NationStates Jolt Archive

I was sitting yesterday afternoon at a plaza very close to the office, drinking a chai tea and an old lady came and asked me for change. I gave her some. When I went back to the office, on the way, a man asked me for change too. I told him I was all out. I kept on walking and saw the Sisters of Mercy, a nunnery that´s close to where I work, taking care of this man that lives on the streets surrounding Parliament and that has a bad case of elephantitis on his legs.

On the way to work, 3 homeless people. When I left the office last night to meet some friends at a ¨taverna¨ for a few glasses of wine, I saw a man, wearing rags, asking for change at the intersection contiguous to the ¨taverna¨. When I left the ¨taverna¨, I saw a Madrilian attraction and I felt sad: two ¨okupa¨ girls totting around their pet rats.

Okupas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squatting) in Spain are these young people that take to live in the streets, dress excentrically and occupy by force abandoned houses and buildings. Although I´m giving you the name by which they´re known in my country, they´re not a problem or situation only of Spain. Okupas can be found in Germany, Italy and England. The English term is ¨squatter¨.

That made me think that the raise in homeless people here in Spain has skyrocketed in the past few years. And I was wondering, NSG, are any of you seeing the same thing happening back home? Has there, indeed, been a raise in people living in the streets in some countries like the US, Europe and other countries?

the police here tend to run the homeless out of the cities and the country people tend to make them disappear. so no idea if there are more homeless or not.

the police here tend to run the homeless out of the cities and the country people tend to make them disappear.

Ahh, yes, and use their clothes to make quilts.

I have no idea.

Most homeless people are in the cities. And I don't go to the cities often.

I wouldn't say there's been a significant increase...one new woman, but she replaces one who died.

The area I'm in is also quite unique...we're a student and immigrant neighborhood. We get very attached to our homeless. When Mr. Butch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Butch) died, a collection was taken up by nearly every local business, and a parade in his honor closed down the major street in the area. We tend to get into long drunken conversations with the local homeless, and often give what we can, be it change or a beer.

Then again, not many other areas have a homeless mute who dresses like a ninja, or a giant black man with dreds who wears a leather jacket that, in red white and blue, says "Mr. Butch", and sits around talking philosophy with anyone who will listen, only to then rock out on his guitar for a few hours.

Actually, I was working the day of the parade, and one of my customers asked what it was for. I told them one of the locals died, to which she exclaimed "Not Mr. Butch!? He was here when I lived out here!". This woman was in her 30's

Oh noes, they are forcefully occupying abandoned houses. Just who do you force out of a house that is abandoned...besides mice.

Squatters need to get a job and buy land like every other civilized being.

Squatters need to get a job and buy land like every other civilized being.

Difficult to get a job when you don't have anyplace to be contacted or shower or a decent outfit to wear. Not many people would hire someone who is unhygenic when there are plenty of applicants who are.

Squatters need to get a job and buy land like every other civilized being.

Why can't they just say in abandoned buildings? No one else is using them. I homeless people, I find them clever and entertaining.

Squatters need to get a job and buy land like every other civilized being.
How can you get a job without a home? How can they buy land without money?
(PS: I got a hunch you're just being sarcastic here, forgive me if you are :P)

How can you get a job without a home? How can they buy land without money?
(PS: I got a hunch you're just being sarcastic here, forgive me if you are :P)

yup. All these homeless folk were once just ordinary folks walkin down the street one day when the Homeless Fairy showed up, pulled out his magic wand, bonked them on the head and PWANG! - they were homeless.
Homelessness is NEVER a concenquence of stupid decisions. Never. In fact, concenquences in general are all bad. We should make them illegal.

yup. All these homeless folk were just walkin down the street one day when the Homeless Fairy showed up, pulled out his magic wand, bonked them on the head and PWANG! - they were homeless.
Homelessness is NEVER a concenquence of stupid decisions. Never. In fact, concenquences in general are all bad. We should make them illegal.

And clearly, no one deserves a chance to make their lives better, despite their previous mistakes. If they can't find a job, they clearly have no right to shelter in an abandoned building.

Clearly, mental illness could never play into it, despite the fact that the number of homeless mysteriously exploded as the feds closed state mental facilities.

