NationStates Jolt Archive

How many of you still use internet explorer? I personally just found IE to be just fine. Until I had to reformat my computer. Internet Explorer was running like crap, so I decided to switch to Mozilla Firefox. I have yet to regret the decision. What about you? Stories of how you decided to switch? What do you currently have? Discuss the glory of non-Internet Explorer browsers :p.

Mozzilla Firefox, now and allways, IMO its faster, more reliable and more stylish than IE!

Firefox.

I wanted tabbed browsing before Microsoft decided I should have it and I haven't looked back since.

I actually use both. IE8 is better for programming and seeing how the CSS or Java actually effects the page. It's horrible for size concerns and finite boundaries (like scrolling through YouTube). Then I use Firefox, for all my video and picture pleasures.

And here's another Firefox user.

IE.

Should I make the switch to FireFox?

Firefox 3 Beta 5 ... and thanks for reminding me, because I now see that Firefox 3 RC 1 is available!

Firefox 3 Release Candidate 1 (http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/all-rc.html)

Awww, no poll?

I use Firefox (http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/), as I am an avid open-source user. I use all things open source that I can, including Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/) and OpenOffice (http://www.openoffice.org/).

IE.

Should I make the switch to FireFox?
Yes. Yes you should.

Another one on the fox, IE locked up on me one day and i couldent be bothered downloading patches and registry fixes just to open an image file, ive never looked back either. Cheers to open source

Firefox. I've been using it now for two or three months. Great times.

Firefox; Safari on rare occasions, notably when FF doesn't work or messes up some aspect of my computer (i.e. I can't use the keyboard, or the trackpad is stuck in "drag" mode, or I can't copy and paste). Ok, so not so rare. :p

Safari nightly builds. I find them to be faster.

I'll use IE until it stops working, then I'll swith to FF. Until then I can't be bothered to get used to something new.

Also, because it's fun: The Acid3 Test (http://acid3.acidtests.org/)

*joins the chorus* Firefox!

I use IE on rare occasions when a website just won't work on Firefox and when I download RvB videos. Other than that, it's all Firefox.

I use Safari, Camino, Opera and Mozilla Firefox. These are the best browsers for Mac. IE is shyte.

I use Safari, Camino, Opera and Mozilla Firefox. These are the best browsers for Mac. IE is shyte.

*Laughs at Mac user*

I went and got Windows updates recently (for a different computer, mind) and am pleased to discover that MS have finally dropped that stupid requirement that you use IE to access microsoft.com.

God that was a stupid expectation. Really made them look petty ...

*Laughs at Mac user*

*fish slaps CM*

:P

Yes. Yes you should.
The internets have spoken!

It'll be on my to-do list.

*Laughs at Mac user*

*Bats ineffectually at CM's head with his old Amiga 500*

I use Opera for most things. IE for email, purely because it's what MSN messenger opens, and Firefox if I'm in a hurry or want to see stuff on veoh.

Mozilla wins all.

*fish slaps CM*

:P
*Cries. Unplugs Mac. Laughs at mac user again. Waves normal computer in pride.*
*Bats ineffectually at CM's head with his old Amiga 500*
*Takes Amiga 500. Studies, creates emulator. Gives it back*
The internets have spoken!

It'll be on my to-do list.

To do TODAY! *Crushes IE with the sheer power of Firefox*

*Laughs at Mac user*

Bah. You laugh now, but someday we shall dominate the earth! After the products stop being so expensive, and the system stops crashing so often, and you can change the name of the root account without getting locked out, and more software becomes available to increase functionality, and the system files become easier to find and access, and there is greater hardware compatibility, and they don't break so easily when you drop them on the floor.

E: Yeah, if I hadn't gotten this one as a gift, I'd probably be teaching myself Linux or somethin'.

Enough smart people use Opera that I really should consider giving it another go.

I just can't get this ridiculous image of Pavarotti in a waistcoat out of my head. And while Firefox does very occasionally lock up, at least that doesn't involve a fat lady singing. :)

Use Firefox out of necessity. It's a tad too vulnerable for my tastes, though, but I don't have anything else and I can't be arsed to go through fixing the build of IE I was using.

Opera. I only use something else if I'm absolutely forced to.

Seamonkey!!!!!!!!!!!!

I loves it.

Bah. You laugh now, but someday we shall dominate the earth! After the products stop being so expensive, and the system stops crashing so often, and you can change the name of the root account without getting locked out, and more software becomes available to increase functionality, and the system files become easier to find and access, and there is greater hardware compatibility, and they don't break so easily when you drop them on the floor.

E: Yeah, if I hadn't gotten this one as a gift, I'd probably be teaching myself Linux or somethin'.

Rofl. My sentiments exactly, plus it's really, really easy to upgrade hardware on PCs.

Firefox as well.

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/3202/mo9bu.gif

A couple of sites I use only work in IE, including my bank. I use Opera when I have to check that things work in Opera. For everything else, there's Firefox.

I use Safari, Camino, Opera and Mozilla Firefox. These are the best browsers for Mac. IE is shyte.

*High-fives*

…and the system stops crashing so often…

The only system problems I've ever had were both NMS inflicted.

I use Konqueror or Firefox. Prefer the former, but the latter is not too bad.

What are the pro's and con's of Opera versus Firefox?

What are the pro's and con's of Opera versus Firefox?
Opera: Buttload of stuff you may not use available. Marginally faster, but not still insignificant compared to the time it takes to actually download the webpage.

Firefox: Does things more in the way people expect them to be done. Much higher potential for customization. If a webpage is tested against more than just IE, it is tested against Firefox.

Firefox vulnerable? Please elaborate.It was designed by humans.

Use Firefox out of necessity. It's a tad too vulnerable for my tastes, though, but I don't have anything else and I can't be arsed to go through fixing the build of IE I was using.

Firefox vulnerable? Please elaborate.

Firefox vulnerable? Please elaborate.

It cries when you close tabs - are you sure you want to close them all, you don't want to just leave one open, just a little one, please...

Vulnerable and sensitive.

The browser wars are starting again, yay for designers :(

Apple sneakily included downloading Safari with an i-Tunes update a couple of months ago.

They're bringing out the new Firefox and the new IE this year, IE will allow you to cut and paste a portion of a dynamic website and place it in a sidebar so you can watch sports updates or whatever. Firefox has a history tool that probably means bookmarking is no longer needed.

