NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7420907.stm
Australia Muslim school rejected

Authorities in an Australian town have rejected proposals to allow an Islamic school to be built there.

Councillors for Camden, a small town on the outskirts of Sydney, unanimously voted against the proposed school for 1200 pupils.

The councillors said they based their decision solely on planning grounds, citing an internal report about its environmental impact.

The proposed development had met with fierce local opposition.

Camden's authorities received some 3,200 submissions from the public about the school and only 100 in favour.

The BBC's Nick Bryant in Sydney says Camden does not have a large Muslim population so most of the pupils for the proposed school would have had to be brought in by bus from Sydney, an hour's drive away.



Residents' views

The issue prompted a strong response from Camden locals.

"They've got terrorists amongst them, OK? We can't say they haven't - they have," said one resident.

"We're quite happy to integrate, we happily integrate with Italians, Greeks, English, Scottish - this town has every nationality. Muslims do not fit in this town - we are Aussies, OK?"

A variety of local residents' views were aired at a public meeting late last year and attended by over 1,000 people.

Some speakers focused solely on the environmental impact of locating an urban-scale school in such a bucolic setting.

One speaker implored the crowd to stick to planning issues, and not let the campaign be contaminated by racism or xenophobia.

Andrew Wynnet of the Camden/Macarthur Residents' Group told the BBC's Nick Bryant about local concerns for the long-term demographic impact of such a development.

"The character of the town will change," he said.

The Quranic Society, the organisation behind the proposal, has kept a low public profile throughout the process.

Its position has been that Australian parents have the right to educate Australian children wherever they wish, regardless of race or religion.

The organisation was not represented at the meeting, but it can appeal against this decision in the courts.

An internal Camden council report had earlier recommended against construction, mainly citing traffic concerns.

You know, I think this was admittedly quite debatable, if only because I think it serves cultural assimilation and general getting along better if everyone attends the same schools, but the outright bigotry of the statements in the article was completely uncalled for, and certainly unacceptable.

It's par for the course for Australia, as we know, but it's still unacceptable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7420907.stm


You know, I think this was admittedly quite debatable, if only because I think it serves cultural assimilation and general getting along better if everyone attends the same schools, but the outright bigotry of the statements in the article was completely uncalled for, and certainly unacceptable.

It's par for the course for Australia, as we know, but it's still unacceptable.

I saw this on the BBC last night. I sat and thought about this for a bit and realized this is no different then the fuss that would ensue in Saudi Arabia or Iran over a similar venture. Does it make it right? Not in my book either way. However it just goes to show people will protect what they view as their way of life. Some do it through politics others do it through force.

Funny, really. Back in the day, no one would bat an eye at the idea of living with Muslims in the neighborhood. Probably because all they knew about that area of the world they learned from watching Aladdin. :D Actually, at times, people were probably quite happy when it happened, since they thought they could get to learn to ride magic carpets. :p

Ah, how things have changed.

Bet they don't bat an eye at a Catholic school.

Bigots.

This same reaction to "integrating" is probably mirrored in the Middle East, but some of the Muslim people have no choice in where they live. Most of their homelands are in turmoil right now, and a lot of Palestinians are being pulled out of their homes. This article is sickening.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7420907.stm


You know, I think this was admittedly quite debatable, if only because I think it serves cultural assimilation and general getting along better if everyone attends the same schools, but the outright bigotry of the statements in the article was completely uncalled for, and certainly unacceptable.

It's par for the course for Australia, as we know, but it's still unacceptable.

Gosh bigoted words from some Aussies. Meh so what else is new.

Bloody good show Australia!

bloodly hell you lot are behind in the news

as my well traveled Asian friend said.
"Australian are the most racist white people left."

though to be fair she also thinks non white countries tend to be even more racist then anything the Europeans have left.

Not all of us are racist hicks like those quoted in the article, for the record.

Accepted racism is a huge issue here in Australia. I would remind people, though, that the construction of evangelical schools drew large-scale criticism, too.

Bloody good show Australia!

Somebody standing up to the evil paedophile cult! :mp5:

Wait, at what point did we become the racist black sheep of the Western world? Doesn't the likes of this happen in the USA as well?

Wait, at what point did we become the racist black sheep of the Western world? Doesn't the likes of this happen in the USA as well?

Howard, 11 years of Howard

Sorry, resisting Islam =! Racism.

Howard, 11 years of Howard

old news much like this

Sorry, resisting Islam =! Racism.Well, yeah, but some of the people quoted in the article most certainly were doing it for racist reasons.

Well, yeah, but some of the people quoted in the article most certainly were doing it for racist reasons.
indeed some were

"Sorry, resisting Islam =! Racism."

1)Firstly, no it is not. Islam is not a race, it is misleading to pretend otherwise.

2)Secondly, I personally would not allow ANY faith-based schools. It is a form of segregation and this is one of the things that has stopped the Islamic communtiy from integrating with the West. That is IF it can integrate, personally I am not sure if the cultures are compatible.

