NationStates Jolt Archive

They were pretty stupid for running out of fuel, but at least their prayers were answered.
Do you believe prayers get answered?

WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) — It seemed like an almost literal answer to their prayers. When two New Zealand pilots ran out of fuel in a microlight airplane they offered prayers and were able to make an emergency landing in a field — coming to rest right next to a sign reading, "Jesus is Lord."

Grant Stubbs and Owen Wilson, both from the town of Blenheim on the country's South Island, were flying up the sloping valley of Pelorus Sound when the engine spluttered, coughed and died.

"My friend and I are both Christians so our immediate reaction in a life-threatening situation was to ask for God's help," Stubbs told the Associated Press on Wednesday.

He said he prayed during the ill-fated flight Sunday that the tiny craft would get over the top of a ridge and that they would find a landing site that was not too steep — or in the nearby sea.

Wilson said that the pair would have been in deep trouble if the fuel had run out five minutes earlier.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2008-05-22-flight-prayer_N.htm?csp=34

NASHVILLE, Tennessee (AP) -- The 5-year-old daughter of Grammy-winning Christian music star Steven Curtis Chapman was struck and killed Wednesday by a sport utility vehicle driven by her brother, authorities said.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/22/chapman.daughter.ap/index.html
I'd say hes busy praying that he'll wake up and it will have been a nightmare. What do you reckon his chances are?

Glad no one was hurt. :cool:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/22/chapman.daughter.ap/index.html
I'd say hes busy praying that he'll wake up and it will have been a nightmare. What do you reckon his chances are?

or he could be praying that he'll see her one day when he passes on.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I don't think the act of praying makes something come true. It's just a fact of life that sometimes the things we hope for and dream about happen and sometimes they don't.

You have to define prayer to whom, under what conditions, with what methods, and even the notion of prayer itself.

Altering reality isn't something simple, but let me put it this way:

They wanted to live. That desire, in and of itself, fueled the "prayers". Were they Wiccan, their "prayer" might land them on a pristine field, or somewhere with a pentagram, for instance.

Methods are many. It's the will that counts. If you define praying like you would a conjuration, with the "right words" and so on, sorry to burst your bubble, but it will work if and only if the will is there. Conversely, if you apply will without prayer, it is just as likely to work as will with prayer.

Of course prayers get answered. It's just that people often don't like the answers they get and choose to ignore them. When the answer is "No" or even "Ha! Fuck you!", it's still an answer...

Onwards with 60+ pages of circular religious 'debate'!

Huzzah!!

Onwards with 60+ pages of circular religious 'debate'!

Huzzah!!

Quite frankly, if people pay heed to my first post here, it won't be necessary.

You have to define prayer to whom, under what conditions, with what methods, and even the notion of prayer itself.


No I do not!

Onwards with 60+ pages of circular religious 'debate'!

Huzzah!!

Well, this is NSG and it is a slow holiday weekend in the US. :p

Quite frankly, if people pay heed to my first post here, it won't be necessary.

or Gravlen's post.

remember, the question is "do prayers get answered". a "no" is still an answer. :p

Do they get answered? Tell that to the poor African women, who begs and prays while hiding in a corner of her broken home, praying that the murderous rebels do not find her, untill she's found, raped and brutally murdered and her kids get horribly mutilated. Or tell that to people who get shot, begging "God" to stay alive, untill they die in the hands of there friends. Those things are cold hard reality (the first Sudan, for example).
Another example, I once saw a report on an earthquake where a woman cried and thanked God for the fact that her house was still standing up and that she didn't lost anyone, could she please tell that to 1 of there neighboors, who just lost everything they had, sometimes even family members.

No I do not!

Well, in order for me to answer, yes you do.

Snip.

Oy vey.

Oy vey.
Ehhhh, wut?

Of course prayers get answered. It's just that people often don't like the answers they get and choose to ignore them. When the answer is "No" or even "Ha! Fuck you!", it's still an answer...

The man speaks the truth! I think I need to sig that.
Do they get answered? Tell that to the poor African women, who begs and prays while hiding in a corner of her broken home, praying that the murderous rebels do not find her, untill she's found, raped and brutally murdered and her kids get horribly mutilated. Or tell that to people who get shot, begging "God" to stay alive, untill they die in the hands of there friends. Those things are cold hard reality (the first Sudan, for example).
Another example, I once saw a report on an earthquake where a woman cried and thanked God for the fact that her house was still standing up and that she didn't lost anyone, could she please tell that to 1 of there neighboors, who just lost everything they had, sometimes even family members.
So "No" isn't an acceptable answer? God didn't make suffering and pain for this woman, other humans did. Her reward will be in heaven. With all truth, I'd rather be brutally totured and go to heaven then to live a troubleless life and go to hell. The answer you ask for might not be the right one. See Gravlen's post.

It depends how you define "answer". See the following:

Situation 1: A child asks his father for money to buy sweets. The father says 'yes' and gives him the money.

Situation 2: A child asks his father for money to buy sweets. The father says 'no' and does not give him the money.

Both requests were "answered", although the result is opposite.

If what you want doesn't happen, it does not necessarily prove that a prayer was "unanswered". This is a matter of faith, not of evidence. If one is strong enough in faith, one can be able to face intense loss and still give glory to God.

"Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised." Job 1:20

It depends how you define "answer". See the following:

Situation 1: A child asks his father for money to buy sweets. The father says 'yes' and gives him the money.

Situation 2: A child asks his father for money to buy sweets. The father says 'no' and does not give him the money.

Both requests were "answered", although the result is opposite.

If what you want doesn't happen, it does not necessarily prove that a prayer was "unanswered". This is a matter of faith, not of evidence.

or as a joke put it.

a man prays to God. "Oh lord, what is time and money to you?"
and he recieves this reply "Both mean nothing to me. To me, a second is like a million years, and a million years like a second, and a million dollars is like a penny and a penny like a million dollars. "
then the man prays. "Oh lord, would you give me a penny?"
and his reply... "in a second."

or as a joke put it.

a man prays to God. "Oh lord, what is time and money to you?"
and he recieves this reply "Both mean nothing to me. To me, a second is like a million years, and a million years like a second, and a million dollars is like a penny and a penny like a million dollars. "
then the man prays. "Oh lord, would you give me a penny?"
and his reply... "in a second."
:D

So "No" isn't an acceptable answer? God didn't make suffering and pain for this woman, other humans did. Her reward will be in heaven. With all truth, I'd rather be brutally totured and go to heaven then to live a troubleless life and go to hell. The answer you ask for might not be the right one. See Gravlen's post.
There is no "No!", there is nothing. My grandma was once very devout, then it went bad with my grandpa. My grandma prayed for an explanation, prayed for answers and that things would work out: nothing followed, grandpa died (about 10 years ago). Nothing, just nothing.
Also, apperantly that God of yours isn't all-loving then. The woman I described is in such terror, still regains her faith and tries to rely on it, begs for help from the source she holds in such high regard. And does help come: no, nothing comes, just more horror. She was refused help, simple as that.
Even then, I'm technically ok with the existance of such a being because I can't decide whereither something exists or not, no one can, but don't f*cking lie to me.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/22/chapman.daughter.ap/index.html
I'd say hes busy praying that he'll wake up and it will have been a nightmare. What do you reckon his chances are?

http://www.wisn.com/news/15774202/detail.html
http://waf.eps.hw.ac.uk/Word%20of%20the%20Week%20pages/wow%20archive%20page%204.htm
In medieval Europe and England, ringing the church bell could be a hazardous occupation. During thunderstorms, it was general practice to ring church bells violently in an effort to keep the lightning from striking the tall church spire. Some felt the clamor of the bells dispersed evil spirits that sought to destroy the church with fire; others claimed that the noise of the bells disrupted the lightning strokes. (The second reason explains the common inscription on medieval bells: Fulgura Frango. which means "I break up the lightning flashes."). During the years from 1753 to 1786, lightning struck 386 French church towers. Lightning running down the bell ropes killed 103 French bell ringers. In 1786, the French government finally outlawed the custom.

During the eighteenth century, church vaults were often used to store large quantities of gunpowder. The combination of a high steeple and explosive contents often proved dangerous. In 1769, a lightning bolt struck the tower of St. Nazaire in Brescia, where 100 tons of gunpowder were stored. The resulting explosion destroyed one-sixth of the city and killed 3000 people. Lightning-induced explosions of stored gunpowder continued through the 1800's. As late as 1856, lightning struck the church of St. Jean on the island of Rhodes, the powder stored in the vaults exploded, and 4000 were killed.
Lucky them?

Correlation does not equal causation.

There is no "No!", there is nothing. My grandma was once very devout, then it went bad with my grandpa. My grandma prayed for an explanation, prayed for answers and that things would work out: nothing followed, grandpa died (about 10 years ago). Nothing, just nothing.
Also, apperantly that God of yours isn't all-loving then. The woman I described is in such terror, still regains her faith and tries to rely on it, begs for help from the source she holds in such high regard. And does help come: no, nothing comes, just more horror. She was refused help, simple as that.
Even then, I'm technically ok with the existance of such a being because I can't decide whereither something exists or not, no one can, but don't f*cking lie to me.
*sighs* TGD, I'm getting tired of you and your "Well SHE didn't get the answer she wanted, so it must not have been an answer!" Arguments. Heaven is a better place then Earth, so why are you so angry over it? I would be sad if one, or both of my Grandparents died (They're almost like my parents I spend so much time with them) but I'd ALSO be happy that they went to a MUCH better place.

Since I don't believe in any kind of god it would be somewhat foolish of me to believe that such a being could answer prayers.

It depends how you define "answer". See the following:

Situation 1: A child asks his father for money to buy sweets. The father says 'yes' and gives him the money.

Situation 2: A child asks his father for money to buy sweets. The father says 'no' and does not give him the money.

Both requests were "answered", although the result is opposite.


Therefore by jumping in and saying "All is Gods will" one proves, very conveniently, that all is Gods will. In situations where this proves to be bad PR wise for the big G, suggest that its the fault of humanity/evil/the corrupt nature of earthly existence.

Therefore by jumping in and saying "All is Gods will" one proves, very conveniently, that all is Gods will. In situations where this proves to be bad PR wise for the big G, suggest that its the fault of humanity/evil/the corrupt nature of earthly existence.

Can you please bridge the two logics? I don't follow your jump completely.