Yes, there are, and should be, consequences for previous choices. This does not mean that these people should be left to die, by being kicked out of abandoned buildings or by being barred, through various means, from getting jobs that would permit them to get legitimate housing.

And clearly, no one deserves a chance to make their lives better, despite their previous mistakes. If they can't find a job, they clearly have no right to shelter in an abandoned building.

Clearly, mental illness could never play into it, despite the fact that the number of homeless mysteriously exploded as the feds closed state mental facilities.

Yes, there are, and should be, consequences for previous choices. This does not mean that these people should be left to die, by being kicked out of abandoned buildings or by being barred, through various means, from getting jobs that would permit them to get legitimate housing.
if all the people were really "left to die" then there really wouldn't be a homeless problem - would there. Opportunities to avoid/escape exist in substantial abundance for right-minded folks.
The only point you have are the mentally ill. I say scientific experements for the lot of em. (yes - kidding. Monty python style)

Whatever needs to be done with homeless people, is a problem each government will deal with accordingly. Hopefully not carrying out experiments or killing them. They´re people. That´s not what the OP was asking.

if all the people were really "left to die" then there really wouldn't be a homeless problem - would there. Opportunities to avoid/escape exist in substantial abundance for right-minded folks.
The only point you have are the mentally ill. I say scientific experements for the lot of em. (yes - kidding. Monty python style)

So your point is that all homeless are either mentally ill or not "right-minded".

Hey, wait a minute, we went through this on the "Are people homeless because of choice or fate" thread. Though not the actual wording, I would like to stay away from that train wreck if possible.

*flees*

if all the people were really "left to die" then there really wouldn't be a homeless problem - would there. Opportunities to avoid/escape exist in substantial abundance for right-minded folks.
The only point you have are the mentally ill. I say scientific experements for the lot of em. (yes - kidding. Monty python style)

Assuming the rest is jest, I'll just respond to the bold.

Yes, opportunities do exist to avoid becoming homeless much of the time (note: not always. There are many extenuating circumstances including, but not limited to, mental illness, physical disability, and physical illness). But there are rarely options (at least feasible options) to escape.

How can you get a job without a home? How can they buy land without money?
(PS: I got a hunch you're just being sarcastic here, forgive me if you are :P)

You don't know him very well, do you?

I dunno, whe are quite proud of our social system, any homeless people live in teh cities which I avoid at all cost (not because of teh homeless, I just like oxygen)

I know unemployment in the U.S. has gone up a bit in the past few years and that usually has a correllation with homless-ness but where I'm at, our homeless people are pretty clean, most of the time anyway.

It's kinda hard to tell the difference between someone who is homeless and someone who's just damn lazy sometimes.

Oh, we have our fair share of nut-job homeless people but a fairly decent shelter system also.

yup. All these homeless folk were once just ordinary folks walkin down the street one day when the Homeless Fairy showed up, pulled out his magic wand, bonked them on the head and PWANG! - they were homeless.
Homelessness is NEVER a concenquence of stupid decisions. Never. In fact, concenquences in general are all bad. We should make them illegal.

Decisions like being laid off or loosing your job because you became too sick to work?

Pwned

Squatters need to get a job and buy land like every other civilized being.

Agreed.

Incidentally, is elephantitis a disease? :D

Incidentally, is elephantitis a disease? :D

You are kidding right?

You are kidding right?

Nope. Sounds bloody hilarious though. Does it entail uncontrollably growing a trunk and big ears? Indeed, are there African and Asian strains?

Nope. Sounds bloody hilarious though. Does it entail uncontrollably growing a trunk and big ears? Indeed, are there African and Asian strains?

Sounds like the Monty Python "Elephantoplasty" skit.

Nope. Sounds bloody hilarious though. Does it entail uncontrollably growing a trunk and big ears? Indeed, are there African and Asian strains?

Elephantitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantiasis)

Yes, it is a disease and hardly a laughing matter.

Agreed.

Incidentally, is elephantitis a disease? :D

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&q=elephantitis&btnG=Google+Search

Google is your friend. It can keep you from saying things that make you look stupid.