3)Thirdly, all faith-schools are breeding grounds for extremists. Should children not get the same education as each other, to ensure they have equal opportunities in life?

4)Finally, faith-schools' only purpose is to INDOCTRINATE innocent young children who do not no better.

"Sorry, resisting Islam =! Racism."

-Firstly, no it is not. Islam is not a race, it is misleading to pretend otherwise.

-Secondly, I personally would not allow ANY faith-based schools. It is a form of segregation and this is one of the things that has stopped the Islamic communtiy from integrating with the West. Also, all faith-schools are breeding grounds for extremists. Should children not get the same education as each other, to ensure equal opportunities.

-Thirdly, faith-schools just INDOCTRINATE innocent young children who do not no better.

You do realise =! represents not equal to, right?

Meh. Really couldn't care less.

You do realise =! represents not equal to, right?

I was quoting someone. I am aware "!" does not mean equal to. Did you not read the message? It is obvious I did not right that quote if you had only read my points!

Well, yeah, but some of the people quoted in the article most certainly were doing it for racist reasons.

I suppose that's true.

I was quoting someone. I am aware "!" does not mean equal to. Did you not read the message? It is obvious I did not right that quote if you had only read my points!

"Sorry, resisting Islam =! Racism."

1)Firstly, no it is not. Islam is not a race, it is misleading to pretend otherwise.

This looks to me like you're arguing that the quoted sentence is wrong as Islam is not a race. Incidentally, I'm also not seeing how the quote is contradictory to your points, regardless of whether =! means equal to or not equal to.

Well, yeah, but some of the people quoted in the article most certainly were doing it for racist reasons.

Just as others were not, and simply throwing the term "racist" at them not only does them poor justice, but also stifles proper discussion of policy and ideology. It's also appallingly bad form in a discussion; second only to the ubiquitious "Nazi card".

"They've got terrorists amongst them, OK? We can't say they haven't - they have," said one resident.

"We're quite happy to integrate, we happily integrate with Italians, Greeks, English, Scottish - this town has every nationality. Muslims do not fit in this town - we are Aussies, OK?"

Heh, I didn't realise the Australians were so... like us Brits. :p

Sorry, resisting Islam =! Racism.

I'm sorry, is there an Islamic expansion to "resist", per se?

"Sorry, resisting Islam =! Racism."

1)Firstly, no it is not. Islam is not a race, it is misleading to pretend otherwise.

2)Secondly, I personally would not allow ANY faith-based schools. It is a form of segregation and this is one of the things that has stopped the Islamic communtiy from integrating with the West. That is IF it can integrate, personally I am not sure if the cultures are compatible.

3)Thirdly, all faith-schools are breeding grounds for extremists. Should children not get the same education as each other, to ensure they have equal opportunities in life?

4)Finally, faith-schools' only purpose is to INDOCTRINATE innocent young children who do not no better.

Thankyou. End thread.
I believe this sums up the situation better than anything else. Religion should not be combined with anything (especially politics, education or health). ANY RELIGION!

As for the racist Australia comments, well, we do have a bad history of racial intolerance, I would like to think that the people - if not the government - are attempting to make ammends.

I think Australias' problem with islam however is not with the people, but rather the terrorists and the media. The terrorists for claiming that their actions were religiously backed and the media for using islam as a selling point and a describer of anyone considered affiliated with terrorism.

Whilst not on the Islam Vs Australia topic, It is still racism Vs Australia:
Rotovias comment: Mate, if you think Howard is to blame you have alot of learning to do. What has Rudd done for racial affairs? Absolutely nothing except allow the Aborigines to go and sue the taxpayer. If he really wanted to make a difference, he would have boycotted the tax changes, ditched the school computer plan and put the money into rural health. Instead, he aims for the popular vote rather than what is best for the people. (And people in Aus are stupid enough to fall for it apparently)
Kevin 07, Recession 08...

It's not racist of course, but in this case at least those comments are clearly and unambiguously bigoted.

Wait, at what point did we become the racist black sheep of the Western world? Doesn't the likes of this happen in the USA as well?

We have lots of Islamic schools. some of them even get goverment funds for the non religious stuff they teach.

Also black sheep status normally requires discrimination based in law last one of those would have been South Africa.

then again My friend is Asian, and I hear you have a large number of Immigrants from Asia, It is very possible that here in the US Mexicans or blacks are treated worse, just she didn't experience that being Asian which we Americans generally consider the smarter then whites minority.

My friend is not even a sociology major I didn't mean to make it sound like i was saying you all were worse then us. Just listing from her experiences.

Just as others were not, and simply throwing the term "racist" at them not only does them poor justice, but also stifles proper discussion of policy and ideology. It's also appallingly bad form in a discussion; second only to the ubiquitious "Nazi card".
So does throwing the "you threw the Nazi card" card. I'm opposed to the school, mainly because I don't think bussing kids for an hour from Sydney is a good idea.