In a way it's all good for the consumer and a pain in the ass for site designers and, given it's thought that the computer of the future might only require a browser button, highly important to the competitors.

They're bringing out the new Firefox and the new IE this year, IE will allow you to cut and paste a portion of a dynamic website and place it in a sidebar so you can watch sports updates or whatever.

Safari already has that.

…a pain in the ass for site designers…

Please, elaborate.

Safari already has that.

Open in Dashboard?

Roughly yeah, I think IE does it in the browser itself, if Safari does that I don't know about it, I have a spanking new black Macbook so I'd be happy if it does.

Open in Dashboard?

Roughly yeah, I think IE does it in the browser itself, if Safari does that I don't know about it, I have a spanking new black Macbook so I'd be happy if it does.

Ah. When you said "sidebar", I assumed you meant in a Widget-type-thing, instead of, you know, a sidebar.

I'm surprised Safari doesn't already have what you brought up. It doesn't seem like it'd be terribly hard to implement…

Please, elaborate.

The difference between Netscape, MSHTML and whatever Apple uses now?

As users get used to downloading browsers, and as browsers become more central to the computer, I can certainly see standards widen rather than merge into one as new forms of browsers appear - there's a potential Google to be made for the breakthrough browser and I think it's an area that will see the greatest change at some point - how we browse, how we access and store content.

I'm behind on all this though, not that I've ever been up on it, is there a worldwide standard that you can build sites to that is both flexible and operates across all the engines?

I'm behind on all this though, is there a worldwide standard that you can build sites to that is both flexible and operates across all the engines?

Well, so long as the engine adheres to web standards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web_Consortium), there should be no design problems for sites that adhere to web standards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web_Consortium). Of course, right now many proper sites have to include browser specific workarounds for engines that do not fully adhere to web standards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_%28layout_engine%29)

Edit: Also this (http://www.csszengarden.com/) is cool.

Of course, right now many proper sites have to include browser specific workarounds for engines that do not fully adhere to web standards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_%28layout_engine%29)

Gotta love 'em eh?

It cries when you close tabs - are you sure you want to close them all, you don't want to just leave one open, just a little one, please...
You can tell it to stop that. If you don't like the defaults, change them.

You can tell it to stop that. If you don't like the defaults, change them.

Seems kind of final, don't you think? You don't want Firefox to go out into the garage and hang itself.

Seems kind of final, don't you think? You don't want Firefox to go out into the garage and hang itself.

Meh. I had to make my husband fix my Vista when I first got it.

"do you want to download this? are you sure? did you know that something is trying to download something? do you want to let it download something? are you sure you want to download something? downloading things might be dangerous, are you sure you want to? do you trust this website? Microsoft website is trying to download something do you want to? we are scanning the file for virus because we aren't sure if we trust Microsoft is that okay? do you want to download this file from Microsoft after we scan it? We scanned it and it's virus free do you want to download this? .........
You downloaded a file, do you want to open it? Your browser is trying to open a file that you downloaded is that okay? "

I was like "FUCK, JUST LET ME DOWNLOAD THIS FUCKING XLS TEMPLATE"

I almost threw the thing across the room.

It asks me nothing now, it's awesome.

It asks me nothing now, it's awesome.

*infects Smunkee's computer*

I like OS X's way of handling security. That little "Enter your password" dialogue box pretty much elicits a Pavlovian response in me now.

we are scanning the file for virus because we aren't sure if we trust Microsoft is that okay?

In the computer security business, trust no one. Not even yourself. ;)

Edit: Also this (http://www.csszengarden.com/) is cool.

Sweet! I like "under the sea" best, probably no co-incidence that it's top of the list.

Meh. I had to make my husband fix my Vista when I first got it.

Each new generation of Windows manages to annoy me in new ways. Sure a lot of the nonsense can be turned off ... but I just can't stomach that a Core 2 running Vista feels exactly as slow as a PII running win 98.

There's a strong implication that MS thinks that is fast enough. Enable a whole lot of stuff by default, because the convenience of not having to enable features outweighs having your new computer go fast.

Wretched. I hope I never have to even use, let alone own, whatever they come out with next. :headbang:

Click Stand;13720481']I'll use IE until it stops working, then I'll swith to FF. Until then I can't be bothered to get used to something new.

I don't usually remember why I use Firefox until I go back to IE for something, then I usually remember one of two things.

1) Firefox remembers what was in my tabs if it crashes or the computer restarts
2) Firefox remembers what was in forms, so if a many words long post doesn't go through because it has one too many images you can hit back and it will still be there *glares at IE*

It cries when you close tabs - are you sure you want to close them all, you don't want to just leave one open, just a little one, please...

Vulnerable and sensitive.
When it comes to computer software vulnerable means weak security so that is not vulnerable, it's whiny and annoying.

I hate to be nagged with questions like that too and have turned off all on my computer except the ones that really do warrant double checking, which is mostly admin tasks.

As for web browsers I use Konqueror.

I use firefox after my brother, claiming to be technogenius, broke ie. So far, nothing we have tried has worked. I stopped asking people for advice, however, when I realised that firefox was so much better. Also, I use opera mini on my phone (yes, I'm a web addict) so that stuff loads properly.
Question: how many browsers are there out there and what are they?

When it comes to computer software vulnerable means weak security so that is not vulnerable, it's whiny and annoying.

Yes yes I know, I was making a joke.

Regardless...

Link (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Browser-Wars-Internet-Explorer-vs-Firefox-vs-Safari-vs-Opera-83045.shtml)

Judging strictly by the sheer volume of vulnerabilities Mozilla Firefox was the most insecure browser in 2007, according to Symantec. Firefox had a total of 122 security holes, more than any other rival browser.

The difference, of course, is that Firefox gets patches out far quicker.