I personally do not believe that their prayers were answered; I believe that their survival is a fortunate coincidence. Their prayers might have been answered, but we will never know.

Who was doing the paper work on this aircraft anyway? Wow, is all I can say... Do a better job next time...

Can you please bridge the two logics? I don't follow your jump completely.
My reading is that Nodinia's point was that it is impossible to falsify the assertion that "God answers prayers" because there are two possibilities: either God "answers" our prayers, or God does not, in which case we blame "humanity/evil/the corrupt nature of earthly existence."

All of this is dubious.

I don't see two guys making an emergency landing as a sign of divine intervention, no.

My reading is that Nodinia's point was that it is impossible to falsify the assertion that "God answers prayers" because there are two possibilities: either God "answers" our prayers, or God does not, in which case we blame "humanity/evil/the corrupt nature of earthly existence."

All of this is dubious.

I still don't understand...

My bad. :headbang:

The man speaks the truth! I think I need to sig that.

My prayers have been answered. :D

:eek:

OHSHI-

Further proof that "god's chosen people" are the retarded and the ill prepared.

They were pretty stupid for running out of fuel, but at least their prayers were answered.
Do you believe prayers get answered?

I dunno yet. Let us repeat this experiment a few 100 times.

I still don't understand...

My bad. :headbang:

Rule #1: The Boss is Always Right.
Rule #2: If the Boss is Wrong, see Rule #1.

There are parts of Arkansas where it would be nearly impossible not to hit a "Jesus is Lord" billboard during a crash landing. I didn't know they had those in NZ, but it's not surprising.

Rule #1: The Boss is Always Right.
Rule #2: If the Boss is Wrong, see Rule #1.

VERY CONFUSED!! :confused:

Does God answer prayers?
I don't know. I'll ask him.



... Damn.

I still don't understand...

My bad. :headbang:
Okay, the point is this: how do we know that God answers prayers if they are sometimes answered and sometimes not? We do know that we react differently depending on the "answer": if the answer is "yes, I will help you," then we sing praises to the LORD; if the answer is "no, I will not help you," then we blame our own wickedness or say that "God works in mysterious ways."

I think it was Nodinia's sarcastic way to make the point that God doesn't really answer prayers, but we like to pretend He does because it makes us feel better.

Okay, the point is this: how do we know that God answers prayers if they are sometimes answered and sometimes not? We do know that we react differently depending on the "answer": if the answer is "yes, I will help you," then we sing praises to the LORD; if the answer is "no, I will not help you," then we blame our own wickedness or say that "God works in mysterious ways."

No. Prayer is a very complex subject. It's not a straight "yes = this; no = that". First of all prayer isn't just about asking God for things. Second even if God says "no", we can still sing praises to the Lord - the two are not interlinked. Third even if God says "yes" He still works in mysterious ways.

Further proof that "god's chosen people" are the retarded and the ill prepared.

The recipe for unshakable faith.

There are parts of Arkansas where it would be nearly impossible not to hit a "Jesus is Lord" billboard during a crash landing. I didn't know they had those in NZ, but it's not surprising.
Wow, something i agree with you on. Yay!

Since I don't believe in any kind of god it would be somewhat foolish of me to believe that such a being could answer prayers.
Obviously, NSG is gonna have to do. *nods*

I think it was Nodinia's sarcastic way to make the point that God doesn't really answer prayers, but we like to pretend He does because it makes us feel better.

Or to rephrase it:
if the chance of something occuring is 1:100, and everyone involved prays, it seems God will answer about 1 prayer out of every 100.

If one can show it is in fact significantly more one would have an interesting startingpoint to argue in favour of the existence of God. Same if it is significantly less.

Obviously, NSG is gonna have to do. *nods*

I would not dare pray to NSG, for fear I would get an answer.

I would not dare pray to NSG, for fear I would get an answer.

Boy howdy.

I dunno yet. Let us repeat this experiment a few 100 times.

Test not the lord Thy God! ;)

Test not the lord Thy God! ;)Whose god?
*coughs*
Ah, for bother. They don't pass muster anyway.
If i need to elaborate, i'll point out that if i test "God" with iron, "He" loses.
:)

No. Prayer is a very complex subject. It's not a straight "yes = this; no = that". First of all prayer isn't just about asking God for things. Second even if God says "no", we can still sing praises to the Lord - the two are not interlinked. Third even if God says "yes" He still works in mysterious ways.
Well, I'm not making the argument.


If you want to believe God works in mysterious ways, the more power to you...

Whose god?
*coughs*
Ah, for bother. They don't pass muster anyway.
If i need to elaborate, i'll point out that if i test "God" with iron, "He" loses.
:)

wouldn't matter Straughn. if we did that test and the plane does make it enough times to 'pass' then people will say it wasn't an act of God but normal occurances and will make up some scientific theory why it passed then proceed to get published.

If the opposite occures, then it will be labeled 'a fluke' and not the work of God or that the pilots were 'mistaken' and just plain 'lucky'.

wouldn't matter Straughn. if we did that test and the plane does make it enough times to 'pass' then people will say it wasn't an act of God but normal occurances and will make up some scientific theory why it passed then proceed to get published.

