NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/may/20/1

A teenager is facing prosecution for using the word "cult" to describe the Church of Scientology.

The unnamed 15-year-old was served the summons by City of London police when he took part in a peaceful demonstration opposite the London headquarters of the controversial religion.

Officers confiscated a placard with the word "cult" on it from the youth, who is under 18, and a case file has been sent to the Crown Prosecution Service.

A date has not yet been set for him to appear in court.

The decision to issue the summons has angered human rights activists and support groups for the victims of cults.

The incident happened during a protest against the Church of Scientology on May 10. Demonstrators from the anti-Scientology group, Anonymous, who were outside the church's £23m headquarters near St Paul's cathedral, were banned by police from describing Scientology as a cult by police because it was "abusive and insulting".

Writing on an anti-Scientology website, the teenager facing court said: "I brought a sign to the May 10th protest that said: 'Scientology is not a religion, it is a dangerous cult.'

"'Within five minutes of arriving I was told by a member of the police that I was not allowed to use that word, and that the final decision would be made by the inspector."

A policewoman later read him section five of the Public Order Act and "strongly advised" him to remove the sign. The section prohibits signs which have representations or words which are threatening, abusive or insulting.

The teenager refused to back down, quoting a 1984 high court ruling from Mr Justice Latey, in which he described the Church of Scientology as a "cult" which was "corrupt, sinister and dangerous".

After the exchange, a policewoman handed him a court summons and removed his sign.

On the website he asks for advice on how to fight the charge: "What's the likelihood I'll need a lawyer? If I do have to get one, it'll have to come out of my pocket money."

Writing on the same website, another anonymous demonstrator said: "We also protested outside another Scientology building in Tottenham Court Road which is policed by a separate force, the Metropolitan police, who have never tried to stop us using the word cult.

"We're completely peaceful protesters expressing a perfectly valid opinion. This whole thing stinks."

Liberty director, Shami Chakrabarti, said: "This barmy prosecution makes a mockery of Britain's free speech traditions.

"After criminalising the use of the word 'cult', perhaps the next step is to ban the words 'war' and 'tax' from peaceful demonstrations?"

Ian Haworth, from the Cult Information Centre which provides advice for victims of cults and their families, said: "This is an extraordinary situation. If it wasn't so serious it would be farcical. The police's job is to protect and serve. Who is being served and who is being protected in this situation? I find it very worrying.

"Scientology is well known to my organisation, and has been of great concern to me for 22 years. I get many calls from families with loved ones involved and ex-members who are in need of one form of help."

The City of London police came under fire two years ago when it emerged that more than 20 officers, ranging from constable to chief superintendent, had accepted gifts worth thousands of pounds from the Church of Scientology.

The City of London Chief Superintendent, Kevin Hurley, praised Scientology for "raising the spiritual wealth of society" during the opening
of its headquarters in 2006.

Last year a video praising Scientology emerged featuring Ken Stewart, another of the City of London's chief superintendents, although he is not a member of the group.

The group was founded by the science-fiction writer L Ron Hubbard in 1952 and espouses the idea that humans are descended from an exiled race of aliens called Thetans.

The church continues to attract controversy over claims that it separates members from their families and indoctrinates followers.

A spokeswoman for the force said today: "City of London police had received complaints about demonstrators using the words 'cult' and 'Scientology kills' during protests against the Church of Scientology.

"Following advice from the Crown Prosecution Service some demonstrators were warned verbally and in writing that their signs breached section five of the Public Order Act.

"One demonstrator continued to display a placard despite police warnings and was reported for an offence under section five. A file on the case will go to the CPS."

A CPS spokesman said no specific advice was given to police regarding the boy's placard.

"In April, prior to this demonstration, as part of our normal working relationship we gave the City of London police general advice on the law around demonstrations and religiously aggravated crime in particular.

"We did not advise on this specific case prior to the summons being issued – which the police can do without reference to us – but if we receive a file we will review it in the normal way according to the code for crown prosecutors."

I think it is shameful that my country's police and prosecutors are abetting the cult of Scientology with this mailicious prosecution. Can anybody give me a good argument as to why Scientology shouldn't be called a cult?

Can anybody give me a good argument as to why Scientology shouldn't be called a cult?I can't give you a good reason why any religious group shouldn't be called a cult; be it catholics, protestants, soennis, sikhs, or whatever.
Well, aside from that they may find it offensive.

