipline.

Or yoga. Lots of hot women in yoga. Try yoga.

I'm going to try yoga.

I am well aware of the fact that my rage is mostly misplaced. That is why I direct it at human nature and society in general rather than any isims or political philosophies. My rage is self destructive, but I don't really care about myself, If I can destroy the problems that I see around me then the fiber of my being is irrelevant.

I know that people can forge there own path, it just seems so insignificant and wasted when met with such resistance and imprisoned by your own helplessness. I want to do something with real meaning, but the priorities of society seem to think that goal has little value.

Living in a world that gives you no value and in which you give yourself no value is incredibly depressing when you feel that you have the potential to be much greater than the arbitrary limitations placed upon you by the world and by yourself.

I suppose I could just aim for mediocrity and toss my delusions of grandeur, but I hope that I would have the courage to put a bullet in my head before I was forced to endure that decision.

This is a region of some kind?

Sadly, when my small mass of tissue is finally exterminated, there will be no remaining self awareness for me to even be a personality.

I'm told that personality comes from an ancient word meaning "mask"...kind of telling, I wonder if I was ever real, or just a mask, and when the mask is torn away, what will be underneath?

Probably just Straughn's weird dream about his Uncle Larry defeating Chuck Norris to the soundtrack from Big Lebowski...

http://generalitemafia.ipbfree.com/

It is a home for craziness, spam, inner and outer demons, flirtation, spam, nonsense, deep philosophical discussions, role-playing, in-jokes, spam, friendship, arguments, spam, pandas, spam, pirates, ninjas, spam, spam, and spam. I think either Jhahannam or his erstwhile host might fit in rather well there.

Sadly, when my small mass of tissue is finally exterminated, there will be no remaining self awareness for me to even be a personality.
I'd rent you a room in mine, but it's pretty crowded here already, and if you want anything done, you'd have to go through the council like everyone else.

http://generalitemafia.ipbfree.com/

It is a home for craziness, spam, inner and outer demons, flirtation, spam, nonsense, deep philosophical discussions, role-playing, in-jokes, spam, friendship, arguments, spam, pandas, spam, pirates, ninjas, spam, spam, and spam. I think either Jhahannam or his erstwhile host might fit in rather well there.

^this, except there's actually more spam than she alludes to.

Alas, even if Straughn's physiology wasn't adamant on ejecting me, I've exhausted my ability to contribute anything of worth.
Muravyets: Impossible!

Time to return these few neurons to Muryavet's Kali's cycle...
Kali: Finally! *downs last cocktail* But don't get too comfortable in oblivion. With your karma*, you'll be back in the trenches before you know it. Hope you enjoy being a free-verse poet in the body of a cockroach. ;)

Oh, and just an aside: As one who deals in eternal oceans of blood every day, I would like to point out that the point of blood sacrifice is not to purchase forgiveness or anything else, but to give something, i.e. life in the form of a river flowing from self to universe, from within to without (and back again). Just a point of information. Also, mortification of the flesh (which I am also experienced in, by the way) is a method of spiritual purification by release from attachment to form, which liberates consciousness from the restrictive confines of material existence. Try it sometime, you'll see what I mean. I have no idea where those Christians got that forgiveness thing from.

*EDIT: Actually, it occurs to me that as long as you continue to obsess over your fear of failure, your soul will know nothing but pain on the Wheel of Life. You really should try to relax about stuff like that.

*cries, buggery nose and all, á lá Chris Crocker, to Straughn´s body to:*

YOU´RE LUCKY HE EVEN PERFORMS BRILLIANT SATIRE FOR YOU! LEAVE TEH JHAHANNAM ALONE!!!!

*cue to the mascara running down her cheeks*

To be honest Jhananarama, your biggest problem is not fear of failure, it's that beneath the initial flash of blase intelligence, you might just find you're completely ordinary and the real danger is that once you've moved on from the fun and into the belly-button contemplation of who you are, other people may find you ordinary as well. That's what really frightens you.

The key is, we're all pretty ordinary, yet we're all uniquely ordinary and that's what makes us special so I'd advise you to stop navel-gazing, relax and spend more time discovering what makes other people ordinary.

Other people are just that much more extraordinary.

I'd rent you a room in mine, but it's pretty crowded here already, and if you want anything done, you'd have to go through the council like everyone else.

The council of Jedi?

Muravyets: Impossible!


Kali: Finally! *downs last cocktail* But don't get too comfortable in oblivion. With your karma*, you'll be back in the trenches before you know it. Hope you enjoy being a free-verse poet in the body of a cockroach. ;)

Oh, and just an aside: As one who deals in eternal oceans of blood every day, I would like to point out that the point of blood sacrifice is not to purchase forgiveness or anything else, but to give something, i.e. life in the form of a river flowing from self to universe, from within to without (and back again). Just a point of information. Also, mortification of the flesh (which I am also experienced in, by the way) is a method of spiritual purification by release from attachment to form, which liberates consciousness from the restrictive confines of material existence. Try it sometime, you'll see what I mean. I have no idea where those Christians got that forgiveness thing from.

*EDIT: Actually, it occurs to me that as long as you continue to obsess over your fear of failure, your soul will know nothing but pain on the Wheel of Life. You really should try to relax about stuff like that.