Question: how many browsers are there out there and what are they?
That I can think of right now... Internet Explorer, Opera, Safari, Konqueror, AOL's browser, Midori, Chimera, Lynx, Links, ELinks. Then there is Firefox's ancestors Netscape and Mozilla plus it's decendents Iceweasel, Epiphany, Galeon, SeaMonkey, Kazehakaze and Songbird.
Yes yes I know, I was making a joke.
Damnit, good one. Can't believe I fell into a pedantry trap.:(

Use IE and Firefox at the moment - trying to see which I prefer. I am finding Firefox a little slower, especially for images on webpages - I probably haven't got it set up properly yet.

firefox from jump. as soon as the free six months of aol that came bundled with the box ran out. i.e. sits back there twiddling its thumbs, occasionally invoked by things i have no idea how to tell them not to, like micro-swuft's updates of whatever else they don't charge for, and a couple of other things, i forget what.

everything aol i was able to purge from the system, well everything that wasn't completely burried and hidden anyway. yes the damd i.e. came bundled to, along with a ton of other crap i've never even opened and have no intention of ever doing, some of micro-swufts bean counter crap.

in short the only thing i ever CHOOSE to connect with IS firefox.
(as long as i'm running micro-swuft's os's. if i ever get around to learning and running some linux variation i know that will be a whole nother world. far's i know there isn't firefox for linux, but if there is or comes to be, i'd probably use it there too)

i'm an old man and i doubt if i'll ever code again since they took away my spegetti basic, so i'll probably never get around to linux, but i do have a couple of old boxes i might one of these days succeed in resurecting to try it out on.

=^^=
.../\...

(as long as i'm running micro-swuft's os's. if i ever get around to learning and running some linux variation i know that will be a whole nother world. far's i know there isn't firefox for linux, but if there is or comes to be, i'd probably use it there too)
Yes that will be a whole other world. Trying to do things the Windows way in Linux will lead to unnecessary, awkward and cumbersome hassles. Finding and getting used to the Linux way to do things takes time. But at least there is Firefox for Linux.
i'm an old man and i doubt if i'll ever code again since they took away my spegetti basic, so i'll probably never get around to linux,
If you ask for Linux help online you will be told to use the command line console (it's like DOS or Windows PowerShell but much more useful) even though you don't have to because it's easier to write "copy/paste these commands" than "click there and here and there and over there... no i mean THERE!" in a chat or forum. But except for rare worst case scenarios like fixing completely screwed graphics drivers or fixing that it won't even start properly everything can be done by graphical point and click too. You don't have to know programming or even how to type commands to use Linux.
but i do have a couple of old boxes i might one of these days succeed in resurecting to try it out on.
You don't need an extra computer for that. If you put any modern Linux variant into the CD drive and reboot it will start from the CD without making any changes to the hard drive. A CD is much slower than a hard drive and read-only so all changes are lost when you shut down but other than that you can try all the functionality on any computer without making any changes to the computer. There are only 2 difficult steps to this. First you must burn an .iso file as an image on Windows and remember to tell the burner application to verify the CD after burning so you don't run into weird errors due to a damaged CD later. Then you may have to change the computer's BIOS settings to enable booting from a CD.

Epiphany on Gecko

A CD is much slower than a hard drive and read-only so all changes are lost when you shut down but other than that you can try all the functionality on any computer without making any changes to the computer.

Lots o' RAM helps. I ran Ubuntu 8 from CD a few days ago, meaning to get online and get a few things I needed. Checked into NSG ... and never got around to the install.

Uptime is now 3 days, and I hardly ever hear the CD reading, most of what I need is cached in RAM. I'm manually saving stuff like bookmarks to a flash drive, though even that can be automated (eg by putting the home directory on the flash drive.)

The graphics card I have (MSI GeForce 4, forgot the model number now) will only do a decent resolution with closed source NVidia drivers and they didn't work first time they way they did with Dapper Drake (EDIT: Er, I mean Gutsy, Ubuntu 7.) Any advice you may have would be appreciated. :)

Yes yes I know, I was making a joke.

Regardless...

Link (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Browser-Wars-Internet-Explorer-vs-Firefox-vs-Safari-vs-Opera-83045.shtml)

The difference, of course, is that Firefox gets patches out far quicker.

If I wanted advice on how to program well, Symantec isn't one of the companies I'd be taking it from.

I patch in directly through the Matrix. It's quite cool seeing all these 3d representations of posters running around fighting and shooting the hell out of each other.

Seamonkey!!!!!!!!!!!!

I loves it.

w00t, another seamonkey user :) (I use it too) They seem to be rare...

I recently moved from Netscape to Firefox. The only time I ever use IE is at work.

w00t, another seamonkey user :) (I use it too) They seem to be rare...

Perhaps because the name really crosses that line from "appealingly quirky" to "wtf?" :p

What are its advantages? I vaguely remember it being lightweight like Konqueror.

I use Firefox, because I heard Micro$oft was run by evil, money-grabbing corporate failcats!!11!!one!

No, I use it because it's superior, in my mind.
In its glory days it was invulnerable to spyware and the like, but it's still pretty resilient now, and still much better than Internet Explorer in my opinion.

IE isn't bad, I just find it clunky, unwieldy and sluggish. Faults which are not present in Firefox.

Still use Outlook Express though :P

Perhaps because the name really crosses that line from "appealingly quirky" to "wtf?" :p

What are its advantages? I vaguely remember it being lightweight like Konqueror.

It's a pretty idiot proof interface, I originally downloaded it for my elderly neighbor who was having trouble browsing in Firefox. (She has Linux on the machine my husband built her). I also downloaded it for my child because it has an html editor that is WYSIWYG and it has a mail and newsgroup program so my daughter can use those and not have to use Outlook(which she hates.)

I basically only use Vista for work and the only reason I have to do that is a few programs I use will only work on Windows.

I even use Seamonkey when I am on Vista though, because it rocks.

http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2005/12/31/seamonkey-beta-improves-on-mozilla-legacy

There's someone's opinion of it.

Firefox.

*High-fives*

*High-fives back*



The only system problems I've ever had were both NMS inflicted.

I forgot to add that I also use Netscape. Anything but IE. IE makes my laptop incredibly slow.

Safari. It works very well. Firefox for those two times out of 50 when it doesn't.

On my PC and at work, mostly FF
On my mobile phone, Opera Mini.
Sometimes Opera on PC and IE rarely...

Firefox.

According to THIS (http://www.e-janco.com/browser.htm), Firefox has about 15% of the 'market' and IE 65%.

That's just the most current data I can see, it might be biased but its not wildly at odds with well-documented figures from Jan of this year. If anyone has better figures, correct me.