Thankyou. End thread.

that be nice seeing this happen early in the year

So does throwing the "you threw the Nazi card" card. I'm opposed to the school, mainly because I don't think bussing kids for an hour from Sydney is a good idea.

I went to school with people who travelled for an hour. It's contingent upon quite how good the school actually is in comparison to what is available locally.

I went to school with people who travelled for an hour. It's contingent upon quite how good the school actually is in comparison to what is available locally.Not the point. Very few people in Camden are interested in sending their children to the proposed school. Virtually the entire student body would need to be bussed in from Sydney. Why not build closer to Sydney?

"Sorry, resisting Islam =! Racism."

1)Firstly, no it is not. Islam is not a race, it is misleading to pretend otherwise.



religousist doesn't roll off the tongue as well as racist.

and expanded versions of the term often do include religious discrimination.

Not the point. Very few people in Camden are interested in sending their children to the proposed school. Virtually the entire student body would need to be bussed in from Sydney. Why not build closer to Sydney?

Sounds reasonable.

"Aussie hicks bottom of the gene pool shocker"

Bet they don't bat an eye at a Catholic school.

Bigots.

Do Catholics worldwide advocate holy war these days? No! Have some common sense!

Do Catholics worldwide advocate holy war these days? No! Have some common sense!
Do Australian muslims?

Do Catholics worldwide advocate holy war these days? No! Have some common sense!

Well, actually... :p

But seriously, do Muslims? If you say yes, then I will need some proof.

Do Catholics worldwide advocate holy war these days? No! Have some common sense!

Bwahahah heeh hahah *cough* have some, ohhhlord, hehahaha have some common sense he says!:D

So we are all in favor of labeling Australia as racist and putting their economy under an embargo until which time as they send troops to help in Iraq to make right their issues with the Muslims.

Do Australian muslims?

Some, probably.

So we are all in favor of labeling Australia as racist and putting their economy under an embargo until which time as they send troops to help in Iraq to make right their issues with the Muslims.
I know you're a bit of a troll, but sending troops to Iraq won't help anyone regarding issues with islamic extremism at home. Far from it.

Some, probably.

I like the probably part, very subtle touch there.

I like the probably part, very subtle touch there.

Excuse me?

I know you're a bit of a troll, but sending troops to Iraq won't help anyone regarding issues with islamic extremism at home. Far from it.

It is more about the benefit the US gets. by taking advantage of this one isolated incident.

I like the probably part, very subtle touch there.
There'll be some present, after all there was the fairly high-profile case of one of the top Imams in Australia saying that scantily-clad women basically brought rape upon themselves. I'm sure that kind of chap has some "ultra-orthodox" mates.

Bet they don't bat an eye at a Catholic school.A Catholic school is not at all like an Islamic school. "Catholic school" only means it is run by an institution affiliated or part of the Catholic Church, while "Islamic school" means it is place of brain washing.

A Catholic school is not at all like an Islamic school. "Catholic school" only means it is run by an institution affiliated or part of the Catholic Church, while "Islamic school" means it is place of brain washing.
:rolleyes:

Not the point. Very few people in Camden are interested in sending their children to the proposed school. Virtually the entire student body would need to be bussed in from Sydney. Why not build closer to Sydney?

Land prices are very expensive. The Muslim community in Australia is comparatively poor.

We have lots of Islamic schools. some of them even get goverment funds for the non religious stuff they teach...

We have lots of Islamic schools in Oz, also. Like all private schools they receive funding from the Federal Government. Under a formula adopted by the Howard Liberal Government and continued by the Rudd Labor Government private schools receive funding based on the socio-economic status of the students. As a result Islamic schools receive significant funding.

They also receive funding from the state governments who determine the curriculum. For example, in Victoria evolution is an examinable topic for university entry and thus is required to be taught in the relevant subjects, even in Islamic and Christian fundamentalist schools. How they deal with that is their business, I guess.

A Catholic school is not at all like an Islamic school. "Catholic school" only means it is run by an institution affiliated or part of the Catholic Church, while "Islamic school" means it is place of brain washing.

I had a Catholic education. Believe me, they brainwash.

BTW, UB, I think your signature has taken a more vulgar turn of late, and I'm an athiest.

Land prices are very expensive. The Muslim community in Australia is comparatively poor.Not really a good enough reason, though.

Not really a good enough reason, though.

So, why do you think they wanted to build a school in such a seemingly inconvenient location?

I had a Catholic education. Believe me, they brainwash.

Heh and yet you are an atheist?

Heh and yet you are an atheist?

I was a good Catholic lad. You know, altar boy and so on.

Puberty did me in.

I was a good Catholic lad. You know, altar boy and so on.

Puberty did me in.

So the brainwashing didn't work then. Well I guess if you can break it so can anybody huh!

So, why do you think they wanted to build a school in such a seemingly inconvenient location?
Strategic planning, ignorance of demographics, willful neglect of how fun hour long busrides are for children, lower land prices, or a combination of all of these.