Hm, Mortification of the flesh...can I just get a tattoo?

*cries, buggery nose and all, á lá Chris Crocker, to Straughn´s body to:*

YOU´RE LUCKY HE EVEN PERFORMS BRILLIANT SATIRE FOR YOU! LEAVE TEH JHAHANNAM ALONE!!!!

*cue to the mascara running down her cheeks*

Mya-heeee! Mya-hooooo! Mya-haaaaaay! Mya-haaahaaaa!

To be honest Jhananarama, your biggest problem is not fear of failure, it's that beneath the initial flash of blase intelligence, you might just find you're completely ordinary and the real danger is that once you've moved on from the fun and into the belly-button contemplation of who you are, other people may find you ordinary as well. That's what really frightens you.

Jhahannam (with fingers in ears, eyes clenched desperately shut): Laalalallalalalal-I'm not listening-lalalalallalala-I can't hear you-lalalalal!


The key is, we're all pretty ordinary, yet we're all uniquely ordinary and that's what makes us special so I'd advise you to stop navel-gazing, relax and spend more time discovering what makes other people ordinary.

Other people are just that much more extraordinary.

We all have so many facets, and I don't doubt that even the talented and the brilliant have angles from which their edges are mundane, but deep past the lint of their navels, they have that one sharp, clear plane of their cut that lets them discover or write or compose or defend or explain something that just somehow sets them apart.

The Russian over in math might not comb his hair, he might wear a tucked in, buttoned up flannel shirt with dress slacks, no belt, socks, and sandals, he might be just as bad a cook as I am, but he's solved problems that had baffled many in his field for years. He has boogers, and probably bad credit, and small office. He's an ordinary man, just as killable by a drunk driver or cholesterol as I am.

But he's a fucking genius, and I'm not, and I can't abide it. This dude can't abide.

You're right that I'm ordinary, and you're right that I'm terrified everyone knows. Where we differ is, I believe there are some who, at least in some tiny but salient way, are bloody amazing. My envy pollutes my love for them, and the mixture has poisoned my daily life, the haze of its fumes now distorts everything beautiful I look at.

Even the craft of those who are ingenious is beyond me to even appreciate, must less contribute to....

That's the difference, I suppose. Others are as ordinary as me, yes, but a few of them are, couched in their ordinary humanity, Gifted.

*snip*

I should write this correctly.

Beware what you wish for because, at some point, not being ordinary can be a real prison, narrowing people's perception of you and neatly slotting you into an easy definition.

You might not be ordinary because you're visibly disabled, you might not be ordinary because you're a genius at maths, you might not be ordinary because you're extremely popular.

All of these can create a burden of expectation, you may call one example positive, another you may term negative but the fact is the burden remains regardless of the nature of expectation. You've no idea how depressing that is.

Celebrate being ordinary, being anonymous, because it allows you to observe apart from a given situation, it allows you to be without definition, a gift in itself, doesn't mean you're not unique.

Anyway, are you some kind of middle child or what?

I should write this correctly.

Beware what you wish for because, at some point, not being ordinary can be a real prison, narrowing people's perception of you and neatly slotting you into an easy definition.

I guess what I'd like is to be so incredible at something, I wouldn't care what other's thought of me, or how they defined me. To love the Art so much, that even if my work was not acknowledged in my life, or even ever, that my time with it, even alone with it, was worth it.


You might not be ordinary because you're visibly disabled, you might not be ordinary because you're a genius at maths, you might not be ordinary because you're extremely popular.

All of these can create a burden of expectation, you may call one example positive, another you may term negative but the fact is the burden remains regardless of the nature of expectation. You've no idea how depressing that is.

I'm going to take your word on this one, because I don't know anything about being distinguished by those expectations. Although my professors and instructors at various schools and labs expressed hopes for me, I ran away when I realized I would only disappoint them.


Celebrate being ordinary, being anonymous, because it allows you to observe apart from a given situation, it allows you to be without definition, a gift in itself, doesn't mean you're not unique.

My ordinariness is closer to banality, which has its own definition, an expectation (the only one I can fulfill) of mediocre doings.

If I only wanted to be unique, I suppose I could accomplish that, but so does everything else. A watery green trail of shit from a sick drunk staggering stalwartly to nowhere is unique, but its not brilliant (unless you're that guy from American Beauty that thought everything was beautiful).


Anyway, are you some kind of middle child or what?

Um, youngest of some marriages, only of others, oldest of yet more.

So, B, it sounds like you have some experience with the burden of distinction...if its not nosey, may I ask your particular passion?

The council of Jedi?
Same idea. Only less well organised, not as many lightsabers and more ice cream and booze.

Council thinking is a good way to keep tabs on alternate identities while still allowing them to flourish into specialists. There is only one "me", but there are several distinct aspects of that "me" that need to negotiate and compromise with one another in creating action. Consequently, if that process is done right, I can actually be that bit more confident in my own judgements than any of the identities in isolation, because I've arrived at a conclusion by the resolution of opposing perspectives.

The bureaucracy is occasionally a problem, but it's worth it for the extra institutional validity.

Same idea. Only less well organised, not as many lightsabers and more ice cream and booze.

