NationStates Jolt Archive

This is simply me thinking thoughtfully allowed. Take it with a grain of salt.

There has been a lot of threads lately about American forgein relations and it inevitablly (if it didnt start off this way) turns into a thread about how the world views the states. My response has pretty much remained the same: We are all people, and to concern oneself with nationality is idiotic, especially in a social setting. But, I felt like I need to address more in depth how I feel about these topics, and so I shall address them all in one big topic. The OP is not a question, it is a statement. This is my belief as to why the world feels the way it does. I should note that any critisms and observations made stem from both my interaction on this and other international forums, as well as the immigrants and students on visas I encounter in my daily life.

First, however, I want to discuss that various critisms and the accompanying double standards that inevitably follow. First, people complain about how America is a "bully" and about our aggressive foreign policy and apperant disgard for human rights. While it is appropraite to critisize this administration for its forgein policy blunders and its apperant disregard for human rights of any non-white individual, I would simply like to point out that America does not by any stretch of the imagination have the worst human rights track record, nor have any of the most devestating wars in human history been started by Americans. This leads us to people attacking America's history. The most amussing thing about how we apperantly have this terrible history is that the worst things we have done are simply hold overs from our Europian founders (such as extermination of the native peoples and slavery).

Secondly, there seems to be a prevailing belief among my comrades on this board (the my fellow leftists) that crisizing a culture is wrong, however they will happily critisize American culture in the next topic the enter. Example, some tribes in Africa practice cannibalism. I find this practice to be barbaric and abhorent. Yet, if I made a thread about this, I would be assailed with comments about my lack of respect for other cultures and their traditions. These same people however will often go on to then make the inevitable joke about how Americans eat a lot. This is part of our culture, yet it seems acceptable for forgeiners to mock us for it. I hope I do not need to spell this one out to anyone.

I have even heard that America has no culture of its own. This is a strange accusation, as we have our own food, our own traditions, our own language (the british will agree, what we speak and what you speak is not the same), our own art, our own literature, etc.

I would normally then address how Americans are just as bad in their lack of respect for any non-Western Judao culture, but if there is one thing this forum does consitantly well, its point out when Americans are acting like idiots, so I wont go further into detail on this.

American media also has a tendency to get attacked and ripped down by forgeiners. Fair enough, media is cultural, and most American media is garbage. However, the people who attack American media will then go on make a reference to The Simpsons, The Colbert Report, Star Wars, etc in the very next sentence. I dont think I should have to point out that one cannot slam all American media in one breath while praising it and referencing it in the next without looking like a fool.

Americans seem to be considered arrogant. When asked where people get this idea from, they always have some amussing personal anicdote. That is all well and good, but it is not in your best interest to base your opinion on an entire group of millions of people just because you met 2 or 3 you didnt like. For example, I have met a few swedes and dealt with them on international forums. In my experiance, they all think very highly of themselves, and seem to be under the impression that just by virtue of being born on a plot of dirt between Norway and Finland that their excrement smells of roses. But, if I went around saying how all people from Sweden were arrogant, insufferable pricks, I would rightly be told I was prejudice and should just shut up. It is also intersting to note that every thread about America's relation with the rest of the world inevitablly turns into a Euro-nationalist clusterfuck, as if the only thing keeping Europe from turning in on itself like does and always has done throughout history is the united hatred they have towards the states. Again, Americans are no better, but Americans are called on this attitude more so then others.

Do not mistake my critisms here for a defense of America. As I have said, I dont believe in the virtues of a people of a nation being exclusive to that nation, because people are essentially the same, no matter where they live or what they speak or whom they prey to. The point of this is merely to address what I feel is an atrocious double standard. The critisims of America are warrented and relevent 90% of the time. However, one should not forget that no nation is perfect. America is not a shining city on a hill and a paragon of moral virtue that certian US nationalists would have you believe, but neither is it a pit of morally depraved sociopathic lunatics that the international community wishes to portray it as at times. It is no better or worse then any other nation on the globe, and to believe otherwise (on either side) is simply delusional and buying into propaganda.

This leads me to why I believe America is hated throughout the world, and it is simple. We are top dog right now. Every nation will go to great lengths to persue and secure its interests, but America currently has the ability to go farther then the rest, because it is the super power. This is why America is seen as the "world policemen", because we have the might to persue our interests. Do not mistake this for me defending a "might makes right" mentality, this is simply me stating the way world politics work, and everyone who is grounded in reality knows this.

I also do not wish to give off the impression that I think other nations our jelous of the US. Im sure they are not. However, the people of those nations have either forgettn what it is like when you are top dog, or have never been a key player in world politics. Mark my words, people are the same everywhere, and because of that, if your nation ever is at the top of the food chain, do not delude yourself into believing it wont act in exactly the same way. The British did. The French did. The Spanish did. To think that your nation wont be the same is to be naive and foolish.

My belief then is that America is only hated because we are irritating, which I feel most would agree with. However, the minute we are no longer on top, rest assured that your hatred for America will most likely evaporate quickly and be directed towards whoever is on top now. And chances are that Americans will join their Europian brothers and allies (because China will probably be the next super power) in critisizing and hating the next super power. And chances are, Americans will do exactly what forgeiners are doing now to us, hold double standards.

As an amussing side note, I notice the people who are the least critical of America (both in my real life experiance and my experiance here) are the British. My theory for this is twofold: being founded by the British, we are very similiar people in values and views, and the British were the undisputed power of the world not too long ago, and so recognize that America is not doing anything abnormal or that they themselves didnt do.

It is worth noting that not every forgeiner on this board is guilty of the above critisims, nor is every forgeiner I know in real life. Sadly, the people who should read this most, the people who I hope will just think about this next time they start their eurocentric, nationalistic ravings, are the ones who are the least likely to read this or put any real thought into this, so sure of themselves are they in their own superiority, that they would never dream of listening to the advice and wisdom of an unwashed American.

This is simply me thinking thoughtfully allowed. Take it with a grain of salt.

There has been a lot of threads lately about American forgein relations and it inevitablly (if it didnt start off this way) turns into a thread about how the world views the states. My response has pretty much remained the same: We are all people, and to concern oneself with nationality is idiotic, especially in a social setting. But, I felt like I need to address more in depth how I feel about these topics, and so I shall address them all in one big topic. The OP is not a question, it is a statement. This is my belief as to why the world feels the way it does. I should note that any critisms and observations made stem from both my interaction on this and other international forums, as well as the immigrants and students on visas I encounter in my daily life.

First, however, I want to discuss that various critisms and the accompanying double standards that inevitably follow. First, people complain about how America is a "bully" and about our aggressive foreign policy and apperant disgard for human rights. While it is appropraite to critisize this administration for its forgein policy blunders and its apperant disregard for human rights of any non-white individual, I would simply like to point out that America does not by any stretch of the imagination have the worst human rights track record, nor have any of the most devestating wars in human history been started by Americans. This leads us to people attacking America's history. The most amussing thing about how we apperantly have this terrible history is that the worst things we have done are simply hold overs from our Europian founders (such as extermination of the native peoples and slavery).

Secondly, there seems to be a prevailing belief among my comrades on this board (the my fellow leftists) that crisizing a culture is wrong, however they will happily critisize American culture in the next topic the enter. Example, some tribes in Africa practice cannibalism. I find this practice to be barbaric and abhorent. Yet, if I made a thread about this, I would be assailed with comments about my lack of respect for other cultures and their traditions. These same people however will often go on to then make the inevitable joke about how Americans eat a lot. This is part of our culture, yet it seems acceptable for forgeiners to mock us for it. I hope I do not need to spell this one out to anyone.

I have even heard that America has no culture of its own. This is a strange accusation, as we have our own food, our own traditions, our own language (the british will agree, what we speak and what you speak is not the same), our own art, our own literature, etc.

I would normally then address how Americans are just as bad in their lack of respect for any non-Western Judao culture, but if there is one thing this forum does consitantly well, its point out when Americans are acting like idiots, so I wont go further into detail on this.

American media also has a tendency to get attacked and ripped down by forgeiners. Fair enough, media is cultural, and most American media is garbage. However, the people who attack American media will then go on make a reference to The Simpsons, The Colbert Report, Star Wars, etc in the very next sentence. I dont think I should have to point out that one cannot slam all American media in one breath while praising it and referencing it in the next without looking like a fool.

Americans seem to be considered arrogant. When asked where people get this idea from, they always have some amussing personal anicdote. That is all well and good, but it is not in your best interest to base your opinion on an entire group of millions of people just because you met 2 or 3 you didnt like. For example, I have met a few swedes and dealt with them on international forums. In my experiance, they all think very highly of themselves, and seem to be under the impression that just by virtue of being born on a plot of dirt between Norway and Finland that their excrement smells of roses. But, if I went around saying how all people from Sweden were arrogant, insufferable pricks, I would rightly be told I was prejudice and should just shut up. It is also intersting to note that every thread about America's relation with the rest of the world inevitablly turns into a Euro-nationalist clusterfuck, as if the only thing keeping Europe from turning in on itself like does and always has done throughout history is the united hatred they have towards the states. Again, Americans are no better, but Americans are called on this attitude more so then others.

Do not mistake my critisms here for a defense of America. As I have said, I dont believe in the virtues of a people of a nation being exclusive to that nation, because people are essentially the same, no matter where they live or what they speak or whom they prey to. The point of this is merely to address what I feel is an atrocious double standard. The critisims of America are warrented and relevent 90% of the time. However, one should not forget that no nation is perfect. America is not a shining city on a hill and a paragon of moral virtue that certian US nationalists would have you believe, but neither is it a pit of morally depraved sociopathic lunatics that the international community wishes to portray it as at times. It is no better or worse then any other nation on the globe, and to believe otherwise (on either side) is simply delusional and buying into propaganda.

This leads me to why I believe America is hated throughout the world, and it is simple. We are top dog right now. Every nation will go to great lengths to persue and secure its interests, but America currently has the ability to go farther then the rest, because it is the super power. This is why America is seen as the "world policemen", because we have the might to persue our interests. Do not mistake this for me defending a "might makes right" mentality, this is simply me stating the way world politics work, and everyone who is grounded in reality knows this.

I also do not wish to give off the impression that I think other nations our jelous of the US. Im sure they are not. However, the people of those nations have either forgettn what it is like when you are top dog, or have never been a key player in world politics. Mark my words, people are the same everywhere, and because of that, if your nation ever is at the top of the food chain, do not delude yourself into believing it wont act in exactly the same way. The British did. The French did. The Spanish did. To think that your nation wont be the same is to be naive and foolish.

My belief then is that America is only hated because we are irritating, which I feel most would agree with. However, the minute we are no longer on top, rest assured that your hatred for America will most likely evaporate quickly and be directed towards whoever is on top now. And chances are that Americans will join their Europian brothers and allies (because China will probably be the next super power) in critisizing and hating the next super power. And chances are, Americans will do exactly what forgeiners are doing now to us, hold double standards.

As an amussing side note, I notice the people who are the least critical of America (both in my real life experiance and my experiance here) are the British. My theory for this is twofold: being founded by the British, we are very similiar people in values and views, and the British were the undisputed power of the world not too long ago, and so recognize that America is not doing anything abnormal or that they themselves didnt do.

It is worth noting that not every forgeiner on this board is guilty of the above critisims, nor is every forgeiner I know in real life. Sadly, the people who should read this most, the people who I hope will just think about this next time they start their eurocentric, nationalistic ravings, are the ones who are the least likely to read this or put any real thought into this, so sure of themselves are they in their own superiority, that they would never dream of listening to the advice and wisdom of an unwashed American.

tl;dr

tl;dr

Damn you, I put a lot of thought into that! :p

tl;dr. I'm sure it was chock full of interesting thoughts I've heard before, but let me give you this.

They hate us because we're beautiful.

(i skimmed a bit. When people attack the American media, they probably mean news outlets, not our comedy.)

This whole post is one massive, massive strawman replete with references to the school of thought that 'since we're not the worst at something you can't criticise us so much'.

As an American, I mainly hate American hypocricy.

I hate the way Americans love to pretend this is the "land of the free," while proudly refusing equal rights under the law to the majority of citizens. I hate the way I was taught America is a proud defender of liberty and justice, while we now start wars of aggression and torture civilians. I hate how America is supposed to have a government of, for, and by the people, yet we actually have a tiny minority of superrich jackasses running everything.

I love the ideal of America. I love America In Theory. But I'm not terribly fond of my country at the moment, and I'm certainly not proud of my government.

This whole post is one massive, massive strawman replete with references to the school of thought that 'since we're not the worst at something you can't criticise us so much'.

Umm, I dont even think you know what a strawman is, because these are all critisms that Ive actually heard and are very popular, especially on these forums.

Also, I never said you couldnt critisize the US. In fact, I said the opposite, I said 90% of the time is warrented.


You should have at least had the decency to post tl:dr like everyone else so far, because you obviously didnt read it and now you just look like an idiot.

I love America In Theory.

aww, come on baby, you know i hypothetically love you. sweden means nothing compared to what you and i could technically have.

There has been a lot of threads lately about American forgein relations ....


Lately...? :confused:

Way to go with the ad hominems, but I did read it. Perhaps you're the one who should read up on what strawmen arguments are. It's like you gathered up comments from as many different message boards as you could, dumped them together, and refuted them with nothing more than comparisons without sources.

You talk about anectdotal evidence in your post from detractors, but that's all you supply as well.

If in fact they are warranted so much of the time, why do you feel the need to defend?

Way to go with the ad hominems, but I did read it. Perhaps you're the one who should read up on what strawmen arguments are. It's like you gathered up comments from as many different message boards as you could, dumped them together, and refuted them with nothing more than comparisons without sources.


How cute. Another new poster who thinks that just by naming logical fallacies he looks smart. Youre new here, so I dont expect you to know what the critisims of America are on these boards. So maybe you should stop pretending like you do.