It could just be because of the change in the weather; since a lot of homeless people aren't homeless 100% of the time, they might decide to do so when the weather improves to save what little money they have for the harsher parts of the year.

It could just be because of the change in the weather; since a lot of homeless people aren't homeless 100% of the time, they might decide to do so when the weather improves to save what little money they have for the harsher parts of the year.

Ahh, you do have a point. I forgot about that. I used to volunteer at a homeless shelter and it was largely funded by donations but every once in a while we would ask for a small amount of money. Especially from some of the long term individuals.

But, when the weather was nice, we tended to see a LOT fewer people at the shelter.

Decisions like being laid off or loosing your job because you became too sick to work?

OIC. So your theory is that all homeless are just people who ran out of sick days...

OIC. So your theory is that all homeless are just people who ran out of sick days...

Unlike you I don't have a theory about ALL homeless people. I do know that when you're living pay check to pay check loosing your job due to circumstances beyond your control can put you out on the street.

OIC. So your theory is that all homeless are just people who ran out of sick days...

Did he say "all"? Didn't think so.

No, not everyone uses blanket statements, which will, inherently, be wrong. Some have mental illness. Some have had severe medical problems that lost them their jobs. Some lost their housing because of medical bills that then, in turn, led to a loss of their job. Some come under the weight of heavy debt, as seen in this recent credit crunch. Some made bad choices involving drugs, alcohol, etc. Some have a nice combination of some or many of the above. And some even have problems that I haven't mentioned here.



As for the thread topic, I hadn't considered the weather, but it does make sense. Around here, winters are very brutal...we tend to find alot of our homeless in bank lobbies around that time, as well as more sleeping under the heating vents with a setup of umbrellas or blankets. Summer, they tend to be out front of the Store 24's more often

As for the thread topic, I hadn't considered the weather, but it does make sense. Around here, winters are very brutal...we tend to find alot of our homeless in bank lobbies around that time, as well as more sleeping under the heating vents with a setup of umbrellas or blankets. Summer, they tend to be out front of the Store 24's more often

Totally off any resemblance of a topic, what's a "Store 24?" Where, might these be?

Honest

Totally off any resemblance of a topic, what's a "Store 24?" Where, might these be?

Honest

sorry...Store-24 is a convenience store...similar to 7-11, Tedeschis, kwik-e-mart type thing

Ahh, thank you. Learn something new everyday. :)

It would be a "rise" in homeless people.

Saying it's an "alarming raise" sounds like homeless people got a big pay raise. :p Or maybe that's just me.

It would be a "rise" in homeless people.

Saying it's an "alarming raise" sounds like homeless people got a big pay raise. :p Or maybe that's just me.

Sorry for the horrible typo on the topic.

Sorry for the horrible typo on the topic.

Don't apologize, it was kinda funny.

Homeless isn't, really. I would say it must be the case that there will be a rise in homeless people on the streets. Population is going up, there's always gonna be a percentage of that population homeless. While city-building is a slower process. It's all called "overpopulation" but it's really "underdevelopment."

well
Many believe that people on welfare could find work if they were determined to do so. Yet these views are out of line with the realities of poverty. About a quarter of those living in poverty in the UK are in work anyway, but earn little to bring them over the poverty threshold. Of the remainder the majority are children under fourteen, those aged sixty-five and over and the ill or disabled. In spite of popular views about the high level of welfare cheating, fewer than 1 per cent of welfare applications involve fraudulent claims- much lower than is the case for income tax returns, where it is estimated that more than 10 per cent of tax is lost through misreporting or evasion.
Reducing poverty is not a matter of changing individual outlooks, but requires policy measures aimed at distributing income and resources more equally throughout society. Child care subsidies, a minimum hourly wage and guaranteed income levels for families are examples of policy measures that have sought to redress persistent social inequalities.
American sociologist William Julius argues 'when work disappears: The world of the New Urban Poor (1996), that persistent urban poverty stems primarily from the structural transformation of the inner-city economy. The decline of manufacturing industries, the 'suburbanisation' of employment and the rise of a low-wage service sector have dramatically reduced the number of jobs available for those immediately leaving education that pay wages sufficient to support a family. The high rate of joblessness resulting from economic shifts has led to a shrinking pool of 'marriageable' men (those financially able to support a family). Thus, marriage has become less attractive to poor women, the number of children born out of wedlock has increased and female headed families have proliferated. New generations of children are born into poverty, and the vicious cycle is perpetuated. Wilson argues that black Americans suffer disproportionally because of past discrimination and because they are concentrated in locations and occupations particularly affected by economic restructuring.