Now, NSG seems to be the other way around. Only a few of us use IE except at work.

Safari is also way over-represented here, but obviously that's because mac users are likewise a bigger proportion of NSG than the general population. There's no shame in that, Mac has always been about aesthetic values which clearly NSG cares for too.

Are we just MS-skeptics? If it's mainstream, it must be crap? Are half of us using IE but ashamed of it? Or is IE only holding onto market share by being installed on new computers which only noobs don't know how to upgrade, and corporate networks where it is supported as part of the OS?

I'm sure I don't know. The first time I saw the "world wide web" on NCSA Mosaic I scoffed. "What a stupid gimmick" was prettymuch my attitude to the only browser there was then, and the core of today's 'internet' experience. :p

Firefox with a heavily customized toolbar so I get more space to view the web in all its glory, with adblock plus and noscript to remove the less glorious bits of the web and cookieculler to improve my privacy a bit.

Flock to read news and comics and to see what contacts are doing.

Konqueror when things go wrong and I want to prove the fox isn't to blame.

W3m through a text-only ssh session to my university when I need to get some scientific paper (I HATEHATEHATE those "please pay so you can see this doc wasn't what you were looking for" screens :mp5: ) (I then scp those pdfs to my own computer).

IE when forced to use someone elses computer, but then I don't dare to do anything that requires a password because I'm afraid some evil spammers spi-wear will steal my password.

How many of you still use internet explorer? I personally just found IE to be just fine. Until I had to reformat my computer. Internet Explorer was running like crap, so I decided to switch to Mozilla Firefox. I have yet to regret the decision. What about you? Stories of how you decided to switch? What do you currently have? Discuss the glory of non-Internet Explorer browsers :p.

IE when I absolutely have to. I used to use Firefox but I refuse to touch that treacherous whore. It deleted my bookmarks 3 different times, was a memory whore, would crash and freeze for no reason, and more. I switched to Opera and wonder why Firefox users haven't migrated to it yet.

Are we just MS-skeptics? Are half of us using IE but ashamed of it? Or is IE only holding onto market share by being installed on new computers which only noobs don't know how to upgrade, and corporate networks where it is supported as part of the OS?

I would bet there's a few factors, from offices with firewalls that don't allow you to download software, to older people who are happy with IE thanks very much and then nations where there's less stigma against MS.

Probably a few more. It's really a legacy issue.

It's pretty amazing that FF has such a percentage given that IE comes pre-installed with MS. For some, I'd say it's not simply the better tools but also the novelty effect.

I made the full switch to Mac for one main reason, I simply couldn't stand buying another PC knowing that no matter, they all come with the same operating system. After 10 years or so, I just couldn't face Windows one more time, nothing really against it, just highly bored of the interface. Just for the moment, I find Ubuntu not shiny enough.

I suspect that's a bit of a driver for people switching from IE, it's just...well it's just the same again and again.

It is amusing to remember the reaction of the righteous to Microsoft's entry into the browser market.

Those hard-working folk at Netscape with their little commercial product Navigator were being put out of business by the dirtiest trick imaginable -- a FREE browser!

Neither IE 2 nor Navigator would stay browsing long enough without crashing that anyone would have even noticed the memory leak we deride FireFox for. :D

I made the full switch to Mac for one main reason, I simply couldn't stand buying another PC knowing that no matter, they all come with the same operating system. After 10 years or so, I just couldn't face Windows one more time, nothing really against it, just highly bored of the interface. Just for the moment, I find Ubuntu not shiny enough

I found it pretty shiny with the help of proprietary drivers to enable 3D graphics effects. Damn wish I had an ATI card though ... though nah. Bugger shiny ... I just wish NSG wasn't hosted on a sentient toaster.

I'm going to bed. Can't stand to see "Database Error" one more time. Grrr.

Firefox vulnerable? Please elaborate.

At the last count, it had around 3100 security holes. While only a small percentage were being exploited, they were there. From a design perspective Firefox is really not that good. It survives mainly because so few people use it.

IE when I absolutely have to. I used to use Firefox but I refuse to touch that treacherous whore. It deleted my bookmarks 3 different times, was a memory whore, would crash and freeze for no reason, and more. I switched to Opera and wonder why Firefox users haven't migrated to it yet.
Because Opera only went free when the realized they had no other choice by which time Firefox had already taken its marketshare because it is double plus awesome.

At the last count, it had around 3100 security holes. While only a small percentage were being exploited, they were there. From a design perspective Firefox is really not that good. It survives mainly because so few people use it.
Firefox holds the largest minority browser marketshare with around 20% and is increasing proportionally to IE's decrease. (With Apple's Safari in a distant third only because people are idiots and Apple are asshats and asserted Safari was a "required" download in their Apple update manager.)

I hate IE. I use Firefox. Screw those websites that require only IE.

It's a pretty idiot proof interface, I originally downloaded it for my elderly neighbor who was having trouble browsing in Firefox. (She has Linux on the machine my husband built her). I also downloaded it for my child because it has an html editor that is WYSIWYG and it has a mail and newsgroup program so my daughter can use those and not have to use Outlook(which she hates.)

http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2005/12/31/seamonkey-beta-improves-on-mozilla-legacy

There's someone's opinion of it.

Yeah, it's basically the continuation of the Mozilla suite. I like the user interface a bit better than Firefox and Thunderbird (maybe because I was used to it) and why install two programs when you can have the same functionality by installing one? ;)
I never use WYSIWYG html editors though, I prefer raw code (with a bit of salt and pepper).

I made the full switch to Mac for one main reason, I simply couldn't stand buying another PC knowing that no matter, they all come with the same operating system.

No, they don't.

mozilla. better tabbed browsing, speeds, spell-check, etc.

Both IE and Firefox, yet more of Firefox because of the restore session thing, whereas if you crash, you can pick up where you left off. You couldn't in IE 6.

(With Apple's Safari in a distant third only because people are idiots and Apple are asshats and asserted Safari was a "required" download in their Apple update manager.)

Well, I use Safari because it did indeed come with my G5 iMac. And guess what? For the vast majority of what I do online, it works perfectly. I have no reason to change. Sometimes I think that some people believe that changing to the newest "alternative" to IE is some kind of mark of intelligence or something. That might even be true. But if I've got something that works well for me, why should I stop using it?