You talk about anectdotal evidence in your post from detractors, but that's all you supply as well.

Not really. I talk about what I hear, and then talk about how sometimes its not really fair to make these attacks. My one bit of anectdotal evidence is meant to show how foolish anectdotal evidence is.

If in fact they are warranted so much of the time, why do you feel the need to defend?

Im not really defending America, more attacking nationalism. Again, you didnt seem to have read it. But if you did, you didnt comprehend it.

All I know is that my exposure to Fass has informed all of my opinions about Swedes. ;)

the fact of the matter is that our foreign policy just blows....and if we have to be the number one country in the world, then we should set an example to others....however all this country seems to do is take one step forward and two backwards

the fact of the matter is that our foreign policy just blows....and if we have to be the number one country in the world, then we should set an example to others....however all this country seems to do is take one step forward and two backwards

I dont think the world needs an example set for it though. Thats more nationalism. To believe that we need to set an example for the rest of the poor, deprived world.

They hate us for our freedomz.

They hate us for our freedomz.

n our libertyz

Damn you, I put a lot of thought into that! :p

Actually I did read it, I just put tl;dr to be annoying because I didn't really see anything worthy of comment. I suppose if was less of an ass I could've just posted this: :D

the pollen count is insane today so tl;dr *currently hates the reality*

I could start by how you use "us" in the title which almost had me wonder why someone would hate little old me :(

I have even heard that America has no culture of its own. This is a strange accusation, as we have our own food, our own traditions, our own language (the british will agree, what we speak and what you speak is not the same), our own art, our own literature, etc.

As an amussing side note, I notice the people who are the least critical of America (both in my real life experiance and my experiance here) are the British. My theory for this is twofold: being founded by the British, we are very similiar people in values and views, and the British were the undisputed power of the world not too long ago, and so recognize that America is not doing anything abnormal or that they themselves didnt do.


1. America does have culture, but most of it is pretty rubbish, you have terrible literature (asides H.P Lovecraft), terrible music currently but you did have some great stuff in the 50s-80s, your food is just basically fried fat, your traditions are incredibly commercialised. The language you speak is English, not a different language, it is simply wrong English, the clue being in the name, the English should determine the English language.

2. I'm British and i still hate you, in fact from my experience the majority of England hates the US. We also have incredibly different values and views, England has vastly more developed youth, our children grow up considerably faster from my experience, we also have different ethnic groups to the US and our values and views are less heavily influenced by religion.

Yea, because people with lower post counts deserve less consideration. I've browsed the pages here, you can stick the condescending attitude, well, you know where.

As for your second point..wow. Just wow. Don't know what to say to that, but wow.

Your entire essay is America this, don't hate us for that, America that, why do you keep hating this.

Good luck trying to convince anyone to your side of the argument with that OP and your current attitude.

Yea, because people with lower post counts deserve less consideration. I've browsed the pages here, you can stick the condescending attitude, well, you know where.

As for your second point..wow. Just wow. Don't know what to say to that, but wow.

Your entire essay is America this, don't hate us for that, America that, why do you keep hating this.

Good luck trying to convince anyone to your side of the argument with that OP and your current attitude.

My my my, look who lost his haughty attitude once he got called on his BS.

1. America does have culture, but most of it is pretty rubbish, you have terrible literature (asides H.P Lovecraft), terrible music currently but you did have some great stuff in the 50s-80s, your food is just basically fried fat, your traditions are incredibly commercialised. The language you speak is English, not a different language, it is simply wrong English, the clue being in the name, the English should determine the English language.

2. I'm British and i still hate you, in fact from my experience the majority of England hates the US. We also have incredibly different values and views, England has vastly more developed youth, our children grow up considerably faster from my experience, we also have different ethnic groups to the US and our values and views are less heavily influenced by religion.



Thank you for demonstrating my point.

As an American, I mainly hate American hypocricy.

I hate the way Americans love to pretend this is the "land of the free," while proudly refusing equal rights under the law to the majority of citizens. I hate the way I was taught America is a proud defender of liberty and justice, while we now start wars of aggression and torture civilians. I hate how America is supposed to have a government of, for, and by the people, yet we actually have a tiny minority of superrich jackasses running everything.

I love the ideal of America. I love America In Theory. But I'm not terribly fond of my country at the moment, and I'm certainly not proud of my government.

We may not be perfect (even though we pretend to be), but we're a lot better than most places.

Yea, because people with lower post counts deserve less consideration.

that is 120% true though:confused:

We may not be perfect (even though we pretend to be), but we're a lot better than most places.

isn't that like smiling away when you see a frog in your tea because the next guy has seaman in his?

1. America does have culture, but most of it is pretty rubbish, you have terrible literature (asides H.P Lovecraft), terrible music currently but you did have some great stuff in the 50s-80s, your food is just basically fried fat, your traditions are incredibly commercialised. The language you speak is English, not a different language, it is simply wrong English, the clue being in the name, the English should determine the English language.

2. I'm British and i still hate you, in fact from my experience the majority of England hates the US. We also have incredibly different values and views, England has vastly more developed youth, our children grow up considerably faster from my experience, we also have different ethnic groups to the US and our values and views are less heavily influenced by religion.

KoL, you owe this nutter a favor. He demonstrated your point perfectly.

Coincidentally, I agree with your analysis, and salute you for your efforts, you articulated what I've been too lazy to write on these forums for ages.

2. I'm British and i still hate you, in fact from my experience the majority of England hates the US. We also have incredibly different values and views, England has vastly more developed youth, our children grow up considerably faster from my experience, we also have different ethnic groups to the US and our values and views are less heavily influenced by religion.

Hate is a very strong word and I don't believe the majority of England 'hates' the Unites States. I also don't believe that the majority of Britain hates the United States either.

the pollen count is insane today so tl;dr *currently hates the reality*

I could start by how you use "us" in the title which almost had me wonder why someone would hate little old me :(

He meant to write US:p

<snip>

Your OP can be surmized with this, but by all means, not completely understood:

Every nation has another nation to hate. That's how we all are.:p

Think of it as when you dislike a soccer or baseball team:

People from La Coruña have the Deportivo soccer team. People from Vigo have the Celta. They're both from Galicia, and yet, they dislike each other with a passion for what their respective teams represent.

The same principle could be applied to the dislike people feel for America, or for any other country for that matter.

KoL, you owe this nutter a favor. He demonstrated your point perfectly.

I know, I actually smiled when I read his post.

Your OP can be surmized with this, but by all means, not completely understood:

Every nation has another nation to hate. That's how we all are.:p

Think of it as when you dislike a soccer or baseball team:

People from La Coruña have the Deportivo soccer team. People from Vigo have the Celta. They're both from Galicia, and yet, they dislike each other with a passion for what their respective teams represent.

The same principle could be applied to the dislike people feel for America, or for any other country for that matter.

So, it's like every nation has another nation to hate, and they all hate America?:p

I know, I actually smiled when I read his post.

You may have done, but you really have not unvalidated my argument, if you have poor culture why should we appreciate it, criticism is necessary to help people improve.

He meant to write US:p

ah so its tardy grammar thats bringing all the hate!

Every nation has another nation to hate. That's how we all are.:p

but I hate everyone and being English have a damn good argument seeing as how we have defeated every army ever including the Zerg :p

This is simply me thinking thoughtfully allowed. Take it with a grain of salt.

How else? It's written by an American;)

There has been a lot of threads lately about American forgein relations and it inevitablly (if it didnt start off this way) turns into a thread about how the world views the states. My response has pretty much remained the same: We are all people, and to concern oneself with nationality is idiotic, especially in a social setting. But, I felt like I need to address more in depth how I feel about these topics, and so I shall address them all in one big topic. The OP is not a question, it is a statement. This is my belief as to why the world feels the way it does. I should note that any critisms and observations made stem from both my interaction on this and other international forums, as well as the immigrants and students on visas I encounter in my daily life.

Mkay. You still can't spell, but alright.

First, however, I want to discuss that various critisms and the accompanying double standards that inevitably follow. First, people complain about how America is a "bully" and about our aggressive foreign policy and apperant disgard for human rights. While it is appropraite to critisize this administration for its forgein policy blunders and its apperant disregard for human rights of any non-white individual, I would simply like to point out that America does not by any stretch of the imagination have the worst human rights track record, nor have any of the most devestating wars in human history been started by Americans. This leads us to people attacking America's history. The most amussing thing about how we apperantly have this terrible history is that the worst things we have done are simply hold overs from our Europian founders (such as extermination of the native peoples and slavery).

It's not about how America's human rights record compares with that of the rest of the world, but rather how it compares to it's own rhetoric. What people bitch about is hypocrisy, primarily, and only secondly the standard where said human rights record stands (which is pretty poor for the "best country in the world" TM)

Secondly, there seems to be a prevailing belief among my comrades on this board (the my fellow leftists) that crisizing a culture is wrong, however they will happily critisize American culture in the next topic the enter. Example, some tribes in Africa practice cannibalism. I find this practice to be barbaric and abhorent. Yet, if I made a thread about this, I would be assailed with comments about my lack of respect for other cultures and their traditions. These same people however will often go on to then make the inevitable joke about how Americans eat a lot. This is part of our culture, yet it seems acceptable for forgeiners to mock us for it. I hope I do not need to spell this one out to anyone.

I have even heard that America has no culture of its own. This is a strange accusation, as we have our own food, our own traditions, our own language (the british will agree, what we speak and what you speak is not the same), our own art, our own literature, etc.

1) You do not have any "classical culture". That's what those people mean.
2) Well if you comment about other people's cultures, other people will comment about yours. The thing is, you naturally judge the world through your own culture, and don't really realise when you pass value judgements on other people's cultures, but it becomes stringently obvious when others criticise yours. It goes both ways, but you only see it one way, so you think you're a victim.


American media also has a tendency to get attacked and ripped down by forgeiners. Fair enough, media is cultural, and most American media is garbage. However, the people who attack American media will then go on make a reference to The Simpsons, The Colbert Report, Star Wars, etc in the very next sentence. I dont think I should have to point out that one cannot slam all American media in one breath while praising it and referencing it in the next without looking like a fool.

The media doesn't have a homogeneous value. The Simpsons is a good show with some potent social commentary and its only purpose is to entertain. Fox news is a pile of shit whose purpose is to "inform".

Americans seem to be considered arrogant. When asked where people get this idea from, they always have some amussing personal anicdote. That is all well and good, but it is not in your best interest to base your opinion on an entire group of millions of people just because you met 2 or 3 you didnt like. For example, I have met a few swedes and dealt with them on international forums. In my experiance, they all think very highly of themselves, and seem to be under the impression that just by virtue of being born on a plot of dirt between Norway and Finland that their excrement smells of roses. But, if I went around saying how all people from Sweden were arrogant, insufferable pricks, I would rightly be told I was prejudice and should just shut up. It is also intersting to note that every thread about America's relation with the rest of the world inevitablly turns into a Euro-nationalist clusterfuck, as if the only thing keeping Europe from turning in on itself like does and always has done throughout history is the united hatred they have towards the states. Again, Americans are no better, but Americans are called on this attitude more so then others.

Americans are more abundant on international forums, thus attract more criticism. So?

Do not mistake my critisms here for a defense of America. As I have said, I dont believe in the virtues of a people of a nation being exclusive to that nation, because people are essentially the same, no matter where they live or what they speak or whom they prey to. The point of this is merely to address what I feel is an atrocious double standard. The critisims of America are warrented and relevent 90% of the time. However, one should not forget that no nation is perfect. America is not a shining city on a hill and a paragon of moral virtue that certian US nationalists would have you believe, but neither is it a pit of morally depraved sociopathic lunatics that the international community wishes to portray it as at times. It is no better or worse then any other nation on the globe, and to believe otherwise (on either side) is simply delusional and buying into propaganda.

Again it's the "best country in the world" TM bollocks that fuels this.

This leads me to why I believe America is hated throughout the world, and it is simple. We are top dog right now. Every nation will go to great lengths to persue and secure its interests, but America currently has the ability to go farther then the rest, because it is the super power. This is why America is seen as the "world policemen", because we have the might to persue our interests. Do not mistake this for me defending a "might makes right" mentality, this is simply me stating the way world politics work, and everyone who is grounded in reality knows this.

Which is exactly why America takes most criticism. Because it is in the spotlight all the time.

I also do not wish to give off the impression that I think other nations our jelous of the US. Im sure they are not. However, the people of those nations have either forgettn what it is like when you are top dog, or have never been a key player in world politics. Mark my words, people are the same everywhere, and because of that, if your nation ever is at the top of the food chain, do not delude yourself into believing it wont act in exactly the same way. The British did. The French did. The Spanish did. To think that your nation wont be the same is to be naive and foolish.

This isn't news.

My belief then is that America is only hated because we are irritating, which I feel most would agree with. However, the minute we are no longer on top, rest assured that your hatred for America will most likely evaporate quickly and be directed towards whoever is on top now. And chances are that Americans will join their Europian brothers and allies (because China will probably be the next super power) in critisizing and hating the next super power. And chances are, Americans will do exactly what forgeiners are doing now to us, hold double standards.

You bet. And you'll be leading the bitching because you will be the former top-dog.

As an amussing side note, I notice the people who are the least critical of America (both in my real life experiance and my experiance here) are the British. My theory for this is twofold: being founded by the British, we are very similiar people in values and views, and the British were the undisputed power of the world not too long ago, and so recognize that America is not doing anything abnormal or that they themselves didnt do.

You haven't pissed the British off as much as everyone else I guess.

It is worth noting that not every forgeiner on this board is guilty of the above critisims, nor is every forgeiner I know in real life. Sadly, the people who should read this most, the people who I hope will just think about this next time they start their eurocentric, nationalistic ravings, are the ones who are the least likely to read this or put any real thought into this, so sure of themselves are they in their own superiority, that they would never dream of listening to the advice and wisdom of an unwashed American.