However it should be noted a widely held view of poverty is that it is a permanent condition. yet being poor does not necessarily mean being mired in poverty. A substantial proportion of people in poverty at any one time have either enjoyed superior conditions of life previously or can be expected to climb out of poverty at some time in the future. Recent research has revealed a significant amount of mobility into and out of poverty: a surprising number of people are successful in escaping poverty, and at the same time a larger number than previously realized live in poverty at some point during their lives.
Even individuals in severely disadvantaged positions can seize on opportunities to better their positions; the power of human agency to bring about change should not be underestimated. Social policy can play an important role in maximising the action of potential disadvantaged individuals and communities.

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&q=elephantitis&btnG=Google+Search

Google is your friend. It can keep you from saying things that make you look stupid.

It's more that I just don't care. Any disease named "elephantitis" should only really expect to elicit mirth.

Squatters need to get a job and buy land like every other civilized being.

Why? I squatted before. It was nice and warm in the middle of the winter. I boarded up their broken windows and everything for them.

Don't apologize, it was kinda funny.

Homeless isn't, really. I would say it must be the case that there will be a rise in homeless people on the streets. Population is going up, there's always gonna be a percentage of that population homeless. While city-building is a slower process. It's all called "overpopulation" but it's really "underdevelopment."

:p

I don´t know why I haven´t noticed them before the day before yesterday. It´s like they suddenly popped up in every corner and I know that´s not the case. The homeless in Madrid didn´t just sprung up like weeds. Maybe what you pose is one of the explanations.

I was sitting yesterday afternoon at a plaza very close to the office, drinking a chai tea and an old lady came and asked me for change. I gave her some. When I went back to the office, on the way, a man asked me for change too. I told him I was all out. I kept on walking and saw the Sisters of Mercy, a nunnery that´s close to where I work, taking care of this man that lives on the streets surrounding Parliament and that has a bad case of elephantitis on his legs.

Elephantiasis is a very disfiguring disease caused by insect-borne parasites.

I'm not saying the man didn't have Ele-whatsit, but just from looking you might have mistaken his condition. Leg swelling can be caused by kidney failure (likely in an aging alcoholic) or failure of valves in the blood system (like varicose veins, more about age.)

On the way to work, 3 homeless people. When I left the office last night to meet some friends at a ¨taverna¨ for a few glasses of wine, I saw a man, wearing rags, asking for change at the intersection contiguous to the ¨taverna¨. When I left the ¨taverna¨, I saw a Madrilian attraction and I felt sad: two ¨okupa¨ girls totting around their pet rats.

Okupas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squatting) in Spain are these young people that take to live in the streets, dress excentrically and occupy by force abandoned houses and buildings. Although I´m giving you the name by which they´re known in my country, they´re not a problem or situation only of Spain. Okupas can be found in Germany, Italy and England. The English term is ¨squatter¨.

They aren't a problem at all. Squatting is a quite rational response to homelessness.

Some will say that squatting is theft. It isn't. Theft only applies if the owner of the property is deprived of the use of it. If the squatters don't damage the property and are prepared to leave when the owner has a use for the property (often it's just bought for some future time when the land is worth enough to sell, the building may even be demolished at that time) then it harms no-one.

If the quote in my sig bugs you, TG me and I'm happy to take it out. I know you didn't mean "SS" that way ... just like CTOAN wasn't really advising another poster to pimp out their flatmate. :)

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Click Stand;13716967']Oh noes, they are forcefully occupying abandoned houses. Just who do you force out of a house that is abandoned...besides mice.

NnT probably means "they break in." Damn right they do, but any squatter with half a brain secures their new squat.