If the opposite occures, then it will be labeled 'a fluke' and not the work of God or that the pilots were 'mistaken' and just plain 'lucky'.It would follow that people tire of the despair and opt to wait no further, instead to challenge, here and now, what is appearing to be cowering behind ceremony, clouds, dust, and skulduggery.
If "he" exists, as the nobility and honour we like to think is in "his" name, surely he couldn't cower another second, right?

wouldn't matter Straughn. if we did that test and the plane does make it enough times to 'pass' then people will say it wasn't an act of God but normal occurances and will make up some scientific theory why it passed then proceed to get published.

If the opposite occures, then it will be labeled 'a fluke' and not the work of God or that the pilots were 'mistaken' and just plain 'lucky'.

No. You can't recreate the test 100%. It'd be pointless.

It would follow that people tire of the despair and opt to wait no further, instead to challenge, here and now, what is appearing to be cowering behind ceremony, clouds, dust, and skulduggery.
If "he" exists, as the nobility and honour we like to think is in "his" name, surely he couldn't cower another second, right?

all from 'your' perception.

you are asking God to define himself by your perceptions.

All of which doesn't answer the notion of no matter what kind of test we dream up, people will make the results match their beliefs.

It'd be pointless.

well, we agree on this point anyway. To argue the rest is... er... pointless. :p

well, we agree on this point anyway. To argue the rest is... er... pointless. :p

Yar.

all from 'your' perception.Indeed, what else is there? Including my values, my understanding of worth and suffering? That's what i'm supposed to do.

you are asking God to define himself by your perceptions.Indeed, that's the delusion that religious people suffer from in thinking they have an angle up on other people, what with them trying desperately to define "god" for everyone else.

All of which doesn't answer the notion of no matter what kind of test we dream up, people will make the results match their beliefs.Nonetheless, the tests that have already been provided, to our best efforts, have shown "God" to be lacking. Even its own propaganda lit quantifies that.

All the more reason, as i say, to stop the bullshit and make the line in the sand here.

Indeed, what else is there? Including my values, my understanding of worth and suffering? That's what i'm supposed to do. no, that's is NOT what you're 'supposed to do'.
Indeed, that's the delusion that religious people suffer from in thinking they have an angle up on other people, what with them trying desperately to define "god" for everyone else. the same delusion shared by those who say
"Science proves X thus God doesn't exist"?

the same delusion that others call Religious People crazy for believing in "the man in the sky"?

Nonetheless, the tests that have already been provided, to our best efforts, have shown "God" to be lacking. Even its own propaganda lit quantifies that.nope, they haven't been provided. and again you are deciphering what you percieve as the results with your bias.

To be more serious than my last post, I think God (if there is a god) clearly does not answer prayers- that is, God doesn't give people what they pray for.
I think we were put here with the power to solve our own problems. And if it turns out we can't solve our problems... whatever. We failed. God will just start over with a new sentient species- another attempt to accomplish whatever it was he was hoping to accomplish by creating us.
The pilots were lucky. If a Tag Deodorant billboard had been there, I certainly wouldn't take it as a sign that I should start wearing Tag, anymore than I would take landing next to a Jesus billboard as a sign that I should become a devout Christian.
God had nothin' to do with it. Why not save all the other planes that have gone down? I'm sure every airliner that ever went down had at least one person on it praying to live. God picking and choosing just doesn't make sense to me.

no, that's is NOT what you're 'supposed to do'.

So if we can't make judgements based on our perceptions then what should we base them on?

no, that's is NOT what you're 'supposed to do'.How am i not supposed to use my faculty, instinct, reason, and sensibility? How exactly?

the same delusion shared by those who say
"Science proves X thus God doesn't exist"?The lines are crossed at times, but are not inherently mutually exclusive. Simply put, science is the pursuit of how, and often times why comes along with it ... by sense of cause and effect, not by sense of semantics and emotional appeasement.

the same delusion that others call Religious People crazy for believing in "the man in the sky"?
Working with what they got, is what i'd call that :p
nope, they haven't been provided. and again you are deciphering what you percieve as the results with your bias.And the literature. Judges 1:17- :19 is a nice example, which i already provided. So yes, an example of having been provided. It's not like this forum itself hasn't gone over this ad nauseum.

So if we can't make judgements based on our perceptions then what should we base them on?
actually, the proper thing to say would be
So if we can't make judgements on God based on our perceptions then what should we base them on?
Simple, we cannot judge, define or command God by our perceptions. God is.

Sure some people will say "God is kind, all loving, merciful, etc..." and he is. but he is also Vengeful, Jelous, Demanding... etc.

in truth. God Is.

anything more specific and you are trying to fit an ocean into a 2 litre bottle. You end up with a tiny fraction of a fraction of the Ocean and not the full thing which would contain much more than just the water in those 2 litres.

People see many aspects that are but a fraction of God. From the uncaring to the loving, from the vengeful to the merciful and each person then claims their view is the correct one. but like those seven blind wise men examining the elephant they only know what they see (or feel) and their picture is different than the real thing.

what is God? who is He?

God is.

what is God? who is He?

God is.Invariably, the caveat you lent me about assumptions based on perception is the true concern here, in this very post.

I've heard it said, laughably, that the best trick "the" "devil" ever pulled was convincing people "he" didn't exist.
Surely not a challenge for a god to do the same, no?

How am i not supposed to use my faculty, instinct, reason, and sensibility? How exactly?how are you supposed to use your instinct, reason, and sensibility to define something beyond your instinct, reason and sensibility?