Just to mention, that the forums are hosted in Britain... Foreigner (note spelling) :p

You may have done, but you really have not unvalidated my argument, if you have poor culture why should we appreciate it, criticism is necessary to help people improve.

because Britain doesn't have much going for it? well okay beyond the binge drinking and chavs

because Britain doesn't have much going for it? well okay beyond the binge drinking and chavs

We've got a lot going for us, mind you, you live in Northampton, I live near there and it is a county without much going for it.

So, it's like every nation has another nation to hate, and they all hate America?:p

Not at all what I meant.

Every nation has another nation to hate. Or ethnicity for that matter. I'm going to use an example close to home for me. (NOTE: For those here with an Arabic background, my post is not meant to be offensive, just serves to demonstrate my point.)

I'm a Spaniard. We Spaniards have a complete aversion towards the Moors. Why, you may ask? Because we were invaded by them and were under their rule for 900+ years. We faught them for centuries in order to keep an identity and a country of our own. Our culture was stepped on (although greatly influenced) by the caliphates. We tend to hate (dislike should be a better word) the Moors.

Did I explain my point a bit better?

morally depraved sociopathic lunatics?

Aww :) that's the nicest thing anyone's said about me all day.


I don't actually think anyone hates all Americans. They hate the pompous idiots that think they are better than everyone else. I've met many Americans like that. I hate them too.

And as far as hating governmental policy, it's easy to hate something you have no understanding of, or even any remote involvement in. Some Americans might say "I hate Australians because they talk retarded."

Whereas anyone who has ever been to Australia knows that not everyone is Occa, and the only reason most Australians I've ever met talk like that is to make fun of dumb ass Americans that think they talk like that.

Now, not that that example was even close to describing what I'm talking about, but it was all I could think of at the moment.

Not at all what I meant.

Every nation has another nation to hate. Or ethnicity for that matter. I'm going to use an example close to home for me. (NOTE: For those here with an Arabic background, my post is not meant to be offensive, just serves to demonstrate my point.)

I'm a Spaniard. We Spaniards have a complete aversion towards the Moors. Why, you may ask? Because we were invaded by them and were under their rule for 900+ years. We faught them for centuries in order to keep an identity and a country of our own. Our culture was stepped on (although greatly influenced) by the caliphates. We tend to hate (dislike should be a better word) the Moors.

Did I explain my point a bit better?

Yep, althought too bad cauz my thought has some truth in it.. I think

Edit: Knight you might wanna check this out:
linklinklink (http://www.doublestandards.org/enemies.htm)

Partially yes, most if what you say is true. Althoght I'm not sure that any country in your place would do the same.

First, however, I want to discuss that various critisms and the accompanying double standards that inevitably follow. First, people complain about how America is a "bully" and about our aggressive foreign policy and apperant disgard for human rights. While it is appropraite to critisize this administration for its forgein policy blunders and its apperant disregard for human rights of any non-white individual, I would simply like to point out that America does not by any stretch of the imagination have the worst human rights track record, nor have any of the most devestating wars in human history been started by Americans.

You admit it's appropriate to criticize viz a viz America's bullying, aggressiveness and callous disregard for international law and even decency. So what's the deal? So what if there were others who are worse? So what if Nazi Germany started WWII? So that makes us better, makes using nuclear weapons on a civilian population morally superior and unworthy of criticism? No it doesn't.

The "Others are worse" argument is a non-argument. Yeah. Others are worse. But since I don't live in, participate in the politics in, vote in and taxed by any other nation, I'm gonna feel free to criticize the one I am. If we timewarp to Nazi Germany, believe you me I'll be the first heaping criticism on those nazi fucks.

This leads us to people attacking America's history. The most amussing thing about how we apperantly have this terrible history is that the worst things we have done are simply hold overs from our Europian founders (such as extermination of the native peoples and slavery).

Shameful. You're trying to disavow the US of crimes committed by US Citizens, US Soldiers, at the behest of US Government, in and around the political entity of the United States as just "hold overs." Yeah, they weren't REAL Americans, or perhaps their actions weren't REALLY their own but using some kind of mind control. Like those US soldiers who would give smallpox-infected blankets to Native Americans. I guess those were really "European Founder Holdover Soldiers" and not US Soldiers.

Likewise, I guess nearly a century of slavery practiced, endorsed by and supported by the United States - well, let's just blame Europe for that too. Even though even Britain outlawed slavery before we did. It's the Europeans' fault, we're innocent.

Whatever. This is the most morally outrageous part of your post, but perhaps you didn't mean to sound so dismissive and ignorant...

Secondly, there seems to be a prevailing belief among my comrades on this board (the my fellow leftists) that crisizing a culture is wrong

This would be a strawman if entered as an argument. Otherwise just a nonrelevant anecdote. You choose!

Example, some tribes in Africa practice cannibalism. I find this practice to be barbaric and abhorent. Yet, if I made a thread about this, I would be assailed with comments about my lack of respect for other cultures and their traditions.

I don't think you can use imaginary scenarios, and the reactions you imagine we would have to those imaginary scenarios, as "example" of anything. Particularly when you are wrong. Criticizing cannibalism is among the least controversial of things one could possibly do. Of course, I suspect if you said "Africans are barbaric and abhorent," that would get you the reaction you claim. But that wouldn't be criticism, that's just bigotry.

These same people however will often go on to then make the inevitable joke about how Americans eat a lot.

Americans DO eat a lot. We make a lot of food, we buy a lot of food, and we eat a lot of food.

This is part of our culture, yet it seems acceptable for forgeiners to mock us for it. I hope I do not need to spell this one out to anyone.

Oh, I get it. Mocking fat people is mocking American culture, because now apparently fat people = American culture.

Sigh.


American media also has a tendency to get attacked and ripped down by forgeiners. Fair enough, media is cultural, and most American media is garbage. However, the people who attack American media will then go on make a reference to The Simpsons, The Colbert Report, Star Wars, etc in the very next sentence.

This is also a strawman. Unless you can point out some examples of people doing this behavior you claim. Apparently it happens constantly, so you won't have difficulty finding such examples.

I dont think I should have to point out that one cannot slam all American media in one breath while praising it and referencing it in the next without looking like a fool.

Referencing =/= praising.

I can slam American media in one breath, and reference it in the same and next breath, and there is nothing foolish about it. Your argument seems dependent on conflating "make reference to" with "praising."


It is also intersting to note that every thread about America's relation with the rest of the world inevitablly turns into a Euro-nationalist clusterfuck

Well that would also be a strawman, though what exactly defines a "Euro-nationalist clusterfuck" is so up in the air that this statement could be unfalsifiable and thus meaningless as far as argument goes.

, as if the only thing keeping Europe from turning in on itself like does and always has done throughout history is the united hatred they have towards the states. Again, Americans are no better, but Americans are called on this attitude more so then others.

This generalization about Europeans hating America is nothing more than a generalization.

Do not mistake my critisms here for a defense of America. As I have said, I dont believe in the virtues of a people of a nation being exclusive to that nation, because people are essentially the same, no matter where they live or what they speak or whom they prey to. The point of this is merely to address what I feel is an atrocious double standard.

You feel it's a double standard, but you haven't pointed out one single, real example of anyone having the double standard you claim. Your feelings, I should point out, are not evidence.

The critisims of America are warrented and relevent 90% of the time. However, one should not forget that no nation is perfect. America is not a shining city on a hill and a paragon of moral virtue that certian US nationalists would have you believe, but neither is it a pit of morally depraved sociopathic lunatics that the international community wishes to portray it as at times. It is no better or worse then any other nation on the globe

Show me two examples of Iceland using nuclear weapons against civilians and I will agree with you 100%.

, and to believe otherwise (on either side) is simply delusional and buying into propaganda.

So, disagreement with you means I'm deluded and buying into propaganda? Wow.

This leads me to why I believe America is hated throughout the world, and it is simple. We are top dog right now. Every nation will go to great lengths to persue and secure its interests, but America currently has the ability to go farther then the rest, because it is the super power. This is why America is seen as the "world policemen", because we have the might to persue our interests.

No. Lots of nations have the "might" but are not seen as world 'policemen.' Why? Cuz they don't go around invading small countries for "security" and "liberating" people by overthrowing their government and giving them a "democracy" in which their votes do not matter. In short, the US *acts* like a world policeman - a corrupt one at that - and that is why the label comes.

I also do not wish to give off the impression that I think other nations our jelous of the US. Im sure they are not. However, the people of those nations have either forgettn what it is like when you are top dog, or have never been a key player in world politics. Mark my words, people are the same everywhere, and because of that, if your nation ever is at the top of the food chain, do not delude yourself into believing it wont act in exactly the same way. The British did. The French did. The Spanish did. To think that your nation wont be the same is to be naive and foolish.

So, US foreign policy is nothing more than a natural result of the US having lots of power? In short, we are victims of the balance of power, helpless to prevent ourselves? Oh yes, here's Gitmo. Help help, it's just cuz we're 'top dog.' ANY top dog would do the same!

...

Your claims do not ring true.

My belief then is that America is only hated because we are irritating

Genocide, war, oppression, hypocrisy, deceit, corruption....

= "irritating?"

No. Your reasoning is irritating. The US is far worse.


As an amussing side note, I notice the people who are the least critical of America (both in my real life experiance and my experiance here) are the British


lol

Are you serious? No, I mean it. Are you serious? Well anyway, my experience is the direct opposite. I guess personal anecdotes aren't a good basis for making generalizations after all, eh?

Yep, althought too bad cauz my thought has some truth in it.. I think

Edit: Knight you might wanna check this out:
linklinklink (http://www.doublestandards.org/enemies.htm)

Partially yes, most if what you say is true. Althoght I'm not sure that any country in your place would do the same.

If that's what you want to believe...

I beg to differ on that last sentence. Every country, with no exception (Americans detest the Arabs, Venezuelans detest Americans, Puertoricans detest Dominicans) has another country that it detests. We're all guilty of not liking someone else (and by this I mean in the hate country context).

We've got a lot going for us, mind you, you live in Northampton, I live near there and it is a county without much going for it.

so your telling me London has something the rest of the country has not? also I hope your not about to say your from Milton Keynes :p

tl;dr

ditto

My belief then is that America is only hated because we are irritating, which I feel most would agree with. However, the minute we are no longer on top, rest assured that your hatred for America will most likely evaporate quickly and be directed towards whoever is on top now. And chances are that Americans will join their Europian brothers and allies (because China will probably be the next super power) in critisizing and hating the next super power. And chances are, Americans will do exactly what forgeiners are doing now to us, hold double standards. QFT.

As an amussing side note, I notice the people who are the least critical of America (both in my real life experiance and my experiance here) are the British. My theory for this is twofold: being founded by the British, we are very similiar people in values and views, and the British were the undisputed power of the world not too long ago, and so recognize that America is not doing anything abnormal or that they themselves didnt do. QFT again.


It is worth noting that not every forgeiner on this board is guilty of the above critisims, nor is every forgeiner I know in real life. Sadly, the people who should read this most, the people who I hope will just think about this next time they start their eurocentric, nationalistic ravings, are the ones who are the least likely to read this or put any real thought into this, so sure of themselves are they in their own superiority, that they would never dream of listening to the advice and wisdom of an unwashed American.

Extremely QFT.

Being British I don't hate America but...

If any of you know the book or movie "Trainspotting", America could be considered somewhat like the Begbie character.

ditto

well the nation itself does have an obscenely long name ;)

Being British I don't hate America but...

If any of you know the book or movie "Trainspotting", America could be considered somewhat like the Begbie character.

At points, that is actually a fairly accurate description. At others, it's way off. The "I don't do drugs" moment, with booze and cigarette in hand is strange and apt.

well the nation itself does have an obscenely long name ;)

Hey, all the other names were taken. We really wanted "France", but these people in Paris already took it.

Well KoL, I did read your post, and if I didn't I wouldn't have posted tl;dr. :D Anyway, I think you make some very good points there, and I'd just like to add one more.

America is always on the TV, the only thing anyone sees on the TV is their country and America. This makes some people sick of looking at America and it makes Americans completely self-absorbed. Also, I think this is why some Americans are ignorant. Everyone around the world learns about America on their TVs, but Americans don't learn about other cultures on their TVs.

Anyway, that was a very generalised point, and I have to say from personal experience that most Americans I know are intelligent and fun people. ;)

MDH

well the nation itself does have an obscenely long name ;)

'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' isn't exactly short either :p

so your telling me London has something the rest of the country has not? also I hope your not about to say your from Milton Keynes :p

Nah I'm from Wellingborough, we haven't got much to do here, but crime isn't really a big problem, nothing really bad, but not that much good either.

If that's what you want to believe...

I beg to differ on that last sentence. Every country, with no exception (Americans detest the Arabs, Venezuelans detest Americans, Puertoricans detest Dominicans) has another country that it detests. We're all guilty of not liking someone else (and by this I mean in the hate country context).

Sorry, my bad. The last sentence goes to knight, whether any country in USA's place would be as bullying..

Sorry, my bad. The last sentence goes to knight, whether any country in USA's place would be as bullying..

Sorry, I think I was the one who missinterpreted.

They hate us for our freedomz.

bastard, you beat me to the punch.

You admit it's appropriate to criticize viz a viz America's bullying, aggressiveness and callous disregard for international law and even decency. So what's the deal? So what if there were others who are worse? So what if Nazi Germany started WWII? So that makes us better, makes using nuclear weapons on a civilian population morally superior and unworthy of criticism? No it doesn't.

The "Others are worse" argument is a non-argument. Yeah. Others are worse. But since I don't live in, participate in the politics in, vote in and taxed by any other nation, I'm gonna feel free to criticize the one I am. If we timewarp to Nazi Germany, believe you me I'll be the first heaping criticism on those nazi fucks.