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Why can't they just say in abandoned buildings? No one else is using them. I like homeless people, I find them clever and entertaining.

Yay!

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And clearly, no one deserves a chance to make their lives better, despite their previous mistakes. If they can't find a job, they clearly have no right to shelter in an abandoned building.

Having secured a squat, squatters who have no problems other than homelessness can be reasonably expected to get a job.

They can wash, keep a wardrobe, and have a home address (at least in my experience here, the postal worker doesn't care if you own rent or squat, they'll put mail in your box.) In some jurisdictions, you can even have a landline installed in a squat (electricity and gas too,) you just tell them you're renting.

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I know unemployment in the U.S. has gone up a bit in the past few years and that usually has a correllation with homless-ness but where I'm at, our homeless people are pretty clean, most of the time anyway.

It's kinda hard to tell the difference between someone who is homeless and someone who's just damn lazy sometimes.

You can be damn lazy and not homeless. Like me. :)

Oh, we have our fair share of nut-job homeless people but a fairly decent shelter system also.

Kudos on being the first to mention shelters. Also, public housing doesn't depend on having a home address already (of course.)

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Agreed.


So, what was YOUR job again ?

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well
[snip]

You make good points but ... whoa! Wall of text! You know better than that ...

============

Why? I squatted before. It was nice and warm in the middle of the winter. I boarded up their broken windows and everything for them.

Yay.

I get the shits with bad squatters. It's like the difference between renters and owners, but carried to a further extreme. If you're liable to be tossed out without warning there isn't much reason to look after the place. But that's no reason to wreck it.

Good squatters are a boon, they keep vandals out, keep rodents at bay (rodents do serious damage when there's nothing else to eat but the woodwork) and will usually do essential maintenance like not letting a leaking roof rot the whole place.

When I squatted, I always made improvements. You can get paint, carpets and building timber which people just throw away, and make the place nice with them.

I repeat: squatters can be a boon, even if many of them are destructive.

Elephantiasis is a very disfiguring disease caused by insect-borne parasites.

<snip>

If the quote in my sig bugs you, TG me and I'm happy to take it out. I know you didn't mean "SS" that way ... just like CTOAN wasn't really advising another poster to pimp out their flatmate. :)

ROFLMAO!

No worries, I don´t mind you quoting me on your sig. As long as you know I didn´t meant the ¨SS Gestapo¨, it´s all good.

On the way to work, 3 homeless people. When I left the office last night to meet some friends at a ¨taverna¨ for a few glasses of wine, I saw a man, wearing rags, asking for change at the intersection contiguous to the ¨taverna¨. When I left the ¨taverna¨, I saw a Madrilian attraction and I felt sad: two ¨okupa¨ girls totting around their pet rats.


I don't think it's just there. I've been seeing a lot more of it here too. Also in London around the food courts in the train stations you see people taking left overs from empty tables, and people going through the bins.

Our society is a beacon of civilisation.

I don't think it's just there. I've been seeing a lot more of it here too. Also in London around the food courts in the train stations you see people taking left overs from empty tables, and people going through the bins.

Our society is a beacon of civilisation.

Yes... I know what you mean. A year ago I went to Puerto Rico to visit my maternal grandparents and I saw the same thing happening there. There were a lot of people searching the trash cans, asking for change at stop lights and entering restaurants to peddle for food and money.

It gets to be depressing...

Yes... I know what you mean. A year ago I went to Puerto Rico to visit my maternal grandparents and I saw the same thing happening there. There were a lot of people searching the trash cans, asking for change at stop lights and entering restaurants to peddle for food and money.

It gets to be depressing...

10-15 years ago here, most people you'd see on the streets would be aged 40-50-60. Then came the 'Economic boom' and you started seeing late teens/early 20's and up. It's the rise in house and rent prices, apparently.

Did he say "all"? Didn't think so.

Unlike you I don't have a theory about ALL homeless people. I do know that when you're living pay check to pay check loosing your job due to circumstances beyond your control can put you out on the street.

Good. Glad we got that sorted. Now if only you could demonstrate the same observation that you falsely claim I missed then we could have a real conversation.