Council thinking is a good way to keep tabs on alternate identities while still allowing them to flourish into specialists. There is only one "me", but there are several distinct aspects of that "me" that need to negotiate and compromise with one another in creating action. Consequently, if that process is done right, I can actually be that bit more confident in my own judgements than any of the identities in isolation, because I've arrived at a conclusion by the resolution of opposing perspectives.

The bureaucracy is occasionally a problem, but it's worth it for the extra institutional validity.

Nicely put - I remember a skit by some comedian where he goes on about night time person having no respect for morning person.

"Come on, let's have us another drink"
"I'm so going to be hungover"
"You're not hungover now though are you, we'll drink some water before we sleep, it'll be fine..."

Same idea. Only less well organised, not as many lightsabers and more ice cream and booze.

Council thinking is a good way to keep tabs on alternate identities while still allowing them to flourish into specialists. There is only one "me", but there are several distinct aspects of that "me" that need to negotiate and compromise with one another in creating action. Consequently, if that process is done right, I can actually be that bit more confident in my own judgements than any of the identities in isolation, because I've arrived at a conclusion by the resolution of opposing perspectives.

The bureaucracy is occasionally a problem, but it's worth it for the extra institutional validity.

Heh, sweet.

Do the more nefarious delegates have little beards?

Nicely put - I remember a skit by some comedian where he goes on about night time person having no respect for morning person.

"Come on, let's have us another drink"
"I'm so going to be hungover"
"You're not hungover now though are you, we'll drink some water before we sleep, it'll be fine..."
The minutes of said council meetings are pretty weird to look at.

0:01 - Motion tabled to go and study by Achievement
0:02 - Procrastination wants to hold off debate until after Azumanga Daioh. Overruled by Introspection, acting as chairman, who wants to spend time on this.
0:04 - Panic notes that the exam is tomorrow. Doesn't contribute any plan of action.
0:05 - Stubbornness agrees to the motion, noting that we agreed in motion 2573a to do well in these exams.
0:06 - Security notes that exam success would make things easier for the future. Career interjects with a point of information of the relative unimportance of this exam, but is otherwise neutral.
0:08 - Empathy wonders whether we could be doing something better than exam studying. General nods of approvement from Physical Embetterment and Curiosity
0:09 - Achievement comes back on the relatively short amount of time that would be spent studying. Empathy concedes the point; Curiosity, still unsatisfied, expresses frustration. Achievement placates by giving curiosity a Type-system problem to do while debate continues.
0:10 - Obsessive Compulsion would rather tidy the room first. Achievement argues that since work can be done elsewhere, this is rather pointless. Curiosity rather likes the idea of working outside. Procrastination would accept this as a compromise.
0:12 - Surreal Tangent suggests that Giraffes somehow be worked into the picture. Animal Empathy piques up enthusiasm, having otherwise been content to sit and listen. Pragmatism, however, uses his veto powers to overrule this suggestion.
0:14 - Amusement reiterates Procrastination's call for an Azumanga Daioh episode. This, bizarrely, is backed up by Motivation, who reminds the house that one episode deals with the question of Studying.
0:16 - Obsessive Compulsion requests that a particular course of action be decided upon. Achievement and Amusement agree on a compromise where Azumanga will be watched and immediately following this work will begin.
0:18 - Righteous Indignation rebukes the house for taking no notice of Empathy's earlier suggestion, and threatens to filibuster ruling on studying. Agreement is made that Righteous Indignation will be allowed to post on NSG while watching Azumanga.
0:20 - Vote is taken on the amended course of action - 23 in favour, 2 against (Procrastination and Physical Embetterment), 4 abstentions (Animal Empathy, Career, Panic and Lust) and one grapefruit. Vote passes with sufficient majority.

Heh, sweet.

Do the more nefarious delegates have little beards?
I'm fairly sure Intellectual Endeavour has a full chinstrap, and that Selfish Ambition has a goatee. Introspection doesn't like to get tied down to aesthetics, though.

*snip*

:)

Vaguely Related Tangent has complete and constant veto over my entire committee, she's married to Procrastination so it's a powerful voting block.

To be honest Jhananarama, your biggest problem is not fear of failure, it's that beneath the initial flash of blase intelligence, you might just find you're completely ordinary and the real danger is that once you've moved on from the fun and into the belly-button contemplation of who you are, other people may find you ordinary as well. That's what really frightens you.

The key is, we're all pretty ordinary, yet we're all uniquely ordinary and that's what makes us special so I'd advise you to stop navel-gazing, relax and spend more time discovering what makes other people ordinary.

Other people are just that much more extraordinary.
Speak for yourself, Barringtonia! :p

I am egotistical enough to believe with absolute certainty that I am one of the niftiest human beings ever to grace the planet (it's genetic; both sides of my whole family believes that about themselves; my relatives are wrong about themselves, of course; "there can be only one").

As a result of the inherent Wonderfulness of Me(tm), everything I do is automatically perfect. Even my failures are perfect failures. Spectacular and memorable, by default.