Sorry, resisting Islam =! Racism.


How is resisting a religion racism?

though to be fair she also thinks non white countries tend to be even more racist then anything the Europeans have left.
Countries with different societal structures than Europeans are generally uber racists.

I had a Catholic education. Believe me, they brainwash.

Hah! I went into a Catholic middle school a freakishly religious kid and came out an atheist.

woooo calm down
alot of people in this article are going out saying australians are racist yet theyre saying racist stuff themselves :mad:

australia is an excellent country
howard was great aswell

there are only a couple of quotes in that list out of 3000 submissions
I'm sure there would be a few people in any country who'd have the same reaction
yes there are racist idiots here
but thats the same everywhere
its a great country :)

Countries with different societal structures than Europeans are generally uber racists.

yeah most of Asia comes to mind. though in Africa they tend to think its okay to take land from any non African that holds it.

woooo calm down
alot of people in this article are going out saying australians are racist yet theyre saying racist stuff themselves :mad:

australia is an excellent country
howard was great aswell

there are only a couple of quotes in that list out of 3000 submissions
I'm sure there would be a few people in any country who'd have the same reaction
yes there are racist idiots here
but thats the same everywhere
its a great country :)

It's called common sense, not racism. And yes, they are in all countries, in most of them called THE MAJORITY.

yeah most of Asia comes to mind. though in Africa they tend to think its okay to take land from any non African that holds it.

Yes, because all Africans are Robert Mugabe.

:rolleyes:

Yes, because all Africans are Robert Mugabe.

:rolleyes:

they all look alike to me.

they all look alike to me.

Wow. Just... wow.

I had a Catholic education. Believe me, they brainwash.


So did I actually, and the only brain washing that happens is in the RE classroom, and yet it is so whimsical and half hearted by the teachers it actually makes you think less of Catholicism not more.

I don't see the problem, except for the random bouts of nasty islamophobia of course.

Wow. Just... wow.

lol. i was kidding mostly

Excuse me?

You're excused.

So did I actually, and the only brain washing that happens is in the RE classroom, and yet it is so whimsical and half hearted by the teachers it actually makes you think less of Catholicism not more.

But why are we even bringing up Catholic schools in this thread? Do Catholics worldwide advocate holy war these days? NO! So leave Catholics alone.

But why are we even bringing up Catholic schools in this thread? Do Catholics worldwide advocate holy war these days? NO! So leave Catholics alone.

Is there an echo in here? Is there an echo in here?Is there an echo in here?

Sorry, resisting Islam =! Racism.
Too right.

At what point did this become racist, its not racist its anti Islamic and judging by events around the world involving the majority of terrorists being Islamic I don't see a problem with the views expressed above.

Too right.

At what point did this become racist, its not racist its anti Islamic and judging by events around the world involving the majority of terrorists being Islamic I don't see a problem with the views expressed above.

Because it's so not prejudiced to generalize and blame an entire religion for a dangerous minority. Of course not. You are correct, sir!

Too right.

At what point did this become racist, its not racist its anti Islamic and judging by events around the world involving the majority of terrorists being Islamic I don't see a problem with the views expressed above.

I'd ask if you'd bother to think this through and realize that by grouping together all Muslims with the extremists and abusing them as such would simply push more and more moderate Muslims to the extremists, but I suspect that would be a pointless question.

as my well traveled Asian friend said.
"Australian are the most racist white people left."

though to be fair she also thinks non white countries tend to be even more racist then anything the Europeans have left.

Yes, that's right, we are the white trash of Asia.

I hate my country.

Isn't this all an enviornmental and zoning problem... not a racial one?

i think all religious denomination schools should be banned by all countrys, they promote discrimination, are in conflict with modern educational standards and indoctrinate young people, they are an affront to democracy. Speration of all religions and the state is neccesary.

I'd ask if you'd bother to think this through and realize that by grouping together all Muslims with the extremists and abusing them as such would simply push more and more moderate Muslims to the extremists, but I suspect that would be a pointless question.

It's not politically correct for the Aussies to demonize and persecute aborigines so they turn to the brand new guilt-free alternative: Muslims.

But why are we even bringing up Catholic schools in this thread? Do Catholics worldwide advocate holy war these days? NO! So leave Catholics alone.

Oh, and all islamic people advocate worldwide holy war of course. Let's all blame the muslims for everything!

People need a history lesson... All religions have been at each others throats since some bright young cro-magnon thought up the brilliant Idea "Gee, I know! We can't explain then phenomena so I will say that it was as the result of some devine intervention. Then demand that people give me their food/tools/daughters or else they will be smitten." However, then the Jones's in the cave next door came up with an even better idea that their son was the reincarnation of the devine one and demand all of the food/tools/daughters.

And thus the holy war between the Christians and the Jews was started. And we are still dealing with the fall out... Add in half a dozen highly influential religions (islam, buddhist, hindu) and the attempts of conversion and we end up with all the shit stuck on the fan.