Hopefully this won't go very far in the courts.

And kudos to the kid for quoting a high court ruling!

I think it is shameful that my countries police and prosecutors are abetting the cult of Scientology with this mailicious prosecution. Can anybody give me a good argument as to why Scientology shouldn't be called a cult?

Nope, there isn't one. And as the article mentions, it has been officially called one in a court of law.

Although by rights this should get thrown out from any court, the fact it's getting to court at all is disgraceful and is yet another examples of Scientologies far-reaching and malicious influence.

I can't give you a good reason why any religious group shouldn't be called a cult; be it catholics, protestants, soennis, sikhs, or whatever.
Well, aside from that they may find it offensive.

Or for that matter the more rabid followers of Richard Dawkins or the conservative movement . . .

Nope, can't argue with you there. And as far as calling any religion a cult, I think it's the context that determines it.

There are some groups that seek to only accomplish good for the benefit of all mankind, and others . . . yeah. They're cults.

There's always some black sheep in every religion that are the extremists. Not all Muslims are terrorists, and in that same respect, not all Christians are good people with your best interests in mind.

wow the protection of Free speech in Europe never ceases to amaze me.

Nobody has a right not to be insulted, especially when people are determined to be embattled and insulted.

I think it is shameful that my country's police and prosecutors are abetting the cult of Scientology with this mailicious prosecution. Can anybody give me a good argument as to why Scientology shouldn't be called a cult?Because it would make Tom Cruise sad :(

I say to them: Please. You want to believe that an alien god froze souls and transported them here in DC-8's in order to make us have bad feelings, okay. Don't push it in my face, and don't have me arrested when I call you a loon. Because that's what they all are. Fucking loonies.

Because it would make Tom Cruise sad :(

But that can only be a good thing.

I can't give you a good reason why any religious group shouldn't be called a cult; be it catholics, protestants, soennis, sikhs, or whatever.
Well, aside from that they may find it offensive.
But offense is never sufficient cause to prohibit something. Feinberg showed us that.

Plus, I agree; there's no relevant difference between those religions that are popularly described as cults and those that aren't.

But offense is never sufficient cause to prohibit something. Feinberg showed us that.I agree it's not a cause for forbidding it; but it's a reason for an individual not to do it. There's tons of perfectly legal things that I don't do because I don't feel like being a jerk; but it's something people should decide for themselves (unless it gets out of hand and starts to bother me ;)).

The issue isn't "is it right to call it a cult". If it is or isn't a cult doesn't matter. WTF happened to freedom of speech. His sign harms no-one.

Can anybody give me a good argument as to why Scientology shouldn't be called a cult?

Dyslexia?

Poor kid, that's so unfair ! And congrats to him ! Another proof, if needed, than scientology is dangerous...

I wonder what would happen if these protesters turned violent:)

Nobody has a right not to be insulted, especially when people are determined to be embattled and insulted.

I think the clue is in the article, the police mentioned the Public Order Act (!985, I'm assuming), which covers "harrassment, alarm or distress." Which because of a susequent bill (no idea which one) can be when religious or racial language is used.

I'm sure wiki has details, but it isn't playing ball with me :(

anyway. I'm sure the law is being followed.

Not that I agree with it though.

Hopefully this won't go very far in the courts.

And kudos to the kid for quoting a high court ruling!

Yeah, I've been on these protests, and there's a couple of websites with a whole load of quotes available to cover any kind of police problem - Ranging from Human Rights Declarations to miniscule loop holes in the law.

Though as you said, serious kudos to him for actually using the quote. If a Lord Justice declared Scientology a cult, what's wrong with a teenager using it too?

Policewoman should be fired, pl0x.

The issue isn't "is it right to call it a cult". If it is or isn't a cult doesn't matter. WTF happened to freedom of speech. His sign harms no-one.

Presumably it 'distressed' someone though. Hence the use of the hated public order act.

Policewoman should be fired, pl0x.
I doubt she removed the sign and served the chap with a summons of her own accord.

Policewoman should be fired, pl0x.
Why? She didn't cause irreversible harm on behalf of orders.