For example, I realized this week that I have misplaced my cell phone. On the surface, this would seem like a ordinary problem that millions of ordinary schlubs deal with every day. But not when I'm the one doing it. Muravyets Misplaces Her Cell Phone is a cosmic mystery that calls into question notions of time, space, reality, consciousness and perception, because of Muravyets' unique inherent traits, which render her amazing -- to wit, my so-called "memory." See, the last memory I have of my cell phone is of me connecting it to its charger and leaving it on the desk in my bedroom. Earlier this week, I went to get it, and it's not there. The charger is, but no phone. Now, not only do I have zero memory of taking the phone off the charger, I also have no idea how long ago I put it on the charger in the first place. So I have no idea how long it's been missing (it's not my primary phone). I have already searched every pocket and bag I've been anywhere near in the past six months, without success. This week, I shall start tearing apart the entire house looking for it. After that, I guess I'll have to get a new one.

So far, this drama has entertained three people. I complained to my mom about it, including my usual pleas for an explanation as to "how is this possible?", to which my mom answered (as usual), "Sweetheart, how your mind works is something I will not even try to comprehend." Me: "How my mind does what? 'Works', did you say? ;)", because I seem to have self-awareness instead of phone-awareness. It also elicited uproarious laughter from the friends I had dinner with yesterday, with whom I went through a brief logistical panic in setting a time to meet them because of my phone-lackage. Knowing these people, I am confident that the story will be known to at least 30 other people by next Wednesday, and they'll tell two people and so on and so on -- and the fame of the unique and amazing and practically-perfect-in-every-way Muravyets will spread.

Now the point of all this is that when one takes account of the Wonderfulness of Me(tm) factor, then one realizes that one is already incredible and, thus, everything one does becomes a revelation of that incredibleness. Note, one's actions don't make one incredible or great or wonderful; they just demonstrate one's inherent wonderfulness.

And make no mistake -- there is not a single human being on the planet who is not endowed with a notion of the Wonderfulness of Me(him/her)(tm). For instance, Jhahannam, who so fears to be ordinary and bland, would not have that fear if he were not already convinced of his own potential for wonderfulness. And when people are looking for ways to fulfill potential, that means they believe the capacity to be great/wonderful/incredible is already there. They are just looking for that one thing that will show them off to best advantage, like a cat who chooses to sleep on the one cushion in the house, the color/texture of which most flatters their fur.

So your advice for him to be content to be ordinary for the freedom it gives will be meaningless to one who already knows himself to be extraordinary.

Now, mind you, while ordinariness may be boring, ANONYMITY is one of the most valuable things life has to offer because it really is the key to personal liberty. I cultivate it carefully and try to maintain a delicate balance between fame and anonymity. My brother claims to have read a study once (or he could have just made this up, actually) that says that, for any individual, the maximum comfortably sustainable level of fame is to have about 5000 people know who you are. More than that will get burdensome, apparently. Makes sense to me. Jha should keep it in mind will searching for his road to incredibleness.

Hm, Mortification of the flesh...can I just get a tattoo?
No. Or rather, yes, if you have a very low pain threshold, and if you get lots and lots of them done the traditional way in Fiji over at least three months of daily 8-hour sessions.

*snip*

Ah ha ha ha, your ordinariness is so... banal, I laugh at it.

You speak to someone who lost his phone one night, was too embarrassed to tell friends he'd lost his phone.... again, woke up early to head to the phone company to get his number back and stopped to buy a phone on the way.

Get this, he then placed that phone, still in its packaging, on the counter to fill out the forms to get his number back and then went to the booth to receive a replacement SIM card only to realise on receipt that he'd left his phone on the counter and, on turning around, realised it had been stolen already.

I have the world record for phone stolen speed - no one comes close to my incompetency.

The point remains, we're all pretty amazing but hell, we know that, no point worrying whether other people recognise that because it's far more interesting to spend time discovering how those people are amazing in their own way and laugh at them instead because lord knows people are laughing at us.

Okay, further proof that I have been gone WAAAAAAAY too long. I don't have a shred of a clue what's going on here.

The minutes of said council meetings are pretty weird to look at.

Brilliant! :D I decided to review the recent minutes of my own committee as well, to see what what's been hanging them up on a recent prioritization issue:

0:01 - Motion tabled to prioritize tasks by Achievement. Tasks for discussion include new artwork, art show proposal submissions, 4-page plot synopsis of old novel; first stage outline of new novel; next three chapters of exercise writing project; looking for a new day job.
0:02 - Procrastination wants to hold off debate until the weather stops being so nice. Supported by Physical Embetterment, who is tired of not seeing its tasks on the agenda. Introspection, acting as chairman and reflecting that I can think outdoors as well as in, reserves the right to summarily rule on this motion later, after further consideration.
0:04 - Panic notes that I am running out of both money and time to submit proposals for 2009 gallery calendars. Pragmatism notes that this should raise both day job and show proposals up the list, but stops short of choosing one over the other for top priority.
0:05 - Stubbornness moves to lock the committee in camera until a resolution is reached but does not offer an opinion about the tasks list itself. Obsessive Compulsion seconds the motion and accords equal priority to all the tasks, to the vocal annoyance of the other committee members.
0:06 - Security notes that the money issue is of more immediate concern. Career comments that the day job will not advance its agenda but, when asked which agenda, fails to choose between art and writing. Motivation notes that need for money could be a powerful incentive to advancing Career's agenda, but both Security and Panic object to this idea as too dangerous.
0:08 - Inspiration notes that work is flowing at the moment on writing and moves to give priority to that work. Career and Achievement both signal agreement, but Panic brings up money again, and Regret chimes in with the art gallery schedules, with support from Doubt and Obsessive Compulsion.
0:09 - Achievement comes back on the relatively short amount of time needed to write and submit show proposals, which would allow them to be raised up the list without too much sacrifice of other things, addressing half of Panic's issues. Panic is partially placated, for now.
0:10 - Obsessive Compulsion objects to the list in general, pointing out every single outstanding task that is not on it. Achievement calls Obsessive Compulsion out of order, with support from Procrastination.
0:12 - Distraction reminds the committee that new business is also pending. Achievement calls for a censure of both Distraction and Obsessive Compulsion, but Inspiriation, Curiosity and Career ask to see Distraction's notes.
0:14 - Amusement requests copies of the minutes of this meeting for future reference. Motivation asks how much longer the meeting is scheduled for.
0:16 - Obsessive Compulsion, with support from Pragmatism, requests that the original tasks list be reviewed in detail, with each committee member outlining the required steps to accomplish each item from its personal agenda. During this process, Procrastination lists all the undone things that could interfere with the accomplishment of each item.
0:18 - Resignation moves that no further action be taken until further review of Procrastination's issues. Seconded by Pragmatism, under protest.
0:20 - Vote is taken on Resignation's motion - 14 in favour, 3 against (Obsessive Compulsion, Panic and Stubbornness), no abstentions, 2 absentees (Empathy and Idealism).