Well, I use Safari because it did indeed come with my G5 iMac. And guess what? For the vast majority of what I do online, it works perfectly. I have no reason to change. Sometimes I think that some people believe that changing to the newest "alternative" to IE is some kind of mark of intelligence or something. That might even be true. But if I've got something that works well for me, why should I stop using it?

Truer words I haven't seen anywhere in a long time. Intangelon, you're my homeboy!:fluffle:

I switched to Firefox two years ago and haven't looked back. Oh, and I get 80% less viruses, faster browsing, and more features. IE really is a piece of shit.

At the last count, it had around 3100 security holes. While only a small percentage were being exploited, they were there. From a design perspective Firefox is really not that good. It survives mainly because so few people use it.

Fortunately extensions seal about all of them. NoScript, Adblock are the big two. Makes even the worst sites so much safer. I also use IE tab for those sites that refuse to work nice with Firefox.

Firefox but for no particular reason.

It cries when you close tabs - are you sure you want to close them all, you don't want to just leave one open, just a little one, please...

Vulnerable and sensitive.

The browser wars are starting again, yay for designers :(

Thats optional.
Thats a good thing, shows development of rich web content will be available to all :)

I personally use Firefox as a main browser, use Seamonkey for my whole web suite (mail, chat and web, it uses mostly Firefox based code and is licensed by Mozilla), I use IE for coding, versions 5.5 through to 8 and I use Safari for testing, Opera is also installed for testing.

I have to say though, Firefox is a superb browser due to add ons like the web developer toolbar (I highly advise a search if you do web developement), or firebug, also very customisable.

I also have to add although I use Firefox, Safari is definately the browser with the best engine, highly optimized, very standards compliant, nearly passes the Acid3 test :) However I just can't stand using it.

A final note, here is some browser statistics that may shock some people: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

I didn't bother to read if anyone had already posted these modifications, but Firefox has many addons and changes you can make to it, which, in my opinion, makes it far superior to IE.

K-meleon is also a Firefox based web browser that is more bare bones for those of you who like such things. I have it and it works just fine for me as well.


There are several things you can add to Firefox, such as an awesome program (imo) called Fasterfox, you can also change the pipelining settings by typing
"about:config" in the address bar, then typing http, set network.http.pipelining to true, then set network.http.pipelining.maxrequests to 100.

This, for me, has increased internet speed tremendously. There are also different skins you can add, and proxies to go with it, that can be found simply by doing a little research.

Camino here, its a mac only build of firefox and its AWESOME!

Well, i had used "Gay-OH-Hell" forever until it forced its Anti-Virus software on me...

It started to take over, lol, it messed up Norton and caused several programs to run improperly...Seriously, AOL is its own Virus...

So, i switched to Firefox, and, in my humble opinion its the best of the Internet Browsers, ive yet to have a problem with it...

Opera.

I can never really be bothered with all these over-the-top heated discussions. I like it for various reasons, but a simple one is that I just think it looks a hell of a lot nicer. It's all sparkly and clean... :)
Why do you people care so much about convincing other people that your browser is better? If you convince them all to come over to your minority browser, it'll become more virusy! :P

firefox

Opera baby :)

Occasionally Safari.

SeaMonkey.

Seamonkey!!!!!!!!!!!!

I loves it.
w00t, another seamonkey user :) (I use it too) They seem to be rare...

Yay! Last time we had a thread like this Fleckenstein was the only other person who had SeaMonkey, IIRC.

I use it exactly because of these reasons:
Yeah, it's basically the continuation of the Mozilla suite. I like the user interface a bit better than Firefox and Thunderbird (maybe because I was used to it) and why install two programs when you can have the same functionality by installing one? ;)

I only use IE for pages that don't work right in SeaMonkey. Oh, that reminds me: the only REALLY annyoing thing about SeaMonkey is that it totally doesn't work with Ebay. As in, as soon as I want to log in at whatever level, it just doesn't take. Do you guys have the same problem (or know how to fix it, mayhaps...)?

My preferred browser is still IE6, but it's hard to get these days with IE7 popping up all over. And IE7 blows, so I tend to use Firefox wherever I can't have IE6.

Iceweasel/FF for the most part on my personal computer (occasionally opera and Links/Lynx)

IE 7 for the most part on work machines as installing un needed applications on hundreds of terminal servers is not an acceptable prospect. (local Iceweasel)

IE7 is tolerable with IE7pro as well ... makes it almost ff like

Fortunately extensions seal about all of them. NoScript, Adblock are the big two. Makes even the worst sites so much safer. I also use IE tab for those sites that refuse to work nice with Firefox.
There are still some areas where IE tab does not quite do it (it does help though)

At the last count, it had around 3100 security holes. While only a small percentage were being exploited, they were there. From a design perspective Firefox is really not that good. It survives mainly because so few people use it.

So few people? 39.1 percent of the browser market is hardly a "few" people

The only browser that beats it is if you consider both IE6 and 7 combination FF beats them both individual by more then 10 percent (then to be fair you would have to consider THEIR security holes in combination as well)

According to THIS (http://www.e-janco.com/browser.htm), Firefox has about 15% of the 'market' and IE 65%.

That's just the most current data I can see, it might be biased but its not wildly at odds with well-documented figures from Jan of this year. If anyone has better figures, correct me.

Now, NSG seems to be the other way around. Only a few of us use IE except at work.

Safari is also way over-represented here, but obviously that's because mac users are likewise a bigger proportion of NSG than the general population. There's no shame in that, Mac has always been about aesthetic values which clearly NSG cares for too.

Are we just MS-skeptics? If it's mainstream, it must be crap? Are half of us using IE but ashamed of it? Or is IE only holding onto market share by being installed on new computers which only noobs don't know how to upgrade, and corporate networks where it is supported as part of the OS?

I'm sure I don't know. The first time I saw the "world wide web" on NCSA Mosaic I scoffed. "What a stupid gimmick" was prettymuch my attitude to the only browser there was then, and the core of today's 'internet' experience. :p
W3schools
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

Has FF at 39.1 percent

W3schools
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

Has FF at 39.1 percent

Hey, thanks. :)

Still, you would agree that NSG seems over-represented in minority browsers?