Not to advocate Scientology, but he already knew, it seems, that the world in question was not allowed in the protest. He was also given, if I counted, three warnings to remove his sign.
If he DIDNT want to end up in this situation, he could've just removed the sign. Since he didnt take his sign down, one can only assume that he was attempting to bring the issue to court or something, which is one way of challenging (in the US, I dunno about the UK) a law you dont like. Get it into court and have a judge slap an unconstitutional lable on it.

So...while I agree that its stupid to ban a word from protests, and that Scientology is dangerous, Im fairly lacking in sympathy for the guy who got himself in trouble for refusing to comply with a law. More power to him, though, if this helps get said law off the books. But I'm not very familiar with the UK legal process, so I've no idea if thats the case at all.

:eek: Then they say Britain is freer...

So...while I agree that its stupid to ban a word from protests, and that Scientology is dangerous, Im fairly lacking in sympathy for the guy who got himself in trouble for refusing to comply with a law.
IIRC, there is no UK law banning the use of the word 'cult' to describe Scientology, it was merely a measure the police enforced.

Moreover, I applaud the young man for refusing to comply with such a ludicrous and illiberal measure.

Ah, Scientology once again destroying others' freedom of speech while vehemently trying to defend their own.

On the upside, the cancer that is killing /b/ has lost another cell.

I doubt she removed the sign and served the chap with a summons of her own accord.

Of course she did. She may not have had a job afterwards, but she did have the option to not remove the sign and serve a summons.

Of course she did. She may not have had a job afterwards, but she did have the option to not remove the sign and serve a summons.
Sure, but I was meaning that this particular officer shouldn't e singled out as the root cause of the problem.

What amazes me is that during the muslim anti cartoon protests a few years ago, some of the protesters were carrying placards with words liable to incite racial hatred and a breach of the peace

The police did f all then until prodded into it by the rest of the population/media/government and proscuted some of the protestors for the aforementioned things

Now someone calls scientology a cult (which it is. see the description by that high court judge) and gets arrested and charged

I hope the kid decides to plead not guilty and defends himself
I can see any magistrate laughing his ass off before throwing the case out*

El-Presidente Boris

*unless the magistrate is a scientologit.... then the kid will be hung, drawn and quartered:eek:

As far as I'm aware the word cult is not officially considered to be threatening, abusive or insulting and therefore the use of the public order act in this case is a gross misrepresentation of what the act is for.

As for the kid, any judge worth their salt will throw this out of court. It would be quite nice if the City of London police were also investigated for corruption as I guarantee the superintendents are still being given "gifts".

This is an outrage. Scientology is a cult - well, either that, or a business.

I can't give you a good reason why any religious group shouldn't be called a cult; be it catholics, protestants, soennis, sikhs, or whatever.
Well, aside from that they may find it offensive.

Indeed, have you ever looked up the definition of the word? I believe it was the second or third definition from dictionary.com that more or less stated any religion, or religious beliefs in general.

"Cult" is such an ambiguous word, that technically, no one should be able to get in trouble for using it. Additionally, it's not like the protesters in this particular case were being violent or anything.

Link (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult). Ok, so it wasn't specifically the second definition, but all in all, still very ambiguous, enough so that one could even stretch it a bit, and call athiesm a cult (in accordance with these definitions).

Yeah, the video of him talking to the police was posted in the Enturbulation forums day-of.

And Scientology is absolutely a dangerous cult. They killed Lisa McPherson, Shawn Lonsdale and many, many more (http://www.whyaretheydead.net/) including L. Ron Hubbard's son Quentin.

I mean, even Scientologists have called LRH out on it: 'In a healthy and growing science, there are many men who are recognised as being competent in the field, and no one man dominates the work…. To the extent Dianetics is dependent on one man, it is a cult. To the extent it is built on many minds and many workers, it is a science.' – John Campbell, Hubbard’s former publicist

And then you have Robinson: 'The government is satisfied… that scientology is socially harmful. It alienates members of families from each other and attributes squalid and disgraceful motives to all who oppose it; its authoritarian principles and practise are a potential menace to the personality and well-being of those so deluded as to become its followers; above all, its methods can be a serious danger to the health of those who submit to them.' – Kenneth Robinson, British Minister of Health in an address to the Parliament of Great Britain on 25 July 1968