Ah ha ha ha, your ordinariness is so... banal, I laugh at it.

You speak to someone who lost his phone one night, was too embarrassed to tell friends he'd lost his phone.... again, woke up early to head to the phone company to get his number back and stopped to buy a phone on the way.

Get this, he then placed that phone, still in its packaging, on the counter to fill out the forms to get his number back and then went to the booth to receive a replacement SIM card only to realise on receipt that he'd left his phone on the counter and, on turning around, realised it had been stolen already.

I have the world record for phone stolen speed - no one comes close to my incompetency.

Hehe, I used to do stuff like that, too -- when I was a beginner. :p

Hehe, I used to do stuff like that, too -- when I was a beginner. :p

Ah ha ha ha....*grumbles*

Ah ha ha ha....*grumbles*
:fluffle: ;)

:fluffle: ;)

*grudgingly accepts fluffles*

Ooh so warm!

Now pay for the privilege of fluffling the amazing me!

50c please.

Brilliant! :D I decided to review the recent minutes of my own committee as well, to see what what's been hanging them up on a recent prioritization issue:
Y'know, I think we've just invented an awesome new method of self-psycho-analysis. :D

Both Procrastination and Career find this an exciting prospect, and Achievement is looking a little smug, though Panic is still shouting at the house about tomorrow's exam, so I'd better go do something about that. 0_o

God: Loki, I have asked you to limit your trickstering to cold climes and dark centuries...

Socrates: Loki? The Bartender?

God: No, Loki is....wait, that was the bartender...

Socrates: The one you left your omnipotence and omniscience with?

God: Shit.

Socrates: Its your shot.

~Returning then to the scene from which we have deviated there-in is Loki mentioned and found, stroking amiably along that which is the all pervasive power of God. Whom, in his game with Socrates, was racking the balls for the next round. Loki would rise and to Socrates would speak then.~

Loki: Would one not mind if then I inquire unto you some questions, oh great minded one. And of them is there most prominent then alas. If I may, then shall I play in your stead to leave you free to ponder unharrassed by distractions thusly so that you are free to ponder?

~Before an answer could be said, Loki would take the cue from Socrates hand and begin to chalk it as he spoke.~

Loki: Much appreciation, oh master of thought. So then in accordance shall a lay at your a feet a trivial puzzle that has racked my mind oh so thoroughly of late.

Today, what is the meaning of today? Is it not but yesterday to tomorrow, and tomorrow to yesterday? Perhaps it is the present? And if so what is the present? Is it not the past? Is it not the future? And if it is both, does that not make it neither? And if it is neither, how can it be both? And if it is the essence of both which makes it neither, then how can it not be both? And if the present is neither, without being both, how is it that we define it by both? And if it is defined by both, must it not possess the quality of both? And if neither is, then how can it posess their qualities? For what is the past but what has come before? And what is the future but what has yet to come? But if you travel to the future or the past would you not simply exist in the present? For what is the present but the moment in which the conscious mind is aware of? Or perhaps there is no time, only a concept of it in our imaginings that we see as reality? And if our reality is only imaginings, would it not thus be fantasy and not reality? And if it is not reality then what is reality?

What is the essence of reality? What makes something real? Touch? Taste? Smell? Sight? Sound? The ability to know it? The ability to understand? And if it is are ability to sense, know, or understand it would that not only be our mind interpreting what is? And if it is an interpretation of what is, then would it still be real? How can it be real if it is no longer what is, but a concept of what is? And if it is only a conept, then would it not be only what we imagine it is? And what of understanding? For there are things beyond our comprehension, does our mind simply perceive this into something we can understand? And if that is the case would that not only be a dream of what truly is? And if thus is so, how would one know that which is beyond our comprehension from that which is not? And if we cannot know, then who is to say that all things our not beyond our comprehension and that all that 'is' is not simply the world in a form which we can understand?