See, this is kind of a strawman here. I never said America shouldnt be critisized because others are worse. Thats just a convenient excuse to ignore what Im actually saying. Im attacking nationalism, and in an effort to attack nationalism, Im pointing out that we're all the same: Evil Bastards.

Thanks for playing though.



Shameful. You're trying to disavow the US of crimes committed by US Citizens, US Soldiers, at the behest of US Government, in and around the political entity of the United States as just "hold overs." Yeah, they weren't REAL Americans, or perhaps their actions weren't REALLY their own but using some kind of mind control. Like those US soldiers who would give smallpox-infected blankets to Native Americans. I guess those were really "European Founder Holdover Soldiers" and not US Soldiers.


Likewise, I guess nearly a century of slavery practiced, endorsed by and supported by the United States - well, let's just blame Europe for that too. Even though even Britain outlawed slavery before we did. It's the Europeans' fault, we're innocent.

Whatever. This is the most morally outrageous part of your post, but perhaps you didn't mean to sound so dismissive and ignorant...


See above. I understand how trying to paint me as a cold hateful person is more convienent however.

This would be a strawman if entered as an argument. Otherwise just a nonrelevant anecdote. You choose!

Neither really. Its pointing out double think.



I don't think you can use imaginary scenarios, and the reactions you imagine we would have to those imaginary scenarios, as "example" of anything. Particularly when you are wrong. Criticizing cannibalism is among the least controversial of things one could possibly do. Of course, I suspect if you said "Africans are barbaric and abhorent," that would get you the reaction you claim. But that wouldn't be criticism, that's just bigotry.



Americans DO eat a lot. We make a lot of food, we buy a lot of food, and we eat a lot of food.



Oh, I get it. Mocking fat people is mocking American culture, because now apparently fat people = American culture.

Once again you totally missed the point. Well done.


This is also a strawman. Unless you can point out some examples of people doing this behavior you claim. Apparently it happens constantly, so you won't have difficulty finding such examples.

Look up the "why do people hate america" topic. My search function isnt working.


Well that would also be a strawman, though what exactly defines a "Euro-nationalist clusterfuck" is so up in the air that this statement could be unfalsifiable and thus meaningless as far as argument goes.

Are you going to pretend that certian members on this board for example dont point out how much better they are every chance they get?


This generalization about Europeans hating America is nothing more than a generalization.

Cute, but I never said all Europians hated Americans. My commnts are directed towards those that do. I explicitally stated this. Not my fault you can read.

You feel it's a double standard, but you haven't pointed out one single, real example of anyone having the double standard you claim. Your feelings, I should point out, are not evidence.

Its cute that you think this tripe somehow invalidated my points.

Show me two examples of Iceland using nuclear weapons against civilians and I will agree with you 100%.

Show me an example of Iceland ever being a major player in world affairs or even a player at all, and Ill agree.

So, disagreement with you means I'm deluded and buying into propaganda? Wow.

In your case it does.

No. Lots of nations have the "might" but are not seen as world 'policemen.' Why? Cuz they don't go around invading small countries for "security" and "liberating" people by overthrowing their government and giving them a "democracy" in which their votes do not matter. In short, the US *acts* like a world policeman - a corrupt one at that - and that is why the label comes.

Other nations dont have the might to do it on the scale we do. Or is it just easier to beleive that America isjust inherantly evil, that the American government is hiding under your bed and in your closet?


So, US foreign policy is nothing more than a natural result of the US having lots of power? In short, we are victims of the balance of power, helpless to prevent ourselves? Oh yes, here's Gitmo. Help help, it's just cuz we're 'top dog.' ANY top dog would do the same!

Thats exactly what Im saying. And history agrees with me. Again, if its easier for you to stomach taht America is just inherantly evil and it ahs nothing to do with human nature, be my guest. Ill just laugh at you.

Genocide, war, oppression, hypocrisy, deceit, corruption....

= "irritating?"

Nothing any other nation or people havent done throughout history. Thats my point. You and others like you seem to have totally missed the point here. The point isnt "STOP BEING MEAN TO AMERICA!!!!" because anyone with eyse and a brain knows that Im extremelly critical of America, and I even say that the critisim is warrented 90% of the time.The point of the OP wasnt me crying about my hurt feelings, it was me saying that a lot of America bashing is nationalism cloaked in concern for the world.

No. Your reasoning is irritating. The US is far worse.

Cute.


lol

Are you serious? No, I mean it. Are you serious? Well anyway, my experience is the direct opposite. I guess personal anecdotes aren't a good basis for making generalizations after all, eh?

Which is exactly what I said earlier on in the OP. Did you by any chance flunk reading comprehension in High School?

And why are people so hung up on the British thing? That wasnt meant to be the Gospel. It was meant to just be something I found amussing. Gods.


EDIT: Once more, for clarity. This is not some nationalistic defense of America. It is an attack on human nature. My point is we are all the fucking same no matter where we live.

They hate us for our freedomz.Being which?

tl;dr. I'm sure it was chock full of interesting thoughts I've heard before, but let me give you this.

They hate us because we're beautiful.

(i skimmed a bit. When people attack the American media, they probably mean news outlets, not our comedy.)

Interestingly enough in Chinese and a lot of other Asian languages the word for USA is beautiful country.

reponce to:why pepeolpe hate us- hate you you for your libity?
mostly peolpe dont hate your entire race, there just disapointed coz they grew up watching the american TV that wasnt screend out coz of stupidity which gave the impression of a land of the free, and when they hear the news about tortures,kidnappings,supplying criminls and forming a monopoly on nukes,and turning on your allys peolpe get disapointed when the american dream, is proven to be only a dream.

dont get me wrong, no country is perfect and your better then the tird world dictatorships,but still not exactly the land of libity and justice.

Interestingly enough in Chinese and a lot of other Asian languages the word for USA is beautiful country.They've never been to New Jersey.

They've never been to New Jersey.

I think ti had something to do with we were the only major western power not trying to carve a piece of China off for themselves.

though we unfortunately still took part in unequal treaties.

I know I joked about this in the other thread but I do honestly believe that jealousy is a part of some critisism.

I know I joked about this in the other thread but I do honestly believe that jealousy is a part of some critisism.

You can't say that on NS General - it's considered flaming.

The OP is generaly acurate, if some what ungramatical at times. I especially agree that we should not judge people based on the nationallity they were born with, as to me that's little better than racism, if at all. I would not say, however, that the only thing holding Europe together is hatred of America, nor that America is "no better or worse" than any other country.

But yes, I too get sick of the politically correct hipocrits who hold almost every critisism of another culture to be offensive, unless its America. Being in a Canadian high school, I have to deal with this crap all the time, including from the same teachers who spend too much time lecturing us on tollerance and respect for other cultures and too little time teaching their actual subjects.:mad:

I like the canaballism example, by the way. I had this same God forsaken debate in my Literature class, and it was basically me arguing against the entire class that canniballism was, in fact wrong, while every one else parotted the usual appollogetics like a bunch of automatons.:headbang: Listen, I don't care if its your cultural heritage if the result is to inflict needless suffering or deprive you of your rights.

People hate us for the same reason they hated England when it was a world-wide empire, that they hated Rome when they were an empire, that they hated any all-encompassing, imperial, powerful nation - because we have what they want or what they once had and lost. Some day we will lose it and have our turn at hating another all encompassing, imperial, powerful nation that has what we want or what we once had and lost. It's a cycle, get over it.

I like the canaballism example, by the way. I had this same God forsaken debate in my Literature class, and it was basically me arguing against the entire class that canniballism was, in fact wrong, while every one else parotted the usual appollogetics like a bunch of automatons.:headbang: Listen, I don't care if its your cultural heritage if the result is to inflict needless suffering or deprive you of your rights.

I wasn't there, but maybe the point in your classmates arguements was that, it may was an unacceptable act, but to their defense, it was part of their culture, everyone was doing it, everyone was raised to believe it is normal so they can't actually be held responsible for what they were doing.

Am I right or nowhere near what they meant?

People hate us for the same reason they hated England when it was a world-wide empire, that they hated Rome when they were an empire, that they hated any all-encompassing, imperial, powerful nation

Are you actually sure about this? Have you read anything on the matter or just making an assumption?

Secondly, there seems to be a prevailing belief among my comrades on this board (the my fellow leftists) that crisizing a culture is wrong, however they will happily critisize American culture in the next topic the enter. Example, some tribes in Africa practice cannibalism. I find this practice to be barbaric and abhorent. Yet, if I made a thread about this, I would be assailed with comments about my lack of respect for other cultures and their traditions.

No, you wouldn't. Find an example of this actually happening.

to the OP.
Why is the US hated?

Short answer is power. Right now the US occupies a global hegemony position.
Before that The British did, and Before that the French did and so on.
In general the hegemony acts on its own with out international consensus.
And all the other nations tend to protest that as they could get more of their interest met if there was a compromise or international consensus reached.

Think about it like this, when the US no longer has the power to intervene in world affairs to the extent that we do, it will be the US that complains about others not getting UN permission ETC.

Insecure much?

There should be a rule concerning these threads similar to that for the USA presidential elections... only 1 or 2 per day.

We love/hate you, ok? You shouldn't care too much.

Secondly, there seems to be a prevailing belief among my comrades on this board (the my fellow leftists) that crisizing a culture is wrong, however they will happily critisize American culture in the next topic the enter. Example, some tribes in Africa practice cannibalism. I find this practice to be barbaric and abhorent. Yet, if I made a thread about this, I would be assailed with comments about my lack of respect for other cultures and their traditions.

No, you wouldn't. Find an example of this actually happening.

Knights, you have no respect for other cultures and their traditions. :D

Hate is maybe too big of a word...:mp5:

Despise may be more correct

but dont worry I despise you the same I despise all other nations. So dont get cocky or feel like you are special. :p

And for all I oppose and critizice USA imperialism I prefere a hundred times to keep the US as the top dog than have someone as the Chinese or the Europeans running the show.

EDIT: Cannibalism can save your life.... Im PRO cannibalism, just against murder

And for all I oppose and critizice USA imperialism I prefere a hundred times to keep the US as the top dog than have someone as the Chinese or the Europeans running the show.

Why is that?

Edit:
Well for Europe, I can tell you it's too complex a structure to actually agree on doing the same stuff US did. Especially the undercover planning of overthrowing governments, that requires a centralized agency such as CIA, which Europe lacks at the moment. Otherwise information would leak all over the place.

Hate is maybe too big of a word...:mp5:

Despise may be more correct

but dont worry I despise you the same I despise all other nations. So dont get cocky or feel like you are special. :p

And for all I oppose and critizice USA imperialism I prefere a hundred times to keep the US as the top dog than have someone as the Chinese or the Europeans running the show.

LoL yeah. last time the Europeans ran the show they claimed everything that they could and then some. New definitions of Imperialism such as economic Imperialism had to be coined just so we could refer to ourselves as imperialist.

Why is that?

Why I prefere USA as top dog than China?

Communism, complete disregard for human life and rights (with out even trying to apparent they care), take for example what they did on Tibet.

or

Why I prefere USA as top dog than Europe?
Europe has already been THE top dog.... and oh boy how they messed the whole world.

But I may be unfair...lets give the USA three centuries ruling the world and then we compare with the three centuries Europe did

Admittedly, once or twice even I--a decidedly self-loathing US citizen--have been annoyed and kinda-sorta offended by attacks on the United States on these forums.

It's a very weird experience. I'm not used to feeling like a nationalist.

But I may be unfair...lets give the USA three centuries ruling the world and then we compare with the three centuries Europe did

Seem to be making the same mistakes they did. then again it might be that there are no right answers to those problems.

Yes same mistakes... and very quickly... but they have very little time in the job.

Maybe the Europeans have lernt a lesson or two after WW I and II...

I believe that since the US has never been in a war like those (I know, I know the US participated in both, I mean thay they have never had their nation completely razed like France, Germany or the UK) is why they are still so beligerant. Maybe not...

Seem to be making the same mistakes they did. then again it might be that there are no right answers to those problems.

Thats my point. Ding ding ding.


But I guess its just easier for everyone to yell "OMG STOP DEFENDING AMERICA!!!"

Yes same mistakes... and very quickly... but they have very little time in the job.

Maybe the Europeans have lernt a lesson or two after WW I and II...

I believe that since the US has never been in a war like those (I know, I know the US participated in both, I mean thay they have never had their nation completely razed like France, Germany or the UK) is why they are still so beligerant. Maybe not...

7 years war, Napoleonic wars. the two wars normally signal a change in power. the US got lucky and some how got the British/French/Russia to largely fight the wars that brought us to power for us.

Thats my point. Ding ding ding.


But I guess its just easier for everyone to yell "OMG STOP DEFENDING AMERICA!!!"

No point in being mad at them for that. It is in their nature, because each time they get the US to go through the UN they get more of their objectives met then if the US acted alone.

1. America does have culture, but most of it is pretty rubbish, you have terrible literature (asides H.P Lovecraft), terrible music currently but you did have some great stuff in the 50s-80s, your food is just basically fried fat, your traditions are incredibly commercialised. The language you speak is English, not a different language, it is simply wrong English, the clue being in the name, the English should determine the English language.

And people say Americans are stupid. Here's a clue to all the elitists criticizing "American English." You see, there's this thing in linguistics called "dialect." Over time, dialects (and for that matter languages) change in various ways, especially if one group of people is geographically separated from another group of people. I know it's a hard concept to grasp that American English developed along a different path than English from the UK, but believe it or not, it happens! Linguistics 101, amazing stuff.

You like H.P. Lovecraft BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Edgar Allan Poe, Herman Neville, Mark Twain, Ernest Hemingway...top of my mind.

American Literature sucks?... well yeah if you read the New York Times Best Sellers it does...

1. America does have culture, but most of it is pretty rubbish, you have terrible literature (asides H.P Lovecraft), terrible music currently but you did have some great stuff in the 50s-80s, your food is just basically fried fat, your traditions are incredibly commercialised. The language you speak is English, not a different language, it is simply wrong English, the clue being in the name, the English should determine the English language.