And Breckenridge: 'In addition to violating and abusing its own members’ civil rights, the organisation over the years with its “Fair Game doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in the Church whom it perceives as enemies. The organisation clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder LRH. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a pathological liar when it comes to his history, background, and achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or hostile.' – Judge Breckenridge after the case of the Church of Scientology v. Gerald Armstrong, 1982

And a doctor's explanation of auditing, one of the core activities in Scientology: 'Auditing is a simple, thoroughly designed means of concentrating the mind to a state of a controlled trance. The aim and result is progressively to enforce loyalty to, and identification with Scientology to the detriment of one’s natural awareness of divergent ways of thinking and outside cultural influences. Love and allegiance are more and more given to Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard.' – Dr John Gordon Clark

It's a straight-up hateful cult and should be treated as such. They tell malicious lies and claim that non-believers can be 'deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed.' Is that something that a healthy religion does?

Hope to see you all around the world on 14 June.

Then they say Britain is freer...
Freer then where? Iran? :p

Good God, if Scientology is not a cult, what the hell is? It is an organization which brainwashes its members, slanders and frames its critics, infilterated government offices, and has been involved in a number of suspiceous deaths. Not only is it a cult, its the biggest and most dangerous cult around.

This is not prosecution of hate speech, dubious as such laws are. This is the prosecution of legitimate critisism of a criminal organization. This is indeed comparable to outlawing the word war, or taxes in a protest, and such prosecutions could well be the next step if this is allowed to stand.

Good job, Britain. You've just criminalized public critisism, and thus, Democracy.
:upyours::upyours::upyours::(

This is an outrage. Scientology is a cult - well, either that, or a business.

Wrong !!!!


It is both a cult and business.

One can hardly say it is unexpected. It is simply the objective of the sham that is universal tolerance. When everything must be tolerated, and that tolerance is accomplished through legislation, there is no tolerance, as nothing will be tolerated.

Good job, Britain. You've just criminalized public critisism, and thus, Democracy.

It is nice to know the future is self correcting!

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m178/idagirl6000/icons/V%20for%20vendetta/v_fear.jpg

Time to start rewording the protest signs.
'Scientology is a big meanie'
'Scientology would have me arrested if I called them a cult'
'I'm not terribly fond of Scientology'

Silliness.

Wrong !!!!


It is both a cult and business.
Just like every other religion.

Time to start rewording the protest signs.
'Scientology is a big meanie'
'Scientology would have me arrested if I called them a cult'
'I'm not terribly fond of Scientology'

"Scientology: What's all this, then?"

I can't give you a good reason why any religious group shouldn't be called a cult; be it catholics, protestants, soennis, sikhs, or whatever.
Well, aside from that they may find it offensive.

According to Margaret Thaler Singer, not all religions are cults. Just read the first three chapters in her book "Cults in our Midst" and you'll have your answer.

But that can only be a good thing.

But he'll use his OT8 powers to find you and drop a car on your or something.

But he'll use his OT8 powers to find you and drop a car on your or something.

He'd have to stand on box (or possibly a sofa) to do that.

from dictionary.cambridge.org (cult in the meaning of religion)


cult (RELIGION)
1. a religious group, often living together, whose beliefs are considered extreme or strange by many people: "Their son ran away from home and joined a religious cult."

2. a particular system of religious belief: the Hindu cult of Shiva


since meaning 2 can be used, I call BS on New Scotland Yard this time. Btw, they should know that Germany has outlawed Scientology as "verfassungfeindlich" iirc (anticonstitutional); given that the german government represents a lot more people than the population of the UK, I'd say that this qualifies as the "many people" in meaning 1. Does New Scotland Yard want to create a diplomatic querelle with another EU country?

from dictionary.cambridge.org (cult in the meaning of religion)



since meaning 2 can be used, I call BS on New Scotland Yard this time. Btw, they should know that Germany has outlawed Scientology as "verfassungfeindlich" iirc (anticonstitutional); given that the german government represents a lot more people than the population of the UK, I'd say that this qualifies as the "many people" in meaning 1. Does New Scotland Yard want to create a diplomatic querelle with another EU country?

What does New Scotland Yard (as the HQ for the London Metropolitan Police Service) have to do with the City of London Police force??


Bearing in mind that in this case "City of London" has a very precise definition.

This gets a big ol WTF from me... Serving a court summons and taking the sign after a high court ruling has been quoted to you supporting the language used on the sign is a big no-no and a breach of the protestors right to freedom of speech and to peaceful protest...