The lines are crossed at times, but are not inherently mutually exclusive. Simply put, science is the pursuit of how, and often times why comes along with it ... by sense of cause and effect, not by sense of semantics and emotional appeasement. I agree, and unfortnatly, for both sides of the issue, alot of people won't agree.

Working with what they got, is what i'd call that :p yep. but that does, at times, make both sides blind, deaf, and dumb. :p
And the literature. Judges 1:17- :19 is a nice example, which i already provided. So yes, an example of having been provided. It's not like this forum itself hasn't gone over this ad nauseum. Judges 1: 17 - 19?
yet what was the test? to drive the Canaanites from the plains or from the cities?

Invariably, the caveat you lent me about assumptions based on perception is the true concern here, in this very post.

I've heard it said, laughably, that the best trick "the" "devil" ever pulled was convincing people "he" didn't exist.
Surely not a challenge for a god to do the same, no?

"Do just enough to keep em wondering." :D

the fact that people say 'God is All Loving" is true. people do say that. but what they don't remember is that God is jealous, vengeful and even stern. sure he's merciful, kind and Giving as well as Forgiving but people like to focus on the percieved positive (yet they have no problem saying "[group] is going to HELL!") and forget about the percieved negative.

I try not to say "God is [whatever]" because that tends to lock down one's thinking and starts a trend of ignoring other points that God has shown.
Yes he is merciful, but His mercy may be different than mine.

how are you supposed to use your instinct, reason, and sensibility to define something beyond your instinct, reason and sensibility?You know full well that other peoples' unsubstantiated semantics are not an issue of my faculty of instinct reason and sensibility. Alas, they are of a contradictory nature. You know this.
Further, you know as well as i that you personally are unable to make an assessment of what is or is not "beyond" my instinct, reason and sensibility.
In thinking as much, consider what type of social circumstances usually accompany such philosophies of faculty, as unsubstantiated approach of superiority from a position that can't be quantified by any measurable means.
If you choose to exclude my ability to measure you do the same, which means it's somewhat pointless to argue about the assumption until some facts are provided.
Kinda like what you said here ... that does, at times, make both sides blind, deaf, and dumb. :p

I agree, and unfortnatly, for both sides of the issue, alot of people won't agree. Doesn't mean they won't argue about it, though. :p

Judges 1: 17 - 19?
yet what was the test? to drive the Canaanites from the plains or from the cities?
I'd posted it earlier. God failed to drive them off because they had iron chariots. As has been made clear, in a broader sense, is that god fails to live up to the tests that are provided by science and scientific endeavour, which is the arguable point of the advantage they had with iron.
When it's said so often that "nothing is too hard for god", it's important to be reminded of such instance.

"Do just enough to keep em wondering." :D

the fact that people say 'God is All Loving" is true. people do say that. but what they don't remember is that God is jealous, vengeful and even stern. sure he's merciful, kind and Giving as well as Forgiving but people like to focus on the percieved positive (yet they have no problem saying "[group] is going to HELL!") and forget about the percieved negative.This sounds like a PR issue if there ever were one :p

Yes he is merciful, but His mercy may be different than mine.Indeed, that's pretty much the root of most of the types of arguments here, including a strong angle on this one in particular. :p

actually, the proper thing to say would be

Simple, we cannot judge, define or command God by our perceptions. God is.

Sure some people will say "God is kind, all loving, merciful, etc..." and he is. but he is also Vengeful, Jelous, Demanding... etc.
And you know this, how?

in truth. God Is.
That truth bit is somewhat in dispute.

anything more specific and you are trying to fit an ocean into a 2 litre bottle. You end up with a tiny fraction of a fraction of the Ocean and not the full thing which would contain much more than just the water in those 2 litres.

People see many aspects that are but a fraction of God. From the uncaring to the loving, from the vengeful to the merciful and each person then claims their view is the correct one. but like those seven blind wise men examining the elephant they only know what they see (or feel) and their picture is different than the real thing.

what is God? who is He?

God is.

So you know all this about God, but with perceiving any of it. Interesting.

Doesn't mean they won't argue about it, though. :p I think the evidence for that can be found throughout this forum. :D

I'd posted it earlier. God failed to drive them off because they had iron chariots. As has been made clear, in a broader sense, is that god fails to live up to the tests that are provided by science and scientific endeavour, which is the arguable point of the advantage they had with iron.
When it's said so often that "nothing is too hard for god", it's important to be reminded of such instance.
Again, what was the test? to drive the Caanites out of the cities (which they did and they held) or the plains (which they did but could not hold.)
and did they (the men of Judah, Simeonites and others) hold the country? Could not holding the country still be 'delivering their lands to them'?

what did God say? that he promised them the land or that the Caanites would be driven completely out?

The problem with saying "God is" is that one is saying "I know that God is." Nobody knows that God is.

Indeed, that's pretty much the root of most of the types of arguments here, including a strong angle on this one in particular. :p the only difference is that "God Is" is NOT defining him. just the fact that he's there (which is a matter of Faith.)

And you know this, how? personal experience, Research and prayer.