Technically US english is closer to original English then British English. thats because of this Pesky thing called the Great Vowel shift. You see colonials in North America ceased changing their Vowels, somewhere between the mid 1600's to the early 1700's. Not really our fault your Brits keep changing how you pronounce your vowels now is it ?

the pollen count is insane today so tl;dr *currently hates the reality*

I could start by how you use "us" in the title which almost had me wonder why someone would hate little old me :(

What does it say about me that my first thought before even clicking the link was "This is about the U.S., isn't it?"

1. America does have culture, but most of it is pretty rubbish, you have terrible literature (asides H.P Lovecraft), terrible music currently but you did have some great stuff in the 50s-80s, your food is just basically fried fat, your traditions are incredibly commercialised. The language you speak is English, not a different language, it is simply wrong English, the clue being in the name, the English should determine the English language.

You think Lovecraft is our best? Education failed you. Like Epically Failed.

2. I'm British and i still hate you, in fact from my experience the majority of England hates the US. We also have incredibly different values and views, England has vastly more developed youth, our children grow up considerably faster from my experience, we also have different ethnic groups to the US and our values and views are less heavily influenced by religion.

Judging from your posting, I'd say your country's values and views are also less heavily influenced by intelligence. Fortunately, since you're not the only example of U.K. citizens that I've been exposed to, I know that you're not all this ignorant.

You like H.P. Lovecraft BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Edgar Allan Poe, Herman Neville, Mark Twain, Ernest Hemingway...top of my mind.

Never cared much for Hemingway personally, but I'd say you missed Steinbeck. Mark Twain definitely though. And we've had some great authors of color as well: Frederick Douglass and Ernest Gaines to name two.

American Literature sucks?... well yeah if you read the New York Times Best Sellers it does...

That's hardly fair. Some of the best reads I've ever had came out of that list. Slaughterhouse Five was one of those.

Oh yeah, you forgot to include Kurt Vonnegut in your list.

Technically US english is closer to original English then British English. thats because of this Pesky thing called the Great Vowel shift. You see colonials in North America ceased changing their Vowels, somewhere between the mid 1600's to the early 1700's. Not really our fault your Brits keep changing how you pronounce your vowels now is it ?

Bah, don't you Brits and Americans have anything better to do than argue about the same damn language?

Bah, don't you Brits and Americans have anything better to do than argue about the same damn language?

If we keep them distracted, they won't be able to focus on their plan to take back the colonies. But I'll be ready for them, oh yes I will.

If we keep them distracted, they won't be able to focus on their plan to take back the colonies. But I'll be ready for them, oh yes I will.

I should have known:mp5:

Simply sad, I don't hate Americans nor America, I hate certain people (well "hate" is a strong word ofr most of them). And if a lot of those people happen to live in the country USA, well then that's bad luck. I don't care where they live.

"You know Caboose, I used to not care. I just went along with orders, and hoped that everything would work out for me. But after all that's happened, you know what I've learned? It's not about hating the guy on the other side because someone told you to. I mean, you should hate someone because they're an asshole, or a pervert, or snob, or they're lazy, or arrogant or an idiot or know-it-all. Those are reasons to dislike somebody. You don't hate a person because someone told you to. You have to learn to despise people on a personal level. Not because they're red, or because they're blue, but because ya know them, and you see them every single day. And you can't stand them, because they're a complete and total fucking douchebag."

I mean, you should hate someone because they're an asshole, or a pervert, or snob, or they're lazy, or arrogant or an idiot or know-it-all.

Then again you could, I don't know..not hate them? :p
Just a thought..

Then again you could, I don't know..not hate them? :p
Just a thought..

Notice the quotation marks.

To be honest...even though I like to take the piss out of you yanks from time to time (Yanks been quoted on purpose just to get a rise out of you grey coats ;-) ) For the most part I actually like my cousins from across the pond...the thing that sticks in my gut though is not only did you vote in a complete idiot to power...you voted him in again!! For a supposedly intelligent nation you have absolutely no common sense in electing someone to run your country...I mean come on!!

Ugh, another one of these threads. I've been lurking recently after having my nation deleted due to inactivity (Vampad made in 2004) and I have to say these threads always ALWAYS degenerate into a WW2 argument and then a general pissing contest. I'm not from America and I have to say that people will always hate America. Just like people will always hate other countries. The only thing that would stop this is world peace and that isn't happening any time soon.

Ugh, another one of these threads. I've been lurking recently after having my nation deleted due to inactivity (Vampad made in 2004) and I have to say these threads always ALWAYS degenerate into a WW2 argument and then a general pissing contest. I'm not from America and I have to say that people will always hate America. Just like people will always hate other countries. The only thing that would stop this is world peace and that isn't happening any time soon.

world peace would be achieved if everyone did as we said but not as we do.

Edit: Knight you might wanna check this out:
linklinklink (http://www.doublestandards.org/enemies.htm)

What no Australia on the list, plenty of Australians hate Americans, some with a passion for some bizarre reason, mainly because they are socialists and have to hate something, for some of the younger people they hate Americans because they think it is the cool thing to do.

Me while I like Americans I hate tourist Americans or those in large groups, I posted my reasons why on another thread but I don't remember which one.

Nanatsu: Yes we all have some one to hate, and even people in a country may hate fellow countrymen from another region but that is usually called State rivalry. While we have a lot of gripes over countries Australia's biggest one is New Zealand but they started it because we beat them in a cricket game and they got all sooky about it.

*Waits for witty Kiwi comeback* *Realises will be waiting for all eternity*

To be honest...even though I like to take the piss out of you yanks from time to time (Yanks been quoted on purpose just to get a rise out of you grey coats ;-) ) For the most part I actually like my cousins from across the pond...the thing that sticks in my gut though is not only did you vote in a complete idiot to power...you voted him in again!! For a supposedly intelligent nation you have absolutely no common sense in electing someone to run your country...I mean come on!!

I do agree with you. But to be fair, it's not like we had a bunch of great options. Only 2 people can run for president, and that election both of the contenders weren't the best examples of good leaders.

At points, that is actually a fairly accurate description. At others, it's way off. The "I don't do drugs" moment, with booze and cigarette in hand is strange and apt.

Well I was more going with the idea of it being self righteous and self absorbed, prone to committing random acts of violence and criminality to boost its ego and see itself as some kind of avenging maverick hero hard man, when it is little but a threat and an embarrassment but at the end of it all, "it's a mate, what can you do?"

The OP is very long, so I'm not going to repeat the whole thing again, but I believe I will be the first here to QFT the whole thing. And a note to Knights: enjoy this moment, because I can tell you and I would disagree on a very large number of other things, but here's something we can agree on.

Also, reading over the other posts on this thread seems to be only proving the author's point. A note to the critical European posters: look at what you're doing right now, and think about the point of the post in general rather than nit-picking specific statements looking to score points, and you'll see what I'm getting at.

This is simply me thinking thoughtfully allowed. Take it with a grain of salt.

Will do. Though it is probably prudent to point out before hand I am not an amorphous "anti-American" but I do take issue with this the US has down, it's policies and parts of it culture (as do many US citizens I'm assuming)


First, however, I want to discuss that various critisms and the accompanying double standards that inevitably follow. First, people complain about how America is a "bully" and about our aggressive foreign policy and apperant disgard for human rights. While it is appropraite to critisize this administration for its forgein policy blunders and its apperant disregard for human rights of any non-white individual, I would simply like to point out that America does not by any stretch of the imagination have the worst human rights track record,

Call me a hopeless romantic, but I think it would be nice if you rustle up a better defence than "we [an industrialised western nation] are much better then North Korea."

Whilst true, I do like to hold constitutionally democratic countries to higher standards.

nor have any of the most devestating wars in human history been started by Americans.

I shan't touch this one for fear of splitting hairs and derailing the thread.

This leads us to people attacking America's history. The most amussing thing about how we apperantly have this terrible history is that the worst things we have done are simply hold overs from our Europian founders (such as extermination of the native peoples and slavery).

I think you protest too much.

That is not the limit to your nation's closet skeletons. Terrible things have been done

And to apportion all blame for slavery and treatment of the Native Americans to your old world progenitors is a bit unfair. You did break plenty of treaties signed with them after you gained independence.

I'm not trying to say that Europe has proud, spotless history. Just pointing out it is unfair to pretend that is the extent of your misdeeds and that "it wasn't our fault really," is unrealistic.

Secondly, there seems to be a prevailing belief among my comrades on this board (the my fellow leftists) that crisizing a culture is wrong, however they will happily critisize American culture in the next topic the enter.

True, moral relativists can act funny. But perhaps they see themselves as part of the same culture (western European is a frequent delineation)

Example, some tribes in Africa practice cannibalism. I find this practice to be barbaric and abhorent. Yet, if I made a thread about this, I would be assailed with comments about my lack of respect for other cultures and their traditions.

This bit, in and of itself, could probably fuel a thousand rants on its own ;)

These same people however will often go on to then make the inevitable joke about how Americans eat a lot. This is part of our culture, yet it seems acceptable for forgeiners to mock us for it.

This agreement has taken a strange turn...

:)

Though if you don't like the stereotype maybe the German's will take it back ;)

I have even heard that America has no culture of its own. This is a strange accusation, as we have our own food, our own traditions, our own language (the british will agree, what we speak and what you speak is not the same), our own art, our own literature, etc.

QFT.

I find this a tiring argument. I have encountered it frequently. Only in real life (until later in this thread obviously), which is strange.

American media also has a tendency to get attacked and ripped down by forgeiners. Fair enough, media is cultural, and most American media is garbage. However, the people who attack American media will then go on make a reference to The Simpsons, The Colbert Report, Star Wars, etc in the very next sentence.

I'm not sure, but are you equivocating here?

Americans seem to be considered arrogant. When asked where people get this idea from, they always have some amussing personal anicdote. That is all well and good, but it is not in your best interest to base your opinion on an entire group of millions of people just because you met 2 or 3 you didnt like.

I'm not excusing this bit, because broadly I agree with you. Just trying to clarify it. I think many Europeans meet a lot of tourists from the US, which tends to colour their opinions.

Also speaking as a Brit, there is also a lot of reinforcement from entertainments (and sometimes even news) media for the idea of US citizens as gun-slinging ignoramuses.

I also wonder if there is also an element of uncanny valley.

I'll skip over the reset of the paragraph if that is ok.

It is no better or worse then any other nation on the globe, and to believe otherwise (on either side) is simply delusional and buying into propaganda.

Now that is just silly. And you know, in fact one of your first arguements was saying that the nation is a lot better then others.

Though if you were saying the people are no better or worse. That would be a different argument (and possible thread too).

This leads me to why I believe America is hated throughout the world, and it is simple. We are top dog right now. Every nation will go to great lengths to persue and secure its interests, but America currently has the ability to go farther then the rest, because it is the super power. This is why America is seen as the "world policemen", because we have the might to persue our interests. Do not mistake this for me defending a "might makes right" mentality, this is simply me stating the way world politics work, and everyone who is grounded in reality knows this.

I think you have got to the nub of many people's problem (though I thought you were going to the scary "everyone else is just envious," thankfully not). Interventionism. Nobody (least of all the people of the US in my experience) like the idea of a foreign agency having more influence in the running of their country than they do. And sadly the US has a sad history of this.

The British did. The French did. The Spanish did. To think that your nation wont be the same is to be naive and foolish.

We like to hold onto the conceit that we have learned from our past and are trying to share our knowledge and experience with you uppity yanks ;)

------------------------------

I would also like to point to a certain extent the US is to blame as much as the rest of the world. The US has projected itself onto the consciousness of the world as an all conquering giant; swaggering and macho, with the might of god behind it. This may have been positive during the Cold War but I am not convinced it is such a good thing now, especially since it has become apparent the giant has no clothes on and the might is looking quite rusty

The rest of the world is guilty for swallowing this line and using it against it.

This bit is rather ill worded on my part. I should clean it up. But I just want to get the thought out.


-------------------------------


1. America does have culture, but most of it is pretty rubbish, you have terrible literature (asides H.P Lovecraft),

If you think that HP Lovecraft is the height of US literature, then I think the problem is in your reading rather then in their writing.

terrible music currently but you did have some great stuff in the 50s-80s, your food is just basically fried fat, your traditions are incredibly commercialised.

The fact that US culture is only presented to you, a foreigner, as a product doesn't colour your view at all does it. Oh no.

The language you speak is English, not a different language, it is simply wrong English, the clue being in the name, the English should determine the English language.

First remove the log from your own eye; before removing the mote from your brother'.

2. I'm British and i still hate you, in fact from my experience the majority of England hates the US. We also have incredibly different values and views,

We really don't. See my previous thing about uncanny valley.

England has vastly more developed youth, our children grow up considerably faster from my experience,

That's because of the hormones in the KFC "family bucket*"


*For god's sake. Who ever thought that a bucket was a suitable utensil to eat from?

we also have different ethnic groups to the US and our values and views are less heavily influenced by religion.

Now, if you believe that you'll believe anything.

You may have done, but you really have not unvalidated my argument, if you have poor culture why should we appreciate it, criticism is necessary to help people improve.

But there was no criticism. Just vitriol and bile and blanket accusations and snobbery.

Hey, all the other names were taken. We really wanted "France", but these people in Paris already took it.

Well that is one mystery solved :)

I think ti had something to do with we were the only major western power not trying to carve a piece of China off for themselves.

though we unfortunately still took part in unequal treaties.

Now, I could be wrong (it being far outside the field I specialised in). But didn't the US take part in a fair share of gunboat diplomacy in the Far East?


I know I joked about this in the other thread but I do honestly believe that jealousy is a part of some critisism.
You can't say that on NS General - it's considered flaming.

Really? I thought it was just considered fatuous :rolleyes:

LoL yeah. last time the Europeans ran the show they claimed everything that they could and then some.