And if it is only a form that we can understand, then is it not then our conscious' fantasy of reality? And if it is merely a fantasy of reality then would it be real? And if the fantasy of reality is reality, then would not reality be fantasy? And if reality is fantasy, would reality even exist? And if reality did not exist, then who is to say that you are hearing this? And who is to say what you are hearing is what is said? Who is to say that what you are hearing is not simply your minds concept of what is said? Who is to say that what is heard is not beyond your comprehension and your mind did not simply put it in a form that you could understand to hear? And who is to say that you did not simply concoct the entirity of this? That this is not some manifestation of a thought with inside your mind in a form in which you could understand because it is beyond your comprehension? Or, perhaps, this is simply a dream? And if it is a dream, isn't that but what all of reality is? And if reality is but a dream, what is the difference between the waking and the sleeping? And if there is no difference then what defines them? And if they are undefined, how does one know which is which? Perhaps there is none, perhaps they are one and the same? Perhaps this is simply the rambling of an insane man? Or pehaps this is the logic of a sane man being given to the insane?

Or maybe there is no sanity or insanity? For is not insanity but the lack of ability to comprehend reality? And if there is no difference between reality and fantasy, then if one coprehends fantasy would they not comprehend reality? And if that is so, then could anyone truly be insane? Or maybe there is simply no sanity? Or maybe, just maybe, this is a riddle? And if it is a riddle, then perhaps, maybe just perhaps, it is a riddle with no answer?

~The moment at the end of his rambling then would he turn to God with but a hint of a smile before speaking once more.~

Loki: And whilst that is sorted and answered as one sees fit then shall you and I play a game? And in this game shall I play impeded but with no hands and one eye so that the game is duly swayed in your favor? Of course, shall it be my break then and the game can beging? But therein, a game is not fun without a wager so then, possessing at the moment that which is the sum of your power that if then I win the challenge will be mine to do with as I will, but if you win shall be free to you and I will watch in accordance and let none possess but you along with, in return, offer you one favor, free of fault or scheme by my own hands. A prized deal that one such as yourself should be more then willing to offer.

Edit: ~A nod from the transcended power would afford Loki a smile to which he would place his hands behind his back and close his right eye, bending down to pick the cue with his teeth but therein he would pause and whisper~

Loki: This game is mine and I have won. May then are wages be settled and leave me to my prize.

~Righting himself would Loki rise and return to the bar. Wondering if any would ask how he had won the game without playing.~

((Couldn't resist the urge to return to portraying Loki. Hope no one minds the interjection.))

Rest in peace Jhahannam. Didn't know you so shame.

Rest in peace Jhahannam. Didn't know you so shame.

You killed him.

Good riddance I say, a parasite, a plague, a pestilence preying on impressionable minds, viciously visibly symbolised by squatting in Straughn's vacuous brain, a disturbance in the force - that was no moon, it was a space station.

Mya-heeee! Mya-hooooo! Mya-haaaaaay! Mya-haaahaaaa!

TEH LULZ!!!:D

You killed him.

Good riddance I say, a parasite, a plague, a pestilence preying on impressionable minds, viciously visibly symbolised by squatting in Straughn's vacuous brain, a disturbance in the force - that was no moon, it was a space station.

Damn, I knew I should have laced that post with less arsnic.

In a sarcastic tone, God yells, "Watch THIS shot!" and hurls the cue-ball at Loki's head. Loki ducks mischievously, and the ball plonks a harmless customer, a Jolt Administrator who had stopped by for a beer, and knocks him cold.

Time stands still in the pool hall for four hours (but, how could they tell?)

squatting in Straughn's vacuous ___-____, a disturbance in the force - that was no moon, it was a space station.Something else goes in there.
Postpartum FTL!
*sobs*

Ah ha ha ha, your ordinariness is so... banal, I laugh at it.

You speak to someone who lost his phone one night, was too embarrassed to tell friends he'd lost his phone.... again, woke up early to head to the phone company to get his number back and stopped to buy a phone on the way.

Get this, he then placed that phone, still in its packaging, on the counter to fill out the forms to get his number back and then went to the booth to receive a replacement SIM card only to realise on receipt that he'd left his phone on the counter and, on turning around, realised it had been stolen already.

I have the world record for phone stolen speed - no one comes close to my incompetency.

The point remains, we're all pretty amazing but hell, we know that, no point worrying whether other people recognise that because it's far more interesting to spend time discovering how those people are amazing in their own way and laugh at them instead because lord knows people are laughing at us.

Heh :D
Token worship for ya, mon capitan.

Something else goes in there.
Postpartum FTL!
*sobs*

...vacuous, now vacant brain - yes, it would have worked.

...and for clarification, vacuous merely alluded to the space, space taken advantage of by Jhananarama, rather than to mean empty-headed.

:)

They say when a relationship is over, the emotional pain is the parting itself, that we adapt to accommodate another, our very brain structure changes and the fact that it must, once again, change, causes the pain.

Time will heal, perhaps another will come along.

I will miss you most of all, scarecrow.
You're making me soggy.

...vacuous, now vacant brain - yes, it would have worked.
Erm, you might take note of the hyphen. *points*

...and for clarification, vacuous merely alluded to the space, space taken advantage of by Jhananarama, rather than to mean empty-headed. Like that 85% i've been obsessing about ever since physics class?