Hey, thanks. :)

Still, you would agree that NSG seems over-represented in minority browsers?
NSG is over-represented in minority EVERYTHING. Over-represented in Third parties, over-represented in Atemism/religion,etc,etc,. We're the strangest bunch out there! WOOT!

Hey, thanks. :)

Still, you would agree that NSG seems over-represented in minority browsers?

Sure ... hell I listed Links ... just one person over represents that browser :)

So few people? 39.1 percent of the browser market is hardly a "few" people

The only browser that beats it is if you consider both IE6 and 7 combination FF beats them both individual by more then 10 percent (then to be fair you would have to consider THEIR security holes in combination as well)

Could you try that second sentence again? As it stands now it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Truer words I haven't seen anywhere in a long time. Intangelon, you're my homeboy!:fluffle:

Back at you, baby.

:fluffle:

I cling to Safari because it comforts me.

Could you try that second sentence again? As it stands now it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Sure ... I apologise I was in the middle of waiting for a server to come back up and got cut short

The intent of the second statement was this

Firefox beats any single browser out there in number of users. The only way that it gets beat by number of users is by combining the IE browsers.

In the light of that it can hardly be considered a "small" target.

Safari on my Apple Laptop and Internet Explorer on my P.C but might be switching to Firefox as apparently it's a truck load better for security.

Sure ... I apologise I was in the middle of waiting for a server to come back up and got cut short

The intent of the second statement was this

Firefox beats any single browser out there in number of users. The only way that it gets beat by number of users is by combining the IE browsers.

In the light of that it can hardly be considered a "small" target.

And that's something that didn't happen until recently. Which probably explains the upswing in malware/adware/spyware that I've been getting in Firefox over the past few months.

And that's something that didn't happen until recently. Which probably explains the upswing in malware/adware/spyware that I've been getting in Firefox over the past few months.

In numbers it has been close to par for quite awhile and broke above IE6 (the bigger of the two even now) in September last year

I've been using IE since '97, and it never gave me problems.

I've also been using Windows since 1993, and had only one major problem (registry died -- and no files were lost)

I didn't bother to read if anyone had already posted these modifications, but Firefox has many addons and changes you can make to it, which, in my opinion, makes it far superior to IE.

K-meleon is also a Firefox based web browser that is more bare bones for those of you who like such things. I have it and it works just fine for me as well.


There are several things you can add to Firefox, such as an awesome program (imo) called Fasterfox, you can also change the pipelining settings by typing
"about:config" in the address bar, then typing http, set network.http.pipelining to true, then set network.http.pipelining.maxrequests to 100.

This, for me, has increased internet speed tremendously. There are also different skins you can add, and proxies to go with it, that can be found simply by doing a little research.Fasterfox is shit. Same with your piplining suggestion. All it tells the browser to do is make a request 100 times instead of once. This will get you your page faster on average, but will make already slow servers (which is where you would like to see the biggest improvement, no?) even slower because the already overloaded server deal with a bunch of fake requests.

Fasterfox is shit. Same with your piplining suggestion. All it tells the browser to do is make a request 100 times instead of once. This will get you your page faster on average, but will make already slow servers (which is where you would like to see the biggest improvement, no?) even slower because the already overloaded server deal with a bunch of fake requests.
Well to be fair it is possible to deny multiple connection attempts both on the server as well as the firewall level (which is fairly painless from a performance perspective)

But yeah ... still better to not have the browser do it at all even if it has a reasonable (and probably already implemented) protection option open.

Personally I use Opera. It's a decent browser. As far as I know Firefox doesn't have voice commands. And as for those using IE for certain pages because it won't load in another browser, you can tell Opera to emulate another browser like Firefox or IE. I have to do that for Facebook because of the new features like Facebok chat.

I use the following ordered from frequently used to rarely used:

FireFox
Safari
IE (utter shit, but better than Opera)
Opera (barely ever, but I do use it sometimes)

Personally I use Opera. It's a decent browser. As far as I know Firefox doesn't have voice commands. And as for those using IE for certain pages because it won't load in another browser, you can tell Opera to emulate another browser like Firefox or IE. I have to do that for Facebook because of the new features like Facebok chat.

Like IEtab it is not 100 percent effective ... I have fairly regularly run into things that FF has problems doing at least in an enterprise Envyronment

Personally like both FF and Opera but sometimes just better to pull out IE when needed

I hate tabbed browsing. If I have multiple pages open (or multiple anything open), I ALWAYS want each instance to be a separate entity on my task bar. I can't imagine why I would ever not want that.

I hate tabbed browsing. If I have multiple pages open (or multiple anything open), I ALWAYS want each instance to be a separate entity on my task bar. I can't imagine why I would ever not want that.
Why?

I hate tabbed browsing. If I have multiple pages open (or multiple anything open), I ALWAYS want each instance to be a separate entity on my task bar. I can't imagine why I would ever not want that.

to me having multiple things cluttering up my taskbar annoys me. that's why I have AIM auto-hide on minimize just so I have less tabs on the task bar.

to me having multiple things cluttering up my taskbar annoys me. that's why I have AIM auto-hide on minimize just so I have less tabs on the task bar.

No kidding specially with as much stuff is on there already just doing my work 10 - 15 more web pages open at a time would not be ideal

When on windows I have started using RD Tabs to also tab my RDP windows too

I hate tabbed browsing. If I have multiple pages open (or multiple anything open), I ALWAYS want each instance to be a separate entity on my task bar. I can't imagine why I would ever not want that.
Why would you want it? Even since Windows started automatically grouping multiple copies of the same program when too many windows are open, it is still a complete and utter mess. It is hard to sort through what's open and thus hard to move around in the windows. A single browser, multi-tab is the equivalent of a single process, multi-core system. Everything just works better.

Poll here!

Safari fails 26 tests on acid3, nice one!

I hate tabbed browsing. If I have multiple pages open (or multiple anything open), I ALWAYS want each instance to be a separate entity on my task bar. I can't imagine why I would ever not want that.
There is nowhere near enough room in the taskbar's 2 lines for every page/document I have left open over the couple weeks since last reboot. Even with tabs the open windows usually fill up the taskbars of 4-6 workspaces.