...mumble mumble mumble *mutters something about nowhere else having flags* rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb ...



;)

To be honest...even though I like to take the piss out of you yanks from time to time (Yanks been quoted on purpose just to get a rise out of you grey coats ;-) ) For the most part I actually like my cousins from across the pond...the thing that sticks in my gut though is not only did you vote in a complete idiot to power...you voted him in again!! For a supposedly intelligent nation you have absolutely no common sense in electing someone to run your country...I mean come on!!

Well that's not entirely true. I just recently saw a documentary on this one.
Bush actually took over power with a bureaucratic coup d'etat, Gore was the one who actually won. I'm not just overreacting, I've got tons of evidence to support this, if I am asked to.

if I am asked to.

Come one. You have known someone would bite :)

I know:rolleyes:
It's just that I don't know what to begin with and the evidence is too much.

Ok for a start this shows how close the two candidates were:
2000 (http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/)

Which makes this important:
Florida (http://edition.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/12/13/got.here/index.html)

Read that for now:P

Name one nation - just ONE! - that is actually liked by ANY other nation on the planet (as in, the majority of the population likes the nation and its culture).

Just one. I dare you.

The best you can hope for is indifference.
It's a fact of life that all nations are unpopular with all other nations. But it's only the USA that for some reason seems to have a problem with that...

Name one nation - just ONE! - that is actually liked by ANY other nation on the planet (as in, the majority of the population likes the nation and its culture).

Just one. I dare you.

The best you can hope for is indifference.
It's a fact of life that all nations are unpopular with all other nations. But it's only the USA that for some reason seems to have a problem with that...

Ireland. Everybody likes Ireland, and the Irish are fine, fine people!

Ireland. Everybody likes Ireland, and the Irish are fine, fine people!

*lol
Nope, not buying it. The couple of Spanish I've been talking to over here hated Ireland. ;)

*lol
Nope, not buying it. The couple of Spanish I've been talking to over here hated Ireland. ;)

The Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan?

*lol
Nope, not buying it. The couple of Spanish I've been talking to over here hated Ireland. ;)

They must have been overwhelmed by the awesomeness

*lol
Nope, not buying it. The couple of Spanish I've been talking to over here hated Ireland. ;)

Ahhh who cares what the Spanish think!:D

The Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan?

Indifference. Slight anger for letting the previous owners of my mom's dog emmigrate to Germany ... and bringing that fucking dog with them!

Ahhh who cares what the Spanish think!:D

USAmericans, apparently ;)

USAmericans, apparently ;)

Ahh well yes must that shared Catholic heretige.

They must have been overwhelmed by the awesomeness

Not really. They hated the place for being so backwards...
And btw, the English aren't too fond of the Irish either, altogether. ;)

Not really. They hated the place for being so backwards...
And btw, the English aren't too fond of the Irish either, altogether. ;)

Well I don't know, i'm English I love the Irish.

Well I don't know, i'm English I love the Irish.

Possibly. But the overall mood seems to be more along the "Damned paddies blowing up our stations and coming over to take our jobs with their gingeritis and throves of kids, backward Catholics" lines. ;)
When my BF came over to work here, some of his friends actually asked if he couldn't find work anywhere civilised...

Possibly. But the overall mood seems to be more along the "Damned paddies blowing up our stations and coming over to take our jobs with their gingeritis and throves of kids, backward Catholics" lines. ;)
When my BF came over to work here, some of his friends actually asked if he couldn't find work anywhere civilised...

Hmm...Singapore?

Hmm...Singapore?

Indifference... I have to admit, I might take a while to even find it on a map...

Name one nation - just ONE! - that is actually liked by ANY other nation on the planet (as in, the majority of the population likes the nation and its culture).

Just one. I dare you.

The best you can hope for is indifference.
It's a fact of life that all nations are unpopular with all other nations. But it's only the USA that for some reason seems to have a problem with that...

That is an interesting way to look at it.


Not really. They hated the place for being so backwards...
And btw, the English aren't too fond of the Irish either, altogether. ;)Well I don't know, i'm English I love the Irish.

Well it isn't too long ago that there was rampant anti-Irish discrimination.

("No Blacks, no dogs, no Irish," frex.)

Name one nation - just ONE! - that is actually liked by ANY other nation on the planet (as in, the majority of the population likes the nation and its culture).

Just one. I dare you.

The best you can hope for is indifference.
It's a fact of life that all nations are unpopular with all other nations. But it's only the USA that for some reason seems to have a problem with that...

Does it matter if the one country basically owns/runs the other? The US pretty well likes the US Virgin Islands, though not necessarily well enough to offer sovereignty... ;)

Though if colonies, territories, and protectorates don't count, there's probably no genuine love to be had anywhere. We're doomed.

Possibly. But the overall mood seems to be more along the "Damned paddies blowing up our stations and coming over to take our jobs with their gingeritis and throves of kids, backward Catholics" lines. ;)
When my BF came over to work here, some of his friends actually asked if he couldn't find work anywhere civilised...

Bwahah say, you're not still living in the 70's now are you?:p

Well it isn't too long ago that there was rampant anti-Irish discrimination.

("No Blacks, no dogs, no Irish," frex.)

Heh if 80 years isn't so long ago!

Name one nation - just ONE! - that is actually liked by ANY other nation on the planet (as in, the majority of the population likes the nation and its culture).

Just one. I dare you.

The best you can hope for is indifference.
It's a fact of life that all nations are unpopular with all other nations. But it's only the USA that for some reason seems to have a problem with that...

That is an interesting way to look at it.

And btw, the English aren't too fond of the Irish either, altogether. ;)

Well ok that's true. I'm referred to as 'that immigrant' rather than my name by my girlfriends (from England) grandfather

Well I don't know, i'm English I love the Irish.

Me too, at least they aren't Welsh

The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You'll find he's a stinker as likely as not

The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

The Scotsman is mean as we're all well aware
He's boney and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And hasn't got bishops to show him the way

The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

The Irishman now our contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third

The English are moral the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood

The Welshman's dishonest, he cheats when he can
He's little and dark more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp on his hat
And sings far too loud, far too often and flat

The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

And crossing the channel one cannot say much
For the French or the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed

The English are noble, the English are nice
And worth any other at double the price

And all the world over each nation's the same
They've simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won
And they practice before hand which spoils all the fun

The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

It's not that they're wicked or naturally bad
It's just that they're foreign that makes them so mad
The English are all that a nation should be
And the pride of the English are Chipper and me

The English the English the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

-Flanders and Swann

Me too, at least they aren't Welsh

Indeed. I'm not a great lover of the Welsh, I dunno why but it seems they don't react too kindly to Londoners!

Bwahah say, you're not still living in the 70's now are you?:p

*lol No.
But neither am I living in the 40s any more, and I still get to hear jokes about Nazis... on a regular basis. ;)

Not really. They hated the place for being so backwards...
And btw, the English aren't too fond of the Irish either, altogether. ;)


I think it depends on what part of the country. Never aware of any anti Irish feeling where I am despite the invasion every March for the races. My other half who is Irish found a lot of it growing up in Chester though.

Irish are well liked I'd say (apart from the inlaws that is)

Name one nation - just ONE! - that is actually liked by ANY other nation on the planet (as in, the majority of the population likes the nation and its culture).

Just one. I dare you.

The best you can hope for is indifference.
It's a fact of life that all nations are unpopular with all other nations. But it's only the USA that for some reason seems to have a problem with that...

What about Hutt River?

You can't say no one likes the eccentric antics of Prince Leonard.

Heh if 80 years isn't so long ago!

Would the 80s be better? ;)

Damn you, I put a lot of thought into that! :p

I sort of gave up reading after the first few paragraphs. All apologies, but I only had 3 hours sleep and frankly, my brain hurts.

However, your observation upon the double standards of the left apropos "culture" is correct; inevitably subjective criticism of culture seems only to be acceptable when the target is deemed "powerful" and thus fair game to a political strand of thought in which success and triumpahlism are held in low regard.

*lol No.
But neither am I living in the 40s any more, and I still get to hear jokes about Nazis... on a regular basis. ;)

hey cant be any worse then this
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SpZznpjJNBI
For Germans at least.

hey cant be any worse then this
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SpZznpjJNBI
For Germans at least.

Can't watch youtube at work, sorry.
But I don't care about those jokes. A few of them are actually quite funny, although they tend to be a bit repetitive.

*lol
Nope, not buying it. The couple of Spanish I've been talking to over here hated Ireland. ;)

I'm Spanish, I've been to Ireland. I happen to think the Irish are nice people. I like them a lot. ;)

Would the 80s be better? ;)

No I strongly deny that. I remember the 80's and although some of the music was great, it is largely the decade that taste forgot!:)

And btw, the English aren't too fond of the Irish either, altogether. ;)

Completely untrue.

Everyone loves the Irish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyoYnlduR3g&NR=1


And he is even Muslim.

I nominate him for Nobel peace prize.

I've found that people hate me when I act as a self-centered arrogant insensible idiot.

Most of the time, people hating me is a symptom of a bad behaviour of mine. Maybe other people, and groups thereof, could use sometimes the very same idea.

btw, from the op:

Secondly, there seems to be a prevailing belief among my comrades on this board (the my fellow leftists) that crisizing a culture is wrong, however they will happily critisize American culture in the next topic the enter.


1.no "the" before "my".
2.it's "criticizing" (according to the Cambridge dictionary)
3.a semicolon (; ) would have been better
4.it's "criticize" (from "critic")
5."next thread they enter", I guess.

5 errors in a single period (btw I can't recall "secondly" as a correct form, but I'll give you the benefit of doubt). A great way to advertise one's own 'culture'.

I've found that people hate me when I act as a self-centered arrogant insensible idiot.

Most of the time, people hating me is a symptom of a bad behaviour of mine. Maybe other people, and groups thereof, could use sometimes the very same idea.

btw, from the op:


1.no "the" before "my".
2.it's "criticizing" (according to the Cambridge dictionary)
3.a semicolon (; ) would have been better
4.it's "criticize" (from "critic")
5."next thread they enter", I guess.

5 errors in a single period (btw I can't recall "secondly" as a correct form, but I'll give you the benefit of doubt). A great way to advertise one's own 'culture'.

I believe you missed the point entirely.

I believe you missed the point entirely.

I do hope so. I always hope that the world is better than I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyoYnlduR3g&NR=1


And he is even Muslim.

I nominate him for Nobel peace prize.

Personally I like this video, which was in the same page:D
link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_gNrBHSysE&feature=related)

Ok I actually hadn't seen the entire video before posting the link, not as good as I thought:/

Me too, at least they aren't Welsh

i'm half Welsh, live in England, and i don't hate the Irish, or the Scottish, or the English, or even the French... nor the Americans, too. i just hate everybody equally ;)

or, more accurately, i just don't like people in general, whatever country they're from :)

See, this is kind of a strawman here. I never said America shouldnt be critisized because others are worse. Thats just a convenient excuse to ignore what Im actually saying. Im attacking nationalism, and in an effort to attack nationalism, Im pointing out that we're all the same: Evil Bastards.

You can't say that every nation acts like the United States, because it doesn't. And frankly, human beings aren't all the same either.

See above. I understand how trying to paint me as a cold hateful person is more convienent however.

I'm looking above, and all I see is your stupid-ass "they weren't really America's fault" disavowal. "European holdovers." I also see my argument shredding that one apart. And you ignoring that completely.

You can pretend I'm just a big meanie trying to 'paint' you as 'hateful' all you like. What I am doing is ripping apart your arguments. What you are doing is spitting out fallacies. (For example, the above is a strawman that attempts to dismiss my entire argument by ignoring it completely.)

Neither really. Its pointing out double think.

Ah, of course. Just insert a random 1984 reference, that'll make it all better.

Once again you totally missed the point. Well done.

No, I didn't miss the point. I got your point. I merely pointed out three examples of how stupid it was.

Look up the "why do people hate america" topic. My search function isnt working.

That's a huge thread. I am not going to pour through the entire thing looking for ways to support YOUR argument. If your search function isn't working and you can't find a single one out of the 'many' examples to support your points, that's simply a tragic failure on your part.

Are you going to pretend that certian members on this board for example dont point out how much better they are every chance they get?

That in no way addresses the issue of what the fuck a "Euro-nationalist clusterfuck" is, or how one determines whether a thread has become that. Let's face it, that's just insulting nonsense and not a real argument.

Cute, but I never said all Europians hated Americans.

You don't have to, for it to be a generalization.

My commnts are directed towards those that do.

....who are....?

See, this is what I mean. You have no examples. They are imaginary strawmen puppets. The teeming hordes of invisible, very silent America-hatin' Europeans.

I explicitally stated this. Not my fault you can read.

Indeed it isn't. ;)

Its cute that you think this tripe somehow invalidated my points.

You invalidated your own points. I merely pointed it out. Your "feelings" are not evidence. I'm not exactly alone here.

If what I say is "tripe," by all means, point out how. Be specific. Or is it easier to have me come up with elaborate rebuttals that you just shrug and dismiss? Kind of a power trip, to have me putting real effort into reading AND writing, and you can just blurt out some word like "tripe" and that's supposed to be an argument?

Show me an example of Iceland ever being a major player in world affairs or even a player at all, and Ill agree.

Ooh, goalpost changing. Iceland doesn't need to be a "major player in world affairs."

You said - and I quote - "It [the United States] is no better or worse then any other nation on the globe."

Now it's your job to show me how Iceland is just as bad as the United States. Otherwise, your first statement is wrong. It's that simple.

In your case it does.

In my case specifically, eh? OK, so you will have no problem demonstrating just what propaganda it is I am supposed to be deluded by. Or is that too much effort and thought for you, too.

Other nations dont have the might to do it on the scale we do. Or is it just easier to beleive that America isjust inherantly evil, that the American government is hiding under your bed and in your closet?