You see, children, I was responding to the narrow descriptions and presumptions made by other persons. It was not me who made those universal claim. It's not that hard, please try to keep up.



No, not everyone uses blanket statements, which will, inherently, be wrong. Some have mental illness. Some have had severe medical problems that lost them their jobs. Some lost their housing because of medical bills that then, in turn, led to a loss of their job. Some come under the weight of heavy debt, as seen in this recent credit crunch. Some made bad choices involving drugs, alcohol, etc. Some have a nice combination of some or many of the above. And some even have problems that I haven't mentioned here.


You include many, but not all. Two primary sources you neglect (which can be in conjunction with others) are a poor work ethic and a poor selection in mate.

One major problem in the States is the number of mentally ill who are homeless (about 1 in 6 homeless are mentally ill) Mental health services are dismal. There also is an ethical quandary regarding mental health - where is the line between providing needed mental health treatment and false imprisonment?

Also there is a substantial flaw in the definition of homelessness. Most of us consider homeless to mean living on the streets. The definitions used in various studies has been much broader to even include those who reside in trailer parks! The results are flawed data regarding real street-dwellers.

The primary solution to homelessness seems obvious to me. If one looks at the demographics of the homeless in the US you would see that asians are under-represented and blacks over-represented. If you rightly dismisses the possibility that asians are somehow genetically superior, then the answer would have to be cultural and social.

Rather than apply expensive band aids (which often are no better than enablers) The place to start would be to deconstruct black and asian cultures, identify the key differences which affect homelessness, then implement a program designed to inject these values universally into your nations culture (black, white, asian or otherwise)

Reinventing the wheel is expensive, inefficient and stupid, yet that does not stop people from trying it anyway. Mental health needs improvement, there needs to be more and better jobs for unskilled labor, distressed women need help, but without addressing the cultural/social component there will be no meaningful change in homelessness ever.

10-15 years ago here, most people you'd see on the streets would be aged 40-50-60. Then came the 'Economic boom' and you started seeing late teens/early 20's and up. It's the rise in house and rent prices, apparently.

It´s the rise in everything, it seems.

Difficult to get a job when you don't have anyplace to be contacted or shower or a decent outfit to wear. Not many people would hire someone who is unhygenic when there are plenty of applicants who are.
That's nobody's fault but their own. Homelessness is usually a result of making the wrong choices, giving up or just simply not caring. In any event, they shouldn't be allowed to bum out all around town and make the place disgusting, filthy, smelly and unsafe. I think like this as a result of knowing what Venice Beach, California is like.
Why can't they just say in abandoned buildings? No one else is using them. I homeless people, I find them clever and entertaining.
Because homeless people make an area unsafe, dirty, filthy and smelly.
yup. All these homeless folk were once just ordinary folks walkin down the street one day when the Homeless Fairy showed up, pulled out his magic wand, bonked them on the head and PWANG! - they were homeless.
Exactly.
How can you get a job without a home? How can they buy land without money?
They should have thought of that before they landed themselves on the streets.

That's nobody's fault but their own. Homelessness is usually a result of making the wrong choices, giving up or just simply not caring. In any event, they shouldn't be allowed to bum out all around town and make the place disgusting, filthy, smelly and unsafe. I think like this as a result of knowing what Venice Beach, California is like.

Because homeless people make an area unsafe, dirty, filthy and smelly.

Exactly.

They should have thought of that before they landed themselves on the streets.


I'd like to point to others that the above is probably not sarcasm.

<snip talking to other folks, no offence meant>

You make good points but ... whoa! Wall of text! You know better than that ...

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.

:D
just trying to keep my hand in, i've got more info if required.

Although less than 5% of the population suffers from severe mental illness, they comprise an estimated 20-40% of the homeless population.
Mentally ill people who are homeless are often arrested for some type of nuisance crime yet those who receive comprehensive community mental health treatment stay in such treatment, remain safely housed, and have an incarceration or homeless rate of less than 2%.
If we don’t fund mental health care programs that are effective at treating the homeless and getting them off the streets we will be wasting precious redevelopment dollars that help our business community grow and our local economy prosper.
Ask your community to invest in itself by investing in mental health treatment.