You are not alone though. One of my uncles live out on the countryside and is the village computer wizard. That is he is the only one who knows how to reinstall Windows, clean up viruses or insert a new graphics card. Anyway when I showed Firefox to him all went well until I demonstrated tabbed browsing. Then he lost interest entirely and walked away after proclaiming that having several pages open at the same time was too complicated and he would never use a browser with such a confusing feature.

Fasterfox is shit. Same with your piplining suggestion. All it tells the browser to do is make a request 100 times instead of once. This will get you your page faster on average, but will make already slow servers (which is where you would like to see the biggest improvement, no?) even slower because the already overloaded server deal with a bunch of fake requests.

Pipelining causes multiple files to be requested at the same time (using the same connection, but not waiting for one file to come back before the next request is sent) , it does NOT cause the same file to be requested multiple times, which frankly would be ridiculous. In many cases, it actually reduces the volume of network traffic by putting several HTTP requests into a single packet.

Pipelining causes multiple files to be requested at the same time (using the same connection, but not waiting for one file to come back before the next request is sent) , it does NOT cause the same file to be requested multiple times, which frankly would be ridiculous. In many cases, it actually reduces the volume of network traffic by putting several HTTP requests into a single packet.

I am not very familiar with how that plugin functions but there is no way that multipule seperate connections (to seperate files) are nested in the same packets ... they come in in compleatly seperate sequences

The over head for that determination even if it was SOP would be greater then the marginal add of network overhead added by the extra packet headers.

Edit:
Not to mention being practically useless across a NAT/PAT boundry

I am not very familiar with how that plugin functions but there is no way that multipule seperate connections (to seperate files) are nested in the same packets ... they come in in compleatly seperate sequences

The over head for that determination even if it was SOP would be greater then the marginal add of network overhead added by the extra packet headers.

Pipelining is a standard HTTP/1.1 feature only supported under persistent connections. Since pipelining uses a single socket to send all the requests, if a single request header doesn't fill a single packet totally, half of the next one can be put into that packet too. An HTTP connection is essentially just a stream of characters that happen to be transmitted over TCP and the TCP-layer doesn't care whether the HTTP requests are distinct or not, they are just characters going to the same place (there is AFAIK, apart from a strong convention and specific implementations, no reason that HTTP has to operate over TCP).

Bear in mind that the browser does NOT connect to files - It connects to a server daemon which it ASKS for data.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_pipelining

Oprah rulez teh interwebs....

Pipelining is a standard HTTP/1.1 feature only supported under persistent connections. Since pipelining uses a single socket to send all the requests, if a single request header doesn't fill a single packet totally, half of the next one can be put into that packet too. An HTTP connection is essentially just a stream of characters that happen to be transmitted over TCP and the TCP-layer doesn't care whether the HTTP requests are distinct or not, they are just characters going to the same place (there is AFAIK, apart from a strong convention and specific implementations, no reason that HTTP has to operate over TCP).

Bear in mind that the browser does NOT connect to files - It connects to a server daemon which it ASKS for data.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_pipelining

Hmmm Intresting i am going to have to read into that ...
You were right I was in my mind not thinking of persistant connections which makes a big difference

How many of you still use internet explorer? I personally just found IE to be just fine. Until I had to reformat my computer. Internet Explorer was running like crap, so I decided to switch to Mozilla Firefox. I have yet to regret the decision. What about you? Stories of how you decided to switch? What do you currently have? Discuss the glory of non-Internet Explorer browsers :p.

Right now IE7 is running fine on this computer - and, as a rule, if it ain't broke I'm not fixing it - but on the other, older machines I also use I've eliminated IE and installed Firefox. It does everything IE is supposed to do for the end user, and it doesn't do some of the things IE is supposed to do for Micro$oft, like attempting to open silly backdoors through my firewall - which isn't the Windoze Firewall, of course, what the hell.

Interesting poll results.

Right now, I'm using Safari. I sometimes use Firefox too.

Why?
So I can find anything I have open with a single click.
to me having multiple things cluttering up my taskbar annoys me. that's why I have AIM auto-hide on minimize just so I have less tabs on the task bar.
That makes it harder to get from one open instance to a specific other instance.
Why would you want it? Even since Windows started automatically grouping multiple copies of the same program when too many windows are open, it is still a complete and utter mess. It is hard to sort through what's open and thus hard to move around in the windows. A single browser, multi-tab is the equivalent of a single process, multi-core system. Everything just works better.
I disable that grouping, as well. Ideally, I'd like to be able to sort the contents of my task bar so I can keep my programs in the same order all the time. That would effectively turn the taskbar into hotbuttons and save me a bunch of time.

IE7 but i will probably d/l firefox 3 when it is released for the hell of it.

I hate tabbed browsing. If I have multiple pages open (or multiple anything open), I ALWAYS want each instance to be a separate entity on my task bar. I can't imagine why I would ever not want that.Isn't that a touch hard though? Or can you just remember which taskbar button goes to which instance really well? Cuz I would quickly run into issues with the task bar buttons making each other tiny in order to all fit.

Your uses may be different, but I would run out of taskbar space far to quickly.

EDIT: Actually testing against a common number of instances, Windows taskbar only gives me the application icon and the first letter of the window title. That is useless, I think.

Isn't that a touch hard though? Or can you just remember which taskbar button goes to which instance really well? Cuz I would quickly run into issues with the task bar buttons making each other tiny in order to all fit.

Your uses may be different, but I would run out of taskbar space far to quickly.

EDIT: Actually testing against a common number of instances, Windows taskbar only gives me the application icon and the first letter of the window title. That is useless, I think.
Im not quite to that point yet but I got lots of menu bar space ... its getting close and I am not even in the middle of a big project

Also sucks cause I normally arranged things topically

http://www.youdontevenrealize.com/pictures/computers/tabbed.jpg

So I can find anything I have open with a single click.
I'm not seeing how that is any different than tabbed browsing.

I'm not seeing how that is any different than tabbed browsing.

Technically if the window is not open it is 2 clicks 1 to bring the browser up and the second to change the tab if nessisary

Personally that is more then made up by organization capability (keeping all pages for 1 or another project in a single tabbed instance)

Technically if the window is not open it is 2 clicks 1 to bring the browser up and the second to change the tab if nessisary

Personally that is more then made up by organization capability (keeping all pages for 1 or another project in a single tabbed instance)

oh.. I open a browser window for each project.

why wasn't this poll multiple choice?