Other nations DO have the might to use nuclear weapons on civilians. No other nation has. Now you're trying to paint me as an "America hater," which is pretty amusing. I don't hate America, but I do despise stupidity, and boy you're getting pretty despicable here.

Thats exactly what Im saying. And history agrees with me.

No, "history" doesn't agree with you: the United States is responsible for its actions. It is not helpless. The people at Gitmo are not helpless. They are not victims of being :top dog:

To say otherwise is fucking disgusting, unreasonable, and certainly NOT supported by "history."

Again, if its easier for you to stomach taht America is just inherantly evil and it ahs nothing to do with human nature, be my guest. Ill just laugh at you.

I don't think you have the slightest clue what I believe, nor do I think you care, since you'd much rather assume things about other posters than read what they write.

Nothing any other nation or people havent done throughout history.

Right. Like those times Iceland nuked tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

Ooh! Remember when Trinidad and Tobago lied about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction as an excuse to invade the country, overthrow the government and occupy key oil centers all in the name of liberating the people?

Yeah me neither. Because, again, you're fucking wrong.


The point of the OP wasnt me crying about my hurt feelings, it was me saying that a lot of America bashing is nationalism cloaked in concern for the world.

Right, well I'm American, so you can't dismiss my criticism as "Euro-nationalist."

Until you come up with actual examples of the said "America bashing" that's supposedly nationalist your entire point is based on nothing I can see.

Which is exactly what I said earlier on in the OP. Did you by any chance flunk reading comprehension in High School?

I know you said it. Did you miss the point where YOU DID THAT? You know, made an argument out of anecdotes? That was why I said it. Jesus.

No, I didn't flunk reading comprehension. I don't think I had a "Reading Comprehension" class in High School. I had your standard AP English courses, and I never flunked any of those. Maybe you can stuff the ad hominems back where they came from?

EDIT: Once more, for clarity. This is not some nationalistic defense of America. It is an attack on human nature. My point is we are all the fucking same no matter where we live.

And it just so happens that this "attack on human nature," viz a viz "America is no worse than any other nation," IS the same argument dumbasses like to make in defense of US atrocities and behavior. After all, if the US is not ANY worse than ANY other nation, whats the point in criticizing it and not those others? I mean, why am I unfairly criticizing the US, when we all know that Portugal is just as bad?

It isn't, that's why. Humans are not all the same either. For example, you and me. I can make a reasoned argument and you can't. Difference! Nations are not all the same. Iceland's never nuked anyone.

All you have is the conjecture that, hypothetically, IF Iceland were in the United States' position, Iceland would THEN do the same horrible, horrible things.

And that's worthy of criticism because it implies a lack of responsibility and even free will. It dismisses US atrocities since hey, we literally can't help ourselves, it's just a result of being "top dog," no more. Might as well say that the Nazis couldn't help themselves, they're just victims of historical circumstance. That's how offensively stupid the concept is.

So perhaps you didn't MEAN to make a nationalistic defense of the United States. But then I didn't MEAN to spend quite so much time bothering to refute your inane arguments either. It just happens that you did, and so it just so happens that I did.

Now instead of ungraciously continuing to attack people for being reasonable, why don't you just admit that hey, your post wasn't perfect, support for your points was lacking and your arguments were flawed.

See, this is what I mean. You have no examples. They are imaginary strawmen puppets. The teeming hordes of invisible, very silent America-hatin' Europeans.

I must say that this is not an issue of the whole of Europe hating Americans, you're right in what you post. Some Europeans, in their personal character, may feel an intense dislike towards Americans. Once again, hate is such a strong word, and I think KoL used it a bit erroneously. But there are, under no circumstance, huge and agry hordes of "American hating" Europeans. Mostly, Americans, with some exceptions, can be pretty decent.

also europeans hate us because they're jealous of our SUVs and fast food

Actually, it's not just the Europeans having a negative opinion of America: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6288933.stm
I think this quote from the article is quite telling: "Comparable surveys suggest that there is still strong support around the world for the values enshrined in US society. But it looks as though America itself is seen to be living up to those values less and less. "

Personally, I consider world opinion should be irrelevant when one considers the course a nation should take, unless of course you're into that whole no sovereignty, toe the line, world police thing.

I think an interesting experiment for the USA to take would be to take a term or two and redeploy all of our military, financial, and political assets back to those places that want our participation and engage in a sit on our hands policy unless directly acted upon. The world sees the USA in a bad light? Fine, play the world game without the USA. We'll call back in four to eight years.

What would happen?

You can't say that every nation acts like the United States, because it doesn't. And frankly, human beings aren't all the same either.



I'm looking above, and all I see is your stupid-ass "they weren't really America's fault" disavowal. "European holdovers." I also see my argument shredding that one apart. And you ignoring that completely.

You can pretend I'm just a big meanie trying to 'paint' you as 'hateful' all you like. What I am doing is ripping apart your arguments. What you are doing is spitting out fallacies. (For example, the above is a strawman that attempts to dismiss my entire argument by ignoring it completely.)



Ah, of course. Just insert a random 1984 reference, that'll make it all better.



No, I didn't miss the point. I got your point. I merely pointed out three examples of how stupid it was.



That's a huge thread. I am not going to pour through the entire thing looking for ways to support YOUR argument. If your search function isn't working and you can't find a single one out of the 'many' examples to support your points, that's simply a tragic failure on your part.



That in no way addresses the issue of what the fuck a "Euro-nationalist clusterfuck" is, or how one determines whether a thread has become that. Let's face it, that's just insulting nonsense and not a real argument.



You don't have to, for it to be a generalization.



....who are....?

See, this is what I mean. You have no examples. They are imaginary strawmen puppets. The teeming hordes of invisible, very silent America-hatin' Europeans.



Indeed it isn't. ;)



You invalidated your own points. I merely pointed it out. Your "feelings" are not evidence. I'm not exactly alone here.

If what I say is "tripe," by all means, point out how. Be specific. Or is it easier to have me come up with elaborate rebuttals that you just shrug and dismiss? Kind of a power trip, to have me putting real effort into reading AND writing, and you can just blurt out some word like "tripe" and that's supposed to be an argument?



Ooh, goalpost changing. Iceland doesn't need to be a "major player in world affairs."

You said - and I quote - "It [the United States] is no better or worse then any other nation on the globe."

Now it's your job to show me how Iceland is just as bad as the United States. Otherwise, your first statement is wrong. It's that simple.



In my case specifically, eh? OK, so you will have no problem demonstrating just what propaganda it is I am supposed to be deluded by. Or is that too much effort and thought for you, too.



Other nations DO have the might to use nuclear weapons on civilians. No other nation has. Now you're trying to paint me as an "America hater," which is pretty amusing. I don't hate America, but I do despise stupidity, and boy you're getting pretty despicable here.



No, "history" doesn't agree with you: the United States is responsible for its actions. It is not helpless. The people at Gitmo are not helpless. They are not victims of being :top dog:

To say otherwise is fucking disgusting, unreasonable, and certainly NOT supported by "history."



I don't think you have the slightest clue what I believe, nor do I think you care, since you'd much rather assume things about other posters than read what they write.



Right. Like those times Iceland nuked tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

Ooh! Remember when Trinidad and Tobago lied about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction as an excuse to invade the country, overthrow the government and occupy key oil centers all in the name of liberating the people?

Yeah me neither. Because, again, you're fucking wrong.



Right, well I'm American, so you can't dismiss my criticism as "Euro-nationalist."

Until you come up with actual examples of the said "America bashing" that's supposedly nationalist your entire point is based on nothing I can see.



I know you said it. Did you miss the point where YOU DID THAT? You know, made an argument out of anecdotes? That was why I said it. Jesus.

No, I didn't flunk reading comprehension. I don't think I had a "Reading Comprehension" class in High School. I had your standard AP English courses, and I never flunked any of those. Maybe you can stuff the ad hominems back where they came from?



And it just so happens that this "attack on human nature," viz a viz "America is no worse than any other nation," IS the same argument dumbasses like to make in defense of US atrocities and behavior. After all, if the US is not ANY worse than ANY other nation, whats the point in criticizing it and not those others? I mean, why am I unfairly criticizing the US, when we all know that Portugal is just as bad?

It isn't, that's why. Humans are not all the same either. For example, you and me. I can make a reasoned argument and you can't. Difference! Nations are not all the same. Iceland's never nuked anyone.

All you have is the conjecture that, hypothetically, IF Iceland were in the United States' position, Iceland would THEN do the same horrible, horrible things.

And that's worthy of criticism because it implies a lack of responsibility and even free will. It dismisses US atrocities since hey, we literally can't help ourselves, it's just a result of being "top dog," no more. Might as well say that the Nazis couldn't help themselves, they're just victims of historical circumstance. That's how offensively stupid the concept is.

So perhaps you didn't MEAN to make a nationalistic defense of the United States. But then I didn't MEAN to spend quite so much time bothering to refute your inane arguments either. It just happens that you did, and so it just so happens that I did.

Now instead of ungraciously continuing to attack people for being reasonable, why don't you just admit that hey, your post wasn't perfect, support for your points was lacking and your arguments were flawed.

See, I COULD continue to argue with you. But that would be a complete waste of breath, because Ive seen you on this forum, and your debating style is ignoring the other's actual points in favor of easier strawman targets, throwing around accusations of prejudice and accusing your opponent's every sentence of generalizations, and in general just plugging your ears and yelling "LALALALA CANT HEAR YOU!!!!" all the while blatantly flame baiting.

I seem to have hurt certian member's feelings by calling them on BS, and I guess its easier to make strawmen and pretend like Im saying "Teh US is teh bestz and u r all worse so stop hurtin our feelingz!!!1!11!" Apperantly its tough to admit that while the US governmet is indeed a nasty bully, its not because they just happen to be American. Apperantly its much easier to demonize a group of people rather then just admit that all humans are evil and capable of acts of depravity. If thats the case, be my guest and just continue to tell yourself that the only reason the US government is vile is because its made up of Americans, who are inherantly evil.

ps- No, Im not going to name specific names on who Im refering to in my OP in regards to nationalist comments, because that would just start petting arguements and devolve into a flame war.


So in essence, what Im saying is Im summing up my response to this in one emote: :rolleyes:

Personally, I consider world opinion should be irrelevant when one considers the course a nation should take, unless of course you're into that whole no sovereignty, toe the line, world police thing.

I think an interesting experiment for the USA to take would be to take a term or two and redeploy all of our military, financial, and political assets back to those places that want our participation and engage in a sit on our hands policy unless directly acted upon. The world sees the USA in a bad light? Fine, play the world game without the USA. We'll call back in four to eight years.

What would happen?

First of all it wouldn't. You're assuming that the US can exist perfectly fine without the rest of the world. That is very, very erronous.

First of all it wouldn't. You're assuming that the US can exist perfectly fine without the rest of the world. That is very, very erronous.

We did for years before now...

Personally, I consider world opinion should be irrelevant when one considers the course a nation should take, unless of course you're into that whole no sovereignty, toe the line, world police thing.

I think an interesting experiment for the USA to take would be to take a term or two and redeploy all of our military, financial, and political assets back to those places that want our participation and engage in a sit on our hands policy unless directly acted upon. The world sees the USA in a bad light? Fine, play the world game without the USA. We'll call back in four to eight years.

What would happen?


Mmmm...a purrrrrfect world?:p

We did for years before now...

When specifically? :confused:

When specifically? :confused:

For a period of time before WWI we tried to be isolationists.


Regardless, the poster did say we'd stop trading and such with the world. He just said that we wont help anyone out or put troops anywhere where we arent wanted.

You mean between the war with Spain and the WWI?

For a period of time before WWI we tried to be isolationists.


Regardless, the poster did say we'd stop trading and such with the world. He just said that we wont help anyone out or put troops anywhere where we arent wanted.

I don't know how hard it tried, but I know you it failed terribly as the US found the urge to intervene internationally irresistable.

World War One for the US began in 1917. The US-Spanish War was 1898 and the Boxer Intervention in China was 1900. The Panama Canal was built in 1902. I can't think of any major American foreign policy initiatives off the top of my head right now but you mean to say between 1902 and 1917 the US was suddenly isolationist for 15 years?

I don't know how hard it tried, but I know you it failed terribly as the US found the urge to intervene internationally irresistable.

World War One for the US began in 1917. The US-Spanish War was 1898 and the Boxer Intervention in China was 1900. The Panama Canal was built in 1902. I can't think of any major American foreign policy initiatives off the top of my head right now but you mean to say between 1902 and 1917 the US was suddenly isolationist for 15 years?

That was the plan until we got dragged into WWI. War with Spain and all the other ones you menitioned was just the US trying to show it could paly with the big boys.

Also after WWI we tried to be isolaionists again, hence our not joining of the League of Nations (among other reasons), but then WWII happened.

That was the plan until we got dragged into WWI. War with Spain and all the other ones you menitioned was just the US trying to show it could paly with the big boys.

Also after WWI we tried to be isolaionists again, hence our not joining of the League of Nations (among other reasons), but then WWII happened.

You still haven't explained the origins of isolationism, or pinpoint a date or event in which the US government says enough is enough and we're disengaging.

I.e. it is impossible for the US, no matter how much you purport to "want", to disengage from the world.

And even during the interwar period, you've got the Dawson's Plan, the Washington Conference, the Kellogg-Briand Pact...all to uphold your "isolationism".

You still haven't explained the origins of isolationism, or pinpoint a date or event in which the US government says enough is enough and we're disengaging.

I.e. it is impossible for the US, no matter how much you purport to "want", to disengage from the world.

And even during the interwar period, you've got the Dawson's Plan, the Washington Conference, the Kellogg-Briand Pact...all to uphold your "isolationism".

I think we are talking about different things here in regards to "impossible".

It certianly is possible to no longer interfere poltically and militarialy where we arent wanted. Thats what I am saying.

Now, are you saying "impossible" as in the US gov would never want to? Because thats different. Im arguing from the literal definition of impossible.