That truth bit is somewhat in dispute. true, bad choice of words on my part. perhaps... "closer to the truth"? or "how it should be in my opinion"? yeah... that last one would fit better. :p

So you know all this about God, but with perceiving any of it. Interesting. I wouldn't say "know", (yes, I did kinda imply it, my bad) more of a feeling I got while praying.

The problem with saying "God is" is that one is saying "I know that God is." Nobody knows that God is.
true.

the only difference is that "God Is" is NOT defining him. just the fact that he's there (which is a matter of Faith.)

personal experience, Research and prayer.
Perception. So it's ok for you to make judgements on God based on your perceptions because your judgement is that he exists and is really fucking complicated.

true, bad choice of words on my part. perhaps... "closer to the truth"? or "how it should be in my opinion"? yeah... that last one would fit better. :p

I wouldn't say "know", (yes, I did kinda imply it, my bad) more of a feeling I got while praying.
Gotcha.

Perception. So it's ok for you to make judgements on God based on your perceptions because your judgement is that he exists and is really fucking complicated.

ROFL

Perception. So it's ok for you to make judgements on God based on your perceptions because your judgement is that he exists and is really fucking complicated.
well, put it this way,
I can say "Ifreann is a selfish inbred person who would rather watch porn than participate". perhaps I could back it up with evidence on this forum, but then that wouldn't be you (and for the record, I'm just pulling descriptions out of thin air.)

but the statement of 'Ifreann is'. would be more accurate. because on these forums, you are.

outside these forums? I don't know you. You could be the person who sits next to me on the bus every day.

it's not a judgement of who you are, it's just a statement that you are you.

just like 'God is'.

it's not any judgement of what He is or who He is or even what rules He has to follow. In fact, 'He' is also presumptous. God could be a She or Sexless.

edit: I'll admit, yes, my perception is that God cannot be defined. however, so far, that perception of God can stand up to more scrutiny than other perceptions of God.

well, put it this way,
I can say "Ifreann is a selfish inbred person who would rather watch porn than participate". perhaps I could back it up with evidence on this forum, but then that wouldn't be you (and for the record, I'm just pulling descriptions out of thin air.)

but the statement of 'Ifreann is'. would be more accurate. because on these forums, you are.

outside these forums? I don't know you. You could be the person who sits next to me on the bus every day.

it's not a judgement of who you are, it's just a statement that you are you.

just like 'God is'.

it's not any judgement of what He is or who He is or even what rules He has to follow. In fact, 'He' is also presumptous. God could be a She or Sexless.

edit: I'll admit, yes, my perception is that God cannot be defined. however, so far, that perception of God can stand up to more scrutiny than other perceptions of God.
My use of "is" comes from the first definition of the very "to be": if something is, then it exists. Thus "God is" means "God exists."

Are you saying that you know God exists? Or do you simply mean that the notion of God exists?

I think the evidence for that can be found throughout this forum. :D
Again, what was the test? to drive the Caanites out of the cities (which they did and they held) or the plains (which they did but could not hold.)
and did they (the men of Judah, Simeonites and others) hold the country? Could not holding the country still be 'delivering their lands to them'?
I suspect that your questions are answered, for some time now, by people interpreting the literature in ways the literature didn't dictate.
what did God say? that he promised them the land or that the Caanites would be driven completely out?It would seem there is a difference between what the book says God could do and what his PR made it out to be that he intended to do. And it's odd that the book uses, as well, instances of God repenting of his own acts.

the only difference is that "God Is" is NOT defining him.Betraying *anyone*'s faculty of understanding as being something they can't do is somewhat of a definition, you know.
just the fact that he's there (which is a matter of Faith.)Didn't Dragons Bay have a good quote about that?

Didn't Dragons Bay have a good quote about that?

About what?:confused:

About what?:confused:
Something you said about faith. Either this or the other thread i'd seen you on.
I said the Christian faith is about people, not about evidence.
That one. :)

They were pretty stupid for running out of fuel, but at least their prayers were answered.
Do you believe prayers get answered?

WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) — It seemed like an almost literal answer to their prayers. When two New Zealand pilots ran out of fuel in a microlight airplane they offered prayers and were able to make an emergency landing in a field — coming to rest right next to a sign reading, "Jesus is Lord."

I think this proves one thing: Jesus prayed for a plane.

My use of "is" comes from the first definition of the very "to be": if something is, then it exists. Thus "God is" means "God exists."

Are you saying that you know God exists? Or do you simply mean that the notion of God exists?I've had personal experience that proves to me that he exists. However, I admit that it is personal experiences thus not really evidence for anyone else. but yes, those personal experiences showed me He exists.

I suspect that your questions are answered, for some time now, by people interpreting the literature in ways the literature didn't dictate. Which doesn't answer the question. what was the test that you so admantly said God Failed at?
It would seem there is a difference between what the book says God could do and what his PR made it out to be that he intended to do. And it's odd that the book uses, as well, instances of God repenting of his own acts. yep it is interesting.
(EDIT: You did hear my theory about how the whole "7 days of Creation" came about right?) :p

Betraying *anyone*'s faculty of understanding as being something they can't do is somewhat of a definition, you know.except I'm not talking about their ability. but the fact that they are choosing one aspect and ignoring others from the same source.

how many times as arguments like these in quotes(") have been posted in other religous threads?

"God is all loving" yes he may seem to be, but that doesn't mean he's not vengeful nor won't punish those he deems needing punishment.