Time will heal, perhaps another will come along.It's twice now, and the server has been considerably dissonant in hosting me of late. *grits teeth*

I'm too depressed to read this whole thread. It's like 12 pages of Jhahannam breaking up with us.

*goes off to cry in peace without Socrates' obnoxious metaphors*

He's said he remained as long as this thread did. It STILL going!!!

He's said he remained as long as this thread did. It STILL going!!!
God: "Every time you let this thread fall down to the second page, I kill a kitten. THINK OF THE KITTENS!"

Loki: "Feh! I never liked kittens anyway."

Kali: "I do, especially in mint sauce."

Rest in peace Jhahannam. Didn't know you so shame.

Oh, sorry, I thought the thread had died out, so I wasn't checking. Since the thread is still going, I'm not (NSG) dead, yet, I guess.

Don't worry about not knowing me if. Just eat a fried Snicker's Bar, its the same thing.

You're making me soggy.

Straughn, stays crispy in philosophy!

He's said he remained as long as this thread did. It STILL going!!!

Yes, you've kept the (NSG) respirators going another day!

Hey, watch the plug!

I am so confused.

I'm too depressed to read this whole thread. It's like 12 pages of Jhahannam breaking up with us.

*goes off to cry in peace without Socrates' obnoxious metaphors*

Don't worry, if we break up, I'll give you your Sex Pistols CD back...

I am so confused.

This thread is the very beating of my tired heart, and when it dies, I sink to (NSG) death.

You can play dialogue for God, Socrates, or anybody, but when the thread is dead by NSG rules, I die with it....

God: "Every time you let this thread fall down to the second page, I kill a kitten. THINK OF THE KITTENS!"

Crowd: "God, PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME!"

This thread is the very beating of my tired heart, and when it dies, I sink to (NSG) death.

You can play dialogue for God, Socrates, or anybody, but when the thread is dead by NSG rules, I die with it....

True! - nervous - very, very dreadfully nervous I had been and am; but why will you say that I am mad?

Rose: I love you, Jack.
Jack: Don't you do that, don't say your good-byes.
Rose: I'm so cold.
Jack: Listen, Rose. You're gonna get out of here, you're gonna go on and make lots of babies, and you're gonna watch them grow. You're gonna die an old... an old lady warm in her bed, but not here, not this night. Not like this, do you understand me?
Rose: I can't feel my body.
Jack: Winning that ticket, Rose, was the best thing that ever happened to me... it brought me to you. And I'm thankful for that, Rose. I'm thankful. You must do me this honor, Rose. Promise me you'll survive. That you won't give up, no matter what happens, no matter how hopeless. Promise me now, Rose, and never let go of that promise.
Rose: I promise.
Jack: Never let go.
Rose: I'll never let go. I'll never let go, Jack.

Rose: I love you, Jack.
Jack: Don't you do that, don't say your good-byes.
Rose: I'm so cold.
Jack: Listen, Rose. You're gonna get out of here, you're gonna go on and make lots of babies, and you're gonna watch them grow. You're gonna die an old... an old lady warm in her bed, but not here, not this night. Not like this, do you understand me?
Rose: I can't feel my body.
Jack: Winning that ticket, Rose, was the best thing that ever happened to me... it brought me to you. And I'm thankful for that, Rose. I'm thankful. You must do me this honor, Rose. Promise me you'll survive. That you won't give up, no matter what happens, no matter how hopeless. Promise me now, Rose, and never let go of that promise.
Rose: I promise.
Jack: Never let go.
Rose: I'll never let go. I'll never let go, Jack.

Jack: Great...uh, just so you know...I might have herpes.
Rose: .....what?
Jack: Herpes. And not just the mouth kind.
Rose: What do you mean might? MIGHT? Do you have it or not?
Jack: Look, Ireland is a poor country, they won't let us use condoms...
Rose: Now you're blaming the church? You vile, wretched, blackguard.
Jack: Rose, don't be a **** about this, these are our last moments together.

Rose: Okay, well if we're being truthful and all, I was lying when I said I came, I mean, it's pretty uncomfortable in that car and something was sticking in my back so my concentration wandered
Jack: What the fuck do I care, I had a great time

Socrates: Isn't anybody thinking about the KITTENS?
Is there, indeed, an idea of kitten-ness, separable from a combination of the ideas of youth and felinity? Could one be concerned for kittens, even though bereft of any love for cats, and also unconcerned about puppies or babies, yea, even willing to throw a puppy over the cliff?

It's like 12 pages of Jhahannam breaking up with us.
As is any time i try focusing on sexuality themes with the wife. *grrr*

True! - nervous - very, very dreadfully nervous I had been and am; but why will you say that I am mad?

Quoth Jocabia, Roger Moore.

Socrates: Isn't anybody thinking about the KITTENS?
Is there, indeed, an idea of kitten-ness, separable from a combination of the ideas of youth and felinity? Could one be concerned for kittens, even though bereft of any love for cats, and also unconcerned about puppies or babies, yea, even willing to throw a puppy over the cliff?

I once tried to engage in Socratic dialogue with a cat...yet it responded to query only with gaze, and while I searched in vain to penetrate that enigmatic pair of eyes to find what profound but disdainfully held secret might have made worthy the worship of those Egyptians, the cat's look said only, to me, "human, go fuck yourself".