Yes, it is possible...

The USA doesnt WANTS to... and mainly because that would mean a huge lose of power, money and face.

like many times before, the US said one thing...and did a completely different one... whats surprising about that? everybody does it!

I think we are talking about different things here in regards to "impossible".

It certianly is possible to no longer interfere poltically and militarialy where we arent wanted. Thats what I am saying.

Now, are you saying "impossible" as in the US gov would never want to? Because thats different. Im arguing from the literal definition of impossible.

Okay. I rephrase. "It is impossible for the US to both want to and actually disengage from the world".

And if we're now talking about "specific regions" in the world please tell me.

Okay. I rephrase. "It is impossible for the US to both want to and actually disengage from the world".

Again I disagree. While our government does not seem willing at all to disengage, it is indeed possible for them to do so.

Again I disagree. While our government does not seem willing at all to disengage, it is indeed possible for them to do so.

Yes...its possible... same as the US deciding to return California to Mexico. Its possible.... no one in his sane mind would do it... but its possible.

[QUOTE=Knights of Liberty;13714696]Again I disagree. While our government does not seem willing at all to disengage, it is indeed possible for them to do so.

It isn't. It's not in your nature. And it's neither politically or practically possible to do. You can perhaps, for a while, a very short while, if you uprooted democracy and capitalism. But then an undemocratic or non-capitalist America isn't really America, is it?

The nature of the US dictates that it will want to, and it will continue to engage the world.

It isn't. It's not in your nature. And it's neither politically or practically possible to do. You can perhaps, for a while, a very short while, if you uprooted democracy and capitalism. But then an undemocratic or non-capitalist America isn't really America, is it?

The nature of the US dictates that it will want to, and it will continue to engage the world.


Without getting to heavily into philosophy and such, it is indeed possible to go against one's nature.

Ok...let me get the train back on tracks...

Its possible


Its not going to happen

It has never happened before.

Next...

Without getting to heavily into philosophy and such, it is indeed possible to go against one's nature.

I think let's settle on Santiago I's conclusion...:p

I don't know how hard it tried, but I know you it failed terribly as the US found the urge to intervene internationally irresistable.

World War One for the US began in 1917. The US-Spanish War was 1898 and the Boxer Intervention in China was 1900. The Panama Canal was built in 1902. I can't think of any major American foreign policy initiatives off the top of my head right now but you mean to say between 1902 and 1917 the US was suddenly isolationist for 15 years?

Taft and Wilson were both Idealist presidents.

Though I don't think Isolationist is the correct term for Taft.
He Did usurper Teddy Roosevelt because he felt Teddy tended to use the military too much. Taft's foreign policy was to encourage investment by American companies in Asia and Latin America.
Wilson did intervene in Mexican civil war but that was for two reason largely.
1. To stop outside powers from arming one side or the other in the Mexico civil war.
or
2. Go chase after Pancho Via after he shoot up an American town.

Wilson was interesting. his 14 points are very idealistic. He believed in Free trade, however he backed off from encouraging investment in Asia and Latin American. This has been suggest is tied to his personal racism.
The sudden departure American investment in China is often believed to be one of the causes of the failure of Sūn Yìxiān's interim goverment.

I wouldn't call either Isolationist though since they believed in trade and international investment.

China does appear to be on it's way to the top. What with the American dollar on the decline and Chineese investments increasing in value.
To be honest with you, I'm a mamber of american military, and from my experience, a certain degree of nationalism is healthy for any country. Be proud of where you're from, but by the same token, nievety never looks good.

China does appear to be on it's way to the top. What with the American dollar on the decline and Chineese investments increasing in value.
To be honest with you, I'm a mamber of american military, and from my experience, a certain degree of nationalism is healthy for any country. Be proud of where you're from, but by the same token, nievety never looks good.

Long term growth is questionable. the population pyramid is becoming a mushroom, which is a real problem when the majority of the work force retires in 20 years. I think India seems to be the one sneaking into things.

My knowledge of US history is a bit sketchy... Wasnt there something called the Monroe doctrine that applied during their isolationist phase?
Something alone the lines of we are being isolationist - just dont interfere in our affairs - and our affairs are everything in the Americas.

My knowledge of US history is a bit sketchy... Wasnt there something called the Monroe doctrine that applied during their isolationist phase?
Something alone the lines of we are being isolationist - just dont interfere in our affairs - and our affairs are everything in the Americas.

since the Monroe doctrine The US has viewed the western hemisphere as their personal sphere of influence.

since the Monroe doctrine The US has viewed the western hemisphere as their personal sphere of influence.

The western AND the eastern.

The western AND the eastern.

the eastern hemisphere was still Europe's until WWII with the exception of the Philippines.

the eastern hemisphere was still Europe's until WWII with the exception of the Philippines.

Well you said since, so I thought that meant up to today.

Well you said since, so I thought that meant up to today.

yes the world is the US's sphere of influence since the down fall of the USSR.

See, I COULD continue to argue with you. But that would be a complete waste of breath

Concession ... accepted.

because Ive seen you on this forum, and your debating style is ignoring the other's actual points in favor of easier strawman targets, throwing around accusations of prejudice and accusing your opponent's every sentence of generalizations, and in general just plugging your ears and yelling "LALALALA CANT HEAR YOU!!!!" all the while blatantly flame baiting.

My last two posts are blatantly not as you've just described.

Talk about strawman.

I seem to have hurt certian member's feelings by calling them on BS, and I guess its easier to make strawmen and pretend like Im saying "Teh US is teh bestz and u r all worse so stop hurtin our feelingz!!!1!11!" Apperantly its tough to admit that while the US governmet is indeed a nasty bully, its not because they just happen to be American. Apperantly its much easier to demonize a group of people rather then just admit that all humans are evil and capable of acts of depravity.

You show you haven't read or understood what I've written. I've never "demonized a people," my "feelings" aren't hurt, and I'm not pretending you're saying anything you aren't.

I am disagreeing with your premise that "the US is no better or worse than any other nation on the globe."

I also disagree with your premise that "all humans are evil," but whatever. I guess you're too good, too superior to support THAT point either.

If thats the case, be my guest and just continue to tell yourself that the only reason the US government is vile is because its made up of Americans, who are inherantly evil.

...talk about strawmen... you haven't read a single thing I've written.

How disappointing. I could have just copied and pasted stereo instructions and it wouldn't have made a difference to you.


So in essence, what Im saying is Im summing up my response to this in one emote: :rolleyes:

How compelling.

Grow the fuck up.

People hate us for the same reason they hated England when it was a world-wide empire, that they hated Rome when they were an empire, that they hated any all-encompassing, imperial, powerful nation - because we have what they want or what they once had and lost. Some day we will lose it and have our turn at hating another all encompassing, imperial, powerful nation that has what we want or what we once had and lost. It's a cycle, get over it.No. The US is hated because it constantly shoves its high moral values down everyone's throats while not living up to them in the least. It is the shallowness, affectation, and hypocrisy that defines the US that is hated.

No. The US is hated because it constantly shoves its high moral values down everyone's throats while not living up to them in the least. It is the shallowness, affectation, and hypocrisy that defines the US that is hated.

What moral values?

since the Monroe doctrine The US has viewed the western hemisphere as their personal sphere of influence.

When did Marilyn formulate this idea?

When did Marilyn formulate this idea?

What what what?! When did this turn to a Monroe thingy? What Marylin doctrine? I´m soooooo lost as of now...

When did Marilyn formulate this idea?

What what what?! When did this turn to a Monroe thingy? What Marylin doctrine? I´m soooooo lost as of now...

No no no.

The Monroe doctrine came into being in 1823 and basically it told Europe to stay out of the Americas.

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_doctrine

No no no.

The Monroe doctrine came into being in 1823 and basically it told Europe to stay out of the Americas.

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_doctrine

Lies, all lies

No no no.

The Monroe doctrine came into being in 1823 and basically it told Europe to stay out of the Americas.

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_doctrine

Ah, President Monroe. If I sounded like a dufus, I´m sorry. American history isn´t my forte and the mention of Marylin Monroe and a doctrine threw me off.

When did Marilyn formulate this idea?

Wrong Monroe as already stated.

though Marilyn did have an IQ over 140.

Ah, President Monroe. If I sounded like a dufus, I´m sorry. American history isn´t my forte and the mention of Marylin Monroe and a doctrine threw me off.

It's fine. It wasn't much of a doctrine, anyway, until the U.S. was large enough to enforce it, and that wasn't 1823.

This brings up a question I've had for a while: is the United States the only nation outside of the Vatican to have doctrines? There's the Monroe, but then there's also the Truman, the Nixon, and a bunch of other smaller ones. Is this normal for countries, or does "doctrine" just sound better than, "unofficlal rule the president mentioned in a speech?"

People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome.

:D

People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome.
In other words, we're this guy.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/Dennis_menace.jpg

I wonder who Mr. Wilson is. Latin America? The Middle East?

It's fine. It wasn't much of a doctrine, anyway, until the U.S. was large enough to enforce it, and that wasn't 1823.

This brings up a question I've had for a while: is the United States the only nation outside of the Vatican to have doctrines? There's the Monroe, but then there's also the Truman, the Nixon, and a bunch of other smaller ones. Is this normal for countries, or does "doctrine" just sound better than, "unofficlal rule the president mentioned in a speech?"

In Spain? Not active ones that I know of. Mostly the doctrines we have on archive are from the XVIII and XIX centuries.

No. The US is hated because it constantly shoves its high moral values down everyone's throats while not living up to them in the least. It is the shallowness, affectation, and hypocrisy that defines the US that is hated.

We have moral values? Holy crap! :eek:

Wrong Monroe as already stated.

though Marilyn did have an IQ over 140.

She did have a gorgeous set of hemispheres...

It's fine. It wasn't much of a doctrine, anyway, until the U.S. was large enough to enforce it, and that wasn't 1823.


In the early 19th century the Monroe doctrine was largely enforced by the British, who sought to benefit from free trade with former colonies of other European powers. the US was used as justification.

She did have a gorgeous set of hemispheres...

She was pretty much gorgeous altogether. Why just focus on one aspect? ;)

You like H.P. Lovecraft BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Edgar Allan Poe, Herman Neville, Mark Twain, Ernest Hemingway...top of my mind.

American Literature sucks?... well yeah if you read the New York Times Best Sellers it does...

Um, Lovecraft is one of the best that I can think of. Sure, there's other good American authors. Lots of Sci-fi authors for a start: Heinlein, Asimov, Stephenson (iirc), Gibson (sort of), etc. There's the Freakonomics guys, all sorts of good stuff out there.

But compare it to Oscar Wilde, P.G. Wodehouse, Arthur C Clarke, Tolkein, George Orwell, etc. Sure, there's Ambrose Bierce and Orson Scott Card. But even so, I reckon that the very best literature has not been American.

Also, don't ever mess with Lovecraft.

In other words, we're this guy.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/Dennis_menace.jpg

I wonder who Mr. Wilson is. Latin America? The Middle East?

the mid east always angry and complaining but cant do a thing about it.

Dad is the UN. rarely gets anything done though sometimes a scolding resolution comes out.

Mom is Nafta, in theory something bigger then Us but really just a means of getting what we want.

Margaret is France. more cultured and always trying to improve our manners but with a secret crush on the US. Secretly Hates Gina(Israel)

Joey- the UK loyal friend sometimes we get them stuck in trouble or stuck in a quagmire.

Gina is Israel the Us just loves them for no reason then the Jews look like crazy cowboys on steroids as far as foreign policy goes. Hated by Margaret(France) secretly because the Denis(US) showers them with so much affection.

Your hubris. Stop it, and you'll be liked.

This whole post is one massive, massive strawman replete with references to the school of thought that 'since we're not the worst at something you can't criticise us so much'.

I think that what the OP's point is that the cirticism of America is justified in its origin, but unjustified in its extent. There are things to criticise about America, but the extent to which people labour the point is unreasonable some time

However to give my two pence to the OP, I think that to an extent it comes with the territory of being the last real 'superpower'. Ultimately it is more obvious now than it was, but the fact is that every superpower is subjected to this. I'm not saying its right, I'm just saying that its to be expected.

We have moral values? Holy crap! :eek:

We did, at least, but we've opted for the easy, amoral path since the end of World War II.

I hate the way Americans love to pretend this is the "land of the free," while proudly refusing equal rights under the law to the majority of citizens.

It's the freedom to oppress the Other, duh. :rolleyes:

How cute. Another new poster who thinks that just by naming logical fallacies he looks smart. Youre new here, so I dont expect you to know what the critisims of America are on these boards. So maybe you should stop pretending like you do.



Not really. I talk about what I hear, and then talk about how sometimes its not really fair to make these attacks. My one bit of anectdotal evidence is meant to show how foolish anectdotal evidence is.



Im not really defending America, more attacking nationalism. Again, you didnt seem to have read it. But if you did, you didnt comprehend it.
He/She may appear new with only 7 posts but I have been around a long while also though tend not to post often. There used to be a thing going between a Swede and an American, can't remember the posters although Fass was one.
So what if a post naming logical fallacies makes a guy looks smart?
And whats wrong with nationalism?
Two things that stick in my mind from visits abroad is Denmark and America. They both fly the flag with pride.
You hardly see that in Germany, France, UK, Belgium Finland,Spain, Holland, Blah,blah

I hate the way Americans love to pretend this is the "land of the free," while proudly refusing equal rights under the law to the majority of citizens.

Just to be clear, which majority of American citizens are being oppressed?

I know I'm quoting you days after you posted, sorry.

He/She may appear new with only 7 posts but I have been around a long while also though tend not to post often.

While huge numbers of posts are usually a good indicator of quality, it's not universal. All the same, when an individual has a tiny number of posts, and hasn't even been around for a month, (unlike you, who's been around for years) they hardly match up, and need introduced to the un-niceties of this forum.