"God is a bastard". yes he can seem that way sometimes, but one cannot push aside other examples of His mercy.

"If God is ____ then why can't he ___" that calls for drawing conclusions on something people tend to have narrow vision of.

Didn't Dragons Bay have a good quote about that? he may have. but I'm doig this at work and inbetween calls, so I might've misinterpreted it or missed it altogether.

That one. :)
yep, I read that (And I agree, it's a good one DB)

I've also said that Faith is personal a LOOOOOONG time ago.

Prayers will always get answered.. its hardly ever going to be the answer you want or expect.

The week my father died, i prayed to God asking if I could see him again (with him living 200+ miles from me.) At the time i didn't know he had died.

I got my answer when my mum and her familly paid for me to go to his funeral. At the time I hated the answer but in a roundabout way, I got to say goodbye to my father and God's answer was one of I cant do everything for everyone but, listen and believe and i will always answer you.

Best examples in pop culture are in Bruce Almighty when Bruce auto answers yes to the prayers in the city he is living in.

And also in Futurama when Bender meets God and we get the phrase "If you do things right, no one will notice that you did anything at all" Or words to that effect.

Which doesn't answer the question. what was the test that you so admantly said God Failed at? Omnipotence, as qualified by the script itself saying, clearly, that he COULD NOT do something.
It's okay though, Dragons Bay got it already. :)

Omnipotence, as qualified by the script itself saying, clearly, that he COULD NOT do something.
It's okay though, Dragons Bay got it already. :)

ah, I saw that also, so I'll drop this part. *bows*

see what you got me doing now?


*bows*

ah, I saw that also, so I'll drop this part. *bows*

see what you got me doing now?


*bows*Nothing wrong with that at all! :)

Whoop, missed this part:
(EDIT: You did hear my theory about how the whole "7 days of Creation" came about right?)That was some time ago, wasn't it?
<.<
>.>
except I'm not talking about their ability. but the fact that they are choosing one aspect and ignoring others from the same source.If that was your intent, it surely didn't come across that way:
how are you supposed to use your instinct, reason, and sensibility to define something beyond your instinct, reason and sensibility?Posed as a question, but much inference.

That was some time ago, wasn't it? yep.

If that was your intent, it surely didn't come across that way:
Posed as a question, but much inference.

it wasn't my intent. I blame doing three things at once. but no, it wasn't supposed to be questioning their ability or desire to understand, just that they baised their understanding on only certain aspects of God while ignoring others.

That one. :)

Just don't quote it out of context! I'm watching you!!! :sniper::D

Prayers will always get answered.. its hardly ever going to be the answer you want or expect.

The week my father died, i prayed to God asking if I could see him again (with him living 200+ miles from me.) At the time i didn't know he had died.

I got my answer when my mum and her familly paid for me to go to his funeral. At the time I hated the answer but in a roundabout way, I got to say goodbye to my father and God's answer was one of I cant do everything for everyone but, listen and believe and i will always answer you.

Best examples in pop culture are in Bruce Almighty when Bruce auto answers yes to the prayers in the city he is living in.

And also in Futurama when Bender meets God and we get the phrase "If you do things right, no one will notice that you did anything at all" Or words to that effect.

That is exactly right. For instance, if God answered all my prayers, I'd sort of just forget about him, and enjoy my newfound wealth, love, etc. But because He answers the prayers in His own way, I am more thankful for what I have or don't have.

Just don't quote it out of context! I'm watching you!!! :sniper::D
Isn't that what a period is for? :D
BTW - would a "sig" be a contextless quote? Because i love those. Heartily.

That is exactly right. For instance, if God answered all my prayers, I'd sort of just forget about himHow.In.The.Fuck.Would.That.Happen ....?
Certainly your faith is worth more, or are you providing an example of the kind of shit he used to respond to in the OT?
I am more thankful for what I have or don't have.Sigworthy!

How.In.The.Fuck.Would.That.Happen ....?
Certainly your faith is worth more, or are you providing an example of the kind of shit he used to respond to in the OT?


Well, its like this. Say I come across a ton of money one day. Enough that I will never have to work again, right? Well, soon I buy all the fancy stuff I could ever want or need. Soon, I forget about my upbringing, where I didn't have those nice things. I would forget about the value of a hard days work, and frankly, I wouldn't appreciate anything, because if I got tired of it, I could buy something new and better. If God was just like that, an ATM machine or wish granter, I could see myself not being thankful for all I had before. I can give you a prime example of this happening to me. One day this past December, I prayed for finacial help. I had literally 10 dollars to my name, and I decided to put it in the offering, not as a sign to have God pay me back or anything, but because I thought it would be best to just give it to something good, and not waste that last 10 I had on something stupid, like soda or something. Well, I prayed for some sort of relief in support, and the next morning something told me to check my bank account, so I did and there was 3,000 dollars just sitting there, at my disposal. About a month later, I had another 3,000. So what did I do with that money? I did pay my bills and such, but the vast amount I had left over was spent on entertaining myself. I forgot about how I was just struggling not but a few weeks before, and here I was buying all this neat stuff. Now, why didn't I show thanks to God for what was given to me? Because I didn't need Him at that point, I thought. He'd given me what I wanted, and I would call on Him if I needed more. Well, here I am, with about 8 dollars left in my bank account, and my first check from my job comes in about 3 weeks. I have literally no food, minus a few packs of Ramen. If I had been thankful for that money, and saved it, I might not be in this problem. Bottom line is, when we get things we want, it usually ends up bad, because we take advantage of it. God provides, but won't give us something that will harm us, unless its a test/trial to show us that we are weak with out His guidance.