=========

On a topic other than my "before I have had my morning coffee ramblings" I think that the islamic people in Australia really have to take initiative so they stop been seen as "Terrorists" by the uneducated idiots out there. I think the number of times I have seen an islamic person hanging out with anyone who is non-islamic in a social situation can be counted on a single hand. They somehow find each other and then refuse to socialise and mingle with anyone except their fellow islams.
Of course, there are some exceptions, and I have met some islamic people that I would regard as good friends.

This is the first time I have ever complimented any form of christainism: Atleast they are prepared to exist with people who are not of their faith. They are also more willing to accept an argument against their faith without calling out the Racist/religionist/discrimination card.

I'm sorry, is there an Islamic expansion to "resist", per se?

kawem or mokawama as resistance if you are in fact looking for the term in Arabic.

It's not politically correct for the Aussies to demonize and persecute aborigines so they turn to the brand new guilt-free alternative: Muslims.

Seems they are following a common human trait. That is finding a demon to blame things on. All people do this in some fashion or another. I just brush this off as the bogeyman syndrome much like you seem to have.

Yes, that's right, we are the white trash of Asia.

I hate my country.

Nah I think the Koreans have the corner on the market for the perceived "trash" of Asia. Not stereotyping because I think this but heard this more than once while either in china or talking with Japanese about Asian relations.

as my well traveled Asian friend said.
"Australian are the most racist white people left."

though to be fair she also thinks non white countries tend to be even more racist then anything the Europeans have left.

We aren't racist we're Australian

*Ten points for anyone who gets that reference*

As for your well travelled Asian friend seems like the pot is calling the kettle black, and I am sure that your friend may not be racist but as your friend generalised than so to will I. I will give your friend credit, as your friend does acknowledge that many Asians are just as racist if not more.

Bet they don't bat an eye at a Catholic school.

Bigots.

Well actually they did.

Funny, really. Back in the day, no one would bat an eye at the idea of living with Muslims in the neighborhood. Probably because all they knew about that area of the world they learned from watching Aladdin. :D Actually, at times, people were probably quite happy when it happened, since they thought they could get to learn to ride magic carpets. :p

Ah, how things have changed.

That was probably before they saw what happened in other suburbs around Sydney where large groups of Muslims moved to, and saw the drug selling increase, crime increasing, police stations being shot up because their leader was arrested, 12 year old girls being gang raped because she wasn't fully covered and so deserved it.

And people who haven't had to put up with it wonder why they don't want them around.

old news much like this

Also totally incorrect.

Yes, that's right, we are the white trash of Asia.

I hate my country.

No we are the white trash of Australia not Asia.

They also receive funding from the state governments who determine the curriculum. For example, in Victoria evolution is an examinable topic for university entry and thus is required to be taught in the relevant subjects, even in Islamic and Christian fundamentalist schools. How they deal with that is their business, I guess.

How many Christian fundamentalist schools are there? Unless you count all schools affiliated with a church as fundamentalist, of course then you are sadly mistaken. Evolution was taught at my school and was taught well, there was no crap about how it is wrong and goes against what the Bible says or what God did etcetera. Perhaps you can tell us how your school did it.

I had a Catholic education. Believe me, they brainwash.

Originally I was going to disagree with you but then I remembered that they did attempt to brainwash me. Some example include how we should be allowing illegal immigrants into the country and locking them up was wrong, how we should treat all people equal, there are just some examples of how I was brainwashed at school (I won't go into how the same thing happens at public schools as well) there were others similar to the examples I gave.

So, why do you think they wanted to build a school in such a seemingly inconvenient location?

The muslims have had their eyes on Camden for years...

Isn't this all an enviornmental and zoning problem... not a racial one?
The issue is more one of hicks being hicks.

The issue is more one of hicks being hicks.

Says the man from North East England

Thankyou. End thread.
I believe this sums up the situation better than anything else. Religion should not be combined with anything (especially politics, education or health). ANY RELIGION!

As for the racist Australia comments, well, we do have a bad history of racial intolerance, I would like to think that the people - if not the government - are attempting to make ammends.

I think Australias' problem with islam however is not with the people, but rather the terrorists and the media. The terrorists for claiming that their actions were religiously backed and the media for using islam as a selling point and a describer of anyone considered affiliated with terrorism.

Whilst not on the Islam Vs Australia topic, It is still racism Vs Australia:
Rotovias comment: Mate, if you think Howard is to blame you have alot of learning to do. What has Rudd done for racial affairs? Absolutely nothing except allow the Aborigines to go and sue the taxpayer. If he really wanted to make a difference, he would have boycotted the tax changes, ditched the school computer plan and put the money into rural health. Instead, he aims for the popular vote rather than what is best for the people. (And people in Aus are stupid enough to fall for it apparently)
Kevin 07, Recession 08...

I am not arguing Rudd has done anything to improve race-relations, but he certainly hasn't spewed racist rhetoric to galvanise the right-wing base. I am sick of it being assumed that if one is not a Liberal, they are automatically a Labor support; I am not.