If It doesn't get laughed out of court, the high court would certainly be happy to overturn the decision.

This gets a big ol WTF from me... Serving a court summons and taking the sign after a high court ruling has been quoted to you supporting the language used on the sign is a big no-no and a breach of the protestors right to freedom of speech and to peaceful protest...

If It doesn't get laughed out of court, the high court would certainly be happy to overturn the decision.

Yeah sue the police!:D

As an update


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7416425.stm
No charges over Scientology demo

Legal action has been dropped against a 15-year-old who faced prosecution for branding Scientology a "cult".

The teenager held up a sign which read, "Scientology is not a religion, it is a dangerous cult", in May outside its headquarters in the City of London.

City of London Police said it had received complaints and warned the teenager to get rid of the sign as it breached the Public Order Act.

Human rights campaigners vowed to take action against the police.

Lawyers for the human rights group Liberty represented the teenager in his legal battle.

James Welch from the organisation said: "The police may have ended their inquiries into this tawdry incident but rest assured that Liberty's inquiry will continue.

"Democracy is all about clashing ideas and the police should protect peaceful protest, not stifle it."

'No offence'

The teenager's mother said the move was "a victory for free speech".

She said: "We're all incredibly proud of him.

"We advised him to take the placard down when we realised what was happening but he said 'No, it's my opinion and I have a right to express it'."

A Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) spokesman said: "In consultation with the City of London Police, we were asked whether the sign was abusive or insulting.

"Our advice is that it is not abusive or insulting and there is no offensiveness (as opposed to criticism), neither in the idea expressed nor in the mode of expression."

A spokeswoman for the City of London Police said: "The CPS review of the case includes advice on what action or behaviour at a demonstration might be considered to be 'threatening, abusive or insulting'.

"The force's policing of future demonstrations will reflect this advice."


Looks like it didn't even need a half way decent judge to throw it out, the Crown Prosectution Service (our version of the DA I think) has made it clear that this is not abuse or hateful and thus perfectly legal protest. And they now have Liberty going after them, methinks Scientology made an error with this one.

I'd say this story is an example of (if I'm being kind) over-zealous policing, if not blatant police corruption more than anything.

Nice. Yeah, COS really doesn't understand how to handle this.

Another victory for freedom of speech.

Thank god the CPS had the sense to turn around and say we don't really have any evidence to support the summons.

I hope Liberty are sucesful and that the IPCC start investigating high ranking officers in the City of London police... with regards to kickbacks from the COS of course

ah.

another Gem from the well-bribed british justice system.

i love my country, i just cant disagree with anyones opinion without being prosecuted!

ace!

someone should put posters showing the word "cult" all over the sc headquarters

Its a bad law but I suppose the court summons was technically legal. Hopefully the law will be overturned.
_____
Upon further reading in the thread it apartly wasn't threatning or abusive. Good.

wow dont we have the freedom of speach whats up world when you cant speek whats on your mind huh .

Its a bad law but I suppose the court summons was technically legal. Hopefully the law will be overturned.
_____
Upon further reading in the thread it apartly wasn't threatning or abusive. Good.

Read the post a few above.. (or the entire thread) before responding. The CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) called bullshit on the City of London police for their use of said act (in the op)

That applies to the poster before you aswell.

Indeed, good show CPS.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/may/20/1



I think it is shameful that my country's police and prosecutors are abetting the cult of Scientology with this mailicious prosecution. Can anybody give me a good argument as to why Scientology shouldn't be called a cult?

They have money.

As an update




Looks like it didn't even need a half way decent judge to throw it out, the Crown Prosectution Service (our version of the DA I think) has made it clear that this is not abuse or hateful and thus perfectly legal protest. And they now have Liberty going after them, methinks Scientology made an error with this one.

I'd say this story is an example of (if I'm being kind) over-zealous policing, if not blatant police corruption more than anything.

Thanks for the update - good to see common sense triumphing. At least I hope it was rather than the cultists realising they were getting some bad publicity.

Ha! suck it censorship.

This is why I'm glad I live in America:
"The section prohibits signs which have representations or words which are threatening, abusive or insulting."

WHAT!!?!?!? That's the whole entire reason for protesting! To threaten, abuse, or insult (usually insult).

A strong central government must be balanced with a strong protesting force.