Well, its like this. Say I come across a ton of money one day. Enough that I will never have to work again, right? Well, soon I buy all the fancy stuff I could ever want or need. Soon, I forget about my upbringing, where I didn't have those nice things. I would forget about the value of a hard days work, and frankly, I wouldn't appreciate anything, because if I got tired of it, I could buy something new and better. If God was just like that, an ATM machine or wish granter, I could see myself not being thankful for all I had before. I can give you a prime example of this happening to me. One day this past December, I prayed for finacial help. I had literally 10 dollars to my name, and I decided to put it in the offering, not as a sign to have God pay me back or anything, but because I thought it would be best to just give it to something good, and not waste that last 10 I had on something stupid, like soda or something. Well, I prayed for some sort of relief in support, and the next morning something told me to check my bank account, so I did and there was 3,000 dollars just sitting there, at my disposal. About a month later, I had another 3,000. So what did I do with that money? I did pay my bills and such, but the vast amount I had left over was spent on entertaining myself. I forgot about how I was just struggling not but a few weeks before, and here I was buying all this neat stuff. Now, why didn't I show thanks to God for what was given to me? Because I didn't need Him at that point, I thought. He'd given me what I wanted, and I would call on Him if I needed more. Well, here I am, with about 8 dollars left in my bank account, and my first check from my job comes in about 3 weeks. I have literally no food, minus a few packs of Ramen. If I had been thankful for that money, and saved it, I might not be in this problem. Bottom line is, when we get things we want, it usually ends up bad, because we take advantage of it. God provides, but won't give us something that will harm us, unless its a test/trial to show us that we are weak with out His guidance.
I understand an idea of context, i simply find it hard to believe that someone like yourself (of which there are admittedly few) would come to the kind of conclusion that you had about forsaking anything like that.
And ... not everyone sees things this way, i don't think.

VERY CONFUSED!! :confused:

It's like this. The Christian god has really fantastic PR. If something good happens, it's attributed to him, if something bad happens, it's either blamed on someone else, or the god is excused with the line "god moves in mysterious ways" i.e. "don't question, it's good for you. Somehow"

It's like this. The Christian god has really fantastic PR. If something good happens, it's attributed to him, if something bad happens, it's either blamed on someone else, or the god is excused with the line "god moves in mysterious ways" i.e. "don't question, it's good for you. Somehow"

As a Christian I'd say this. If something "good" happens (defined as something I want happens), then yes, it is attributed to God.

If something "bad" happens (defined as something I didn't want happening; or something I want not coming; or something I don't want not going away), then it is still attributed to God. It is either I a. have a problem with my motives; b. it is not yet time; or c. what I want is not what is good.

"Good" and "bad" is really only a mask for personal desire. If you can see past that and really see "good" and "bad" for what they are then you'd understand that this is not a PR stunt, but a genuine desire to look after His children.

Of course prayers get answered. It's just that people often don't like the answers they get and choose to ignore them. When the answer is "No" or even "Ha! Fuck you!", it's still an answer...

lol or maybe its just "IM NOT LISTENING SO SHUT UP ALREADY" or Possibly "lalalalalalaalal god Blocks ears" or even better "lack of existence"

I'll use a quote from futurama to explain my basic belief about this.

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"

It's like this. The Christian god has really fantastic PR. If something good happens, it's attributed to him, if something bad happens, it's either blamed on someone else, or the god is excused with the line "god moves in mysterious ways" i.e. "don't question, it's good for you. Somehow"Yeah, just like Bush and Faux"news"/Rove/DeLay/Snow/talkingpoints/christiansupportgroup/Cheney/
peoplesupposedly"speaking for the troops"/conservatives.

A very wise priest once taught me a good saying. "All prayers are answered by God. He answers them either yes, no, or maybe."

To me it makes a lot of sense when it comes to prayer. According to just about every variant of Christianity, God has a plan for the world. Humans, with free will, may have their own plans that clash with God's plan. Should we pray for something in our plans that clashes with God's, or for something trivial that we probably shouldn't be praying for in the first place, of course God's going to answer that prayer "no". Why should God worry about getting a 6 year old a new action figure?

With the big stuff, it's more complicated, of course, and it takes a lot of thought, reflection, and peeled eyes to be able to find an answer to our more serious prayers, but some sort of answer will come, whether we like it or not.

To me it makes a lot of sense when it comes to prayer. According to just about every variant of Christianity, God has a plan for the world. Humans, with free will, may have their own plans that clash with God's plan.

Which means that obeying God is betraying humanity.

TO GITMO WITH YOU YOU FILTHY PIECE OF FREEDOM HATING SCUM ! ;)

Free will > predestination. If we succeed, let it be by our own hand. If we fail, noone to blame but ourselves.

Free will > predestination. If we succeed, let it be by our own hand. If we fail, noone to blame but ourselves.
Pure as we begin
Move by will alone.
So anyone heard it backwards?