And as a matter of legal fact, Aboriginals have always held the legal ability to sue the government over the Stolen Generation, the apology does not affect this.

I am not arguing Rudd has done anything to improve race-relations, but he certainly hasn't spewed racist rhetoric to galvanise the right-wing base. I am sick of it being assumed that if one is not a Liberal, they are automatically a Labor support; I am not.

And as a matter of legal fact, Aboriginals have always held the legal ability to sue the government over the Stolen Generation, the apology does not affect this.

He does have a point Rotovia, Australia all of a sudden didn't become "racist" when Howard became Prime Minister, this has always been apart of the culture of Australia, and was first seen when the English arrived in 1788.

Oh and I am willing to bet that when you voted (assuming you are over 18) you placed Labor over Liberal. Nothing else counts unless you live in the New England Electorate

And as a matter of legal fact, Aboriginals have always held the legal ability to sue the government over the Stolen Generation, the apology does not affect this.

It is an admission of guilt of the govt, which basically means that the person making the claim has a far easier time getting a payout.

I think the stolen generation issue is terrible, and I do feel sorry for anyone affected. However, I believe that compensation should not take form of a big cheque. I think the government would achieve more spending the money they would waste (first in the legal battle and then the pay out if they lose) on infrastructure so that aborigine children can have an equal chance of success at life as any other person in Australia. Of course, the aborigines don't agree with that and would rather a massive payout which would achieve nothing in the long term.

My apologies for implying you are a labor supporter ;)

That was probably before they saw what happened in other suburbs around Sydney where large groups of Muslims moved to, and saw the drug selling increase, crime increasing, police stations being shot up because their leader was arrested, 12 year old girls being gang raped because she wasn't fully covered and so deserved it.

And people who haven't had to put up with it wonder why they don't want them around.

Criminals come in all shapes and flavors. Just because these guys happened to be supposedly of Muslim background does not make it right to generalize and say all Muslims are degenerates who are out to destroy your lives.

If I lived in America at around the 1960's, I could make a similar argument against Blacks moving into predominantly white neighborhoods, no?

I've been to dozens of places as well where people have said their Muslim neighbors were the most trustworthy people around. By your logic, Muslims would be great to have around, simply based of those individual testimonials, no?

Criminals come in all shapes and flavors. Just because these guys happened to be supposedly of Muslim background does not make it right to generalize and say all Muslims are degenerates who are out to destroy your lives.

If I lived in America at around the 1960's, I could make a similar argument against Blacks moving into predominantly white neighborhoods, no?

I've been to dozens of places as well where people have said their Muslim neighbors were the most trustworthy people around. By your logic, Muslims would be great to have around, simply based of those individual testimonials, no?

Yes it would be if those stories were being represented by the media. As I said it is the what has happened in suburbs where Muslims have moved into and those people have heard of what has happened in those suburbs, can you blame these people not wanting that to happen in their community.

Sorry, resisting Islam =! Racism.

For NS, resisting islam= hating everything good in the world.

Yes it would be if those stories were being represented by the media. As I said it is the what has happened in suburbs where Muslims have moved into and those people have heard of what has happened in those suburbs, can you blame these people not wanting that to happen in their community.

I see what you mean. Still, it doesn't make it anymore right if people generalize based on one reported event, even if simply out of ignorance...

Besides, it's not you'll see "Muslims and Christians Getting Along Fine" for a headline anytime soon.

I see what you mean. Still, it doesn't make it anymore right if people generalize based on one reported event, even if simply out of ignorance...

Besides, it's not you'll see "Muslims and Christians Getting Along Fine" for a headline anytime soon.

I'm gald and it is more than just one reported event it is years and years of this stuff which wasn't helped by September 11, not to mention all of the stuff that goes unreported which you hear down the grapevine.

Of course we won't see a headline like that because the media know that. that sort of headline won't sell news.

I'm gald and it is more than just one reported event it is years and years of this stuff which wasn't helped by September 11, not to mention all of the stuff that goes unreported which you hear down the grapevine.

Of course we won't see a headline like that because the media know that. that sort of headline won't sell news.

True, but like I said, you could find rumors and stories that swing to either end of the spectrum. But, as you said, the media loves a good sensationalist story, and the culture of fear is lucrative, so the negatives one are those that persist.

Racism in Australia has always been a problem, if you want proof just look at Pauline Hanson and all the support she received (that woman makes me sick).

Ah, intolerance and xenophobia, keeping Australia strong since 1901.

We aren't racist we're Australian

*Ten points for anyone who gets that reference*


British National Party. Thanks for the 10 points:p

Racism
in Australia has always been a problem, if you want proof just look at Pauline Hanson and all the support she received (that woman makes me sick).
Then again, look at all of the Australian's that are AGAINST her and her bigoted party. I live in Australia, and personally I was disappointed by the rejection of the Muslim school. If someone can show me the proof that the area was completely wrong for a school as reported in the news, I will accept that. But racism and ignorance reared it's ugly head, and gave all Australians a bad name with some of the responses. Not all Australians are bigoted idiots, but there are enough of them to make us look bad.