IE, FF and Opera are what i use. the latter for every day browsing, largely as i a) think its good for everything, and b) because i can configure keyboard shortcuts/commands for almost anything :)

Im not quite to that point yet but I got lots of menu bar space ... its getting close and I am not even in the middle of a big project

Also sucks cause I normally arranged things topically

http://www.youdontevenrealize.com/pictures/computers/tabbed.jpgIf I stretched my taskbar across both screens, then I would be what you where. However, I prefer it only on one, then having my main app maximized with no silly bar to get in the way.

If I stretched my taskbar across both screens, then I would be what you where. However, I prefer it only on one, then having my main app maximized with no silly bar to get in the way.

I do it that way when I am in *nix ... with how ultramon handles it I like it this way (the icons actually corrispond to the monitor location rather then just moving over there when the left monitor is full)

When working on projects I tend to organize right side documentation left side application

why wasn't this poll multiple choice?

IE, FF and Opera are what i use. the latter for every day browsing, largely as i a) think its good for everything, and b) because i can configure keyboard shortcuts/commands for almost anything :)

I use mostly IE and FF myself but I agree a mult choice would have been better even though Ice/FF are my primary browsers

There are things that even IE tab cant do on occasion and when working on terminal servers FF is not installed

hell IE even becomes mostly bearable when installing IEPro (so you get spell check and inline searching and mouse gestures and a bunch of other stuff)

I do it that way when I am in *nix ... with how ultramon handles it I like it this way (the icons actually corrispond to the monitor location rather then just moving over there when the left monitor is full)

When working on projects I tend to organize right side documentation left side applicationI do the same. Except my right monitor is a CRT, and it will sometimes bug me looking at it so I will jam everything on the left screen.

Except my music player. It is always open, and always on the right screen. If it supports it, I will get rid of its task bar entry.

Though my laptop has only one screen. One stupid fucking widescreen screen. Then everything has to be on the main screen, and nothing can be tall enough...

I do the same. Except my right monitor is a CRT, and it will sometimes bug me looking at it so I will jam everything on the left screen.

Except my music player. It is always open, and always on the right screen. If it supports it, I will get rid of its task bar entry.

Though my laptop has only one screen. One stupid fucking widescreen screen. Then everything has to be on the main screen, and nothing can be tall enough...

I used to use all kinds of combinations to work on all of them I consolidated using

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817107454

Allowing me to use my dual 19 wides on more then one machine easily, was worth it

I used to use all kinds of combinations to work on all of them I consolidated using

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817107454

Allowing me to use my dual 19 wides on more then one machine easily, was worth itI have only one system, and a laptop which can't do the whole dual screen thing.

I have only one system, and a laptop which can't do the whole dual screen thing.

I have 3 that are dual heads with gui's right now and another 4 headless machines up right now

And a laptop which does not get plugged in to monitors

btw, just a note on the tabbed browsing vs using the taskbar to organise browsing windows...

i found a great app called Xneat window manager (http://www.xneat.com/windows-manager/) (for windows) that lets you drag-and-drop items on your taskbar, hide windows, keep anything on top, etc. i can't imagine being without it now.

Incidentally, has anyone else noticed that the latest Firefox version seems to be a lot less stable than before, or is it just me?

The buggyness has really been getting on my nerves.

Incidentally, has anyone else noticed that the latest Firefox version seems to be a lot less stable than before, or is it just me?

The buggyness has really been getting on my nerves.

I think it's just you. You sure you didn't get the test version?

I think it's just you. You sure you didn't get the test version?

No, it's full release, and I've kept checking for updates. Don't get me wrong, it's not crashing constantly, just every now and again - often enough to get irritating.

Incidentally, has anyone else noticed that the latest Firefox version seems to be a lot less stable than before, or is it just me?

The buggyness has really been getting on my nerves.Maybe its your addons. For me, it has been much more stable than 2.x ever was.

Maybe its your addons. For me, it has been much more stable than 2.x ever was.

Good idea. I'll have a look if there are any I can get rid of.

I'm using Opera. I only change browsers if there's something wrong with my current one and Opera has been working flawlessly for me. Never tried Firefox. It may be great, but unless it cleans my shoes and gives free beer, I have no incentive of changing browsers.

I'm using Opera. I only change browsers if there's something wrong with my current one and Opera has been working flawlessly for me. Never tried Firefox. It may be great, but unless it cleans my shoes and gives free beer, I have no incentive of changing browsers.

It does if you get the 'clean shoes free beer' add on.

I still use Internet Explorer 7, I have no problems with it, so why should I change?

Awww, no poll?

I use Firefox (http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/), as I am an avid open-source user. I use all things open source that I can, including Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/) and OpenOffice (http://www.openoffice.org/).Ugh, I'm a wee bit pissed with Ubuntu as I installed Hardy recently and have been having sound conflicts between programs that use ALSA and those that use Pulse Audio. Frequently means I get no audio on youtube (flash) unless I want to close and reopen lots of applications. Ubuntu blames others for not using the APIs correctly, and some blame Ubuntu for trying to rush through Pulse Audio (as great as it may be -- application specific volume and such).

*sigh*

Oh yes, and I use Firefox 3 Beta 5.

Opera.


Can't beat the back/forward system of Opera (RMB + LMB, LMB + RMB).

I also simply adore the quick searching features....Browse to a site, click a text box, right click & create search, assign a key and avot...ud whut searches whut on urban dictionary. Or the bookmarking system, simply drag & drop a link to UI to create a link to it.


btw. IMO Firefox is too hyped and is valued too much simply because it's Open Source instead of the actual quality - or security - of the software.

Firefox, b/c it doesn't fail.

btw, just a note on the tabbed browsing vs using the taskbar to organise browsing windows...

i found a great app called Xneat window manager (http://www.xneat.com/windows-manager/) (for windows) that lets you drag-and-drop items on your taskbar, hide windows, keep anything on top, etc. i can't imagine being without it now.
I don't know why MS never gave us drag & drop on the task bar. Without it I have to shut down everything and restart from scratch to get all my windows in the right order should one of them crash.

I prefer Opera mostly because I've gotten used to it. I'd wager that most of the browsers can be "customized" to suit ones needs. Just that not many people can be bothered to actually do something themselves.

FF modded.