As is any time i try focusing on sexuality themes with the wife. *grrr*

Focusing on sexuality themes? Christ, what are you, married to a therapist?

Brad Pitt from Legends of the Fall: "I recommend fucking."

Go make ye more babies, Jesus said to.

When cats fuck, are they thinking about the kittens?

When cats fuck, are they thinking about the kittens?

I worry about anything that screws whilst thinking of the young of their species...

I worry about anything that screws whilst thinking of the young of their species...

Catholic priests?

Focusing on sexuality themes? Christ, what are you, married to a therapist?Seriously, i can never know if i'm subconsciously sifting you for advice in the process. I don't even know if these are my kids or yours. Or ours.

Brad Pitt from Legends of the Fall: "I recommend fucking."Never saw it, but i *did* see his method in Kalifornia.

Go make ye more babies, Jesus said to.No. More. Room. Although if Jesus wants 'em so much, i'll leave a deposit or two in Jesus to do whatever with.

Quoth Jocabia, Roger Moore.Ol' Yellow Eyes Is Back
There is more of gravy than the grave about him.

Seriously, i can never know if i'm subconsciously sifting you for advice in the process. I don't even know if these are my kids or yours. Or ours.
Never saw it, but i *did* see his method in Kalifornia.
No. More. Room. Although if Jesus wants 'em so much, i'll leave a deposit or two in Jesus to do whatever with.

The kids are yours. Since I only have influence over a select subset of your neural tissue (and even that is eroding quickly), I cannot engage in meiosis to create gametes.

This thread has lasted longer than I thought, but it eventually will die...I'm thinking to make a good exit, I'm going to buy a Harley Springer Cross Bones and head off into the sunrise...(I would've done the sunset, but west of here is California, and I promised myself a long time ago that I wouldn't die in California...)

Heh, next time somebody tells Straughn to give his heart to Jesus, he can say, I already gave at the gonads...

~Socrates still pondering the question of Loki would wonder towards and offer a query~

Socrates:How is it that you might have won this game without playing then?

Loki: It's simple really. God is the creator. And as he has mentioned, he is all things. And being all things then he must be me. So that if he were to be the victor today, would I not, as he is me, be just as much the victor? Of course, I suppose one shall ask how it is that, if he were me then should I not be the victor would he not be the victor therein?

Nay, I say, for while he is me, he is all things and in that is where the stretch becomes. For though he is me, I am not him. He is me and beyond but still me. I cannot lose to him, but he is more then capable than losing to me. So in that right and honest statement I say I am the victor. But if you were to say that if he were me then I must in turn be him then wouldn't this power be mine by right anyway?

For as it is the power of God you have so kindly reminded that in order for God to be me, I must be him and therefore, as God is this not my power?

~As he debates this, he gives the power of God to the kittens of the world and waits to see the resultant backlash.~

The kids are yours. Since I only have influence over a select subset of your neural tissue (and even that is eroding quickly), I cannot engage in meiosis to create gametes.

This thread has lasted longer than I thought, but it eventually will die...I'm thinking to make a good exit, I'm going to buy a Harley Springer Cross Bones and head off into the sunrise...(I would've done the sunset, but west of here is California, and I promised myself a long time ago that I wouldn't die in California...)

Heh, next time somebody tells Straughn to give his heart to Jesus, he can say, I already gave at the gonads...

*miotes*

(Did you notice my sig?)

http://www.writingfoundations.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/getfuzzy20080217.jpg


I'm not entirely sure why I felt that was appropriate for this line of discussion, but I do. *nod*

http://www.writingfoundations.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/getfuzzy20080217.jpg


I'm not entirely sure why I felt that was appropriate for this line of discussion, but I do. *nod*

You speak monkey dutch!

*miotes*

(Did you notice my sig?)

That I did, veddy veddy nize!

~Defribulates Jhah~

~Defribulates Jhah~

Huh---uh----wha---what happened?

Is that an omnipotent kitten, transmuting crackers into balls of string and dead bugs?

Huh---uh----wha---what happened?

Is that an omnipotent kitten, transmuting crackers into balls of string and dead bugs?

Actually he's transmuting it into kitty litter and fish.

In the great words of myself: There are some things men know with absolute certainty, even when they are proven wrong. We tend to call this religion.

Actually he's transmuting it into kitty litter and fish.
And then, eating the fish and internally converting it into an appropriate fill for the kitty litter. Which we also tend to call religion.

And then, eating the fish and internally converting it into an appropriate fill for the kitty litter. Which we also tend to call religion.

Heehee...omnipotent cats, and the still just want fish...how zen...

Heehee...omnipotent cats, and the still just want fish...how zen...

Quoth Socrates, "Is, then, an omnipotent being, who is capable of doing anything he desires, also capable of choosing what it is that he desires?"

the cat's look said only, to me, "human, go fuck yourself".
It rarely says otherwise. That's cats for ya.

I once tried to engage in Socratic dialogue with a cat...yet it responded to query only with gaze, and while I searched in vain to penetrate that enigmatic pair of eyes to find what profound but disdainfully held secret might have made worthy the worship of those Egyptians, the cat's look said only, to me, "human, go fuck yourself".

You sure the look wasn't more along the lines of:

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/funny-pictures-lolcatus-borg.jpg