Muslims have been prejudiced against by the western world ever since some extremists attacked America. Hopefully we can all get over it eventually, and stop the judgemental idiots from shamelessly persecuting Islamic people.

British National Party. Thanks for the 10 points:p

*Dum-Dum*

I am sorry Soviestan that is incorrect. Thanks for playing

Anybody else ten points up for grabs

(I don't know if that is something they were saying, but for the life of me I can't think why the BNP would say they are Australian)

Then again, look at all of the Australian's that are AGAINST her and her bigoted party. I live in Australia, and personally I was disappointed by the rejection of the Muslim school. If someone can show me the proof that the area was completely wrong for a school as reported in the news, I will accept that. But racism and ignorance reared it's ugly head, and gave all Australians a bad name with some of the responses. Not all Australians are bigoted idiots, but there are enough of them to make us look bad.

Muslims have been prejudiced against by the western world ever since some extremists attacked America. Hopefully we can all get over it eventually, and stop the judgemental idiots from shamelessly persecuting Islamic people.

I am sure that the council could show you the proof, perhaps asking the council to show it to you would prove it, and believe it or not racism may not actually be the reason for the council rejection.

Ah, intolerance and xenophobia, keeping Australia strong since 1901.

Since before 1788 I think you would find.

I'd ask if you'd bother to think this through and realize that by grouping together all Muslims with the extremists and abusing them as such would simply push more and more moderate Muslims to the extremists, but I suspect that would be a pointless question.
My point was its not racist, its prejudiced just not by race. I feel sorry for muslims that are tarred with the terrorist brush due to the minority of fanatics.

"Sorry, resisting Islam =! Racism."

1)Firstly, no it is not. Islam is not a race, it is misleading to pretend otherwise.

2)Secondly, I personally would not allow ANY faith-based schools. It is a form of segregation and this is one of the things that has stopped the Islamic communtiy from integrating with the West. That is IF it can integrate, personally I am not sure if the cultures are compatible.

3)Thirdly, all faith-schools are breeding grounds for extremists. Should children not get the same education as each other, to ensure they have equal opportunities in life?

4)Finally, faith-schools' only purpose is to INDOCTRINATE innocent young children who do not no better.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Let's go over this one, shall we?

1. Islam is not a race: Correct. It is a religion.
2. No Faith-based schools: Bah. It's impossible to keep religion (Or lack of religion) out of schools, one way or another.
3. Faith-based schools make kids into extremists:Yes, yes, and my local church tells me to bomb teh ebil abortionists:rolleyes:. I went to a faith-based school at one point, it was hardly a breeding ground for extremists.
4. TEH EBIL FAITH-SCHOOLS IZ TEH BRAINWASHING CENTERS!!!!: No. Not at all. Not any more then their parents telling them not to steal (Note to others: I'm not saying that Faith-schools and telling kids not to steal are just as important. I'm saying it's not a brainwashing center anymore then telling your kids not to steal is brainwashing them)

He does have a point Rotovia, Australia all of a sudden didn't become "racist" when Howard became Prime Minister, this has always been apart of the culture of Australia, and was first seen when the English arrived in 1788.

Oh and I am willing to bet that when you voted (assuming you are over 18) you placed Labor over Liberal. Nothing else counts unless you live in the New England Electorate
That's a strawman argument; I never stated I believe Rudd has done anything for Aboriginal communities, and have in fact stated I believe Australia is as racist as ever.

How, and if I voted is irrelevant: for the record, I would preference a Liberal like Brendon Nelson, above Labor candidate like Julia Gillard.

*Dum-Dum*

I am sorry Soviestan that is incorrect. Thanks for playing

Anybody else ten points up for grabs

(I don't know if that is something they were saying, but for the life of me I can't think why the BNP would say they are Australian)

I think that was their slogan but insert "British" for "Australian"

It is an admission of guilt of the govt, which basically means that the person making the claim has a far easier time getting a payout.

I think the stolen generation issue is terrible, and I do feel sorry for anyone affected. However, I believe that compensation should not take form of a big cheque. I think the government would achieve more spending the money they would waste (first in the legal battle and then the pay out if they lose) on infrastructure so that aborigine children can have an equal chance of success at life as any other person in Australia. Of course, the aborigines don't agree with that and would rather a massive payout which would achieve nothing in the long term.

My apologies for implying you are a labor supporter ;)

There's a law Professor at UQ who stated "an apology for past wrongdoings of an entity is not the same as an admission of guilt, as is most certainly not an admission of liability" or something to that affect.

In truth, I'd vote for a fictitious "Progressive Party" which lives only in my head, with Brendon Nelson as Prime Minister, and Peter Costello as Treasurer... wait... hmm... how to "liberal" the "Liberal Party"...?

What we have to see here is that we are all simply afraid of the unknown. Many people are opposed to having a large Muslim population suddenly arrive in their town because they simply don't know anything about them or understand them (the extremist thing does play a part, but then every opinion that has ever existed has had some extremist element at one point or another). Some of the talk here is opposed to religious schools in general, and this I think is because many people simply don't understand the religious population, and therefore are afraid or even despise them for being different.

This kind of thing has been going on for the entire existence of humanity, such as the Romans and the "barbarians," the American settlers and the natives, blacks and whites, and now Muslims and the West.

Give it several decades, and this phobia of Muslims will cease to exist because they will have eventually integrated into western culture, and some new group of people will be the enemy of the west.

I think that was their slogan but insert "British" for "Australian"

Yeah I figured that, but still not the reference I was alluding to

That's a strawman argument; I never stated I believe Rudd has done anything for Aboriginal communities, and have in fact stated I believe Australia is as racist as ever.

How, and if I voted is irrelevant: for the record, I would preference a Liberal like Brendon Nelson, above Labor candidate like Julia Gillard.

I didn't think I had said that you did (and the quote your quoted didn't say it), I was referring to your earlier point talking about hoe Howard helped racism in Australia, and I was mealy saying that racism has been in Australia since before 1788.

The second part was in reference to the way our system works that while you may not have voted for Labor in reality which ever party out of the two main parties you preference over the other is the one you are really voting for. I am glad to hear you would preference Nelson over that psychotic Gillard.

What do you think abut Turnball?

What we have to see here is that we are all simply afraid of the unknown. Many people are opposed to having a large Muslim population suddenly arrive in their town because they simply don't know anything about them or understand them (the extremist thing does play a part, but then every opinion that has ever existed has had some extremist element at one point or another). Some of the talk here is opposed to religious schools in general, and this I think is because many people simply don't understand the religious population, and therefore are afraid or even despise them for being different.

This kind of thing has been going on for the entire existence of humanity, such as the Romans and the "barbarians," the American settlers and the natives, blacks and whites, and now Muslims and the West.

Give it several decades, and this phobia of Muslims will cease to exist because they will have eventually integrated into western culture, and some new group of people will be the enemy of the west.

Well the kids might based on every other group which has came here where the parents refuse to exist within our culture and in some cases decry it. But Islam is a very strict religion one where it might be harder for the children to accept Australian norms and culture while still remaining a muslim

I didn't think I had said that you did (and the quote your quoted didn't say it), I was referring to your earlier point talking about hoe Howard helped racism in Australia, and I was mealy saying that racism has been in Australia since before 1788.

The second part was in reference to the way our system works that while you may not have voted for Labor in reality which ever party out of the two main parties you preference over the other is the one you are really voting for. I am glad to hear you would preference Nelson over that psychotic Gillard.

What do you think abut Turnball?

That said, both Keating, Hawk, Fraiser and Whitlam would have thought some of the comments made by Howard on immigrants (particually of Asian extraction) unthinkable.

Not quite, but I can see where you're coming from. Exhasutive preferencial voting is a tad more complicated.

The problem with Turnbull is that he represents the strong-arm right-wing attitude that marked the highpoint for Howard's premiership for many people. I'd like to see party return to a more Fraiser-like platform, and I honestly think Brendon Nelson is the best chance of that happening.

That said, both Keating, Hawk, Fraiser and Whitlam would have thought some of the comments made by Howard on immigrants (particually of Asian extraction) unthinkable.

Not quite, but I can see where you're coming from. Exhasutive preferencial voting is a tad more complicated.

The problem with Turnbull is that he represents the strong-arm right-wing attitude that marked the highpoint for Howard's premiership for many people. I'd like to see party return to a more Fraiser-like platform, and I honestly think Brendon Nelson is the best chance of that happening.

What when they were in power or now? And while many people think that Howard is to blame for racism in Australia, the fact remains it has been in here for a long time, and Howard didn't have the influence to make people racists he was able to tap into peoples ideals and use them to his advantage, a strong advantage for a politician. And I doubt we will see anything against Asians at a Federal level while Rudd is in charge since he is a Sinophile

Look I know that I am simplifying the whole process in Australia, and I do know how it really works but at the past two elections I worked as a scrutineer in different electorates each time and when the votes were being counted that night the ballots were placed in two piles Liberal and Labour to see who had more and 'won' that booth, before proper counting and recording started. So yes I know how preferential voting works and what it achieves but it doesn't always work that way in practice.

Interesting thought, and I too would like to see Nelson remain over Turnball, however, thanks to the media he wont survive long maybe till the next election, which Liberal will lose regardless of who they put in unless Labor does something so atrocious like institute the draft 6 weeks prior to the election. Unfortunately Nelson will be kicked out and Turnball will come in I think the tables would be turned had Turnball won the leadership count but it was not to be. Nelson may just do a Howard and come back 8 years later and win an election, but that is at least 12 years away.